November 5, 2018

The aptly named Joshua Quick. What weapon did he use to stop the yoga shooter? A vacuum cleaner.

"The gun stopped firing. I don't know if it jammed or what. So I used that opportunity to hit him over the head with [a vacuum cleaner]." The shooter used the jammed gun to hit Quick in the face, and Quick "jumped up as quickly as I could, ran back over and next thing you know, I'm grabbing a broom, anything I can. And I hit him again."

From "Hero who stopped incel yoga gunman by beating him with a vacuum cleaner: Student tells how he pounced on woman-hating shooter when his gun jammed after he killed two" (The Daily Mail).

What is a weapon? When is a person armed?

This is a question that's getting some attention after President Trump's remarks about the possibility of migrants in the caravan throwing rocks.

Here's "5 Questions About Rocks And Guns" (NPR).
Under the [Standard Rules for the Use of Force], as that code is known, the use of deadly force is justified "only when there is a reasonable belief that the subject of such force poses an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm to a person."...

Would throwing rocks be legally considered "an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm?"

That question remains to be settled in a case currently pending before the U.S. Supreme Court. It involves the 2010 fatal shooting by a U.S. Border Patrol agent of a 16-year-old Mexican boy who the agent says was throwing rocks from the other side of the border....

73 comments:

David Begley said...

Let’s ask Goliath if the rock thrown by *David* was a deadly weapon.

Laslo Spatula said...

There are some where, for them, everything is a weapon, and they are always armed, even when they hold nothing at all.

Liam Neeson.

Chuck Norris.

Keanu Reeves, sometimes.

And, now, Vacuum Cleaner Dude.

Suck it, Bad Guys.

I am Laslo.

gilbar said...

damn it! David beat me!
I was going to say, 'ask that slutty adultering bitch that Jesus helped out'

Bob Boyd said...

A rock was probably the original deadly weapon.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Lesson One:

Don't bring a rock to a gunfight.

JAORE said...

To the left the rockets and incendiary devices launched into Israel are not real weapons. Certainly not weapons enough to justify a military response... So rocks? To the left? Nah. If you agree just stand over there while I chuck a few at you.

My Dad gave me lots of advice growing up. I learned over the years it was worthwhile advice. Much of it seemed obvious. Perhaps Dad thought I had a special need for obvious advice.

Here's one too obvious for even Dad to think I needed: Don't throw rocks at someone with a gun.

The Crack Emcee said...
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The Crack Emcee said...
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The Crack Emcee said...

A lot of guys who hate women always seem to find the kind of women they hate at yoga studios.

That so few make the connection is revealing.

buwaya said...

Because Yoga is a cult?

Leaving that aside, I'm sure there is a charity women can contribute to, that will pay for commercial sex for afflicted men.

Perhaps a feminist charity to operate legal brothels.

Seeing Red said...

Weren’t we taught as children not to throw rocks because we can hurt someone?

Seeing Red said...

A rock was probably the original deadly weapon.I thought it was a bone.

But there was a monolith near by.

Hubby and I were talking gun control when 2001 was on 1 day. I told him just tell that person, watch the opening sequence of 2001. You’ll have your answer as to why we have the right to liberty.

Ray - SoCal said...

Would legalized prostitution have prevented this?

Countries with legalized prostitution don’t seem to have this incel problem.

The Crack Emcee said...

buwaya said...

"Because Yoga is a cult?"

A Hindu religious practice that gets people to putting their hands together in prayer, developing a new vocabulary ("Namaste" etc.) eating new foods, gaining a new outlook at odds with reality, performing a practice that takes up inordinate amounts off their time to learn how to do something with no intrinsic value, and that the president of India says he'll use to take over the world?

Could be a cult. I'll leave it up to you experts.

Chuck said...

The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is by a good guy with a vacuum cleaner.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Sticks and stones may break my bones. . .

Child's rhyme seems to say rocks are not deadly weapons.

But stoning is a historical method of Administration of death penalty.

So I guess there can be no clear-cut rule. Sometimes a rock can be deadly weapon and sometimes not.

narciso said...

I would say veganism is a cult, in so far that any practice is exalted over others.

The Crack Emcee said...

narciso said...

"I would say veganism is a cult, in so far that any practice is exalted over others."

Cults have requirements:

Cult: Homeopathy

Founder or Leader: Dr. Samuel Hahnemann

True Believers and Followers: Melanie Hahnemann, Past and Present Practitioners

Popular Slogan: Similia Similibus Curentur

Mystery - Irrational Belief: Dynamization - Potentization

Pecuniary Interest: Selling "Medicines", Tuition for a fee

Got it?

