January 17, 2019

"When Did SJW Culture Start?" — "There are 6 different causal threads...."

108 comments:

Ralph L said...

You found a Mr. Rogers replacement.

Sebastian said...

The coddling idea is exaggerated, because in promoting SJW culture it is just a prog tool, but the lefty power play argument, when they had reached critical mass and could exploit "polarization" fully, makes sense.

John Borell said...

Apparently, I'll never know; I can't sit through an 18-minute video to find out.

This is why, with few exceptions, I prefer the written word to video. I could have skimmed the transcript in less than a minute.

rehajm said...

I like his use of the term ‘call out culture’.

Saint Croix said...

Joe Rogan has an awesome podcast. He gets such an eclectic group of people. A surprising number of interesting people show up at his studio. Everything from mixed martial arts to marijuana, Mel Gibson to Danica Patrick.

Here's one of my favorites, On Bigfoot

Lucid-Ideas said...

Foundations - Post WWI - Frankfurt School
First Wave/Initial Battles - 1960s
Exploitation of Initial Success - 1970s
Setbacks - 1980s
"The Building of Castles" - 1990s
"Rally the Troops" - 2000 to 2008
On my signal....Unleash Hell - Obama

Ralph L said...

I like his use of the term ‘call out culture’.

O for the days of simple virtue signaling.

traditionalguy said...

By 2014 Soros and friends had the College Communities Organized by Saul Alinsky. And Saul doesn't permit respect for opposing positions.And the Professors were told to say nothing or lose their career track to their huge pensions.

Derek Kite said...

I was looking forward to when Haidt kicked back, put his feet on the desk and talked about boxing or something like that. Didn't happen. Maybe another hour would have done it. Good interview though.

Gahrie said...

I believe it started with Anita Hill.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

The left's ideology consists of ACTUALLY pulling the fire alarm when they hear someone say something they don't like.

Not healthy.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

"I have to teach to the most sensitive person int he class."

Code for - I must walk on eggshells so I don't light a match under the leftwing radical kid raised to be an intolerant speech police nazi.

tim maguire said...

John Borell said...
Apparently, I'll never know; I can't sit through an 18-minute video to find out.


Same. I hate watching video on the computer (1 minute of reading can accomplish more than 10 minutes of viewing) and I can't have the sound on at work (my office is very quiet and it would piss people off). My blog reading is usually a few minutes here and there as a break between bursts of activity. Videos don't fit into that usage pattern.

0_0 said...

Joe Rogan is a coarse idiot.

I also do not watch anyone ramble through a video on YouTube. Ever.

This does not mean some valid points or facts are not present, but they are not worth the slog.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Listen to the last minute. Creepy creepy stuff.

You can anonymously "tell on" your teacher if they offend you. The students in leftwing New York wanted this.

Wince said...

Excellent interview worth every second, yet whose unmistakable but unspoken conclusion kind of proved the point about the avoiding the unspeakable.

Division, suspicion, intolerance, intimidation, ideological conformity and "call out" culture were locked-in at elite universities under Obama's DOE "guidance" and regulation.

Andrew said...

Speaking of which, there is an all-out coordinated assault against Karen Pence this morning (actually began last night). She has committed the offense of teaching art at a Christian school with traditional ist views on sex and marriage. It's getting so tiresome and predictable. I can only hope there will be a backlash. We often use the phrase, "This is how you get more Trump," but I'm honestly no longer sure. I still can't comprehend how the Dems won back the House. I understand it's a historical trend, but it also means too many people are willing to let the SJWs get away with it. And look at how the Republicans folded at the most recent accusations of racism against a colleague. I'm really beginning to lose hope in our country's future. For now we have a bully on our side, the President, and he's doing what he can. But he can only do so much on his own. Meanwhile the Dems and their allies in the press, and the SJW activists, are unrelenting in their attacks, and can wait him out while still causing tremendous damage to the country. I fear that Trump will only be a blip on the radar, unless something dramatically changes. When a decent and apolitical person like Karen Pence can be dragged through the mud for believing what millions of Americans believe, and there's no visible pushback, then it's hard to have any hope for this country. My question is, how many Deplorables are really out there? I'm not sure any longer that we're enough.

rhhardin said...

Too tedious to finish. Doesn't anybody do quips anymore.

rhhardin said...

It started with Jessica in the Well in the late 80s. Network news and soap opera women found each other.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

0_0

Joe Rogan is a coarse idiot.

LOL - You mean "course" of course. Idiot.

