"The woman who is hoping to become the most progressive Democratic nominee in generations is not merely letting herself get jerked around by a Trumpian taunt. She is also reinforcing one of the most insidious ways in which Americans talk about race: as though it were a measurable biological category, one that, in some cases, can be determined by a single drop of blood. Genetic-test evidence is circular: if everyone who claims to be X has a particular genetic marker, then everyone with the marker is likely to be X. This would be flawed reasoning in any area, but what makes it bad science is that it reinforces the belief in the existence of X—in this case, race as a biological category... Warren... has allowed herself to be dragged into a conversation based on an outdated, harmful concept of racial blood—one that promotes the pernicious idea of biological differences among people—and she has pulled her supporters right along with her."
From "Elizabeth Warren Falls for Trump’s Trap—and Promotes Insidious Ideas About Race and DNA" by Masha Gessen (The New Yorker).
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197 comments:
When do democrats started actually killing each other?
I mean, besides every day in Baltimore and Chicago?
I ask myself, if DJT can play Warren like this, how would she do with Putin? She is definitely not presidential material.
Um Warren was not dragged into the conversation. She started the conversation afterall we all know how much liberals love conversating [yes, I actually heard someone use that word once].
She didn't allow herself to be dragged into it. She profited from it. Trump merely pointed it out, did so cleverly, and wasn't afraid to do so. At the end of the day, she's the one that made the initial claim of Native American ancestry in order to take an advantage. Her getting called on it doesn't make others racist.
What could be more progressive than embracing the "one drop rule" from the Jim Crow era?
Her ways are not the ways of the white man.
They are seeing this backwards.
Elizabeth Warren made a false claim, and benefitted from it. The press should have been calling her out, or doing investigation. People who support Affirmative Action should have been calling her out. If we are going to rely on self-reporting for such important benefits, we have to hold the claimants to high standards. Nobody in those groups wanted to do that, because they were afraid it would hurt someone they don't want to hurt (Warren). This isn't something *Trump* did.
She fell into his trap.
He acts like a normal guy and she acts like a social justice warrior cunt.
Further, if Harvard didn't hire based on race, then Warren wouldn't have had the opportunity to make the claim. This all happened long before Trump became President.
Perhaps Harvard should not discriminate in any way based on race. Then we wouldn't have to discuss exactly what constitutes a race or whether and how a person belongs to that race.
Yes, but just remember, Trump is the stupid one. All the credentialed idiots tell me so.
https://spectator.org/everyone-is-smart-except-trump/
At least she can lead the new "# Sioux Too" movement.
The cultural appropriation is strong in this one.
Thanks for blogging that one, Althouse. Your touch on this whole Warren/Native American kerfuffle has been impeccable.
Of course I don't care for Trump, or Warren.
My tastes run to Chief Justice Roberts. Who wrote, "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race." Parents Involved in Community Schools v. Seattle School District No. 1, 551 U.S. 701 (2007)
"He acts like a normal guy and she acts like a social justice warrior cunt."
Note: the politically incorrect term for "social justice warrior" is now "NPC."
"Cunt" is still "cunt."
Warren has only herself to blame for being 'pulled into this.'
Nobody else.
From the article: "Warren has been criticized for failing to meet with Native American leaders, and she has garnered no praise from them for her legislative work . . . ."
Garnered!
Warren didn't reinforce insidious concepts of race, she merely exposed them for what they are.
Warren... has allowed herself to be dragged into a conversation based on an outdated, harmful concept of racial blood—one that promotes the pernicious idea of biological differences among people—and she has pulled her supporters right along with her."
This is absurd!
There are obvious biological differences between races. There are also cultural differences. That is not debatable. Was is debatable (and not a politically correct avenue of inquiry) is the degree to which measurable differences among groups are create by biology, culture and the interaction between the two.
AA cannot address biological differences. It was meant to address cultural differences. What Warren has done is turn AA on its head by asserting that her minuscule biological ancestry (not a history of discrimination) provides AA benefits. She has damaged the concept of AA much more than she has damaged her political career.
She is also reinforcing one of the most insidious ways in which Americans talk about race: as though it were a measurable biological category, one that, in some cases, can be determined by a single drop of blood.
Except, it is, and it can.
"Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four self-reported race/ethnicity categories. Of 3,636 subjects of varying race/ethnicity, only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity. "
-Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies
Warren's ego did her in. Ted Kennedy, reprehensible as he was, endured a lot of jokes, comments, even people writing books on Chappaquidick. He never acknowledged any of it and by doing that kept it in a gray area for a lot of people; gray enough that he had a lifetime career in the Senate.
Warren decided she was going to shut Trump up with a DNA test and it totally backfired on her. A backfire that has nothing to do with how much Native American DNA she has, but more to do with the fact that she's now taken it out of that gray area and made it real, and usable against her come 2020.
Hold on Hold on...
I'm confused. Is this article making an argument that X doesn't define X? As in identity is separate from genetic reality? Like being transgender? That one drop has nothing to do with it, or does?
Are they saying that she made a mistake when she said she was X and that she should have described herself as some kind of trans-X? That her thinking was archaic to bring genetics into this?
Is this the New Yorkers way of telling her she should've "stayed on message"? Then her being a Cherokee would've been alright? That saying you're Cherokee is now some kind of policy platform.
This is the clearest example I've seen yet of how the Dems are literally devolving into a party where policy, thought, and identity is your race.
Literally, as long as you are something other than white, and especially male, you are a-ok as long as you have the right platform. Platform uber alles.
Once you "get off message" you instantly become a white person again, or an uncle-tom.
Like being trans-dem or trans-repub or trans-Cherokee.
Bellum Omnium Contra Omnes War of all against all. Dems are officially having an identity crisis.
Populations separated from each other after many generations will evolve differently. That's genetic.
You may have difficulty identifying "markers" but they're there.
Since her DNA test results came out, I've learned so much more about the affirmative action fraud she perpetrated.
On the racial spoils system -- modern era -- the New Yorker speaketh with forked tongue.
I love her new nickname (seen in a prior thread): "Pocahonky."
Forget it, Jake. Its the New Yorker.
"(Ted Kennedy) never acknowledged any of it and by doing that kept it in a gray area for a lot of people; gray enough that he had a lifetime career in the Senate."
Gray area was not the reason, imo. "Kennedy" was the reason.
The one-drop rule was only ever meant to apply to black African blood.
I figured it out.
What the NYer is saying is that race shouldn't matter except when it does. Eureka!!! And that only they get to define when that is. Eureka again!!!
Elizabeth's DNA test mattered when Dems needed it to matter. But now that's all anybody can talk about, it's archaic and foolish, like thinking about "one drop" is foolish...and they referenced Jim Crow too....god bless them.
Damn it Lizzie! Stop the conversation! We want to get off!
Warren believes "bad science".
Bad science is false knowledge.
False knowledge causes false consciousness.
Elizabeth Warren has false consciousness, which Lenin and Stalin taught was harmful to the general welfare of society.
She must be a very bad person.
SAD!
Pocahonky didn’t “allow” anything. She played the odds, got hired on lore, built her career on being a minority and it came back to bite her later.
This isn’t like Kavanaugh.
The leftists at the New Yorker are just catching on to how a rich White woman using to affirmative action to get spoils is going to look to Black and Hispanic people.
This "little kerfluffle" could not be more central to intra-democrat party politics.
Trump deserves credit for stripping the masks off the enemies of the republic.
"not merely letting herself get jerked around"
I guess the lesson is don't get pulled in by someone who really has fun jerking people around.
The preference cascade among black voters was already rolling.
Now we got a rich white woman using AA to take a spot that was meant for one of them.
Warren is a favorite with the prog left.
The prog left is Overwhelmingly white and affluent. Antifa is a bunch of little rich white kids who never had a job. Look at every picture.
This is going to get nasty quick.
"Warren, meanwhile, has allowed herself to be dragged into a conversation based on an outdated, harmful concept of racial blood—one that promotes the pernicious idea of biological differences among people..."
Interesting. Gessen apparently believes that there are no biological differences between people. What do you want to bet he spent four years in a university?
