The headline at WaPo. My answer to that question: It's enough to accept that he served the prison term that he was given and accept that he now has a right to be free and do what he can to restart his life. To "welcome" him is to be glad to see him again. Let him prove himself. Don't put obstacles in front of him. But "welcome" is too strong a word.
Dubbed the “American Taliban,” [John Walker] Lindh was sentenced to 20 years in prison after pleading guilty to supporting militants who harbored al-Qaeda as it planned the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. But in a surprise move, Lindh will be released from federal prison on Thursday, three years early, federal officials said.
Okay, then he hasn't served the prison term that he was given... but, whatever the process, it's been determined that it's time to release him into American society. Apparently, it's time off for good behavior. That's the process, and the process was followed.
Federal officials requested numerous conditions for Lindh’s release, according to court filings. He will need permission to acquire Internet-capable devices, which would be monitored “continuously.” Lindh was ordered to undergo mental health counseling and will not be allowed to communicate online in any language other than English without approval. He is also barred from having a passport, communicating with known extremists or accessing material that reflects “extremist or terroristic views,” according to the documents.....
Lindh has expressed remorse for his crimes. He tearfully told the judge during his 2002 sentencing: “I have never supported terrorism in any form, and I never will. . . . I made a mistake by joining the Taliban,” he said at the time. “Had I realized then what I know now, I would never have joined them.”...
ADDED:
Dylan lyrics:
I’m sittin’ at the welcome table, I’m so hungry I could eat a horse...
I’m gonna revitalize my thinking, I’m gonna let the law take its course
Jesus is calling, He’s coming back to gather up his jewels...
We living by the golden rule, whoever got the gold rules
Posts
93 comments:
Firsties!
Narr
Welcome back, asshole
He is also barred from... communicating with known extremists...
So he can't be interviewed by anyone at MSNBC...
Some will welcome him, perhaps - depending on his behavior. He expressed his dislike of America, even fought against his own country, which will bring him some admiration among leftists. But if he goes beyond contrition and says anything positive about America, he will be underbussed.
So he can't be interviewed by anyone at MSNBC...
His best move would be to come out as an anti-Trumper. It would make him an instant MSM media darling.
he's free, with limitations.
I'm free to shun him, with limitations.
It's a free country, sort of.
Maybe he’ll never see his release. Whitey Bulger style. Criminals and Inmates tend to have their own system of justice...
That's sweet that he's sorry. It's pretty simple, Johnny. You were a brother in arms of terrorist assholes who had just murdered an American. You were carrying a gun with them and shooting it at Americans with them. Big boys don't get do-overs on that.
ESAD; you should have done the twenty.
Traitor. In a more civilized age he would've been hanged.
Doesn't mean many of us forgot how. We're just waiting around for things to change. And they will.
Bernie wants him to have the right to vote.
The system could use the trapezoidal rule by sentencing again on release and keeping him for half such additional time as may be imposed. A judge and a judge in the future impose the sentence.
That he feels remorse should count for something, I guess. But still: He hated us enough to throw in with our enemies near the start of a war. If what he did isn't treason then we should retire the word.
Will we welcome him back? If his remorse were genuine, if he had any honor, he would exile himself, go live in some country that was neutral in this conflict, one that dislikes the U.S. enough to welcome him.
The war in Afghanistan lasted longer than his incarceration. Time to wrap up that Victory.
Johnny Micheal Spann
I thought his sentence was far too severe, and I felt sorry for him.
He did not go to Afghanistan to fight against Americans. He went there to fight, but not against Americans. He went to fight for one group of Afghan Moslems against another group of Afghan Moslems.
While there, Americans came to Afghanistan to fight, and so he found himself in a particular fight that largely had come to him.
I did not think he should have been sentenced to 20 years, and I thought he would be released much earlier. I thought President Bush or President Obama would release him.
"it's been determined . . . the process was followed"
Well, isn't that nice and proper. Somehow something was determined. Somehow some process was followed. No actual people involved. No actual judgment that needs to be defended against the values of Americans.
He'll fit right back in to Marin County.
Mike S,
Interesting points that tend to get glossed over. Lindh had been in Afghanistan awhile fighting in the civil war there with the Taliban. The Taliban are still around and the US will cut a deal with them. Maybe Lindh can facilitate it.
