April 15, 2019

North rose window.



From "Stained glass — rose windows" (Wikipedia).

112 comments:

Inga...Allie Oop said...

My God, the loss! The workmanship involved in this magnificent stained glass window...

MayBee said...

It breaks my heart.

MayBee said...

When I took my parents through Notre Dame, my dad just kept saying, "And they didn't even have cranes!" I loved the beauty, but the engineering minds in my family loved the human achievement of it all.

jwl said...

Genesis 3.19 - "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

My ardent Catholic grandmother just let me know the City of God continues on and buildings are irrelevant, ashes to ashes dust to dust is normal run of things.

Earnest Prole said...

An important lesson: declaring a no-news day prematurely may make the gods cranky.

gilbar said...

GOD doesn't live in the Church building; he lives in the Church. And, Alas; the Church of France died long ago.

eddie willers said...

"And they didn't even have cranes!"

The Romans had cranes.
I don't know how long it took the Gauls to catch up.

etbass said...

I've seen it, thank the Lord. And have my own photos.

Ice Nine said...

The rose windows were the first thing I thought of as I watched Notre Dame burn. And my heart was breaking. They are so magnificent. But have they been lost? I haven't heard that news. In fact I heard someone on France24 saying that it was thought they could be saved. Does anyone know? I want to grok them again.

Roughcoat said...

Generations pass away, and others go on since the time of their ancestors.
They that build buildings, their places are no more -- what has been done with them?
I have heard the words of Imhotep and Hardedef,
With whose sayings men speak so much, but where are their places now?
Their walls are crumbled, their places exist no more
As if they had never been.

-- Ancient Egyptian lament during the societal upheavals at the end of the Old Kingdom

Quaestor said...

When I took my parents through Notre Dame, my dad just kept saying, "And they didn't even have cranes!"

A site about Medieval cranes with contemporary illustrations and a modern replica.

Quaestor said...

ISIS may have had no involvement with today's tragedy, but not for want of trying

Nor should we forget some people who did something.

William said...

Look on my works the mighty and despair. Everything is transient, but you hope that something that beautiful lasts forever. The Church was built to memorialize what is beautiful and eternal about the soul of man and now it's gone.

jimbino said...

Crown of thorns rescued? Jesus will be spinning in his grave.

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

narciso said...

well he did speak of the time, only 30 some years after his passing when the temple would be rubble,

gspencer said...

Because the building is appreciated by so, so many across the world, many of whom see it as an important building, though not so much as a church, there'll be a great outpouring of $$$ support to restore the church building to the greatest extent possible. The great mounds of debris will be carefully sifted to find as many of the original parts as possible. ND has been studied and documented over the years. There are blueprints (Sacre Bleu, I meant bleuprints), maps, charts, video and photographic evidence, measured drawings, and more. Reproducing destroyed or missing parts can be done. Of course the church building will undergo great change, not the least will be seismic bracing of the walls and a new roof of fire-resistant materials. If won't look exactly like the original, but architects, engineers and art historians will be able to come up with a really good result.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

YT - Kenneth Clark's Civilisation ep 1 part 1

rhhardin said...

Rita Vrataski: My middle name ... is Rose.

Edge of Tomorrow (2014)

Yancey Ward said...

I am of the opinion same as gspencer- the money to rebuild will probably dwarf what is needed. Notre Dame will rise again.

Original Mike said...

Meh - It will be a reproduction.

Yancey Ward said...

Many cathedrals were damaged in Germany during WWII, and they were all restored and are magnificent today (I have seen many of them personally, though not Notre Dame).

Fires and damage are a part of any long term building's history. This fire will be part of the history of Notre Dame.

Quaestor said...

...there'll be a great outpouring of $$$ support to restore the church building to the greatest extent possible.

Sadly, I doubt this will happen any time soon, perhaps never. Much of Europe, France especially, has lost the will to live. The loss of Notre Dame de Paris will be seen as portentous by future historians.

