August 2, 2018

"There’s a clinical name for what Apathetic Idealist and many of us are feeling: it’s called compassion fatigue."

"Psychologist Charles Figley defines compassion fatigue as 'a state of exhaustion and dysfunction, biologically, physiologically and emotionally, as a result of prolonged exposure to compassion stress.' Symptoms include behavioural changes (becoming easily startled, a reduced ability to remain objective), physical changes (exhaustion, anxiety and cardiac symptoms) and emotional changes (numbness, depression, 'decreased sense of purpose').... There are those who argue, following Kant, that a subjective experience of empathy should not be required for moral action, and those who go further, contending that empathy actually gets in the way of morality. But the more commonly held view today seems to be that empathy is vitally necessary, not just for direct human interaction, but as a spur to solve the world’s most pressing problems. Why would we come to the aid of people who are suffering, the thinking goes, if we don’t on some level feel their suffering, too?"

From "Is compassion fatigue inevitable in an age of 24-hour news?/We have never been more aware of the appalling events that occur around the world every day. But in the face of so much horror, is there a danger that we become numb to the headlines – and does it matter if we do?" by Elisa Gabbert in The Guardian.

I don't see why we should reject the Kantian idea just because it's a "more commonly held view today... that empathy is vitally necessary." In fact, the constant pressure to feel feel feel, coming at us all the time, is making this dependency on empathy more and more of a problem. People get tired. They get numb. Then what?

I'm thinking that some people will just turn away. I know, I only read the news (and look at photographs). I cannot tolerate the grinding music, the flashing, swirling graphics, and the human yelling and warning and worrying that is news television.

Other people will keep watching as if it's something like a movie — loaded with violence and conspiracies and endlessly unfolding anxiety. You're actually enjoying it. You're taking it. Consuming it. And who knows what effect this has on your soul? But why would it amount to any significant moral behavior from you? At best, you'll toddle over to the polls and check the box that seems to advance the plot.

171 comments:

Larry J said...

I've heard of compassion fatigue. Despite many things being better than ever, there's still a lot of misery in the world. The news media loves covering the misery because it can be good for ratings. Still, at some people, people can't take any more. I think compassion fatique may be related to outrage fatigue. Every day, the media dials up their outrage against Trump to 13 (they started at 11 and kept going). When the outrage de jour fails to get traction, the move on to the next outrage.

Michael K said...

It's also called "I don't give a fuck ism."

Ken B said...

Morality is not a logical system. It is a system of responses mediated by emotions. There are at least two different kinds of morality, near and far. There is no reason to suppose near and far morality can be logically reconciled. Television and the internet turn far events into near ones. This conflates near and far morality, I think unhelpfully. (So might travel; travel might narrow the mind by encouraging this conflation. You are welcome Althouse).

Sebastian said...

Progs' solution to compassion fatigue is to force others to show compassion. Of coercion they never tire.

rhhardin said...

Empathy works in neighborhood-sized things. Elsewhere it's entertainment, empty exercising the empathy glands that evolution provided for neighborhoods.

"Sorry about your father." That's not literally even sincere, but is a coded extension of a grace period from other social obligations, like a work project or laughing at the same repeated jokes. That's of some use to the guy. Real empathy, but fake sorrow. Only in a neighborhood, where the guy actually get something from you.

tcrosse said...

Je-m'en-foutisme.
The Germans have a word for it.

traditionalguy said...

Empathy is a luxury of the leisure class living in peace and prosperity. So it is a companion of boredom.

Having a purpose in life means fighting to survive or to protect innocents, but the fight itself requires a focused, cold, analytical aggression until its over. Then there is time for empathy and other games.

rhhardin said...

Morality is not a logical system. It is a system of responses mediated by emotions.

So if you return a duplicated paycheck it's because you're feeling emotions.

Fernandinande said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fernandinande said...

"Is compassion fatigue inevitable in an age of 24-hour news?"

Yes! All your compassion are belong to us.

"We have never been more aware of the appalling events that occur around the world every day."

Oh noes!

"But in the face of so much horror, is there a danger that we become numb to the headlines – and does it matter if we do?"

Danger! Danger Will Robertson!

"by Elisa Gabbert in The Guardian"

Providing us with more verbiage that she hope's we'll worry about.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

I’m with Althouse: the cacophony repels me. I have to turn down the radio when commercials come on that have several layers of music/talk/effects too. Whatever happened to the simple perfection of a human voice unsullied by raucous overproduction? No wonder they’ve lost audience. The over-noising of media seems like an attempt to attract a young impatient audience, which are the least likely to give a crap about the “news” anyway. Weird.

Ken B said...

Rhhardin
Yes. What do YOU think lies behind human actions?
The irony is, you agree with me, when you say true empathy is for “neighborhoods “. That's near. Some random guy on the net or a village in another country are far. Your responses, and your obligations, differ.

Henry said...

The Zen teacher Charlotte Joko Beck wrote: In spiritual maturity, the opposite of injustice is not justice, but compassion.

But it is important to note that the source of this compassion is the practice of inner understanding and the target of this compassion are the people in one's actual life, as it is actually is lived.

rhhardin said...

You return the duplicated paycheck because it's a mistake.

Tommy Duncan said...

The news is contrived to seek our empathy in exaggerated ways. We see through the nonsense and become immune to the endless news stories seeking our sympathy. When you see a story about alien children in cages your BS meter goes off.

rhhardin said...

There's actually a risk in returning a duplicated paycheck. It might wind up on your 1099 anyway, if the company doesn't back out of the mistake correctly.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I have empathy for those who deserve it. Same thing with compassion to a lesser degree.

However, I also have the ability to recognize when I can actually exercise myself to accomplish anything about those feelings.

Just sitting around "feeling" and not being effective is about as useful as hitting yourself on the head with a hammer because you have compassion for people who have migraines.

Go ahead and "feel their pain" and then move on to something constructive. Stop "feeling" and do something or STFU. All the tear jerking stories in the world aren't going to make me "feel" something that I don't feel.

I also don't feel any guilt for anything that I am not personally responsible. So the media is wasting their time trying to play that card for slavery etc.

