September 10, 2018

"Durkheim saw groups and communities as being in some ways like organisms—social entities that have a chronic need..."

"... to enhance their internal cohesion and their shared sense of moral order. Durkheim described human beings as 'homo duplex,' or 'two-level man.' We are very good at being individuals pursuing our everyday goals (which Durkheim called the level of the 'profane,' or ordinary). But we also have the capacity to transition, temporarily, to a higher collective plane, which Durkheim called the level of the 'sacred.' He said that we have access to a set of emotions that we experience only when we are part of a collective—feelings like 'collective effervescence,' which Durkheim described as social 'electricity' generated when a group gathers and achieves a state of union. (You’ve probably felt this while doing things like playing a team sport or singing in a choir, or during religious worship.) People can move back and forth between these two levels throughout a single day, and it is the function of religious rituals to pull people up to the higher collective level, bind them to the group, and then return them to daily life with their group identity and loyalty strengthened. Rituals in which people sing or dance together or chant in unison are particularly powerful. A Durkheimian approach is particularly helpful when applied to sudden outbreaks of moralistic violence that are mystifying to outsiders...."

From "The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure" by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt — which I started reading a couple days ago and am in the middle of reading.

I wanted to blog this passage because of the prompt, "You’ve probably felt this while doing things like playing a team sport or singing in a choir, or during religious worship." Tell me how you relate to that. I'll tell you how I do.

I've been in some situations where I have seen it happening to other people, and my own reaction was markedly to separate from the group and become especially aware of my individuality. I never feel pulled into the collective. It has the opposite effect on me. I don't know why I'm immune, but I may have been inoculated by Frank Zappa.

It was Friday, February 2, 1969, at the Fillmore East, and in the middle of the show Zappa — I believe he was wearing red velvet/satin pants — divided up the audience into parts — maybe 4 sections — each assigned to sing out when pointed at. I didn't sing when pointed at, but I was interested in the sound he got flowing through the big audience as he escalated to more and more elaborate pointing patterns. He kept going until the crowd — struggling to respond to his showy conducting — could not keep up and it became cacophony. At that point, as I remember it, Zappa gave the crowd a gesture — perhaps a contemptuous 2-handed get-outta-here — and said something to the effect of, You people were idiots to have followed me in the first place. But I had not followed him, and so my resistance to the ecstasy of crowd merger — which I'd worried was stand-offish and putting me at risk of a joyless future — was vindicated.

That was a rather innocuous occasion. (And — I had to look this up — the words "innocuous" and "inoculate" do not have a shared etymology. The "oc" in "inoculate" goes back to the Lain word for eye — "oculus" — which also came to mean bud. The idea of grafting a bud into a plant got transferred into the medical context we think of today, which I was using metaphorically, above. The extra "n" in "innocuous" should get you to see — with your oculus — that it's not "oc" but "noc." That word comes from "nocere," the Latin meaning to hurt, which is also the source of "noxious.")

So... that Frank Zappa routine was a rather innocuous display, but it worked — as he intended? — to inoculate at least some of us... at least me... from susceptibility to collective effervescence.

When else have I seen that kind of crowd merger and felt stronger in my sense of individuation? First, I remember another concert — Pantera, in 1996. I attended this concert here in Madison only because in those days I had the privilege of driving 15-year-old boys to concerts. I enjoyed it, but in a distanced way, and there were times when the lead singer was exhorting a crowd and the crowd was responding en masse in a way that made me contemplate what it would be like to be in the midst of a 1930s Nazi rally. And, most notably, I remember the Wisconsin protests of 2011, as they gained momentum day by day, with endless hours of drumming and chanting. The protesters would stay for long hours in the state capitol building — many of them overnight — and I would observe for a while then go home but come back another day. So the changes in the atmosphere were very striking to me. Whatever serious ideas and beliefs individual protesters may have had, their collective mind was courting madness.