Ken B said...

Yancey and those confident it will be rebuilt ... by what architect? A Frank Gehry cathedral? An I M Pei pyramid?

Yancey Ward said...

Costanza?

Yancey Ward said...

The thing has been restored repeatedly since the first cornerstone was laid. It will be again.

Seeing Red said...

When I was there, we were told there were colors in that window that could not be duplicated. They don’t know how they did them.

Tragic.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"Meh - It will be a reproduction."

Yes, as tragic as the loss is, everything has it's time. Unless the majority of the structure is intact, let it go. A copy would be grotesque, no matter how much it resembles the original.

Original Mike said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Original Mike said...

Oh, if the will is there I think they should rebuild it. But the emotional impact of the original will be absent.

BlackjohnX said...

Allah Akbar!

tcrosse said...

The cathedral at Reims was shelled and then burned during WWI. Restoration started in 1919 and continues to this day.

Quaestor said...

HoodlumDoodlum, did you notice the Panther?

Mark Matis said...

Thank God that this did not happen on a Saturday, or they would be blaming the Gilets Jaunes...

paminwi said...

Maybe Trump can buy it!
Rebuild it at great savings!
He'll negotiate a great deal to redo the stained glass windows.
Notre Dame de Trump!
(I hope you all know I am being silly!)

Two-eyed Jack said...

Ken Follett's Pillars of the Earth is a fun read about a Cathedral burning and being rebuilt in the high middle ages.
This is a shocking loss.

Yancey Ward said...

"I hope you all know I am being silly!"

And yet...........

Vance said...

Isn't this Cathedral likely about the same status as the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem is to Muslims? One of the top three Christian sites there is?

So if the Muslims did destroy it, wouldn't we be in the rights to bulldoze the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem and give it to the Jews to rebuild their Temple? Or can we demand the Haiga Sophia back?

Of course, that would have to be done over the screaming of the left... we all know that Inga, et. al. would be on the side of Islam and demanding that no one be punished for burning down Notre Dame if it does come out it was Muslim fanatics. Remember how the left universally condemned all Trump voters for New Zealand? It was American Trump voters and Trump himself 100% at fault, every last single one of them. You can be sure that not a single leftist will blame any Muslim at all, no matter how guilty they are, even if caught on video with a torch and an industrial size book of matches leaving Notre Dame 1 minute before it went up.

Rory said...

This place has been endlessly studied and catalogued. It should be possible to rebuild.

MayBee said...

Thank you, Quaestor!

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“...we all know that Inga, et. al. would be on the side of Islam and demanding that no one be punished for burning down Notre Dame if it does come out it was Muslim fanatics.”

We all know Vance is a hysterical ninny.

TJM said...

Inga,

LOL - engaging in projection much?

Narayanan said...

France will need les peuple des Gilets Jaune for the rebuild and graduates of
École Polytechnique.

NOT Sciences Po.

Let's see who steps up.

They clearly cannot build to Code Bruxelles.

Interesting frictional time ahead.

TMJ loves Inga said...

I’m so obsessed by Inga, I just can’t stop talking about her, when everyone else is concerned about Notre Dame burning down. We must bring Inga into every subject!

CWJ said...

Isn't it lead that hold the panes together? I can't imagine any such window surviving the heat of a fire.

Karen of Texas said...

Something my daughter made me aware of. 250-500 tonnes of lead was vaporized into the air. The ceiling tiles were made of lead. Besides the tragic loss of the history, the art, the architecture (I studied the Cathedral in 8th grade for a class project and this window took my breathe away even then.), there is an environmental tragedy happening as well. People, especially young children, babies, and pregnant women, should not be out breathing what is going to settle back onto the streets, buildings, water and land around there. You think the water was an issue in Michigan...

Narayanan said...

Being officially atheist it will be interesting if Macaroni speaks to/for the nation.

