March 12, 2019

A brief history....

84 comments:

Lucien said...

So is that comment supposed to be offensive to Kulaks, or Hitler haters; or friendly to Mao & Pol Pot, or what?

Unknown said...

Don't get the comment, but I once crashed a bike when a loose skateboard crossed my path.

rhhardin said...

It might be right. It's partly also he killed people who didn't bring it on themselves.

The Russians and the Chinese ought to have overthrown their own respective governments, by contrast.

William said...

The plus side of Hitler is that he made Stalin look good.......I read a book about the siege of Leningrad. The strategic aim of the siege was not to conquer the city but to starve every single inhabitant of the city to death. The inhabitants did starve to death in great numbers. The exceptions were those connected to the Communist Party who ran the rationing system. Administrators of the orphanages put on weight.. The authorities turned a blind eye to cannibalism, but you could get arrested for criticizing the authorities.......There's nothing much to like about the authorities, but, technically, they were the moral superiors of their besiegers.

Unknown said...

Its because its within living memory. I think Cortez was just as bad or worse. AOC needs to do something about that name.

Seeing Red said...

Hitlers hated because they can’t hate Stalin.

And camps.

If he had starved them to death, like the Chinese will do AGAIN...

Who am I kidding? That’s just how we all need to get along. The social contract.

Ken B said...

You are on fire today Althouse.

Trumpit said...

"Sorry" doesn't cut it when you start a world war. Has Trump-Hitler ever expressed an ounce of contrition for having cheated Hillary out of the 2016 presidential erection? 65,844,954 of us, who voted for her, feel cheated, too.

Ralph L said...

I first read that as "liked white people" and agreed with it.

JPS said...

"Horrific tweet"?

What Hitler did was horrific. What those other mass murderers did was horrific.

Andrew Murray's argument is not horrific. It is perhaps objectionable. I happen to disagree with it.

An interviewer in the late 1990s asked Robert Conquest who was worse: Stalin (whose crimes he'd done much to make the outside world aware of) or Hitler. Hitler, he answered. Why? the interviewer asked. I don't know. I feel it, said Conquest. (He later explained that he felt one could reasonably disagree, as did the late Vasily Grossman, whose mother was murdered by the Nazis.)

I feel it too. And I can rationalize the feeling. But it should not be unacceptable to argue otherwise.

JAORE said...

In my world skin color or ethnicity is not the top ten issues in every damned subject.

But, hey, that's just me.

Levi Starks said...

He could be right

Char Char Binks said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
YoungHegelian said...

No, it wasn't because Hitler killed white people that he is considered the epitome of evil. It's because he crossed the German border & killed non-Germans.

Stalin's victims were overwhelmingly white, too, but he gets to skate. That's because both him & Mao mass-murdered their own people. Even from the viewpoint of international law, it's a whole different ballgame if you mass-murder in wartime as opposed to mass-murdering your own people in peacetime. Countries get into wars when they cross borders. What country has ever been invaded because it was murdering too many of its own people?

Sebastian said...

Murray is right. Mao was worse. But yellow bodies don't count as much and no one knows their names and they're not useful to the prog narrative.

I don't think Murray thought through the implication of his perverted anti-white-privilege argument: by downgrading Hitler's evil, for who cares about white death anyway, he is upgrading the monstrosity of non-white evil-doers.

Steven said...

I assume the issue is that the tweet is asserting that Jews are white? Since it appears from the comments so far that no one is talking about that, I get the sense that most people here do consider Jewish people to be white.

I thought so too, but what do I know? I always thought that people from the Middle East were white too, but the democrats seem to think otherwise. For that matter, aren't people from spanish-speaking countries white?

We seem to be losing a distinction between ethnicity and race. Not that either of those things deserves to be meaningful, but society seems to be taking things in the wrong direction.

Hunter said...

Seems a little strange to imply that Jews are white and Ukrainians aren't.

Carol said...

Genghis Khan gets no love eh?

Ralph L said...

Hitler killed mostly foreigners and systematically as a German should.
Mao and Stalin killed mostly their own subjects and didn't keep good records.

Hunter said...

My theory would be that Hitler's genocide seems worse because of the mechanization. Loading masses of people into train cars and sending them to slaughterhouses. It wasn't just mass murder, it was dehumanization in the most explicit way possible.

