Althouse: "Much like women getting breast implants, South Koreans getting eyelid surgery, or bodybuilders taking steroids, the posters on incel forums seem at first to be motivated by..."

June 3, 2019

"Much like women getting breast implants, South Koreans getting eyelid surgery, or bodybuilders taking steroids, the posters on incel forums seem at first to be motivated by..."

"... the undeniably relatable desire to look better — and therefore be treated better. Natalie Wynn is an academic turned 'one of YouTube’s leading B-list transsexuals' (her words). On her YouTube channel, ContraPoints, she comments on far-right internet culture while sipping wine and sporting 18th-century cosplay. Her most popular video is on incels, and she grants the group more sympathy than you’d expect. 'I’m just as obsessed with bones as the goddamn incels,' she says at one point, noting that she’s about to pay 'luxury-car amounts of money' for facial-feminization surgery. Some transgender people are against that surgery, she tells me by phone, because 'they think we’re trying to pass and look cis, which is only a thing that we’d want to do in a really transphobic society.'... Unlike transgender people who pursue surgery, of course, incels tend to be perpetrators, rather than targets, of violence and discrimination. Still, the positions of some incels I talked to echoed Wynn’s analysis. PostSingularityVirgin, a 21-year-old Canadian, started reading incel forums when he was 17. Soon after, he dropped out of college to save up for cosmetic surgery, which he has yet to get. He believes people like him are the future; in the next century, cosmetic surgery will be widespread and affordable to everyone, he tells me. 'I feel like inequality in humans is like the greatest source of misery,' he says. 'Wealth inequality, how you’re treated because of the way you look. A lot of those things are being eliminated by technology.'"

From "How Many Bones Would You Break to Get Laid? 'Incels' are going under the knife to reshape their faces, and their dating prospects" (New York Magazine). This is a long article, with much more going on in it than I thought there would be when I looked at that headline. (If the headline makes you wonder why is it okay to be incelphobic when it's not okay to be transphobic, you need to get past the headline and read the article.)

119 comments:

tim maguire said...: incels tend to be perpetrators, rather than targets

Citation, please.; 6/3/19, 9:14 AM
traditionalguy said...: Orthodontists Uber Alles. Spend the money on the teeth. They last the longest.; 6/3/19, 9:14 AM
Anne in Rockwall, TX said...: I read this last Friday and found it chilling. The attitude of these "boys" is that they should be seen as attractive by every hot woman from porn star to head cheerleader.

The fact that they are not seen that way drives them to some really nasty thought-processes.

The views of many of these basement boys is very, very frightening. At this point, their behavior from these views has focused on making them good looking through extensive surgery, but if I am not mistaken, at least one of these types became a shooter.

The self-involvement, narcissism, anger, and rage are a dangerous mix. Social media just increases all of it.

Creepy.; 6/3/19, 9:16 AM
Seeing Red said...: Who is paying for all this?; 6/3/19, 9:26 AM
Nonapod said...: I find all the attention that incels get much more interesting than the incels themselves. I suspect the incel community is very small. I'd be surprised if there were more than a couple thousand of them. Why does such a tiny community warrant so much scrutiny? Could it be because they fullfill a role so well, the omega male?; 6/3/19, 9:26 AM
William said...: You should see the hubristic problems that are the lot of the good looking and poised.; 6/3/19, 9:29 AM
Gahrie said...: The attitude of these "girls" is that they should be seen as attractive by every popular or successful man from thug to quarterback.

The fact that they are not seen that way drives them to some really nasty thought-processes.

The views of many of these mean girls is very, very frightening. At this point, their behavior from these views has focused on making them good looking through extensive surgery, but if I am not mistaken, at least one of these types became a hoaxer.

The self-involvement, narcissism, anger, and rage are a dangerous mix. Social media just increases all of it.

Creepy.; 6/3/19, 9:30 AM
Fernandinande said...: 'one of YouTube’s leading B-list transsexuals'

LOL.

I'm probably one of YouTube's leading B-list posters of tennis matches and cooking shows played backwards with normal audio. (one each).; 6/3/19, 9:31 AM
Mattman26 said...: The reality that some people will get a lot more "action" than others based on looks (and perhaps charm, or money) is nothing new. There were even depressing songs written about it. (I'm thinking Janis Ian's "At 17".)

What seems to have changed is the reaction to it. I think Annie C at 9:16 is as close to a diagnosis for that as I can get; it is disturbing.; 6/3/19, 9:31 AM
William said...: I hope they straighten out all this inequality due to looks and wealth. Then they can move onto height. Tall people have too many advantages.; 6/3/19, 9:33 AM
rhhardin said...: I lose track once the pronouns disengage from biological sex. Is this a guy pretending to be a girl or vice versa. Can't tell so don't care about any of it.; 6/3/19, 9:37 AM
William said...: Longevity is another source of friction. Everyone should have an expiration date of sixty years.; 6/3/19, 9:38 AM
tim maguire said...: I'm going through the article now and most of these people in the pictures look just fine, at least 1 before is better than the after. But Eppley, who doesn't want to judge, will happily cut all of them. He's a bit of a monster.; 6/3/19, 9:39 AM
tim maguire said...: Annie C. said...
I read this last Friday and found it chilling. The attitude of these "boys" is that they should be seen as attractive by every hot woman from porn star to head cheerleader.

The fact that they are not seen that way drives them to some really nasty thought-processes.

The views of many of these basement boys is very, very frightening

They are sad people who would never think of dating a woman in their own league and blame women rather than do the hard work of becoming better people (from everything I've seen, their idea of self--improvement is going to the gym or getting surgery, it's never about improving their attitude). But nearly all of them are harm no one bu themselves--sad people who choose to live sad lives. They are not the mass movement of dangerous people the media wants to pretend they are every time one of them lashes out (which I think has happened twice).; 6/3/19, 9:46 AM
Jaq said...: incels tend to be perpetrators, rather than targets, of violence and discrimination.

