April 21, 2019

"Why Don’t Women Get Comebacks Like Tiger Woods?"

Asks Lindsay Crouse in the NYT.
The extreme qualities and the obsessive pursuit of success that drive [the ascent of high achievers] can lead to their downfall. The discipline and pressure can lead to addictions, the opposite of control. Obviously we saw that in Woods; following his descent grew excruciating....

Entering rehab in 2010 after accusations of infidelity, sex addiction and substance abuse, [Woods] said: “I felt that I had worked hard my entire life and deserved to enjoy all the temptations around me. I felt I was entitled.”...

Consider how swiftly the Olympic runner and nine-time N.C.A.A. champion Suzy Favor Hamilton was vilified after she was caught working as an escort while coping with mental illness....
Tiger was criticized for his transgressions (at least as much as SFH, as I remember it). But SFH never attempted a comeback. Maybe one reason Tiger could do it is that his sport was golf. You have more time to go through a long narrative of rise, fall, and comeback.
[Serena] Williams has surpassed her male peers and demonstrated the flip side of the extreme, confident and righteous qualities necessary to achieve success — she dared to get angry, and show it, when she opposed what she considered an unfair call at the United States Open last September.... No women have the leeway to behave like Woods and get away with it; a black woman certainly does not.
Tiger Woods is black...  so the race theory here is weak. I think people — especially white people — love and root for Tiger Woods even more — a lot more — precisely because he is black.
Women literally cannot afford to make the messy mistakes we see in the long arc of a lot of a storied male athletes’ careers, and they rarely get the payoffs.
Back to the gender argument. It seems to me, there's no one to compare to Tiger Woods — the ascent, the crash, the long time in the wilderness, the perfection of the big comeback win. You can't generalize to: Men can do that, women can't. Now, there's also the fact that people are much more interested in men's sports. But they're not so interested in golf. There are a lot of people who only care about golf to the extent that it's about Tiger. Who else has done that with a sport — made millions of people care about it only because of him (or her)?
“I’m no Tiger Woods,” Hamilton told me...
Yeah, you and everybody else on the face of the earth except Tiger himself.
Society rarely allows women to nurture those bold qualities that drive standout success. Instead, to get ahead, women either learn to stifle those instincts, or get punished for them. This muffles the traits that might lead to failure and inevitably also the qualities that lead to success. To be sure, some men are being held accountable for their bad behavior these days....
Shouldn’t everyone be able to recover from a fall from grace? Or at the very least, shouldn’t we allow both men and women to get high enough to fall?
Getting that high means beating everybody else. There's no way for the rest of us to "allow" that. Women already enjoy the allowance of playing in separated women's sports. Getting a comeback like Tiger Woods is something that's theoretically available for everyone, but who else could ever do it and who would even want that to happen to him (or her)? The argument for equality doesn't fly. We're talking about individual achievement here. You can dislike that adulation of the individual, but it's incoherent to demand equal access to it.

But it is true that we, the spectators, experience different emotions when we watch males and females. Is the author of the NYT piece trying to tell us we need to change our emotions and make them less about femaleness and maleness? Why should we do that? We're making a practice of watching different human beings as they perform physical feats. Why shouldn't our emotions have to do with gender? Why are we watching sports in the first place? I'd like to see a deeper analysis of the significance of sports spectating!

IN THE COMMENTS: RK wrote:
You don't get a comeback. You make a comeback. Maybe women are more inclined to wait for someone to give them something.
Yes, this is what troubled me most about this NYT piece. It really does undercut women by insisting proactively that women be given something no man was given. That's what's incoherent. The idea of equality doesn't work, because what's demanded for women is not something any man ever had.

216 comments:

1 – 200 of 216   Newer›   Newest»
madAsHell said...

Women, comebacks, and Tiger Woods? Beats me!?!?!?

Annie C. said...

Never heard of SFH.

Limited blogger said...

My mother loved Tiger Woods. She wouldn't watch if Tiger wasn't playing.

MadisonMan said...

I'm sure that SFH and Oksana Baiul are thrilled to have this complaining journalist remind everyone of just why they stopped competing.

rhhardin said...

Suzy Hamilton doesn't have a negative brand as far as I know. Being also an escort is fine, maybe even a plus.

traditionalguy said...

Tiger was smarter than all the women combined.He had a plan and worked his plan.

tcrosse said...

Why don't women get comebacks? Ask Roseanne.

Wilbur said...

Baby got back.

hawkeyedjb said...

If you do achieve a great comeback like Tiger, it's because you must have some gender privilege. Just wait until Caitlin Jenner makes his/her comeback.

Bay Area Guy said...

"Why Don’t Women Get Comebacks Like Tiger Woods?"

Is this limited to just golf? Stormy Daniels is making her acting comeback, which is nice.

Automatic_Wing said...

It's interesting, I don't remember Suzy Favor Hamilton being villified for whatever it was she did. In fact, I don't remember Suzy Favor Hamilton at all.

The Vault Dweller said...

In order to have a comeback story, you first need to sufficiently fall and have sufficient penance. In Serena Williams case, I don't think either of those occurred. When she yelled at and berated the judge it was bad, but it wasn't career ending, be forever shunned from the public spotlight bad. Also she didn't really experience sufficient penance. Part of penance means you need to accept responsibility for what you did and accept whatever punishment is meted out. In her case there was a large portion of the media and populace that was defending her throughout. What she did absolutely petty and unsportsmanlike but there was a chorus of people claiming SHE was mistreated and she should never have been penalized, people went so far as to attack those that rightfully called Serena out. There was one, I believe Australian cartoonist, who was completely villified for making a cartoon mocking Serena and her behavior and people tried to claim it was racist and she should be fired.

Compare that with Tiger Woods. There may have been people who had sympathy or pity for him, but no one tried to justify or minimize his actions. Tiger took the full brunt of social pariah status he had coming. If the author of the article thinks that women in sports don't get comeback stories maybe we first need to look to a culture that coddles women and defends or minimizes their transgressions. That being said, if the author of the article is interested in women getting a comeback narrative generally I wonder if she would consider Roseanne Barr?

Nobody said...

If women so badly want women’s sports watched, they could, you know, watch them themselves, instead of watching the live action Barbie Dollhouse shows like “Real Housewives of Wherever." And yet they don’t. One more woman tries to stand between the male gaze and the TV screen and whine “Look at me!” What Tiger does is to create beauty. Sorry the writer is blind to it.

Amadeus 48 said...

Yeah. I remember how much Tiger whined about how unfair everyone was being to him, and how many columnists like Lindsay Crouse leaped to his defense by claiming that people hated Tiger because he was a black man married to a white woman and Tiger's shame was America's disgrace, etc., etc.

No, I made that up. I remember sports columnists gloating about Tiger's pride coming before a fall, and how awful he had been to Elin. I remember Tiger's caddy Steve Williams, who had profited greatly by their professional relationship, turning on him. I remember Tiger stoically going through his crash, his divorce, his humiliation, his physical deterioration, and his resurrection on his own terms and without self-pity. I admired his stoicism and his inner resources that made him able to come back. Those used to be admired as masculine virtues, and some of us still honor them.