He is alive because the globalists agree with him and all of their tools support his cause. There is a sizable block of people who live here who hate freedom and want it destroyed.
There is another sizable block of people who take there freedom for granted and reign their disdain and contempt for the people who gave them their freedom.
Seriously fuck you people. Lindh is a piece of shit who tried to kill US service members. No big deal to you of course. You all mouth the words “we appreciate your service” but we know it is bullshit.
The taliban are fucking animals and they and anyone who supports them in any way should be removed from the planet.
He should be shipped to Afghanistan and so should anyone who wants him back in our country.
FWIW, federal prison give you one day off per month of "good" time. I haven't done the math (and you don't want me to), but that sounds about right. So it probably is fair to say he's served his sentence.
Hope he used the time to get his head out of his ass, but not counting on it.
It is determined that he's paid his debt to society.
Perhaps he should hang out with Angela Davis, Bill Ayers, and Bernardine Dohrn.
Federal prisoners must serve 85% of their sentence. If they are on good behavior, then they get out after 85%. The federal prison personnel at Terre Haute determined that Lindh was a good prisoner. So the Federal Bureau of Prisons is releasing Lindh after 17 years. (17 divided by 20 is 85%). He must abide by the conditions for the next three years of his sentence to stay out of prison.
You can list me with the people who believe that John Walker Lindh should have been executed for pretty much the same reason that we step on spiders we find scuttling across the floor.
I made a mistake by joining the Taliban
I keep reading this line over and over. The dark absurdity of it.
Welcome back, your jihad dreams were your ticket out
Welcome back, to that same old Satanic America that you cursed about
Well the names have all changed since you were Taliban
But those dreams have remained and you're rested and tan
Who'd have thought they'd lead ya
(Who'd have thought they'd lead ya)
Back here where we fear ya
(Back here where we fear ya)
Yeah we flee him a lot 'cause the law's got us on the spot
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back, welcome back
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back
And I cringe when I think how you must have been
And I know what a scene you were learning in
Was there something that made you come back again
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back, welcome back
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back
Dylan has the gold.
Achilles,
Relax. The US has been in Afghanistan 17 years. The federal government is extremely stupid. The military should have been out of Afghanistan by the end of 2002.
But we have the Nation Building and money to spend on it. Defense contractors must be kept wealthy.
Most people appreciate the service of the soldiers. The leaders are worthless men who have no problem letting other people and their children get killed for their own idiocy.
Lindh quickly became a propaganda tool for the government. Of course, the same government has let millions of Muslims come over here from shithole countries. We’ll be paying for that for a long time.
Again, our leaders are worthless.
"I thought his sentence was far too severe, and I felt sorry for him.
He did not go to Afghanistan to fight against Americans. He went there to fight, but not against Americans. He went to fight for one group of Afghan Moslems against another group of Afghan Moslems.
While there, Americans came to Afghanistan to fight, and so he found himself in a particular fight that largely had come to him.
I did not think he should have been sentenced to 20 years, and I thought he would be released much earlier. I thought President Bush or President Obama would release him."
Yeah, I agree. It seemed to me he was only punished after he mouthed off to the reporter. Until that point, it looked as if he'd be released. So, he got sent to prison for his views, not his actions. He picked a really, really bad time.
Chelsea Manning did a lot more damage and is free.
If you’re worried he might have lost his religious zeal, as of 2012 it was still going strong.
The father of John Walker Lindh, the young American who was captured in Afghanistanafter 9/11 and sentenced to prison for aiding the Taliban against U.S. troops, said he is proud of his son for fighting in court today for the right to pray with other Muslim prisoners.
"I was really proud of John," Frank Lindh told ABCNews.com. "Today he did such a good job of explaining the daily prayer. It was a really well informed testimony. It shows how much depth of knowledge he has about Islam."
John Lindh, who pleaded guilty to helping the Taliban and carrying explosives, testified in court today that a prison policy limiting group prayer has forced him to sin.
Lindh, 31, is suing prison officials for the right to pray five times a day with fellow Islamic inmates instead of praying alone in his cell.