For the record...I am a solid INTJ on the Myer Briggs scale. :-D

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

And yet most (but, yes, not all) people I know continue the daily struggle to be decent human beings. When the culture is rotten yet most of the people within the culture are good, you can’t help wondering about who are the fuckers setting the agenda. And why, in a sane world, they couldn’t just be stood against a wall somewhere. Too primal, I know, but history teaches us that it always ends that way, no matter how much tinsel we hand on it in the interim.

Sydney said...

My avatar is a little hard to see, but it's a painting called Radio Propaganda, from the Syracuse University art museum. It's a bunch of radio heads yelling into megaphones. When I saw that painting I thought of today's television news. They are constantly in hysterics. I also don't watch television news or listen to radio news any longer. I just read the news.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

Hang, dammit.

Tommy Duncan said...

"Is compassion fatigue inevitable in an age of 24-hour news?"

The problem, in part, is the need to fill 24 hours of air time. That results in petty nonsense and fake news.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Ken B asked Rhhardin

What do YOU think lies behind human actions?

Not answering for Rhhardin but.....in everyday activities....logic, self interest, quo bono?

Jumping into a raging river to save a child. Depends.

joshbraid said...

I'm confused by these two statements

I don't see why we should reject the Kantian idea just because it's a "more commonly held view today... that empathy is vitally necessary."

because you also wrote

"There are those who argue, following Kant, that a subjective experience of empathy should not be required for moral action"

Fernandinande said...

Compassion Fatigue Killer

I can't seem to face up to the facts
I'm in a state of exhaustion and dysfunction
I can't sleep as a result of prolonged exposure to compassion stress
Don't touch me I'm easily startled and not objective
Compassion Fatigue Killer
Qu'est-ce que c'est
Fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-far better

I hate people when they have a sense of purpose
Compassion Fatigue Killer
Qu'est-ce que c'est
Fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-far better

Fernandinande said...

I'm failing to exhibit compassion for those with compassion fatigue.

Wince said...

"We could find that we're all alone
In the dream of the proud"

I'm curious about David Gilmore's use of the words "we" and "proud" here.

On the Turning Away.

On the turning away
From the pale and downtrodden
And the words they say
Which we won't understand

"Don't accept that what's happening
Is just a case of others' suffering
Or you'll find that you're joining in
The turning away"

It's a sin that somehow
Light is changing to shadow
And casting it's shroud
Over all we have known

Unaware how the ranks have grown
Driven on by a heart of stone
We could find that we're all alone
In the dream of the proud

Fernandinande said...

Dust Bunny Queen said...
quo bono?


Cher's old boyfriend?

Jumping into a raging river to save a child. Depends.

"What is it that makes a complete stranger dive into an icy river to save
a solid gold baby? Maybe we'll never know." -- Handey

CWJ said...

"At best, you'll toddle over to the polls and check the box that seems to advance the plot."

Ain't that the truth. It's one reason polititians of all stripes, but most especially Democrats, try to forefront first world problems rather than tackle the mundane basics of solvent government.

CWJ said...

Politicians not polititians.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

LOL

Doh....Qui Bono. derf derf
Not enough coffee yet.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Fernandistein said...

I'm failing to exhibit compassion for those with compassion fatigue.

I'm succeeding in not exhibiting compassion for those with compassion fatigue. But then, I'm a glass-half-full kinda guy.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Pres Trump doesn't have compassion fatigue. (But he did say in his speech yesterday that now he knows everybody in Washington, which is clearly a lie!)

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/trump-talks-prison-reform-pastors-56972301?cid=share_facebook_widget

Excerpt from Instapundit:

Among those gathered was Darrell Scott, a black Ohio pastor who was an early supporter of Trump’s campaign and has been working with the administration on urban and prison issues.

“This is probably the most pro-active administration regarding urban America and the faith-based community in my lifetime,” Scott told the group, adding, “This is probably going be … the most pro-black president that we’ve had in our lifetime.”

He compared Trump to his predecessor, Barack Obama, the nation’s first African-American president, and said: “This president actually wants to prove something to our community, our faith-based community and our ethnic community.”

“The last president didn’t feel like he had to,” he added, saying of Obama: “He got a pass.”

Anonymous said...

It's not *compassion* fatigue. That emotion, as rh notes above, is a neighborhood thing. People's ability to feel compassion is probably functioning within normal parameters.

Whatever the "fatigue" being experienced here, it's not caused by the compassion wells running dry. (That's likely to happen, say, among people working face-to-face, in a practical way, with human misery and human needs for long periods.) I suspect that for the most part what is being described is *virtue-signaling* fatigue. I'm sure that that can be damned exhausting.

I don't believe for a minute that people overlaying flags on their facebook avatars, or waxing indignant about refugees, migrants, the micro-aggressed against, etc., year-in, year-out, are giving expression to the feeling of *compassion*.

gspencer said...

Muslims come and take, and take, and take, etc. from the kafir.

Why? Because their Qur'an tells them that that is the natural order of things according to Surah 9,29. The taking of things is called the jizya tax.

jaydub said...

I feel sorry for people who take the Guardian seriously. I suppose that qualifies as a type of compassion.

wwww said...



This post may be assuming empathy is a common trait. It is not.


Many humans have little capacity for empathy.

Some humans to become Angry at the suggestion they ought to notice the pain of others.

For example, many people get impatient with parents if they mourn the horrific death of their infants or small children for more then a week.

Many people have patience for a card, or flowers. That's it. Many do not have the capacity or tolerance for a personal visit or a casserole.

Most will not hold your hand.

It's the unusual person who displays empathy.

exhelodrvr1 said...

And on yesterday's discussion of health care prices (from Scott Adams):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb_woGzJXTY&feature=youtu.be

Drago said...

ADAB: "It's not *compassion* fatigue. That emotion, as rh notes above, is a neighborhood thing."

Agreed.

However, one's "neighborhood" need not have geographical constraints.

All that is required for compassion to be truly felt in a "neighborhood" way is some connection to exist between the "compassioner" and the "compassioned".

Martin said...

The cure is simple--be intelligent and informed so you can put things in proper perspective, including what is your appropriate response.

Sadly, intelligence is no longer valued.

tcrosse said...

Many humans have little capacity for empathy.

My thoughts and prayers go out to them.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

My thoughts and prayers go out to them.

Meh

glenn said...