I rejoice in his Masters victory as a triumph of the human spirit over adversity.

Lindsay Crouse doesn't have anything to say to me.

RK said...

"Why Don’t Women Get Comebacks Like Tiger Woods?"

You don't get a comeback. You make a comeback. Maybe women are more inclined to wait for someone to give them something.

Nobody said...

Tiger also overcame a back injory that would have had most men on disability for the remainder of their lives.

campy said...

"You don't get a comeback. You make a comeback. Maybe women are more inclined to wait for someone to give them something."

Thread winner.

Hari said...

Tiger didn't get a comeback; he made a comeback.

This isn't an opportunity Tiger was given. It is an opportunity he made.

It's not like there are stories of other woman who have done similar turnarounds, but simply not been recognized because they are women. There aren't other too many other (any other) men out there with similar stories.

Finally, to put this in the classic (women good, men bad) framework, most women (other than Hillary) who make it to the top don't do incredibly self destructive things that cause them to fall from grace.

bleh said...

Apparently you can just make shit up to hector readers and get published in the NYT, as long as your made-up shit stakes out the correct position.

Danno said...

Competitive running is quite different than golf!?

Dust Bunny Queen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Roughcoat said...

Are we ready for the Elizabeth Holmes comeback?

Nobody said...

I remember a writer writing about how Tom Brady was just one more white Boston sports hero, and that New England could never accept a black man in that role, and yet, at the time, if you had had a vote for ‘King of New England’ it would have come out Big Poppy.

Start with a prejudice, ignore as many facts as necessary to make your case, selectively highlight others. It’s a tired old game.

chickelit said...

Woods didn’t “get” a comeback; he garnered it.

bleh said...

“If women so badly want women’s sports watched, they could, you know, watch them themselves, instead of watching the live action Barbie Dollhouse shows like “Real Housewives of Wherever." And yet they don’t.”

Sports fans (mostly men) should be force-fed a steady diet of Serena and the WNBA so that they can develop the proper sports viewing habits. Accomplishing pay equity at the US Open, despite the relative unpopularity of women’s tennis, wasn’t enough. Viewers need to have their attitudes ajdusted.

Amadeus 48 said...

Actually, if you want a comeback story in woman's sports, look at Lindsey Vonn. That woman did it the hard way. In a sport that is conducted at terrifying speeds, she suffered a horrific injury and was able to return for a while to the highest levels of achievement.

I think it is not a coincidence that she and Tiger were in a relationship for a while. She, too, is a stoic.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Whaaaa waaaaa waaaa. Sad Trombone.

Why does everything in life have be the launching pad for some sort of poor me victim-hood story? Men get 'better' comebacks than women. Boo hoo. Black men. Black women. Racism. Sob sob...unfairness. Why can't women get what men have....waaaa waaaa waaaa.

Instead of being happy for someone who made it "back" she wants to whine about...something...I couldn't read much of it before I hit the go back button.

People make mistakes in their lives and deal with them in individual ways. Some people try harder. Some people have better skills. Some people just don't want to try harder. Others don't GAF.

Tiger Woods didn't get a comeback. He made that and earned it.

Phidippus said...

Just another feminist-fabricated crock, a complaint looking for a transgression.

AA is completely right: Golf doesn't beat your body up the way running does.

OTOH, athletic "talent" (ability), which includes the ability to physically recover, is largely genetic in origin.

And, I recall reading, women who enter the military and try to meet the physical performance standards of the men generally fail by a considerable margin, and get injured much more often. (Solution: Different standards for women, what else.)

Biology? Or sexism?

Bill Peschel said...

This is laying the ground for an Elizabeth Warren comeback, isn't it?

Odi said...

The author missed out a huge comeback story for Monica Seles. She was the best woman tennis player in the world when she was attacked on court by a crazed fan. She was stabbed in the back with a 9 inch knife, and was unable to play tennis for 2 years. Going through a lot of rehab, she eventually returned to the court and won another major before having to retire. But, since her story didn't fit the narrative she's tossed on the ash heap and forgotten as a great role model for women.

Hari said...

Compare Tiger's work ethic during his comeback (endless hours of practice) with Hillary's work ethic during her chance for a comback in the last election (too lazy to campaign in key states).

rhhardin said...

Women are given things men aren't. Chivalry is about it. I don't know that an athletic career is one of the kinds of things they get, though. Especially from other women.

Though you may give her a ladies' tee, or a pawn advantage, or taking back a move, if it's acknowledging chivarly.

rhhardin said...

Nobody insists that Althouse be strictly logical, except her usual two detractors. That's what's wrong with their complaints, in fact. They don't understand where women fit.

rhhardin said...

Scott Adams is overexposed and has run out of insights as a result. Second career?

Nobody said...

Why are we watching sports in the first place? I'd like to see a deeper analysis of the significance of sports spectating!

Men watch sports for the same reason people look at fine art and read fine literature, enjoy opera and the movies. It’s about drama and excellence. Without the excellence, there is no drama. Then it’s just luck.

Women’s golf is simply not the same sport. Up until two years ago, the women were allowed to have their male caddies line them up for putts. They soften up the courses for the women to create conditions that would allow the men would beat the course like a rented mule. I am not just talking about distance either, they water the greens to make them more receptive. The excellence just isn’t there.

Phidippus said...

BTW, Tiger Woods is not "black". He is less "black" than Barry Soetoro, despite his somewhat negroid appearance. Look it up.

Woods was popular because he was an amazing, dominating, athletic prodigy-- for years!

His somewhat exotic appearance had nothing to do with it, except for those with some kind of racial-grievance axe to grind. Who regrettably are never in short supply in this country, thanks to the scab-pickers of the left.

With that rather unkind thought, I will give it up for this lovely Easter Sunday and turn my attention to more rewarding matters close at hand.

rhhardin said...

There's no LPGA seniors' tour.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

We spent a lot of time at drag strips in the 1970s. There was one woman who stood out and occasionally beat the guys. Shirley “Cha-Cha” Muldowney was good in a sport that few women excelled at. And she drive Top Fuel, the best of the best. She survived an horrific crash and she came back big time. They even made a Hollywood version of her story. And this was way before John Force had a bunch of girls that grew up to dominate. Muldowney was a true pioneer and genuine badass in her own right. She wasn’t as cute as Danica, so never got huge press. But she went way faster than Danica!

Nobody said...

It is kind of funny to watch the Golf Channel and hear them berate us viewers for sexism because we don’t particularly care for women’s golf. I watch it from time to time, but not for the same reasons I watch men’s golf. The same stuff is not on display. Molinari was playing an excellent match right up until he fell apart under the pressure in the final few holes of the Masters. That was something to see too.

Gahrie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gahrie said...

Women literally cannot afford to make the messy mistakes we see in the long arc of a lot of a storied male athletes’ careers, and they rarely get the payoffs.

Women's sports simply don't make any money. The WNBA loses millions every year. The most successful women's team in history the US women's national soccer team, has a small fraction of the draw the Men's national soccer team does, even though the men's team is middle of the pack at best.

Meade said...

“You don't get a comeback. You make a comeback”

Besides, haven’t we already given Hillary enough comebacks?

Jupiter said...