Somebody has to compile a list of all the things that President Trump has forced the Democrats to go to the mat do defend. Illegal aliens, pornography stars, Mexican murderous thugs, disrespecting the United States Flag, guilty until proven innocent, and on and on. Every time they take the bait, and look stupid doing it. But the list is extensive.
SO, if Gessen does not believe that blood tests can determine racial background, is he saying that Warren is an Indian? If not, how does he know? Because some Indians say she isn't? How do they know> And how do we know they are Indians?
Antifa is a bunch of little rich white kids who never had a job.
"Antifa" seems to be almost a sinister form of cosplay. These kids have deluded themselves into thinking that it's 1932 in Germany somehow. And that they're the tip of the spear against evil. And they LIKE thinking themselves as that, so it will be very difficult to disabuse them of this notion.
Warren lives in a bubble. Trump doesn’t.
I don’t think Trump will choose Warren as his opponent in 2020. But he will use her against the other potential nominees. Turn liberal white women against Kamala and Cory.
They don’t know the game he is playing. Trump played Warren. Obama wasn’t stupid enough to release his college transcripts.
Bill Clinton would fall for this shit.
But the class of 2020 are Trump’s stooges.
I see no evidence that President Trump is a Super Human Genius, but almost every time the opposition attacks him they are the ones that wind up with egg on their faces. Maybe he is a SHG, but I'm going to go with the Dems are so far removed from reality that anyone with the guts to stand up to them could do the same thing.
A common sense revolution led by a madman.
If race isn't about biology, then it must be about culture. And if race is culturally determined, it isn't an immutable human characteristic. And if is isn't an immutable human characteristic, why is it wrong to discriminate based on it?
Microhontas has highlighted the folly of identity politics. Even if you believe in affirmative action, she's clearly not the kind of person it is meant to help.
Warren should just say she self-identifies as a Cherokee. That tribe has no more say over Warren’s Identity than men do over women who self identify as men.
Of course, the Progressive Fault Line is that Race/Ethnicity is determined by them but individuals get to determine their Sex or Gender.
Trump will exploit this fault line.
She is also reinforcing one of the most insidious ways in which Americans talk about race: as though it were a measurable biological category, one that, in some cases, can be determined by a single drop of blood.
Race has always been insidious. Our government should stop dividing people into "races" on the census. Stop this bullshit at the source. And watch how the left howls when we do it!
And if the government's not going to do it, citizens ought to sue and attack the racism in the census.
Much of the ugly racism in the original Constitution revolved around the census. That's when black people were counted as 60% of a person. Anybody who thinks racial division by our government is appropriate should reflect on that.
There's one race as far as our Constitution is concerned--the human race. And it's the denial of this simple fact that led to our Civil War. And the Republicans, as usual, should lead this fight. Let the Democrats explain and defend their race questions and racial divisions. Let the Democrats play these DNA games. We should shame the socialists on this question early and often. The left accuses Republicans of secret racism and hidden racism. They say, for instance, that requiring a voter ID is racist. Meanwhile, flat up racism by our government is ignored!
We should fight racism by fighting racial division. And the best way to do that is to remove all those damn racial questions on the census. You hear that, you one drop idiots?
This would be flawed reasoning in any area, but what makes it bad science is that it reinforces the belief in the existence of X—in this case, race as a biological category... Warren...
For that matter, Elizabeth Warren didn't do much to promote race as a cultural category when, as a purported Cherokee, she contributed recipes to the Pow Wow Chow cookookbok that came from a French chef. Chef cooks one of Elizabeth Warren’s Pow Wow Chow fake-Cherokee recipes.
The two recipes, “Cold Omelets with Crab Meat” and “Crab with Tomato Mayonnaise Dressing,” appear in an article titled “Cold Omelets with Crab Meat,” written by Pierre Franey of the New York Times News Service that was published in the August 22, 1979 edition of the Virgin Islands Daily News, a copy of which can be seen here.
Ms. Warren’s 1984 recipe for Crab with Tomato Mayonnaise Dressing is a word-for-word copy of Mr. Franey’s 1979 recipe.
Mrs. Warren’s 1984 recipe for Cold Omelets with Crab Meat contains all four of the ingredients listed in Mr. Franey’s 1979 recipe in the exact same portion but lists five additional ingredients. More significantly, her instructions are virtually a word for word copy of Mr. Franey’s instructions from this 1979 article. Both instructions specify the use of a “seven inch Teflon pan.” …
Cherokee Nation recipes courtesy of Pierre Franey, that noted French Cherokee.
Ah Masha--the 'one drop rule" was an iron law of the Democrats back in the day--although it was applied most often in the case of those of the African persuasion.
But a couple of points come to mind in the case of Senator Warren.
First, she has the political skills of a cigar store Indian--and that wooden Indian has more Cherokee blood than she does.
Second, she believes Trump is an idiot. But she forgot that the best thing to do when arguing with an idiot is to simply be silent. But see my first point--no real political skills.
Y'all ever heard that Shakespearian expression, "Methinks the Lady doth protest too much."? Essentially yapping away, circumnavigating the issue, baffling folks with bullshit.
Well, here's a series of 20 hysterical tweets by Senator Paleface "fighting back" against Trump.
My personal favorite:
Bottom line: My heritage played no role in my hiring – ever. The @BostonGlobe reviewed all the evidence. Their verdict? "At every step of her remarkable rise in the legal profession, the people responsible for hiring her saw her as a white woman."
Well, you are a white woman. No surprise there, Pocahonky!
Microhontas: Father, why are you called "Tweets with Lighting"?
Tweets with Lighting: Because as Cherokee we name our children after the things we see them doing best.
Microhontas: And what what do I do best?
Tweets with Lighting: Run with Fractions.
SO, if Gessen does not believe that blood tests can determine racial background, is he saying that Warren is an Indian? If not, how does he know? Because some Indians say she isn't? How do they know> And how do we know they are Indians?
The Indian tribes are based on citizenship, not race. Warren is not a citizen of any Indian tribe, so it's racist of her to pretend to belong to one.
Richard Johnson said "Cherokee Nation recipes courtesy of Pierre Franey, that noted French Cherokee."
HOLY cow is that real!?! My sides are in orbit.
I'm officially changing her from "Run with Fractions" to "chefagawea"
@RJ,
Cherokee Nation recipes courtesy of Pierre Franey, that noted French Cherokee.
Careful there, RJ -- I'm Cherokee (at least 1/8th on my father's side**) & 1/2 French (1/4 Provencal & 1/4 Corsican) on my mother's side.
I'm not Cajun in the least, but I can imagine there are Cherokee/Cajun mixes up Louisiana way.
** There's no doubt that my paternal grandmother was half Cherokee. The only question is did my paternal grandfather have Cherokee blood also, and there seems to be family disagreements over that. Needless to say, dirt poor northern Alabamians were not known for maintaining meticulous genealogical records.
Bottom line: My heritage played no role in my hiring – ever. The @BostonGlobe reviewed all the evidence. Their verdict? "At every step of her remarkable rise in the legal profession, the people responsible for hiring her saw her as a white woman."
Then why did she bring her heritage up?
Yes you idiot, when they look at you, they see a white woman. What did you expect?
Saint Croix said...
Much of the ugly racism in the original Constitution revolved around the census. That's when black people were counted as 60% of a person. Anybody who thinks racial division by our government is appropriate should reflect on that.
I've often wondered at what level of stupidity and moral wretchedness is required, for someone to be upset that the US Constitution decreased the power of slave owners, by making it roe slave only counted as 3/5 of a person, when handing out political power based on population.
What ARE you so mad that the Constitution took power away from slave holding States, and gave it to non-slave holding ones?
I really am curious
"'Antifa' seems to be almost a sinister form of cosplay"
It's rooted in Soviet disinformation. The fascists were against the communists, so anyone against the communists was a fascist. This applied even if the person was against both the communists and the fascists. Since fascists are defined as anti-communists, communist becomes a synonym for anti-fascist, shortened to antifa because it isn't easy to find actual fascists walking around.
Ah ain't in noways tarred of winnin'.
