Althouse: "Mexico has one gun shop. So why all the murders?"

March 20, 2019

"Mexico has one gun shop. So why all the murders?"

Asks BBC.

Short answer: It's the U.S.'s fault.

New question: Can't Trump use this in his argument for his wall?

87 comments:

Big Mike said...: Short answer: It's the U.S.'s fault.

Specifically, the Obama administration actively supplied guns to the cartels via “Operation Fast and Furious.”

New question: Can't Trump use this in his argument for his wall?

Silly woman, of course not! According to Democrats there is no good argument for the Wall.; 3/20/19, 7:28 AM
rehajm said...: Poor Obama. All those people who think he's a sham. You have to allow criminal activities to take place, monitor them so you can gather evidence to eventually prosecute those individuals

Why can't people recognize how wise this man is in his own time?; 3/20/19, 7:30 AM
rehajm said...: New question: Can't Trump use this in his argument for his wall?

He could and likely will. However the narrative of MSM will be: The United States is Mexico's gun shop.; 3/20/19, 7:31 AM
Henry said...: New question: Can't Trump use this in his argument for his wall?

Nicely done.

Here's the next bit from the subtitle of the video:

US weapons are feeding the crisis in Mexico - as is a high demand for drugs in the US.

More ammunition for Trump.; 3/20/19, 7:34 AM
Mark said...: The United States has no heroin shops, and yet heroin is all over.; 3/20/19, 7:35 AM
Heartless Aztec said...: Drugs are smuggled north.
Guns are smuggled south.
And it's done in fast and furiously in both directions.; 3/20/19, 7:36 AM
traditionalguy said...: There not a Trump's wall, just like there was never an Eisenhower's D-Day. In each case the Commander is sending the American military to defend us. It doesn't become Trump's wall because the Pretender President Pelosi wants an MS-13 armed force brought in and put into position to kill any armed American Citizens that try to resist.; 3/20/19, 7:38 AM
daskol said...: The US incarceration rate has increased and yet crime rates are on the decline.; 3/20/19, 7:41 AM
Henry said...: The United States is Mexico's gun shop.

There is some truth to that, just as there is some truth that a more impermeable border would help.

U.S. gunmakers manufacture some 10 million guns a year. There are well-documented supply lines of guns from the South to the North -- from states with less restrictions on gun purchase to states with more.

Calls from the left for outright bans on various guns are insanely counterproductive. Hand-waving about private gun sales and gun show loopholes is nonsense.

What I do support is a state-by-state effort to legislate permit-to-purchase. Of course, this is too tame for the left, and too draconian for the right.; 3/20/19, 7:41 AM
Jersey Fled said...: Funny how all of those illegal drugs get into Mexico somehow on their way to the U.S., but guns use a completely different supply chain and can only get into Mexico from the U.S.; 3/20/19, 7:42 AM
Marek said...: If they want a wall to stop guns from getting into Mexico, they should pay for it.; 3/20/19, 7:42 AM
Henry said...: Mark said...
The United States has no heroin shops, and yet heroin is all over.

Touche.

The U.S. has a big demand for drugs and that's the U.S.'s fault.

Mexico has a big demand for guns and that's also the U.S.'s fault.; 3/20/19, 7:42 AM
traditionalguy said...: IIR Drug Cartels are known to smuggle things across borders. The tunnels go both ways and the empty submarines need a cargo going back.; 3/20/19, 7:47 AM
Meade said...: "The US incarceration rate has increased and yet crime rates are on the decline."

Fox Butterfield, Is That You?; 3/20/19, 7:48 AM
Kevin said...: Lack of gun shops doesn’t keep people from getting weapons?

Tell me more.; 3/20/19, 7:50 AM
AllenS said...: With the massive profits from the drugs, the Mexican cartels can and do buy all kinds of guns on the international market. We don't have fully automatic weapons in the US for sale, but the Mexicans have no problem buying them elsewhere.; 3/20/19, 7:51 AM
Darrell said...: A thorough study some years ago showed that the majority of the weapons come in from Central and South America--much cheaper than US guns. Heavy weapons used in African civil wars are sold dirt cheap to sailors on cargo ships and sold in Mexico. Too many players are involved in those African wars supplying weapons.; 3/20/19, 7:52 AM
Big Mike said...: What Darrell and AllenS wrote.; 3/20/19, 7:56 AM
Ralph L said...: I believe the majority of our murders are related to the drug trade, and we know where the drugs are coming from.; 3/20/19, 7:56 AM
Ray - SoCal said...: The military type weapins favored by the cartel don’t come from the us or that one gun shop. Grenades, machine guns, rocket propelled grenades, etc... not to mention silencers used in assasinations.