"That's what's incoherent."

It's called "chicksplaining".

bagoh20 said...

"You don't get a comeback. You make a comeback. Maybe women are more inclined to wait for someone to give them something."

That pretty much sums up the whole thing. Our culture has this snowflake thing now, where your failures are everybody's fault but yours, and your successes are all you.

cf said...

hardly needed to read the post, I just can't Help reading the headline without hearing a high, whiney Emily Litella style voice screeching it:

"Why Don’t Wehhh-men Get Comebacks Like Tiger Woo-oods??!!"

Sebastian said...

"she dared to get angry, and show it, when she opposed what she considered an unfair call at the United States Open last September"

If Tiger got angry that way on the golf course, challenging a ruling or showing up an opponent, it would hurt his reputation more than anything he has done off the course.

"It really does undercut women by insisting proactively that women be given something no man was given. That's what's incoherent. The idea of equality doesn't work, because what's demanded for women is not something any man ever had."

It doesn't "undercut" women. It's how women get what they want. The point of women-are-special feminism is that women must be given something no man was given. It's only incoherent if you take the actual idea of actual equality seriously. But no one does.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

That mean little Asian-American ruined Serena’s comeback. This chick can’t come along and change the narrative now. WTF?

James K said...

Jennifer Capriati had a pretty impressive comeback after first being a teen star at 14 or 15 in the early 90s. She all but disappeared in the mid-90s with burnout and depression, then came back in the late 90s to become number 1. Women’s tennis does make money, no doubt in large part because so many of the players look like super models.

Leslie Graves said...

The difference between SFH and Tiger as far as their available paths to a comeback is that SFH and Tiger picked sports with a vastly different scope of years available during which you can be at the top of the sport. SFH was a runner. She is now 51 years old. She was in her 40s when she took up her side gig in Las Vegas. She was far too old in her 40s to ever have a comeback in running.

Golf has a much longer effective lifespan. You can still be at the top of the game when you are in your 40s, as Tiger is now (he is 44).

There are plenty of ways that SFH could still have a life comeback and I hope she finds one of them. However, she can't do it in running.

Unknown said...

they don't get a comeback

because they never reached the same heights

Who is the female Tiger Woods?

gspencer said...

"because they never reached the same heights"

Just you wait. Trans*-golfers on the way.

*Trans = men dressing up as women.

buwaya said...

This is a remarkably silly article.
Its not incoherent, as it is intelligible, unfortunately.
It is just an idiotic, or insane, misunderstanding of reality.

Adulation comes after victory, not before.
One "comes back" by winning again.

Mark said...

Consider how swiftly the Olympic runner and nine-time N.C.A.A. champion Suzy Favor Hamilton was vilified after she was caught working as an escort while coping with mental illness..

Who vilified her? When did they vilify her?

Most people probably never even heard of this. But thanks Lindsey Crouse for exposing her failings to the world. Way to go in victimizing her yourself.

Nobody said...

Why don’t the women play the men in darts? They weigh just a few ounces and are thrown just a few feet.

Francisco D said...

Start with a prejudice, ignore as many facts as necessary to make your case, selectively highlight others. It’s a tired old game.

I am afraid that is what is taught in college classes, especially Journalism.

We have at least two generations of "well educated" children who lack the ability to think objectively. They have been given "facts" to memorize but not how to evaluate the veracity of those facts. They are also taught to advocate positions without knowing how to evaluate their positions.

holdfast said...

"Women already enjoy the allowance of playing in separated women's sports."

Yeah, no. Women's sports will increasingly be dominated by dudes in dresses. So you gals won't even have that.

Ken B said...

Aside from anything else, Serena Williams has emphatically not surpassed her male counterparts. She issued a challenge. A guy ranked 204 in the world accepted. He played a round of golf in the morning and crushed both sisters in the afternoon. Serena said she was stunned by the power of his volleys. She might not be in the top 500 players in the world.
And her tantrum was also bullying.

cyrus83 said...

The article is illogical at best. For any sort of comeback to occur, first there has to be a fall from the top and then there has to be an attempt to get back to the top. That can only come from the individual, and not everybody has the will to make that happen, let alone the ability. The problem today is that many people feel that the will to make something happen is tantamount to the ability to make it so, which is the source of a lot of confusion and nonsense.

Women incidentally will end up losing their allowance to compete just among other women, as it is only going to take a few thousand delusional men to feel they are women to completely dominate women's sports. One more example of the modern society following the fallacy of Volo, ergo id est.

holdfast said...

In almost all cases, female athletes are also-rans. People naturally want to watch the very best golfer, the very best sprinter, the very best hockey forward. Not the best one who happens to have XX chromosomes.

The exceptions are things like figure skating and gymnastics, where grace and style can be more important than raw power.

Big Mike said...

[Serena] Williams has surpassed her male peers and demonstrated the flip side of the extreme, confident and righteous qualities necessary to achieve success — she dared to get angry, and show it, when she opposed what she considered an unfair call at the United States Open last September.

Serena Williams may have won more majors than any man, 23 for her to 20 for Roger Federer, but plenty of politically incorrect male tennis stars have agreed that competing against men she’d be barely inside the top 200, if that. And a true champion accepts honest calls and doesn’t stage a hissy fit when an up and coming talent beats her fair and square.

Henry said...

Hope Solo.

rcocean said...

Tiger makes greatest comeback of all time. Women hardest hit.

You can't make this crap up. If you through out all the "what about women? whah, whah? "articles 25% of the MSM stories would disappear. Seriously, women sports figures behave women Engineers, Women Corporate Execs and Women Pols. They get overpraised, over-hyped, they work less, retire/quit early, and never think outside the box. What female golfer or Tennis player has ever come up with a new technique or method of playing a sport? Its always men who do that.

I'm all for women's equality, but in sports they aren't equal and they never will be.

Henry said...

Jennifer Capriati

whitney said...

Serena did not and cannot beat her male peers. The one time she tried she got completely trounced bu the guy ranked 203

Achilles said...

buwaya said...
This is a remarkably silly article.
Its not incoherent, as it is intelligible, unfortunately.
It is just an idiotic, or insane, misunderstanding of reality.

Adulation comes after victory, not before.
One "comes back" by winning again.



In order to be a leftist you must have a basic misunderstanding of reality.

reader said...

My husband and son did not like Tiger because he was rude (thank goodness it wasn’t because he was bossy - that would have been sexist). Then they were disgusted by Tiger. Last weekend was the first time my husband ever rooted for Tiger. My son had a date and just didn’t care.

Henry said...

Cris Cyborg

rcocean said...

Almost every sport was invented by men for men. No wonder women don't do as well. They're shorter, smaller, slower, and have a higher rate of injury. They excel at sports like Gymnastics or Figure Skating where factors other than strength and foot speed are of prime importance.

Of course sometime the male-female performance gap is just puzzling. For example, no woman has ever been #1 in pool or darts. And why shouldn't women skiers be as good as men? But they aren't. And there's no reason why Women shouldn't be equal in bridge, poker, or Scrabble, but even there the best players are usually men. Curious.

Henry said...

It's like Lindsay Crouse doesn't have Google.

rcocean said...