Tank said...

Regarding the cause, we are at a point where there is no reason to believe anything the government or media tell us. Sad but true.

Seeing Red said...

Macron has his hand out. Wants international help to rebuild.

Trumpit said...

Some people make a living telling lies. Some real lulus. I put preachers and politicians in that category. Notre Dame may have cultural, artistic and historic significance, but being a church, it is a house of lies, or as my friend Frank calls them, "voodoo shacks." I would not rebuild it; I'd turn the place into something into something more serious, or even fun than a house of inquisition and other past horrors.

Michael K said...

Many cathedrals were damaged in Germany during WWII, and they were all restored and are magnificent today (I have seen many of them personally, though not Notre Dame).

The cathedral at The cathedral at Ypres was badly damaged in WWI but the rubble protected the lower parts of the building. It has been rebuilt.

there is a photo of the present day cathedral here.

YoungHegelian said...

It looks like the damage was not as bad as had been first feared.

Original Mike said...

That would be awesome.

YoungHegelian said...

@Trumpit,

, but being a church, it is a house of lies, or as my friend Frank calls them, "voodoo shacks." I would not rebuild it; I'd turn the place into something into something more serious, or even fun than a house of inquisition and other past horrors.

Well, if you & your buddy Frank weren't such historical illiterates, you'd both know that the French Revolution did exactly that, turning Notre Dame & Chartres into "Temples to Reason".

And ya know what the oh-so-reasonable believers in secular reason then went & did? Well, those deplorables out in the provinces saw things differently than did the Revolutionaries in Paris, and so the Revolutionaries marched out their armies and in La Vendee murdered about 120,000 of their fellow Frenchman.

You really are too much of a stupid fuck to hold your opinions as tightly as you do.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

not all muslims have done/said the following:

-The 800-year-old Basilica of St. Denis was heavily vandalized recently
-"Bataclan attack was just the beginning"
-an average of 3 church attacks in France per day
-12 churches in France have been burned/vandalized in a week
-Friday, a female jihadi's car bombing was foiled outside the cathedral
-'smiley faces' on facebook re: fire

confirmed no construction workers at the time of fire.
Not all Germans were Nazis

narciso said...

It does suggest a pattern, of possible behavior.

Anga2010 said...

It can be rebuilt!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRTmfvI68U

cf said...

Earnest Prole said...
An important lesson: declaring a no-news day prematurely may make the gods cranky.

i was a newspaper editor during 9/11. my recollection is that the dog days of summer -- reporters have to beat the bushes to find stories, the usual meetings are dark and all the usual names are on vacation anyway, and there are JUST. NO. Stories. to report -- my recollection is that lull of dull for the news had held on into early September and was going on that workday morning, too.

let us agree to Never need to worry or wish for more news.

Big Mike said...

If Muslims were involved in this tragedy, and I hope that they aren't, it will not be the first time Muslims wantonly destroyed important symbols of a competing religion. Go research the Bamiyan Buddhas.

Bob Boyd said...

If Muslims were involved in this tragedy...

would French authorities reveal it?

Trumpit said...

"Temples to Reason" is an oxymoron. A history lesson from you isn't worth the toilet paper you write them on. You clearly use human waste to scribble your inanities. And your nasty comment, "You really are too much of a stupid fuck to hold your opinions as tightly as you do," merits deletion as coming from a foulmouthed troll.

narciso said...

Anti clerical movements like the French Russian and Mexican revolutions can be bloody affairs the last claimed a million lives

Michael K said...

Arabic documents and gas tanks next to Notre Dame. Hmmm.

narciso said...

As we found with the wtc, they only stop when their mission is accomplished.

YoungHegelian said...

@Trumpit,

"Temples to Reason" is an oxymoron.

Take it up with the Jacobins, clown.

