The basic theory—explained to me between weary sighs and defeated shrugs—goes like this: Washington is at an impasse that looks increasingly unbreakable.... For a deal to shake loose in this environment, it may require a failure of government so dramatic, so shocking, as to galvanize public outrage and force the two parties back to the negotiating table.ADDED: I'm trying to understand "little use in trying to negotiate in good faith." I realize the author must want to say that Trump is in bad faith. But being "volatile" — or, redundantly, "prone to change" and "apt to reverse course" — is not in itself in bad faith. It's a style of negotiating, and I suppose it's annoying and hard to match and beat, but "bad faith" entails deception and fraud. Perhaps the author means that Trump's negotiating style is so effective that those on the other side of the deal feel that if they "negotiate in good faith," they'll lose, and that's why there's "little use in trying" their usual techniques.
[T]he one theme that ran through every conversation was a sense that the current political dynamics won’t change until voters get a lot angrier.... [O]ne congressional staffer who wondered aloud whether it might take a stressed-out air-traffic controller causing a plane crash to bring an end to the shutdown. And several aides worried that some kind of terrorist incident would end up serving as the catalyst to get the government up and running again....
If one thing unites most Republicans and Democrats on the Hill these days, it’s that there is little use in trying to negotiate in good faith with the Trump White House. The president is simply too volatile, too prone to change his mind in a fit of pique, too apt to reverse course after watching Fox News....
January 18, 2019
Some weary sighers and defeated shruggers are telling The Atlantic that only a shocking disaster can end the shutdown.
I'm reading "Waiting for a Shutdown to End in Disaster/Aides on Capitol Hill fear that a dramatic government failure may be the only thing to force President Trump and the Democrats back to the table", from McKay Coppins:
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167 comments:
It does take two to tango,
If everyone could keep their sighs energetic and their shrugs upbeat, what a wonderful world this would be.
Would a bear crapping in the woods without Forest Service assistance count as a disaster?
And golly, this whole thing would be over if Trump just compromised by giving the Democratics everything they want and then resigned.
“Most Republicans”? Fake news.
Maybe we just dont need or want a huge federal government.
force the two parties back to the negotiating table.
Keeping Nancy in the country is a start.
Via Insty:
Pelosi and the Democrats figured they could just blame Trump for the shut down, but it’s Pelosi and the Democrats who won’t come to the table. Pelosi took off during Christmas for a luxury Hawaiian vacation, her party went on a party trip to Puerto Rico and now she and her harpies were hitting the road for a week on an international trip. Does it sound like the she wants to find an agreeable compromise to open the government up?”
The president is simply too volatile, too prone to change his mind in a fit of pique, too apt to reverse course after watching Fox News....
Which side has changed its position and rhetoric on a wall and immigration, and which side has been consistent?
it’s that there is little use in trying to negotiate in good faith with the Trump White House
What crap. Put your offer out there first and see what happens. NO is not an offer, Nancy.
Easy to stop the partial gov't shutdown. Give Trump the $5b that he wants for the Wall. The American people want the Wall. The Mexican drug cartels don't want the Wall.
Is the entire Democrat caucus being bribed by the Mexican drug cartels?
We American citizens deserve to know! Can Bob Mueller look into this?
If one thing unites most Republicans and Democrats on the Hill these days, it’s that there is little use in trying to negotiate in good faith with the Trump White House. The president is simply too volatile, too prone to change his mind in a fit of pique, too apt to reverse course after watching Fox News.
What a bunch of BS.
Defeating the artist of the deal is proving not to be easy . So the Deep State guys want to see the game board to be thrown over by a disaster. Hmmm? Terrorist attack....school shooting...plane crash... stock market crash...so many to chose from. Or maybe DJT stands his ground until he can terminate the SES after the 30 days are up.
It seems as if they are wishing for that disaster. Oh please, oh please, oh please. What rotten fucks...
They know if they had power they could manufacture that disaster. THat's what the little steam cloud over their head says about them...
The shocking disaster that's at the root of the sighing and shrugging is the fear that the shutdown might reveal that we don't see any difference - that, when tested, a good portion of the government is an unproductive jobs program for ungrateful people.
Just what would it hurt to put up a wall?
Fences make good neighbors. So do walls.
$5 billion and end chain migration.
The last paragraph is a partisan joke. We are doomed.
Democrats -The Party of NO.
Is the entire Democrat caucus being bribed by the Mexican drug cartels?
I've been wondering about that.
Why do I think “volatile” really means he fights back, doesn’t roll over?
Doesn’t do what we want?
What if we got a dramatic disaster which was caused, deliberately, by illegals? At the moment we have a such disaster with all the illegal drugs being brought in by illegals, in addition to the countless crimes (property, some murders, traffic deaths), but none of that is widespread dramatic as a plane into a building.
Even then, the Ds wouldn't give in on the wall.
Who is Mackay Coppins?
Volatile like a fox.
The Democratic leadership hasn't done anything in good faith since Tip O'Neill sat down with Ronald Reagan.
Rumor has it Ruth Bader Ginsburg will retire before the end of the month. That ought to be a disaster for the Democrats anyway.
Note that none of the disasters imagined by The Atlantic include people being killed or murdered by illegal immigrants.
Not being able to buy lettuce or waiting in line at the airport is the kind of thing they imagine most intolerable.
there is little use in trying to negotiate in good faith with the Trump White House.
That's complete and utter BS. He wants a (relatively) tiny amount of money for wall funding. Anything that doesn't have it is DOA. This is screamingly obvious. There's lots of room for other things in there, but it's silly to say that he won't "negotiate in good faith".