Best article I found:

Mexico's Gun Supply and the 90 Percent Myth
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

Amazing how many articles at fact checking sites don’t mention fast and furious...; 3/20/19, 7:57 AM
Hagar said...: Probably need to read the small print.
Some years ago it was pointed out that most of the guns whose origin could be identified came from the U.S., but that the majority of guns confiscated in Mexico actually were unmarked and unidentifiable guns floating around on the international market.; 3/20/19, 7:59 AM
Darrell said...: The Left/Democrats are trying to revive the narrative that the Fast and Furious Gunwalking scandal was meant to support. That narrative was meant to lead to outlawing guns in the US.; 3/20/19, 8:00 AM
Ralph L said...: I believe my last comment snuck in immoderated with the Whoops! page. I've hacked Blogger! Where's my free dead cow?; 3/20/19, 8:01 AM
Abdul Abulbul Amir said...: “Experts say” In other words we don’t have the data to support the claim.; 3/20/19, 8:02 AM
traditionalguy said...: Notice that the illegal drug trade requires guns, lots of big guns. That is the way an illegal activity polices its business. They cannot call the police or have a lwayer sue in the Courts. Their business requires firepower every second of the day. In the USA our Big Pharma uses the Federal Government to supply them the needed firepower.; 3/20/19, 8:15 AM
GregQ said...: The UK banned guns, and has had a growing rate of crimes by people with guns ever since.

I guess that's the US's fault, too?; 3/20/19, 8:18 AM
Temujin said...: I think Eric Holder should be the first one to answer this question.; 3/20/19, 8:22 AM
Browndog said...: Mexicans buy their guns at gun shops. Mexicans smuggle their drugs through ports of entry.

How is it possible to be this obtuse?; 3/20/19, 8:34 AM
mockturtle said...: Daskol observes: The US incarceration rate has increased and yet crime rates are on the decline.

Funny how that works, isn't it?; 3/20/19, 8:38 AM
Fernandinande said...: I sold a 357 revolver and a 22 semi in Mexico. My Mexican friend inherited literally thousands of guns from his Mexican dad, including a 45 with a legal silencer, brought them into the US and sold all but a few of them thru a legit dealer. He kept the 45, the silencer is legal for some reason if you inherit it.; 3/20/19, 8:57 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: When I read about cartel attacks involving grenades, RPGs, and tons of automatic weapons I always think "that darn local gun shop of mine, at it again!"; 3/20/19, 8:58 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Maybe we should work to eliminate unmonitored border crossing spots, funnel as many crossers to monitored areas, and increase inspections of those few areas to help cut down on firearms being smuggled into Mexico.
Maybe Mexico could help make that happen, maybe by putting some money towards the construction of physical barriers to prevent and discourage crossing in those unmonitored areas?

Sounds reasonable--can't possibly happen!; 3/20/19, 9:05 AM
buwaya said...: There are a couple of documentaries on YouTube about the making of completely untraceable guns, by hand, in the Philippines. Copies of 1911s and others. Most come from the hill country of Cebu province. There never were serial numbers to remove, no ballistics records, never used in other crimes, etc. Totally “clean”.These are smuggled around the world and one doco showed them ending up in the hands of professional assassins in Central America. They are used a few times then dumped.

No doubt there are other places in the world where these things are made.; 3/20/19, 9:11 AM
Oso Negro said...: I believe that a large number of American officials and politicians receive drug money from the cartels and the press is not interested in talking about it. In the El Chapo trial, corruption on the U.S. side was the hound that didn’t bark.; 3/20/19, 9:14 AM
Paul said...: I agree... Trump needs to build that wall!

See we stop guns going south, drugs coming north, Illegals (criminal, terrorist, just plan folk, etc..), people running from the law in the US, etc...

Just a win-win-win... except the Democrats lose votes and the Mob loses money. And that is the reason they will do anything to stop that wall!; 3/20/19, 9:15 AM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: That's why.; 3/20/19, 9:16 AM
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...: I don't believe those COSCO containers of thousands of Chinese AKs (SKS) ever stopped in the USA on their way from China to MX. They might want to check their ports and see if they aren't actually the giant gun shop hiding in plain sight.; 3/20/19, 9:17 AM
Freder Frederson said...: The UK banned guns, and has had a growing rate of crimes by people with guns ever since.