"Warren... has allowed herself to be dragged into a conversation based on an outdated, harmful concept of racial blood—one that promotes the pernicious idea of biological differences among people."
In what sense are "biological differences among people" a pernicious idea? I mean, some "biological differences" are just cold, hard facts. What to do with or about those facts, if anything, is another matter, but to refer to the differences themselves as "pernicious" is crazy--and in light of rapidly progressing science, outdated.
Of course, while supposedly downplaying biological differences, the left also wants to classify people by race and ethnicity. If it is not determined by "racial blood," dear progs, how are we to tell who is black and who is not? Do we just socially construct it -- and if so, leave everyone's racial identity up to other people? Or do we make it something entirely subjective -- the Warren/Dolezal option, you are who you say you are? Cuz besides biology, society and subjectivity are the only alternatives. But social construction and mere subjectivity will destroy the prog racial spoils system pretty quickly. So they need biology.
Gessen is just pissed that biology exposed Warren as a lying paleface bitch.
Stop the color judgments. Diversity has progressive returns with untold collateral damage.
Farmer, your racial science at 3:50 is a joke.
Subjects identified themselves as belonging to one of four major racial/ethnic groups (white, African American, East Asian, and Hispanic)
Is an Iranian white? East Asian? Hispanic? African-American?
Is a Cherokee white? East Asian? Hispanic? African-American?
DNA tells us something (of course!). But race is embarrassing. And the "scientists" trying to prop up this embarrassment should be mocked, not cited.
"I've often wondered at what level of stupidity and moral wretchedness is required, for someone to be upset that the US Constitution decreased the power of slave owners, by making it roe slave only counted as 3/5 of a person, when handing out political power based on population.
"What ARE you so mad that the Constitution took power away from slave holding States, and gave it to non-slave holding ones?"
This gave power TO the slave-holders and to the slave holding states. The slaves were not autonomous citizens and could not vote, yet by counting 3/5ths of them as part of the population of the slave-holding states, those states had greater representation and power in Congress than they would have had otherwise.
I've used the term "white" to describe myself, but I always recognize this is a colloquialism. It's sloppy fucking science.
See also the attempts to substitute geography for human DNA.
one that promotes the pernicious idea of biological differences among people
What's pernicious about that idea? Every doctor in he world will tell you that it is true.
Calling them Antifa, flatters their ego, occupy isn't adequate shorthand either, occupy what but 2012 was more an occupy election, over say the tea party which were more dominant in 2010,
Warren got suckered into to proving she doesn't have the heritage she claimed (paternal grandparents disapproval of her mother as an Amerindian), and a heritage she apparently used to her advantage, namely graduates of second-tier law schools do not become law professors at Harvard--except, apparently as a woman of color, which she touted.
This gave power TO the slave-holders and to the slave holding states. The slaves were not autonomous citizens and could not vote, yet by counting 3/5ths of them as part of the population of the slave-holding states, those states had greater representation and power in Congress than they would have had otherwise.
No that wasn't the choice. The slave states insisted that slaves count as a whole person, and the northern states insisted that they not count at all. The compromise that allowed the Constitution to be ratified is that they would count as 3/5ths of a person. If the north had continued to insist they not count at all, the Constitution would have never been ratified and the union never formed.
I would ask Warren's supporters this- given her lily white parents and Warren's own childhoold background, would you be ok with Warren calling herself African-American along her career path the way she did for for "Native American", if her great grandfather were an African-American?
In other words, Warren looks as white as Ivory Snow, was raised a good little white, middle-class girl by white as Ivory Snow parents and grandparents in white middle class neighborhoods. All the cultural markings indicate that Warren is more white than I am, and I am lily white. I would think that the defense of Affirmative Action has to start with the understanding that it is designed to help those who who suffered actual discrimination from their actual cultural backgrounds and the discrimination they suffered from their obvious ethnic lineage. Giving interlopers like Warren a pass for what is basically an untruth about her background does undermine support for Affirmative Action in a way that its detractors are just going to use to its full extent. I suspect that is Gessen's real complaint about what Warren has done here, but he can't come out and write that.
Like I wrote yesterday, the very smartest political and ethical move Warren could have made on getting this DNA result back would have been to issue a statement that she had been led to believe something about her ancestors- in particular, her mother- that the results show was likely apocryphal, and that she had made a mistake in the past in believing it. That would have worked for her supporters and those who might be persuaded to supporter her- the Independents and swing voters.
Very happy Trump killed this candidate in utero
The real dynamic at work here is being missed. If you look around, pretty much all the explicitly partisan media on the left were ready to back up Warren's stunt and try to turn it into a story about Trump not living up to his "bet." The backlash came NOT from Republicans or conservatives but from the implicitly partisan mainstream media which couldn't keep a straight face over Warren's DNA results.
Mike
I don't why the libs are unhappy. We're having a national conversation about race, isn't that what they're always asking for?
The slave states insisted that slaves count as a whole person, and the northern states insisted that they not count at all. The compromise that allowed the Constitution to be ratified is that they would count as 3/5ths of a person.
The Constitution is written for two parties: the People and our Posterity. The Constitution does not have diversity provisions. The original compromise was a firewall to mitigate the influence and interests of slave holders and non-stake holders, "the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons." And, with the advent of the Twilight Amendment, the whole exclusion of unPersons and unPosterity.
Gahrie, I'm with Cookie on this one. He can defend himself, of course, but...
You want one. The other side says you get zero. Getting 3/5ths is better than getting zero.
It was a compromise, of course, and it served the purpose you described. It could have very easily been a 1/2 compromise. In that sense the slave states got more than they gave up.
Blogger narciso said...
Calling them Antifa, flatters their ego, occupy isn't adequate shorthand either, occupy what but 2012 was more an occupy election, over say the tea party which were more dominant in 2010,
I've wondered about this bunch, too. They seem to appear in certain cities and I expect they were behind the Seattle riots when the WTO came to town. I would like to see some prosecuted for wearing masks and rioting but they seem careful to stay in deep blue cities.
This gave power TO the slave-holders and to the slave holding states.
Cookie prefers there was no United States. This was 200 years ago and the conditions was for ratification of the Constitution.
I guess you would have preferred the Czar so you would be in time for the Bolsheviks.
If there is no biological difference, how do we study, diagnose and treat tay-sachs or sickle cell?
Without "and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons," America would have suffered a still-birth with enormous loss of blood and treasure. It still suffered the latter to restore human and civil rights and the reparations of civil war.
The question is not if color differences matter, but when do they matter. When do genotypes matter? When do phenotypes matter? When does the male and female sex matter? When does the masculine and feminine gender matter?
Cookie doesn't understand that 2/5 of a loaf is better than none. He gots the dumb!
Robert Cook said...
"I've often wondered at what level of stupidity and moral wretchedness is required, for someone to be upset that the US Constitution decreased the power of slave owners, by making it roe slave only counted as 3/5 of a person, when handing out political power based on population.
"What ARE you so mad that the Constitution took power away from slave holding States, and gave it to non-slave holding ones?"
This gave power TO the slave-holders and to the slave holding states.
Buzz
The people bitching about the 3/5 compromise aren't complaining that they weren't counted as 0%, they're complaining that they weren't counted as 100%
Which would have given more power to the slave States.
As much as I dislike the politics of Warren, logic and reason compel me to take her side.
Any atheist can call himself a Christian, and he needs nobody's permission, not even that of the lifelong Jew, Jesus.
Any Jew can call himself an atheist, as Einstein famously did.
Anybody can call himself a Catholic without permission of the Pope.
Anyone can call himself a Native American, especially if actually born here, whether of Anglo parents or not, without permission of any "tribal leaders."
If you don't accept authority of "political correctness," you're free to be politically incorrect and even appropriate any culture you want to.
This tortured logic calls to mind brave, brave Rachel Dolezal, who identified as black and rejected "the pernicious idea of biological difference among people." It calls to mind Christine Blasey Ford, who one senator argued was entitled to "her truth."