SDaly said...

You have to read the guy's argument. He is complaining that Hitler is portrayed as worse than other Europeans who are equally bad because of colonialism, but the other Europeans get a pass because their "victims" were "brown." He's comparing the treatment of Hilter to that of Cecil Rhodes, not Pol Pot, Idi Amin, or Mao.

I suspect his tweet would be embraced whole-heartedly by 90% of academics today.

Greg P said...

Blogger Trumpit said...
"Sorry" doesn't cut it when you start a world war. Has Trump-Hitler ever expressed an ounce of contrition for having cheated Hillary out of the 2016 presidential erection? 65,844,954 of us, who voted for her, feel cheated, too.


Ok, I now accept that TrumpIt is a parody account.

It was a good run, TI, but you went too far there

Michael K said...

Hitlers hated because they can’t hate Stalin.

Yes but the arguments that Stalin and Mao killed their own people has some logic to it.

Chavez and Maduro would benefit from the same logic. The people starving are mostly the voters who elected Chavez,.

Hagar said...

The communist regimes know exactly how many ration cards were issued where and when. But those records are state secrets.

Hitler's crimes were committed in Western Europe and are world famous - in Western European nations, of which the United States is one. In Asia, not so much.

Kevin said...

65,844,954 of us, who voted for her, feel cheated, too.

Why? On what grounds?

Martin said...

I wasn't aware it was a competition with rankings.

To the extent people see Hitler as the unchallenged epitome of evil, it may be because people like Andrew Murray have avoided criticizing their fellow leftists like Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot?

Put 'em all in the same category as genocidal tyrants, and don't worry about who outranks whom.

Caligula said...

Hitler was in power for only 12 years- six before the War, and six during the War. Stalin had 30 years in power, Mao had 27.

And Hitler's rate of mass-murder was accelerating. If he'd had 27 or 30 years in power perhaps he would have just consolidated his gains, but, it seems at least as likely that he'd have expanded the mass-murder rate. Perhaps by extending it to Slavic peoples if he ran out of Jews?

Hitler wins the mass-murder prize not just because of the numbers but because of the murder rate. And anyone who thinks British colonialism was as bad, as virulently evil, as Nazi Germany can only be living in a reality-distortion field.

h said...

As Trumpit notes: " 65,844,954 of us, who voted for Hillary, feel cheated, too." And the day will come when historians discover that every single one of those 66 million people has been put to death, cementing forever Trump's legacy as history's worst monster.

Scott said...

Hitler lost, and the victors (who included Stalin, arguably a worse monster) found it convenient to focus on his (horrific) crimes instead of their own. Of course the Germans were useful enough in the Cold War, so they were rehabilitated reasonably quickly. I always wondered what would have happened if Hitler had survived the war.

None of this excuses Hitler any of his evil, and I say this as someone whose family lost about 70-80% of its members as a result of the war. Suggesting that his crimes were unique however, is a fairly amazing bit of chutzpah coming from adherents of Stalin and Mao....

johnhenry100 said...

Is it possible that the Tweeter is right? That the National Socialist genocide is well known because of the victims were white Europeans?

But if that is true, how come very few people know about the 3mm Christian Poles murdered in the Holocaust? How come very few know about the 3mm other non Jews? The Holocaust murdered 12mm (in round numbers) yet all we hear about is the 6mm. (And I'll get called racist of anti-semitic for mentioning this). The Russians murdered 20-40mm, mostly white, people in the gulags. Yet we still talk about "Uncle Joe" Stalin as if he were not a horrific murderer.

4-6 million people have been murdered in the Congo in the past 10-15 years. How many people here have even heard that there is a lot of genocide going on there? (Genocide or tribalcide)

But Congolese are black so who gives 2 shits?

Or Rwanda?

When it is black people being killed we seem to not even hear about it.

And speaking of the Congo, how many people even know about the 5-20 million murdered by the Belgians in the late 1800s-1930 or so? When it was King Leopold's personal plantation?

If you want a real horror story, read King Leopold's Ghost which details the Belgian genocide in the Congo. Conrad's Heart of Darkness caught a lot of flack when it was published. But Conrad had to really tone down what he observed there just to get anything at all past the publishers.

