"... Kris Irvin — who identifies as a man and uses the pronouns they, them and their — would have welcomed abnormal cell growth in their 'crappy and dysfunctional body.' Irvin knew of no other remedy for the physical and emotional agony that seemed to intertwine in their breasts, as they knew of no word to describe what they were experiencing. Since they were 3 years old, Irvin said, they were certain that they were male. 'But I didn’t know the word transgender until I was 28,' said Irvin, who is now 31 and a student at Brigham Young University, a school bound so tightly to the Mormon faith that enrollment rests on evaluation by religious leaders. That requirement could place Irvin’s education in jeopardy... 'One of the reasons God made me this way,' they wrote to their bishop, 'is to help church members and leaders see and get to know queer Mormons who are trying to stay faithful. But the church definitely does not make it easy for queer Mormons to remain Mormon'...."
From "‘He made me transgender on purpose’: Breast-removal surgery could boot Mormon student from Brigham Young" by Isaac Stanley-Becker (WaPo).
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161 comments:
If she wanted her legs amputated because God told her to, she would be treated for mental illness.
How is this any different?
The new Ali Watkins writes again.
'One of the reasons God made me this way,' they wrote to their bishop, 'is to help church members and leaders see and get to know queer Mormons who are trying to stay faithful.
I can think of no greater waste of time than continuing to support these insane outlooks everyone's demanding be seen as normal. And trying to stay faithful? To a cultn made-up by a known con artist?
This nation needs serious help.
‘He made me transgender on purpose’
Us.
Crack said...
I can think of no greater waste of time than continuing to support these insane outlooks everyone's demanding be seen as normal. And trying to stay faithful? To a cultn made-up by a known con artist?
Other than the knee-jerk word "cult" I too find myself asking my question. Yet, perhaps the most gracious, open-hearted person I know is a gay man and believing Mormon who works continually to help gay mormons find acceptance with their family and church.
"Their". WaPo zipping past the event horizon of the Clown World black hole.
There's an interesting story here, about how an individual comes to be this screwed up. (Identities hidden, of course, because it would be too personal.) Too bad WaPo writer dumbs-it-down and dulls-it-down into just another approved-narrative tale about LGBTQWERTY folk trying to educate(tm) un-woke religious conservatives, exploiting a broken individual's attention-whoring itch along the way.
"They" makes it confusing and harder to read. It fails basic plain language standards and should not have been published by a real outlet.
"From "‘He made me transgender on purpose’: Breast-removal surgery"
Wait, He made you "on purpose" in such a way that a human being would have to unmake it?
"enrollment rests on evaluation by religious leaders"
The same is true at Harvard. BYU is just more honest about it.
Henry said...
"Other than the knee-jerk word "cult" I too find myself asking my question. Yet, perhaps the most gracious, open-hearted person I know is a gay man and believing Mormon who works continually to help gay mormons find acceptance with their family and church."
Give me a break. All cultists are "gracious, open-hearted" people - that's what gets them in the cult. If you guys understood the phenomena, you'd understand that what you admire is their weaknesses. A strong-willed, course individual doesn't get talked into giving their money to a cult - people too "gracious" and "open-hearted" to say "No" do.
You guys are NOT helping anybody.
Henry said...
"Other than the knee-jerk word 'cult' I too find myself asking my question."
People too scared to call a cult a "cult" will never be able to fight cultism.
Only heard of "transgender" three years ago? What planet were they on?
A strong-willed ... individual doesn't get talked into giving their money to a cult
You don't seem to know many Mormons.
The word "cult" is laziness. It's a way to conflate many different things into the gigantic undifferentiated blob of "bad things I lump together." You've used the word to the point that it's tautological.
Use more precise words and you'll make your arguments stronger.
Has anyone else noticed Crack's tendency to assume everyone here is speaking for everyone here (except him)? Among his many annoying lazy habits of thought, that is probably his most lazy and annoying. And he seems to do this to the broader world--doesn't like that white person? All white people suck. The worst thing he can find anywhere is representative of everybody everywhere. Except him.
I wonder if he wonders why his life is such a struggle. Probably thinks it's because he's black.
This person has loads of problems and I feel sorry for them. Firstly, they appear to still be pursuing an undergraduate degree at age 31 (with hopes of becoming an editor at a YA publisher?? The editor positions will all be filled by people who finished their undergrad degrees in normal amounts of time.) And they're not close enough to finishing their degree that they can just finish it and THEN have the surgery. (Unless they are close and the point is to annoy the school, which is entirely probable.)
They have a 10-year old son and a husband who believes he married a woman 11 years ago and doesn't want to be married to a man. They already changed their name and had a hysterectomy, but no, top surgery will really finally make them happy.
I suspect, sadly, that nothing will actually make them happy.
Somehow I doubt the medical profession can or will find it within themselves to censure physicians who deliberately amputate healthy body parts.
Perhaps these doctors of medical "science" will defend the practice by referencing Matthew 5:29: "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for. thee that one of thy members should perish, and. not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
I'll tell them something I heard a long time ago.
It's so easy when you use Lestoil.
Less toil, get it? Now live it.
Do you know how much tuition is at BYU per year? Something like 5k, which is an insane price because it is heavily subsidized by The Church. Even as a non member, it's only about 10k which is the same price as my in state school. So yeah, if a worldwide population is subsidizing your education through their tithing, you bet they're going to enforce standards. A guy on the football team was suspended for a year my freshman year there because he got a girl pregnant. This happens. Go to another school and pay full price for your tuition if you don't like the rules. You knew going in. You have to reaffirm every year.
Sarah in VA: I suspect, sadly, that nothing will actually make them happy.