The Crack Emcee said...

Cult: Reiki ("Ray-kee")

Founder or leader: Mikao Usui

True believers and followers: past and present practitioners

Popular slogan: Usui-no-michi ("the Way of Usui")

Mystery - irrational belief: energy healing/faith healing

Pecuniary interest: selling "attunements"; training for a fee

narciso said...

Or more generally idol worship, that detracts from attention to the One who should be paid attention to.

Known Unknown said...

Maybe we need common-sense vacuum cleaner control.

Ralph L said...

Upright or canister?

Darrell said...

Althouse is thinking 1/2-inch rocks that she threw as a kid. I live by a railroad, Rocks can easily kill.

iowan2 said...

When a nut job decides to shoot up a place and kill people, the best outcome seems to be that people join together to attack them. 2cnd best is a single person takes it upon themselves.
The old advice to hide, seems not to be predicated on anything measurable. Nut jobs are not expecting any resistance. If its a retired navy seal, you will most likely die. But, that would have happened anyway. A trained killer will find you, and kill you. Risk benefit analysis says, take the risk.
Or be a Boy Scout, and always be prepared. Own, train with, and carry a gun.

virgil xenophon said...

@Cack/

The difference between a Cult and a Religion? Ans: 250 million adherents..

virgil xenophon said...

PS: SHOULD've said "The (only) difference..."

narayanan said...

maybe the caravan organizers should provide rock samples to the judge where challenge has been raised.

he can grade constitutionally valid size and permit distribution after supreme court approval

test for valid size - pelt them at the judges and justices.

Bob Boyd said...

Crack said...
"A Hindu religious practice that gets people to putting their hands together in prayer, developing a new vocabulary ("Namaste" etc.) eating new foods, gaining a new outlook at odds with reality, performing a practice that takes up inordinate amounts off their time to learn how to do something with no intrinsic value, and that the president of India says he'll use to take over the world?

Could be a cult. I'll leave it up to you experts."

Doesn't sound good, but you have to balance all that against the advent of Yoga pants.

narayanan said...

David Begley said... Let’s ask Goliath if the rock thrown by *David* was a deadly weapon

that should be the descendants - Phlistine or Palestinian

they were excited some years ago re 'discovery of Goliath bone'

Fernandinande said...

I hope he said "time to clean up the trash!" even though one generally does not clean up the trash by hitting it with a vacuum cleaner.

Curious George said...

"Would throwing rocks be legally considered "an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm?"

If anyone has a doubt, you bring yourself, I'll bring the rocks, and we'll find out together.

Wilbur said...
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Hagar said...

In Gaza, Hamas is still using the ancient stone slings, just like David used to kill Goliath.
So, throwing rocks and throwing rocks are not necessarily the same things.

narayanan said...

"The old advice to hide' - was it based on any (experiment) - is it Milgram or reverse Milgram? does it change anything eitherway?

or more in the way of behavior conditioning? a la Nazi

mockturtle said...

Let’s ask Goliath if the rock thrown by *David* was a deadly weapon.

Ah, Begley beat me to it.

Bob Boyd said...

Fernandistein said...
"I hope he said "time to clean up the trash!" even though one generally does not clean up the trash by hitting it with a vacuum cleaner."

He said, "Namaste, Motherfucker"

The Crack Emcee said...

Lee Nelson: Vote blue to get Trump's cult out

- Madison.com

stevew said...

Throwing stones is an annoyance. Throwing rocks, on the other hand, poses a serious threat of bodily injury or death. That's why he said rocks.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

“If anyone has a doubt, you bring yourself, I'll bring the rocks, and we'll find out together.”

Exactly. Hyper-patriotic Cracker that I am, I could never bring myself to blame the British private that first pulled the trigger at the Boston Massacre. Or the American private at Kent State. Hurl stones at a frightened 18 year-old holding a loaded firearm? Don’t be too shocked at the outcome.

mockturtle said...

A boy in my school was an expert with a sling and a stone. I watched in amazement one afternoon while he hit distant targets with amazing force and accuracy. Maybe not the ultimate weapon but deadly, for sure.

paminwi said...

Bill, Republic of Texas said "Sometimes a rock can be deadly weapon and sometimes not."
I think it is more important since we are talking about the act of throwing rocks, not just the result of throwing rocks that it should be stated "rocks can be a deadly weapon". And IMO that is what the SC should consider in their ruling of the case before them.

mockturtle said...