How is Rogan an idiot? He's participating in an interview. Did you actually watch the video so you can form your own opinion? or is that too scary? Too much of an intellectual challenge? Might learn something outside of the mind-crime box?

Saint Croix said...

Here's Rogan's 7-minute version of Bigfoot, from a comedy special.

I love how worked up he gets. He's an angry Bigfoot denier. And he goes through the evidence like he's ready to prosecute somebody. He cracks me up. That's the best cross-examination outside of My Cousin Vinny. I mean, Perry Mason has nothing on Joe Rogan destroying the Patterson footage.

Mike Sylwester said...

Thanks for the link to this interesting interview.

m stone said...

A lot of us can't sit through an 18-minute video. I find more people unlikely to engage others in extended face-to-face conversation. Social interaction is diminishing. I've seen that in my teaching at two universities and now in the community setting.

It's not a "Bowling Alone" breakdown necessarily (I'm walking on eggshells!), but a characteristic of our society. An archetype. If I won't give someone the time, I'm less likely to inquire, reflect, persuade, and simply be sociable. Weather-talk, sure. Politics, controversy, personal: never.

Haidt treads lightly in the classroom. So do we in our communities. The avoidance and by-passing practice have become very natural.

I disagree with Haidt in that I believe this cultural aberration, even the calling out, will self-correct, but we will never return to the same place, communication-wise.

m

Patrick said...

I don't know when it started, but it really hit its side when the SJWs figured out they could ruin the lives and careers of every day people. I'm thinking of the woman who tweeted something about white people not getting AIDS in Africa, and then getting fired by the time she landed. Once they got a taste of that power, there was no stopping the mob.

tcrosse said...

Joe Rogan is a coarse idiot.

Some people prefer their idiots to be refined.

Molly said...

Haidt makes some valid points: Social media creates "problems" in two directions: 1. It gives people an outlet to signal their virtue and therefore makes virtue signalling a potential source of social acceptance/prestige; 2. It gives other people evidence of deviation from "right thinking". So where we are today is in a culture of severe conformity to political correctness. (And on the other side, perhaps a culture of severe conformity to Trumpism -- the combination of the two leading to ever increasing chasm in political discourse. But it does evince itself in ways similar to the Salem witch trials, or to the medieval European dancing madness featured in Althouse a couple months ago.

Michael K said...

Good video. Heterodox Academy is a good site.

Rick said...

SJW culture has been around longer than anyone currently alive, people are noticing it now because it is expanding (nor is this the first expansion). So "when did it start" is not a relevant question.

Known Unknown said...

Never was a big fan of Rogan but I do really like his podcast format from the standpoint of

a) Going long enough to get really involved discussions about issues.
b) Having a remarkably diverse cast of interviewees.
c) Letting those people speak without constantly interrupting them.

The Roseanne episode was especially illuminating.

As for quips, the late night asshole set has quips til the cows come home that fit their incredibly narrow worldview.

Fernandinande said...

Apparently, I'll never know; I can't sit through an 18-minute video to find out.

"It all starts in 2014."

tim in vermont said...

Gillette has announced that they are giving a million dollars a year to SJW organizations to help free us of our toxic masculinity, BTW. Per their Twitter feed.

JMW Turner said...

Outstanding. These offended young adults (overgrown children) can drop a dime on their elders and screw-up their careers, in fact, are encouraged to do so. Where have seen this development in recent memory? And these leftist fools have the nerve to call those they disagree with Nazis. BTW,18 minutes seemed to fly by while listening and making coffee.

Drago said...

Lucid-Ideas: "Foundations - Post WWI - Frankfurt School"

Precisely correct.

The marxist Frankfurt School-ers realized early on that unlike anywhere else on Earth, American institutions and culture allowed for economic class mobility so any typical commie argument along those lines was destined to fail.

The fall back steategy for the leftists was to move to an "-ist" critique framework where leftist policies would be the only way out of America's "horrific" racist/sexist/misogynist/etc past and toward The Brave New World of the left.

Of course, at that same time the Marxists also understood that certain institutions in America provided too strong a defense against their leftist BS...so those institutions had to be systematically destroyed or, better yet, co-opted.

Those institutions are the Family, the Church, the Military, our civic organizations as well as the govt/education bureacracy and media.

Indeed it was time for these leftists to begin their long march thru the institutions.

And of course, this has been wildly successful.

Fernandinande said...

"Ideally they would cut off a stranger's head."

Laslo Spatula said...