John Henry

johnhenry100 said...

Blogger Caligula said...

Perhaps by extending it to Slavic peoples if he ran out of Jews?

Bullshit, Caligula. He was ALREADY murdering Slavs at a great rate. 3mm Non-Jewish Poles were murdered in the National Socialist camps. In addition to 3mm Jewish Poles.

John Henry

Trumpit said...

65,844,954 of us, who voted for her, feel cheated, too.

"Why? On what grounds?"

If you don't know by now, there's no hope you'll ever understand the calamity that is Schlump. You're an empty-headed, unrepentant deplorable right-winger - the same as the entire Schlump family. That's all I care to say today.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

"What country has ever been invaded because it was murdering too many of its own people?"

Cambodia.

Humperdink said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Phil 3:14 said...

Tens of thousands of gay men not available for comment.

Yancey Ward said...

The victors get to write the history- this is an iron rule in such things. Stalin and Mao ended their lives as victors, Hitler did not.

Yancey Ward said...

Additionally, Stalin was an ally during the war. Sure, it was a case of the enemy of my enemy being my friend, but the people writing the history are affected by this alliance of convenience. It is easier to sleep at night if you gloss over or don't mention Stalin's crimes. The same applies to Tokyo, Dresden, Nagasaki, and Hiroshima.

Hagar said...

Hitler was 75 years ago.

In today's situation, American Jews may do well to consider that Israel is now allied with Egypt, Jordan, and the Saudis to fight a common danger from Iran, Russia, and Turkey.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

rehajm said...

This is serious stuff but i'm still trying to sort out my British Andy Murrays.

Mike said...

Let’s just absolve Hillary! of running the worst campaign in recorded history, Trumpit, one in which she took many “breaks” and collapsed like a sack of shit after hacking and coughing her way through underwhelming appearances, which ironically did NOT include your cheese-eating state of Wisconsin. A campaign that was built on nothing more than hate for her opponent and the sense she was entitled to win. Why wasn’t she fifty points ahead, you are still asking. The answer is because she was a horribly flawed candidate that the DNC tried but failed to drag over the finish line by cheating and using the FBI to dirty-trick her opponent. Everyone said she would win. But she is a turd you just can’t polish enough to make palatable to most people. Unlike you, who like corrupt, diseased, cheating harridans.

Love Trumps Hate. And Trump beats the harridan. Awesome!

Static Ping said...

I am refusing to be outraged. That does not mean I agree.

The author is comparing the English colonial empire to Hitler's Final Solution. This is a most peculiar effort. By empire standards, the English one was relatively benign. It certainly was not perfect and did some terrible things and its purpose was selfish, granted, but if you study history and look at various empires and conquests there's a lot worse.

What irks me in the comparison to Hitler. The English, to the best of my knowledge, never attempted a genocide. The only thing close I can remember are the Thugees, who may not have actually existed and if they did I would think that everyone in area would not have been sad to see them go. Hitler was already in the process of multiple genocides when he was stopped, and he had many more planned until the world was nothing but Germans and close enough to Germans to pass. The Nazis with control of the English Empire and a free hand to do whatever they wanted would have been an unbelievable blood bath.

Professional lady said...

Maybe it's because we in the West actually know people that were killed or brutalized by Hitler's regime. When I was growing up, I knew my mother's cousin who was a Aushwitz survivor. Think of all the Jewish people here and in the West who had relatives and friends that died under Hitler. Think of all the Central and Eastern European Americans and immigrants who had relatives that died and suffered under the Nazi regime. I don't think there was as much contact with Russia and China. Not only that, there were Western witnesses to what happened. Years ago, when I volunteered for hospice legal aid, I talked to a man who had been with a US army unit that was one of the first to go into a concentration camp. I'll never forget what he told me.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Killing white Jews = just no big deal.

F the left.

Lurker21 said...

"What country has ever been invaded because it was murdering too many of its own people?"

Rwanda?

I think it was more the technology employed - gas chambers and crematoria - and the fact that so much money and effort were devoted to killing people. If the victims were only worked to death or left to starve and freeze the murders there would have been less outcry.

And of course, there was the idea that the Germans were considered to be so civilized, cultured and advanced. People expected barbarity from other peoples, not from a Kulturvolk in the center of Europe.