“loaded with violence and conspiracies and endlessly unfolding anxiety” Which is exactly why I watch zero network news. That and most of the presenters are dumb as stones.

Quaestor said...

If empathy is such an indispensable...thing, then why was there no word for it before the 20th century?

hombre said...

I’m feelin compassion. Tax them! Tax them!

William said...

The British Navy suppressed the slave trade. They were categorical imperialists.

dreams said...

I'm pretty sure the Dems will continue to tell us how much they care about those poor little illegal children on our border.

Quaestor said...

I do not feel your pain.
I cannot feel your pain. Or your joy.
My brain is not connected to your nervous system.

I can subjectively place myself in the similar situation or circumstance and imagine subjectively what you claim to experience objectively and subjectively project what I predict my emotions and perceptions plausibly may be, but that's it. End of story. That's al metaphysics allows. Forget fucking Star Trek and that ridiculous "empath" babe, hot though she was, and STNG's "empath" councilor, psycho-babbler, hot though she was. They are fiction. Empathy is fiction. Sympathy is the best you can do because it's all you can do besides utter indifference.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

I don't see why we should reject the Kantian idea just because it's a "more commonly held view today... that empathy is vitally necessary."

Well, if you don't believe in a transcendent order then what other reason would you have to relieve the suffering of others than to ease the suffering you are feeling due to your empathy?

Ron Winkleheimer said...

So if you return a duplicated paycheck it's because you're feeling emotions.

Yeah, several. You might get caught and lose your job and get fired and get a reputation for being dishonest. Fear and shame. Or it might not comport with your sense of yourself. Pride.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Didn't Dickens have some character that spent all her time and energy trying to rectify wrongs that were far away and thus had no time for her own family?

Quaestor said...

This striving to have something impossible to have is why there's "compassion fatigue". It's like Sisyphus pushing that boulder. Of course, you're fatigued, what do you expect? To push that rock right out of Hell and become a god? Right, and I'm going to win that billion dollar bet by drawing to a royal flush. In spades!

D 2 said...

I have dropped a note on other Althouse posts close to this subject, and made 2 references:

N Geras - "the contract of mutual indifference"

R Burton - "anatomy of melancholy"

I am certainly not wise enough to understand/get Burton - I found the extensive Burton quote below in A Powell's Hearing Secret Harmonies, which I've read a few times over the years for unknown reasons.

You may excuse the length and keep on keeping on:

"I hear new news every day, and those ordinary rumours of war, plagues, fires, inundations, thefts, murders, massacres, meteors, comets, spectrums, prodigies, apparitions, ....... so many men slain, monomachies, shipwrecks, piracies, and sea-fights, peace, leagues, stratagems, and fresh alarms. A vast confusion of vows, wishes, actions, edicts, petitions, lawsuits, pleas, laws, proclamations, complaints, grievances, are daily brought to our ears. New books every day, pamphlets, currantoes, stories, whole catalogues of volumes of all sorts, new paradoxes, opinions, schisms, heresies, controversies in philosophy, religion, &c. Now come tidings of weddings, maskings, mummeries, entertainments, jubilees, embassies, tilts and tournaments, trophies, triumphs, revels, sports, plays: then again, as in a new shifted scene, treasons, cheating tricks, robberies, enormous villanies in all kinds, funerals, burials, deaths of Princes, new discoveries, expeditions; ...; one is let loose, another imprisoned; one purchaseth, another breaketh: he thrives, his neighbour turns bankrupt; .... Amdist the gallantry and misery of the world: jollity, pride, perplexities and cares, simplicity and villany; subtlety, knavery, candour and integrity, mutually mixed and offering themselves, I rub on in a strictly private life."

hmm maybe it is about beginning with where you hang your hat, and moving out from there.

Nonapod said...

What are these "emotions" I keep hearing about? Are they a raw material that can be utilized for homeostasis? Can they be consumed for fuel?

Drago said...

What does Stormy Daniels think of this interesting notion?

Michael said...

You can recognize the objective distress of other people and wish to relieve it without "feeling" it intensely. And intense feeling may well get in the way of doing the right thing - it makes you focus on the direct, visible, and immediate at the expense of the indirect, out-of-sight, and medium/long term. The effective minimum wage is still zero (in jobs that don't exist), no matter how deeply we feel that everyone should get $15 an hour.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

"empathy has a neurological basis.

The same brain regions that process our first-hand experiences of pain are also activated when we observe other people in pain.



Moreover, when we observe the emotional signals of others, we recruit brain regions associated with theory of mind, the mechanism that permits us to take the perspective of another person (Schulte-Rüther et al 2007).

This theory of mind mechanism, along with the ability to keep our own emotional reactions under control, may be of crucial importance for showing empathic concern, or sympathy. If I don't consider your perspective and control my impulses, I might react to your pain as if it's primarily an irritant or assault on me.

So empathy and empathic concern aren't just ideas. They are rooted in concrete, measurable, physical phenomena, and are part of our nature. That doesn't mean we aren't heavily influenced by ideas, but it suggests that humans don't depend on entirely on cultural training to develop a sense of empathy."

https://www.parentingscience.com/empathy-and-the-brain.html

CWJ said...

"I'm pretty sure the Dems will continue to tell us how much they care about those poor little illegal children on our border." ... that they never noticed before Trump.

Quaestor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gerry said...

Hell, if you're tired of feeling sorry for people who have it worse than you, back a progressive who wants socialism so everyone can be better off. Of course that will eventually cost you an arm and a leg, your liberty, and perhaps your life (Venezuela, anyone?) But at least your bleeding heart will feel justified even if it has no idea what justice is.

rhhardin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Quaestor said...

You return the duplicated paycheck because it's a mistake.

No. You return the duplicated paycheck because the self-preservation imperative demands it. The mistake is bound to be discovered. Your boss will conclude you're either too dishonest or too stupid to work for him. Either way, your ass is grass employment-wise. Unless you get paychecks drawn on a United States Treasury account, which means your boss doesn't give a fuck if you are paid twice for the same month's work. Why rock the boat by calling you out on it? He might have to account for his expence claims or something. In that case, you return the duplicated paycheck out of enlighted self-interest if you're bright enough to perceive it.

buwaya said...

Mrs. Jellyby, in "Bleak House"

traditionalguy said...