"Gillette has announced that they are giving a million dollars a year to SJW organizations to help free us of our toxic masculinity, BTW. Per their Twitter feed."

Which ties into what I added to the end of that long thread:

I imagine that the people who support this ad 'helping' men to do the right thing overlaps greatly with the people who believe a woman should be able to kill her unborn child whenever that child is inconvenient.

Being lectured about a man's personal responsibility by the people who believe women cannot be responsible for their own sexual actions is grating.

Abortion = Toxic Femininity.


The Jacobins have their blind spots.

I am Laslo.

tim in vermont said...

I would bet that it became big due to gamergate and the Hugo Awards takeover by, well, SJWs

chuck said...

> Gillette has announced that they are giving a million dollars a year to SJW organizations to help free us of our toxic masculinity

They are going to double down. SJWs always double down.

Howard said...

Rogan identifies as a meathead

Howard said...

You people so scared of the weakest sisters on the left. Omega mens

Richard said...

Blogger JMW Turner said...
Outstanding. These offended young adults (overgrown children) can drop a dime on their elders and screw-up their careers, in fact, are encouraged to do so. Where have seen this development in recent memory? And these leftist fools have the nerve to call those they disagree with Nazis. BTW,18 minutes seemed to fly by while listening and making coffee.

The Red Guards.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

I notice the politically correct culture in smaller ways too.

A few summers ago I was trapped on the bike path on a warm summer evening because "Happy Thursday" bike riders where hogging the entire path. It's like waiting for a train to pass. Anyway, I stopped along with a few others and joked that the end of the line of riders -- the final person was the "caboose".
The young 17-20 something male was offended and he re-coiled. (How is "caboose" offensive?) How is it healthy to make everything offensive? or to be so brain-washed into PC culture that you cannot navigate between what is offensive, and what is benign.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Howard - People are pulling the fire alarm when they hear something they don't like.

You agree.

& yes - We are scared of you.

Jupiter said...

Bullshit. The problem is the universities. They are completely out of control, and are actively seeking the destruction of the society that makes their existence possible. Yet we keep giving them more money. That is the problem, and it makes it pretty damned obvious what the solution will need to look like.

Known Unknown said...

"the final person was the "caboose".

Your caboose is your ass, so maybe he was thinking you were calling him a rear end?

tcrosse said...

You people so scared of the weakest sisters on the left. Omega mens

They can cost you your job and your reputation, so there's that, tough guy.

Known Unknown said...


"Rogan identifies as a meathead"

So?

tim in vermont said...

Blogger Howard said...
You people so scared of the weakest sisters on the left. Omega mens


No Howard, we like a good laugh, just like the reason you CLAIM you come here. Maybe this fear thing is just projection on your part, just like calling your everybody “cuck” when you are the lamest cuck around here. That gets me every time, like when Trumpit says “Shlump,” if he doesn’t do it in a. comment, I feel cheated.

tim in vermont said...

Maybe I am not scared of them because they can’t take my job away or really hurt me in any way, but they certainly can cost young men their jobs for wrongthink and crimespeak. Get young men kicked out of college, etc.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Known Unknown -
I wasn't calling HIM a caboose, I was calling out the older gal at the end of the Happy Thursday train - the caboose.

Oh no!

tim in vermont said...

Plus I really don’t like that they have destroyed the genre of RomCom because the formula is not “woke” enough. And what they have done to SciFi is sad, trying to limit what writers can write about and still get published.

Anonymous said...

Andrew: We often use the phrase, "This is how you get more Trump," but I'm honestly no longer sure. I still can't comprehend how the Dems won back the House. I understand it's a historical trend, but it also means too many people are willing to let the SJWs get away with it.

Yeah, me too.

And look at how the Republicans folded at the most recent accusations of racism against a colleague.

And you think they would've learned by now. It was the sort of thing you'd expect from the Rs in congress, but I was dismayed by the number of people here who were obediently taking their marching orders from the NYT on the matter. The left doesn't give an inch for even their most rancid and in-your-face racists, but they have merely to raise an eyebrow to get the right to hang an entirely unjustified "white supremacist" struggle-session placard on one of their own, no questions asked, no narrative verified.

I'm really beginning to lose hope in our country's future. For now we have a bully on our side, the President, and he's doing what he can. But he can only do so much on his own. Meanwhile the Dems and their allies in the press, and the SJW activists, are unrelenting in their attacks, and can wait him out while still causing tremendous damage to the country. I fear that Trump will only be a blip on the radar, unless something dramatically changes.