IN THE COMMENTS: Lots of great stuff, but I wanted to highlight this video recommended byDust Bunny Queen ("One of the best recent examples of this spontaneous collective effervescence is the Green Day concert in Hyde Park, England in 2017. Green Day was late and to keep the crowd entertained the song by Queen Bohemian Rhapsody was played on loud speakers. The crowd spontaneously started to sing all the words, perform to the song, singing, dancing, jumping. Bohemian Rhapsody by by 65,000+ singers"):



That was great. I got chills watching/listening here at my little desk.

286 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 286 of 286
tim maguire said...

DBQ, great Green Day link. I wonder, though, were they signing along with Queen? Or were they referencing Wayne's World?

Bill Peschel said...

Here's another example of crowd control, with the EDM group getting the audience to move eight steps to the left and right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dncVUXs_OP8

I prefer the Bohemian Rhaposody vid. It's something the crowd did without direction from the stage. Or maybe Brits have done this so much it's like the Baltimore Orioles crowd shouting "O" during the National Anthem. They know the script.

Howard said...

Raylan Givens...snort

The Crack Emcee said...

Michael K said...

"Says the man with no self awareness."

Ghetto Celebrity: Searching for My Father in Me is a memoir that mentions me - twice - as not only self-aware but as probably one of the most honorable men the author knows.

What you got, Doc? A bunch of people suing you for fraud, of one kind or another, right?

Go play on your golf cart, Freak.

Roger Sweeny said...

Near the end of his career, the great historian William McNeill wrote Keeping Together in Time: Dance and Drill in Human History. It was inspired by the mindless drilling and marching he had to undergo in WW II, which turned out to be great for "unit cohesiveness."

As the 1800s turned into the 1900s, one of the great questions of social thought was, "Is society a mechanism or an organism?" Is it artificial and imposed, moving parts in a machine, or is it a unity, a natural whole? The answer, of course, is that it is neither. It is an ecology, an interaction of individuals that works together, but never perfectly harmoniously, sometimes far from perfectly.

The Crack Emcee said...

Howard said...

"Trumpensinas shouldn't listen to Kurt Anderson"

Just like liberals shouldn't listen to Jordan Peterson. Hey - I got it:

Everybody put your fingers in your ears and say "La-la-la-la-la-la!" for as long as you can. That'll fix everything.

Sebastian said...

"Near the end of his career, the great historian William McNeill wrote Keeping Together in Time: Dance and Drill in Human History"

Hey, hey, already mentioned upthread.

But great minds etc.

The Crack Emcee said...

Jay Elink said...

Raylan Givens is a fictional character - which hardly comports with the topic at hand: you not being in-touch with reality.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ Tim I wonder, though, were they signing along with Queen? Or were they referencing Wayne's World?

A little of both. The song by Queen was being played to the crowd to keep them amused while Green Day was getting their act together....literally :-D

The crowd decided to sing along. THEN when they get to the Waynes World head banging part, you can see the crowd jumping and head banging...ala Garth and Wayne. There are a lot of other videos taken by people in the audience. In those you can see the bad singing, funny close ups of the people, the expressions of sheer joy on their faces to be a part of the spontaneous event.

I chose the other one though, because it illustrated the power of so many people coming together to make a beautiful whole experience.

The sum is sometimes far greater than the individual parts.

narciso said...

But Elmore Leonard was a student of human nature,

The Crack Emcee said...

Raylan Givens at Jonestown:

"They can't ALL be assholes."

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Raylan Givens would've fallen for every cult ever invented, because he'd never be able to tell anyone to fuck off.

No need for him to to "tell" anyone that. He would just shoot them.

In the script only of course, since we are now discussing fictional characters

:-D

Rabel said...

"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

"E pluribus unum"

Sometimes, for the greater good, one needs to put aside the ego boost inherent in the conception of the self as an individualist.

This probably doesn't apply to group singing.

mockturtle said...

RigelDog: Thank you! I'm always open to good book recommendations.

Krumhorn said...

I am completely with our hostess on this. I reflexively pull away from any effort to make me participate in some group thing. Today, it’s impossible to avoid "collective effervescence” at concerts when legions of the audience either wave their arms like wheat in a summer breeze, or worse, wave their cellphones with the flashlight activated. A sea of "collective effervescence”.