What went on in colonies outside Europe might have been terrible, but it was lower tech, less deliberate, and on a smaller scale - or if it was on a large scale, there wasn't one single person that could be blamed for all of it.

Was there a special horror in Hitler's choice of the Jews as a target to be annihilated? Or does the horror have more to do with the fact that annihilation was the target? If he had chosen a different primary target, would people think differently about Hitler or about the Jews or about antisemitism today?

Static Ping said...

Genghis Khan gets no love eh?

It's an interesting point. One thing to remember about the Mongols is if you surrendered to them, the Mongols were duty bound to protect you. This is a duty that the Mongols would honor multiple times. Furthermore, the lives of those that surrendered often improved given the Mongols were big into religious freedom and trade and not onerous with tax requirements.

If you did not surrender... well, there is a reason there are stories about mass slaughters. There are many, many examples.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Mike +1

Hillary is all that AND she is a corrupt money grubbing money whore. She set up a private Server to use to stuff her personal coffers with international play to play cash.

The fact that the Trumpits of the world excuse her for that, is really gross.

William said...

Hitler was definitely the worst ruler in Germany's history. The racism involved is that you expect better of the Germans. The Russians have routinely produced rulers like Tamerlane and Ivan the Terrible. Stalin is part of the continuum.

Hagar said...

Hitler was an Austrian and apparently never bothered to go through the formalities of becoming a German citizen.

Marty said...

SDaly said, You have to read the guy's argument. He is complaining that Hitler is portrayed as worse than other Europeans who are equally bad because of colonialism, but the other Europeans get a pass because their "victims" were "brown." He's comparing the treatment of Hitler to that of Cecil Rhodes, not Pol Pot, Idi Amin, or Mao.

When reading or listening to the rhetoric of the left, it is useless to take what they're saying at face value. That's for suckers. Especially for characters like Andrew Murray who are part of the leadership cadre, it's all about propagandizing for the utopian reich to come. Rank and file socialists and utopians (like the majority of my fellow Californians) may think that such comments stand on their own, but that is merely a mark of gullibility bred by longing for the easier life.

Here Murray is contributing to the long-standing British socialist connivance at wrecking what is best about England in the name of the current Comintern globalist nomenklatura. The meaninglessness of what he's saying is beside the point. "The empire (and by implication the Tories) did bad things," he's really saying, "therefore we must follow Corbyn into the opposite policy which we should have been doing all along."

Ralph L said...

That explains why he needed to annex Austria, to get his documents in order.

Anthony said...

I agree with others that the gassing and ovens and systematic nature of the Holocaust puts the Nazis into a worse light. And that it was all well-documented because they lost the war (and kept good records).

But Stalin and Mao and others are whitewashed because they espoused Socialism. That gives them a pass. Broken eggs and omelettes and all that. Socialists must be protected at all costs.

johnhenry100 said...

William,

Hitler was what, the 4th ruler in German history? Which goes all the back in the mists of time to the 1860s?

Not a very high bar.

John Henry

JohnAnnArbor said...

This humorous take on an internet forum is relevant.

I have a friend from China who says China almost has "too much history," by which he means it burdens the present thinking in China, which is true.

The Taiping Rebellion was truly a horror show, only 150 years ago, and we barely hear about it in the West.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

The National Socialists were motivated by social justice and diversity (i.e. color judgment), first inside Germany because of Jew privilege, then other European nations for causes of redistributive and retributive change following WWI. What sets the Nazis apart, is that people were horrified at the extreme carnage (e.g. selective-Jew, selective-Pole) that could be carried out under a veil of privacy in an ostensibly civilized country, which progressed to consume a significant part of the first-world.

wildswan said...

Hitler rounded up all the members of several racial groups (Jews Gypsies) in every nation he conquered and had them killed solely because of their membership in that group. There were six million Jews killed in this way. At the same time but not as systematically he killed Slavs, gays and descendants of African / German marriages. He killed Communists, Jehovahs Witnesses, Polish priests, political dissenters; he also enslaved 12 million civilians from conquered nations such as France and Poland to work in German industry many of whom died from terrible conditions. He killed eleven million people this way. Casualties in Russia from battles and losses amount to 19 million people. This all happened between 1933-1945. I don't think that there is another record anywhere of such a number of deliberately caused deaths.