This statement does not even rise to the level of bullshit. It is an outright lie.; 3/20/19, 9:24 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: Let me repeat from a poster above, the Stratfor article is great: Mexico's Gun Supply and the 90 Percent Myth

The 90% figure is grossly misleading - to simplify, it only includes firearm serial numbers submitted to the BATFE, which is a small subset of the firearms recovered by the Mexican police. It doesn’t include the military grade weapons flooding in from Central and South America, or firearms stolen from its own police and military, or firearms manufactured outside the US and Europe, or firearms that don’t have recognizable serial numbers. With those exclusions added back in, the number traced by the ATF as coming from the US drops to maybe 13%. These tend to be higher grade non-fully-automatic firearms chambered in calibers from, say, 9mm on up. So, the Mexicans may try to trace a Glock 17 or 19 (9mm handguns often used by police) through the ATF if it wasn’t one of theirs, but won’t bother with an AK-47, M16, M60 (all fully automatic) or of Chinese or South American manufacture, or if the serial number has been removed, or was never on the firearms.

Notably, and often ignored, is the inconvenient reality that essentially every single fully automatic firearm possessed by prohibited persons, or used in crimes, in this country entered this country illegally, and probably the bulk of those were smuggled into this country from Mexico. The legally possessed fully automatic firearms in this country are too heavily regulated, and too expensive, to be used by criminals. And with Mexico awash with military grade firearms, it is natural that they be smuggled north into the US, along with drugs and people.

Debating the source of guns only obscures the question though of why the number of murders is so high, and that is inconveniently answered by noting that good parts of Mexico have become a failed state. And much of that can be attributed to the drug trade with the US. With all the money being made there, the competition between rival gangs and cartels is fierce, and often very violent and bloody. And their military grade weapons almst never in from the US, because they are so heavily restricted here, unless they had first been acquired by the Mexican government. Reducing the drug traffic across our Mexican border (including by building Trump’s Wall) will move that traffic elsewhere, sparing Mexico some, if not much, of their narco violence.; 3/20/19, 9:25 AM
Greg Hlatky said...: The UK banned guns, and has had a growing rate of crimes by people with guns ever since.

I guess that's the US's fault, too?

Yes. The US is sort of Husband to the world.; 3/20/19, 9:26 AM
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...: What I do support is a state-by-state effort to legislate permit-to-purchase. Of course, this is too tame for the left, and too draconian for the right.

You and Soros. But this would do nothing to stop the wholesale movement of firearms that you describe since those aren't done using legit purchases, so once again you would punish only the law abiding and not the criminals. Now tell me what other rights described in the Bill of Rights you would make subject to some permitting process: speech? Worship? Free association? Petitioning the government for redress? I'm curious what other absolute rights spelled out by the Founding Fathers you casually dismiss as easily as you do the 2A.

By this point you must be aware of the Supremacy Clause, right? So if the Constitution says "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" that means Congress can't infringe the right and States cannot either. Your licensing scheme is an infringement. I'm not responsible for Mexico's problems or the way other people use guns unsafely. I won't stand for your schemes that infringe me to make you feel better about someone else's lawlessness.

If the DNC-Media complex just started reporting on crime honestly (who is killing whom and where) then we would quickly see the people in charge of Chicago and other cesspits of violence exposed for the frauds they are, unwilling to enforce their local gun laws. Then their blaming of southern states, like you did, would be exposed as the flimsy myth it is. The Aldermen LET THE GUNS in and the gangs keep them in office.; 3/20/19, 9:29 AM
Sally327 said...: There are so many murders because there's only one gun shop. If there were more gun shops more people could arm themselves and fight back and then carrying a weapon for the purpose of doing harm would become a less viable option.

I don't know if that would be true but I challenge the assumption that having only one retail outlet to buy a gun means that there should be less murders by gun. I don't think the average gun killer gets his weapon that way does he? or she? I'm thinking street crime not domestic violence type crime.; 3/20/19, 9:33 AM
rcocean said...: "The US incarceration rate has increased and yet crime rates are on the decline."

Punishment has no affect (effect?) on crime. That's why we should get rid of Hate Crimes and Rape laws. BTW, in the 60s and 70s crime went up while the incarceration rate went DOWN. I sense a pattern.; 3/20/19, 9:49 AM
rcocean said...: Wikipedia says Mexicans have the constitutional right to keep arms for hunting and self-defense. And they can have up ti 3-4 guns per household (pistol, rifle, shotgun).
So, this BBC report is DELIBERATELY misleading. As stated above, the USA is Mexico's gun-shop. We make the best and cheapest firearms in the world. So, of course Mexico will get buy them all from us. The BBC report isn't news or analysis, its simply propaganda. One "expert" who tells the reporter what she wants to hear, and a few interviews and factoids supporting the opinion.

And in any case, this supports the need for a wall. Keeping drugs out of USA and guns in the USA, means fewer dead Mexicans.; 3/20/19, 10:00 AM
Maillard Reactionary said...: The correct answer, in addition to what Big Mike noted, is: "Because the place is full of Mexicans."