"I believe it's obligatory," Lindh said in court, the Associated Press reported. "If you're required to do it in congregation and you don't, then that's a sin."
"Federal officials requested numerous conditions for Lindh’s release". Judging by the requested conditions, these officials don't seem to have a lot of confidence that he's learned his lesson.
I don't see why the court is applying all these restrictions on him. Who will trust him again? Is he going to be put in the military? The State Department? (well, maybe under a Democrat. They like racists and radicals these days)
He did his time. Let him go. I will not 'welcome' him but I will give him basic civility to go about his day. Trust him? Nope. But that is the point of punishment: you do your penance and are ALLOWED to try to be better.
It is not, after all, like he was a Roy Moore who did something bad 40 years ago. Forgiveness is always on offer unless you are a live Republican.
He should have been executed as a traitor on the battlefield.
Bravo, EDH!
A lost backstory on Johnny Taliban.
He grew up in Marin County, a rich suburb of SF - hot tubs and limousine liberals. Parents divorced, dad went gay, brought his new partner in the picture (a bit ahead of the social curve). Johnny freaks out, decides to convert to Islam, goes off to Afghanistan, the rest is history.
Much of the folks Bay Area are reasonably successful people, who have no clue about American history, tradition or cultural, and simply work, eat, make money and live.
I think we can be safe in expecting the type of Islam he embraces. If there was total justice in his case, he would be stripped of his citizenship and deported to Afghanistan immediately upon release from prison. He’d be right at home praying with fellow believers like the Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood, ISIS, etc.
This is another example of the type of person Bernie Sanders and AOC want to vote to determine our president and other elected officials. No doubt which party he would vote for.
If America can say “nevermind” to the Taliban (as it appears we’re about to do) then surely it can forgive and forget this kid, whose crime was largely being in the wrong place at the wrong time, along with being the son of some dopey Marin flake.
Lindh will get on the Jesus train till he reaches the 'commutation' station.
Expect him to relapse into his old behavior after a few months of freedom.
Do note...
"He received training at Al-Farouq, a training camp associated with al-Qaeda, designated a terrorist organization by the United States and other countries. While at the camp, he attended a lecture by Osama bin Laden. After the 9/11 attacks, he remained there to join opposing military forces after he learned that the U.S. was allied with the Afghan Northern Alliance. Lindh had previously received training with Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, an internationally designated terrorist organization based in Pakistan"
"He took part in the Battle of Qala-i-Jangi, a violent uprising of the Taliban prisoners, during which the CIA officer Johnny "Mike" Spann was killed, together with all but 86 of the estimated 300–500 prisoners."
He danced with the devil.... tough nuts.
Traitors should be shot.
mccullough said...
Achilles,
Relax.
Never.
The world is a shitty place. Americans seem to have forgotten what the standard human living condition is and what it takes to avoid that.
You all can take it for granted. My daughters aren't going to lose their freedom because you all don't give a shit.
Again, our leaders are worthless.
I think the war in Afghanistan is stupid. On my 3rd deployment there we were literally catching and releasing the same shit heads on a weekly basis. We could have wiped the Taliban scum out in a short amount of time.
We were purposely held back.
The only people who are worse than the Democrats that supported the Taliban are the Neocon Republicans who sent us over there to die, set our ROE's up to fail, and built their dreams of endless stupid war. They all supported Hillary in 2016.
We know the WaPo welcomes him, don’t we? Very clarifying.
And yet the media wonders where their audience went. I think we’ve cracked the case!
Actions have consequences. He is a traitor and should be dealt with accordingly.
Mike Sylwester said...
I thought his sentence was far too severe, and I felt sorry for him.
You Sir, are entitled to that opinion. I respect that. However, When I think of this slime, I keep coming up with alternating images of Michael Spann being dragged down my Lindh and his peers. Spann having emptied his pistol into the mob as they clawed at him.
The other image is from my war, with Hanoi Jane smiling at the camera sitting on an AAA Gun.
flip-flip-flip....
He took part in the Battle of Qala-i-Jangi, a violent uprising of the Taliban prisoners, during which the CIA officer Johnny "Mike" Spann was killed, together with all but 86 of the estimated 300–500 prisoners."