Social groups form and maintain a empathy for one another by preparing and eating food together and honoring the god, Caesar, or patriarch/matriarch ancestors with thanks giving.Outsiders are on occasion welcomed but they are then expected to keep the group covenant. Replace that by Re-education at your own risk.

Anthony said...

Yeah, well, when making a woman feel bad is considered a "horrific tragedy", I can see how one might get a little tired of it.

Quaestor said...

Anyone who would even consider registering the domain name parentingscience.com is submerged over his head in bullshit.

Francisco D said...

My old American Express White Privilege credit card is maxed out.

It is a unique card. It doesn't traffic in dollars, but guilt for which I get compassion points.

I used in back in the 1960's, but no longer carry it in my wallet.

Quaestor said...

Empathy is a lie the virtue signaling mountebank tells you when he wants power over you.

glenn said...

In other words, no matter how much money we throw at “the poor” and how many services we provide them, they still insist on having kids out of wedlock that they can’t support, lay around smoking and shooting drugs and killing each other at a pace that makes Baghdad look like a Sunday School. And in case you don’t know it isn’t a racial issue. The overwhelming majority on welfaristas where I live are white folks.

MadisonMan said...

Compassion Fatigue in the age of the Outrage/Industrial Media/Entertainment Complex.

Everyone can choose what they consume and feel good/bad about. Don't blame others if you spend too much time getting outraged.

jwl said...

Adam Smith - Theory of Moral Sentiments:

Let us suppose that the great empire of China, with all its myriads of inhabitants, was suddenly swallowed up by an earthquake, and let us consider how a man of humanity in Europe, who had no sort of connection with that part of the world, would be affected upon receiving intelligence of this dreadful calamity.

He would, I imagine, first of all, express very strongly his sorrow for the misfortune of that unhappy people, he would make many melancholy reflections upon the precariousness of human life, and the vanity of all the labours of man, which could thus be annihilated in a moment.

And when all this fine philosophy was over, when all these humane sentiments had been once fairly expressed, he would pursue his business or his pleasure, take his repose or his diversion, with the same ease and tranquillity, as if no such accident had happened.

The most frivolous disaster which could befall himself would occasion a more real disturbance. If he was to lose his little finger to-morrow, he would not sleep to-night; but, provided he never saw them, he will snore with the most profound security over the ruin of a hundred millions of his brethren, and the destruction of that immense multitude seems plainly an object less interesting to him, than this paltry misfortune of his own


Fernandinande said...

If empathy is such an indispensable...thing, then why was there no word for it before the 20th century?

!! Poop was more popular than empathy until 1951!

Fernandinande said...

Quaestor said...
Anyone who would even consider registering the domain name parentingscience.com is submerged over his head in bullshit.


The "intelligence" article was almost completely science-free.

DAN said...

Conrad Aiken, in "A Letter from Li Po":
For we must hear and bear
the news from everywhere: the hourly news,
infinitesimal or vast, from everywhere.

buwaya said...

Its a bit of blindness in us moderns to misunderstand the past.
Everything was not created yesterday.

The newspapers of the 19th century, and even the 18th, were dense masses of material, impossible to keep up with even for those extremely literate people.

And also note that newspapers were re-read often, with a much higher effective circulation than they had, probably, even in the final days of paper-only news.
Lagged, a lot, vs modern "breaking" news, but it was there.

Its also certain that the presentation and selection, or non-selection, of news was much less emotionally engineered vs that of the TV news. If you wanted your soap opera it was in the newspapers too, some of it written by Dickens.

rhhardin said...

You return the duplicated paycheck because it's a mistake.

No. You return the duplicated paycheck because the self-preservation imperative demands it. The mistake is bound to be discovered.


Suppose you're a contractor and the company you contracted with splits into two independent companies, and each new company pays you. You've got an extra check, and, if you hate paperwork and so delay billing until all the work's done, an extra very large check.

You send it in anyway.

Or, suppose you're riding a bike as is your custom and spot a twenty dollar bill on the shoulder. Of course you stop. There are more twenty dollar bills, lots of them, and a pay stub.

You might use the name on the pay stub to find the guy and get the money back to him.

It's all an absence of temptation, which comes from morality, not feelings.

wwww said...


Here's the thing people need to understand: People are different. People have different brains. People have radically different capacities. People are not all wired the same.

Common Errors for humans: Assuming everyone is like you. Assuming you are the median human. Ignoring the continuum of human traits and capacities.


Some people are not capable of empathy. Some people are capable of large amounts of empathy.

Some people are capable of small amounts in short bursts.

Some people get very angry if they perceive of someone "asking" for empathy. Empathy is hard for them. If you experience a tragedy, avoid these people.

Some people do not have the capacity for empathy, yet they live moral lives. People may have high levels of responsibility and conscientious traits, yet not be capable of empathy.

Others may not feel empathy. But they mind their own business, and do not seek to actively hurt others.



William said...

My addiction to Internet porn doesn't leave as much time as I would like to stay abreast of world events. Still, I think a lot of the fatigue comes from having to constantly reset and calibrate the empathy meter. Who are we supposed to feel more empathy for: those comedians who were exposed to Louis CK, the stars who were abused by Harvey Weinstein, or Jennifer Aniston's bad treatment by mean girls? The whole process is exhausting.

Quaestor said...

wwww wrote: Some people are capable of large amounts of empathy.

Larg amounts, eh? So just how do you quantify empathy, bucko? By the wheelbarrow full like most other types of bullshit?

buwaya said...

Empathy-engineering is big business.
And it is massively exploited - by all sorts, from many angles - for nefarious or at least amoral purposes.
Its another case of technology changing the problem sets faster than the human animal can handle.

buwaya said...

Is William yet another avatar of Laslo?
I have had this suspicion for some time.

Howard said...

lack of empathy is sociopathic, intentional suppression of empathy is over-compensation of chickenhawk cuckservative family values. Yesterday was a perfect example when President Bone Spurs called into Mr. Pilonidal Cyst

Quaestor said...

Suppose you're a contractor...

Come off it, rhhardin. That convoluted narrative doesn't evade my point in the least. The contractor returns the extra money if he wants to maintain his reputation. If I pay you by mistake I'm within my rights to demand my money back. Maybe you won't unless I take you to court. Fine. My bank will seek restitution and your credit rating will suffer. A contractor with bad credit is swimming in a lead Speedo.

rhhardin said...