People keep labeling Tiger as "black". Tiger is NOT from the Ghetto and he doesn't self identify as an African American. Why should he? He's 1/2 Asian, and he's a Buddhist. And his father Earl Woods, was 1/2 White/Chinese/Native American. Tiger grew up - in then - Lilly white SoCal and married a Swede. He's not an African American from Durham N.C. or Detroit.

You just as easily say Tiger is the greatest Asian golfer of all time.

mockturtle said...

RK is right.

Yancey Ward said...

Well, as I was reading the post, I was tempted to write a comment early, but the comment highlighted about making a comeback versus being given one pretty much covered what I wanted to write.

Again with the Serena Williams horseshit- if Tiger Woods broke a club and publicly ranted and raved at a golf tournament official for making a ruling he didn't like, you can be quite sure that he would be raked over coals by everyone, and almost surely worse than Williams has been treated for that exact same behavior. I think it pretty fucking clear that women are more likely to get pass for boorish behavior. It only seems otherwise because men are more likely to displays such tactlessness.

rcocean said...

I've become a Tiger fan, after 20 years of being somewhat Meh about him. Its not just the great, gritty comeback. Its at age 43, the man has finally showing some class on the golf course. The pouty face, the cursing and club tossing, seems to have gone away. He still gets that "I hit a bad shot, and I'm going to cry" look, but even that has been toned down.

He's been to Hell and back, and its made him a better person. At least on the golf course.

AlbertAnonymous said...

“Society rarely allows women to nurture those bold qualities that drive standout success.”

What a crock of shit!

Women want to give that kind of power to “society” ? Let “society” decide what to allow them or not allow them?

Weak, lame. Playing victim again.

You want something? Grab it by the balls and make it your bitch! Otherwise, quit whining about what society won’t allow women to do.

Lloyd W. Robertson said...

It is so strange to make this a story about men getting all the breaks. Superstars, whatever their natural gifts, have to work hard to get to the top and stay there; it seems even more super-human to fall and then get back up there again. As our host says, Tiger is unique. Our local sports radio guys have said there is no other athlete who can cause people who don't like sports to drop what they are doing and tune in a sport: only Tiger, when there has been a headline that he is among the leaders in the final round of a tournament. Maybe Lance Armstrong was like this for a while.

Pianoman said...

I feel kinda sorry for Crouse. Instead of being inspired by Tiger's "I fall, but I get up again" story, she's decided to allow identity politics to be the Narrative.

Her blind rage against men is causing her to miss the real story.

Are women unable to take inspiration from Tiger in Crouse's world?

Yancey Ward said...

Just to finish- had Woods quit golf 5 years ago, we wouldn't be talking about him today, except that the essay writer might have used him as an example of someone who wasn't allowed a comeback because he isn't white, rather than using Hamilton in this same essay.

mccullough said...

Good point. Jennifer Capriati did have a comeback.

The NY Times will have to update its story and get rid of its strained comparison.

Compare Capriatti’s comeback to Tiger’s. Some similar personal issues.

mockturtle said...

rhhardin contends: There's no LPGA seniors' tour.

It's called the Legends Tour. Look it up.

rcocean said...

I actually sympathize a bit with Serena. Yeah, she was out of bounds for ranting against the ump - but you can't deny the backlash was stronger against her than it would been if she'd been a man. Girls are supposed to be nicer than boys.

rcocean said...

"It's called the Legends Tour. Look it up."

That's interesting. Does Nancy Lopez play?

Yancey Ward said...

Henry,

Yes! Jennifer Capriati! I mean, seriously, how ignorant does the writer have to be to not mention her. Seriously, Capriati's fall was public and far, far deeper than Woods' was.

Anonymous said...

Suzy Favor Hamilton? Really? To be honest, nobody outside of her family gives a shit.

It isn't sports but I'll give you an example of a famous female celebrity who made a successful comeback, Martha Stewart.

loudogblog said...

I just saw an article about Madonna's new album being a flop. I clicked on the VEVO video to listen to the new single and I didn't like it. Comebacks have to be earned by doing exceptional work.

William said...

Babe Ruth led a far more dissolute life than Tiger Woods, and he never had to make a comeback. No other athlete was able to excel in so many vices and still dominate his sport.. The Babe not only womanized but drank heavily and ate huge quantities of trashy food. Many here will argue that in the Babe's time, there were no porn stars and that screwing around with prostitutes is nowhere near as dissolute as having orgies with pornstars. While this argument has merit, it should be noted that the Babe fooled around with Lou Gehrig!s wife. If Tiger Woods had fooled around with his caddy's wife, this would be similar to but nowhere approaching the immensity of the Babe's sin. Even in the narrow area of womanizing, I would give the nod to the Babe.......We should honor the Babe not only for the things he did, but for the things he got away with, all the while dominating his sport.. Tiger Woods didn't away with hardly anything, and the distractions ruined his game.......I'm not sure of what the moral is of this little Easter Sunday homily is. I'm sure there has to be one.

MayBee said...

When Serena lost her seeding in the French Open because she took time off to have a baby, the whole world was supposed to be upset on Serena's behalf. It wasn't fair. (Serena got hurt and had to pull out after two wins) https://www.businessinsider.com/serena-williams-french-open-seed-criticism-pregnancy-policy-2018-5

Wimbledon decided to give her the higher seeding. The US Open decided they needed to revamp their seeding too.

So yes, perhaps women assume people are going to give them their comeback.

Serena has been through a lot, and she has had comebacks, and she is very celebrated. But if she wants to spend decades in the darkness to see if she can make a comeback like he did, she is welcome to try.

hombre said...

“Tiger Woods is black... so the race theory here is weak. I think people — especially white people — love and root for Tiger Woods even more — a lot more — precisely because he is black.”

What bullshit! People root for Woods because he is a great golfer with an engaging smile. By now, he has also done his “mea culpas.”

Yancey Ward said...

"but you can't deny the backlash was stronger against her than it would been if she'd been a man"

This is not true. I am old enough to remember McEnroe's problems- he was raked over for the same behavior in a much more punishing manner. What sets Williams apart from the men in tennis is that she is at the top of the sport behaving that way, the men in the sport who do this are basically nobodies in the sport. You don't see Nadal, Federer, Murray, or Djokavic behaving that way, but if they did, they would get it worse than Williams.

Sebastian said...

What's especially puzzling about the woe-is-women whine about sports is that it's so easy to fix by women: if women en masse tuned out male sports and en masse watched and attended women's events, female stars would be among the greatest. But women don't want to do that. It's "society's" fault.

Serena actually is lucky: tennis is the one sport where some men care to watch women play. Well, one of two sports.

MayBee said...

I mean, complain about Serena's Wimbledon attire and you are misogynist and racist. How can anybody complain about Tiger's comeback and think Serena somehow is on the short end?

Yancey Ward said...

"Serena actually is lucky: tennis is the one sport where some men care to watch women play. Well, one of two sports."

Gymnastics? Beach volleyball?

Hagar said...

They used to write about Tiger that he was the hardest worker in golf except for Vijay Singh and about Vijay that he was the hardest worker in golf except for Tiger Woods.

buwaya said...