This kinda seals it for me. 17 years is too light for this. Shoulda been death penalty or life imprisonment.
Somewhere a wall is waiting.
"Chelsea Manning did a lot more damage and is free."
What damage did Chelsea Manning do...other than to show a U.S. helicopter crew committing war crimes by firing on and killing unarmed civilians on the ground, then firing on and killing other unarmed civilians coming to their aid and to retrieve the bodies?
Besides, Manning did serve several years in prison, and is in jail now for a second time for refusing to answer questions before a Grand Jury.
Bay Area Guy said...
Parents divorced, dad went gay, brought his new partner in the picture (a bit ahead of the social curve). Johnny freaks out, decides to convert to Islam, goes off to Afghanistan, the rest is history
Sounds like he's anti-gay.
Ah, Spann.
Never mind.
A question related to this case: is it still possible to execute traitors in this country?
Of course the Muslims are not a religion, although in order to feel good about themselves they outdo the Hasidic Jews in imposing legal teachings that no man can ever meet. They are the salty soldiers of a military conquest operation seeking whom they may rob, enslave and kill.
Tolerate them and you just make your area into a soft target of killers who totally despise you.
"My daughters aren't going to lose their freedom because you all don't give a shit."
They're also not going to lose their freedom because of anything we've done or are doing in the Middle East. If we lose our freedom, (that bit of it we still have left), it will be due to actions of our own government against us, not by the actions of other nations.
Welcome him back? Heck the democrat party has a spot reserved for him in their presidential primary. He'll fit in rather nicely between Bernie and Jay Inslee.
Achilles,
Your daughters can fight in US combat troops nowadays . So they will not only have their freedom, they will be able to liberate oppressed people in other countries now.
Our freedom is going away because our country has massive debt at the local, state, and federal level.
All prisoners will be released early soon. No money to keep them incarcerated.
The name he took is Suleiman Faris, he was recruited at the Islamic university in Sanaa, as harmless as Abdulmutallab
How long did we keep Tokyo rose for? And she didnt take arms the Brits and lord haw haw.
Robert Cook said...
What damage did Chelsea Manning do?
For one thing, he demonstrated to our allies, and friends in dangerous countries, that talking with our State Department is both detrimental to your reputation and health.
In the operational Army files, were the names of Afghans who help the US. The Taliban loved those names
In the State Department databases, were messages about dissident Chinese, Tibetans, and private conversations between US Leaders and leaders of other countries.
The message is that nothing is secret if you talk with the US...
mccullough said...
"Our freedom is going away because our country has massive debt at the local, state, and federal level.
All prisoners will be released early soon. No money to keep them incarcerated"
Yes you can choose between tax and spend Ds or borrow and spend Rs.
His sentence is done. It appears to be a justified decision to let him go, so I have no problem here. He doesn't need my acceptance and welcome, and doesn't deserve it either. If he makes an honest life from this point forward, then that is that.
do they need his cell for another traitor?
"Your daughters can fight in US combat troops nowadays . So they will not only have their freedom, they will be able to liberate oppressed people in other countries now."
How could they do that? That's not what our military does.
"In the operational Army files, were the names of Afghans who help the US. The Taliban loved those names."
There is no evidence Manning's revelations caused any harm to anyone...except to the lies our government tells about what our military is doing in other countries.
The moral of this story
The moral of this song
Is simply that one should never be
Where one does not belong.
Our resident atheist dissident (from NYC btw) knows exactly what the military is doing in Afghanistan of course.
Is the US ready to welcome him back?
Is he a Democrat? If so part of the US sure is.
"Our resident atheist dissident (from NYC btw) knows exactly what the military is doing in Afghanistan of course."
Nobody knows what our military is doing in Afghanistan, including them.
Wait I thought you knew exactly why we are there - to kill civilians, to be brainwashed and lied to like poor victims, to provide jobs for losers with nothing else going on in their lives. You've told us all of these things with your signature sanctimony and now you're backing down? How unbecoming such a multi-faceted deep thinking dissident.
C’mon.
We are building a Free and Prosperous Nation in Afghanistan so that terrorism is eradicated from the earth. That’s also why we attacked Iraq and freed them from Saddam. Iraq is now a flourishing country. The cradle of Enlightened Islam. A beacon for the 99.99% of Muslims who want peace and prosperity.