But that would be a very short article.

May I suggest a new tag: "Questions Only The BBC Is Asking".; 3/20/19, 10:04 AM
Yancey Ward said...: Guns can be manufactured in pretty much any modern machine shop- the electronic specs for doing so are widely distributed in today's world. If Smith and Wesson were shut down tomorrow, guns would still be manufactured for criminals. Would we then ban machine tools?; 3/20/19, 10:39 AM
n.n said...: And America is a one-stop shop, with one of the best and numerous armed populations, and a disproportionately low a... murder by gun rate. Mexicans can follow our armed lead, coupled with a suitable religious/moral philosophy, to secure their communities from domestic and foreign terrorism, to mitigate the risk of people running amuck, and to self-moderate, respectively.; 3/20/19, 10:42 AM
Michael K said...: "The US incarceration rate has increased and yet crime rates are on the decline."

Fox Butterfield has joined BBC?; 3/20/19, 11:00 AM
mockturtle said...: I don't know if that would be true but I challenge the assumption that having only one retail outlet to buy a gun means that there should be less murders by gun. I don't think the average gun killer gets his weapon that way does he? or she? I'm thinking street crime not domestic violence type crime.

Sally, I saw a documentary on TV a few years ago abut a small village in MX that wanted to protect themselves from the drug lords. They armed themselves and kept a vigilant watch and literally ran the gangs from their town. The MX government said, Oh, no. You can't do that. You must depend on us to take care of the drug lords and gangs. The weapons were confiscated. This was under the Nieto regime.; 3/20/19, 11:06 AM
GregQ said...: Freder Frederson said...
The UK banned guns, and has had a growing rate of crimes by people with guns ever since.

This statement does not even rise to the level of bullshit. It is an outright lie.

Reality check:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gun-crime+uk/uk

Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK
Published: 27 Dec 2018

Three arrested after man shot dead in north London
Published: 18 Dec 2018

London homicides now highest annual rate for a decade
Published: 12 Dec 2018

Two arrests over shooting death of father at Belfast school
Published: 5 Dec 2018; 3/20/19, 11:07 AM
YoungHegelian said...: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction. Sometime under the last two years of Trump or if he or another Republican president in 2020, I predict that the FBI or BATF will bust a far left-wing group for running guns from Mexico.

Why would the lefties do such a thing? Well, because they know they're seriously outgunned by the Right. Not only do the Righties have hundreds of millions of guns, but they also "own" the US gun culture. The Right can thus keep tabs on what guns the Left is acquiring in ways that the Left would prefer to keep secret.

"Oh, YH, you're just making this up. What sort of Lefty groups are stocking up on guns?"

Uhhhmm, guys like this.; 3/20/19, 11:19 AM
Gospace said...: Henry said...

What I do support is a state-by-state effort to legislate permit-to-purchase. Of course, this is too tame for the left, and too draconian for the right.

Who is the militia? By federal law: "The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

Several state militias are more expansive then the federal militia. So pretty much every citizen, at one point or another in their life, is part of the militia.

The militia, when called out, is supposed to come armed. Which is why every American citizen should be able to purchase the standard firearm issued to the Mark 1 Mod 0 infantryman. The full select fire version, not a civilianized semi-automatic version.

OMG! This would lead to wholesale slaughter on the streets! Well, as much as the speed limits of 75 and 80 in many states lead to bodies strewn all over the highway whereas here in NY limited to 65 we don't see that. Or possibly the lower speed limit leads to more people being lawbreakers. Last week on the NYS Thruway I don't think my speedometer saw the low side of 70.

Venezuela is now the latest example of what happens when a citizens give up their guns. Government supported gangs own the streets- and are armed. Ordinary citizens are cowed. The lesson has been repeated over and over again in history. A citizenry giving up arms is a prelude to despotism.; 3/20/19, 11:32 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "By this point you must be aware of the Supremacy Clause, right? So if the Constitution says "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" that means Congress can't infringe the right and States cannot either."

The Supremacy Clause doesn't make the Second Amendment binding on the states. The Bill of Rights limits the federal government. It is the 14th Amendment's due process clause that is interpreted to incorporate Bill of Rights rights and make them binding on the states.; 3/20/19, 12:03 PM
Gospace said...: Freder Frederson said...
The UK banned guns, and has had a growing rate of crimes by people with guns ever since.

This statement does not even rise to the level of bullshit. It is an outright lie.