So Elizabeth Warren is a Cherokee because she believes she is. Whatever you feel you are, that is what you are. And anybody who challenges you on YOUR feelings is a big meanie. As Rene Des Cartes said, "I feel therefore I am."
Welcome to the post-truth age.
The New Yorker DNA is strong in this one. Trump didn't walk anything back, he just pointed to his carefully framed comment. Nor is there really much difference between a clustering of genes types associated with regions and classical ideas of race, indeed, of species and all the other groupings in cladistic analysis. What one does with those ideas is what matters, and the Democrats want to use them to divide the polity into self interested groups based on ethnicity.
Surprisingly, a biological male recently won a woman's world cycling championship. "Woman" with dick wins world woman's cycling championship? Prompted Prager to ask "why, then, do we have women's sports at all?" A world record! Little wonder why these little democrats on anti-depressants are gunning down their classmates!
Out of all the compromises that have been made in US History over slavery, the 3/5ths is the least malignant.
When a progressive loses the New Yorker...
Blogger Annie C said...
If there is no biological difference, how do we study, diagnose and treat tay-sachs or sickle cell?
Exactly. We had a small discussion at NeoNeocon about it.
"We do not want to divide America on account of race!" says the university administrator, dividing college admissions into the black, white, and Asian piles.
Nonsense. "Woman" with dick" is incapable of cycles.
The beauty of the idea of America is that it didn't matter who your ancestors were. In America, you had no past.
I just met a woman who came to the United States from the Czech Republic (neé Czechoslovakia) after the Berlin Wall fell, circa 1993. In her native land, the communists confiscated her family's farm. She had $1,000 and spoke no English upon arrival. Twenty-five years later she has a family with 3 children, a stay-at-home husband and is about to become a VP of a large pharmaceutical/healthcare company.
Obviously, she has white privilege.
Actually, it didn't start with Elizabeth Warren.
Other liberals began this New Racialism when they started advocating such policies as affirmative-action benefits for mixed-race people.
If someone who's "partly" nonwhite can qualify for affirmative-action benefits, that immediately raises the question of just how big a concentration of nonwhite ancestry must you have in order to qualify? 1/8? 1/32? 1/128? 1/1024? Just one drop of nonwhite blood?
Affirmative action and other racial preferences were originally intended to compensate for the discrimination that nonwhites had suffered. How much discrimination has a white person suffered just because he or she is 1/512 nonwhite?
And the entire rationale for "diversity" suffers a fatal blow if the "diversity" requirement can be satisfied by, for example, three *white people*, who are 1/512 Hispanic, 1/256 black, and 1/1024 AmerIndian respectively.
Czech Republic (neé Czechoslovakia)
Czechia.
If race is just a social construct, as Masha Gessen suggests, then what is the basis for any affirmative action? If there is any advantage to claiming a particular racial category in seeking admission to a university, to obtaining a governmental contract or housing benefit, why shouldn't any otherwise apparently white person claim that status?
UT, Penn and Harvard Law schools were happy to have Warren check the Native American box, since it made them look good, and Warren benefitted too. The entire race (and presumably in the future gender) thing is self-policing, which means that cynical white lefties like Warren will game the system at the expense of honest whites as well as genuine minorities .
Again, I will say that there are smart people paid to be strategists for their Chinese government bosses who are at an absolute freaking dead loss to try to weave a cogent narrative as to what exactly the Yankee political classes are up to. On the face of it, no one would do what is being done. So much dissonance.
Boss: Do you have the report ready to go?
Worker 219: um...
Boss: Why not? What is wrong with you!
219: I struggled with the implicit sensibility that Comrade Warren is suggesting -
Boss: What sensibility? What does it mean? Why did she do it?
219: er...
Boss: We pay you to make sense of American politics!! You don't write a thing!! Explain yourself!!!
219: Uh..... would you believe I am 1/512th white?
@Saint Croix:
Farmer, your racial science at 3:50 is a joke.
Well, first of all, it is not my science. It was published in the American Journal of Human Genetics and is published by the American Society of Human Genetics. From the introduction of the article, which I don't think you read despite dismissing it as "a joke."
"From an evolutionary point of view, population stratification (genetically distinct subgrouping) and admixture (intermating between genetically distinct groups) are created by human mating patterns. Geographical, social, and cultural barriers have given rise to reproductively isolated human populations, within which random drift has produced genetic differentiation. Numerous recent studies using a variety of genetic markers have shown that, for example, individuals sampled worldwide fall into clusters that roughly correspond to continental lines, as well as to the commonly used self-identifying racial groups: Africans, European/West Asians, East Asians, Pacific Islanders, and Native Americans (Bowcock et al. 1994; Calafell et al. 1998; Rosenberg et al. 2002)."
There is also this from Jerry Coyne's blog:
"What are races?
In my own field of evolutionary biology, races of animals (also called “subspecies” or “ecotypes”) are morphologically distinguishable populations that live in allopatry (i.e. are geographically separated). There is no firm criterion on how much morphological difference it takes to delimit a race. Races of mice, for example, are described solely on the basis of difference in coat color, which could involve only one or two genes.
Under that criterion, are there human races?
Yes. As we all know, there are morphologically different groups of people who live in different areas, though those differences are blurring due to recent innovations in transportation that have led to more admixture between human groups.
How many human races are there?
That’s pretty much unanswerable, because human variation is nested in groups, for their ancestry, which is based on evolutionary differences, is nested in groups. So, for example, one could delimit “Caucasians” as a race, but within that group there are genetically different and morphologically different subgroups, including Finns, southern Europeans, Bedouins, and the like. The number of human races delimited by biologists has ranged from three to over thirty."
And there is this from Richard Dawkin's book The Ancestor's Tale which shares your opposition to "ticking boxes on forms" but nonetheless:
"We can all happily agree that human racial classification is of no social value and is positively destructive of social and human relations. That is one reason why I object to ticking boxes on forms and why I object to positive discrimination in job selection. But that doesn’t mean that race is of “virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance.” This is Edwards’s point, and he reasons as follows. However small the racial partition of total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlated with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance."
Razib Khan, who is widely regarded in the field of population genetics, had this to say:
"An evolutionary chart, or phylogeny, of human population is not difficult to construct. Multiple different genetic methodologies have converged upon the same general pattern of Africans differentiating from non-Africans, and West Eurasians differentiating from East Eurasians, and so forth. Why? Though on any given gene, one may be more similar to an individual from some distant population than an individual from the same population, when looking at the average across many genes, there is a clear pattern whereby individuals from the same populations tend to share variants in common."
Instead of "has allowed herself to be dragged into a conversation based on" I would have written "embraced", as in --
Warren... embraced an outdated, harmful concept of racial blood—one that promotes the pernicious idea of biological differences among people—and she has pulled her supporters right along with her.
One of the unanswered questions about Warren's claim of minority status is whether it influenced the hiring committees at Penn and/or Harvard.*
Colin Diver, the dean at Penn law school when Warren was hired said to reporters:
“[Minority status] counts for way more if you are visibly, recognizably a person of color. There was nothing about her that was visibly, recognizably a person of color.”
This is a wonderfully revealing statement. Diversity is not about DNA. It is about how you present in a group photograph. (It is most certainly not about economic class or life experience.)
* * *
*Let me anticipate: Of course it did, you lying idiot! Thanks, Achilles.
Sigh. Late again.
No one got dragged or pulled. Warren and her ilk, including this Gessen chick, promoted and pushed and ran with their racist and racialist bile, exposing themselves (again) for who they really are.
Paging Crack, you're wanted on this thread, stat.
Elizabeth Warren is 1 /1024 Something Other Than White. This what you get when you mix New Age Homeopathy nonsense with Democrat Jim Crow One Drop Rule.
"Lying Sack-O'-Gawea"
Czechia.
Bohemomoravia.
She can dish it out, but cannot take it in, is my takeaway from her having taken over the senate seat from Brown, back in the day. Most of her commentary on him was that he was a "man whore," and when he shot back in the type of high school style she started with, she charged "anti woman, pro rape, etc." Which the media ate up like candy. No, I'm not going to say that she is a Bad Human Being (much like I say about Trump; both have their good points), but I can say that I have been voting against her in every election since she first ran.