The decent people of Afghanistan deserve a better fate than what awaits them if the Taliban return in full force. Regardless of arguments (other than predictable one-dimensional clichés like you know you'll get from the likes of Cookie Chomsky Jr.) about intervention, nation building, global strategy, etc., there are people there that did appreciate our presence, worked with us, and put themselves and their families at risk to support us. I agree it's time to wrap up and get out, but I see nothing wrong with empathizing with the plight of those who will be left to deal with the future.
"Wait I thought you knew exactly why we are there - to kill civilians...."
No, these are after effects. The "reason" we're there, is whatever the government declared at the time was the goal. Initially, it was simply to capture bin Laden and his forces. He escaped handily, at which point, our stated purpose for being there went up in smoke. We should have exited. Instead, we're still there...for what? ("Liberating oppressed peoples" is not a valid or legal reason to invade and occupy another country, even if that were our purpose there.)
I suspect our primary purpose was not so much to capture bin Laden as to put troops on the ground and establish a military base of operations near Russia.
"The decent people of Afghanistan deserve a better fate than what awaits them if the Taliban return in full force."
Isn't that the place of the people of Afghanistan to prevent the return of the Taliban to power, or to oust them if they regain it?
It seems to me the decent people of Afghanistan who have had family members killed by U.S. airstrikes while they were attending funerals and weddings and the like will be happy to see us go.
Oh, I forgot to add, "...establish a military base of operations near Russia and Iran".
"A question related to this case: is it still possible to execute traitors in this country?"
And when exactly were these halcyon days when the U.S. regularly executed traitors? The answer is never. The U.S. has executed exactly one person for treason (and that was during the Civil War). John Brown and one of his accomplices were tried and executed by Virginia. So even if you include those two, the grand total is three. We couldn't even manage to convict Jefferson Davis!
There are two successful historical examples of "Nation-Building," accomplished by external forces - The State of Israel and Japan - both accomplished in the face of the epic destruction of World War II.
The former was more of a global effort via UK decolonization trends, supervised by the nascent UN vote; the latter was almost exclusively us (MacArthur was truly heroic).
The former was done in the aftermath of the Holocaust; the latter was done in the aftermath of two nuclear bombs.
The point: National Building is crazy difficult, and most often doesn't work, except in terribly rare, and uniquely violent circumstances.
Robert Cook:
"It seems to me the decent people of Afghanistan who have had family members killed by U.S. airstrikes while they were attending funerals and weddings and the like will be happy to see us go."
And the decent people of Afghanistan who wanted to make their country into a non-repressive hellhole, and took their lives in their hands to stand with us - people Manning and Assange would have been happy to see killed, because they sided with us and we're the bad guys - are going to be damned sorry to see us go.
It wasn't most of them. Maybe it wasn't enough of them. But they were there, and I hate to think what will become of them. Not a policy argument - I'm not sure what we're trying to accomplish there anymore - just my own perspective, having known a few of them.
And when exactly were these halcyon days when the U.S. regularly executed traitors? The answer is never.
Just because the US government doesn't execute traitors doesn't mean traitors can't be executed.
Hey, not only will be welcomed back, but he can vote and get food stamps!
"“I have never supported terrorism in any form, and I never will. . . . I made a mistake by joining the Taliban,” he said at the time. “Had I realized then what I know now, I would never have joined them.”..."
It's hard to imagine that a man would be dishonest about this, and I want to believe him. Most of us would lie to get out, of course, but I give him the benefit of the doubt. Young people do really stupid shit before we wise up. He did his time, I'll give him a second chance.
"Isn't that the place of the people of Afghanistan to prevent the return of the Taliban to power, or to oust them if they regain it?"
Just because we leave doesn't mean that the Afghans are suddenly free of outside influence. I'd love China to take a whack at it, but Afghanistan doesn't have anything they need, or anything anyone else does either.
when exactly were these halcyon days when the U.S. regularly executed traitors? The answer is never.
It was done in battle and in circumstances were not such that courts were around. Lots were executed for cowardice, too. You just never heard about it. The SEAL being tried was a victim of Obama ROE. That's all.