Gun crimes in London increased by 42% last year. (from 2017) https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-39578500

A google search of "gun crimes in England" yields hundreds of similar headlines. From British sources. That suggests the statement is complete truth and you are misinformed.; 3/20/19, 12:04 PM
Rory said...: The murder rate in Mexico has exploded in the last decade, to about 25 per 100,000. Remarkably, that's not a remarkable rate in the Western Hemisphere. It's somewhere in the middle of the averages for Central and South America.; 3/20/19, 12:31 PM
Rusty said...: Blogger Freder Frederson said...
The UK banned guns, and has had a growing rate of crimes by people with guns ever since"
This statement does not even rise to the level of bullshit. It is an outright lie."
Per capita you're much more likely to be a victim of a violent crime in Britain than the United States.; 3/20/19, 12:34 PM
Rusty said...: Yancey Ward said...
"Guns can be manufactured in pretty much any modern machine shop- the electronic specs for doing so are widely distributed in today's world. If Smith and Wesson were shut down tomorrow, guns would still be manufactured for criminals. Would we then ban machine tools?"
Somewhere in the piles of junk in my basement there is an FAL receiver I made from a very bad forging. It is complete except for the barrel threads which need to be timed. The fun part was making the special tooling needed to cut the proprietary grooves and notches. After that I got bored. AK recievers are stupid simple.; 3/20/19, 12:42 PM
Henry said...: Mike said, ...since those aren't done using legit purchases...

The guns are often purchased legally. They are distributed illegally after purchase.

According to an anonymous survey of inmates in Cook County, Ill., covering 135 guns they had access to, only two had been purchased directly from a gun store. Many inmates reported obtaining guns from friends who had bought them legally and then reported them stolen, or from locals who had brought the guns from out of state.

Now tell me what other rights described in the Bill of Rights you would make subject to some permitting process: speech? Worship? Free association? Petitioning the government for redress? I'm curious what other absolute rights spelled out by the Founding Fathers you casually dismiss as easily as you do the 2A.

All of those are subject to legal interpretation. You need a permit to hold a rally. Your religious practices may put you afoul of laws for which religion is not an excuse.

One reason I propose permit to purchase is because it already is unchallenged state law in many states. Massachusetts requires permit to purchase for both handguns and long guns. People still own guns here, believe it or not.; 3/20/19, 12:47 PM
daskol said...: That it's a majority of the traceable guns that can traced to the US, but that most of the guns recovered in crimes in Mexico aren't traceable, is the most interesting thing I've learned today. Thanks!

P.S. I really miss James Taranto.; 3/20/19, 12:55 PM
Big Mike said...: I certainly wish that they had phrased the Second Amendment as follows: “The natural of self-defense being unalienable, the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” From George Mason’s writings it seems clear that he and the majority of the Founding Fathers envisioned an army consisting mostly of civilians who did some training together and would coalesce into a unified fighting force if needed. Switzerland does something like this today. It’s been about 15 years since a Swiss citizen explained their conscription system to me, but IIRC after completing his training he was actually issued an assault rifle, i,e., capable of fully automatic fire to store at home, plus a sealed box of ammo.

The notion that politicians would someday seek to restrict people’s right to fight back against criminals attacking them would have been met by the likes of George Mason, George Washington, John Adams, and James Madison with derisive laughter.; 3/20/19, 12:58 PM
daskol said...: Not only could this be an argument in favor of enforcing the border between the US and Mexico, the headline is a devastating argument against gun control: apparently there's not much correlation with the availability of legal firearms and violent crime. Inside the bubble, that headline looks like a devastating critique of our gun-crazy society. To everyone else, it's like, duh: legal purchasers of firearms are not the problem. You have to really hate guns not to see that implication.; 3/20/19, 1:00 PM
Drago said...: Freder: "This statement does not even rise to the level of bullshit. It is an outright lie."

A Freder-Bundy Trial Outcome Analysis-level lie, or a lesser lie?; 3/20/19, 1:02 PM
Bilwick said...: When it comes to gun control, "liberals" (by which I mean of course "tax-happy, coercion-addicted, power-tripping government humpers and State fellators") remind me of the nuns in Catholic grammar school. The vast majority of gun-owners--and I mean vast-- in the US do not use their firearms in any aggressive or illegal manner; yet "Sister Statist" tells us, "That may be, but because a few have abused their rights, we have to take away the rights of the majority."; 3/20/19, 1:48 PM
BUMBLE BEE said...: If democrats stop using drugs the market would collapse. If democrats stop shooting people, gun crime would collapse. Fast and Furious moved some 30+ .50 cal. Barrett sniper rifles across the border (presumably). One of which was seized at El Chapo's compound. Those rifles, in capable hands, can blowout a Kenworth's engine at 1/4 mile. A trained sniper can kill a human at 3/4 mile with one. Who knows what really became of such powerful weapons. BTW the operations' overseers were later promoted by ATF.; 3/20/19, 2:05 PM
BUMBLE BEE said...: In southern Mexico AK 47s are made available by Isis, Hamas as well as CUBA and China. Central America is crawling with baddies thus financing their agendas.; 3/20/19, 2:10 PM
Henry said...: For those of you objecting to Freder, you need to remember that the UK banned guns in 1996 with follow-up legislation in 2006. Using stats from 2016 to 2018 really, really, dramatically, misses the data.

