September 15, 2018

"After this kind of video do you still think Russia would fear of any sanctions?"

The top-rated comment, written a year ago, on this:



Less than half way through, I was on the side of the bears.

78 comments:

Bob Boyd said...

Vodka makes bears more fun.

Mary Beth said...

Feeding wild animals makes them become a nuisance to other people.

rhhardin said...

If you tame a chipmunk, he's tame for everybody.

MountainMan said...

30 year old man looking for ginseng apparently killed by a black bear this week in Cade’s Cove in GSMNP. Rangers still looking for the bear.

Neighbor spotted a 400 lb male standing on his hind legs at the edge of the road about 100 yds from my house yesterday at about 4:30. We’ve had about 4 different ones causing havoc in the neighborhood all summer long. I don’t like having them around.

Wince said...

Is it accurate to say Russians seem to live among the bears, whereas we try to isolate them in preserves?

Given their historical experience and economic circumstances, Russian probably think they don't owe bears that kind of special treatment.

rehajm said...

Bear spray in the golf carts means less room for beverages.

Crimso said...

"After this kind of video do you still think Russia would fear of any sanctions?"

Russia doesn't afraid of anything!!!

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Speaking of RUSSIA
Woodward: No Evidence Of Trump-Russia Collusion, I Searched For Two Years

peacelovewoodstock said...

Reagan warned us about this sh*t

https://youtu.be/NpwdcmjBgNA

Ray Visotski said...

It just goes to show you that Russians are as dumb as Americans. It's worth putting yourself in grave danger if you can capture your impending death on your smart-phone. I never cease to be amazed.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

We’ve had about 4 different ones causing havoc in the neighborhood all summer long. I don’t like having them around.

Then move. I've never understood people who move to the country and then complain about wildlife.

robother said...

"Even in the contest between man and [bear], the outcome is not certain." Words to live by.

Big Mike said...

Rules for staying alive in the wild:

Never get between a hippo and water.

Never get close to a female bear with her cubs.

Don’t go near a cape buffalo without a very high powered rifle.

There are a bunch of others, but of the top ten, only #2, above, applies to animals living outside of Africa.

Michael K said...

I've never understood people who move to the country and then complain about wildlife.

I like wildlife that doesn't eat me.

The other kind, not so much.

My daughter has 5 acres in the Idaho panhandle and there are bears around. She says a neighbor has big dogs that keep them away from the houses. She is still camping in a tent until she builds her cabin and I gave her a .38 special revolver to keep handy.

Some people think handguns are not enough for aggressive bears but there are some good examples of them.

They work pretty well when necessary

Michael The Magnificent said...

In Communist Russia, bear strip you!

Michael The Magnificent said...

She is still camping in a tent until she builds her cabin

A woman after my own heart. Good on her! BTW, winter is coming, you might want to grab some power tools and a generator and give her a hand.

Michael K said...

"winter is coming,"

She is in LA and goes up several times a year to work on the lot. I gave her a chain saw last June. It's heavily wooded.

Her friends who have the next lot have gotten their cabin almost finished as of June. They house sit in the winter for summer residents.

It's right next to Lake Pend Oreille. There are other homes around it. All are on at least 5 acres.

whitney said...

They seem to have a healthy respect and admiration for the bear and a keen sense of fun. And I loved the men singing at the campground

Curious George said...

"MountainMan said...
Neighbor spotted a 400 lb male standing on his hind legs at the edge of the road about 100 yds from my house yesterday at about 4:30. We’ve had about 4 different ones causing havoc in the neighborhood all summer long. I don’t like having them around."

MountainMan? Pffft.

rehajm said...

My daughter has 5 acres in the Idaho panhandle and there are bears around

My wife's from there- as a child when they went huckleberry picking their first line bear defense was banging the coffee can for the berries with a spoon. Seemed weak to me but they blanked the bears in kills and maimes.

Amexpat said...

Russians are even braver with polar bears. Links below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyx75G3it18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w53VxdTE-gc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nouEB4G9Cs

cronus titan said...

Russian history and character is passionate. It gets them in trouble sometimes and ends bloody. One suspects that there are other videos showing the bear winning.

DanTheMan said...

>>I gave her a .38 special revolver to keep handy.

Not enough gun for bear, I wouldn't think. But better than not having one.

cronus titan said...