If a man had done what Serena Williams did, everyone would have agreed with the umpire and let the whole thing pass. As it would have for Williams, had the feminist press not tried to make a politico-cultural controversy about it.

Sebastian said...

By the way, question for sports fans: which female athlete came closest to matching the best man in her sport?

Sure, we'd have to debate how you'd measure the gap and how you'd standardize the measures across sports, but still: some female athlete had to be relatively the greatest, right? So, who?

William said...

In the good old days you could lead a dissolute life, but the downside was you died young. The grave is the ultimate penalty box.......Denny McLain never made a comeback, but he found redemption. Maybe Denny McLain is a better Easter story than Tiger Woods,

Big Mike said...

but you can't deny the backlash was stronger against her than it would been if she'd been a man.

@rcocean, I certainly can deny it. So can any other reasonable person.

Darrell said...

Hillary got a comeback after trying to Mao a health care plan and refusing to comply with a judge's order for transparency--almost earning her jail time. The judge didn't want to be the first to jail a First Lady. She got an unearned Senate Seat and a turn as SoS and a Presidential run. And hundreds of $Millions in uranium money from selling taxpayers' assets.

Megaera said...

Dara Torres does not quite fit the crash/burn-to-comeback model but is an interesting story: swimming, like gymnastics, has tended to be a sport where both males and females burn out quite early and --barring a couple of extraordinary outliers -- there are not a lot of recurrent world-class residents of the victory podium in the long term. Torres has been in 5 Olympics, winning gold in at least one event in each of them, and was the oldest woman on the US team in several. Not a Phelps-type star, sure, but her achievements over time in a sport that is not kind to older participants are significant.

rcocean said...

"The Babe not only womanized but drank heavily and ate huge quantities of trashy food."

OMG the Babe ate hot dogs! Honestly, this Babe Ruth was boozer and a fatso is a big myth. Yes, when he got past 35 Babe Ruth had a slight pouch on him. Before then, he was going to the Gym and working out.

Ruth was born in 1895, so there's very little footage of him before 1930. And no, he wasn't a big drinker. He liked his brewski's but didn't drink anymore than Willie May, Mantle, or Henry Aaron. As for his "Womanizing" - give me the proof. One thing we do know about Babe Ruth, he never took a steroid - or a PED - in his entire life.

robother said...

To be fair, women bitching until some man gives them something is a pretty effective strategy in most marriages. Being on the receiving end of this dynamic may even explain why high-achieving guys like James Pritzker and Bruce Jenner decided to come back as a woman, not even waiting for the next lifetime.

hombre said...

“[Serena] Williams has surpassed her male peers ....” Seriously? By what standard? Great women tennis players have generally dominated because of lack of great competition. Serena is no exception. It is unlikely that Serena could defeat any of the men competing on the professional tour.

Does anyone write for NYT who is not delusional?

rcocean said...

"@rcocean, I certainly can deny it. So can any other reasonable person.'

Oh come now. MacEnroe and Nastastie did stuff that was 5x Worse. And some people attacked Johnny Mac, but others were defending him, and admiring him for "Playing the umps" or being a "bad Boy".

hombre said...

Soon, one of the male pros will identify as female. Serena’s reign will end.

The Drill SGT said...

1. Golf is different.

2. men define themselves universally by their work. Thus a man would strive more to recapture his glory days.

3. Women try and fail to recapture their younger beauty.

Big Mike said...

Women already enjoy the allowance of playing in separated women's sports.

But for how long? Biological males who claim to identify as women are already dominating women’s sports whoever they show up. An individual who went through puberty as a biological male already has a huge head start on individuals whose puberty involved developing breasts and their first menstruation. When those individuals compete as biological males against biological females, their advantage is insurmountable.

n.n said...

Sex, male or female; gender, masculine or feminine, respectively; and other differences. Diversity or color judgment, denying the dignity of the individual.

Bruce Hayden said...

“Actually, if you want a comeback story in woman's sports, look at Lindsey Vonn. That woman did it the hard way. In a sport that is conducted at terrifying speeds, she suffered a horrific injury and was able to return for a while to the highest levels of achievement.

I think it is not a coincidence that she and Tiger were in a relationship for a while. She, too, is a stoic.”

I was thinking of her too, but she never dominated again like she did before her big crash. She was already showing her age at that point, and a lot of people wondered why she was even trying. As with a lot of sports, the women peak younger than the men. In the skill events (SL and GS), in ski racing, women seem to peak not long after their teenaged years. Speed events (SG and DH), where Vonn dominated, peak later, but for women not that much later. Guys can carry it into their early 40s there, but women don’t seem to be able to. Before her big crash, people were already wondering if Vonn was on her way out, and there is a possibility that that big crash was a result of her taking just too many chances, at an age when her body wasn’t up to it, chances that she wouldn’t have had to take a couple years earlier to maintain her dominance.

On the other hand, maybe, ski racing careers are often ended by crashes and the consequential injuries. One good friend of mine whom I raced with in HS and lived with summers in college, went pro young, and was surprisingly competitive. We watched him decisively beat triple gold medalist JC Kelly head to head, on parallel courses, maybe 8 years after Kelly’s Olympic feat. But we then watched him catch a tip on a gate, break his leg, and never end up in the money after that, retiring to teach skiing in Steamboat (for teammate Billy Kidd) a year after he had tried to come back. Injuries are inevitable in that sport. Probably more frequent in the skill events, but more traumatic and catastrophic in the speed events. Think of hitting anything at 70-80 mph, even a frozen mound of snow, or your skis not releasing quite fast enough. Not surprisingly, it isn’t usually one injury that ends a career, but a cumulation of such over a career, and this wasn’t Vonn’s first injury, just her worst.

Bill Peschel said...

This reminds me, Cathy Guisewite resurfaced with an interview in The Cut. Groundbreaking in her time, now she's seen by "some critics" as an example of "compromised feminism." I guess in part by portraying her character / Mary Sue as conflicted by the feminism's promises and how it collides with biology and human nature.

https://www.thecut.com/2019/03/the-feminist-paradox-of-cathy-guisewite.html

Yancey Ward said...

"By the way, question for sports fans: which female athlete came closest to matching the best man in her sport?"

I think you would have to define the sport down to distance Olympic events, and probably the longer events in running or swimming- if you are talking about performance. My vote would go to Katie Ledecky, which, of course, is going to make most people draw a complete blank.

Judged on success at a high level of visible sports- then I go with Serena Williams.

Hari said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gspencer said...

To qualify as a "has been" you once had to have been a "once were."

Simon Kenton said...

On women's sports: in shooting we don't have shorter distances and lengthened times for the ladies. It's just shooting. At the nationals I once shot a 100-6X in 60 seconds. Standard rapid fire sequence: at the command, drop into sitting position, fire 2 shots, do a speed magazine change, fire 8 more. Basically a 2.5" group roughly centered, at 200 yards, iron sights. Very fine score - for the likes of me. Next relay a young woman shot a 100-10X, a 1.5" group so perfectly centered in the X ring that there was equal space all around it. She beat hell out of me. Out of pretty nearly everyone of the thousand or so competing in that match that day.

Yancey Ward said...