The long-term trend in the use of firearms in crime in England and Wales show consistent falls between 2003/04 and 2013/14 for both non-air weapons and air weapons, with a slight rise between 2014/15 and 2015/16

Even the articles you link to tell you so.

Gospace: The Met said although crime rates were rising they remained at a much lower level than five years ago.

Cross-referencing back to my first link, there were 8400 firearms-related offenses in 2016, 9500 in 2012. Every year between 1992 and 2012 is higher than 2016 -- generally much higher.

GregQ: London homicides now highest annual rate for a decade -- Of the 132 victims of homicide in London last year for whom data is available, 76 were stabbed, 15 were shot and 41 were killed by other means.

It should also be noted that London has a population of 8 million. That reign of terror in London 2018 is a homicide rate of 1.6 people per 100,000. That's a lower rate than every single U.S. state except New Hampshire and North Dakota and lower than almost every major U.S. city. It is 1/3 of Madison, Wisconsin's homicide rate.; 3/20/19, 2:29 PM
Henry said...: Gospace -- I have no strong opinion about the militia question. I assume the current constitutional status quo and have not proposed anything beyond it -- that, indeed, is my very point.; 3/20/19, 2:31 PM
Henry said...: To sum up. By any rational analysis, Freder is correct.; 3/20/19, 2:34 PM
Big Mike said...: A trained sniper can kill a human at 3/4 mile with one

With good optics a properly trained sniper could go out beyond a full mile with a .50 caliber Barrett.; 3/20/19, 2:40 PM
mockturtle said...: Young Hegelian observes the organization of lefty-wing militias based on economic interests. There are also many, especially in the west, whom I would call eco-militants who are also well armed. Whether or not they are well trained, I can't say but I know of one who was a Vietnam vet.; 3/20/19, 2:47 PM
Gospace said...: Henry said...

Gospace: The Met said although crime rates were rising they remained at a much lower level than five years ago.

It went down- now it's going up. When does it stop going up?

That the rate of gun violence, and other violence, is rising, is a fact.

That break-ins of OCCUPIED homes in Great Britain is far higher than in the United States is a fact. Even in states with a "duty to retreat", which should be a completely prohibited concept in U.S. law, it's pretty hard to convict someone for killing an intruder in their residence. In Great Britain, even hurting a home intruder can lead to hefty prison sentences.

BTW, crime statistics from Europe, and likely Great Britain, are skewed. Badly skewed. We report crimes as they are reported. Any crimes. In many spots in Europe, they report crimes, particularly murder, by conviction. No one is convicted- no crime took place! Don't bother reporting a pickpocket in Paris. Police won't even take a report. If you catch the pickpocket in the act- break their fingers. They'll attempt to report it. Then you shrug your shoulders, "I don't even know this person. Why would I break their fingers?" Yes, I do know someone who did that. And the gendarme asked the gypsy- "Why would he break your fingers?" End of incident. Admit to crime to report a crime? That's a losing situation for a criminal.; 3/20/19, 2:55 PM
Henry said...: Gospace, the pertinent laws were passed in 1997 and 2006. The firearms-related crimes rate is a fraction of what it was 10 years ago. Year to year variation at the end of a long decline is a weak crutch for your argument.

Your argument that crime reports from England underrepresent actual crime is unfalsifiable, so I have nothing to say to it. If we just stick to homicides, we should have some basis for comparison. Unless you think Scotland Yard is overlooking corpses.

Your argument that use of a gun in home defense would cause an Englishman to be accused of a crime is confusing. Wouldn't that make the gun-related crime rate higher?; 3/20/19, 3:10 PM
Henry said...: I'm curious -- do you have a source for the burglarly of occupied home rate? Because I can't find any official documentation for that statement that allows comparison for U.S. and U.K.; 3/20/19, 3:23 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Yancey Ward said...
"Guns can be manufactured in pretty much any modern machine shop- the electronic specs for doing so are widely distributed in today's world. If Smith and Wesson were shut down tomorrow, guns would still be manufactured for criminals. Would we then ban machine tools?"