But there were 8 million people in Ireland when the Potato Famine began and there have never been more than 3 million since then. Food was shipped out of the country while the famine was going on.

Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard said...

Martin: I wasn't aware it was a competition with rankings.

Nor is anyone else who doesn't have a political axe to grind.

Put 'em all in the same category as genocidal tyrants, and don't worry about who outranks whom.

For that matter, why do murderous tyrants get extra evil-points for genocide? "Okay, tyrant 1 and tyrant 2 each murdered 20 million men, women, and children, but hey,
tyrant 1 was bent on wiping out a particular genetically-related cluster of human beings, but tyrant 2 was very diverse and inclusive in his slaughtering, so tyrant 1 is worse than tyrant 2."

It's all very silly, and "who's more evil" games are *always* engaged in with an agenda. At present the agendas of the various groups playing this game revolve around defining normal human attitudes as sociopathy, when the humans in question happen to be white.

It's normal and human for people to care more about an evil that affects them, or is closer to them personally, culturally, historically, whatever. "White people" (that is, Western European white people and members of their diaspora elsewhere) probably do freak out about Hitler more than history's other monsters, for obvious reasons. (And that will fade as time passes, memories fade, and other tragedies and monsters take the stage.) Other whites remember other monsters, for obvious reasons.

So Murray isn't wrong about "what white people care about" per se. He's dead wrong in the noxious implication that being emotionally invested in (interested in, concerned about, aware of, whatever) yourself and your own is not only a pathology (instead of standard human psychology), but a pathology unique to Europeans.

Same goes for people playing the game on the other side - "only an anti-Semite or neo-Nazi would decline to give the evil-gold to Hitler!".

It's all so tiresome and childish.

SDaly said...

Marty -

I know why Murray made the statement, but people are reflexively jumping on "but Mao", and "but Stalin". Murray doesn't care about any of that, because he is interested in condemning all of European history as racist b/c "colonialism". That is not particularly controversial on the left because the modern left is founded on the twin pillars of "anti-colonialism" (which includes racism) and socialism (which is why Murray will not attack Stalin or Mao).

Jim at said...

65,844,954 of us, who voted for her, feel cheated, too.

Actually, you should feel stupid.

Laslo Spatula said...

The NYT recently reported that Soviet women had better sex while under communism.

As far as I can tell, the NYT has not reported how Nazism affected German women's sex lives.

As in all things with the NYT: take their reporting and then work backward. That should explain it all.

I am Laslo.

YoungHegelian said...

@Left Bank, Lurker,

"What country has ever been invaded because it was murdering too many of its own people?"

I'll grant Lurker Rwanda, but Cambodia I've got problems with.

I think the Vietnamese & Soviets were happy to take moral credit after the fact for shutting down the Killing Fields, but I think in reality they just didn't want what they considered to be a Maoist satellite right next door. To permit China such influence had not only Viet Nam itself surrounded by China, but also put China in a position to pry Laos away from Viet Nam's control.

Known Unknown said...

"Don't get the comment, but I once crashed a bike when a loose skateboard crossed my path."

You should've created a "real" viral video of that moment!

n.n said...

I don't think that there is another record anywhere of such a number of deliberately caused deaths.

The larger number was because they resisted, and did not go along to get along, thus mass abortion fields, refugee crises. The conflict between the socialists and communists was because in left-wing ideology there can be only one. The same conflict occurred between the Soviets and Maoists. Both ideologies are universal and through the scalpel. The Islamic ideology has this in common with other left-wing ideologies: universal and aggressive.

JaimeRoberto said...

In the March Madness of Genocidal Tyrants Hitler definitely deserves a #1 seed along with Stalin, Mao and Genghis Khan.

gilbar said...

What sort of FREAK rides around on a bicycle, with an open umbrella?
You're Just ASKING to end up in the canal!

John Lynch said...

Hitler didn't think they were white.

James Smith said...

The most abhorrent part of the Nazi killing machine was it's scientific support system. It was so obsessed with genocide that when it's Armies were being driven back and in desperate need of reserves and supplies - Nazi officials were still tying up valuable transportation resources to ship people to the killing camps.