Or the American private at Kent State. Hurl stones at a frightened 18 year-old holding a loaded firearm?

The whole purpose of throwing rocks at the soldiers was to incite a violent response in order to create the media circus that followed. The radical Left hasn't changed.

Abdul Abulbul Amir said...

There is no doubt that a hand thrown rock is capable of killing a person.

Bob Boyd said...

@ mock

Yup. Now they're hoping they can get some Honduran kids shot at the border.

Lucien said...

Those who say, without evidence, that rocks cannot cause serious bodily harm, should be stoned. Because what’s the worst thing that could happen?

Birkel said...

Thank goodness Mr. Quick is getting the praise he deserves.
This man and the man who provided nursing services in the post below, are heroes.
We should focus more on the heroes and almost not at all on the villains.

AndyN said...

What is a weapon? When is a person armed?


At the risk of sounding trite, the weapon is between your ears. While your odds absolutely suck if you don't have a gun and the person trying to harm you does, when you decide you're not going to be a passive victim, you make do with whatever tool you can put your hands on.

Michael McNeil said...

Throughout antiquity and well into the middle ages “slingers” (soldiers who wielded of slings — and I don't mean the rubber-band driven “slingshots” that kids play with today) were valued parts of ancient armies — constituting whole corps therein. (The Balearic Islands of the western Mediterranean were a famous origin point for such slingers.) Often launching lead bullets rather than “stones,” good slingers could propel their bullets with devastating accuracy and force — while a whole corps of them was potent indeed.

James Pawlak said...

Gas or elastic powered fish spears; Ordinary harpoons; Maces or "War Hammers" of the many historical varieties; Home made (Liquid Petroleum Gas) flame throwers disguised as walking sticks OR other "innocent" objects; Sling shots" with steel ball bearings as projectiles; Chain saws; Lead shot filled garden hose sections; Chinese style repeating cross bows; Batons plugged into wall current OR (Disguised as walking sticks or other "innocent" objects and with today's high discharge-rate batteries and capacitors) with sharp prong electrodes to jab into thugs; Old style "zip guns" using sharpened flooring materials as projectiles; Packets of red pepper dust to be followed with boots and clubs (The Maori and Iroquois have some nice designs); "Nail Guns"; And, any number of other improvised weapons.

William said...

I don't know if I would have the courage to do it, but, manifestly, the best strategy in such a situation is to rush the shooter. I think a lot of people now have that fact fixed in the back of their minds and that there will be more heroes like this. I certainly hope so.

Achilles said...

If you start throwing things at people with guns you should really plan on getting shot at some point.

Bruce Hayden said...

"Under the [Standard Rules for the Use of Force], as that code is known, the use of deadly force is justified "only when there is a reasonable belief that the subject of such force poses an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm to a person."..."

This is, of course, the standard definition of self defense that civilians operate under in their daily life. So, it makes logical sense that this would be the default for the military when they are not waging war ot in harm's way. Obviously this has to change when the military goes to war. Imagine Patton trying to get across Europe under these rules, that would mean that his troops couldn't shoot the Germans unless they picked up their guns and pointed them at you. More importantly, maybe, it would probably eliminate the use of artillery and air strikes. Probably machine guns too.

In real life, under state self defense laws, rocks very well can be considered lethal weapons, and indeed, mere fists can be too. The key here is that "serious bodily harm" and the like typically includes broken bones, and really much of what could land you in a hospital after a physical alteration. This means that if you try to knock my partner down to steal her purse, I can probably legally shoot you, not because you are trying to steal personal property, but because that shove is likely to cause her to end up in surgery with a back surgeon. On the opposite end of the spectrum, that would not be the case with one former collegiate O line football player I know decently well, even as he nears 30. Getting back to rocks - the old adage that sticks and stones can break your bones, etc, should answer the question - since broken bones are typically legally considered "serious bodily harm".

reader said...

So have the justices read The Lottery?

Greg P said...

What is a weapon? When is a person armed?


A weapon is anything at hand.

When are you armed? Whenever you are willing to attack.

"There are no dangerous weapons, there are only dangerous people." It's a cliche, because it's true

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Coyotes now pay groups of Mexican youths to pelt our border agents with rocks as a distraction while they cross at a nearby location. US agents generally avoid shooting at antagonists on the other side of the border. This technique has been very effective but did kill a border Agent last week. We may have to adjust tactics for this threat. That the caravan is already armed and causing problems presents other challenges.

n.n said...