Is there any evidence of this offered?; 6/3/19, 9:49 AM
Anne in Rockwall, TX said...: Gahrie, you are exactly right! What the "girls" do to other girls in their own narcissistic insanity is just as chilling.; 6/3/19, 9:49 AM
Jaq said...: Islam solves these problems with sexual socialism. Deny women the power of their looks by wrapping them in a burkha or whatever.; 6/3/19, 9:51 AM
Jaq said...: Harrison Bergeron. I always assumed that Vonnegut wrote that story ironically, but reading his later works, and hearing him speak makes me think maybe he was serious.; 6/3/19, 9:53 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Unlike transgender people who pursue surgery, of course, incels tend to be perpetrators, rather than targets, of violence and discrimination.

Interesting--any kind of a citation for that assertion, that "incels" are more frequently the perpetrators of violence and discrimination than are "transgenders?" Or do we just know that to be true, self-evidently? I'm pretty sure the incel argument is that they're discriminated against for their lack of looks and social status (thus the desire for looks-enhancing plastic surgery), so did the author/person making that assumption do anything to confirm or deny that belief? Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but should a good objective journalist assume one way or the other?

If your mother says she loves you, check it out. But if a group you don't like is under discussion it's fine to assume whatever bad things about them you like. Journalism!; 6/3/19, 9:54 AM
Jaq said...: but if I am not mistaken, at least one of these types became a shooter.

So they are like Rachael Maddow fans then.; 6/3/19, 9:55 AM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: "incels tend to be perpetrators, rather than targets, of violence and discrimination"

Incels get less respect than rapists.; 6/3/19, 9:56 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Citation, please.""Is there any evidence of this offered?"

It's easy to go to the link and find the part of the article I quoted and read on. There is more, and one reason I didn't quote it is that the "authority" is someone I once had a bad experience criticizing.; 6/3/19, 9:56 AM
Jaq said...: "Or do we just know that to be true, self-evidently?”

It’s quite possibly true! Even *clearly* true.; 6/3/19, 9:57 AM
Jaq said...: There is more, and one reason I didn't quote it is that the "authority" is someone I once had a bad experience criticizing.

That’s actually disturbing.; 6/3/19, 9:58 AM
Nancy said...: Ann wrote:
you need to get past the headline and read the article.
Not if it's behind a paywall. 8-( I'd love it if you'd include longer excerpts in these cases.; 6/3/19, 10:00 AM
J. Farmer said...: Aren't incels just the new Dungeons & Dragons players?; 6/3/19, 10:01 AM
buwaya said...: Its mostly in their heads. I suspect a lot are autism-spectrum cases.
These are prone to obsessions.

Best advice I have for those fellows, assuming they are reasonably sane, is to learn to dance.

The tango is excellent.; 6/3/19, 10:04 AM
Mr Wibble said...: J. Farmer said...
Aren't incels just the new Dungeons & Dragons players?

Nah, the D&D players are all in their middle age with wives and kids.

I knew a girl who played and pushed to get more women into gaming because if you could get the wives interested, they wouldn't complain about their husbands' weekly games.; 6/3/19, 10:05 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Annie C. said...
I read this last Friday and found it chilling. The attitude of these "boys" is that they should be seen as attractive by every hot woman from porn star to head cheerleader.

The fact that they are not seen that way drives them to some really nasty thought-processes.

Creepy.

It's funny to me what kind of disordered thinking inspires compassion and what kind inspires disgust and hatred. A person can be full on crazy, schizophrenic, etc and a danger to themselves and others and a large portion of people will still insist that we treat that person with a maximum of deference, respect for their crazy beliefs, and so on. Whole interests groups now exist to push, on pain of social stigma and in some cases force of law, the idea that a person who identifies as a different gender (or species!) IS, in fact, a member of that group, and instead of being offended at this use of force to promote delusions a large majority of the nice centrists people cheer it.
BUT when it comes to a group like incels their delusions and mental health problems are sneered at and mocked. They're basement dwelling scum. If a transgender prisoner wants to take hormones to continue their "transition" I, as a citizen, and required to help pay for it. If an incel wants to undergo plastic surgery to improve their looks in an effort to raise their social status (and access to women/sex) I, as a citizen, am supposed to mock that action and spit at the thought process behind it.

Compassion for sufferers of mental health disorders is inequitably distributed in notable ways.; 6/3/19, 10:05 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: This whole movement incels/plastic surgery/animus to women,hating the world for perceived failure to provide perfection and self loathing etc etc. is sad and sick.

For people who have functional deformities or really severe physical issues, surgery can help. For people who have mental problems, no amount of surgery alone is going to solve their problems. They need to improve their personalities.

This quote struck me as being a big part of their psychological problem Camus, who said that life has no great meaning.

This is true for the majority of the world. Life has no GREAT meaning. Life consists of many small meaningful moments that eventually add up to a life well spent. Life well lived.

You may not have that GREAT meaning or GREAT impact on life in general. Never be remembered in history or become famous. That doesn't mean you don't have meaning or impact. Everything you do has meaning. It just may not be that GREAT moment.

These people are in need of help. Surgery isn't it.; 6/3/19, 10:07 AM
stevew said...: Envy, the deadliest of the deadly sins.; 6/3/19, 10:07 AM
Mr Wibble said...: Best advice I have for those fellows, assuming they are reasonably sane, is to learn to dance.

The tango is excellent.

Not really. Most tango communities are small and skew older. Salsa and swing dancing are a younger crowd and more accessible. Blues dancing is very fun.; 6/3/19, 10:09 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: But breast implants and gender affirmation don’t reinforce patients’ hatred of other groups of people, as incel’s procedures might, I point out

See, when women get breast implants or plastic surgery to improve their social value that's fine (although possibly problematic from a 1st wave feminist POV), but when incels do the same thing it's bad because making themselves more attractive reinforces incel's hatred of women.