People like to write off places like "outer Harvardlandia," as the neighboring cities in that particular campus's gravity pull are called. Voter turnout in my particular ward is a source of pride for us, regardless of our political takes. This said: somerville (aka Camberville by Buzzfeed sorts) generally votes beteen 30-40% conservative (Moderate, not like Essential Oil / snake Handling Conservatives easily confused with the Yoga / Reiki / Past Life Regression stuff.).
Henry said...
*Let me anticipate: Of course it did, you lying idiot! Thanks, Achilles.
At least you realize your position is embarrassingly naive and silly and in the end indefensible.
What could be more progressive than embracing the "one drop rule" from the Jim Crow era?
The authorette dishonestly misused the phrase "determined by a single drop of blood" hoping to associate or confuse it with the "one drop rule", but what it really means is that your race is determined by the DNA in your body, including a drop of blood.
"Race is just a social construct" = "You blacks need to get to the back of the bus."
https://scholar.harvard.edu/jlhochschild/publications/skin-color-paradox-and-american-racial-order
No one calls it Czechia.
Czechia. // "Dear Heart," in my heimatstadt.
She never said anything about the artificial concept of "race."
She never said anything about blood, or a "drop of blood."
We are not living in the 1870s. People are interested in their ancestry.
The New Yorker and other non-right wing publications need to stop assuming and trying to avoid saying what they think offends the right-wing. It doesn't work. The right-wing is offended by nature. The right-wing needs to be defeated, belittled and exposed, not placated.
There was no science here that was "bad." (And I'd really appreciate it if you stopped judging what science should somehow be or not be. Your scientific understanding of things is abysmal. Lawyers are notorious for warping science, but you take it to the point of an active disservice to your readers. If you don't understand something that you want to comment on, try asking for input. Parroting the New Yorker's presumptive anti-1870s racial constructs just plays into whatever outdated political irrelevancies they're trying to harp on. What else from 1870 do they feel it necessary to take a stand on? The Newtonian understanding of the universe?).
Pathetic.
She used a cheek swab anyway, not blood. Do these people (including the author of this posts who parrots them) know a thing about science? Saying we should stay away from DNA tests and ancestry studies in 2018 because of how people thought and judged others in 1870 is the dumbest cockamamie bunch of bullshit I've ever heard. I guess a lot of you are afraid of awakening your 1870s sympathies/sensitivities, or something.
What a bunch of crap.
Do the Native American Indians have good food?
I'm guessing that they don't. They probably only have peasant food that, at first glance, sux. That's why there's no restaurants.
My DNA don't got restaurants either. For the same reason, i.e. peasant food. But, I do love me some Lapskaus.
Blogger Annie C said...
If there is no biological difference, how do we study, diagnose and treat tay-sachs or sickle cell?
Tribes with a legal title to land and a legal right to make their own laws but which exist inside large national entities have this dilemma: do they define in terms of their own culture what is meant by "being a Cherokee" or "being a Basuto" or do they allow another culture using the methods of that other culture, namely genetic testing, to define their identity.
The Cherokee Nation has made a decision about who is a citizen of that Nation. That decision consciously excludes using genetic tests. It was felt that the decision as to who was a Cherokee or as to what is meant by "Cherokee" was not going to handed over to a "genetic expert." Most Native American Nations in the USA have made the same decision. But in other places such as South Africa genetic tests to determine who was a member of a tribe were accepted because for the various tribes in South Africa there were issues of land ownership and reparations to be resolved and these were tangled in such a way due to internal migration that only genetics could create a half way just solution.
The question of DNA v. culture is a hotly debated issue in indigenous circles though the terms are somewhat different than the ones we use. It's just one more piece of evidence that Elizabeth Warren is not a Cherokee that she was unaware of the debate. Furthermore, she attempted to prove she was Cherokee by using the method which the Cherokees have decided not to use; and she was totally unaware of how that would strike the group to which she allegedly belongs. Colin Kaepernick can kneel against the flag out of conviction; he can't claim that a genetic test that shows he is born to kneel against the flag and genetic tests are decisive, of course.
How many "drops of blood" do those who pride themselves on their connections to pilgrims or Thomas Jefferson need to disavow?
Just crap.
If someone is "really" a member of a race or ethnic group based on 1/1200 drop of dna from that group, then things are going to get wild. Virtually all American blacks have white blood--why doesn't that make them white? In some areas (like South Carolina) Chinese immigrants 150 years ago have intermarried and lost their identity, but that means many people are "really" Chinese. It is absurd.
"Saying we should stay away from DNA tests and ancestry studies in 2018 because of how people thought and judged others in 1870 is the dumbest cockamamie bunch of bullshit I've ever heard."
Really?
You've been in these threads for more than ten minutes. So, I'm guessing that you were joshing. That sorta BS occurs every other minute here.
Warren is a moron.
Talking about how Trump "scares me" and "He's a racist" and "Hey, I'm really Indian - Trump owes me a Million".
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
Everyone sees her for what she is. Another corrupt, lying Senator from Massachusetts.
Enjoy your hall of mirrors, Achilles.
>>And the entire rationale for "diversity" suffers a fatal blow if the "diversity" requirement can be satisfied by, for example, three *white people*, who are 1/512 Hispanic, 1/256 black, and 1/1024 AmerIndian respectively.
By the Warren Standard, I am a Negro, as our family emigrated to southern Europe from North Africa about 5 generations ago.
And: Barack Obama is 512x whiter than Warren is Cherokee.
Lucid-ides said...
I figured it out.
What the NYer is saying is that race shouldn't matter except when it does. Eureka!!! And that only they get to define when that is. Eureka again!!!
"LGBTetc activist" Masha Gessen merely parrots the current version of postmodernist dreck that is designed to drive normal people into silence by its ever-morphing bullying--a political version of the "dark arts" of Harry Potter fame.
Qua Alinsky, it's just a version of "squirrel!" by which opponents of this cultural poison are to be deflected from the fight or ground down into submission.
Whatever else President Trump is, he is an unstoppable challenger of this nasty worldview; he stands up against it when even to this day too many GOPers want to continue to play the pomo game. Those who do so are appropriately called, like Gessen, "losers."
President Pee-Pee Tape said...
The New Yorker and other non-right wing publications need to stop assuming and trying to avoid saying what they think offends the right-wing. It doesn't work. The right-wing is offended by nature. The right-wing needs to be defeated, belittled and exposed, not placated.
Poor Ritmo has to watch his heroes fall to Trump one by one.
The realization that you are a violent thuggy little bunch of wankers nobody likes probably isn't the worst part.
It is that you know you will never have power over us to make your violent thuggy little dreams come true.
You've been in these threads for more than ten minutes. So, I'm guessing that you were joshing. That sorta BS occurs every other minute here.
Oh no shit. I just see no need to normalize it. Call it out.
Only those who are full-blooded Jeffersonians may claim Thomas Jefferson ancestry, BTW, don't ya know? That means you must be derived from 17 generations of incestuous exclusive Jefferson-on-Jefferson 1st-degree relative action, or else you aren't really descended from Jefferson.
How motherfucking STUPID are these people? First the war on evolution, then on Keynesian economics, then geophysics, then basic macroeconomics, and now fucking genealogy. It's like we're dealing with morons from another dimension. Every generation dilutes your claim to someone from the last. Just because most Amerind tribes are admixed to an insane degree with every European and insanely paranoid about claims of "nationhood" (for whatever difference that makes) doesn't mean it's Warren's or any other voter's problem. Roots are roots, period. No one has a right to tell others which antecedent to be interested in or not. It's none of their fucking business.
The only reason this blows up the right-wing is because they're ethnicity obsessed. Warren is OTOH just interested in her own personal family history, as all the rest of us normal people are.
This whole reaction on the part of the race-conscious right doesn't deserve anything more than a giant raspberry.
"It is that you know you will never have power over us to make your violent thuggy little dreams come true."
You think Ritmo wants to violate you? This is what happens between your ears?
Oh my.
See a shrink.
STAT.