Turns out American moms have a lot in common with Russians:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdyproLcc70

narciso said...

Now how would russia react:



https://babalublog.com/2018/09/15/oas-secretary-general-considering-military-intervention-in-venezuela-to-topple-dictatorship/

tim in vermont said...

I once went fishing in Alaska with a guide and he gave my wife and I yellow whistles, "in case of a bear," he said. He was wearing a revolver. He said that there were some brown bears around, he had seen their scat. I asked him how he knew that the scat was from brown bears. He said "by the yellow whistles in it."

cronus titan said...

As usual, Gary Larsen was ahead of his time. This Far Side cartoon is apt:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/334181234833570214/

mockturtle said...

Russian morons are very much like American morons.

mockturtle said...

>>I gave her a .38 special revolver to keep handy.

Not enough gun for bear, I wouldn't think. But better than not having one.


It would come in handy to shoot yourself as the bear was gnawing your leg off.

gilbar said...

hmmm, judging COMPLETELY on This Video Alone; russian bears seem MUCH smaller than american bears. Not the cubs, the mama bears with the cubs. If our bears were that small, i'd feel different about them.

The Crack Emcee said...

"Less than half way through, I was on the side of the bears."

I'm always on the side of the bears.

DanTheMan said...


As Americans, we have a constitutional right to arm bears.

Howard said...

They don't have Grizzly's. Dad worked summers building trail in Yellowstone. Camping there in the late 60's black bears would walk into camp every day. Dad would raise his arms up and start growling while walking slowly toward the bear and they skedaddled.

Michael K said...


>>I gave her a .38 special revolver to keep handy.

Not enough gun for bear, I wouldn't think. But better than not having one.


I was thinking of giving her a .44 magnum but I don't think she could handle it.

If you looked at those bear and pistol stories, several involved a 9 mm which is less powerful than .38 special.

I just hope she never has to use it. She was over last weekend and were going to go to the range but too many other things to do.

Howard said...

Blogger Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Speaking of RUSSIA
Woodward: No Evidence Of Trump-Russia Collusion, I Searched For Two Years


I thought you people said Woodward was a lying, cheating deep state tool...

Like I have said from beginning: Nothingburger

The reporter then added that he believes Mueller likely has "something" on Trump.

"We're going to see what Mueller has, and Dowd may be right," Woodward said. "He has something that Dowd and the president don't know about, a secret witness or somebody who has changed their testimony. As you know, that often happens, and that can break open or turn a case."

MountainMan said...

"Then move. I've never understood people who move to the country and then complain about wildlife."

I live in town, not up in the mountains. I live in a 50 year old neighborhood with a couple of hundred houses and country club. Big manufacturing plants all around. 25 years ago you had to go up in the mountains to find a bear and sightings were rare. Now, the bear population is exploding and they are boldly coming into town and everyone thinks it's cool; I don't, I have had experience with them before and they are a dangerous and destructive nuisance. Even at our Marriott hotel a cub was wandering around the front entrance recently trying to get in and at the big chemical plant upriver one was found in the rail yard asleep under a rail car that was about to be moved. They weren't sure how he got in.

I could give up my house here and move to my home near Atlanta, but they are there, too.

Howard said...

Every situation in life is explained in Dr. Strangelove. The philosophy of Buck:

The Ruskie talks big but frankly we think he's short of know-how. I mean, you just can't expect a bunch of ignorant peons to understand a machine like our boys.... and that's not meant as an insult Mr Ambassador, I mean you take your average Ruskie we all know how much guts he's got. Hell, look at all them Nazi's killed and they still wouldn't quit.

rehajm said...

I was thinking of giving her a .44 magnum but I don't think she could handle it.

Yeah, this comes up all the time in bear country. I was just out in MT with a guide, Army veteran, horseback in Afghanistan. Killed lots of bad guys...and he's relating the story of killing a Grizzly. Had to return to recover a ram shot the previous day with another SF vet. So two highly trained guys with a 10mm Glock and a .375 Ruger. Knowing and prepared as they approached the ram's location, sure enough they're charged by Grizz. They managed to get 3-4 shots on him from the 10mm to slow him down just enough to get off two shots from the Ruger. Still the bear nearly overtook them. The moral I took I away is if these two guys together have trouble when they're prepared it prolly doesn't matter what I'm carrying, but I'd want to get as many shots off as I could...

buwaya said...