An ugly woman getting plastic surgery to look better is one thing, but an ugly incel getting plastic surgery to look better is downright dangerous!; 6/3/19, 10:10 AM
wwww said...: Some people think that changing their looks is going to change their level of happiness and enlarge their social circle. It might work for some, but, in general, it's more effective to change everyday habits, decisions, and attitude.; 6/3/19, 10:13 AM
Automatic_Wing said...: These people are in need of help. Surgery isn't it.

Indeed, the same could be said of transsexuals.; 6/3/19, 10:14 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: By the way the Truth4lie guy's case sounds more like body dysmorphia than anything else. Again, if he was an anorexic woman killing herself due to a mental instability that wouldn't reconcile how she actually looks with how she thinks she looks (and obsessing over that) we'd feel bad for her, wear a ribbon, and raise money with a fun run, but since he's a guy and says the root of his disorder is/was buying into an ideology we dislike he's an object of scorn and derision. Neat.; 6/3/19, 10:15 AM
Fernandinande said...: incels tend to be perpetrators, rather than targets, of violence and discrimination.

Is there any evidence of this offered?

Of course not, just other assertions about naughty men, but, funnily enough, the article serves as an example of what they claim isn't true.; 6/3/19, 10:16 AM
buwaya said...: Way more women want to tango than there are men willing to accomodate them.
But thats my impression.

You are right, swing skews much younger, my daughter is mildly obsessive about swing dancing, but there seems to be no shortage of young-ish men in that, that I have seen.; 6/3/19, 10:18 AM
Leland said...: Problems of the truly privileged.; 6/3/19, 10:21 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Not if it's behind a paywall. 8-( I'd love it if you'd include longer excerpts in these cases."

It wasn't behind a paywall for me. NY Mag gives you some free views per month. If you've exceeded that, try opening a "private window" in your browser and trying again.

I don't believe in taking too much. There's a concept of "fair use" in copyright law, and I believe I'm staying within it.; 6/3/19, 10:23 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: An ugly woman getting plastic surgery to look better is one thing, but an ugly incel getting plastic surgery to look better is downright dangerous!

Depending on the physical reasons for both surgeries and the psychological expectations of the results of the surgeries, it can be good or bad. Personally, I think that people look better with their own individual quirks and some imperfections.

If you expect that your bigger boobs, smaller pert nose, enlarged pecs or jaw widening is suddenly going to change the fundamental you into some sort of sex magnet goddess or a "Chad, which will guarantee you immediate success, love and money..... you are not dealing with reality.

The totality of who you are is more than the surface of how you look. Your personality in the long run is more important.

TRUE...that people judge you first by how you look. Unfair? Yes. Reality? Yes again. There is nothing wrong with trying to fix anything that is a severe deformity or a functional issue. I've seen many before and after photos of people who looked ok, good or even great who turned into caricatures of themselves. (Melanie Griffith, Cher, Mickey Rourke!) Fine tuning (ala Michael Jackson) your face and form when the only person obsessed with it is you....is not going to solve your total issue.

Unrealistic expectations is at the root of this problem.; 6/3/19, 10:24 AM
Jaq said...: I didn’t see any evidence, BTW, just a citation of somebody’s opinion with no link. Does this count as frankly bad writing that’s disguised as quality writing?

Anyway, "Seeing women taking care of their sons is the only situation in which I don’t hate them,”

Mommy issues. I would bet that the number of incels correlates pretty highly with the number of mothers who simply neglected their sons.

As for the fact that, undeniably, women rate only 20% of men as more attractive than average based on a photo, well, act in a way that women find attractive and your attractiveness goes way up. Be manly, strong and kind, and suddenly you become more attractive. Hollywood has to use attractive people to convey stuff quickly that for the vast majority of men has to be conveyed through actions. The problem is that this tiny cohort of highly attractive people has far higher mind space than they otherwise would without our omnipresent visual media. Tinder is no place to show off the best parts of your personality. Or you could shortcut this with “game” which seems kind of hollow and empty to me.; 6/3/19, 10:25 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Ann Althouse said...It's easy to go to the link and find the part of the article I quoted and read on. There is more, and one reason I didn't quote it is that the "authority" is someone I once had a bad experience criticizing.

Sure; I clicked through the link and read the article and I didn't see any citation, footnote, or other link or support relating to that specific assertion. Sorry you've had a bad experience criticizing some person in the past, but I hope you can overcome whatever trepidation that past experience might inspire and apply the same cruelly neutral insight your readers have come to expect!
Thanks for sharing the article--it made the rounds on Twitter last week but there was not much evidence of people thinking deeply about the topics in the twitter responses I read.; 6/3/19, 10:25 AM
Mr Wibble said...: Way more women want to tango than there are men willing to accomodate them.
But thats my impression.

I've moved around enough that I've seen it both ways. Generally it's true that tango has more women, but again they tend to skew older. More middle-aged professionals than young women. For a man looking for a mate, the odds are not good.; 6/3/19, 10:25 AM
William said...: Prayer and fasting not only help to bring one closer to God, they also help to keep the weight off. Women are attracted to thin men of good character. Prayer and fasting, not surgery and steroids, offer a way out of the impasse.; 6/3/19, 10:26 AM
wwww said...: "we'd feel bad for her, wear a ribbon, and raise money with a fun run,"

I disagree. Mental health issues are widely misunderstood and people are largely unsympathetic in practice.

Humans are repelled by mental and physical sickness . Barbara Bush wrote that their friends stopped socializing with them when their little girl got sick. Takes one's breath away: People stopped socializing with them because their little girl got sick and was dying. That's the most sympathetic situation one can think of, a toddler in treatment and ultimately dying, yet people struggled to be compassionate. Not a surprise humans struggle to be compassionate with an adult who is physically healthy.