Yup. For all the chest-beating, I get the impression that a lot of "deplorables" still don't seem to grasp what they're up against. You'd think they'd kinda get it when the Great and Good are screaming day-in, day-out, "you're garbage, we hate you, and want you dead"; they'd get a clue that things could be getting a wee bit serious for them and theirs. But apparently not.

It's one thing to get angry at the actions and rhetoric of your opponents, as one does in a political system in a normal state. And hey, maybe I'm just irrationally "fearful" (like the ignorant hating yokel with an over-developed amygdala that I am). But when the Great and Good go on mainstream tee-vee, and into print in the "prestige" press, and unashamedly, and to the applause of the Respectable People, call me a "garbage person", I begin to have the ever-so-subtle subtle sense that perhaps, maybe, possibly, something dangerous might be developing out there.

Lucid-Ideas said...

@Drago

My comment was (as are all my comments...) somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but yes, you and I are in agreement. Frankfurt School was key because it was the formalization and transition of Marxist-economic thought to Marxist-cultural (cultural-Marxism) thought. It happened after WWI because the systems that could have destroyed it at inception were demoralized and in ruins.

Cultural-Marxism, Frankfurt School, and SJWism are fundamentally an attack on what Jordan Peterson considers his 1st of 12 true axioms:

The fundamental assumptions and precepts of Western Civilization are correct

This is the first bulwark and redoubt from which all others flow, and it must be attacked first in order for them to win.

Why? Because if you can attack this one, and win, then the entire underpinning of modern society, government, social interactions, and economic interaction (which is their ultimate goal...MARXISM FOR THE WIN!) a flawed. The system must fall apart and they get to pick up the pieces.

robother said...

High trust cultures correlate with the highest standard of living. Low trust cultures the opposite. The globalist promise of imposing democratic or capitalistic forms on low trust cultures has achieved nothing like the convergence they predicted. But low trust cultures can be dominated by socialist strongmen (literally to the point of starvation of masses) in a way that high trust cultures cannot.

The Soros dream of convergence can only be realized by (1) destroying high trust culture from within --as Haidt is describing--and (2) importing low trust populations into high trust cultures.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Isn't the SJW phenomenon the triumph of the bourgeois? They see the world as a more or less arbitrary set of problems, and the only worthwhile human goal is to manage those arbitrary problems. Marxism (and Marx himself) were products of the bourgeois.

narciso said...

No alienated intellectuals are not the bourgeouis.

Unknown said...

I would have liked him to hammer the "adults" who agree to set up systems like anonymous reporting and then refuse to separate the wheat from the chaff. If the people in charge told more of these students to go pound sand we would have less of this. But "adults" who set up these systems and take them seriously are a real problem. Just as the students are, the people in charge seem most concerned with scoring their own points and burnishing their own reputations in the SJW world. Until that changes none of the rest of this will.

PM said...

Apres Le Pill, le deluge.™

Lewis Wetzel said...

From which social class do "alienated intellectuals arise? The SJW's have the values of the bourgeois -- they disdain loyalty to anything but socials status and money, they over value education and credentialing, they minimize national and cultural differences, and especially gender differences. Moreover, they are loyal to ideas, and not people, places, or things.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

The death of free speech.

It's spreading like a cancer.

SGT Ted said...

Snitching to authority in order to punish dissenters is what Fascists and Communists encourage. SJW culture is simply the application of the snitch culture that is central to totalitarian societies.

SGT Ted said...

"I would have liked him to hammer the "adults" who agree to set up systems like anonymous reporting and then refuse to separate the wheat from the chaff. If the people in charge told more of these students to go pound sand we would have less of this. But "adults" who set up these systems and take them seriously are a real problem."

That's because the objective isn't to solve problems. The objective is to create a totalitarian society where they get to wield power over and punish dissenters. They are well on their way.

Rick said...

From which social class do "alienated intellectuals arise?

They are the unexceptional children of the minor aristocracy trying to re-exert an authority their class has lost.

0_0 said...

db@h- I wrote 'coarse' and meant 'coarse'. Did your ESL class fail you?

My opinion on Rogan is based on past experience. This taught me he has nothing to say to which I need to listen. I won't spend 18 minutes to find out he remains useless.

Drago said...

Lucid-ideas: "The system must fall apart and they get to pick up the pieces."

Its been Full Cloward-Piven for quite a long time now.

Eleanor said...

Why do the signs telling kids they can tattle on their profs need to be hidden in bathrooms?

buwaya said...

This is a major reason we are leaving this country.