Come off it, rhhardin. That convoluted narrative doesn't evade my point in the least.

Think of AT&T splitting into AT&T and Lucent.

buwaya said...

Sociopathy is a personal problem, not a social one.
Attacks on entire groups on the grounds of sociopathy or lack of empathy - "social justice" for instance - are simply exploitative, dirty pool. Entire industries are built on it however.

rhhardin said...

There's similar skepticism in the concept of a gift. Always the giver is taken as getting something out of it, even to the giver.

One solution was potlach, the ritual destruction of wealth.

One of the porblems of gift giving is how to avoid giving the other guy a debt at the same time.

Or only give gifts to people who you want as an enemy, of course.

rhhardin said...

Affirmative action is a gift. Blacks then became enemies of whites. They don't like the implied debt.

rhhardin said...

I think so little of your gift of affirmative action that I become self-destructive to renounce it.

rhhardin said...

There's a test for empathy.

rhhardin said...

See what you made me do. My favorite argument.

Quaestor said...

Howard the Cuck wrote: lack of empathy is sociopathic...

Look up the etymology of the word and explain why in the thousand-year history of English there wasn't such a word before an art critic coined it as part of his harebrained theory of aesthetics. And by the way, there is a related Greek term εμπάθεια, which is transliterated to empátheia. It doesn't mean what you might think it means.

Quaestor said...

Think of AT&T splitting into AT&T and Lucent.

When AT&T split you may be assured they had a small army of accountants beavering away at little problems like redundant settlements of payables with demands for restitution form letters waiting breathlessly to be sent by registered mail. The smart contractors acted preemptively in their own self-interest. The dumb ones cashed those checks thinking windfalls are windfalls.

Rabel said...

A Cougar.
A Common.
A Kant.

What's next on today's agenda?

rhhardin said...

When AT&T split you may be assured they had a small army of accountants beavering away at little problems like redundant settlements of payables with demands for restitution form letters waiting breathlessly to be sent by registered mail.

I think this counts as a modern belief in god.

Quaestor said...

The entire reason why leftists like Howard and wwww are trying to replace the perfectly reasonable and non-esoteric concepts of self-interest and sympathy with a totally fraudulent notion called empathy is to undermine the foundations of capitalism.

Quaestor said...

I think this counts as a modern belief in god.

Yes, rhhardin, accountants are gods. Happy?

Howard said...

Reality exists outside of words, Q. Go back to your pointless feminine nitpicking with rhhardin

Quaestor said...

I think this counts as a modern belief in god.

God is an inexorable force which rewards Good and punishes Evil, much like accountants, lawyers, courts of law, and credit reporting agencies doing their ineffable work to Balance the Books. Think of it as Karma.

rhhardin said...

You might have an electrical contractor over one day to replace some switched wall outlets that were suspiciously failing.

He might take way too long trying to figure out how to wire them.

As he's working out the bill, and making noises about giving you a break over the listed rates, you might say, "Charge so that you make money."

That's not empathy, it's morality. It's to keep a working system working. Both sides have to come out ahead.

rhhardin said...

Radio Japan said, one day long ago, that in Japan contracts are renegotiated when one party gets into financial unhappiness so that both parties come out ahead again.

Rather than sticking it to the unfortunate party.

buwaya said...

Reality does exist outside of words, which is one reason to learn foreign languages and cultures. Rhetorical tactics are different, some subtly, some profoundly, because socio-cultural-ethical priors are different.

Its unproductive to pound Chinese (a not so extreme case) over the head with US-specific emotional rhetoric. It doesn't even work that way in Spain or Mexico.

Quaestor said...

Reality exists outside of words...

How weak you are, Howard. Obviously unable to cope with my simple challenge to your puerile assumptions you revert to an assertion of the existence of the unseen and the undemonstrable.

I win!

wwww said...

Larg amounts, eh? So just how do you quantify empathy, bucko? By the wheelbarrow full like most other types of bullshit?



People who have the ability to sit with parents in the NICU with dying babies. People who are able to tolerate hearing the grief. People who take care of other children while a young one is in the hospital. People who are able to do that not once, but several times. People who can bear that level of grief.

Others can do it once.

Others send lovely cards, flowers or call.

Some run away.

Some feel nothing.


Empathy is a ability, like music, math or anything else requiring brain power and neurons. Some people got it in spades. Many are someone on the continuum. Others got none of it.

Howard said...

I'm so glad to have boosted your self esteeme Q. Now lets see if you can successfully use your word salad to wear down that endless loop who goes by rhhardin.

Howard said...

Speeching of self esteeme, notice how Q awards hisself with a participation trophy! Next week Mommy will buy him Big Boy pants!!!

Quaestor said...

Dust Bunny Queen wrote: Jumping into a raging river to save a child. Depends.

Whatever it is, it isn't empathy.

Quaestor said...

Howard wrote: esteeme

Twice! The word is esteem. Just like potato. No final e.

Quaestor said...

I have an abundance of self-esteem, Howard. And it increases whenever you post your idiocy here.

Howard said...

Thanks for correcting my horrific smelling Q. You remind me of my dear departed matronly first grade teacher, Mrs. Hamhock.

wwww said...

Another way to measure empathy. Here's a continuum:


You see 3 teenagers walking on a roof. 1 Girl and 2 Boys:

Are you: 1) worried they will fall and hurt themselves? Would it pain you to see them fall and hurt themselves? Do you want to yell at them to get down because you're concerned they would fall, and it would cause you pain to watch that happen. It would bother you to see them get hurt? Would it cause you pain?

Or, 2) are you annoyed by their foolishness? Angry because their actions concern you that the kids might injure themselves or others?

3) Are you annoyed that the kids might fall, and that will cause trouble for others. For the EMT, for the doctors, for their parents, and for the janitor who has to clean up the blood?

4) Are you indifferent? Do not care if they fall or not?

5) ) Would you enjoy seeing them fall and get hurt? Would you laugh?

6) Would you like to see one of them break their neck and die? Would you enjoy that?

Continuum: Large amounts of empathy to Sociopathy.

FullMoon said...