.38 special is quite a lot less powerful than 9mm. Its in between .380 and 9mm.
I carried and shot a .38 (my dads Detective Special) for years, and have shot 9mm a fair bit.

.38 is a very comfortable cartridge for target shooting, as the original rather hefty revolvers it was made for are heavy enough to dampen recoil. The newer tiny aluminum revolvers I don't know about. I do dislike the tiny concealable 9mm's, the ones I've tried (M&P Shield and a Kahr) are nasty to shoot.

I suggest avoiding bears.

Michael K said...

Howard is keeping hope alive for the left.

The comparison of .38 special vs 9mm Luger shows the 9mm has higher velocity.

I think either would be similar in self defense with bears.

A .357 would be better but, again, I wonder if she could handle it.

Big Mike said...

Oh dear. Some almost right information out there.

There are two 9mm cartridges. In the United States the 9mm x 17mm is called the .380, and it is generally regarded as being too weak to stop a man, much less a bear, unless you hit your assailant in a vital place (i.e., "shot placement"). In Europe it is called the "9mm short," or "9mm Kurz" or "9mm Corto" in German and Italian, respectively.

The 9mm x 19mm is a much heavier hitter than the 9mm Short, and is a man-stopper but probably not a bear stopper. Not unless you have a lucky hit. It is also called the "9mm Luger" and the "9mm Parabelum" cartridge.

buwaya is right; the .38 special is intermediate between the 9mm in hitting power. The .38 +P feels like it's a little stronger than a 9mm Luger round, but I'd need to see ballistics tables to be certain.

The .45 Long Colt was designed to be used by cavalry in the Old West and is supposed to be strong enough to kill a horse. Experienced woodsmen claim that neither it nor the .45 ACP created for the Colt Model 1911 (the semiautomatic handgun used by the US Army in World Wars I and II, and in Vietnam) can penetrate far enough into a bear to hit a vital organ if you are in a tight situation.

That leaves the heavy cartridges: 10mm for semiautomatic, .357 magnum and .44 magnum. A friend who used to live in Alaska took a .357 with him when he went fishing in the woods. He had trouble with recoil control on the .44 and the .10mm was still in development when he lived up there. He also said that if a bear wanted any or all of the fish he caught, the bear was welcome to them.

He also said that he'd rather have a revolver than a semiautomatic because revolvers were more reliable and did not jam. I know that Glock aficionados swear that Glocks never jam, but I'm not so sure there's a semiautomatic made that doesn't jam -- just guns that haven't jammed yet. I do know, from experience, that if a cartridge does not fire in a revolver, that simply pulling the trigger again will fire the cartridge in the next cylinder; with semiautomatics you'd have to cycle the action.

If I was hiking in bear country I'd rather have a lever action (Winchester or Marlin) lever action rifle chambered in a heavy cartridge like the .44 magnum or .500 S&W Magnum.

That friend of mine also claimed that it was possible to shoot a charging bear in the head and not kill it -- the skull is thick and flat so the bullet can bounce off. He'd aim for the shoulder; break its arm to break its charge and then finish off the crippled bear. Don't know if that's true, but sounds plausible.

Good luck and stay safe.

This is all second hand. I've never had to face a bear in the wild. I like it that way.

Oso Negro said...

Once I had to stand between my family and the bear and fight him off with boulders. Once. I never go out again without substantial armament.

Bruce Hayden said...

“My daughter has 5 acres in the Idaho panhandle and there are bears around. She says a neighbor has big dogs that keep them away from the houses. She is still camping in a tent until she builds her cabin and I gave her a .38 special revolver to keep handy.”