“good portion of the government is an unproductive jobs program for ungrateful people.”
Before he retired my brother was doing training for the IRS. That’s almost the exact same words he used to describe what he experienced.
If one thing unites most Republicans and Democrats on the Hill these days, it’s that there is little use in trying to negotiate in good faith with the Trump White House.
Negotiate in good faith with the Trump White house? Now, that's a novel idea. Someone should try it.
"The president is simply too volatile"
...said the Plutonium atom to the sodium atom while they discussed their problem's solution being the sweet-meteor-of-doom.
Trump is the only sane one
"That rasafrasen Trump! He makes me soooo mad!
If only something would happen that would kill like, hundreds of people...not important people...not anybody we know, I mean people, like in...the south or something...what's one of those places called? Whatever, it doesn't matter. You know what I mean. Anyway, that would show 'em who really cares about people and it isn't Donald frigging Trump!"
Well if the illegals are stopped you also would not be able to buy lettuce
[T]he one theme that ran through every conversation was a sense that the current political dynamics won’t change until voters get a lot angrier...
[Palm to Forehead] An angry electorate is the reason why we will get MORE shutdowns, not fewer. Even before Trump, the issues open to compromise were shrinking. Politicians do what their angry base tells them to do.
Not to be overly dramatic, but the room for compromise is shrinking because our common culture is shrinking. Fewer Americans think they share a common cause with their fellow citizens. Hell, fewer Americans believe their fellow citizens even need to be citizens. We're just occupying the same area, fighting for the advantage.
[O]ne congressional staffer who wondered aloud whether it might take a stressed-out air-traffic controller causing a plane crash to bring an end to the shutdown.
Damn. The Left wished this when the striking air traffic controllers were fired by Reagan, but they knew not to say it out loud.
"Rumor has it Ruth Bader Ginsburg will retire before the end of the month."
Put the codes back in the briefcase Colonel. we have or Tsar bomb - Trump
"The president is simply too volatile, too prone to change his mind in a fit of pique, too apt to reverse course after watching Fox News...."
If you can't stand the heat, you'd better get out of the kitchen.
Lucy is angry because there's a new Charlie Brown in town telling her to take her football and shove it.
You have to seriously consider how low in IQ Pelosi has to be for her to think going overseas on a political PR tour for a week wasn't going to blow back on her. It really was like putting a "Kick Me" sign on her ass. Even worse, though, was the fact that she was depending on State Department security for her and her entourage. Seriously clueless behavior.
I'm just sitting here waiting for World War III or an alien invasion, I've been told that will fix things.
The President has asked only for what amounts to chump change in the budget to build segments of a border wall that any number of learned prognosticators have said won't get built in the next 20 years due to litigation over environmental and imminent domain issues. We've wasted far more money on far more absurd projects, so what fundamentally is the objection from Speaker Pelosi and her party that prevents them motivates them to deny the President what he's requested?
chickenlittle: Who is Mackay Coppins?
Depends on whom you ask. Wikipedia makes him out to be a journalist. The president says he's a "dishonest slob".
Yeah, I know, not mutually exclusive states of being.
If one thing unites most Republicans and Democrats on the Hill these days, it’s that there is little use in trying to negotiate in good faith with the Trump White House.
This presumes there is someone on the Hill interested in negotiating in good faith which is not just wrong but stupidly wrong.
(eaglebeak)
How would those sighers and shruggers have held up during the siege of Bastogne, do you suppose?
In any case, since the March issue of The Atlantic calls on the House to "Impeach Donald Trump!" in its cover story, I think we can gauge the significance of this stupid article.
Those 800,000 workers, 700,000 of whom likely vote democrat, can't miss more than two paychecks, so the standoff should end around the middle of February.
Helping this along is the latest Central American children's crusade and the fact that starting next week, Trump will be able to fire thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of these federal workers as part of a Reduction in force.
The president is simply too volatile, too prone to change his mind in a fit of pique, too apt to reverse course after watching Fox News....
Name some examples of that. I bet you'll see you are full of shit when you can't.
"Rumor has it Ruth Bader Ginsburg will retire before the end of the month."
We heard this one either last Friday or the Friday before (or maybe both).
Blogger Dave Begley said...
Is the entire Democrat caucus being bribed by the Mexican drug cartels?
To which I reply,
Waste of money, "Don't buy a single vote you don't need."
See also, "The Dictator's Handbook", available at Amazon.
“The president is simply too volatile, too prone to change his mind in a fit of pique, too apt to reverse course after watching Fox News....”
Indeed. Too bad Coulter and Limbaugh hold such power over him.
And Fox News too.
Only one thing will work: stop the entitlements.
That'll get our attention.
"Hoping for a disaster". Because nothing is actually happening that anyone is going to think is important, with a quarter of the US Federal Government closed.
I'm so old I can remember when The Atlantic was a magazine for the tolerably intelligent and curious middle-brow.
Now that I think about it, I remember quite a few publications like that. Is there any formerly "prestige" or "respectable" magazine out there that hasn't sold its birthright for a mess o' soap-opera-women pottage?
Reminds me of a conversation between Wally and the Beaver. The Beaver was dreading the next day of school because he had a project due that he hadn't even begun, but was hopeful that an overnight nuclear attack or natural disaster would get him off the hook. Wally said, "Nah, that kind of stuff never happens when you want it to." Words to live by.
Too bad Coulter and Limbaugh hold such power over him.
Like the pubic lice hold power over you.