Or, suppose you're riding a bike as is your custom and spot a twenty dollar bill on the shoulder. Of course you stop. There are more twenty dollar bills, lots of them, and a pay stub.

You might use the name on the pay stub to find the guy and get the money back to him


Suppose you just lost your job,riding a bike because the car broke down, you are broke, your wife is home with the baby and no food you are facing eviction.

buwaya said...

My first thought would be admiration for their courage.
That is how human teens should behave, however perilous or foolish it is.
At bottom they are doing something right.
Better that than cowardice, passivity.
They, at least, are alive.

My second would be concern for their welfare.

buwaya said...

Courage is practiced, learned.
Some are born bolder than others, but all can improve in these virtues, if practiced.
The Greeks knew that.

It’s tragic that people will die, in so improving themselves, but life is tragic.

FullMoon said...

You might have an electrical contractor over one day to replace some switched wall outlets that were suspiciously failing.

He might take way too long trying to figure out how to wire them.

As he's working out the bill, and making noises about giving you a break over the listed rates, you might say, "Charge so that you make money."

That's not empathy, it's morality. It's to keep a working system working. Both sides have to come out ahead.


The homeowner is on fixed income.. every penny counts. Contractor gives homeowner a break because he realizes he misjudged the time and difficulty.
Homeowner pays reasonable price, contractor chalks difference up to a learning experience.
Both come out ahead

Bad Lieutenant said...

Rhhardin said...

You've got an extra check, and, if you hate paperwork and so delay billing until all the work's done, an extra very large check.


This suggests that you are literally and actually mentally retarded, and/or too stupid to live without assistance, and nothing you say is worth listening to. Reread what you wrote above until you understand and agree.


Have. You. Ever. In. Your. Fucking. Life. Worked. Because. You. Needed. The. Money. I understand that you want to win your argument, but this is wholly detached from reality. What color is the sky in your world where you don't bill as fast as you can because you want to get paid as fast as you can? Maybe you're rich, you work digging wells or pulling cable for funn how about your employees, do they work for fun? Does Kant ever use the term "cash flow?" You're a fucking maniac!

Marc in Eugene said...

Curranto is a useful word. I wonder if Powell knew it or went hunting for synonyms at that point in his novel.

Yancey Ward said...

If you spend your time looking for empathy, there is something wrong with you.

Yancey Ward said...

Practically all the empathy on display in the first world is for show only- it is almost all virtue signalling. The only authentic displays are from those who significantly alter their lives to match their empathy- for example, giving all you have above your own basic needs to charity. All the rest of it is attempts to coerce and bully others into feeling and acting on empathy they don't really feel.

Dust Bunny Queen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bad Lieutenant said...

Howard said...
lack of empathy is sociopathic, intentional suppression of empathy is over-compensation of chickenhawk cuckservative family values.


Not said as an insult, but merely an observation of a fact: you show no sign that you have ever had empathy for any living being. I do not recall anything you have written here that was not intended as deliberately cruel and wounding. You appear to be a pure sadist.

Dust Bunny Queen said...


Re: Ridiculous hypothetical

You see 3 teenagers walking on a roof. 1 Girl and 2 Boys:

Me:

How high is the roof?
Does it look dangerous?
Is it a private building or public building?
What difference is it that there boys and/or girls?
Why are they up there in the first place?
Is it my personal responsibility to do anything?
What can I do?
Should I do anything at all?
Why not call the police or fire dept? They get paid for this stuff.

Takes about 20 seconds to go through the above decision process.
Has nothing to do with empathy or lack of empathy.

stlcdr said...

https://apnews.com/d24e6ecc38ea49e39bba937af361ff2c

An example of how a news organization twists a news story with emotional elements.

Jim at said...

Compassion fatigue?

Nope. Call it harsh, but I stopped giving a shit about a LOT of things a long time ago.

In one hand are my problems and things I can do something about.
In the other are everybody else's problems and things I can do nothing about.

One hand never reaches the point of where I even bother with the other.

wwww said...

Dust Bunny Queen,

The question is not what will one do.

The question is what does one feel, if anything?

An easier empathy test:

The three teenagers are toddlers. What do you feel? Not what do you do -- but what do you feel? Would their pain hurt you? What does the person feel at the concern the toddler will fall? What does one feel watching the toddler fall?

Make it a harder empathy test:
The teenagers are young 20 somethings.

What does one feel? Is there a concern they will fall and hurt themselves? Will one feel upset if you watch them fall and break a leg?


Empathy is not moral action. Empathy is the ability to feel. Musical talent, the ability to hear tones and play the violin, does not mean one will pick up the violin and play it. Moral action can be driven by things other then empathy. Consciousness is not empathy.


One may not be able to play music or hear tone. That does not mean music does not exist for others who have the ability to hear it.

wwww said...


Another empathy test:

You are at the water cooler at work. A co-worker has red eyes. You ask how they're doing. The co-worker says her mother died last night of cancer.

Response:

1) Feel very sad for your co-worker. Sit with the co-worker, acknowledge her feelings, and ask if you can help.

2) Feel mildly sympathetic for co-worker. Say, "oh I"m so sorry." Get your coffee and send a card.

3) Feel very uncomfortable. Run away without saying anything.

4) Get angry at the co-worker for bringing up something personal.

Michael K said...

How about an empathy test for Mueller whose Manafort case is blowing up in his face ?

wwww said...



Empathy test:

You see a woman walking with a baby stroller down a hill. The woman falls down and looses her grip on the stroller.

Baby stroller speeds down the hill and overturns.

What do you feel?

Unknown said...

CARA MEMBUAT OBAT BIUS AMPUH

Seeing Red said...

Why would we come to the aid of people who are suffering, the thinking goes, if we don’t on some level feel their suffering, too?"


Because it’s the right thing to do. Or because we can.

Seeing Red said...

Empathy test:

You see a woman walking with a baby stroller down a hill. The woman falls down and looses her grip on the stroller.

Baby stroller speeds down the hill and overturns.

What do you feel?


It depends on the person because politics Uber alles. If the mother was a Trump supporter and the potential savior was a nutcase lefty, the nutcase would call it a late term abortion.

Howard said...

Wow, Bad Lieutenant. That's flattering praise coming from you.

Valentine Smith said...