Biggest problem is probably the ammunition. Guy just recently, on the CO/NM border, who had inherited his father’s bear hunting business from his father, was getting ready for the season, and was working his dogs out to get the in shape. They caught the scent of a black bear and took off after him. He followed, and then his family followed him. Turned out to be large (maybe 400 lbs). Had his 10 mm Glock 20, and pulled it out, as the bear turned and attacked. Only had less than a dozen rounds in the magazine, and ended up shooting most of them, in maybe 20 seconds. Last one was fatal. They had to cut the bear’s head off to get his jaws out of the guy’s calf muscle. He ended up being airlifted to Albuquerque, despite him normally refusing to fly in choppers (the happy juice that the medic gave him apparently changed his mind)(from a guy who hunts black bear for a living). The key though is that he barely survived, despite using probably the predominant bear semiautomatic handgun (that 10 mm Glock 20). His likely problem? It was essentially loaded with top of the line JHP ammunition, instead of the hard cast that he likely would have been carrying during bear hunting season. JHP is essentially designed for defense against humans, and doesn’t penetrate well in bears, and specifically brown bear, or, here, a large black bear. I noted the other day that Buffalo Bore now carries solid cast in 9mm, which I will probably buy this winter, along with some 10 mm (several of us are putting together an order because shipping is so outrageous for small quantities).

Bruce Hayden said...

Dr K - next time you visit your daughter by Pend Orielle, let me know, and maybe we can hook up. Was through Sandpoint Tues and Wed to/from spending the night with a friend down in Bayview, at the bottom of the lake (the guy I am putting that order together with for Buffalo Bore ammo). Make it through that area probably at least once a month during the half a year we spend in MT (the closest (by time) Walmart, Home Depot, North 40 and Dollar Store, to us here, are in Ponderay, just north of Sandpoint).

Christopher said...

As far as bear country is concerned, I'd think a .38 special would be worse than nothing, providing a false sense of even having a small fighting chance against a bear.

I'm not an outdoorsman really but based in what I've read, the absolute minimum I'd take would be a .357. While the recoil is non-fun, a decent field-sized .357 with a 6-inch barrel will perhaps tame just enough of it to make it usable for her.

n.n said...

Babies. A perceived cuteness factor, emotion, another's life, another's capital, green lawns, and scrambled eggs.

Bruce Hayden said...

Why live in an area with bears? Because there is something there that soothes the soul. We have deer and turkey in the yard, and my partner feeds the deer by hand. There is something very basic to see the yearly cycle of life, the babies being born, and growing up before your eyes. We get a doe with one or two young every year hanging out in the front yard. What is fun is when you first see the young, they then disappear, their mother trying to get your attention, and finding where she had hidden the young one. Never touch, of course. Large elk herd maybe 5 miles west, and the bighorn sheep come down to the river in a mile 10 stretch of the highway starting 5 miles east of town. Yesterday, returning from the vet in the next town east, guy in an oncoming car was flashing his lights. So, I started slowing down, and it turns out there was a group of better than a half dozen bighorn sheep on their way to the water, right in the middle of the road. They had waited for the gaggle of cars going the other way, started crossing, and I almost got one or two adolescent males. Even have moose, and a Bison preserve at the end of the county. But with so much prey, we also have all their natural predators, with black bear and fox in the neighborhood, coyotes around the farms, and brown bear and mountain lions on high up. Wolves have pushed into the county too, but are rare enough that they aren’t really seen much.

Back to the black bear in the neighbor - you mostly just take precautions so that they aren’t tempted, and you will rarely see them. At least here, so close to town. We throw out our table scraps, but separate the meat and high sugar foods from the rest, putting it a couple blocks away. And that means that the deer get most of the stuff we throw out, and don’t see the bears that like meat and high sugar foods, but aren’t really that interested in lettuce and the like. And have bear proof (or at least bear resistant) screen doors.

I grew up in a similar ecology - a mix of Ponderosa pine, spruce, and fir. My grandparents had a girls camp in such, and those were some of my earliest memories. Later, I lived in such, west of Denver in the foothills, when my kid was little, and my parents (when alive) and two brothers live In such. That may be why I find it so comforting. We also saw it when we visited Flagstaff in August. But what sets NW MT and N ID apart is that the trees are much taller, and closer together (explorer David Thompson commented on this 200 years ago when he came through here and built a fur trading post). Same trees, but almost twice as tall. My bet is the availability of water that allows that growth. Within 50 miles of us here are three major tributaries of the Columbia, apparently the largest river on the west coast of N America. Guy across the street wants to cut down some of the trees on his lot, and the one next to it, because if the Ponderosa pine needles that inevitably collect in large quantities on his roof. Sorry, we own that lot now, and those massive trees are part of our view. The boss (my partner) has spoken. And it isn’t that bad cleaning them every year - I have a climbing harness with some Jumar ascenders. Get a rope secured on both sides of the house, hook into it, and if you slip, you won’t go anywhere. Maybe once a year, and 3-4 trips to the dump a year with a truck full of needles from the yard.