"In the operational Army files, were the names of Afghans who help the US. The Taliban loved those names."
There is no evidence Manning's revelations caused any harm to anyone...except to the lies our government tells about what our military is doing in other countries.
Cookie sings himself to sleep with lullabys like this.
emeralds, rare earths, and other materials, that the Chinese are interested in, senior chief Gallagher was indeed being railroaded by some newby cadets, who didn't want him to get the training command,
"It was done in battle and in circumstances were not such that courts were around"
Well that is simply murder not a sentence for treason.
"The SEAL being tried was a victim of Obama ROE. That's all"
You do realize he was turned in by several members of his own team? No probably not since you only watch Fox.
and then we see the actual facts:
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/04/22/what-motivated-fellow-seals-to-dime-out-eddie-gallagher/
BTW, “Taliban” is the plural of “Talib.” So Lindh should be called the “American Talib.”
The system could use the trapezoidal rule by sentencing again on release and keeping him for half such additional time as may be imposed. A judge and a judge in the future impose the sentence.
Ha! Bring back the reserve clause!
"Cookie sings himself to sleep with lullabys like this."
Well, sure...the U.S. government admitted at trial there was no evidence of anyone named in Manning's documents having been harmed.
"It was done in battle and in circumstances were not such that courts were around. Lots were executed for cowardice, too. You just never heard about it. The SEAL being tried was a victim of Obama ROE. That's all."
How unsurprising that those who condemn Manning for having revealed war crimes by U.S. troops excuse war crimes by U.S. troops.
BAG
I think the success of nation building depends mostly on the people of the nation being built. Your examples are my evidence.
Knowing where he's from, he'll get a very warm welcome home.
"How unsurprising that those who condemn Manning for having revealed war crimes by U.S. troops excuse war crimes by U.S. troops."
From the guy who likens our boys as "parasites" for serving during "peacetime"
Zero credibility. Might as well get Chuck's on Trump's latest.
Lots were executed for cowardice, too.
You served from 1961-1968 or '9 and you never served a tour in Vietnam. Too bad you weren't summarily executed for cowardice. I guess someone had to stay home to punch the hippies.
"From the guy who likens our boys as 'parasites' for serving during 'peacetime.'"
"Our 'boys'?" A bit condescending, don't you think? Infantilizing, even. And it leaves out the women.
And...who says it's "peacetime." We are involved in various wars right now, none of them for any good or valid or legal purpose, all of them of our own volition. But...we're supposed to believe we're in "peacetime" so no one will pay attention to where so much of our tax dollars are being squandered, (not to mention all the death and destruction that our tax dollars are buying and is mostly suffered by others).
But, of course, you are lying, as you know very well I never called the individuals who enlist in our military "parasites." It is the military as an organization, the Generals and other high officers, the Pentagon, and the war budget that is greater than most of the other countries in the world combined that is parasitic. And that is exactly the correct term for it: it feeds off our tax dollars and produces nothing of value in return.
I'm just restating (far less pointedly and artfully) what James Madison warned of at the dawn of our republic.
“Lindh has expressed remorse for his crimes. He tearfully told the judge during his 2002 sentencing: “I have never supported terrorism in any form“ How can you express remorse for something you didn’t do?
“Lindh has expressed remorse for his crimes. He tearfully told the judge during his 2002 sentencing: 'I have never supported terrorism in any form' How can you express remorse for something you didn’t do?"
A) This may just be the reporter's characterization of Lindh's mea culpa for associating with a violent group,
or,
B) Many people in the prison system make apologies for things they didn't do (or claim they didn't do), as it is often what they must due to obtain reduced sentences, early release, parole approval, etc. The justice system is not just about meting out sentences for crimes persons are convicted of, but about getting everyone who is convicted to say, in some way or other, they're guilty. This is for purposes of show, and to lend legitimacy to what may have been an injustice;
of,
C) One party's "terrorism" is another party's "fight for liberation" (and vice versa).
Now do the Nicaraguan resistance.
He should have been rotting in an unmarked grave for almost 20 years at this point. In a more civilized age he would have had his trial on the battlefield and then been summarily hanged as a traitor.
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