Staffers who get their paycchecks from the fed government think civilization will soon collapse without the fed govt. I am shocked.
If Puerto Rico has another disaster, the Dems will lose the House--given how many are there.
"The American people want the Wall. The Mexican drug cartels don't want the Wall."
Fake news.
Every time the President speaks or tweets on the subject of the shutdown, he should mention that it is being held up by Democrats who won't allow a 0.1 percent increase in the federal budget to stop the South American invasion.
It used to be the Atlantic when it broke scoops like with stockman they actually had flesh and blood people not npcs
More than 70% of the American people want the wall.
Ginger Commies generally don't.
Or he should mention that the wall will cost less than half a single aircraft carrier.
Haven't we already seen examples of bipartisan bills moving through Congress? Hasn't Trump negotiated before successfully?
This is BS, enabled by the media who refuse to ask, "What's wrong with enforcing immigration laws?"
Just like they refused to bring up, when Obama used Title IX to justify kangaroo courts in which the accused has no legal rights, that it was unconstitutional and unfair.
(eaglebeak)
To the question: "Who is McKay Coppins?"
The answer: Used to work for BuzzFeed, covered 2016 campaign by claiming that Trump's campaign was a sham ... having written a 2014 BuzzFeed, article saying Trump was faking his political interests:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/36-hours-on-the-fake-campaign-trail-with-donald-trump
I'm moderately certain that the democrats are either hoping for or planning some sort of disaster in order to move the needle on this. The longer this shutdown goes on, the more problems with their position emerge:
1. It's only $5 billion. Or they could "negotiate it down" to $4 billion.
2. It's for a modest amount of wall, not the whole southern border.
3. We have lots of existing walls in place - are the democrats suggesting we tear them down as immoral? I would advocate Trump publically ask Nancy to put a bill in front of him to term down the existing border walls since Nancy calls them "immoral".
4. The democrats are saying there's no reason to negotiate with Trump, yet he's the one who has been in Washington non-stop asking to sit down with them. They are the ones being shown not to be sitting down with him. I'd rather see these assholes (both sides) exhausted after 16 hour days arguing with each other for 2 weeks straight....that at least would show effort. Right now, Democrats are showing no effort just pure politicking/hardline while the media blasts how 800,000 workers are going through hard times. How does that visual play out for the democrats again?
Give Trump the Wall. He’s too good at publicity.
while the media blasts how 800,000 workers are going through hard times
I work with a large financial institution, a large Bank that serves a much of America, which is currently offering payday style credit at modest rates to furloughed government workers if they need it.
I know of another USBank offering the same.
As the ad says, Man up!
Although part of me enjoys the chaos here, I'm glad I'm not flying, and I do have things for my work that require planning with Federal Employees who can't do anything right now. I will adapt. Some things' might have a schedule adjustment.
I have enormous sympathy for Feds who are compelled to work without pay. I have some sympathy for those who were skating by financially before this, and now are being hit by losing a month of pay. That's hard.
As a person of voting sway-ability, too, I have to say that not spending $5bn for a wall so that non-citizens can more easily enter this country, and holding hostage the paychecks of actual citizens in this dispute, this does not make me think favorably of the Democrat House of Congress.
Why do the needs of non-citizens hold sway over citizens?
"For a deal to shake loose in this environment" == "President Trump caves and we win."
I think the D's are realizing they don't have much leverage, short of a disaster. The voters aren't getting "a lot angrier" because President Trump is managing the shutdown so effectively
and/or not purposely maximizing pain ala President Obama.
Haven't multiple people been killed by illegal immigrants in border states since the shut down started? Or are we not interested in those failures of government?
For the Democrats and the media good faith means he agrees to open government now and negotiate on immigration later, and that later will somehow never come.
In other words, good faith means complete Trump capitulation.
It's happened plenty of times before with the Democrats, in other administrations, including on immigration itself.
“Why do the needs of non-citizens hold sway over citizens?”
Because non citizen’s votes lead to permanent majorities. See California, for example.
"that's why there's "little use in trying" their usual techniques."
Which is good, since everyone's usual technique was to make the GOP cave.
But it's also bad, since Orange Man Bad.
Democrats want Trump to take a massive loss. This is as important to them as passing taxes with George HW Bush so they could make him break his "read my lips" promise. But Trump is not Bush.
Obviously, give Trump half a fig leaf and the Democrats everything they want and this could be over this evening, but until Trump capitulates, there is no point negotiating.
Is the entire Democrat caucus being bribed by the Mexican drug cartels?
@Dave Begley, only the leadership.
The only logical conclusion is that Democrats are willing to knowingly risk an airline disaster, since they brought this up, rather than improve border security. Good to know.
Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard:
I'm so old I can remember when The Atlantic was a magazine for the tolerably intelligent and curious middle-brow.
Now that I think about it, I remember quite a few publications like that. Is there any formerly "prestige" or "respectable" magazine out there that hasn't sold its birthright for a mess o' soap-opera-women pottage?
I started reading The Atlantic in high school. My father subscribed to it for decades. I once subscribed to it. After The Atlantic stopped online comments, I stopped reading it.
I would add that when The Atlantic permitted comments, their protocol was - shall we say- rather squirrely. The Atlantic used Disqus commenting software. The Atlantic once blocked a comment of mine on Norwegian oil, which probably was because it was too pedantic- too many (3) links. At least that is the way I have seen my comments blocked on other Discus comment sites. On other Disqus comment sites, if a comment is modified, such as with fewer links, the comment gets passed and appears on the site. With The Atlantic, once I had ONE blocked comment- for being so pedantic as to have three links- all my subsequent comments were blocked. As far as I am concerned, to the devil with The Atlantic.