Honestly, the biggest problem the incels have, most likely, is that others can read their insecurity, sadness, lack of joy of life, depression. Sadness, depression, insecurity: not helpful when making friends or finding a spouse. Humans are attracted to happy people who enjoy life.; 6/3/19, 10:28 AM
madAsHell said...: My daughter no longer sees the gentleman that described her as "looking like her father, but with long hair".; 6/3/19, 10:31 AM
Jaq said...: The whole premise of “game” is that the player believes his true self to be unlovable.; 6/3/19, 10:35 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: wwww Said: Humans are repelled by mental and physical sickness

As are most other animals. It is nature's way of keeping the species healthy. Animals that are acting weirdly/rabid or who are severely deformed are shunned by the herd/group or are killed.

Of course, humans are better than that (we think). While the "incels" may be able to change their physical appearance. The underlying mental sickness is still there and people instinctively shun.

Honestly, the biggest problem the incels have, most likely, is that others can read their insecurity, sadness, lack of joy of life, depression.

THIS. Fix the underlying issue and the surface issue become much less important.; 6/3/19, 10:36 AM
wwww said...: ok, I read a little bit of the article. "Women with babies ignited anger, too. “Every time I pass by a pram, it fills me with disgust to know that she has ruined her body and chose to reproduce with another guy,”

Women are attracted to happy men who love puppies. A happy man walking a dog will get attention. A man scowling at babies is not gonna get a date. That broadcasts as "stay away from the crazy guy!" Basic hygiene is important. Clothing appropriate for the situation. No missing teeth. No cystic acne. No major disfigurement. Otherwise, it's not how someone looks.; 6/3/19, 10:40 AM
wwww said...: There are two surefire ways for a physically unattractive man to be seen as more attractive to women:

Borrow a friend's cute dog and walk it in public parks. Carry a puppy in a baby carrier. Instant attention.; 6/3/19, 10:42 AM
John henry said...: I've completely given up on predicting when peak crazy will occur.

Every time I think it can't get worse, it does.

John Henry; 6/3/19, 10:42 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Thanks for sharing the article--it made the rounds on Twitter last week but there was not much evidence of people thinking deeply about the topics in the twitter responses I read."

It came out on the 28th, but it's ranked number 1 at the NYM website right now, perhaps because nonsubscribers can click to it now that we've hit the beginning of a new month.

BTW, the private window idea works. I used it to get to the article linked in the next post, after it turned out that this "incels" article was the last free one for me.; 6/3/19, 10:45 AM
Oso Negro said...: You can attract the attention of women with looks, wits, money, or by being perceived as a "bad boy". If you can't figure it out and develop some "game" you are indeed a loser and deserve to jerk off alone in your Mom's basement. I have no sympathy for whiners.; 6/3/19, 10:45 AM
wwww said...: "THIS. Fix the underlying issue and the surface issue become much less important."

Yes. How many people are attracted to sad, nihilistic, depressed guy reading Camus? Never mind dates, it's a horrible way to make friends: "He read Camus, who said that life has no great meaning. He pondered nihilistic theories posited on the forums he frequented."; 6/3/19, 10:47 AM
madAsHell said...: TRUE...that people judge you first by how you look. Unfair? Yes. Reality? Yes again.

Appearances are also an indication of mental health, and there is no wishing that away by contorting the language....."They are merely hygiene challenged!!"

The next indicator is language. A simple "Good morning!!" interaction can speak volumes.; 6/3/19, 10:51 AM
buwaya said...: The trouble with fixing minds is that this is a foggy business, as nobody really knows how to do it.
There are empirically derived approaches that work on some people but certainly not all.; 6/3/19, 10:56 AM
Yancey Ward said...: Yeah, I don't know why you wouldn't want to be a transgender woman who looked like Brett Favre.; 6/3/19, 10:58 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/3/19, 11:08 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Women are attracted to happy men who love puppies (animals). A happy man walking a dog will get attention.

Absolutely. My husband (now for 25 years) cinched the deal when we were dating and he met my cats and said "Ooooh Kitty Witties!" in a funny high pitched voice....and they loved him. Jumped right into his lap and started purring. KEEPER!!! Nothing cuter or sexier than a big burly 6'2" 210 lb plumber who loves kittens that are half the size of his hands.

He may not be the man some girls think of as handsome...To my heart he carries the key :-D; 6/3/19, 11:10 AM
stevew said...: "My daughter no longer sees the gentleman that described her as "looking like her father, but with long hair"."

Wise move by your daughter. No true gentleman would say that out loud.; 6/3/19, 11:11 AM
Jaq said...: Those ways probably work too, SDaly, but around here fisherman know that the kind of bait you use mostly determines the kind of fish you catch. I can afford to drive any kind of car I want to, but I drive a simple car I lease and change out every couple of years, and have a standard cab pickup truck for when I need it. I don’t need those kinds of women.; 6/3/19, 11:12 AM
wwww said...: "The trouble with fixing minds is that this is a foggy business, as nobody really knows how to do it."

It's not easy to fix depression. But getting out of his parent's basement, talking to people, joining social activities in real life like clubs, classes, church, or volunteer work would go a long way. Really, anything that gets him out of his parent's basement and talking to people off the internet.

Smile, socialize, invite those real people to a BBQ or a dinner party. If he doesn't know how to talk to people, find a class or a therapist to help him learn how to do it. Wear normal clothes. Take a shower. Don't expect these new friends to give you stuff; don't act entitled to anything. Be friendly and happy, mind your business at building your own life, be social. And he cannot because he is too depressed to get out of the house: That's the time to put the money towards getting as much help as he needs to get out of the house, socialize, exercise, join a club, class, or volunteer organization and meet people.; 6/3/19, 11:13 AM
Jaq said...: "My daughter no longer sees the gentleman that described her as "looking like her father, but with long hair"."