The other common group think is the obligatory standing ovation. That’s a tough one because you are forced to the choice of standing for an unexceptional performance, or sitting in perceived disapproval. I invariably stand reluctantly because by sitting, it appears that I am taking a knee. I wish I could hold up a sign “I liked it, but it wasn’t exceptional”. Even that leaves an unintended thumbs down aftertaste. Maybe “I’m crabby. Get off my lawn!”

- Krumhorn

tim in vermont said...

"If that f – – – ing bastard wins we all hang from nooses!" -HRC, purportedly.

tim in vermont said...

BTW, Matt Lauer did figuratively "swing" after that fucking bastard won.

Lyle Sanford, RMT said...

What a great post and comment thread. I'm a music therapist, so all kinds of bells got rung. Two quick points: 1) Don't assume it's your voice that's the problem and that a group couldn't be good if you were to sing in it. Even a half step difference in the key can make a tune harder or easier to sing, and a lot of church hymnals pitch things way too high for regular people without trained voices. I recently did music for a church service with tunes pitched pitched low and the congregation sounded great and had a great time. 2) My not-being-a-joiner manifested in refusing to read books everyone else was - like Lord of the Rings - held off for years ;-)

Roger Sweeny said...

"Your disdain for the crowd effect, is that at its core fear?"

when you say "fear," what I am hearing is a personality trait framed as a negative that should be overcome. I think my strong sense of individuality in the face of crowd emotion is just fine and I'm sticking with it and am trying to put it to good effect.


Fear can be a very positive emotion. It can even be cool and rational. As I look over the edge of a cliff, I fear falling over and thus am careful to brace myself and to make sure the ground is solid underneath. I fear being burned by the fire so I don't get drunk and wander close.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

Many people have so little sense of self that they will easily, gladly, and enthusiastically join a mob.

Rigelsen said...

Ann wrote: But, no, I've never felt merged with the group through singing. It makes me more aware of myself, and not in a good way, but self-conscious because I think I'm bad and because I find it hard to breathe.

Sometimes, voices in concert achieve a harmony that the individual voices taken apart cannot match. Other times, it’s cacophony, but unless one voice is markedly louder than the rest, the blaim cannot be placed on any single voice.

Which is to say, if you sing at or below the rest of the crowd, the only person noticing will be you.

And, as long as you’re keeping your head and making sure you don’t do anything you’ll regret later, there’s something pleasurable, even exhilarating, about going with the crowd, sometimes. Other times, it can make you feel dirty. The trick is recognizing ahead of time which is which.

Rhhardin wrote: Erving Goffman, a much better sociologist than Durkheim...

Doesn’t sound like he’s that good from your excerpt. Yes, the social dimension is important to an individual’s self conception, but it is only one part of our experiential life. People have thoughts, activities, and even relationships that don’t involve groups and organizations. Kinda silly to pretend these things don’t exist or aren’t important to people’s senses of self.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

"I despise the group activities in business retreats... But singing along at a concert? Why not? ... I've always liked the idea of Frank Zappa better than I liked Frank Zappa. Now I like the idea of Frank Zappa a little less."

I agree. I tend to be individualistic, but that's partly because of my own particular traits, not because all collective action is bad, or all individualism is good. And Orwell, despite his warnings about groupthink, was a socialist to the end.

Zappa had his good points, but was still kind of a jerk.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Lyle said: a lot of church hymnals pitch things way too high for regular people without trained voices. I recently did music for a church service with tunes pitched pitched low and the congregation sounded great and had a great time

THANK YOU!!!

I am a Mezzo Soprano to Contralto range (mostly the lower range). (Think Judy Garland, Vince Gill and rarely if I stretch Linda Ronstadt's upper range.) I could never sing in Church (long long ago when we used to attend) because I either had to screech or go down an octave and sing with the guys.

Pitching the songs to the average voice is so much better.

Robert Cook said...

"I admit that I don't get the whole 'unify' thing as a goal in politics."