One way to stop playing the census box ticking game is to check the box that says "American." I did that in 2010 and will do so again next time.
Look everyone, it's Achilles!
The Horst Wessel of the Althouse Blog and the Trump Cult.
He's out for an honest-to-goodness ideological race war, don't ya know? With guns and everything.
He has erotic fantasies at night of civil war.
>One way to stop playing the census box ticking game is to check the box that says "American."
President Warren will make sure there are 1,024 boxes to check, so you can be properly classified.
You think Ritmo wants to violate you?
Achilles tried having a normal sex life, but the steroid abuse kills his woody and his marital relations. So he just fantasizes about violent civil confrontation instead 24/7. It's all good, not like his wife was expecting anything anyway.
Well, I see McD's after noon shift has ended and the failed molecular biology student Ritmo is loose.
And BTW, what about Don Tiny Hands Drumpf's family history? Dad was a tax fraud, granddad ran whorehouses in America and was refused entry when attempting to return to his native Germany to answer for the crimes he committed there.
Who's really afraid of whose family history?
Trump/Drumpf tried to sue Bill Maher for the joke about Drumpf's descent from an orangutan.
And lied until he could no longer do so about Obama's roots.
So it's not like anyone with a brain can't see what the Trump cultists are trying to do here.
Note: the politically incorrect term for "social justice warrior" is now "NPC."
Be fair. Rush Limbaugh still owns the intellectual property on this with his mind numbed robots quip.
It is not bad science to declare race a biological category. It is bad liberalism, bad popular social science, and bad DC politics, but it isn't bad science. We did not categorise in terms of the continental "populations" until after 1500, because duh, we didn't know that most of them were there and only vaguely knew the differences of those we knew about. The people who tell you that race is a social construct lean heavily on this. However, since that time we have found the world really is round, there are lots of different kinds of people, and very recently have discovered that even the junk DNA of a person, which gives no clue to their color or facial features, differentiates exactly along the lines that people instantly supposed when they saw only color and features. Shazaam!
And those races have other differences too, even though they aren't supposed to.
Go away Michael T. Kennedy. No nursemaid boys allowed.
Go take an exam where they won't fail you for the answer where you say that "Craig Venter discovered the human genome."
Eighty-year olds like you should chase around kids half your age on this internet thing. Better pastimes for someone as senile and angry as you include, well just dying already, for one thing.
I don't wish death on people but since Michael T. Kennedy obviously keeps refusing to get a life it sounds like that would be the next best thing for him.
I thought no one among the top tier of Democrat candidates could possibly be more tone-deaf and have worse political instincts than Hillary Clinton. Elizabeth Warren has proved me wrong.
Achilles tried having a normal sex life, but the steroid abuse kills his woody and his marital relations.
Poor little fella. Here's a fix:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duV7-0Sw2N0
Meanwhile, drudge linked to an article recently that Kenyans aren’t happy the Chicoms call them monkeys. But they want the funds....
It is not bad science to declare race a biological category.
It's not a fucking "category." If it is it's a very easily "violated" one.
Who told you to get the idea in your little Republican pea brain that people did not cross and interbreed with each other on each side of the Ural mountains or the Sahara desert?
A single physical feature that activates your atavistic chimpanzee "out-group" aggression does not mean that someone is really all that different from you. It just means that you are a Republican and can only see things on the surface. DNA is more than just skin deep.
Henry said...
Enjoy your hall of mirrors, Achilles.
Clever.
What do you think will happen to Warren's lead on RCP as we approach the election?
What do you suppose pretty much every democrat "lead" will do as we approach November?
If the same thing happens every single time why do you still believe these polls?
There isn't anything difficult about what I am doing.
Howard said...
Very happy Trump killed this candidate in utero
10/17/18, 5:23 PM
I remember a kid's toy growing up that consisted of a headband with an arrow pointing in and out to make you look like you had been shot through the head with an arrow. I suppose for her they should adopt your standard and have two ends of a coat hanger! Lord I'm not tired of winning. But then I take power naps.
>>Meanwhile, drudge linked to an article recently that Kenyans aren’t happy the Chicoms call them monkeys. But they want the funds....
The Chinese word for monkey is "Ho". If the Kenyans just want the money, maybe the Chinese are speaking English.
What do you think will happen to Warren's lead on RCP as we approach the election?
I wasn't asked, but I think that Massachusetts voters are smarter than Achilles Horst Wessel and know more about science and biology than Achilles Horst Wessel does about how to turn the rest of America fascist like him.
Saint Croix
Much of the ugly racism in the original Constitution revolved around the census. That's when black people were counted as 60% of a person. Anybody who thinks racial division by our government is appropriate should reflect on that.
Indeed.
If you're a progressive female leftist democrat socialist with a minuscule drop of Native American blood, you're a super 110% A++++ super candidate person. Because D.
Well, first of all, it is not my science. It was published in the American Journal of Human Genetics and is published by the American Society of Human Genetics.
France is white! Spain is Hispanic!
It's ridiculous. Sex undercuts any attempt to segregate out human beings into racial categories. It's junk science.
Saint Croix again
There's one race as far as our Constitution is concerned--the human race. And it's the denial of this simple fact that led to our Civil War. And the Republicans, as usual, should lead this fight. Let the Democrats explain and defend their race questions and racial divisions. Let the Democrats play these DNA games. We should shame the socialists on this question early and often. The left accuses Republicans of secret racism and hidden racism. They say, for instance, that requiring a voter ID is racist. Meanwhile, flat up racism by our government is ignored!
Worth a nice hearty bold
anti-de Sitter space said...
Achilles tried having a normal sex life, but the steroid abuse kills his woody and his marital relations.
Poor little fella. Here's a fix:
Horseface is going with small dick/impotence jokes too.
It is certainly a classic.
Most people come up with better stuff after they get out of grade school.
The stupid people stick with what they have though.
"Worth a nice hearty bold"
re:
"There's one race as far as our Constitution is concerned--the human race."
Ha ha ha!
Now Dick and Saint Hipster Drinks are for open boarders. Because that's what the Constitution calls for. According to them.
President Pee-Pee Tape said...
What do you think will happen to Warren's lead on RCP as we approach the election?
I wasn't asked, but I think that Massachusetts voters are smarter than Achilles Horst Wessel and know more about science and biology than Achilles Horst Wessel does about how to turn the rest of America fascist like him.
Ritmo believes she will win by 25 points just like the polls say.
Does anyone really think Warren is going to win by 25 points?
Not even Ritmo is that stupid.
Ach,
I hadn't heard that folks who would know are saying that DJT has a tiny, impotent dick.
Do you think that that's accurate?
At least he seems to be a billionaire.
But aside from his wee dick offsets, you probably have other things going for you. Maybe yur good at bowling.
I dunno.
"DNA games" lol.
One person, Warren - like so many other Americans and people in general - researched her roots.
Republicans tried to make a game out of it.
She wasn't afraid/embarrassed that she'd find a tax fraud, or a pimp who couldn't return to face trial for crimes in his native land and was refused re-entry. Or that there would be an orangutan there.
So Trump hates his family history, which isn't surprising. So he does anything to divert from that fact.
Does anyone really think Warren is going to win by 25 points?
She only has to win by one vote, since senate races are won by majority rule.
Talk of 25 points, or 99% to 1% election results - that's for jokers like Saddam Hussein and Donald Trump.
Where are we RE:
Getting rid of the Electoral College?
Getting rid of the Supreme Court?
Getting rid of the Senate?
Other Democrat plans to save the Constitution?
Long work day so thanks for keeping me up to date.
It's interesting how really smart people can be shockingly stupid.
For instance, James Watson won the Nobel prize for the discovery of DNA. So, smart guy, yes? And yet he was an embarrassing racist. Note the lack of scientific rigor in his comments.
Craig Venter, who mapped the human genome, is also a very smart guy. What he says about race is spot on.
So here are two very smart people, both geneticists, and they have diametrically opposite views on the question of race.
I see this in politics all the time. Very smart people, highly educated, and yet they can say and believe truly idiotic things.