Are you Jennifer Garner’s dad?

https://people.com/movies/jennifer-garner-capital-one-commercial-dad/; 6/3/19, 11:14 AM
tim maguire said...: Ann Althouse said...
"Citation, please.""Is there any evidence of this offered?"

It's easy to go to the link and find the part of the article I quoted and read on.

I'm working my way through it. You're right-it is along article, but it's interesting. I wonder what kind of fathers they had. I bet there's a pattern. Not for nuthin', but none of the ones pictured are ugly and, obviously, plenty of ugly people have happy romantic lives. The problem must lie elsewhere.; 6/3/19, 11:15 AM
Yancey Ward said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/3/19, 11:17 AM
Yancey Ward said...: My daughter no longer sees the gentleman that described her as "looking like her father, but with long hair".

I always think of Liv and Steve Tyler. He is as ugly as fuck and she is jaw-droppingly beautiful, and yet it is easy to tell that he is her father.; 6/3/19, 11:18 AM
Jaq said...: I do dress in kind of expensive clothes though, and don’t mind spending $900 on a set of nice frames for my glasses, and NEVER wear cheap shoes, though I don’t go to Italy to have them made or anything. I spend what it takes to get a nice haircut, so maybe my “cheap car” thing is just shtick, IDK. Who knows really why they do stuff?; 6/3/19, 11:19 AM
SeanF said...: HoodlumDoodlum: Interesting--any kind of a citation for that assertion, that "incels" are more frequently the perpetrators of violence and discrimination than are "transgenders?"

It doesn't assert that incels are more frequently perpetrators than transgenders are perpetrators.

It asserts that incels are more frequently perpetrators than incels are victims, and that the opposite is true for transgenders.

Probably no citation for that, either, though.; 6/3/19, 11:22 AM
wwww said...: What Nobody Said about expensive cars. You want someone who is attracted to a happy guy with a cute puppy or cat? Or do you want someone attracted to an expensive car.

Person attracted to an expensive car is (1) going to be superficial (2) not likely to be frugal with money. Person attracted to happy guy with a cute pet: (1) more likely to be happy herself (2) will have more fun with you in life.; 6/3/19, 11:23 AM
Jaq said...: “incels tend to be perpetrators, rather than targets, of violence and discrimination.”

I guess the question is “more than other men?”

And how much discrimination are loser young men really capable of? Obviously incels are targets of bigotry.; 6/3/19, 11:27 AM
wwww said...: It's good for a young man to look like he has, as my grandmother would put it, "prospects." A man or a woman who looks "put together" means the person looks like they've got their life together. A nice suit for interviews or business conferences or church or formal occasions. That's different from excessive vanity. The goal is not to pay no attention to dress and hygiene. It's a matter of emphasis: ie - hundreds of pairs of expensive shoes? Or a few quality pairs of shoes useful for formal occasions, exercise, business and casual?

Glasses can change your face. Good frames are nice to have. Odd looking frames can look strange. A few pairs of quality shoes and some well-tailored clothing makes sense for business and networking. Good shoes are a worthy investment and useful. Well tailored clothing isn't necessary for casual socializing, but can be nice to have in appropriate circumstances.; 6/3/19, 11:34 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: wwww said...
"we'd feel bad for her, wear a ribbon, and raise money with a fun run,"

I disagree. Mental health issues are widely misunderstood and people are largely unsympathetic in practice.

I agree that mental heal issues are, on the whole, given less social focus and sympathy than I think (and that you apparently think) they should be. It can still be the case, though, that certain groups receive more sympathy for mental health problems than other groups. My assertion is that young men receive less sympathy for their mental health problems than do young women, and as an example I think these "incels" with body image issues receive almost no sympathy/empathy for that as compared to young anorexic or bulimic women with similar body image issues.

The easy retort is to say that we, as a society, lack relative empathy towards the mental health struggles of young men because we're a sexist, patriarchal society and devaluing the problems of low-social-value men is a symptom of that. I'd say even if true that still means treating the disordered thinking of incels as "creepy" and mockable instead of sad and something to be compassionate about is a moral failure.; 6/3/19, 11:36 AM
Anne in Rockwall, TX said...: The easy retort is to say that we, as a society, lack relative empathy towards the mental health struggles of young men because we're a sexist, patriarchal society and devaluing the problems of low-social-value men is a symptom of that. I'd say even if true that still means treating the disordered thinking of incels as "creepy" and mockable instead of sad and something to be compassionate about is a moral failure.

Hoodlum, if it were not for the almost violent attitude of these boys, I would agree. They may suffer mental health issues, but if you read the article and hear their opinion of women and other men, it is creepy. They hate. A lot.; 6/3/19, 11:49 AM
h said...: As a society we no longer have a working definition of the term "mental illness."; 6/3/19, 11:50 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Transgender males and homosexual men attempt suicide at a rate much higher than the population as a whole. That fact elicits sympathy and is given as a moral failure of the nation.

Lower class middle aged white men, mostly unmarried, have been in the last few years committing suicide at a rate well above the population as a whole--the large number of these "deaths of despair" (often combined with and/or accomplished by drug use/overdoses) has been labeled an epidemic. That fact elicits...well, not much. In numerical terms it's easily a "crisis" but in terms of sympathy and national coverage it barely rates.

My point is how we, as a society, react to mental health problems seems to have a lot to do with our baseline sympathy for (and emotional/moral judgement of) the affected group.

There aren't quilts, or Broadway plays, or marches for opioid abuse deaths, but if you compare the yearly number of those to the yearly number of AIDs victims during that crisis, as one example, it's tough to explain why there aren't without concluding that some groups just seem to matter more than others.; 6/3/19, 11:54 AM
Jaq said...: if you read the article and hear their opinion of women and other men

If you accept the opinion piece at face value, you mean. There are bitter men and bitter women. Men are more dangerous than women as a rule. That’s not going to change without a full on commitment to eugenics.; 6/3/19, 11:54 AM
Jaq said...: That fact elicits...well, not much. In numerical terms it's easily a "crisis" but in terms of sympathy and national coverage it barely rates.