gilbar said...

as a non gun owner, i'd say that problem with a large gun (particularly for someone not expert at it) is that your odds of hitting the bear would go Way down with the larger gun. I a bear charged, I'm sure i'd be too scared to make my first shot hit, and the recoil would freak me out so much that i'd probably not get a second. A smaller bullet that hits a bear would probably be better than a large bullet that misses. Of course just the sound of the gun might discourage the bear. There's a lot to be said for bear spray; much harder to miss with a spray, not that it would do much to a determined bear .

Rusty said...

The video showed that Russians are very very stupid. It also shows that Russians are very very lucky.
As Rusty has mentioned on more than one occaision, the second you step ofr the pavement and into the folliage you are prey.
Dress accordingly.

Bruce Hayden said...

Some people fault those who carry handguns instead of rifles in bear country. But rifles are cumbersome, so you aren’t going to carry them 24/7. No doubt that that bear hunting guide who ended up getting mauled, carries a rifle when guiding hunters trying to take a bear. But he appears to carry a 10 mm Glock 20 as a backup. Why 10 mm? Roughly the same energy as a .45, but much faster, and with a smaller cross section, which allows 10 mm bullets to penetrate much better. With humans, you probably want as big of a hole as you can make. In a bear, you want the deepest hole. JHP are, of course, designed to mushroom, creating bigger, not deeper holes. FMJ penetrates better, and solid cast penetrates even better. Depleted uranium would probably penetrate even better, but there are issues there... In particular, even in the biggest handguns, JHP will probably not penetrate the thick skulls of larger bears, or maybe even through all the fat to a vital organ. My problem with a large caliber revolver (shooting solid cast) is that the recoil is such, at least for me, that getting the second, and subsequent, shots on target is problematic. That friend in Bayview carries a titanium framed .44 mag as his bear gun. 5 rounds out of that is worse, for me, on my wrists than maybe 200 rounds of 9 mm. Besides, revolvers carry 5-6 rounds. That Glock 20 carried by that bear hunting guide normally has 15 round magazines, and he shot better than 10 rounds into the bear before killing it.

Why not bear spray? After all, studies show it more effective than a handgun? Because the studies are biased - the incidents of using spray were mostly against curious bears. Most of the gun usage incidents were against charging bears. Big difference. Those Russian bears were mostly, if not all, curious bears, not charging bears. I have bear spray in the house, and in the truck, but I also have firearms for the rare occasion when a bear isn’t merely curious, but sees me as dinner or a threat (to their cubs), etc.

Michael said...

Michael K
Consider The Judge. Holds 45 or 410 bore. Or both. Or the Govenor which is more expensive but holds the same ammo.

Bruce Hayden said...

You wonder why the Russians love Putin enough to keep him in power, and then you see those Russians taunting those bears in that video, and you understand. No doubt, they loved the photoshop of Putin, bare chested, riding that bear. I think that we would call most of those Russians in the video stupidly brave. Or, maybe just drunk on too much vodka. For them, it probably doesn’t make a difference.

Clyde said...

I liked the one near the end where the bear got in the truck bed and stole the fish. Other than that, all I can say is that backwoods Russia looks like it would make even the most impoverished places in America look good. And yes, there had to be a lot of vodka involved in those clips.

Michael K said...

My daughter lives in Santa Monica most of the year. (Don't tell Howard who seems fixed on my family)

Her trips to Idaho are a couple of two weeks sessions to work on the land.

I could see her and her boyfriend, who is a very good sculptor, doing something like a SandPoint art gallery or such.

I think that is a way off. I agree the .38 special is probably not enough but she is lightly built and I doubt she could handle even a .357.

We will probably be up there next summer for a week. We made the mistake of renting a motorhome since we had not been to the lot before.

Next summer we will stay in a hotel in SandPoint. When the time comes, I will try to get contact before we go.

Anonymous said...