Fun and games maybe a month or so ago. The NJ AG tried to shut down the distribution over the Internet of digital plans for complete AR-15s. Forgot the 1st Amdt. Within 24 hours of becoming available, a large number of copies were downloaded. Since it is likely that someone in the govt was probably tracking this, I will admit to succumbing to my curiosity. Turns out the Zipped directory contains CAD/CAM designs for a complete AR-15 in maybe three different 3D formats, as well as PDFs of complete engineering drawings for the M16 (not sure which variant), obtained via FOIA. I have also seen cutting codes for AR-15, AR-10, 1911, and Glock G19 lower receivers. Also available online were the plans for the Liberator, a single shot plastic gun that could be manufactured utilizing a fairly low end 3D printer. Too many copies are out there now to ever dry up the supply. Information wanted to be free, and now is.; 3/20/19, 3:27 PM
Milwaukie guy said...: While individuals should only be allowed to own rifles and the like, I think it should be clear that only states, cities or villages can own artillery or armor. I think my town should support an artillery battery in case we want to lob something into Portland.; 3/20/19, 3:35 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: “Young Hegelian observes the organization of lefty-wing militias based on economic interests. There are also many, especially in the west, whom I would call eco-militants who are also well armed. Whether or not they are well trained, I can't say but I know of one who was a Vietnam vet.”

I would say that for the most part, they are late to the party. Some of the guns that I saw Antifa fascist thugs sporting last year were, frankly, pathetic. But the other thing there is that gun ownership is more libertarian than fascist (or socialist). Progressives, statists, fascists (and other socialists), etc prefer farming out gun ownership and control to the state, figuring that they can get their way by manipulating the state (with all of its guns) against their enemies. I would suspect that if these eco-terrorists were given a choice of which side to join, if the potential civil war we may be facing ever erupts into widespread violence, that they will pick the right, the side that is happy to leave them alone, over the left.; 3/20/19, 3:39 PM
Gospace said...: Henry said...

Your argument that use of a gun in home defense would cause an Englishman to be accused of a crime is confusing. Wouldn't that make the gun-related crime rate higher?

I didn't say shooting a criminal- I said hurting a criminal. You can get away claiming self defense claim if an intruder surprises you and you bash him with something at hand. But if you hear an intruder, hunt for your cricket bat, then confront the intruder- well, you, the homeowner have committed a crime. It's not reasonable to confront an intruder when you could have left the premises. Under British law.; 3/20/19, 3:46 PM
Gospace said...: AS to reporting of homicides, I find the following statement interesting: "The homicide may no longer be recorded as such if all the suspects were acquitted." This is from the British Office of National Statistics. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2017

So, the police in GB have to classify a crime as homicide first. A dead body classified as "unknown" wouldn't be classified as a homicide. Here- it is. Unknown suspicious death here is assumed to be homicide. If someone is charged with homicide in a case in Great Britain- but found not guilty, lo and behold- the death isn't a homicide! Here, it's still a homicide, but unsolved. O. J. Simpson wouldn't need to be looking for the real killers anymore in Great Britain, because the dead bodies he left behind weren't deaths by homicide!

Sort of like the statistics for infant death. In the U.S., any infant born alive is alive. In most of Europe, if they're under a certain birthweight, or too premature, or die within 24 hours, they're not infant deaths because they're not born alive- even though they are. It's why our infant death statistics are so much higher.; 3/20/19, 4:06 PM
Unknown said...: mrsizer said... (for some reason Google has me as "Unknown" on this blog)

I, too, have heard the burglary rate thing, so I looked for stuff. First issue: "hot" vs "cold" burglary. During a "hot" burglary, someone is present; during a "cold" one, the place being burgled is known to be non-occupied. So, comparing burglary rates is not what we're after, here. Those are higher in England, but not excessively so (about twice).

This (only thru 2015) is all burglaries. England/UK doesn't even make the list: https://knoema.com/atlas/ranks/Burglary-rate

Politifact makes a swing at "violent crime": https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jun/24/blog-posting/social-media-post-says-uk-has-far-higher-violent-c/ It's a valiant effort, but also not what we're looking for.

I think this study may be the source of part of the impression:
In studies involving interviews of felons, one of the reasons the majority of burglars try to avoid occupied homes is the chance of getting shot. (Increasing the odds of arrest is another.) A study of Pennsylvania burglary inmates reported that many burglars refrain from late-night burglaries because it's hard to tell if anyone is home, several explaining "That's the way to get shot." (Rengert G. and Wasilchick J., Suburban Burglary: A Time and a Place for Everything, 1985, Springfield, IL: Charles Thomas.)

This summary doesn't mention England and it's quite old. I doubt much has changed in the US since then, but as pointed out above, a lot has changed in England.