The US is no longer a free country. Laws are just a component of the cultural milieu, and only a small part of it. I feel more free in Singapore and Hong Kong and Manila, regardless of their legal situations. Their laws and circumstances may seem to constrain people, but these have not reached their minds.

You cannot have even a free personal conversation, even with your children, in Northern California. It is not merely a matter of public speech, but the fearful self-censoring is becoming ubiquitous. Choose carefully what you say and to whom, and to old trusted friends, from the good old days only. And California is your inevitable future.

As for getting over this - you won't. Its gone on too long without a crackdown, and now you have two generations of leadership that have fallen under this cultural control. Those "snowflakes", and more so all the "normal" kids who so fearfully comply with them - those are the people who will be running all your institutions, replacing the already fanatical, and already cowed, with even more fanatical and even more completely cowed. The state of your cursus honorum, your leadership track, predicts accurately. The nature of the people in the leadership track, in a worse state class after class, foretells the future. There is no way out of it without destroying the track itself.

This is why the only way out of this problem is to burn down Harvard - take that as a metaphor I guess. Which you won't do, until it is too late to even entertain the thought of doing it.

China was better off, in that way, in the case of the Red Guards. Their movement existed for only a couple of years and then they were crushed, expunged, sent to the countryside by the million, and sometimes massacred. Say what you like about Chinese methods, but they work in these cases.

I think that killing or jailing people is a far less effective method of social control than threatening livelihoods. A killing is too obvious, too immediate, and it creates a reaction. Each killing is a political problem, which you can overcome only with more killing, or ceasing the killing, and in that case watch out for retribution. You can kill your way to total control only by doing it on a very large scale.

Jailing political opponents may be even worse, as each becomes a cause. Again, the choice it to do none or very little of it or set up a gulag, do it on a Chinese scale.

But threaten livings and careers and you will achieve your totalitarian goals with far less risk.

And Howard is an idiot of course.

cheesehunter said...

Because bathrooms are Safe Spaces: /thafe thpathus

Lewis Wetzel said...

Blogger Rick said...
. . .
They are the unexceptional children of the minor aristocracy trying to re-exert an authority their class has lost.

Wannabe minor aristocrats. They are the children of the brewer who has bought himself a baronetcy. They hate the commoners because they know that they are much closer kin to them than to the great lords in their castles.

Saint Croix said...

And look at how the Republicans folded at the most recent accusations of racism against a colleague.

I assume you're talking about Steve King? Here's the quote that got him in trouble.

“White nationalist, white supremacist, Western civilization — how did that language become offensive?”

King denies that he is a racist, by the way. He's trying to spin the comment that he only meant to defend western civilization, not white nationalism or white supremacy.

The best way for King, or any Republican, to attack racism is not to denounce white supremacy or white nationalism. I mean, that's okay, but that's not where the battle is. The vote was 424 to 1. (And the 1 was a Democrat, not King). Republicans should also attack black racism and Asian racism and racism by anybody.

That's the obvious play for Republicans. Why defend white racism? Attack all racism.

And the best way for Republicans to do this, is to start denouncing all the race counting and racial division that goes on for the census. Start with that, and attack race as a concept. Attack racial division and mock the bad science. And make fun of the people who are obsessed about race. There are far more of those on the left than the right.

Democrats hope to get votes by defining and damning Republicans as racist. Of course we should denounce David Duke and any Republican who sounds like David Duke. But that's just playing defense. The way to go on offense is to attack race and all the racial assumptions made by liberals. Attack all their racial theories, their constant racial division, and their racial assumptions. Attack the whole stupid thing as a 19th century mentality. Republicans need to start mocking not just racists, but race itself. The benefits we get from race science are negligible compared to all the horrible economics that get voted into office by people who get elected via race, race guilt, race obsessions, etc.

The people who prattle about racism all the time actually love racial division, it's their favorite game to play. Destroy the game and refuse to play it. Stop dividing Americans into races. Stop counting them that way. Just stop it and make Democrats defend their racial counts and their racial divides. It's the Democrats who hated black people for decades, and now it's those same Democrats who are hating on white males and white females. Republicans should start saying, "I hate race, it's so stupid," and let the other side explain how racial division is wonderful and we should all love it.

buwaya said...

"They are the unexceptional children of the minor aristocracy trying to re-exert an authority their class has lost."

Their class has not lost authority. Its authority has increased.
Your social system is far more oriented towards formal credentials than it has ever been.

Andrew said...

@Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard,

Thanks for responding, and I couldn't agree more.