People simply can't keep up with the demand for compassion by the endless ranks of the Righteous. Literally meaning to suffer with, compassion is a bullshit construct that actually plays out as I feel bad but thank god it ain't me. No one actually suffers except the afflicted. It's a selfish emotion made more so by the penumbra of moral superiority generated by mere words.

There is no such thing as altruism! All human action (and inaction) is driven by selfishness. Whether it be creative or destructive, actions in that moment satisfy a need. The need for moral superiority may indeed be more powerful than the need to destroy. Best of all for the destroyers, they get to dress up the wreckage in moral finery.

CWJ said...

Or you see a woman with a baby stroller at the top of the Odessa steps. Cossacks shoot her and she loses her grip on the stroller.

Baby stroller speeds down the sreps towards the quay.

What do you feel?

FullMoon said...

Or you see a woman with a baby stroller at the top of the Odessa steps. Cossacks shoot her and she loses her grip on the stroller.

Baby stroller speeds down the sreps towards the quay.

What do you feel?


How attractive is the woman? Who did she vote for? Is there a baby in the stroller? Boy or girl? Cheap stroller, or top of the line? How many Cossacks, are they still there?

Lucien said...

Who in the world goes to work the morning after their mother dies?

Howard said...

Valentine: Altruism is a byproduct of post-Archean evolution. Jordan Peterson has a nice lecture on the scientific evidence for lobster altruism. Altruism (or empathy) doesn't exist in a Creationism mythology.

Jim at said...

Baby stroller speeds down the hill and overturns.

What do you feel?


I don't feel anything. I go help.

Good grief.

Howard said...

Blogger wwww said... Empathy test:
You see a woman walking with a baby stroller down a hill. The woman falls down and looses her grip on the stroller. Baby stroller speeds down the hill and overturns. What do you feel?


This is a singularity where empathy shouldn't exist. Only a cold, clean, empty heart can muster the gumption to instantly react to save the weakest of the herd.

Howard said...

See Jim at, you and I can agree on something fundamental!

Anonymous said...

CWJ:

Or you see a woman with a baby stroller at the top of the Odessa steps. Cossacks shoot her and she loses her grip on the stroller.

Baby stroller speeds down the sreps towards the quay.

What do you feel?


Whatever the emotion is that goes along with "This is one of those allegedly totally genius Great Moments in film history that is actually just kinda hokey and annoying and detracts from power of the rest of the scene".

Or maybe I'm thinking of the emotion evoked in me by that homage to Eisenstein's baby carriage inserted into, what was it, The Untouchables? At first I felt amusement, and laughed out loud, but that was pretty quickly replaced by boredom and irritation.

Howard said...

emotion in rescue scenarios can tragically result in additional causalities. confined space entry 101.

CWJ said...

"How attractive is the woman?"

Medium

"Who did she vote for?"

There was no voting then or earlier.

"Is there a baby in the stroller?"

Yes.

"Boy or girl?"

Unknown

'Cheap stroller, or top of the line?"

Cheap

"How many Cossacks, are they still there?"

Maybe 20. Yes, they follow down the stairs.

Oh! And there's a battleship involved.

Howard said...

of course, the mother bear lifting a 2-ton pickup off her cub is something sexist I cannot possibly appropriate.

Bad Lieutenant said...

wwww said...


Empathy test:
...


What do you feel?

8/2/18, 1:34 PM



Kampff, meet Voight. Voight, meet Kampff.

FullMoon said...

Lucien said...

Who in the world goes to work the morning after their mother dies?


Lingering illness with years of pain and suffering, or sudden death?
Paycheck to paycheck, no savings and loss of job if you don't show up?
Live with mother entire life or left home at sixteen and haven't spoken since?

Love your job?

FullMoon said...

"How attractive is the woman?"

Medium

"Who did she vote for?"

There was no voting then or earlier.

"Is there a baby in the stroller?"

Yes.

"Boy or girl?"

Unknown

'Cheap stroller, or top of the line?"

Cheap

"How many Cossacks, are they still there?"

Maybe 20. Yes, they follow down the stairs.

Oh! And there's a battleship involved.

8/2/18, 2:04 PM


Defiantly take video for youtube and hope I don't miss my train

Dust Bunny Queen said...

According to all of these hypothetical tests....with the exception of the co-worker scenario....I'm pretty sure that blogger wwww hasn't any idea what the definition of empathy actually is.

Unknown said...

I once had a ~$10,000 bank error in my favor. Due to circumstances, I needed to take the cash (accounts were changing so the money needed to de-electronic-ify). I wrote them - keeping copies - several times and kept copies of their "no everything is fine" replies.

Three years later, they figured it out. An audit on their side, I assume. After talking with a lawyer, I sent them copies of everything and kept the money, although I could have afforded to return it.

Empathy was not involved at any point, unless schadenfreude is a type of empathy.

tcrosse said...

The opposite of Empathy must be Schadenfreude, and there's plenty of that going around. Think of all those election-night videos of Hillary supporters Taking It Badly. Must we feel their pain ?

D 2 said...

I think an effort to understand wwww's point re there being a "spectrum" of capacity for individual empathy can be accepted in a little good faith. Maybe I'm wrong on that

I also think he is mixing in that issue with the identified issue in the news article. Which is: where individual knowledge of pain & suffering can now be 24/7/365, which is a (relatively) new phenomenon, and causing for a (relatively new) understanding of how "compassion fatigue" affects people now, rather than, say, how life was for people in 1156 AD. Again, maybe I'm wrong about the article.

In other words, or perhaps akin to the identified wwww tests: what if instead of seeing one teenager on one roof about to fall off, and one coworker with one dead mother, and one stroller out of control, you were able to see forty teenagers, and forty coworkers, and four hundred strollers all within a few minutes. And there are four thousand other stories in the social media hopper coming at you, if you really want to know...

Our 12th century ancestors working at subsistence level slavery conditions most likely did not have this framework. The Burton quote I dropped was someone who may have - through their station - heard of more widespread suffering than most of his own time. Today, it would seem exponential more so.

So the processing of feeling for individual grief is not the Question at hand. It is the (inevitable) failure for one person to try to process a universal. Which leads one to wonder what path one is to choose when faced with a failure to process adequately. On that, there can be diverse opinion, but the only Truth is that none are perfect.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Is the co-worker at the water cooler attractive?

rhhardin said...