There must be a reason why typical Democrat intransigence and theatrics aren't working against Trump... it's because he won't act in good faith against our bad faith efforts! He's countering our mendacity by not swallowing it! Oh, the horror!
By refusing to engage and negotiate the Dems are saying that there is nothing they could ask for in return for finding Trump’s wall request that is worth the political win it would give him by delivering on his signature campaign promise. I think they have correctly assessed the value of said campaign promise to Trump’s longevity and 2020 prospects.
What possible disaster could you invoke? Anything involving terrorists or DHS would result in Trump immediately declaring an emergency and fully funding the agency, Congress or no Congress. Environmental disaster? EPA's as likely to cause them as fix them. School shooting? No one believes the fedgov can fix those. Plane safety? Putting aside which airline agrees to go bankrupt in exchange for backing the resistance, just privatize the branches of the TSA that handle groping and airplane viability. Hell, Trump could fire all the "stressed out" air traffic controllers and have precedent on his side! Food safety? Re-opening the government? You can't be serious.
The point is, no one with brains believe adding more chaos to America will -hurt- Trump. And the Democrats are clearly quite desperate after yesterday's complete humiliation. Next time the President will force down the Speaker's jet into West Virginia, or seal off her offices. He has more power than her, and isn't afraid to let her know it.
For 30 years now they have been warning us that the only thing that is going to put out the global warming fire tornadoes will be the world wide flood, and it's going to happen by some day in the near future!
The only logical conclusion is that Democrats are willing to knowingly risk an airline disaster, since they brought this up, rather than improve border security. Good to know.
Democrat liberals and Progressives are hoping for a disaster. If it's something that is only an uncomfortable inconvenience that occurs, no one will demand that the largest government possible is necessary to prevent all disasters.
Progressives induce horrendous suffering always for the greater good! You know, like National Socialism and Communism.
The Atlantic, like most "serious" media properties, stopped being viable commercial concerns long ago. Back in the day these things had to sell magazines and advertising. They were businesses. They had to be interesting to enough people to do this. The Atlantic targeted a certain sort of person and had to attract as many of that sort it could.
Other serious magazines, even then, were not commercially viable and survived as vanities for their owners or as political outlets. Or something of both - consider "Mother Jones" and "National Review".
These days most of whats left is "Mother Jones" style. The Atlantic is now owned by Laurene Jobs, Steve Jobs' widow, as her own vanity operation.
All this nonsense is occurring because Pelosi won't spend $5 billion to help secure the border and enforce the immigration laws.
Quit trying to act like "both sides are to blame" or say "everyone should stop acting like Kids, blah, blah".
Trump is willing to negotiate a lower number or horse-trade - Pelosi isn't.
Pelosi did something that has NEVER been done before, she denied the POTUS use of the House for the State of the Union.
Things are getting so crazy, I think that a Democrat could shoot 10 Republicans in the House, and everyone would just Yawn. Even the Belt-way Republicans.
Never let a disaster go to waste.
Buyawa:
And the Philadelphia Inquirer is now owned by a non-profit set up by a billionaire who sold his cable TV business for mega bucks. The non-profit accepts donations and I guess a liberal like George Soros could / may give them a few million a year to help them out but he, of course, would never interfere in its editorial decisions wink wink.
Airline and passenger screeing should be funded by a passenger head tax levied at the state level and the screening protocols and technologies could be overseen by a national regulatory group staffed by ex-govt police and secret service agents. Problem solved so Mitch McConnell should put together a bill that covers that ASAP.
Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard said..."I'm so old I can remember when The Atlantic was a magazine for the tolerably intelligent and curious middle-brow."
I'm tolerably intelligent and a curious middlebrow. I subscribed to the Atlantic for a long time - and then sporadically after that as they begged me to renew with near nothing rates. But, I'd pretty much stopped reading it about a decade ago.
I thought it was a great magazine (along with Esquire and Car & Driver) to read when I was on airplanes a lot. Really talented writers like Tracy Kidder and Caitlyn Flannigan. It used to be a great variety of long form non fiction that rarely had a political bent. Great reading for an hour and half or two on a plane. They lost me when they went all politics all the time.
I think writing about real stuff is too hard for most people.
And the Atlantic now is owned for all intents and purposes by Lauraine Powell Jobs
Only the dems progs and Inga think Trump is volatile on this topic. Trump’s message has been very consistent for a couple of years. Wall and no chain migration.
I don’t understand where “volatile” comes in.
Matthew Sablan: "Haven't multiple people been killed by illegal immigrants in border states since the shut down started?"
Those weren't Murder Murders.
Those were "spark of divinity" murders.
Inga can explain it to you right after she explains her over the top praise and support for the rabid openly-antisemitic destroy-Israel leaders of The Chicks March.
President Obama acted in bad faith against Republicans in 2013, agreeing to cuts, then using already planed cuts instead of the new ones he promised.
Trump hasn't acted in bad faith at all. He's said "fund the Wall, or the gov't remains shut down." When the Democrats, and corporate owned "Republicans" who want more cheap labor that can't complain about bad working conditions, are willing to give Trump the Wall funding, they'll get a deal.
Until they're willing to let Trump have that win, they won't.
Refusing to cave in to Democrats and creeps is not "bad faith". Cutting a deal and then going back on it is.
As others have commented, right now we ARE having a "disaster" for the Democrats.