I'm sorry, Trumpit, but after the 20th C, where atheistic regimes who claimed they were following the "science" of Marxism murdered 100 million of their own citizens, any atheist who thinks that somehow secular moral reason is such an easy thing if only we didn't have those stupid believers to contend with deserves to get told repeated & publicly that s/he really is a stupid fuck.

Bob Boyd said...

@ Michael K

Date on the linked article is Sept 8, 2016

FullMoon said...

Arabic documents and gas tanks next to Notre Dame. Hmmm.

Not sure that is related, but the article is an eye opener about terrorism in France.

And predicted to become worse.

FullMoon said...

Date on the linked article is Sept 8, 2016

Now 99% sure it is not related.

William said...

In the Middle Ages, we would have blamed witches. Nowadays we look for Muslms. We're looking for some sort of guidance--it can be either human or divine--in the affairs of men. The sad fact is that the universe is governed by luck and random chance. It was probably some welder's spark smoldering in some crevice of ancient timber. A cathedral full of smoke and fire signifying nothing. Malign purpose is more comprehensible than bad luck.......,Remember that afternoon 66 million years ago when an asteroid struck the earth and most living things died. Shit happens.

Original Mike said...

Wishcasting William.

William said...

I don't fully discount the possibility of Hillary's involvement.. She lost the Catholic vote. She's a vengeful woman. The fire happened in France so that gives her plausible deniability. Diabolically clever these witches.

Trumpit said...

"If only we didn't have those stupid believers to contend with." From your foul mouth to Dog's ears. My Dog will smartly ignore your non sequiturs like I will. Those "stupid believers" helped elect Trump. I rest my case against religion and you.

Bob Boyd said...

Related to the article linked above by Michael K at 9:29 PM
One of the foiled attackers was sentenced to 8 years in prison on Friday




narciso said...

They believe on to death, what Is our motivating principle by comparison economica self esteem?

buwaya said...

It is surprising, even to me I guess, that I don't see Notre Dame as a religious object. It is a cultural and artistic artifact of France (I saw it once, hurriedly, almost 40 years ago). I think thats how the modern French see it, most of them, and that was mainly true even in 1900, or perhaps 1870, or, in Paris, 1789. The Catholic Church has more or less been using it rent-free, but its not really theirs since the secular state took over. The prevailing "religio, mores, cultura" to cite my old school motto, was no longer in line with the old stones. Its not quite like some US Evangelical sect renting mall-space for their Sunday service, but its not that different either. Its belonged to the tourists, the travelers, the academics more than to the Church

There are very many like it in that category, of art, regardless of its unique features. Art is unique, and yet not unique. Its certainly not something to worship.

The Church is not its churches. It is Francis Xavier (who had been to Notre Dame) ringing his bell on the shores of Asia.

narciso said...

True, but it civilizational, btw the fellow shemp Smith silenced is the one who saw through the al durrah hoax in 2000, that fed the 2nd intifada (I would say 6th* but ymmv)
*1920, 29, 36, 47,

buwaya said...

And as for Trumpit, I suspect something along the lines of Mark 5:1 is going on.
Not an unusual condition these days.
Too many cases, too few exorcists.
Exorcists tend to be very busy men.

buwaya said...

It is I think permissible to pray for the possessed.
There are so many of them now, far more than the physically afflicted, many more than the simply poor and hungry.

Towards their deliverance from torment.

buwaya said...

I find it an interesting comparison, Notre Dame and Francis Xavier.

It is one thing to create magnificence for God. Regardless of the cost, there is honor in it, that even ones enemies have to respect, to a degree, as beauty is beauty.

But its something else again to be silly for God.

Josephbleau said...

I can’t believe that the site of Napoleon’s coronation has been reduced and denied to the ages.

narciso said...