One’s a tragedy, the other’s a statistic.; 6/3/19, 11:56 AM
Matt said...: Why do people act like transphobia is a bad thing?

As opposed to, you know, completely normal?; 6/3/19, 12:04 PM
wwww said...: "My assertion is that young men receive less sympathy for their mental health problems than do young women, and as an example I think these "incels" with body image issues receive almost no sympathy/empathy for that as compared to young anorexic or bulimic women with similar body image issues."

It's possible. I would, most likely, agree that able-bodied young men get less sympathy then able-bodied young women for mental health issues. But I believe you are over-estimating the empathy young women get for mental health problems. Thinking of a situation with my sister in high school. Was in a theatre class. A female student was made to apologize, in front of the class, because she had to take several weeks off school for medical treatment for anorexia.

Humans are sympathetic in the short term, but, honestly, they can be catastrophically un empathetic to very sympathetic situations. Say babies dying of cancer. Expect 2 weeks sympathy. After that expect to be seen as a moper. More complex things like chronic physical illness, yikes. Don't expect much. Mental health where nothing physically is wrong; almost nobody will get it. People get it when you break your leg or a knee and it's fixable in the short term.

Everybody is sympathetic to illness in the abstract. In real-life situations, not so much. Abstractly: A 22 year old man suffers from severe depression, has been to a mental hospital and is unable to leave his parent's basement. Specific: We read quotes about how said man hates babies. People are less sympathetic with the specific versus the abstract.

I'm sympathetic to this guy in the article because I do think he's depressed. Depression is caused by inflammation of the brain. What he needs is treatment for the depression, a CBT therapist for his neurosis and unhealthy obsessions/ negative thinking and support from people-- friends, parents, siblings, a therapist, a life coach--somebody/ anybody to get him out of the house and into social activities.; 6/3/19, 12:28 PM
Fernandinande said...: cute puppy

Can the cute puppy be transgender after neutering? (Asking for a cute puppy.)

Human Rights Campaign lists murdered men who had disguised themselves as women; every one in their list is black and, so far in checking, 4 out of 4 of them were killed by non-disguised black men, e.g. (Apparently nobody bothers to murder women disguised as men.) I think these "ladies" are presenting themselves as actual female prostitutes, and the johns are not happy when they find out otherwise.; 6/3/19, 12:36 PM
PM said...: From toxic masculinity to roxit masculinity.; 6/3/19, 12:36 PM
Fernandinande said...: This is the "e.g." murderer above: "Sex worker says pastor charged in Detroit slaying was a customer"; 6/3/19, 12:44 PM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...: What struck me after reading the article was the loserdom of all the male patients. One had a master's in engineering, yet lives at home with his parents and works at Best Buy. There's isn't a single man with a career. I don't know if this is representative or intentional bias on the part of the author.

Nor do they seem to have male friends. They have no source of self-esteem beyond their looks.

I can see why isolated men would fall into this crap.; 6/3/19, 12:48 PM
MadisonMan said...: Having invasive surgery to attract a mate is the definition of a First World Problem.

One cannot understate the attraction of a very fat wallet.; 6/3/19, 12:59 PM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...: Jessica Valenti, lol.; 6/3/19, 1:04 PM
n.n said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/3/19, 1:05 PM
n.n said...: There is an underlying theme of avoidance and a choice to go under the scalpel. #HateLovesAbortion; 6/3/19, 1:14 PM
n.n said...: Incels are a class in the trans-social spectrum. #Labels #Judgment #"="; 6/3/19, 1:20 PM
Sally said...: I like the “before“ photos in the article better than the “after“--in every instance.
These sad men are completely looking in the wrong place for happiness and a fulfilling relationship.
1) Get thee to a psychiatrist. These men have serious psychiatric issues, and probably need medication.
2) Psychotherapy is way cheaper than plastic surgery. And you learn to like the person you are.
3) Develop your relationship with God.
4) Develop life goals, and start working on them.
5) Get a job, for God’s sake - and move the hell out of your parents’ house!
6) Come up with a plan for your career. It may take a few years. You could be that particular age with or without a degree, license, certification, etc. Might as well be “with.”
7) Do things for other people.
8) Get involved in regular activities where you will interact with people. Isolation is destructive.
9) Start friendships, one at a time. Learn what it’s like to care about another person. Amazingly, you feel good.
10) Stop doing things that damage your soul and waste time (eg, incel and plastic surgery websites).
9) Start a hobby that feeds your soul, where you learn something positive. Learning a musical instrument as an adult can be life changing, no matter your age.
10) Take care of yourself - get enough sleep, eat healthy, exercise.
11) Lather and repeat.; 6/3/19, 1:36 PM
madAsHell said...: Involuntarily Celibate??

This is the guy that stops, and asks for directions. He's upset because his dick didn't come with an instruction manual. Maybe there's a PDF file on the internet??

This is the slippery slope to Basic Guaranteed Pussy, and more inclusiveness.

Why do I feel like I've been drawn into an internet hoax?; 6/3/19, 1:39 PM
Jaq said...: You know what I call sex workers? “Mercy-naries”

It’s sort of a double entendre.; 6/3/19, 2:00 PM
Yancey Ward said...: These guys just need to find a girl who has just had a nasty breakup with a boyfriend. I wasn't looking for this exactly at the time, but it is how I lost my virginity- I helped a girl break into her ex's dorm room to steal drawings she had done for him, and she thanked me by inviting me up to her room for sex. Thank you, Lisa C.- wherever you are these days.; 6/3/19, 2:25 PM
Anthony said...: Weirdos.; 6/3/19, 4:03 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: "Some transgender people are against that surgery, she tells me by phone, because 'they think we’re trying to pass and look cis, which is only a thing that we’d want to do in a really transphobic society.'."