The Chinese provided government-sponsored sexual outlets to "incels" by virtue of the one-child policy. It may have diffused the sexual tension between Venus and Mars, and exporting their population around the world served to both compensate for the sex misalignment and to secure claims for natural resources.

n.n said...

The difference between a Cult and a Religion?

Religion (i.e. moral philosophy), logical domains, and tradition are separable. A stable belief system adopts a religion based on principles that are externally, internally, and mutually consistent. A stable belief system observes a separation of logical domains, and functions in the near-frame. A stable belief system retains practices ("traditions") that reconcile with their religion and logical order.

Wince said...

Would throwing rocks be legally considered "an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm?

Honestly, I still can't understand how that whole "rock, paper, scissors" thing works.

Mark O said...

It seems the issue has been the subject of prior precedent:

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

John 8

etienne said...
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etienne said...
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rhhardin said...

Nature abhors a vacuum cleaner.

mockturtle said...

William asserts: I don't know if I would have the courage to do it, but, manifestly, the best strategy in such a situation is to rush the shooter.

If the shooter has a long gun this would be the best ploy. A handgun, maybe not.

Rosalyn C. said...

I think Crack (not so secretly) wants to lead a cult but probably lacks the charisma, the je ne sais quoi. That's my theory on why he seems so angry about "new age" stuff.

Yoga has five forms, most people identify the physical postures called Hatha Yoga as "yoga." The health benefits of hatha yoga have been proven in terms of increased physical flexibility and strength.

The only reason any of these practices or political philosophies or parties become cults is that some people are attracted to a particular personality and give up their personal will and judgement for the benefit of the the cult leader and the group. They crave the security and safety of the group. The dangerous cults don't let you leave.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

A weapon is anything a person uses to harm another person, or to threaten harm. A pillow can soothe, or smother.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones. . .

Child's rhyme seems to say rocks are not deadly weapons."

It looks like you completely misunderstood what you just wrote.

Howard said...

I have to give Achilles his due props. He accurately predicted that people who were mentally ill like himself were going to start busting nuts and killing libruls. I poo-pooed his rantings believing that Achilles acolytes were too cowardly to conduct wet work. Boy oh boy was I wrong. Who knew the depth of desperation you incels suffer from because you make women throw up in their mouth by the thought of you.

Congratulations Achilles, you and your murderous cucks have showed the world exactly what you are maid of.

Yancey Ward said...

When I was a kid, I could throw even a fairly small rock with more than enough velocity to kill you if I struck you in the head with it from even 60 feet away. I could do it today, too. This is why you don't throw rocks at people if you actually care about their safety.

Achilles said...

William said...
I don't know if I would have the courage to do it, but, manifestly, the best strategy in such a situation is to rush the shooter. I think a lot of people now have that fact fixed in the back of their minds and that there will be more heroes like this. I certainly hope so.

The best strategy is to close distance under as much cover as possible.

Sometimes no cover is possible.

Most people don't shoot enough to know how hard it is to hit a moving target which makes charging a reasonable ploy.

I this situation the shooter's gun jammed. That made the vacuum cleaner gambit possible.

It would have been better if one of the practitioners was armed.

Gospace said...

The iron ball in shot put can kill. An errant throw killed a runner during a track meet in my county in the 1970s. The oh so innocent baseball kills accidentally on a fairly regular basis, and causes severe injuries all the time. A fencing foil with a blunt tip can cause severe lacerations if it breaks during a thrust and the fencer can't react fast enough to stop the thrust. Mid 70s when that happened.

Karate was developed because peasants we're denied ownership of swords. Same with quarterstaff. A properly wielded wooden stick can be quite deadly. And then there's this: https://tribunist.com/news/report-army-ranger-gets-confirmed-kill-with-mre-spoon/

mockturtle said...

Karate was developed because peasants we're denied ownership of swords.

During Hideyoshi's reign. He had teams go out and confiscate all weapons from peasants. He may have 'unified' Japan but he was a tyrant of the worst sort.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Ok, so that settles it. Guns are no longer necessary. Arm yourselves with brooms instead.

Tina Trent said...

Well thankfully it wasn't a hate crime. He just despised women and set out to murder them randomly. Had he picked some other group, that would be really bad.

Good thing the ADL nipped this thing in the bud with the help of Clinton, Kagan and Holder back in 1997, or else these dead ladies might get uppity and assume their murders are as legally and morally heinous as tnose in Pittsburgh and Charlotte.

And then where would we be as a nation? Believing in equality before the law!?? Thank God we dodged that bullet.

lge said...

A rolling pin is more traditional, but OK.