MacEnroe and Nastastie did stuff that was 5x Worse"

Actually, no they didn't- they did the same things as Williams and suffered the same or worse penalties for doing them. Even the last comparison doesn't hold- Williams had just as many defenders as those two- probably more. The older two certainly had fans like Nascar fans who show up just to see the wrecks.

walter said...

As an escort, she likely had a cum back.
Did the article mention Tiger's multiple back surgeries?

BJM said...

I'm going out on a limb here, but maybe men and women are different and trying draw analogies between their strengths and weaknesses does both a disservice.

I don't admire Serena's behavior on court, it's a poor example for young players. I also found McEnroe equally tendentious. Playing the sport by the rules and not cursing, whining or throwing hissy fits doesn't seem to be an unreasonable standard of competition.

The political activists, PC bullies, crybabies and whiners are ruining sports...it's almost as if by plan.

Bill Peschel said...

"No other athlete who can cause people who don't like sports to drop what they are doing and tune in a sport"

Michael Jordan?

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

The left (NYT + Democracy die in darkness media) are all about participation trophies.
It's universal.

KheSanh 0802 said...

Whine! Whine! Whine! How about recognition of someone who has managed to stay at the top of her field into her sixties and been an incredibly positive role model all that time: Joan Benoit Samuelson.

Tiger's comeback was a great feat in a sport that is relatively physically undemanding. Joan Benoit did not need to make a comeback she stayed on top.

Sebastian said...

"I think you would have to define the sport down to distance Olympic events, and probably the longer events in running or swimming- if you are talking about performance. My vote would go to Katie Ledecky"

Ledecky WR in 800M: 8:04. Men's WR: 7:32.

I'm no expert, but I wonder how female snowboarders would score against the men -- Chloe Kim vs. Shaun White. I'd venture the gap is a bit smaller there.

rcocean said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mockturtle said...

By the way, question for sports fans: which female athlete came closest to matching the best man in her sport?

Babe Didrickson Zaharias?

rcocean said...

On women's sports: in shooting we don't have shorter distances and lengthened times for the ladies. It's just shooting. At the nationals "

Yeah, and some 22 y/0 200 Lbs woman could probably beat me in a boxing match. So what? We're not talking about ALL men being better than ALL Women at ALL Sports. We're talking about the Best men and the Ben women and the Average Man and the Average Woman.

I wish I had a dollar for every-time some guy showed up on the internet and said, "well, Woman X beat me (or some other guy) at Sport Y".

Darrell said...

I invite Suzy Favor Hamilton to send me pics and articles of her clothing as she wishes. It's a start, as I always say.

jimbino said...

Marlene Dietrich famously bounced back several times after her boxing career in the late 20s.

Joe said...

"Why Don’t Women Get Comebacks Like Tiger Woods?"

Because women are given a pass and don't need one?

rcocean said...

"Babe Didrickson Zaharias?"

She's the only woman to make "the cut" at a PGA event.

Curious George said...

"Consider how swiftly the Olympic runner and nine-time N.C.A.A. champion Suzy Favor Hamilton was vilified after she was caught working as an escort while coping with mental illness...."

She was a huge failure in the Olympics, and no one cares about NCAA track champions. And she was an escort. She was a whore.

JAORE said...

By the way, question for sports fans: which female athlete came closest to matching the best man in her sport?

C'mon.... too easy....Bruce/Kaitlyn. He was the greatest athlete in the world way back when. Can't get closer than Bruce and Kaitlyn.

“Society rarely allows women to nurture those bold qualities that drive standout success.”
Does this Society dude/dudette hang out at the gym and snap a towel at women so they stay home? Or trip them just as they are about to run a record time? The list of women who have has "standout success" are legion.

Big Mike said...

I remembered Suzy Favor Hamilton chiefly for her iconic Nike commercial. But if you check out her record, she was an outstanding middle distance runner when competing against other American women. She was very good, but not great, when competing against the world.

And it's an unfortunate truth, that runners, not matter how good, who do not come home from at least one Olympics with a gold, are quickly forgotten. Ask Alan Webb.

Curious George said...

Suzy Favor Hamilton could be the Comeback Whore of the Year.

Rory said...

Nothing said about baseball in this thread is fact.

rcocean said...

Can Tiger win 19 majors and beat Jack's record? I'm skeptical, but its possible. Very few golfers win Majors after the age of 43, but Tiger has shown that he's sui generis. He's in great shape and if his back holds up, he could easily win another 4 majors before the age of 59.

walter said...

Darrel,
She's still for hire: http://suzyfavorhamilton.com/

rehajm said...

[Serena] Williams has surpassed her male peers

Yeah. How exactly?


I also demand full credit for loving the LPGA, ladies.

buwaya said...

Suzy Hamilton was a very good looking young woman.
Perhaps that contributed more to her popularity in her day than any athletic prowess.
Tiger Woods was, well, rather plain even when young.

Guildofcannonballs said...

...If you wanna be like Tiger Woods
Poking all the holes in the neighborhood
Tell your wife how it's gonna be
Your driver is community property

If you wanna be like Tiger Woods,
Brett Favre did it, so you know you could!
Become the king of your neighborhood
Like Steel Panther and Tiger Woods
Just like Tiger Woods! Oh yeah yeah
Songwriters: Darren Leader / Ralph Saenz / Russell Parrish / Travis Haley
Just Like Tiger Woods lyrics © Kobalt Music Publishing Ltd.

Yancey Ward said...

Sebastian,

I am discounting minor sports altogether. However, make your case in snowboarding with details- I couldn't really find any for this sport.

Here is the 1500 m in swimming: Sun Yang 14:31 Ledecky 15:21. Additionally, Ledecky's time would have beaten the best man just 44 years ago. I can't find another record where the women's record is that close in time beating what the mens' record once was (but still looking). Even judged on the percentage difference in times across events, I can't find anyone who is that close to the concurrent male record holder as is Ledecky.

rcocean said...

"Tiger Woods was, well, rather plain even when young."

Well, plenty of ladies have wanted to play on that green, if you know what I'm saying.

Curious George said...

"It is unlikely that Serena could defeat any of the men competing on the professional tour"

No, it is impossible. It's improbable that she could beat any male high school state champion.

Lurker21 said...

It helps that in a sport like golf, you can be middle-aged and still compete on a championship level. In other sports the time window isn't as big.

Also, she's generalizing based on far too small a sample. The number of woman athletes who have publicly misbehaved and scandalized themselves is not that large. It doesn't happen or it doesn't get reported. Tonya Harding, sure. She didn't make a comeback - it was up to her to make one, and she couldn't - but neither did she get ejected from the sport. If Nancy Kerrigan or some other athlete was a "homewrecker," it didn't hurt their careers.

Stories like this write themselves, though. Sooner or later, everything in the news is subjected to a race or gender angle. It's an easy way to generate content. I have to say, though, if the Lindsay Crouse who wrote this were the actress who was married to David Mamet, she'd have plenty of reasons to hate men, but it's not her.

Darrell said...

She's still for hire

I would need a comeback. Or a government voucher.

Lurker21 said...

When all top-level female athletes are transgender, will any of this matter (assuming it matters now)?

gadfly said...