Wonder what they'll say about this:

https://images.app.goo.gl/wan1CRBUheJhWwWb9

stephen cooper said...

buwaya -

I am a Christian, and most of my fellow Christians do not want to know what I know:
all my life I have been surrounded by people with little love in their heart, most Christians can not say that, because everybody wants to be around nice people. Maybe I was stupid but it did not work out that way for me, year after year, decade after decade, my companions in this world had little extra love in their hearts .....

and do I think they are bad people for having little love in their heart ----


of course not.

I wonder what bad thing happened to them that they wanted to go through life selfishly, and my heart breaks to think that they were mistaken, that they did not know they had the easy option of just being likeable..

God loves ugly people, God loves mean people, just as much as he loves you, if you are kind and handsome,

don't ever forget that, my friend.

wholelottasplainin' said...

Let Richard Dawkins and the (dead) atheist Christopher Hitchens gaze upon this tremendous cultural loss, one the entire civilized world mourns, and jeer at us for our superstitions and Sky Gods.

What enduring wonders have atheists ever brought forth, I ask?

wholelottasplainin' said...

Josephbleau said...
I can’t believe that the site of Napoleon’s coronation has been reduced and denied to the ages.
*****************

You must be a recent college graduate.

It shows, asshole.

Drago said...

wholelotta: "What enduring wonders have atheists ever brought forth, I ask?"

The record for biggest mass murder of fellow citizens in the history of the world looms large as the obvious answer to your query.

Not to worry though, it was done for the "best" of reasons and for those murdered citizens own "benefit"....

wholelottasplainin' said...

narciso said...
True, but it civilizational, btw the fellow shemp Smith silenced is the one who saw through the al durrah hoax in 2000, ...
**************

Maybe so, but Shemp was right to shut him down for having no evidence to support his speculation.

(I dislike Shemp very much, but in this case he couldn't let the insinuation be made. Good for him. You want to start a race war based on no evidence? )

narciso said...

It's an opinion by someone who has seen the media actually put forth a hoax which fed the intifada, it's entirely possible that karsenty has a better perspective than ole miss's village idiot.

ngtrains said...

But Nap I was coronated there in 1804.

I don't understand the comment

Fen said...

Trumpit: "Some people make a living telling lies. Some real lulus. I put preachers and politicians in that category. Notre Dame may have cultural, artistic and historic significance, but being a church, it is a house of lies"

Extend your logic to the World Trade Center.

Or the Washington Monument. Or the Lincoln Memorial. Do they have it coming too?

For someone with such a hatred of religion, you readily attribute human features to inanimate objects. You have found the edifice to be corrupt and have judged it needed to be cleansed by fire.


Ken B said...

Nothing Chuck, or Inga, or Ritmo has ever said is remotely as despicable as this, from a commenter over at Coyne's, in response to Notre Dame:

the only church that illuminates is a burning church

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2019/04/15/notre-dame-severely-damaged-roof-collapses-cathedral-may-be-forever-lost/#comment-1724396

This is how much of the Left thinks, especially I am sad to say the atheist left.

Fen said...

Quaestor: "Sadly, I doubt this will happen any time soon, perhaps never. Much of Europe, France especially, has lost the will to live. The loss of Notre Dame de Paris will be seen as portentous by future historians"

We're on the same track. It appears that the French didn't try too hard to save it.

narciso said...

Indeed but they didnt even care on those geounds:
https://interestingengineering.com/the-39-greatest-constructions-of-gothic-architecture-in-the-world

wholelottasplainin' said...

After 800 years, Notre Dame cathedral isn't about religion.

Most of the millions of people coming from all over the world each year to marvel at it don't come to celebrate Christianity.

It's about architectural beauty, amazing feats of engineering, and the eight hundred years of history that happened inside its walls and without.

But especially it's about the impulse among humans to build lasting and beautiful things they hope and believe will transcend their short human existence.

I'm sure that's what the builders of Notre Dame were thinking.

It's a sad day for the world.

narciso said...

Then we come back to this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1117982913990025216

Limited Perspective said...

buwaya said...