That's all of even remote relevance that I found.; 3/20/19, 5:13 PM
Be said...: If MA could build a wall between NH and MA for guns and drugs, and VT and MA for drugs, that'd be great.; 3/20/19, 5:18 PM
GregQ said...: Reading this, from Gospace link:

"Due to this, the percentage of homicides recorded in the year ending March 2017 (and, to a lesser extent, those recorded in earlier years) that have concluded at Crown Court is likely to show an increase" makes it clear that their number are not in any way comparable to ours, and that, yes, it's only a homicide when the police say it's a homicide, and OJ's victims weren't murdered, because he was found not Guilty.

Homicide Index data are based on the year when the offence was recorded as a crime, not when the offence took place or when the case was heard in court. While in the vast majority of cases the offence will be recorded in the same year as it took place, this is not always the case. Caution is therefore needed when looking at longer-term homicide trend figures. For example:

the 172 homicides attributed to Dr Harold Shipman as a result of Dame Janet Smith’s inquiry took place over a long period of time but were all recorded by the police during the year ending March 2003

the 96 deaths that occurred at Hillsborough in 1989 were recorded as manslaughters in the year ending March 2017 following the verdict of the Hillsborough Inquest in April 2016

Furthermore, where several people are killed by the same suspect, the number of homicides counted is the total number of victims killed rather than the number of incidents. For example, the victims of Derrick Bird are counted as 12 homicides rather than one incident in the year ending March 2011 data.

The data refer to the position as at 16 November 2017, when the Homicide Index database was “frozen” for the purpose of analysis4. The data will change as subsequent court hearings take place or as further information is received.

The circumstances surrounding a homicide may be complex and it can take time for cases to pass through the criminal justice system (CJS). Due to this, the percentage of homicides recorded in the year ending March 2017 (and, to a lesser extent, those recorded in earlier years) that have concluded at Crown Court is likely to show an increase when the next figures from the Homicide Index are published

Also, UK homicides didn't fall after the "gun ban", whereas US homicides have fallen significantly since then:

https://www.reddit.com/r/progun/comments/1tvvvc/the_uk_homicide_rate_did_not_decline_after_the/; 3/20/19, 5:23 PM
Rusty said...: This bears repeating. There are approx.100 million gun owners in the United States. That is the number of firearm owners that can be reliably documented. There may be more. Those gun owners own approx. 300 million firearms. It is very likely that the figure is double that. What good are gun controllaws if noone obeys them?; 3/20/19, 5:41 PM
mockturtle said...: I would suspect that if these eco-terrorists were given a choice of which side to join, if the potential civil war we may be facing ever erupts into widespread violence, that they will pick the right, the side that is happy to leave them alone, over the left.

I'd like to think so, Bruce, but the eco-fascists I know believe that 'saving the planet' is the most important thing. More important than human lives.; 3/20/19, 5:56 PM
Gojuplyr831@gmail.com said...: Big Mike and Bee,
The current record distance for a sniper shot is over 2 miles. Done by a Canadian sniper team liasoned into a British unit and using one of the Barrets.; 3/20/19, 9:52 PM
Big Mike said...: @Rusty, 300 million is almost certainly 100 million too low.; 3/20/19, 10:29 PM
Big Mike said...: @James Smith, yes, I am aware, though I had originally thought it was with the .338 Lapua. In his autobiogaphy Chris Kyle expressed his opinion that the .338 Lapa had superior ballistics to the .50 BMG. But IIRC Kyle’s longest kill in Iraq was with a .300 Winchester Magnum, a round developed for hunting. (Interested people can buy Kyle’s autobiography, “American Sniper,” via the Althouse Amazon portal.); 3/20/19, 10:46 PM
stlcdr said...: Henry said...

Your argument that use of a gun in home defense would cause an Englishman to be accused of a crime is confusing. Wouldn't that make the gun-related crime rate higher?

While I’d like this to not be true, but yes, a lot of spikes in ‘gun crime’ in the uk is due to the fact that once legal ownership becomes illegal at the swipe of a pen.

Being an expat, with relatives fearful that I’m going to get killed in the US, I ran a variety of comparable statistics comparing the US to the UK, and found that violence against the person is significantly higher in the UK than the US, while the murder rate In the US is higher (mostly, the murder weapon being a gun).

When comparing rural districts, murder rates drop significantly in both US and UK, but violence, robberies, stays high in the UK. As a further distinction, when comparing violence against the person, a lot of the violent crimes in the US has the perpetrator known to the victim. Conversely, the UK has a significant percentage where the victim and perpetrator are not known to each other.

(I can’t recall the actual numbers, so apologies for the weasel words. Suffice to say, on the whole, the US is safer than the UK in my estimation based on both statistics and anecdotal experience).; 3/21/19, 5:44 AM