1: A bunch of people whose unions support Democrats aren't getting paid. So their unions are getting the dues money.
2: ~1/4 of the federal gov't is shut down, and almost no one cares.
3: President Trump may very well get to start furloughing hundreds of thousands of Federal paycheck recipients (I'm too honest to call them "workers") if this keeps on going on.
The Democrats are losing. So a house organ of the Democrats is now cheering for disasters that kill lots of Americans.
Tells you pretty much everything you need to know about The Atlantic.
A Korean nuclear strike on California, a major depression with subsequent bread lines, a terrorist strike that cripples a major American city: there would be a fearsome price for such events, but, if in the end it resulted in the impeachment of Trump, wouldn't it really be worth it?
robother said...
Reminds me of a conversation between Wally and the Beaver. The Beaver was dreading the next day of school because he had a project due that he hadn't even begun, but was hopeful that an overnight nuclear attack or natural disaster would get him off the hook. Wally said, "Nah, that kind of stuff never happens when you want it to."
Leave it to Beaver was replete with such insights. One of the best shows ever. I put it up there with the Seinfeld and the Sopranos.
The Democrats are fine with a turd in the milk tank. Trump isn't. What is there to negotiate about?
Trump should stop treasury from funding congressional paychecks to the members and their staffs with the conditional that there is no payback for those wages when the shutdown ends.
"A Korean nuclear strike on California, a major depression with subsequent bread lines, a terrorist strike that cripples a major American city: there would be a fearsome price for such events, but, if in the end it resulted in the impeachment of Trump, wouldn't it really be worth it?"
Environmentalist Chicken Littles have been hoping for similar catastrophes for decade. They need something like that to finally prove themselves right, and the actual devastation would at least quell their constant fear of the possibility, and maybe put them out of their, and our, misery.
Oh geez. This isn't even a full shutdown. The Department of Labor already got its full budget approved prior to this drama. Not a single federal employee at Department of Labor has been affected by the "shutdown"
The most affected are the Chattering Classes. Get over yourselves.
Illegal immigrant jumps wall at Pelosi compound and kills her granchild.
And all of a sudden, Pelosi wants border security.
Keep it shut down. We want a smaller governmen, laying off non-essential personnel is a good start. Learn to code, federal swamp critters.
It would be amusing if it weren't evidence that we, as a species, are doomed. The political establishment is filled with some of supposedly the most educated and worldly people our country has to offer. Yet after three years of direct and personal experience, they still don't have the slightest clue about who Donald Trump is, what he represents, or how to deal with either of those things.
Mike
You wanna talk good faith? You talk to the Democrats who all voted for a wall in 2006--and now declare that it is "immoral".
You wanna talk good faith? See Feinstein, Dianne who got a rather explosive allegation from Ms. Blasey Ford in July or August, and sat on it until a "gotcha' moment in the Kavanaugh hearings.
You wanna talk good faith? You can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan, you'll save $2,500 per year etc. See Obozo, Barack H.
You negotiate with a guy who is used to negotiating with construction unions and corrupt zoning and planning officials in New York City, you better put on your big boy (or big girl) pants first. But don't blow smoke up my posterior with cries of "good faith".
Trump has been at the table since this started. The Dems have been in Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and swimming in Da Nile, and until Trump stopped them, headed overseas again while people are not getting paid. Blaming Trump is ridiculous. We know what Trump wants. He wants border security to protect the American people and their assets. What exactly do the Dems want? Who are they looking out for with this impasse?
The Dems have been calling Trump's letter to Pelosi ending her junket a childish stunt. It was just the opposite. It was a grown up telling immature teenagers that they can't go out to party until they do their homework. He was saying a very adult thing: You have responsibilities that come before playtime. Those responsibilities happen to be urgent and important to millions of people.
The problem with the Democrats is that what they want is non-negotiable --- they want Trump to be seen as utterly failing. This shutdown has little to do with the border wall per se. It has everything to do with the Dems needing to show their base that they are working to destroy the Trump administration root & branch.
Too many people involved in this issue are living in bubbles. It's easy to do so when every piece of major media you look at echoes back to you your confirming biases. The fly in the ointment is that about half of the electorate isn't paying any attention to those major media outlets any more.
Oh geez. This isn't even a full shutdown
The D's should make that point. Right now, their long-term position is getting killed by the shutdown i.e., that the current/expanded level of government service is important for quality-of-life.
We had a similar revelation locally during a mass-transit strike. If commute times didn't change, why subsidize that service?
Fen! Good to see you here.
I keep thinking the same thing....Dem Congress critter suffers family loss to illegal immigrant and Trump sends flowers reading "So Sorry for your loss, If only there had been a wall to protect them".
Is the entire Democrat caucus being bribed by the Mexican drug cartels?
I've been wondering about that.
As have I.
Tons of merchandise (drugs, humans, guns, cash) flow through the border equating to tons and tons of non-traceable currency.
You don't think politicians are getting their cut?
Whenever everyone repeats the same talking point, you know it's dead wrong. 11 million illegals? Ha.
Dems just want future democrats voters. Ha. Current dems won't benefit. I remember when follow the money was the first rule to determine a politicians motives and actions.
I understand and accept your point about a precise meaning for, and application of, the term “bad faith.”
Trump may not have fraudulent intent; but he also has no coherence or integrity when we consider how Mitch McConnell passed the first CR through the Senate before a group from the House came to Trump and raised hell.
That’s not Trump negotiating. That’s Trump floundering, unable to stick with his end of a deal.