Well, that's true. If gender is truly fungible then there's no need to look like a drag queen.
Indeeed, there's no need to look any particular way at all.

The chick on Billions has the right idea.; 6/3/19, 4:21 PM
Francisco D said...: People who are comfortable in their own skin, relatively happy in life and quietly confident in their abilities are usually more attractive, regardless of whether they have the best build, great hair and perfect teeth.

Driving a really expensive car is such an obvious tell, according to my wife.; 6/3/19, 4:24 PM
effinayright said...: Nobody said...
“incels tend to be perpetrators, rather than targets, of violence and discrimination.”

I guess the question is “more than other men?”

And how much discrimination are loser young men really capable of? Obviously incels are targets of bigotry.*******

Disagree. People dislike incels for many reasons, some of which are alluded to here.

Bigotry is "blind and unreasoned prejudice", which is a whole different thing.; 6/3/19, 4:31 PM
Rick said...: Unlike transgender people who pursue surgery, of course, incels tend to be perpetrators, r
rather than targets, of violence and discrimination.

I also think this is an unsupported political bias.

[It's easy to go to the link and find the part of the article I quoted and read on. There is more, and one reason I didn't quote it is that the "authority" is someone I once had a bad experience criticizing.]

That person is first mentioned two paragraphs later. Convention would indicate she not be the source for this which seems to be standard left-feminist prattle.

Similarly the belief that many people struggle with their looks and finding someone "But only incels react with bile" seems to originate with the author as an obvious truism ignoring that feminism is full of similar bile. Feminists don't recognize this though because their hatreds are studied in college. Apparently if your bile is strong enough it becomes your explanation for literally everything it transforms into something else.; 6/3/19, 4:32 PM
Rick said...: I would bet that the number of incels correlates pretty highly with the number of mothers who simply neglected their sons.

I suspect it's the opposite. Incels have never learned how to interact reasonably with others. I suspect a disproportionate percentage had their relationships managed by others and never developed confidence in their own skill.; 6/3/19, 5:23 PM
Achilles said...: This whole thread is insane.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be more attractive to the opposite sex. It is healthy. Plastic surgery becoming cheaper and more available and more effective is nothing but good for people.

I am more worried about people who do not want to or don't care about being more attractive to the opposite sex. It is the core biological drive to continue the species and produce the healthiest possible offspring. As animals we look for characteristics that lead to healthy offspring and this leads naturally to assessments of attractiveness.

Yes we all need to learn to be happy.

But for fucks sake stop trying to tell other people how to be happy. It is just Virtue Signaling for the tall and pretty people.; 6/3/19, 5:25 PM
Rick said...: There is nothing wrong with wanting to be more attractive to the opposite sex.

There's something very wrong with pretending this what people are criticizing.; 6/3/19, 5:43 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Rick said; "But only incels react with bile" seems to originate with the author as an obvious truism ignoring that feminism is full of similar bile.

This is true. The interesting part is that the male incels direct their bile at the women who they feel are rejecting them. They are envious of the Chads.

Female incels, interestingly, don't direct their bile so much at the men who they feel are rejecting them, but at the women who are taking the men from them and having babies. Filty Breeders!

Both sets of incels direct (mostly...not all of them) their animus towards the women.

At least IMO and observations.; 6/3/19, 5:47 PM
madAsHell said...: I always think of Liv and Steve Tyler. He is as ugly as fuck and she is jaw-droppingly beautiful, and yet it is easy to tell that he is her father.

Trust me, I laughed because I lived on the other side of my daughter's dilemma.

How many times did I hear........."Is that your Mother over there?"; 6/3/19, 6:14 PM
wwww said...: "There is nothing wrong with wanting to be more attractive to the opposite sex."

Yeah that's true in moderation. There's nothing wrong with acne medicine. There's nothing wrong with fixing crooked teeth.

There's something wrong with someone who pays for 5 surgical bone/ implant modification of his jaw line. He had more then 1 nose job. He ended up with a open sore that didn't heal from one surgery for months. Moderation is the key to just about everything. There's nothing wrong with eating sugar. But if you eat sugar all the time and don't eat any protein, fruits or veggies... What if he had put all that money into a Vanguard fund and, I dunno, join a rowing club or volunteer at a humane society walking dogs? Or went to church? Or got a hobby? Or joined a rowing club? Anything but obsess about his jaw line. He'd be a lot more attractive.

"The interesting part is that the male incels direct their bile at the women who they feel are rejecting them. They are envious of the Chads."

It's sad most of them do not appear to be interested in finding a wife or a girlfriend. They're interested in having a lot of sex with a lot of unmarried, attractive women without any sense of commitment. It's odd these men feel entitled to sex with lots of people who are strangers to them.; 6/3/19, 6:14 PM
Fen said...: she comments on far-right internet culture

I find it odd that between the Moderate Center and the Extreme Far Right there must exist a thriving culture that numbers billions of souls, and yet no sociologist or anthropologist has bothered to study them.

I'm told they worship a Cheeto as their God Emperor and shout "ma-ga!" during sex...

Curious.; 6/3/19, 7:11 PM
Fen said...: Unlike transgender people who pursue surgery, of course, incels tend to be perpetrators,
rather than targets, of violence and discrimination.

"I also think this is an unsupported political bias."

Transgenders currently occupy the top of the Victimhood Totempole. The writer must bow to them before Othering others for being delusional freaks.

Much like a professor discussin modern primitive cultures in Africa who feels a need to preface his lecture with "some of my best friends are black".; 6/3/19, 7:16 PM
Fen said...: If the headline makes you wonder why is it okay to be incelphobic when it's not okay to be transphobic-

Oh that's easy. Incel was coined to Other the Toxic Masculinity GamerGate Straight White Male Scum that must be deplatformed for our Two Minute Hate in the name of Tolerance and Diversity.; 6/3/19, 7:23 PM
Howard said...: Achilles: It's not better to have cheaper plastic surgery because inferior people disguised as normals will breed more prodigiously therefore insuring deevolution.