For instance, my brother and I are both highly educated. I have a JD and a Master's, while my brother has a PhD. We grew up in the same environment and share much of the same DNA. And yet we have to avoid talking about politics at Thanksgiving because he and I don't agree on anything.
Laurence Tribe is a highly educated guy, incredibly smart. And yet he's quite comfortable defining an unborn child as sub-human property, and saying its right to kill the baby if the mother doesn't want her child.
Without question, some people are smarter than other people. But maybe we overestimate the importance of intelligence. There were smart Nazis and smart slave-owners. Watson and Tribe are both smarter than I am! And yet what's so shocking is how these very smart people can nonetheless have ideas that are evil, wrong, or stupid. It's like all their education just made them a more advanced, intellectual version of stupid. Stupid with bigger words and citations and footnotes.
It's kind of depressing, actually.
Has no one hear ever heard about the 3/5 Compromise? The compromise was over representation vs taxes. Slaves counted as 3/5 of a Person to reduce the representation in the Southern States ameliorated by taxes only being put on 3/5 of a Person. The southeners traded political power for money. They chose poorly.
Its amusing how even the leftie papers are leaving Phocohantas out to dry in no-mans land.The dam will have truly broken if the liberal lick spittles on late night t.v start having their fun with this.
Gahrie
The history of the 3/5 is well documented. That Cook doesn’t know it is unsurprising. That he argues anyway suggests he isn’t being honest. I know nothing of 4th century Samoan laws. As a result I don’t make claims about them. If I did 5hat would be dishonest.
If race is just a social construct, as Masha Gessen suggests, then what is the basis for any affirmative action?
That is the dilemma that Warren presents to the pseudo-intellectual Left.
If race is a social construct, it justifies AA because people socially identified as minorities are deemed to have suffered from past discrimination by the majority Whites.
Warren claimed AA status because she may have a drop of Native American blood (although likely less than the average White American). She never experienced the past discrimination that all minorities are assumed to have experienced. In other words, the system was gamed by one of their own "intellectual" lights.
It is an cluster flop for the Left.
Leland said:
“Further, if Harvard didn't hire based on race, then Warren wouldn't have had the opportunity to make the claim. This all happened long before Trump became President.
Perhaps Harvard should not discriminate in any way based on race. Then we wouldn't have to discuss exactly what constitutes a race or whether and how a person belongs to that race.”
This.
Ritmo Brasileiro said...
It's good to know that the stupidest threads are just ripe for the threadjacking. I'll be sure to leave a trail of turds on every one of the brain droppings here that suit my fancy. ...
10/16/10,
"Leland said:
“Further, if Harvard didn't hire based on race, then Warren wouldn't have had the opportunity to make the claim. This all happened long before Trump became President.
Perhaps Harvard should not discriminate in any way based on race. Then we wouldn't have to discuss exactly what constitutes a race or whether and how a person belongs to that race.”
This."
Perhaps, before this chain continues fer too many more links, someone should realize that this fake Indian wasn't hired because she said she was an Indian.
Saint Croix said...
Note the lack of scientific rigor in his comments.
You expect scientific rigor from The Independent, but not from The American Journal of Human Genetics, the US National Library of Medicine or the National Institutes of Health ?
Some creative editing will summarize your posts:
I...believe truly idiotic things.
One person's dead thread is a dead echo chamber.
Who needs genetics when you can self-identify as anything you want on any given day! Or so I'm constantly told by the left. So pow-wow-chow on, Cherokee Warren, (not so) member of the (not so Jewish, or any other) tribe.
You are a joke. And not a funny one.
Just for fun, keep in mind that all domestic dogs are in the same sub-species of Canis, not just in the same species.
President Pee-Pee Tape said...
Does anyone really think Warren is going to win by 25 points?
She only has to win by one vote, since senate races are won by majority rule.
Talk of 25 points, or 99% to 1% election results - that's for jokers like Saddam Hussein and Donald Trump.
So RCP is a joker like Trump and Saddam Hussein? RCP has Warren up 25 points right now.
Why does anyone take this polling seriously?
It is clearly not accurate.
The left is just not used to not getting called out on their flaws. The media for decades has been very compliant to democrats. The last mainstream media personality who would be tough on democrats was probably Tim Russert. And that is not to say that those who were contemporaneous with him or came before were tough on Dems when warranted. Also the Republicans very rarely would call out Dems on their flaws. If they did it was to a right wing audience on talk radio. Trump is willing to call out Dems publicly, frequently, and without mercy. Since he is the President it gets lots of play on the mainstream media. Dems are just not used to how to deal with public shame and criticism. So now many react emotionally and stupidly. Even this article is an example of the coddling Dems receive from the mainstream media. It paints Elizabeth Warren as a victim of Trump, as if she has no agency and no fault. When in reality she was 100% in control of her own situation.
Elizabeth Warren's DNA debacle was a completely unforced error. I can understand wanting to put the whole native American thing to rest, but you need the ability to do that before you try it. She is probably of victim of her and everyone around her, succumbing to their emotions. Emotionally it must feel good and the right thing to attack or fight back against Trumpian allegations. But a more level headed person would have pointed out the foolishness of her move.
Everything is Trump's fault, even Warren acting like an idiot.
If you only consumed news, you'd think the whole of the earth bent to Donald Trump.
Trump is the alpha and omega of Medialand.
Anybody interested in more info than just polls, check this thread:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1052710045375295488.html
Actually analyzing ballots requested and ballots returned might hold more value than guesses by pollsters.
Give it a shot.
"If you only consumed news, you'd think the whole of the earth bent to Donald Trump."
No, you wouldn'ta thunk that.
But, you may determine that he's at the top of the most powerful entity that the earth has ever known. But you'd probably not be too sure about that. Cause he behaves like someone less responsible and considered than someone needs ta be re that responsibility.
The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward Trump.
anti-de Sitter space said...
Ach,
I hadn't heard that folks who would know are saying that DJT has a tiny, impotent dick.
Do you think that that's accurate?
He's got five kids, bitch, I think his junk works. And if he fucked around with Daniels or whoever, who does that if they can't get off? No, that's your guys like Weinstein.
There are obvious biological differences between races.
Really? How many races and what are their distinguishing “obvious biological differences”?
Perhaps what you are conceptualizing are the basic genetic strands that make up modern humans. Could it be similar to light used to create a picture using only three colors? Red light, green light and blue light can be combined to create any color, and withheld to simulate darkness, the absence of light. Perhaps the various “races” you perceive are actually just varying combinations of the negroid, caucasoid and mongoloid genetic pallet. Maybe the human race is the only race and we are all 99.44% the same.
Just to be clear, I agree with everything else Francisco D wrote. Especially his conclusion.
Could it be similar to light used to create a picture using only three colors? Red light, green light and blue light can be combined to create any color,
Very similar. Red, Blue and Green are distinct separate colors, just as their are three distinct genetic populations (does that work better for you than "races"?) of humans. Red is no better or worse than green or blue. All three can be combined to produce intervening shades. But the objective truth is that red is not blue...it's red.
At what point do we acknowledge that physical and genetic differences produce different animals? Apparently when it comes to things like spotted owls, such differences are vital and important, but we are told that in humans not so much. I know of no one who denies that Neanderthals are humans, but a different type of human based on physical attributes and genetic differences. Well a sub-Saharan African has different physical attributes and different genetics than a Central European or an East Asian.
Robert Cook said...
This gave power TO the slave-holders and to the slave holding states.
It gave them less power than counting slaves as whole people. Which is what the slave holding states wanted. Unlike today, where the cities that welcome the illegal immigrants that hold down wages and do all the menial tasks at the bidding of the rich white liberals who employ them are counted for the purposes of representation in congress. Thus giving those same liberal DEMOCRATS more political power than they could otherwise wield.
FullMoon the Carpenter of Illiteracy said...
Nothing that anybody read, nothing intelligent and nothing interesting.
But apparently he said it in protest against the fact that race was over-rated. So there's that.
Measure never, cut twice. Contractor to the morons.
@Saint Croix:
Without question, some people are smarter than other people. But maybe we overestimate the importance of intelligence.