Two things: I have ben told and I believe that the weapon of choice is a 12GA Auto shotgun with 00 buck. Shoot for the head. Pretty hard to hit anything beyond 10 feet with any kind of short arm when your adrenalin is at its peak. Shotgun is point and shoot with a much better chance of hitting a moving target than any short arm or even a large caliber rifle. What is the diameter of the pattern of a .357? That's right, about 9 mm. What's the pattern of a shotgun at the muzzle? 18.53 mm (if I am reading the table correctly) and opening rapidly from there. I have seen a Caribou dropped in its tracks with 00 buck at 20 yards so I would be( and was) very comfortable carrying a 12 GA with 5 00 buck shells and a Cyl. choke. A lot more so than with my .45 ACP that I would have to hit just the right spot. Of course the best course is stay away from the bears. @Michael K. Even a 20GA auto with 00 Buck is probably a better solution for your daughter.

Second: Two guys are out in bear country and one of them is lacing on a pair of running shoes instead of boots. The other guy says " What are you doing that for? You can't outrun a bear?" His buddy says "You're right, but I can outrun you!" An old chestnut.

Bruce Hayden said...

@Dr K - let me know when you are visiting. For one thing, we have a pretty good idea of the good and bad about the hotels in Sandpoint, having stayed in most of them.

Big Mike said...

There's a lot to be said for bear spray; much harder to miss with a spray, not that it would do much to a determined bear .

There is, but if the bear is charging you with a stiff wind at its back then the spray could wind up incapacitating you.

@Michael K., for whatever reason I missed your 9:21 comment and its two links. I think that if the daughter who lives in a tent in the deep woods is not the same daughter who works for the FBI, then a revolver is the right thing to have. You aren't worried about concealment, good revolver holsters are not all that expensive, and if she isn't the FBI daughter then she probably lacks both the training and skill to handle a semiautomatic reliably. Two mistakes that beginners make are (1) they tend to cross the thumb of their support hand across the back of the dominant hand, which leads to jams and badly cut thumbs; and (2) they may lack the hand strength to prevent the gun from rocking back in their grip, which is called "limp wristing" and leads to jams with semiautomatics. A jammed gun might as well be a misshapen hammer for all the good it does you in a defensive situation. OTOH, your FBI trained daughter might help out her sister by training her how to use a gun -- 9 mm or 10 mm semiautomatic or .357 or .44 magnum revolver -- safely and reliably.

I read the account of the 37 bear versus human interactions. I note that 9mm with full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets does work, which I find surprising; I would not have expected that. As to the other calibers listed in the article, I have no experience with .41 magnum or .40 semiautomatic so cannot comment. I will say that you do need practice to handle the recoil from a .44 magnum or even a .357 magnum, but a relatively heavy gun helps to absorb recoil. I note that there is anecdotal evidence for two instances where the human survived a bear attack using a .38 Special, but the author of the article had no ability to verify the stories.

One other thing. I hope your daughter is post-menopausal. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence of bears attacking women during their menstrual periods.

Big Mike said...

@Michael K., also consider a long gun. A Rossi R92 is a lightweight (6.5 pounds) replica of the famous Winchester Model 1892, and if purchased used and chambered in .44 magnum it should go for $400 or thereabouts. I imagine that a .44 magnum coming out of a 16" or 20" barrel will hit a bear (or mountain lion or two legged predator) pretty damned hard. You do have to keep it with you, though. Anyone who has seen a western movie will know how to load and operate it. Just make sure you put the wooden end tight against your shoulder and point the hollow round end at what you plan to shoot.

Even lighter would be an AR chambered in .300 Blackout, which hits about as hard as a .30-30 while being much lighter to carry. I am very fond of the .300 Blackout cartridge, even though I don't hunt.

Anonymous said...

@ Michael K Benelli makes a nice tactical shotgun that might suit your daughter. https://www.benelliusa.com/m2-tactical-shotgun

In fact Benelli makes a whole line of tactical shotguns you might look into.

Benellis with the inertial auto system are a lot lighter than comparable shotguns. I see that the USMC uses the M4.

Anonymous said...

Of course in all these hypothetical situations we are talking about a charging bear. Keep that in mind when you are thinking about shot placement. If you or the bear can retreat that is always the best solution.

Anonymous said...

One last thing, particularly applicable to women ( or fashionable guys). The choice of a weapon in bear country is not a fashion decision, it is not a fashion accessory. If you are in bear country you should always be armed with the weapon you believe will be most effective. There is no leaving it in camp because you're just going to take a crap.