Um...because political power comes only through a coalition of people sharing roughly similar ideas and working for particular goals. A scattered motley of individuals cannot obtain political influence or achieve any goals. It's not about people all thinking identically, but people working toward commonly agreed upon objectives.

Mr. Groovington said...

James Graham said... I highly recommend the only book I've ever read twice: Crowds and Power by Elias Canetti

Well, haven’t read it in 20 years or more, but you’re right, a memorable and important read.

tim maguire said...

DBQ, I agree with your choice. Something about this vast field of people singing together is quite powerful. What I was wondering, re: Wayne's World, is, if not for that movie, would they have sung along at all? If not, then it's a meta-reference. Which is pretty cool in its own right.

Lewis Wetzel said...

I've heard that the types of activities you enjoy participating in or observing provide a tell about how group oriented you are. Sports are obvious (team or individual), but many people are pushed into playing sports in school, and not many people play sports for long out of high school or college.
But what do you watch, freely, in person or on television? Football? Baseball? Bicycling? Golf?
Do you identify with an individual competing with other individuals, or as a team competing with another team?

Nonapod said...

Wayne's World, is, if not for that movie, would they have sung along at all?

Possibly not, but that was in the UK where Queen's popularity hadn't waned as significantly throughout the 1980s.

Bohemian Rhapsody was a reasonably popular tune in its day (late 70s), but had generally faded from the youth public consciousness by the time Wayne's World came out in the early 1992. That movies reignited interest in that song and in Queen in general, and I think pushed that song to a level of popularity that it hadn't reached originally.

People forget that in the US Queen sort of dropped off in popularity throughout the 1980s. The twin events of Wayne's World and the significant death of Freddie Mercury brought a bunch of new attention to them in the early 90s.

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

The book is also about the SJW-mob- and how these sad weak-willed mobsters will some day be abusing us in our memory care/nursing homes.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Wayne's World, is, if not for that movie, would they have sung along at all? If not, then it's a meta-reference. Which is pretty cool in its own right.

Tim....Ah....I see what you are asking.

No. Probably not have been known or sung along by so many people, without the Wayne's World boost to popularity with an entirely new (younger) generation. Like Nonapod said.

Queen is of my generation and I consider them among the top creative groups of not just that time. The complex song writing, arranging, talent and skill in all of Queen was phenomenally good.

mockturtle said...

I suspect the concerts I attend are quite different from those attended by most of the commenters here.

Saint Croix said...

It happens in church all the time. Great feeling.

I was in a bar one time--Brogen's on St. Simon's Island--when out of the blue, the whole bar started singing American Pie. That was awesome.

mockturtle said...

...drove my Chevy to the levy but the levy was dry.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“What you got, Doc? A bunch of people suing you for fraud, of one kind or another, right?”

I’ve often wondered the same thing.

Inga...Allie Oop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Inga...Allie Oop said...


“It happens in church all the time. Great feeling.”

True! “How Great thou Art” and most Christmas carols have brought tears to eyes, the feeling of oneness with the Congregation. Yes liberals do feel these things in church.

mikeski said...

"X Japan" could take an encore break in the middle of "Endless Rain", with the audience repeating the 4-line chorus the whole time they were offstage.

(Conformism is big in Japan.)

Howard said...

Blogger The Crack Emcee said...
Howard said...
"Trumpensinas shouldn't listen to Kurt Anderson"
Just like liberals shouldn't listen to Jordan Peterson. Hey - I got it:
Everybody put your fingers in your ears and say "La-la-la-la-la-la!" for as long as you can. That'll fix everything.


Yeah, that's what I was mocking. Liberals dislike J Peterson because soundbites and conservatives like Peterson because soundbites. His long-form lectures are very interesting and non-ideological

Jordan Peterson: Maps of Meaning 1 (Harvard Lectures)
Biblical Series I: Introduction to the Idea of God

tim in vermont said...

His long-form lectures are very interesting and non-ideological

Except he commits the unpardonable sin of throwing fascists and communists in the same sorting bin.

tim in vermont said...

Yes liberals do feel these things in church.