If anything, we underestimate it. This is all predicted in Michael Young's The Rise of the Meritocracy, a satire of Britain's tripartite educational system. The same phenomenon was discussed more technically by Murray and Hernstein in The Bell Curve. Unfortunately, the actual thesis of the book got lost in the whirlwind of hysteria that surrounded the book. In the modern world, access to elite universities, institutions, and positions is driven in a large degree by performance in school and on standardized tests. This is a meritocratic system as it can identify cognitively gifted people from impoverished backgrounds and allow them to advance. Given the average differences in IQ between northeast Eurasians, northwest Eurasians, and sub-Saharan Africans, a so called "achievement gap" between the races is going to persist and not likely to be amenable to social intervention.
Differences in average cognitive ability says nothing about any human being's moral worth as a person. Nobody believes that someone with an IQ of 110 is somehow inherently better than someone with an IQ of 90. Someone who is more physically skilled than another person is not considered to be morally superior to that person.
I've come across so many white folks claiming to be Native American NewAge shamen, if that bitch had led just one nature hike, I would've believed her.
A number of commenters have opined that Warren should just "self-identify" as Indian. I think they are on to a serious point. The left culture was so enthusiastic to insist that a person with a penis could actually be a woman (or vice versa) because of (inherently unverifiable) feelings of internal conflict about identification, that they (left culture) failed to understand that this same process might allow others to credibly claim identification with other groups. And that in term virtually eliminates any possibility of reparations for "blacks" -- are we not all black, if that means collecting a tidy sum from the government? And it could, though it hasn't yet, severely undermine any system of affirmative action or racial preferences. (Remember Col. Klinger in MASH?)
"It gave them less power than counting slaves as whole people. Which is what the slave holding states wanted."
Of course they wanted it as that would have given them even more representation and power, but the slaves were not really being represented in Washington. The slave holding states were being given representation in Congress for, essentially, their livestock.
J. Farmer said: "Nobody believes that someone with an IQ of 110 is somehow inherently better than someone with an IQ of 90."
I don't think this is right. I the people in the universities and media very much think that there should be a class that runs things, and that those who should be ruled are mentally lacking.
"No that wasn't the choice. The slave states insisted that slaves count as a whole person, and the northern states insisted that they not count at all. The compromise that allowed the Constitution to be ratified is that they would count as 3/5ths of a person. If the north had continued to insist they not count at all, the Constitution would have never been ratified and the union never formed."
Yes. The slave-holding states coerced the other states into agreeing to give them greater representation in Congress than they actually warranted. The compromise was reached to ensure each side got something of they they wanted: more power to the South than they should have had and ratification of the Constitution. It was a successful power-grab by the slave-holders.
It was a successful power-grab by the Constitutional Convention.
FIFY.
Anarchists lost.
Ah, yes: the non-slave holding states were "anarchists." You reveal yourself.
Differences in average cognitive ability says nothing about any human being's moral worth as a person.
No but what has happened is that those who consider themselves "Elites" on the basis of cognitive ability have failed at the basic task of competence that the rest of the country assumed would be the reason why they were allowed the privileges of being "Elite."
In 1890, there was an elite based on family. Some was based on experience such as service in the Civil War. McKinley had gone from private to Major in the war on the basis of performance.
By 1910, there was pressure to allow those with no family but with higher intelligence on such things as testing. IN the First World War, the Army began to use an intelligence test. After the War, the Army Alpha Test was adapted for college application. That was first used in 1926.
After World War II the GI Bill, one of the most successful government programs of all time (aside from war) sent millions to college.
The Scholastic Aptitude Test was initially used for scholarship applicants but was used for all college admissions by the 1950s.
Since the advent of political correctness in the 1970s, it has been dumbed down and is now called only the SAT, to avoid suggesting that it is testing ability.
The Elites gone back to family and connections to avoid the leveling effect of the SAT.
Blogger Robert Cook said...
Ah, yes: the non-slave holding states were "anarchists." You reveal yourself.
No, you are the anarchist. The Constitution involved a number of compromises to obtain a working government.
You oppose that government.
Mike said...
There are obvious biological differences between races.
Really? How many races and what are their distinguishing “obvious biological differences”?
I've been told that Marine snipers are trained to differentiate between Chinese and Japanese, Serb and Bosnian, and so forth, based on traits observable through a telescopic sight, like the contours of lips, noses, epicanthic folds. Medicines are described as ineffective or dangerous for this group or that group. There's something there! If you don't want to call it race, pick your synonym or euphemism. Ethnicity. Heritage. Bananafish. Race, or something like it, evidently exists and can be detected and measured. We're not talking about souls here.
Blogger Rory said...
J. Farmer said: "Nobody believes that someone with an IQ of 110 is somehow inherently better than someone with an IQ of 90."
I don't think this is right. I the people in the universities and media very much think that there should be a class that runs things, and that those who should be ruled are mentally lacking.
Absolutely. To many of the "smart set," the 90 IQ is the 110 IQ's lawful prey.
Population geneticist Jerry Coyne has a good post about the technical awfulness of Gessen's article.
"I've been told that Marine snipers are trained to differentiate between Chinese and Japanese, Serb and Bosnian, and so forth, based on traits observable through a telescopic sight, like the contours of lips, noses, epicanthic folds. Medicines are described as ineffective or dangerous for this group or that group. There's something there! If you don't want to call it race, pick your synonym or euphemism. Ethnicity. Heritage. Bananafish. Race, or something like it, evidently exists and can be detected and measured. We're not talking about souls here."
"Ethnicity" and "heritage," are fine. I'd suggest a good term would be different "families" of humankind. Families pass on genetic material from parent to child, marking them as related, passing on common physical and non-physical traits, as do groups of humans in different places around the globe. The distinctive genetic markers and traits reflect a relative amount of, you might say, "in-breeding" (that is, common relations) among the people within distinct geographical areas over time. So, Japanese, Chinese, Europeans, Middle-Easterners, etc., are just different "families" of one race, the human race.
The term "race," as it has been used, has come to imply there is something fundamentally different about humans of these different families, as if they were different species of animals.
"No, you are the anarchist. The Constitution involved a number of compromises to obtain a working government.
"You oppose that government."
For a former doctor, you are sometimes shockingly childish and simple-minded in the things you say and (apparently) think.
The term "race," as it has been used, has come to imply there is something fundamentally different about humans of these different families, as if they were different species of animals.
That's because there is, both genetically and physically. But not different species, different sub species.
I haven't read Scott Adams in a long time--is he holding up this New Yorker article as proof for his assertion that Trump is a Master Persuader??
Robert Cook said...The slave-holding states coerced the other states into agreeing to give them greater representation in Congress than they actually warranted.
Ooh, careful Robert! Even implying that representation should be based on the actual citizen population (as opposed to simply a count of the number of humans currently residing in a state) is enough to earn you an instant RACIST label these days. I wouldn't want you to inadvertently say something ugly.
Yeah, she fell for the trap, but it was a trap she set for herself years ago when she claimed to be a Native American for her own benefit. Trump was merely exploiting a weakness that already existed. That said, Warren could have handled it better than declaring she might be slightly more (or slightly less) Native American than the average white person, followed by spiking the football until she realized that the response was not as anticipated as everyone realized that she had undermined her own claim, followed by freaking out. I am not sure how she could have done it worse, frankly, without committing a homicide or running naked through a public area or making Indian war whoops.
The people who fell into a trap that Trump set were the media, who revealed themselves to be biased dolts once again.
You expect scientific rigor from The Independent, but not from The American Journal of Human Genetics, the US National Library of Medicine or the National Institutes of Health?
I expect scientific rigor from James Watson. He was accurately quoted. He made the comments to one of his former students, Charlotte Hunt-Grubbe, who was interviewing him for the Sunday Times Magazine. He's never disputed the quotes.
From an interview he gave a couple of years afterwards:
"I have never thought of myself as a racist. I don't see myself as a racist. I am mortified by it. It was the worst thing in my life."
The other results of Liz Warren's DNA test:
1. More Hispanic than Beto O'Rourke.
2. 0% Presidential material.
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