As Aragorn famously said, "Open war is upon you, whether you would risk it or not."

Love your name, by the way.

buwaya said...

The only serious attempt, with a prospect of success, to push back on this problem, to start a preference cascade of reaction going right inside the institutions of the cursus homorum, was that of Milo Yiannopoulos. Yes it may sound strange to credit such an odd duck as Yiannopoulos with such significance, but it is so.

It is no accident that he has been effectively attacked, demonetized and discredited. He was a very dangerous enemy.

Andrew said...

@Saint Croix,

Agreed. I would love to see the Repubs go on the offensive in such a way.

Concerning King, what bothers me about these incidents is the rush to condemn, and the requirement of self-flaggelation. It's virtually a religious ritual, except racism is the unpardonable sin from which there is no repentance.

The news media always have their antennae up to hear the racist dog whistles blowing. Unless, of course, they're the ones actually blowing the whistle.

Ralph L said...

O_O, Haidt did at least 90% of the talking.

Gilette should realize that the people favorably impressed have quit shaving--including the men.

Ralph L said...

Their class has not lost authority. Its authority has increased.

I think he meant moral authority.

People will actually read what's on bathroom walls. Bulletin boards not so much.

buwaya said...

"The news media always have their antennae up to hear the racist dog whistles blowing."

They will use whatever material comes to hand, and will manufacture it from nothing if they have to.

Get it in your heads - you are dealing with a propaganda system, it does not matter what you do or say, it will not affect the output of that system, or certainly not to your benefit. The system exists only to put out its message, not yours. You can't argue with them, or through them, unless you are as full of subversive tricks as Trump, sneaking messages through. But that is subversion, not argument.

buwaya said...

"I think he meant moral authority."

Moral authority is what the people who make decisions and control speech say it is.

buwaya said...

It does not matter what you do or say unless you have a loudspeaker as powerful as the opposition. In the long term power is all, not cleverness or being "right".

Lucid-Ideas said...

@Buwaya

I agree with a lot of what you say, with one exception - the idea that the cursus honorem hasn't changed by what has occurred.

There was a sub-reddit regarding the r/DarkEnlightenment of which I believe you are probably familiar with both the term as well as the movement, so I'll skip all that.

Many (not majority...) have come to the conclusion internally that perhaps they pushed too hard. That the cultural changes they were unleashing fearlessly stared into the abyss, and to their surprise, something has stared right back at them. I think that these people, some of whom are deep-staters, were truly unprepared for this. Moreover, they likely have information and data that suggests the squeeze itself was responsible for the vehement reaction.

I could cite example upon example, but the most interesting of which would be the recent Gillette ad. The top twitter comment is a humorous 4chan reference to Gillette being for cucks.

The pirate signal still gets through sometimes, sometimes amplified a thousand times over. Do not lose hope. Some of us are still in this fight.

hstad said...

Lewis Wetzel said..."Isn't the SJW phenomenon the triumph of the bourgeois?"..."..Marxism (and Marx himself) were products of the bourgeois..."1/17/19, 10:20 AM.

You are correct! But it all started with Plato who was an 'Idealist' (like Marx) and Aristotle who was a 'Realist'. To Plato, in democracy people would plunder the property of the rich and like Marx he pushed the idea of executing the the rich for arbitrary reasons. Aristotle disagreed with Plato on this. Despite the fact that democracy violates proportional justice (punishment must fit the crime). To Aristotle, democracy has the highest utility, even higher utility than philosopher kingship. In essence, Plato believed in sweeping away everything, like Marx, while Aristotle advocated trying one thing, and if it worked, trying the next thing (stair-step). Plato's biggest problem was he loved the Elites to rule, like Marx, and that was both their Achilles heels!

Lucid-Ideas said...

One other point @Buwaya. The humor. There is so much mockery, so much laughter coming from the deplorables right now. It is even coming from people that were supposed to be on their side. The absolute lunacy of their purity-spiral cannot be ignored, and hasn't been. As some people have laughed, so more people have laughed, and now the President of the United States is tweeting Warren's campaign slogan as "1/2020th" to the ENTIRE FRICKIN' WORLD.

Voltaire was wrong. It's not criticize. It's laughter.

"If you want to know who rules over you, look at whom you are not allowed to laugh at."

hstad said...