"I guess, that I don't see Notre Dame as a religious object. It is a cultural and artistic artifact of France."

The building was started in 1160 and mostly complete about one hundred years later. Christians labored to build it and worshiped there for 700 years before the modern age. I appreciate that Christians wanted to build places of beauty to remind them of God. I also appreciate Christians who take over a dilapidated strip mall to invite ordinary people to belong to a community and gather for a simple worship service. Both are very Christian.

I guess this clown can only see a tourist attraction.

Kevin said...

This reminds me of the movie Titanic, where the woman rejoins her fellow travelers at the end along with the ship they took across the Atlantic.

People build things that outlast them, but those things don't last forever. At some point they return to the Earth to be reunited with the thinkers, builders, and craftspeople who made them.

We can enjoy their works for some time, but at a certain point we are reminded they are only on loan and the world we inhabit is one we must largely make ourselves.

If we truly value Notre Dame, we will have to take the effort to make our own.

Otherwise it becomes a piece of art, once held but now lost to the ages.

Fen said...

Christian Europe has bent over backwards to appease Islam. Why am I expected to champion people who won't even defend themselves?

This wasn't a tragedy, it was negligence and incompetence. People are sad when they should be angry. It was a fire, not two aircraft used as JP5 incendiary bombs. You say we have forgotten how to build that, I ask when did France forget to put out a fire?

etbass said...

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/04/notre-dame-survives-mostly.php

walter said...

Maybe narc' could manage a brief synopsis. As opposed to sending viewers elsewhere to decipher?

Ken B said...

I keep seeing reports arson has been ruled out as the cause. How? No one has even seen the fire site. The exact point of origin has not been identified or examined. No investigation has been done.
I expect it is an accident resulting from restoration work but it’s just dishonest to say arson can be ruled out.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Third Jihad? They said it, I didn't.

Crazy World said...

This tragic event makes me even more appreciate my King of Kings Church and school that was such a big huge part of my life. Blessings

Ralph L said...

Narciso's 11:50 link has a pic of Rheims labeled as Notre Dame. Worth looking at anyway.

interestingengineering.com/the-39-greatest-constructions-of-gothic-architecture-in-the-world

rhhardin said...

Notre Damp

wendybar said...

The Rose Windows were saved!!! https://www.wpsdlocal6.com/2019/04/16/rose-windows-of-notre-dame-are-safe-but-fate-of-other-treasures-is-unclear/

rhhardin said...

Prepared caption for the next Paris car barbecue: the hatchback of notre dame

rhhardin said...

I worked with a guy whose hobby was stained glass. Apparently they exist.

Nobody said...

Williams’s essay reveals how and why the pathetic weakness of UK (and European) Christianity has left a vacuum that Islam is prepared to fill.. - via Insty

I am not of a religious frame of mind, but this has always seemed true to me.

Nichevo said...

Ken B said...
Nothing Chuck, or Inga, or Ritmo has ever said is remotely as despicable as this, from a commenter over at Coyne's, in response to Notre Dame:


Traditionalguy: hold my Scotch-Irish Presbyterian Calvinist Jack Chick beer

Michael K said...


Blogger rhhardin said...
I worked with a guy whose hobby was stained glass. Apparently they exist.


There are lots of stained glass shops that give classes. My wife made one that was very nice, The question I had about the cathedral was the lead framing that holds the glass. Maybe it did not get hot enough just there.

Michael K said...

Its belonged to the tourists, the travelers, the academics more than to the Church

When Mass was being said, the inner area was closed off with screens so the tourists could continue to walk around the periphery and look at the walls and crypts. Inside the screens it was quite nice and the service was impressive.

Curious George said...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6926807/Devastating-aftermath-Notre-Dame-inferno-leaves-world-mourning.html

Kirk Parker said...

"It was probably some welder's spark smoldering in some crevice of ancient timber"

Yep. Always a lot of welding involved in repairing ancient wooden rafters.