Women do have comebacks "like Tiger Woods" - every 11 years. Can we get over the female pity parties?

Yancey Ward said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Big Mike said...

I think what Guildofcannonballs is trying to say is that when you're rich and famous there are plenty of women who throw themselves at you. In fact, they even let you grab them by the pussy.

fivewheels said...

"Chloe Kim vs. Shaun White. I'd venture the gap is a bit smaller there."

Not really. If you watch them side by side, you'll see that women, even Kim and Maddie Mastro, get much less height off the lip, which offers less time for tricks. The stunning highlight of Kim's run was her two 1080s, which no woman had done in competition. White's run that year featured back-to-back 1440s. A full revolution more, or 33 percent more impressive.

walter said...

buwaya said...Suzy Hamilton was a very good looking young woman. Perhaps that contributed more to her popularity in her day than any athletic prowess.
--
She had a sort of squeaky (cheese) clean, all-American Wisconsin girl image up until the reveal.
I could have sworn she was in those "Got milk?" milk mustache campaigns, which would err..peg the irony meter. If she was, I can't find a pic of that on the web.

Big Mike said...

The left (NYT + Democracy die in darkness media) are all about participation trophies. It's universal.

When he moved out of our house, my son threw all of his participation trophies in the trash.

Alex said...

In the last 11 years, Tiger has had to endure:

4 surgeries after his 14th major in June 2008 and multiple rebuilds of his swing to get here. Also people forget he was 2013 PGA Player of the Year, #1 ranked and won 5 titles. This 'comeback' is not as amazing to those of us who have followed pro golf all this time.

heyboom said...

So technically, Tiger is more Thai than anything else since his mother is Thai. It's that one drop rule apparently.

Yancey Ward said...

Alex,

Of course, you are correct about the 2013 campaign, but he looked seriously washed up and dead in the water in 2017- I mean, he was playing so bad he would not have made many cuts in the 2nd tier professional tour.

fivewheels said...

Suzy Favor Hamilton got off easy (ba-dum-bum) by going on women's shows to talk about sex addiction and portraying herself as a victim. She escaped what should have been the nasty headlines like "Former runner turns street walker" or "Olympian mounted".

Alex said...

Yancey.. the point is for the general public it's being spun as a 10-year comeback while for the golf watchers it's more like a 2-year comeback. Whatever sells more fish wrap...

DavidD said...

When do we get to stop making everything about sex characteristics or skin tone?

walter said...

Thaiger

BJM said...

Sebastion said "I'm no expert, but I wonder how female snowboarders would score against the men -- Chloe Kim vs. Shaun White. I'd venture the gap is a bit smaller there."

Male athletes have longer and larger bones, which provide a clear mechanical advantage over female athletes. The increased surface and larger structure of male bones provide them with a greater leverage and a wider frame on which to support muscle and ligaments.

OTOH, female athletes have a wider pelvis and a lower center of gravity, which may provide better balance in a sport like snowboarding. Female athletes can develop comparable lower body/leg strength, but are more prone to ligament and tendon injuries in lower body centric sports.

The one element that is the same for both is the drive and will to win, so women should compete very well in the sport against men.

mockturtle said...

Tiger Woods was, well, rather plain even when young.

Perhaps but he has a natural grace and elegance and a well-built body that make him stand out in a crowd.

mockturtle said...

PS: There's more to a man's physical attractiveness than a pretty face. ;-)

TRISTRAM said...

I never really cared for Tiger. My idea of an extreme, redemptive (literally) comeback, is George Foreman. From the loss to Ali, to salvation, becoming a preacher, them Heavy Weight champ again. Oh, and amprduct pitch man.

The Drill SGT said...

"KheSanh 0802 said...
Tiger's comeback was a great feat in a sport that is relatively physically undemanding. Joan Benoit did not need to make a comeback she stayed on top."

I saw her win the First Olympic Marathon in 84. The real drama was in the finish of the Swiss Gabriela Schiess.

That was epic determination

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=732235673793158

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fen said...

Society rarely allows women to nurture those bold qualities that drive standout success"

RK has the heart of it. Men do not wait for Society to greenlight those bold qualities. In fact, men often thrive DESPITE Society.

Why are "empowered" women always needing someone else to lift them out of something?

mockturtle said...

RK has the heart of it. Men do not wait for Society to greenlight those bold qualities. In fact, men often thrive DESPITE Society.

Why are "empowered" women always needing someone else to lift them out of something?


Exactly so, Fen. This kind of perpetual whining is one thing that holds women back. That and the fact that they know that they just can't cut it. To paraphrase Shaw, those who can, do. Those who can't, whine that it's someone else's fault.

Jim at said...

Did Tiger threaten to shove a golf ball down the throat of an official?

I must've missed that.

caplight45 said...

RK said:
You don't get a comeback. You make a comeback.

That’s good on the day we celebrate the greatest comeback ever.

Go Jesus!

KheSanh 0802 said...

@ the Drill SGT

The finish showed a lot of courage , but I am not so sure it was the responsible thing to do to let her continue. I am sure you have had all the same heat exhaustion/heat stroke training I have and you know that the line between living and dying can be pretty thin as the body - and brain- temperature gets into the 100's. Certainly would have been a tough "command decision" to take her off the track and put her in a bath tub of ice, but I think it would have been the correct one.

rcocean said...

Yancey.. the point is for the general public it's being spun as a 10-year comeback while for the golf watchers it's more like a 2-year comeback. Whatever sells more fish wrap...

True, but...lets look at the record book. Tiger won 13 Majors from 1999-2008. And then he got injured and didn't win another one until 2019. in 2013 he came in 6th in the British Open and then his record for the next 15 majors was 4 finishes 17th to 60th. And 11 DNP or Missed Cuts.

If you look at the Majors from 2009 to 2017, you find that Tiger was in contention in the British Open 2 TIMES, 2 times in the USPGA, and 2 Times in the US Open. He's been gone a long, long time.

This was a guy found by the side of the road in 2017, stoned on Pain killers. No one - i repeat no one - thought he would come back and win a major. Everyone thought it would be a miracle if he played competitive golf again. Most thought Tiger would retire after his "chip yips". And yet here he is....
T

Paul Ciotti said...

Althouse: "I think people — especially white people — love and root for Tiger Woods even more — a lot more — precisely because he is black."

But Tiger isn't "black." As he himself has said numerous times he is half black and half Thai. In spite of this most people consider him black. I don't know what they are thinking. Are black genes more important than Thai ones?

In this country we let people choose their own sex. The LA Times began calling Bruce Jenner a "she" the second he declared he was a woman trapped in a man's body. If we can do that we can certainly let Tiger choose his own race--half black and half Thai.

Fen said...

Hang on a sec...

"[Serena] Williams has surpassed her male peers"

What?

Alex said...

How many games would peak Serena take off 37 year old Federer?

The Drill SGT said...

@KheSanh 0802 said...

It was agonizing to watch. I know the Swiss coach was consulted as well as three different Olympic docs in the oval.

mockturtle said...

That’s good on the day we celebrate the greatest comeback ever.

And we await His even greater comeback in the future.

hawkeyedjb said...