Michael K said...

I think that if the daughter who lives in a tent in the deep woods is not the same daughter who works for the FBI, then a revolver is the right thing to have.

Different daughters. The FBI daughter would not be caught dead in the woods, so to speak.

This is the middle daughter and she has no experience with guns. I gave her a Ruger .22 when she was 13 but I doubt she has fired it five times. We will be over there next weekend and might get the chance to spend a half hour at the indoor range. Of course, it is California and guns are a huge problem. I gave her the .38 the last time we were over there and she can't carry it on a plane so it will have to be over there.

The FBI daughter has a 10 mm Glock.

We might have to think about a tactical shotgun.

Michael K said...

I looked at that Benelli shotgun and those things are $1400. I can find one for $200.

First, we let her shoot the .38 special and the 9mm, of which I have a couple.

Big Mike said...

@Michael K., I imagine that a 10mm Glock would be effective against a grizzly. But IMHO a beginner should use a revolver, and .38 Special isn't going to be enough to save her life if it needs saving.

If you're going to consider a tactical shotgun, then consider a Stoeger coach gun. This is a 20" barreled 12 gauge side by side (or "double barreled") shotgun. It's much cheaper, and generally one can get one used from somebody in "cowboy action shooting" (aka Single Action Shooting Society) who has quit the sport or decided to go with a Winchester Model 1897 pump instead. Stoegers are well made and sturdy, but relatively inexpensive (esp. used). Add a recoil pad from Midway, and you're good to go, even if slight of frame.

Cheaper yet, buy a used pump shotgun like the Remington 870 and have a gunsmith shorten the barrel to 18 1/2 inches or just longer than the magazine, whichever is longer. (18" is the federal legal minimum and the infamous Ruby Ridge "incident" occurred when ATF agents tried to entrap Randy Weaver by having him shorten the barrel of a shotgun to less than 18".) If concerned that 12 gauge is too much gun for her, she can get a 16 or a 20 gauge.

And if she has to fend off a human predator, 20 is as good as 12 -- either one will look like a howitzer to whomever it is pointed at.

If she's flying out to Idaho then I imagine her plane lands at an airport in a town with multiple gunsmiths. They probably have one or more used shotguns for sale and can shorten the barrel (and reinstall the sights).

Michael K said...

She drove and will probably do so again as she needs access to the lot which is 12 miles from Sand Point.

Last June she drove back with a metal sheep that we bought to add to our little flock of metal sheep in the front yard here.

There is a Stevens 12 pump with a pistol grip for $250.

Maybe both ?

BUMBLE BEE said...

Hey Doc, look into http://www.magnaport.com/ Tames everything... rifles, shotguns and handguns. Doesn't change the weapon appreciably.

Big Mike said...

Very good prices on those tactical shotguns. I wasn't aware that they'd gotten so cheap.

Big Mike said...

@Michael K., but do have her check out whether the stock is short enough so she can grip the trigger comfortably while the stock is tight on her shoulder (called length of pull). If she's petite then she might need an adjustable stock. Mossberg makes a tactical shotgun in 12 gauge and 20 gauge that has an adjustable stock, as well as a "youth" 500 that has a shorter stock.

Michael K said...

If she's petite then she might need an adjustable stock.

She's almost 6 feet tall but only 125 pounds.

And gorgeous but I might be prejudiced.

Big Mike said...

I might be prejudiced.

Your little girls always gonna be your little girls.

Rusty said...

Doc. Go to a pawn shop and get a used Remington 870. They're ubiquitous and parts can be found anywhere.Cut the barrel down to 18 1/2 inches. Or buy a rifled barrel and use saboted slugs.
I wish her luck. Idaho is beautiful.

Bruce Hayden said...

I am not a real fan of shotguns for bears. The problem, as I suggested above, is penetration. When we had mountain lions through the property when my kid was young, a shotgun was my preferred defensive weapon, 12 gauge with 00 Buck, w/an 18 inch barrel. But they are thin skinned and are relatively fragile esp compared with bears and their thick skulls and rolls of fat. If a 400 lb black bear can essentially shrug off 10 rounds of 10 mm JHP, then what are they going to do with 8 .33 caliber (roughly 7 mm) pellets? Sure, you could switch to slugs, but they have the same problem as .45 versus 10 mm - too big to effective penetrate. For a given recoil, I would suggest that a rifle firing normal hunting rounds would be more effective.