Her only chance at coming to terms with reality - and thus gaining the ordinary amount of happiness or contentment allotted to humans - would be for her to reject all the Clown World "explanations" for why she's unhappy. That's unlikely. Thus a tragedy.
Wanted cancer? Sick in the head.
Sometimes I am really amused that there are so many members of my Faith who become such activists within the Church for how bad we make some people feel. In this religious news cycle? The worst thing you can say is that a person with mental difficulties is getting kicked out of school? How quaint.
Henry said...
"You don't seem to know many Mormons."
I lived and worked in Utah for 5 year, and my best friend is from a family of Mormons I've spent too much time with. So, yeah, I'm completely ignorant.
I'm with Tim Maguire, using "they" is quite disorienting for me. In any case, I can't read this, and others like it, without feeling sympathy for the mental illness of the writer, and anger for those that enable or advocate this sort of thinking.
-sw
I'm calling BS. This sounds more like an activist trying to harm the Mormon church than a faithful member of the church who happens to be trans. The subject of the article should have known that neither BYU nor the church would come off well in the article, something a faithful member of the church would tend to avoid. (Let's not get into the idea that sometimes you have to hurt the ones you love in order for them to improve. Given the church's history of being driven out into the deserts of Utah and being on the receiving end of overt persecution through much of the 19th and 20th centuries, bad press is not something most faithful members seek.)
Also, BYU is a difficult school to get into in terms of grades and test scores -- roughly on a par with Stanford or UCLA. So, why go to a school where you know your lifestyle is apt to cause some heartburn when you can easily get into another that has a better national reputation? Unless, of course, you have another reason for going to BYU -- like making yourself into a martyr for the trans cause.
So, yeah, I'm completely ignorant.
I wouldn't go that far.
Henry said...
"The word "cult" is laziness."
Says you.
"It's a way to conflate many different things into the gigantic undifferentiated blob of "bad things I lump together." You've used the word to the point that it's tautological."
Intentionally. You assholes have watered shit down until it means "harmless". Fuck you - it's a cult.
"Use more precise words and you'll make your arguments stronger."
I'm not trying to make strong arguments - I told you: I'm not trying to save you assholes - I'm transmitting pure disgust. Whether you can save yourselves is the question.
I'm just waiting for the next "cult" shoe to drop - they killed 900 last time. What's it gonna be next?
"‘He made me transgender on purpose”
If anyone is transgender it is God. The use of the masculine pronoun speaks to the tranny’s mental confusion and the cold calculation of how best to defend it. Nutty people are tricky. Especially with the reflexively compassionate.
Perhaps omnigender is more accurate. You could get Talmudic as fuck if you didn’t have a life to live. Maybe that’s why some people become law professors. Imagine getting paid for that shit!
Birches: Go to another school and pay full price for your tuition if you don't like the rules. You knew going in. You have to reaffirm every year.
I don't think wanting cheaper tuition is the point of the exercise. BYU isn't sacrificing to the clown gods, and that can't be allowed. The WaPo's exploiting the desire for attention of this sad messed-up individual, and promoting her "cause", is just a means to that end.
A list of things that aren't cults would be useful for cross-reference purposes.
'He made me transgender on purpose'
"Teleological thinking — the attribution of purpose and a final cause to natural events and entities — has long been identified as a cognitive hindrance to the acceptance of evolution, yet its association to beliefs other than creationism has not been investigated. Here, we show that conspiracism —the proneness to explain socio-historical events in terms of secret and malevolent conspiracies — is also associated to a teleological bias."
We should not make fun of the mentally ill. However, those that encourage and patronize it should be at a minimum mercilessly ridiculed.
BYU can't do anything worse to this person than they will do to themselves. This is very sad. For everyone, including their family. This isn't liberation, it's self-destruction.
Any chance they are willing to pay for their own elective surgery or should resources allocated for real woman with breast cancer be reallocated for them instead?
Give steroids to men who want to enhance their masculine traits and see what happens to your medical license.
31 is way too old to not understand that there are other schools out there.
Since they were 3 years old, Irvin said, they were certain that they were male.
THEY is a word that means multiple people. So either this person is ill with multiple personality disorder, is one of a set of twins or triplets, or has several friends who are also stricken with whatever illness this person has.
She (who has decided to be a he)is mentally ill. I'm sorry for your illness. However, mutilating the language to make it almost unintelligible isn't giving you any more sympathy points with me.
I also wish people would stop supporting these mentally ill children and encouraging this madness and INSISTING that the rest of us play along with their delusion. This is a sickness too. Encouraging mentally ill people to do harm. Crack is right. It IS a cult of transgenderism and we are supposed to pretend that it is normal.
If you (not they since I'm talking about ONE person) want to be a boy. Chopping off your tits. Getting an addadictomy. None of this makes you a biological male. Dress up, act like a boy and shut up about it. You are just pretending and entitled to your fantasy. People really don't care what you do.
t Brigham Young University, a school bound so tightly to the Mormon faith that enrollment rests on evaluation by religious leaders.
So BYU is "bound so tightly to the Mormon faith." No kidding! What was the first clue for the intrepid reporter at the WaPost?
And water is wet.
We are what God made us. Once created, we are judged on our behavior as a child of God possessed of free will.
"Kris Irvin — who identifies as a man and uses the pronouns they, them and their"
These are third-person pronouns. Kris doesn't use these pronouns. Kris expects other people to use the pronouns when Kris is not present. It would be more helpful if Kris specified what forms of address to use: Mr. and sir, I'm guessing.
Isaac is a busy little bee.
Bill nailed it with the first comment. This is straight up mental illness.
If this person identified as a tree, or a building, the doctors would be prescribing drugs and therapy. So when a man identifies as a woman (or vice versa as in this case) doctors should be prescribing the same things. