"They’re not even friends with you anymore. They’re so busy they don’t have time to get a cup of coffee. I can’t stand them. Go. Go be with your kid. Who gives a shit. So the great dads, they renounce their lives.... They bother me, the great dads."
Said Larry David, in one of the interviews in that Howard Stern book of interviews.
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96 comments:
3 weeks early on this post.
Before I tell you what a great dad, promise me one thing:
Don’t tell mom.
One of the most annoying PR campaigns of the past few years is the Fed's billboards all around my town instructing men how to be good dads.
This is not nearly as annoying, however, as the government sponsored feminist bitching about men. That's non-stop.
What a dick.
hmm?
So,
the Good Dad doesn't hit on his daughter's friends?
the Great Dad doesn't hit on his daughter?
Or do i have that backwards?
Huh. Great Dads can get coffee with their friend. Sounds like Larry is hurt one of his friends ghosted him and blamed the kid.
"They bother me, the great dads"
They should. They are telling him: my kids matter more than you. Which they do. Which, for the Davids, of the world, is intolerable.
You renounce your life for a few years. Then you get it back. But with the benefit of a well-raised child ready to go out and live a good productive life.
Completely understandable why Jerry modeled Costanza after him.
They bother me, the sitcom dads
L David would be interesting as a presidential candidate against Trump.
Jeepers. Slightly off topic, not completely: Jordan Peterson - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L47oJxwp6yg
Just the last five minutes (the rest is worthwhile, but start with those).
I do not believe that any human being with a heart can watch these five minutes and not love Jordan Peterson.
Completely understandable why Jerry modeled Costanza after him.
It was more Larry David modeling Costanza after himself. Funny clip of Jason Alexander talking about how he realized George Costanza was Larry David for the first time: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4SgIH4tTtRo
A child centered family is not healthy.
By Great Dad he seems to mean Great Man to busy giving to his career and his clients than to his son. Perfect fathers are rare.
Dan in Philly at 8:07am
Great Comment.
The memories of my family outings are still a source of strength to me. I remember we'd all pile into the car — I forget what kind it was — and drive and drive. I'm not sure where we'd go, but I think there were some trees there. The smell of something was strong in the air as we played whatever sport we played. I remember a bigger, older guy we called "Dad." We'd eat some stuff, or not, and then I think we went home. I guess some things never leave you. — Jack Handey
He kind of has a point, though. Parents need to make time to do things they enjoy with adult friends, and lots don't, to their own and their children's detriment. Balance, people.
I saw Larry David once at Sunrise Pizza in Rye, NY. He was there with a man and a woman, and the woman was glaring at me when she saw me take out my phone, but I was only taking pictures of my adorable infant. Did not care about having a picture of Larry David.
How to be a dad - read the bible.
"...I can't stand the great dad"
Say Larry "Can't-stand-ja" David. I wonder why they "can't stand" him either lol.
I have two favorite girlfriends who are also moms (their kids are much younger than mine though) and it's like pulling teeth to get them to step out for a coffee in the evening after the kids are in bed. This doesn't mean they are 'great moms,' though; it means they are controlling moms. Not cool. Ladies, I promise you that your husband can hold down the fort while your preschooler is sleeping and we are giggling together for 90 minutes at Starbucks. Nothing bad is going to happen and everything good is going to happen.
Also -- last comment, I promise -- you have those awful moms who won't let their husbands get away, ever. "I need help with the kids." If you're taking a trip or something, of course, but no you don't need "help" with the kids for a few hours on a regular day for your husband to go spend time with his friends. I know tons of moms like this and it's hard to bite my tongue.
A Good Enough Dad is good enough. Make American Dads Good-enough Again. MADGA.
"I have two favorite girlfriends who are also moms (their kids are much younger than mine though) and it's like pulling teeth to get them to step out for a coffee in the evening after the kids are in bed."
Unless my friends get a babysitter, and both parents are going out, evening after bedtime is not a popular time. One of my friends has a 5 month old. Getting out is difficult for her. Her boy had a sleep regression, and is not sleeping for longer then 2 hours. Other friends tend to have people over to their house, and put the kids to bed at 7:00. I was impressed when the kids sleep through the guest noise during the Purim party.