Empathy practical joke, at college dinner table

"My mother died today. [pause for silence] Or was it yesterday."

rhhardin said...

Have. You. Ever. In. Your. Fucking. Life. Worked. Because. You. Needed. The. Money.

Money's way overrated. Get a play-for-pay job and you'll see.

Your company buys you your hobby toys.

rhhardin said...

I had an IBM 360/65 to myself nights for a couple of years in there.

wildswan said...

"You return the duplicated paycheck because it's a mistake."

You put the duplicate paycheck into an account and send a memo saying there has been an error on your paycheck. They ignore you, as you empathically knew they would, and you collect the interest till they notice.

You return the lost paycheck because someone might really need it.

You look at the baby bouncing down the steps and tell yourself that you can't be sure that it will be the guilty only who suffer in a civil war.

The question in the writing of history is partly: what is a significant event? Thomas Hutchinson attributed the entire American Revolution to a fit of pique suffered by James Otis's father. Some think that Trump ran because he was insulted by 44 in 2011. But large numbers of people don't act because someone is piqued.

Some media who were at the Tampa speech by Trump claimed to be fearful because people going by the media stall were insulting them; I notice that the media is set up behind low metal crowd-guides that wouldn't hold back Antifa and common sense tells me that the media is not in the least fearful. They want ratings (just as Trump says in the speech) and covering him is one way to get ratings and saying they are fearful is another. Empathy for my fellow Americans says that that crowd was in great mood and thoroughly enjoying a chance to insult the media to their face; and the media was in an equally great mood as it checked off an evening of good ratings. And, empathy says, it was just an American amateur theatrical production with all the players knowing their parts and having summer fun.

wwww said...



definition of empathy:
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.


Moral action is not equivalent to empathy. Empathy, on its own, is not moral action. It is the ability to share the feelings of another individual.

One can be a conscientious person or act as a moral person in the world, yet have difficulty with empathy. One can have low capacity for empathy, yet act conscientiously towards neighbours, families, or strangers.

All of these words have different definitions. Sympathy is yet another word. It is not equivalent to empathy.

wwww said...


DBQ,


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empathy
Merriam-Webster
noun empathy

Empathy is the ability to share or understand the feelings of another individual.

: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this

2 : the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it

rhhardin said...

2 : the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it

That's the pathetic fallacy.

rhhardin said...

You put the duplicate paycheck into an account and send a memo saying there has been an error on your paycheck. They ignore you, as you empathically knew they would, and you collect the interest till they notice.

Not at all. You're just holding up your end of a deal in returning it.

The other guy coming out ahead too is part of the pleasure in the arrangement.

rhhardin said...

You return the lost paycheck because someone might really need it.

If that were the intuition, I'd give him my own money too. It's not a who-needs thing.

It's just restoring a transaction that has taken place to working status.

Call it all: understanding gains from trade.

rhhardin said...

Or look up categorical imperative.

Francisco D said...

Some people confuse empathy with sympathy.

The latter is to feel bad about someone's situation. Whether you take action or not probably falls along the courage continuum.

The former is to believe you understand what another person is feeling. A good therapist has empathy, but not necessarily sympathy.

Howard said...

you can't have shadenfraude without empathy. Otherwise it wouldn't be spontaneously pleasurable. If you were unable to feel an enemy's depths of dispair these is no psychic trigger of the ecstatic joy reflex.

Howard said...

Francisco D: exact65ly. that's why in my neighborhood, symp was a synonym for sucker

wholelottasplainin said...

Fernandistein said...
Dust Bunny Queen said...
quo bono?

Cher's old boyfriend?

***************

heh

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

"The former is to believe you understand what another person is feeling. A good therapist has empathy, but not necessarily sympathy."

Francisco, I've always heard that sociopaths and psychopaths are devoid of empathy. But I had a friend with a boyfriend I thought was sociopathic. He was very good at reading and manipulating people and playing on her heartstrings so she gave him money, and second, third and fourth chances although he was cheating on her. He isolated her from her friends and family because some of us told her this guy was a jerk. Finally, he dumped her. (That was during our undergrad years. Guess what? He is now a very successful attorney in Chicago. She - well, she's still kind of a mess because that's the sort of man she's attracted to.)

I think he fully understood what she (and others) were feeling and use it against them. He just didn't care what she was feeling.

Bad Lieutenant said...

rhhardin said...
Have. You. Ever. In. Your. Fucking. Life. Worked. Because. You. Needed. The. Money.

Money's way overrated. Get a play-for-pay job and you'll see.

Your company buys you your hobby toys.

8/2/18, 2:45 PM


I've never heard anything so obnoxious in my life, or at least that's top five. Did you inherit wealth or is it just that your Air Force pension is enough because you eat dog food by choice? Have you ever had to support dependents?

I don't know what a pay to play job is. Something involving bribery?

Michael K said...

Have. You. Ever. In. Your. Fucking. Life. Worked. Because. You. Needed. The. Money.

I can remember having $12 in my checking account. My wife and I were eligible for food stamps when in medical school but would never think of applying. I went through college and medical school on scholarship.

Michael K said...

He is now a very successful attorney in Chicago.

Psychopaths sometimes make good trial lawyers. Look at Stormy Daniels' lawyer for an example.

I think it is mostly genetic.

rhhardin said...

I don't know what a pay to play job is. Something involving bribery?

You get paid for doing what amounts to a hobby.

Bad Lieutenant said...


You get paid for doing what amounts to a hobby.

Oh, so like porn? That sounds swell. I wonder whose hobby is digging wells or feeding cattle or pouring concrete. Or managing trams to do so. Rh, for all your talk about Kant, you don't seem to have much connection, let alone responsibility of "duty" to other people.

Here. You said if someone needed it you would give them your money. My parents need money. I'm supporting them now and it's difficult enough, now they want to retire someplace warm so their pains hurt less. How about it? Or do you need to find and return their Social Security checks first?

Random Thought said...

Constant demands that we care about something unconnected to us does take its toll. Recent podcast with author of a book called "Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion" explains how empathy can also make us immoral. That's a good excuse to stop caring so much.
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/clear-vivid-with-alan-alda/e/55566373