"...To Plato, in democracy people would plunder the property of the rich, executing the the rich for arbitrary reasons..." Thus the two great examples, the American Revolution and the French Revolution are perfect contrasts of Plato's and Aristotle's beliefs. The American founders (Aristotle's ideas) realized mankind had problems and set up the Constitution to control those issues. The French Revolution (Plato's ideas) started ok, but morphed into executing innocents because of directives by the Elites. Hell, even Thomas Jefferson, who loved the French Revolution, distanced himself from it when he saw that the French Revolution and its Elites went to far with the executions. Marxism is a perfect example of the rule by Elites.

buwaya said...

"Many (not majority...) have come to the conclusion internally that perhaps they pushed too hard."

That is the reaction of the previous generation, graybeards and emeritii. But it is only a reaction, spotty, occasional, conducted in a state of intense fear (these aren't heroes) and temporary. I have heard plenty of this over the years, some from these very people. And yet here we are.

They have no choice in their successors.

buwaya said...

Its a fault of age I guess but -
I remember humor vs PC going back a very, very long time.
Back to when one would not get fired or blackballed for it.

And yet, again, here we are.

gahrie said...

Republicans should also attack black racism and Asian racism and racism by anybody.

The Left simply dismisses this by insisting that only White people can be racist.

Rick said...

Wannabe minor aristocrats. They are the children of the brewer

Some surely. But a disproportionate number seem to be children of journalists and academics who concluded activism is their highest calling. And why wouldn't they given how much easier it is to rant about the Patriarchy in Pride and Prejudice than it is to teach writing and grammar.

So they are seeking to become our version of Political Kommissars.

buwaya said...

They already are your commissars.

It is not a emerging condition. It is not a future fear.

It already is. It has happened.

The only misunderstanding here is that most people are not in a position to understand the change in their circumstances. Their world views have not caught up with the actual state of affairs.

Mark Jones said...

John Borell said, "Apparently, I'll never know; I can't sit through an 18-minute video to find out.

This is why, with few exceptions, I prefer the written word to video. I could have skimmed the transcript in less than a minute."

You and me both. I'm always disappointed when I find an interesting link--and it turns out to be a video without a transcript. Life is too short. I move on.

SGT Ted said...

Buwaya is right.

Corporations, Media and Government are shot through with the New Fascists who think it's perfectly ok to ruin the lives of dissenters and the untermenchen.

Rick said...

Their class has not lost authority. Its authority has increased.

This is only true if you define their scope narrowly. While it's true that credentialism has replaced birthright as the justification for authority those justifications aren't important, the outcomes are. Government used to have to-the-death control over virtually everyone. Government has been losing authority for centuries, but in the US over last 50 years or so the trend first slowed and in the last 25 years or so government authority is increasing. In the EU government authority never dropped as much as it did in the US (and recovered faster) and has been increasing post WWII.

buwaya said...

" and in the last 25 years or so government authority is increasing."

Well, there you go.

And the class in question has expanded credentialitis to everything else besides government.

I look at this matter broadly.

n.n said...

Political congruence (PC) is selective, opportunistic, and politically profitable (PP).

Known Unknown said...

" I won't spend 18 minutes to find out he remains useless."

Looks like someone lost on Fear Factor.

Known Unknown said...

"I wasn't calling HIM a caboose, I was calling out the older gal at the end of the Happy Thursday train - the caboose."

Maybe he thought she was more of a cattle car.

Anonymous said...

Saint Croix: That's the obvious play for Republicans.

"Dems R Real Racists"!

Pure, original genius. Why didn't anybody think up this brilliant strategy before? If, if, if only Republicans had spent the last 40 years invoking MLK and extolling the virtues of color-blindness and judging people as individuals! And naming and shaming non-white racists! That would surely have put a stop to all this pernicious identity politics! How could this obvious winning approach have been overlooked all this time?!?!?!?

[Excuse me while I go find a concrete block on which to bash my forehead...]

Anonymous said...

Andrew: Love your name, by the way.

Thanks. It's the unholy bastard offspring of Matthew Sablan's autocorrect and a mockturtle comment.

Jim at said...

This is why, with few exceptions, I prefer the written word to video. I could have skimmed the transcript in less than a minute.

Seconded.

Jim at said...

You people so scared of the weakest sisters on the left.

Scared? Don't make me laugh.
Loathe? Despise? Pure contempt? Sure.

Scared? Not in the least.

Light the fuse, Howard.

buwaya said...

I am scared. You should be scared.
They aren't weak.

They can take great men, who created the fundamentals of mighty industries and categories of science, to whom many millions owe their careers and prosperity, and turn them into nonentities, make them apologize and slink away? Over and over again. Could the weak ruin Brendan Eich or Linus Torvalds or James Watson?