As ever, the thing that I love about Althouse is what I hate about Trump; careful, disciplined, intentional use of the English language.
To cut a deal both sides need to get something they want.
Trump wants a wall.
The Dems want to destroy Trump
Hence no deal.
I'm glad to see that the Reduction In Force consequences are starting to become common knowledge. 5 more days!!
An interesting tidbit I learned today: Merit is one of the last RIF criteria. However, it is one of the first for "essential employees". That means the slackers are the ones that got furloughed, which means they will be the first to be RIFed.
"Journolist": The basic theory—explained to me by -
Not a single aide, staffer or intern is named as a "source". And we're not talking about deep background here. No need to go off the record.
I submit that that author at the Atlantic made the whole story up. Including his "basic theory"
We might as well be reading fiction.
"Fen! Good to see you here."
Thanks AJ. Missed you guys. But I'm just further proof that without a wall, all kinds of riff raff get in to the joint. ;)
It depends what the meaning of “is” is Chuck.
"That’s not Trump negotiating. That’s Trump floundering, unable to stick with his end of a deal."
When was it reported that Trump was involved in crafting the Senate CR? When was it reported that he signed off on it?
Mike
Besides, Chuck, we have to pass it to find out what’s in it. Because those are the words that matter. All the hot air being spilled is kabuki.
The democrats rolled out the welcome mat for illegals to cross the border.
Kids in cages and death are to be blamed on ---not democrats.
A month ago children were dying at the border due to the bad Orange Man, it was the most horrific thing! This month, it’s “what problem”? It’s almost as if they have no memory of what they said last week, or maybe they are incredibly cynical.
Trump has shown us that our government has been taken over by people with zero respect for us, I thank him for that.
I see LLR Chuck's newest "combat" hero Pelosi, she of the Gee My Life Was Endangered By Merely Thinking About Flying Into Afghanistan, did not deliver an effective performance today in support of the Dems/Left/LLR Open Borders team.
Well, a close brush with death is likely the cause for her stuttering and bumbling performance today that only a mother or a LLR could love!
We will place Nancy right next to Stolen Valor Hack dem Da Nang Blumenthal in the LLR Chuck Pantheon Of Courageous Democrats.
A venue that is packed to the brim by now.....
TIV: "It’s almost as if they have no memory of what they said last week, or maybe they are incredibly cynical."
It aint easy for resident lefties/LLR Chuck to remember all the all the previous lefty talking points they've spouted.
They usually just move seamlessly to the next smear as LLR Chuck demonstrates daily.
LLR Chuck may literally never fully recover from Trumps schooling of San Fran Nan this week.
Still, there is always the next "hot take" from the lefties at Vox or one of the FusionGPS collaborating Weekly Standard cucks or one of the many many many MSNBC "favs" of Chuck to look forward to.
Perhaps another "masterful" performance by noted Chuck-approved "journalist" Lawrence O'Donnell!! (I kid you not: Lawrence O'Donnell -- LLR Chuck approved "journalist!!)
LOLOLOL
And dont even get me started on LLR effervescent praise of Juice Box moron Ezra Klein!!
The hits keep coming and it just keeps getting bettet!!
Shocking disaster? Like, most people realizing that they aren't missing anything with 800k Fed workers gone?
Yeah, me too.
For the occasional or new reader unfamiliar with commenter Chuck:
Chuck said...
"I am afraid you are mistaking me for someone who has an interest in fair treatment of Donald Trump. I'm not your guy. I am interested in smearing him, hurting him and prejudicing people against him."
3/4/16, 4:46 PM
Here's the full "Chuck" comment from March 2016:
Chuck said...
eric I am afraid you are mistaking me for someone who has an interest in fair treatment of Donald Trump. I'm not your guy. I am interested in smearing him, hurting him and prejudicing people against him.
Since Trump seems to adhere to an anything-goes approach, I have adopted same.
I'll let FactCheck.org do the "fairness" thing: http://www.factcheck.org/2016/03/trumps-defense-of-his-university/
Once upon a time, Trump University and/or the Trump Entrepreneur Initiative got an A rating from the Better Business Bureau. As well as a D- and other grades in between. Trump doesn't currently have an A rating, or any rating, since the whole enterprise is shut down. Being sued civilly by the New York State Attorney General, and two class action lawsuits.
As for anybody who wants to go the "fairness" route, I'll let them pick and choose from any of about 25 articles in the last 5 days about the Trump University litigation. There is just one thing about all of them that stands out. In every case, the one person who is the most injudicious, the most reckless and the least reliable -- and I include Donald J. Trump, Megyn Kelly, Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, the attorneys for the parties, and everyone in print media doing fact checks -- the one person who is the standout "spinner" of the story is Trump himself.
We have a winner here:
MikeR: "Hoping for a disaster". Because nothing is actually happening that anyone is going to think is important, with a quarter of the US Federal Government closed.
1/18/19, 11:42 AM
They want a disaster to happen so it ends without having to actually give Trump his rather small request, because in the meantime, the shutdown is no big deal for Trump supporters.
"Is the entire Democrat caucus being bribed by the Mexican drug cartels?"
I have several anonymous sources to verify that that is the case. I have dates, names, amounts, and locations that these bribes took place, but will not provide these because. And you can trust me on this. The fact that I hate Trump should be enough to be credible.
But sir, you misapprehend. The Feral Gummit *is presently and long has been* a disaster.
I blame the voters - for tolerating expansion of the franchise beyond those why have any skin in the game.
Skeptical Voter at 2:19 - Your comments are dead on. You provide the perspective the media works so hard to hide.