The real boon is the obesity opioid epidemic among the Trump deplorables.; 6/3/19, 7:41 PM
Fen said...: Brave New Women! Know your Goldstein! Which of these is an Incel?

1) a guy who joins a Men's Rights Organization

2) a guy who uses "game theory" to manipulate you into having sex

3) a guy who doesn't believe Regret Rape is Rape-Rape.

4) a guy who posts on Dr Helen's blog about "anti-male culture"

5) a blogger who takes a closer look at Valenti's Breasts

6) a guy who argues "feminism is cancer"

7) a guy who disagrees with you

8) that guy standing next to you

9) a guy who was the first to stop clapping for Captain Marvel

10) a guy who thinks it's about the nail

11) a guy who tells you to learn to operate the toilet seat

12) all of the above; 6/3/19, 7:41 PM
Howard said...: Trump's locked in the Incel cuck vote; 6/3/19, 7:42 PM
Fen said...: Howard. Tampon. You can get them for free at your STD clinic.; 6/3/19, 8:12 PM
Jokah Macpherson said...: 'The whole premise of “game” is that the player believes his true self to be unlovable.'

It's actually the exact opposite. The best PUA instructors these days heavily emphasize that you have value/attractive qualities by default, no matter what your situation, and game is in large part a matter of demonstrating these qualities to the women you like.

A lot of guys turn to game because society has told them they're unlovable for _fill in the blank_ reason. Why would any decent women want you? You're too short. You live with your parents. You have a bad attitude. You don't have enough interesting hobbies. You don't have a socially approved job. You don't dress the right way. And so on. But none of this matters in any significant way. If you met a beautiful woman you really clicked with, would you give a shit that she lived with her parents or spent her free time watching Netflix instead of volunteering for charity? Hell no! You'd be madly in love in a matter of minutes. You'd excuse all the flaws. Well women are the same; once you demonstrate attractive qualities through your personality, all the society checklist items go out the window. "I don't normally like _fill in the blank_ guys, but you're different."

I understand that a lot of folks' opinion of "game" is based on where it was in the early 2000's but that is a very superficial understanding. Lots of men out there are suffering as a result of erroneous beliefs and stumbling onto PUA materials can be the first step to letting them go.; 6/3/19, 9:40 PM
Jokah Macpherson said...: "Women are attracted to thin men of good character."

Character has nothing to do with attraction for either sex. There's guys that beat the shit out of their girlfriends when the mood strikes them but the girlfriends just rationalize it away because they're attracted.; 6/3/19, 9:50 PM
Jokah Macpherson said...: "It's odd these men feel entitled to sex with lots of people who are strangers to them."

Well, people have been able to get sex with lots of partners before, so it's certainly possible. I don't think it's that strange for some guys to wonder, "Why that guy and not me?"; 6/3/19, 9:55 PM
Jaq said...: Character has nothing to do with attraction for either sex. There's guys that beat the shit out of their girlfriends when the mood strikes them but the girlfriends just rationalize it away because they're attracted.

When I was in 9th grade I had a very hot girlfriend, she picked me out, I would never have had the balls to approach her, and a senior liked her and so he sought me out and beat me up. He had a pretty red convertible and everything. She just liked me more after that.; 6/4/19, 4:49 AM
Jaq said...: It's actually the exact opposite. ... A lot of guys turn to game because society has told them they're unlovable for _fill in the blank_ reason. Why would any decent women want you?

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Lots of men out there are suffering as a result of erroneous beliefs and stumbling onto PUA materials can be the first step to letting them go.

I suppose it’s cheaper than therapy, “fake it ’til you make it.”; 6/4/19, 4:56 AM
Tina Trent said...: Cis is a slur. It's OK for transvestites to use it because some pigs are more equal than other pigs.; 6/4/19, 5:17 AM
Tina Trent said...: What a dishonest article. Virtually all the evidence of violence from people defined as incels are in reality acts of mass murder by Middle Eastern men, one of whom, Alek Minassian, was previously identified as a Muslim terrorist. Likewise, Marc Lepine, who committed the Montreal Massacre of female students, had changed his name from Ghaebi and had an abusive Algerian Muslim father. The article's subject, Truth4lie, is coyly described as having an "Arabic" nose, but the author is too dishonest to come out and discuss whether his culture is the real source of his misogyny.

Of course, you're not going to find an article discussing Islamic misogyny in NY Magazine. "Incel" looks to be a sort of whiteface to insinuate blame for other prejudices onto white males or "white male privilege." Some leftists even blamed Elliot Rogers' misogynistic massacre on his suffering as an Asian man in "white privilege America."

So Alice Hines finds one Muslim guy in the Netherlands addicted to plastic surgery, a disorder affecting men and women, and she decides that what she is really seeing is toxic masculinity so toxic that when these men get plastic surgery it makes them even more evil. Dr. Eppley was right to tell her off. She's a prejudiced buffoon.

The majority of violence against transgender people is committed by other transgender people or their intimate partners. Non-domestic violence against them arises from their choice to do risky sex work. They are also more likely than non-transgender people to commit crimes. There is no evidence that "incels" are more violent than transgender people.; 6/4/19, 6:20 AM
Defenseman Emeritus said...: wholelottasplainin' said:

People dislike incels for many reasons, some of which are alluded to here.

Bigotry is "blind and unreasoned prejudice", which is a whole different thing.

Everyone who dislikes any group has their reasons. Your gambit of resorting to the dictionary definition of bigotry as opposed to the word's accepted common use as a synonym for prejudice reads like an attempt to place your own bigotry above criticism. But by your dictionary definition, no one is a bigot. People's reasons for disliking certain groups might be based on stereotypes, or incorrect or misleading information (such as might be found in New York Magazine articles written by left-wing journalists with agendas), but they're still reasons.; 6/4/19, 9:45 AM