Margaret Sanger just nodded and smiled in her approval.

James Smith said...

The Nazis must have been liberals. They espoused the Aryan ideal, but not of the top tier leaders looked like an Aryan. Standards for thee not for me.

Gospace said...

johnhenry100 said...
William,

Hitler was what, the 4th ruler in German history? Which goes all the back in the mists of time to the 1860s?


Something a lot of people don't realize, just how new Germany is. I have Germanic ancestry, dating back to the late 1700s. My wife has Germanic ancestry dating back to the late 1800s. But none of our ancestors were German. They were, as near as I can tell, Bavarian, Bohemian, and Prussian. They spoke the same language- German- but none were from Germany.

Scott McGlasson said...

This sounds like the same line of thought that claims we didn't nuke Germany because they were white, completely disregarding Germany's surrender date.

n.n said...

Hitler didn't think they were white.

They were not white-white, a darker shade of white, a brown white, perhaps, and, most important, they were privileged. Social justice demanded redistributive change and that select numbers be planned and some cannibalized for clinical progress.

gilbar said...

John Lynch said... Hitler didn't think they were white.

Hitler didn't think they were human
fify

Kinda like ilhan omar thinks about Trump/ one is human, one is not

Rory said...

"But there were 8 million people in Ireland when the Potato Famine began and there have never been more than 3 million since then."

The population of the island is 6.5 milion, 4.8 million in the Republic.

Michael Fitzgerald said...

YoungHegelian@11.03AM What country has ever been invaded because it was murdering too many of its own people?

Iraq? Syria? Serbia? Grenada?

narciso said...

I guess she realizes he's the war emperor:

https://saraacarter.com/trump-considers-classifying-drug-cartels-foreign-terrorist-organizations/

William said...

There have been quite a lot of German speaking kings in European history although they were not technically of the German nation- state. Many people consider Catherine the Great to have been the most enlightened and successful ruler of the Romanovs and she was totally kraut. The Romanovs periodically married German princesses and were more German than Russian. The Hanovers were quite proud of their German heritage.. George III, after a tiff with his ministers, threatened to resign and move back to Hanover. Queen Victoria felt quite comfortable in her little German principality.....The various duchies, principalities, and kingdoms were literally a breeding ground for the royal families of Europe.......Sadly, the Prussians were the driving force in the unification of Germany and their ruling class, the Junkers, were a bunch of assholes. The Saxe-Coburgians would have done a much better job.

narciso said...


https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-recording-netanyahu-says-far-right-merger-saved-likud-from-election-defeat/

narciso said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
William said...

If you want to commit genocide, I don't recommend doing it to the Jews. History will not remember you kindly. Hitler will, over the ages, get the kind of press Nebuchadnezzar and Ramses have received. The better target is kulaks. Can anyone here cite the name of a single kulak who perished during their famines.

catter said...

This is a cruder version of "Hitler bought the methods of colonialism back to Europe." which is an interesting line of thought. I'd say we tend to overuse race in explaining atrocities and oppression, but it's always worth considering.

Marty said...

SDaly said, I know why Murray made the statement, but people are reflexively jumping on "but Mao", and "but Stalin". Murray doesn't care about any of that, because he is interested in condemning all of European history as racist b/c "colonialism".

Just so. But the fact that many of our fellow commentariat missed the point just goes to show, as Buwaya might point out, how good the Frankfort school-trained clerisy has been at playing on our natural human longing for utopia to coax the majority of the West onto the suicidal path Lenin maniacally and cynically predicted 100 years ago.

But I'll always cut Laslo slack.

johnhenry100 said...

Scott,

Not just the dates on the A-Bomb. In 44 & 45 the Army was flying a B-29, equipped for the A bomb, around Europe.

It was called the silver plate, if memory serves.


Partly to freak the National Socialists out but also scouting routes and conditions if we did get the bomb before Germany folded.

We most certainly had plans to use it on Germany.

John Henry

narciso said...

This lays out how it might have happenec:

http://hugoclub.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-berlin-project-2017-gregory-benford.html?m=1

Revisiting shibumi the mentor to nicholas hel. Survives the fire bombing of Tokyo, he falls into the Soviets hands scapegoated for the occupation of Shanghai

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