"Journalism is about covering important stories. With a pillow, until they stop moving." -Iowahawk
As I understand the impasse, the dems don't want to give Trump $5b for a wall that a lot of the country wants, at no actual cost to the dems.
That's the holdout.
Regarding the now-awful Atlantic, here's a tidbit about the former editor of The Economist may which may shed light.
At age 70, this gent decides to learn some science. Among other things he remarks:
"My particular favourite is the periodic table, which I had never even heard of a year ago."
Derek Lowe has more, and some, uhm, comments, at
https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2019/01/10/learning-some-science-at-last
Well Lydia, unfortunately your "full context" quote added nothing to Chuck's defense. Just substitute anyone's name into the snippet FullMoon uses and you'll see what I mean:
OR
I am afraid you are mistaking me for someone who has an interest in fair treatment of Ann Althouse. I'm not your guy. I am interested in smearing her, hurting her and prejudicing people against her.
OR
I am afraid you are mistaking me for someone who has an interest in fair treatment of Mitt Romney. I'm not your guy. I am interested in smearing him, hurting him and prejudicing people against him.
OR
I am afraid you are mistaking me for someone who has an interest in fair treatment of Barack Obama. I'm not your guy. I am interested in smearing him, hurting him and prejudicing people against him.
OR
I am afraid you are mistaking me for someone who has an interest in fair treatment of Lydia. I'm not your guy. I am interested in smearing her, hurting her and prejudicing people against her.
OR
What's to defend about Chuck?
This shut down and all the ones that preceded it, President Trumps fault, right?
No one is paying attention, to busy dancing with their own tribe to care. The shutdowns are not the Presidents fault. The are not the fault of the Democrats, nor are they the fault of the Republicans.
Establishment Washington, Both parties, designs these shut downs.
The shut down is the planned bypass of democracy. Four to eight Democrats, are joined by four to eight Republicans and run the federal government. 420 Representatives and 95 Senators or locked out of doing their job, replaced by entrenched DC elites.
President Trump needs to tell the nation that he will sign no bill that does not appropriate $10 billion for physical border barrier. In order for the govt to reopen, they will need to send him legislation, he will veto, and Congress must override his veto. And congress can look forward to the next two years following the same pattern
Blogger MadisonMan said...
Although part of me enjoys the chaos here, I'm glad I'm not flying, and I do have things for my work that require planning with Federal Employees who can't do anything right now. I will adapt. Some things' might have a schedule adjustment.
I have enormous sympathy for Feds who are compelled to work without pay. I have some sympathy for those who were skating by financially before this, and now are being hit by losing a month of pay. That's hard.
They’re not “compelled to work without pay.” They will get paid for their work whenever congress gets off its collective ass and passes a budget. Many of them will get paid for NOT working.
Following the money, as we mention the cartels buying pols...
The Women's March loves Farrakhan.
Farrakhan was in Iran.
I would bet dollars to donuts the Iranians are sponsoring the Women's March.
Obama gave them the money to play in our politics.
Thanks ValJar.
“You have to seriously consider how low in IQ Pelosi has to be for her to think going overseas on a political PR tour for a week wasn't going to blow back on her. It really was like putting a "Kick Me" sign on her ass. Even worse, though, was the fact that she was depending on State Department security for her and her entourage. Seriously clueless behavior.”
According to several sources it appears that the trip was for 7 top House Democrats and 93 family members. On a trip to a war zone and 5 days in Brussels. I somewhat expect that they would have left the family members out of the quick trip in and out of A-Stan.
Pelosi appears to have massively violated the rules for bringing family members along last time that she was Speaker, but if this is true, that there were 93 family members, including the entirety of her descendants, as reported, scheduled to go, this is a new high in abuse. Rumor is also that she was bringing along the Dems’s entire House delegation on her weekend trips back to SFO. The gimmick is that since her private jumbo jet was going anyway, that anyone else that she brought along would pay commercial rates, which was roughly $100 between DC and San Francisco back in 2010. No doubt, that was what was going on with this latest junket. It is good that Trump and the WH have put a brake on this gross misuse of public funds.
Flash: Hysteria approaches as Trump causes ripples in the fake Democrat/mediaswine/DeepState shutdown swamp.
Where is the story about 93 family members on Pelosi's European vacation journey? I can't find it.
Sigher Says
ZPS
ironic in light of the revelations from that Kurdish paper, re the bomber,
https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/erdogan-graham-discuss-syria-safe-zone-attend-fazil-say-s-concert-23436
I want an investigation into how much tax payer money is paying for Pelosi and her family to travel the globe.
She should pay her own damn way. and if tax payers are paying for her and 97 others' travel and security? that is insane.
How is this surprising that the same democrats that were hoping for American casualties in Iraq to draw down GW Bush's numbers wouldn't also be hoping for a disaster on Trump's watch. This is all these people are about, power.
S&P 500 is up 13.6 percent since Christmas, despits all of the shutdown ‘chaos’, btw. Tough to find a tragedy in there.
Fen said...I'm just further proof that without a wall, all kinds of riff raff get in to the joint. ;)
--
Chuck received deportation orders a few days ago. Well..self-deportation orders a la the honorable Mitt Romney from __.
His father wasn't a postal worker.
(Btw, Mitt never pulled a John Miller stunt..merely impersonated a "severe conservative")
"S&P 500 is up 13.6 percent since Christmas, despits all of the shutdown ‘chaos’, btw. Tough to find a tragedy in there."