"How many games would peak Serena take off 37 year old Federer?"

None. There is such a great difference between men's and women's tennis. I remember hearing the story of GHW Bush's sons beating a couple of world-class women tennis players. I doubt the Bush boys would have been remotely competitive against professional men.

Fen said...

MacEnroe did the same things as Williams and suffered the same or worse penalties for doing them.

And the public response was much worse back them. Serena gets cut some slack because her courtside antics were normalized by MacEnroe.

Tennis was my thing as a kid. I was good enough to be ranked top 20 at age 14 in the Dallas Leagues. At the level where if you missed a day of practice it showed. I coulda been a contender, but then "girls" happened and I lost all focus. :)

In our tennis world you were either a Jimmy Connors or Bjorn Borg. MacEnroe (spit!) was regarded as a disgrace and treated the same way we treat Chuck here.

walter said...

Thaiger is trapped in a black body. Works for Mock' ;)

hstad said...

Sorry AA, I just had to reproduce this entire paragraph - which is false! ".....Yes, this is what troubled me most about this NYT piece. It really does undercut women by insisting proactively that women be given something no man was given. That's what's incoherent. The idea of equality doesn't work, because what's demanded for women is not something any man ever had.....

You haven't been looking in the right direction - Transgender Sports, where former Men are given new roles, like beating every woman in Track, destroys your argument. The noise now coming from female athletes about Transgenders in their sports will destroy this entire Transgender narrative.

Sebastian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sebastian said...

@Yancey: "Ledecky's time would have beaten the best man just 44 years ago"

I like the metric. Will have to look in track records as well.

I take fivewheels' point on snowboarding.

mockturtle said...

Fen reports: I coulda been a contender

I coulda been a contenda

One of my favorite movie scenes.

Sebastian said...

Hey, Yancey: Yelena Isinbayeva set several pole vault records that would have been men's world records less than 44 years before (but perhaps with a lighter pole?).

Most of the relatively best women's track records appear to lag by about half a century.

Greg Hlatky said...

The current women's world record in the mile is 4:12. That was the men's record a century ago.

PB said...

Tiger is 1/2 black. Obama is 1/2 black. I'm pretty tired of this one-drop nonsense.

n.n said...

Tiger is 1/2 black. Obama is 1/2 black. I'm pretty tired of this one-drop nonsense.

They are also African-American or 1/2 American under diversity policy. Here's to progress.

MartyH said...

When it comes to sports, women may equal men at the limits of human endurance. Not a fifteen minute swim. Not a 24 hour run. There are not many events to prove the hypothesis, but consider:

Diana Nyad set the world record for long distance swimming (102 miles in 27 hours) in 1979.

Seana Hogan came in second overall (IIRC) one year in RAAM, a coast to coast bicycle race that requires crew support. She was consistently a top finisher for several years.

Lael Wilcox won the Trans America Race in 2016. This is a self supported 4400 mile coast to coast bike ride.

And, of course, proportionally more women than men survived in the Donner party.

Again, small data sets but the physical gap seems to close the longer an event goes on.

stlcdr said...

First of all, boo-fucking-hoo.

I'm seeing a trend: women appear to whine and complain about their own failure (for example, being fired from a job) is someone else's fault, or sexism, or racism, or anything other than themselves.

Men fail all.the.time. Some are better at dusting themselves off and trying again, and trying as long as it takes to succeed. There's no one crying a river over a mans failure, and quite rightly so. Why should it be different for women?

The 'failure of equality' isn't men holding women back, but women holding women back.

Scott M said...

Did Tiger play the race or gender card after he "fell"? Because Serena played both. Very few people that enjoy sports will root for whiners.

PackerBronco said...

The bottom line is simply that few people really care about women's sports, so their storylines are not given the same attention as their male counterparts.

Michael Fitzgerald said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ipso Fatso said...

Here is a woman who deserves another chance: Roseanne Barr. When people like author start advocating for her get back to me.

n.n said...

few people really care about women's sports

Surprisingly, that is true of both men and women. The former, perhaps because men empathize with the aggressive orientation of male athletes, and the latter for the same reason, that is masculine gender attributes.

Michael K said...

Yelena Isinbayeva set several pole vault records that would have been men's world records less than 44 years before (but perhaps with a lighter pole?).

My roommate was the last guy to set a world record with an aluminum pole. After that they were all fiberglass.

Don Bragg. And his sister set a world record for women that stood for 25 years.

He played Tarzan in a movie, I think. Nice guy.

Charlie Eklund said...

In regard to actress Lindsay Crouse not having been in a film or a show for 5 years, I would point out that she is 70 years old and largely retired.

libertariansafetyguy said...

Tiger is coming back from not one but three life altering career killers: Sex addiction, opioid addiction, and major surgeries including torn ACLs, bad shoulders, and he has 3 fused lumber vertebrae! Any one of those challenges would have ended most careers. He got through all three.


Fans were not quick to forgive him for the sex addiction. Golf is quite conservative and he lost a lot of fans in 2008 when the sh!t hit the fan. But, today I saw something at my country club I’ve not seen since 2008 - people wearing Tiger Woods golf hats.

I was a Tiger fan before the collapse and continued to root for him to come back. Here’s how I look at it - if some gave me $100,000,000 at age 21, how would I have ended up? And, if I can’t guarantee I would have been well behaved, how I can I judge him?

ALP said...

Louis CK was not allowed a comeback. Because he's a ginger? Are gingers lower on the victim scale than women?

stutefish said...

It should be noted that Both Serena Williams and Tiger Woods are Nike-sponsored athletes. They're marquee names for the biggest sportswear company on the planet. Williams has a building named after her at Nike HQ. Tiger Woods has a *convention center* named after him at Nike HQ. Regardless of race, gender, or anything else, these two people were going to get all the support they could ever need, for a comeback or any other damn thing they wanted to do.

Narayanan said...

Once you accept "Feminism" can you make comeback as WOMAN

Steven said...

The core problem with the article is the failure to notice the objective reality.

Tiger's comeback was not primarily a social phenomenon. It was winning his first golf major after ten years of not winning. If he'd lost the tournament, nobody would be talking about his comeback.

If Serena Williams went ten years not winning a tennis major, and then won one, I assure you everybody would talk about her comeback, too. If Annika Sörenstam came back and won an LPGA major now, thirteen years after her last, she might not make quite the headlines Tiger did (Tiger was a uniquely media-dominant player in his prime), but she'd get definite notice, too.

JamesB.BKK said...

Tiger Woods is half Thai. That lineage may just as well explain his discipline and mechanical skill. He is loved because he is good at golf. Not because he is black.

wwww said...

The article has it wrong. A woman could come back from a sports failure.

But I doubt the public would be quick to forget that a mother with young children had committed adultery and was drug or alcohol addicted while caring for young children. PR can fix a lot. Could a good PR person could fully rehabilitate that situation? Maybe, maybe not.

Unknown said...

"We're making a practice of watching different human beings as they perform physical feats. Why shouldn't our emotions have to do with gender? "

Yes, men and women are different, and we certainly look at men and women differently. Duh. Or am I being sexist? (Hey, let's throw in homo- and transphobic while we're at it.)

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