Bilwick said...

My theory (in response to the question posed) is that while originally "liberals" posed as the Rational Party--and with some justification given the religiosity of many conservatives--they have pretty much jettisoned reason over the decades, especially with the rise of the Feminist Left and others who believe logic is a tool of the Hated White Patriarchy. (If you think I exaggerate, just look here are the posts of Inga and Pee Pee.) So pretty much all they've got left is to shout people down and where possible, use Der Staat (their beloved) to suppress pro-freedom dissent.

In the Burt Lancaster movie LAWMAN the compromised marshal (Robert Ryan) tells the hero, "It's been a long ride down from the high country." From Eugene McCarthy and Adlai Stevenson to Trigglypuff, Smugglypuff, et al, it's been a long ride down to SJW Country.

bagoh20 said...

I have never been one, but the idea that religious Americans were the non-liberal ones is not accurate. Remember, it was religious Americans who mostly fueled the abolitionist movement, and outside of some fanatical groups, they generally also had a more tolerant approach to those they did not agree with. Relatively speaking, the religious were usually the tolerant ones. They were not the ones who rounded people up and sent them off to gulags and concentration camps just for being different.

bagoh20 said...

I respect Joe Rogan and find him intelligent, open-minded, and curious, but I have been disappointed in a lot of people like him for being so slow to accept that the Right has not been the problem with freedom and tolerance. It has been obvious for a long time that the left has been the control freaks, the oppressors, and the power hungry. I feel Althouse has been similarly slow here.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Blogger buwaya said...
. . .
They can take great men, who created the fundamentals of mighty industries and categories of science, to whom many millions owe their careers and prosperity, and turn them into nonentities, make them apologize and slink away?

Whose responsibility is this? Watson is not one to back away from a fight.
I think that you will find the fault lies with bourgeois institutions -- the press, academia, and banking.

Anonymous said...

Lewis Wetzel:
Whose responsibility is this? Watson is not one to back away from a fight.
I think that you will find the fault lies with bourgeois institutions -- the press, academia, and banking.


Well, yeah. The "bourgeois institutions" aren't quavering in front of besieging red guards, they're staffed to the gills with red guards. It wasn't outsiders who went after Watson.

I'm really puzzled by the attitude that "oh, well, somehow we just have to persuade the people in charge of our institutions to stop rolling over for those fanatical SJWs", as if they were a different lot altogether.

Lewis Wetzel said...

THE SJW's are the bourgeois purified, which is, I suppose, why its practice appeals to the sons & daughters of the bourgeois. The social justice warrior is bourgeois without residual sentimental belief in the redeeming qualities of patriotism or religion or romantic love. They have even reduced biological sex to a human concept rather than a biological reality.
But the idea is incorrect & it will fail. You can't build a world out of adverbs and adjectives. They are meaningless without nouns.

lee said...

SGT Ted @ 10:47 AM. no truer words....

Saint Croix said...

Abortion = Toxic Femininity

Laslo, great points at 9:32.

That rhetoric that feminists use, "toxic masculinity," is like saying men are poison. People who talk this way are deranged. And maybe we need to start saying things like "toxic femininity" to make the point of how awful this rhetoric is.

But of course women are not poison, any more than men are.

I do think feminism is toxic. Feminism is at this point a monstrous ideology. Girls and boys are being taught that girls are superior, better human beings. Men are defined as monsters, potential rapists, and sub-optimal human beings. Unborn children--both girls and boys--are defined as sub-human, as non-persons, as property. And then of course violence is done to these non-persons in the name of womanhood.

So, yes, feminism is poison. Anyway, I would switch from "toxic femininity" to "toxic feminism," if we want to describe this major problem facing our culture right now.

The nice people are humanists who like and respect all human beings. The women-first crowd are saying and doing monstrous things.

Anonymous said...

When you look at the Hollywood influencers who pushed the multiculturalist agenda, it's always Jews. Isn't that funny? It's also them who criticize anything against it. The Jewish groups also push for increased immigration in the United States, just search for it. Why would they do this though? To destabelize the Western countries.

It's quite easy to find out using the internet. It sounds like a conspiracy but it's really not. Whenever something in Western society is bad, you can always trace it back to a Jew. Is that a coincidence? No, because their Torah state that they will rule the world and they're actively pushing for it. Reading in fine print about the Weimar Republic will make you realize that there are numerous similarities between then and now - and they were the same masters then, as now.