1. It's still a little down from this time last year. An entire year's gains wiped out.
2. The stock market has little direct benefit for the nearly half of Americans who are not invested in it.
"I want an investigation into how much tax payer money is paying for Pelosi and her family to travel the globe.
She was traveling with other members of Congress to visit the troops, for what that's worth.
"She should pay her own damn way. and if tax payers are paying for her and 97 others' travel and security? that is insane."
Do you feel Melania should pay for her vacation trips?
Your err..number 2 is simultaneously self-evident yet misleading.
Well done.
Trump's opponents are deluding themselves if they think he is the first--or even unique--in his actions on Mexico's northern border.
2. The stock market has little direct benefit for the nearly half of Americans who are not invested in it.
What about indirect benefit?
Interesting, that’s adults. What about children?
Weird. Because when Obama was President people like Cook couldn't stop talking about the stock market. I wonder what changed since then?
More than one-third of Americans working full time have no access through their employers to either pensions or retirement investment accounts like 401(k)s, according to the Pew Charitable Trusts.
Go to a bank. The employer is not a gatekeeper.
At this point in time, the stock market has little direct benefit to me, either. I’m in IRAs. Can’t touch it.
The thuggish brutish border enforcement disaster Robert Cook goes back almost 100 years because thing are exactly like they are now.
Hmm. maybe onto something hhttps://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/tammany-hall-scandal-crime-boss-frank-costello-judge-article-1.788925e's
Except let's compare Democrats to Democrats, as long as we can use ancient history
As far as the stock market.
The stock market is betting on the future. The future looks good because unemployment is low. The lowest ever...for everyone.Lowest for women, blacks, latinos... on and on. That is the direct benefit of a higher stock market. Shortage of qualified employees, corporations that are part of the stock market raise wages to attract workers, a direct affect because of the stock market.
If an employed population is good thing. But for Democrats that are goal driven to build a large dependent class of voters, not so good
Gk1@7:04 PM Remember when Muslims in New Jersey cheered the terrorist attacks of 9/11? It's because they were Democrat party members.
Changing his demands erratically is definitely part of Trump's negotiating repertoire - along with bullying, personal insults, lying, storming out of meetings, etc. A nice discussion of so-called hard-bargaining tactics and how to respond to them can be found at pp. 24-25 and 211- 223 in Robert H. Mnookin, Scott R. Peppet and Andew S. Tulumello, Beyond Winning: Negotiating to Create Value in Deals and Disputes (Harvard University Press 2000). During a long career practicing corporate law, my advice to clients when confronted with adversaries like Trump was to move on and find someone else to deal with - it's never worth it. There are a lot of fish in the sea. Now whether the Democrats can afford to follow that advice with respect to the president of the United States, we'll see. They may have to develop a better way to negotiate.
'Changing his demands erratically is definitely part of Trump's negotiating repertoire"
Specifically, what demands re border security has Trump "erratically changed" ?
And I can't help but notice that "its impossible to negotiate witb Trump" seems to be the latest JournoList narrative being floated all over media. Gee, its almost as if there a Soroz Fusion GPS Boiler Room of paid commenters cycling the same points you just posted.
My understanding is that Trump asked Pelosi something close to "if I ended the shutdown today would you being willing to work with me in the next 30 days on border security?"
Pelosi: No.
@Fen: I've been making the same comments about Trump's negotiating style - including the references to the Mnookin book - since the spring of 2016. I didn't think they were very controversial, either. Trump prides himself on being a hard-ball negotiator. Why are you so offended?
What they mean is, they are secretly hoping for a disaster, because they think it will be blamed on Trump. It's a a sick fantasy.
Do you feel Melania should pay for her vacation trips?
Yes, but I also felt like Michelle Obama should have done too, but I was overruled at the time, so I live with it. Is she supposed to fly JetBlue? Last time a Trump did that, they were accused of deliberately provoking the other passengers into harassing them by their very presence on a commercial flight.
How is the FLOTUS supposed to travel? Can she use her own jet? We have the first President that has real wealth. His own jet. I can't even imaginge the law suits that would be filed if FLOTUS took off on her own jet. Secret Service has a job to do, and using your own transportation is in violation of those rules.
As far as the money, the President could just pay for the trip. That would be a great precedent to establish.
"Why are you so offended?"
How is "Specifically, what demands re border security has Trump 'erratically changed'" evidence of offense taken?
When one side labelled themselves 'The Resistance', where they describe that resistance as opposing ANYTHING that the President wants, yeah, there is certainly a lack of 'good faith' but it isn't necessarily with the President.
Bear in mind: I am open to the idea that President Trump might be negotiating in bad faith.
I know that Schumer and Pelosi are negotiating in bad faith. They have sanctuary cities and haven't spoken against them. They have no laid out and drafted 'border security plan'. They haven't had any 'asks' from President Trump.
They might get an amnesty of sorts from him...but they need to give him the Wall and they refuse.
Negotiating means 'I can't have 100% of what I want'. Schumer and Pelosi think they can have that. They are probably incorrect.
Stop Federal Funding of California's welfare system. One missed check and suddenly some very angry single moms are going to be looking daggers at their representatives. And President Trump, but they already hate him and won't vote for him, so who cares.
They refuse to work with Federal Officers to get rid of illegals. They can go without Federal Funding.
Executive Order. We can do it that way. Any state which doesn't work to enforce Federal Immigration laws will be denied federal funding during the shut down. Blow up a few budgets out there. Make Dems face a few angry voters as they choose illegals over their own constituents. THAT will go over well...
How is this not a PR disaster for the Democrats?
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