Anonymous said...

@ Michael K The idea behind the shotgun is to, perhaps, blind the bear or even perhaps penetrate to the brain through the eyes. Remember we are talking about a charging bear not one that just happens to be in the vicinity. Much as I admire big Mike and Bruce Hayden they are advocating weapons that must be aimed or at the very least used by someone who is familiar, comfortable and can remain in a two handed combat stance which is the only way one would have a chance in hell of hitting a moving bear. Though the pellets are small, as Bruce says (equivalent to a .38 slug), there are 8 in each shell so that while the bear is approaching you you will be able to fire 40 pellets of .38 Caliber size into its head and eyes. No fighting recoil or trying to reestablish sight picture just point the shotgun at the bear's head and pull the trigger until you or the bear is down. The only alternative I would try is an AR-15 or equivalent with full auto - which isn't legal.

If you think $1400 is too much to pay for a reliable weapon for your daughter then you're not the guy I thought you were. You can probably find a used one. Any reliable used automatic by Remington, Bennelli or any other reliable manufacturer will work. Shortening the barrel is a good idea.

The other least expensive option is the 870 that Rusty recommended. The only drawback there is that it is a pump gun and unless you practice so the pump action becomes automatic to you there's a good possibility that you will forget to pump after the first round. I have been using pump shotguns for 50 years and I find that if I have been using a double and haven't used a pump for a while I forget to pump. Pumping also takes you off your target momentarily unlike an automatic.

I will say once again we are talking a life and death situation when you need the weapon. It is not a fashion accessory. Whatever you decide on, make sure that your daughter burns through several boxes of ammo to get comfortable with the weapon.

When I was in Viet Nam I was always in a compound of some kind. I finally decided that my personal weapon would be a 12 GA "riot" or "trench" gun because if we were ever overrun I wanted to be able to point and shoot and know that there was a high probability that I would hit what I was pointing at, figuring there were no second chances. I did not have that level of confidence in my .45.

Anonymous said...

equivalent to a .32 slug not .38.

Michael K said...

If you think $1400 is too much to pay for a reliable weapon for your daughter then you're not the guy I thought you were.

Why is the $250 one not enough ?

She is unlikely to ever use it and I do agree about OO buckshot.

Big Mike said...

I find myself in agreement with what Khesahn wrote (including his correction that 00 buck is equivalent to .32 caliber).

But here’s the thing. The problem as I see it, is that a 12 gauge shotgun can kick pretty hard and is a bit heavy to lug around. A gun that gets left in the tent is pretty useless if you’re taking a whiz and a grizzly cub wanders over, with an angry mother right behind it. Plus there are plenty of “gun fails” videos on YouTube showing thin girls knocked on their butts shooting a 12 gauge or other big gun. A handgun takes regular practice to acquire the sight picture rapidly and hit what you aim at. But you can get used to carrying it everywhere, to the point where not having it on you registers about the same as leaving home without your wallet in your pocket (or your purse, for women). Rifles have the same “leave behind” risk as shotguns, but a lever gun with 10 in the tube and one in the chamber can put a lot of lead in a charging bear, and an AR chambered in a hunting cartridge* can give you 20 or 30 chances to hit something vital. But a rifle in the tent is not as useful as a handgun holstered on your belt when Momma thinks you’re a risk to her cubs or Daddy is in the mood for protein and, why there you are!

If it was me in that tent I’d have an AR in .300 Blackout or .308, and a .357 in a shoulder holster or belt holster. But in some of the forms of shooting competition where I compete you have to draw your handgun from a holster and hit your target very quickly, so I would be used to it if it was my life on the line.

Whatever you decide, Michael K., consider ordering “charging bear” targets and take her to a range with her choice of defense weapon, to get her used to shooting at bears and not circles. And try to get her FBI sister to work with her to get stance and grip correct to where it is automatic.
________
* Meaning 6.5 Creedmore or .300 Blackout or .308 Winchester. Absolutely not .223!

bonkti said...

Hold my wodka

phantommut said...

"There's a Mr. Darwin on the line for you."