So are people with lower need for community connection and higher need for individual freedom somehow defective? Asking for a friend.

Fernandinande said...

"Echidna Arf (Of You)" with an early Mickey Mouse band playing.

Fernandinande said...

Liberals dislike J Peterson because soundbites and conservatives like Peterson because soundbites. His long-form lectures are very interesting and non-ideological

I dislike him, or more properly, I'm not interested in him, because of his lectures.

narciso said...

in other news:

https://dailycaller.com/2018/09/10/joseph-mifsud-alive/

Sheridan said...

Graduation from Air Force basic training, back in 1972 when the impacts of corroding morale were impacting the entire US military (more strongly felt in the Army where the riots in Germany were still occurring)I underwent one of those group unifying moments. I decided later that the presence of a live military band had a lot to do with it. Music in the military seems to have a weird, galvanizing effect on human minds especially those that are in an organized, disciplined formation. I still mist-up a bit at "Men of Harlach", "I Vow to Thee My Country", "Battle Hymn of the Republic", etc. But I retain my individuality now. Back in 1972 me and all the hippies who made it through basic were weirdly conjoined.

Narayanan said...

Apply to Trump rally ...
What would happen if he doesn't show?

Howard said...

Blogger Fernandistein said...

Liberals dislike J Peterson because soundbites and conservatives like Peterson because soundbites. His long-form lectures are very interesting and non-ideological

I dislike him, or more properly, I'm not interested in him, because of his lectures.


While I assume you identify as conservative, you are hard to pigeonhole. What pisses me off is you using my passport photo as your avatar.

narciso said...

looking past the ambient noise,


http://thefederalist.com/2018/09/10/barack-obama-reminds-us-why-donald-trump-is-president/#.W5a2xAnqZoA.twitter

DavidD said...

“ ‘ “[C]ollective effervescence,” which Durkheim described as social “electricity” generated when a group gathers and achieves a state of union.’ ”

Sounds like “flow,” only that’s a solitary thing.

Howard said...

DavidD: Swing, in an 8-oared shell, the entire Grateful Dead audience dancing and twirling and the silent drill team are examples of non-solitary flow.

Narayanan said...

Times when I join hands in Grace, but keep my eyes open and head up.

I Thank the earthly producers

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“While I assume you identify as conservative, you are hard to pigeonhole. What pisses me off is you using my passport photo as your avatar.”

What a handsome fellow!

narciso said...


This isn't inflammatory:

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/09/wapo_accuses_fl_gubernatorial_candidate_of_attending_racially_charged_conferences.html

JaimeRoberto said...

It seems this could apply to an Obama speech too.

Francisco D said...

"Liberals dislike J Peterson because soundbites and conservatives like Peterson because soundbites. His long-form lectures are very interesting and non-ideological."

I have worked with a lot of liberals in the psychological sciences and clinical field. Most either enjoy Peterson or have grudging respect for him. I would differentiate these people from SJWs who know very little and want to impose their ignorance on others - Maoist style if necessary.

One does not have to fully agree with Peterson to enjoy him. He is a thinker who uses science, but understands its limitations. He pushes the envelope of his understanding as well as that of his audience. His ideology is freedom of thought and speech. The university post-modernists have a different view and thus, despise him.

sinz52 said...

The main reason why so many sitcoms had laugh tracks was because the producers figured that you would be more likely to laugh when a lot of other people were laughing.

sinz52 said...

"But what do you watch, freely, in person or on television? Football? Baseball? Bicycling? Golf?
Do you identify with an individual competing with other individuals, or as a team competing with another team?"

I don't watch any team sports.

All the activities I identify with, focus on individuals rather than teams:

Go (an ancient Oriental board game)
Monopoly (the Parker Brothers board game)
Investing in the stock market
Do-it-yourself home repair, etc.
Building custom personal computers

Michael K said...

9/10/18, 3:43 PM
Blogger Inga...Allie Oop said...
“What you got, Doc? A bunch of people suing you for fraud, of one kind or another, right?”

I’ve often wondered the same thing.