In the process of becoming a father myself. I aspire to be one of the great ones. Sorry, Larry!
A Good Enough Dad is good enough.
Ample evidence this is true. Meet the basics, show a little love and you've just about maxed out your impacty. Like it or not the kid takes it from there...
In a world with too few dad's in the picture this does not seem like an argument worth having.
"He kind of has a point, though. Parents need to make time to do things they enjoy with adult friends, and lots don't, to their own and their children's detriment. Balance, people."
Agree and that sort of thing - time with friends - will contribute to being a Great Dad or Mom.
To me Larry David isn't talking about that, he's taking issue with his Great Dad friend's decision not to accommodate Larry David's schedule. It's all about Larry David.
Moms, if you want to fuck up your whole family go all in on that attachment parenting, like Winnie Cooper and Blossom did.
he's taking issue with his Great Dad friend's decision not to accommodate Larry David's schedule. It's all about Larry David.
Its satire.
I don't think that being a "great Dad" requires constant attendance upon your child or children. Balance in life is important. My "children" are now in their late 40's.
I travelled a lot in my career; worked long hours even when I wasn't travelling--and was fortunate to be married to a stay at home mom. But when I was home, I was "at home" and involved with my two daughters. You don't have to "be there" for them all the time--but you have to be accessible when needed. Sometimes that meant taking a telephone call on the road, "Dad, I'm going to do this--what do you think?"
One of the most annoying PR campaigns of the past few years is the Fed's billboards all around my town instructing men how to be good dads.
The cultural signals I'm getting, from TV commercials, is that being a good dad requires dressing like a ballerina at some point. Basically, the message is that dads could improve by being more like moms.
Of course, with the very concept of fatherhood dying out in the West, PR campaigns aimed at men already living with their children seems like a way to avoid facing up to the un-face-up-to-able.
"Meet the basics, show a little love and you've just about maxed out your impact"
Thanks for getting me. I would add, in terms of "meeting the basics," provide, protect, instruct. For how-to advice, I'd recommend following Otto's 9:09 comment above.
Moms, if you want to fuck up your whole family go all in on that attachment parenting
In my parenting career (six kids over seventeen years) I have seen a lot of miserable families in which Mom has decided that they will all worship at the altar of The Children. She has decided that nothing matters but The Children so the parents are not allowed to have friends, stay in shape, enjoy hobbies, or spend any time alone. No energy or privacy for sex; one couple known to me has had their four year old son in their bed every night his whole life and the wife bit the husband's head off when he gingerly suggested he wanted his wife back. Awful, awful thing. Over the years I've had a lot of people in these kind of families confide in me their struggles with alcohol and porn addiction but can't seem to connect the dots as to why these coping mechanisms developed.
"Basically, the message is that dads could improve by being more like moms."
I have a different take: Dads can improve by taking opportunities to be fun and silly with their kids. Model a good sense of humor which, at times, can include self-mockery.
I understand this sentiment. My husband (who is a very "good dad" to three kids - ha) struggles to find any men to socialize with. He's had guys reach out to him to grab lunch, but because of his work schedule he can't do midday meet-ups. He's in turn suggested dinner, and been told, flat-out, that his friends will never meet for dinner ("never!") because that is Dad time. Imagine believing you could never have dinner with a friend again because you were a parent. Ridiculous! I'm a full-time stay-at-home-mom and I have a night out with girlfriends at least twice a month! There's a real masochism out there with fatherhood. In a lot of marriages I'm familiar with, the men are made to feel perpetually guilty about spending any time away from their wives and children. Time socializing, or playing sports, or even going for a walk or bike-ride is considered selfish and indulgent by their wives. Despite the fact that the wives prioritize socializing and self-care on the regular....
All great human deeds both consume and transform their doers. Consider an athlete, or a scientist, or an artist, or an independent business creator. In the service of their goals they lay down time and energy and many other choices and pleasures; in return, they become most truly themselves. A false destiny may be spotted by the fact that it consumes without transforming, without giving back the enlarged self. Becoming a parent is one of these basic human transformational deeds. By this act, we change our fundamental relationship with the universe — if nothing else, we lose our place as the pinnacle and end-point of evolution, and become a mere link. The demands of motherhood especially consume the old self, and replace it with something new, often better and wiser, sometimes wearier or disillusioned, or tense and terrified, certainly more self-knowing, but never the same again.
Cordelia's Honor (1996), "Author's Afterword" Lois Bujold
Also applies to dads
I agree with David. Over-parenting is obnoxious. Boomers became over-parenters in reaction to their under-parent parents. It became required to attend every child event, have birthday parties every year, design every vacation around the kids. I think it was George Carlin who said we made children gods.
The pendulum will swing back again, I’m sure, now that boomers are the Worst Generation.
Ahh, the one huge flaw with Seinfeld and Curb -- it's easy to be funny and lighthearted, arguing strenuously over trivial items, if you don't have kids to raise. But, for most people, raising kids is a big, satisfying part of life.
Overparenting is obnoxious. Don't over parent, and don't under parent either.
Nice quote, narayanan. I'll add: There is nothing more essentially "conservative" than becoming and being a good-enough parent.
In a way, I was lucky that my first husband/birth father of my daughter deserted me right before she was born. Hence, when I started dating the man I eventually married and who officially adopted her, she got to see us during our courtship years. She was part of most of our weekend daytime dates and saw our laughter, teasing, affection...being our best selves with each other. She was enveloped in that circle of love. The downside is that it set the bar so high for what a great life partner should be, she is still single.
I had a great childhood. A childhood where I had to spend all my free time with my parents would not have been great.
"Provide, protect, instruct."
That's being a dad. My dad... didn't instruct all that much. I think he may have been burned out by trying with my brother, who was 11 years older and kinda headstrong. (How headstrong? He was tired of being told what to do at home, so he joined the Navy at 16 in the early '60s.)
So, I did a lot of things different, and it worked. Son's just finished his first year of Pharmacy school, on the way to a doctorate. I think I did well enough...
"Attachment parenting is a parenting philosophy that proposes methods which aim to promote the attachment of parent and infant not only by maximal parental empathy and responsiveness but also by continuous bodily closeness and touch. The term attachment parenting was coined by the American pediatrician William Sears." Wikipedia
Attachment parenting does not necessarily include co-sleeping. But it does need to include protection of the infant from any and all abuse, trauma, or deprivation until about age 3—4. For many parents, very difficult to achieve.
"Completely understandable why Jerry modeled Costanza after him."
With David's cooperation and collaboration. They were co-creators and co-producers (and often co-writers) of the show, the characters, and the situations.
I have a different take: Dads can improve by taking opportunities to be fun and silly with their kids. Model a good sense of humor which, at times, can include self-mockery.
Why would you think American dads need to be taught to be silly? They've been doing that for generations. I think the gender-bending is motivated by something else.
" I think the gender-bending is motivated by something else."
I don't really know. You might be right.
He's a comic, everything he says is a joke. That said, Meade hits it on the head: have fun being a Dad or Granddad. The basis of every healthy relationship is a conspiracy, so you have to let them in on the jokes.
@J Farmer, No doubt that you'll reach your aspirations - and best wishes to you at the beginning of life's most important journey.
Remember through it all though, that not all of your child's successes are due to you. The same is true for their failures.
Not an excuse to do too little, but a warning about thinking you have to do too much.
Dad represents the outside world, Mom represents the self. You gotta know your role.
Spending time with the kids is important - a lot of it just "goofing off" time. But having the children spend time on their own is equally important to their development. And the relationship with your spouse is the most important interpersonal relationship in the family - don't ignore that. Having time for yourself is important for your health and the family's overall health. And yes - the Bible definitely has great wisdom on how to parent.
"Why would you think American dads need to be taught to be silly?"
Not all but some. In my 65 years, I've known quite a few dads who might have benefited from encouragement to be, from time to time, humorous, playful, and even silly, with their kids.
Ancient Persian nobles said a boy should learn three things: to ride, to shoot, and to tell the truth. With allowance for historical change, that still sounds pretty good.
My father died young; my older brother was troubled already and skidded off the track pretty early; I was born old and became older; my two younger brothers were much more rambunctious than I but eventually calmed down. All of us used and abused substances, my brothers all more seriously and extensively than I did, and at great cost.
But I remember much more good and fun about my boyhood, with lots of friends and room at the edge of the city, than bad. Much more.
We were solidly middle-class, and all except the youngest got bachelor's degrees or more (even Putz 1).
Narr
Ma spent fourteen years married and fifty-six as a widow. PBUH
If I were growing up today, both of my parents would have been arrested for neglect, and I and my oldest sister would have been in foster care. I was a latchkey kid from kindergarten until I graduated from high school. My parents left me home alone for a whole week at age 13. When my father worked 2nd shift, I could go weeks without seeing him awake. I played Little League baseball for 3 years, and my father saw me play two times. And yet, I had wonderful parents who raised 4 responsible, upstanding adults.
It's not an easy balance to strike but hugely valuable to aim to strike it and never give up: Sober but playful. Unconditional love but tough love. Pursuing self interest while encouraging your kid to do the same. And so on.
I suspect that 99% of what therapists hear after their patient exhausts "these are the terrible things my parents did or didn't do to/for me" is "I feel so guilty/ashamed for what I did or didn't do to/for my kid."
I recently became a dad and I am definitely trying to be a "great dad." Not because I have to, but because I want to. Trying to coax smiles and laughs out of my baby is the highlight of my day. And all the feedings and diapers and crying fits aren't so bad, either.
So I would much rather spend every bit of my free time with my baby than talking sports and other nonsense with my idiot friends over beers. When I leave the office, I rush home. Maybe that will change. But for now I don't even miss my friends.
"He's a comic, everything he says is a joke."
Yes. What he said could be translated into non-humor. Instead of "But I think I was a good dad. I wasn’t a great dad. The great dad... I can’t stand the great dad. They’re not even friends with you anymore. They’re so busy they don’t have time to get a cup of coffee. I can’t stand them. Go. Go be with your kid. Who gives a shit. So the great dads, they renounce their lives.... They bother me, the great dads," he could easily and less funnily have conveyed what I think is the real idea like this: "There's this idea of being a 'great dad' by putting all your time into your children and having no life outside of work and family, no friends. They could go out for a cup of coffee with me and they won't. They think they're so great, but it's not great. These are men who have renounced life and I don't think it's even that good for the kids, having a father like that."
Congrats, bleh! Enjoy every smile, laugh, diaper, and projectile vomit. You've begun The Greatest Human Adventure and it sounds like you know it.
Lots of predictable horn-tooting going on here, but
Parents Matter but They Don’t Make a Difference
"DNA is the major systematic force that makes us who we are."
For most of the 20th century, environmental influences were called nurture, because the family was thought to be crucial in determining environmentally who we become.
Genetic research has shown that this is not the case. We would essentially be the same person if we had been adopted at birth and raised in a different family. Identical twins reared apart from birth are as similar as identical twins reared together in the same family.
...etc...(everyone hates genes)
“Perfect fathers are rare.”
Good-enough dads are medium rare.
Thanks, Meade. It really is the greatest thing ever. It's transformative. We kept postponing this because we thought we weren't ready, and we were right. The people we used to be weren't ready for this. But we became different people, people who were ready for this, the moment we saw our baby for the first time.
If that's what he meant (AA @10:50am) then I'd amend my previous comments by adding "Nevermind". This would have been a shorter thread too - seems most agree with the sentiment in this explanation.
I may be guilty of projecting his character from Curb Your Enthusiasm onto the real person and this quote. Never liked that show and that character.
One of my favorite scenes ever from Curb: https://youtu.be/Y9RLQK_BbZg
Larry David is one of those comedians who constantly says things in such a way, its hard to know if he's serious or making a joke. This statement sounds like it could be a joke, but you'd have to see the video/audio to know.
@Jay Vogt:
@J Farmer, No doubt that you'll reach your aspirations - and best wishes to you at the beginning of life's most important journey.
Thank you.
Remember through it all though, that not all of your child's successes are due to you. The same is true for their failures.
Yes, I actually became quite convinced of that thesis myself after reading Judith Harris' The Nurture Assumption.
@Meade:
One of my favorite scenes ever from Curb: https://youtu.be/Y9RLQK_BbZg
First thing I thought about after hearing the news of Buckner's passing.
Not all but some. In my 65 years, I've known quite a few dads who might have benefited from encouragement to be, from time to time, humorous, playful, and even silly, with their kids.