I was going t leave this alone. Crack, Inga and trumpit seems to share a persona.

narciso said...


She seems to have agitated buzzfeed:


http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/405807-a-news-consumers-guide-to-astroturf-sources

Francisco D said...

"Crack, Inga and trumpit seems to share a persona."

Michael, nurses tend to have crushes on docs, don't they? Maybe she is attracted to you.

If I recall correctly, her deceased husband was an MD. She seems to be acting out some uncomfortable emotions.

It is unfortunate.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

"Jack's idea of heaven is a crowd"

The Crown season 2 episode 8 - Queen and Mrs. Kennedy conversation

narciso said...


Another way of looking at it:

https://www.city-journal.org/new-york-times-anonymous-trump-oped-16163.html

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“She seems to be acting out some uncomfortable emotions.”

LOL.

Oy.

Phil 314 said...

Hombre said
“Two things popped up for me while reading the blog entry and comments:

“I am my own God,” and

Generalizing about “them” is ever so satisfying.”


Two things popped in my head reading this comment:

“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

and

“Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

Michael K said...

I don't know about the bedpan commando but Crack is right in line with his
hero, Stokely.


Two others are way ahead of it: “The only good Zionist is a dead Zionist we must take a lesson from Hitler” and “The only position for women in SNCC is prone."

Anti-Semitism has become socially acceptable among Democrats, but the party that sent in activists to scream that Brett Kavanaugh was a horrible sexist and a sexual harasser by association is okay with Stokely’s sexism and Booker’s admiration of him. The left’s standards, like its vision, are all double.

Stokely Carmichael, better known as Kwame Ture, was a leftist bigot who had called for racist violence.

Black Panther Mark Essex burst into a New Orleans hotel, shouting, “I want the whites!” He murdered a young honeymooning couple, hotel guests and staff members, and a number of police officers. Stokely Carmichael praised Essex, saying, “We should study and learn from the actions of Brother Essex. We should understand that Brother Essex carried our struggle to its next quantitative level, the level of science.”

Carmichael had also declared, “I’ve never admired a white man, but the greatest of them, to my mind, was Hitler.”

"Go home and get your guns," Carmichael had urged after Martin Luther King’s death, "When the white man comes he is coming to kill you. I don't want any black blood in the street.”


Either Stokely didn't know "prone" from "Supine" or he liked it doggie style. Maybe back door style.

How about Crack ? Which is it ?

wildswan said...

"But, no, I've never felt merged with the group through singing. It makes me more aware of myself, and not in a good way, but self-conscious because I think I'm bad and because I find it hard to breathe."


Thought experiment. If you were in the crowd singing the Marseillaise in the movie Casablanca, would you sing and would you "merge"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-E2H1ChJM

If the goal is higher than "group unity", a goal such as freedom, then this can result in unity but it doesn't create it. The sociologist could only analyze the result, the group, the degree of unity, etc., not the cause. I'm reading The Age of Anxiety by Joseph Bottoms and this thought came from him.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“I don't know about the bedpan commando...”

Michael, you are such an elitist, how can you be a Trumpist? As for nursing and bedpans, time after time you’ve insulted one of the highest rated professions for decency and ethics, nursing. What gives you the moral authority to disparage the nursing profession? Nurses probably saved your sorry ass from being sued many times over the years. If you want to continue to call me a “bedpan commando”, I’ll start calling you a butcher I’ve dealt with you insulting my profession long enough.

Fair warning.

Michael K said...

What gives you the moral authority to disparage the nursing profession?

Your repeated and obscene comments that show you are no professional.

I don't disparage the profession, only you who are so stupid I doubt your claim of professional status.

Inga...Allie Oop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Inga...Allie Oop said...

Michael, you comport yourself in a way that is unbecoming to the medical profession day after day, week after week, year after year. Your elitism belies your support for the things Trump ran on, supposedly to elevate the working class. Anyone so screwed up as you must’ve been dangerous in the medical field. I haven’t said anything to you that you haven’t deserved. Don’t elevate yourself so blatantly, you’re not as intelligent or decent as you try to make yourself appear. You’re a small man with cellophane skin, who likes to insult others but cannot take a retaliatory insult. You’re a revolting character. I’d steer clear of me if I were you. You’re the kind that gives one a feeling of being polluted by hatefulness and makes these threads an ugly place.

Michael K said...

" I’d steer clear of me if I were you. "

Oh yes. No need to remind me to steer clear of you.

Your elitism belies your support for the things Trump ran on, supposedly to elevate the working class.

You have no idea of why Trump was elected. The "working class" was only part of the coalition.

You think I am an "elitist" because I have education. We have had in this country for 50 years and more a "ruling class" that is so incompetent that they have very nearly wrecked the country.

Here is an example of serious discussion that is untainted by you idiots.

So…what is happening with the Democrats right now? The minority – I think a near-insane group – are rising up as if they think they may be the 25%. They don’t consciously think of it that way, certainly. They have been there simmering for as long as I can remember. The 1960’s left included the Weather Underground and the Chicago Seven, but they didn’t reach 25% of any party. The other liberals, who were not like that but welcomed the more radical brethren and kept their criticism mild, decided to go mainstream instead, and slowly take over one political party and some institutions. The 1960’s split into two groups, the lesser one just simmering, hoping for a break.

You are one of those fools. Do some reading and learn some history.

Then, maybe, we could have a discussion.

Inga...Allie Oop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jon Ericson said...

moral authority lulz.
I’d steer clear of me if I were you. double lulz.

Inga...Allie Oop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jon Ericson said...

*insert stupid comment from the ingster here*

Jon Ericson said...

She's fast!

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“You think I am an "elitist" because I have education.”

Good grief. You think I consider you an elitist because you are educated? I also have an education, my children and husband have/ had advanced degrees and do not behave in an elitist way that disparage professions that you seem to consider beneath yours, as you do. How can you be so dumb? Many people are educated, that doesn’t elevate them above anyone else, doesn’t make them more worthy, doesn’t make them more decent, doesn’t make them more deserving of respect. At your age I’d think you would’ve figured this out already.

It’s not too late to get some humility.

Jon Ericson said...

And stupid.

The Crack Emcee said...

Michael K,

"You think I am an "elitist" because I have education."

Is that, what that weird growth is, on your face - or is that your face?

Jon Ericson said...

Tight Fit - The Lion Sleeps Tonight

Jon Ericson said...

You're lucky we didn't burn you on the Anselmo pederasty case.

The Crack Emcee said...

Frank Zappa was a conservative, as am I, and as I was watching this I couldn't help but thinking, our brand of conservatism is so much better than what we're getting.

Fuck those guys.

cathy said...

Maybe it's odd, I look at so many things and think being part of the group was a way to reach a higher level. From kids on, if we got together we'd make up some game to play and run with it. School, group atmosphere made learning possible. Teachers play as the leader. Church, once I grew up, we hear something personal but influenced by everyone there. Sports, the game takes you along. The bond is why to play.

Tom Grey said...

"collective effervescence" -- first time I've heard this phrase.

I have longed believed in the "human spirit", aka "mob mentality" -- it is the job, and goal, of religion to take this human spirit and the make it holy.

Every sports team fan feels it -- plus the thrill of victory (or the agony of defeat).


It helps to have a couple of beers to get more into the dancing & singing groups, but even country & folk dancing, with music, have elements of this; as does punk rock slam dancing.


Because of Nazis, and Pol Pot, and socialism, I am very concerned with the mob mentality potential for evil against innocents. It's important to recall the effervescence part - feeling good and happy.

https://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/the-intoxicating-effects-of-socialist-benevolence/

Similar to the intoxication of socialist benevolence.

Michael K said...

Inga and Crack, clueless last night I see.

Dr Frank said...

I found this to be quite a clarifying post. Like you, I have never experienced "collective effervescence," though I don't have nearly as cool an explanation of it as you (inocculated by Frank Zappa!) I wrote a thing, though: https://medium.com/@drankf/i-am-spock-6fcc8f324031

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