Agreed. Silliness seems like a luxury to adults, and depending on how hard your life is, it might be just that. I always joke with my kids as a way for me and them to handle life on our terms. Look for the absurd in life and the whole thing doesn't seem as daunting.
Alright Meade, one great scene!
I don't treat my kids like they're the greatest things ever. I treat them like they're ... "okay."
Do the best you can, and hope for the best.
Had a friend in legitimate home daycare business a couple of decades ago. Became acquainted with a lot of nice middle class working parents and their cute kids.
Some of those kids now incarcerated, dead, and recovering drug addicts. Most are normal middle class with kids of their own now. Some millionaires and business owners.
Interesting how kids from the same family sometimes turn out completely different.
And, as mentioned above, Larry David is being satirical. Pretty much like his Curb your enthusiasm character.
Today’s great Dad pays for a good private school where Christianity is legal and discipline is semi-military academy.
Trump got that from his Dad. My son got that from me...Woodward Academy. It does make all the difference for young men.
CJInPA,
"Agreed. Silliness seems like a luxury to adults, and depending on how hard your life is, it might be just that. I always joke with my kids as a way for me and them to handle life on our terms. Look for the absurd in life and the whole thing doesn't seem as daunting."
Humor is a great stress/tension reliever, especially when used in situations that are decidedly not humorous.
"Humor is a great stress/tension reliever, especially when used in situations that are decidedly not humorous."
An exception ti that being in a "Labor and Delivery" setting.
I doubt he was even a good dad.
Curb Your Enthusiasm is apparently divisive. A no-laugh-track show that can be hard to watch. But let's not hate Larry David as if he unapologetically is the comically vile character he portrays.
I agree that dads shouldn't make excuses for avoiding adult relationships, which would anyway be to their kids' benefit.
"Why would you think American dads need to be taught to be silly?"
Some Dads are very reserved with their kids. When I was in high school, a Japanese exchange student visited us over the Thanksgiving holiday when her host family was traveling. She told me "I wish I had a Daddy." (I didn't realize I had been calling my Dad that.) She had a Father, but not a Daddy. Some girls don't have Dads who laugh and joke and talk, and who will play and be silly with younger kids.
@bleh
Parenthood is the best thing in the world. Full stop. (My husband agrees wholeheartedly.) But friendship needn't be in conflict with fatherhood. Friendship is a compliment to one's life as a Dad. Taking two or three nights a month to get away from the homefront without the baby, to watch sports and make jokes, and remember old times -- that's going to make you a happier and more balanced person, and ultimately a better father and husband to boot. Being a loyal friend isn't trivial or silly or a waste of time - it's another of life's great joys. Showing your daughter or son that Dad is a fun, loyal guy, a trusted confidante -- who has important connections outside of his nuclear family -- that's not subtracting from your parental relationship - it's enriching it.
Plus all of those "people's biggest regrets lists" -- abandoned friendships are almost always top of the list. It may seem convenient to ditch your friends now, but I truly believe you'll regret it later. Be the friend you hope your child will have someday! :)
I blame Harry Chapin.
My dad wasn’t a great dad, at least not by the definition being put forward here. He certainly didn’t abandon his friends in order to spend time with his kids. His friends were huge influences on me; we would work together, we would go fishing together, and I got to learn at a young age how men interacted together. Some of those friends later became my friends. If your kid doesn’t see you interact with your adult friends, he is going to miss out on some significant and important socialization lessons. And if, someday, the chips are down and you need one of those friends to stand by your side – who is going to show up? What will your children learn then?
By all means, teach your kids that they matter. But for the love of God don’t teach them that they’re the only thing that matters.
@Phil Yes exactly - well said.
Maybe the transcription was wrong: perhaps what he actually said was, "grey dads."
Meaning, ones who got so old they can't do things requiring physical stamina with you anymore.
Thank you Jessica, I think I like yours better.
I'm with Jessica (and others): your friends aren't (or shouldn't be) in conflict with "more important" parts of your life--they should be critical components in your own and your kids' development. I'm still close with guys I met in high school or earlier, and mourn the ones who are gone. (It seems to be the way it was in my time still, that children of friends don't tend to bond that closely, if at all.)
My wife and I have the (mostly my) old friends and their various spouse Mks., and separate sets of more recent friends in both cyber- (Howdy, I'm Narr!) and meatspace. We don't even try to mix the sets; just like neither of us has ever tried to play matchmaker.
Plenty of people lead healthy, happy, productive lives without ever marrying or having children; few do the same without friends.
Narr
In my experience anyway
@ Jessica
Oh, I agree with all of that. I don't intend to ditch my friends. In fact, I think it's very important for my kid to understand that I have a life of my own and other relationships that matter to me. I would never want to be one of those parents who's all over their kids and even considers themselves to be their kid's "friends." I firmly believe that too much devotion to your kids (if that's the right word) can be harmful.
It's only been a few months.
stevew said...
“Alright Meade, one great scene!”
Isn’t it?
Some Red Sox fans who can’t let go Billy Buck’s untimely error forget that Buckner belonged to all of us and we loved him for more than just his All-Star batting-titled grit and talent.
May he rest in peace
Some Red Sox fans who can’t let go Billy Buck’s untimely error forget that Buckner belonged to all of us
Who are these unforgiving Red Sox fans of which you speak?
Also, twelve championships since 2000 tends to soften the hardest heart. (Sorry you didn't live to see it, Grandpa...)
Dad to 4 year old son: You know, Boston doesn't win every year
Son: Yes they do.
Dad: ...
Sometimes the kid is the parent.
" I think the gender-bending is motivated by something else."
There are two uber-parenting ads right now that drive me crazy.
One is a Great Dad, who is teaching his daughter to shave her legs and he is actually shaving his along with her. Creepy.
One is a Great Mom, who is not having a migraine and instead is dressing up in pirate costumes, robot costumes, pushing her daughter in a wheelbarrow that looks like an old time airplane, running through the woods in another costume....I mean, it's just too much. It looks like a woman who kidnapped a child. Creepy.
Overall, yes, I've seen an uptick in the dads-dressed-as-princesses genre and I do think it is supposed to teach us all a lesson.
I think what Larry David said is funny. I *think* we used to see him at his kids' events in high school so I think he was pretty pretty good.
I don't really like the trend for *everybody* to have to attend all the kids school-day events. My husband is a wonderful father, and was when the the kids were little, but I was home with the kids and I was the one for whom they performed in the school concerts and field day, etc.
"Some Red Sox fans who can’t let go Billy Buck’s untimely error forget that Buckner belonged to all of us and we loved him for more than just his All-Star batting-titled grit and talent."
As a Giants' fan, I hated Buckner when he was with the DOdgers. But I would have loved to have him on "my" team!
In print, Larry David's speech patterns remind me of Trump.
I'm old enough to have lived (suffered?) through perennial Boston Red Sox mediocrity and failure leading up to 1986. Fans that actually paid attention knew that Buckner was a very good and accomplished baseball pro. They also knew that he contributed mightily to the Red Sox success in 1986. He didn't have a great post season, but he was pretty much hobbled by injured legs. The Red Sox re-signed him at the end of his career in 1990. He received a standing ovation from the crowd when introduced at Fenway. I don't know anyone that blamed him for that 86 loss, and I know a lot of Red Sox fans.
That video is hilarious, especially good to see Buckner having fun with it. RIP.
For some reason, even though I was 4 at the time, no one in my family follows baseball, and I've never seen a professional sporting event from beginning to end in my life. I knew about the Bill Buckner incident.
Bill Buckner played over 50% of his career with the Cubs. They didn't get to the post-season until they got rid of him. No walks, little power, a slow baserunner (due to a serious ankle injury years earlier) and the defensive range of a parking meter.
He was a tough SOB, known as a gamer. He got a raw deal from the media and some fans for the World Series error in '86. I'm glad he finally overcame that. May he RIP.
The lawyer son is doing very well. He just bought himself a $100,000 Toyota Land Rover. Everything that I did, he has done too, but has done it far better. We share a birthday and we actually like each other very much. Our only Father/Son problem was his struggle to get himself free to become himself. Scots-Irish families are strongly loyal to Fathers be they good, bad or ugly Fathers. He did that part of growing up out in Texas.
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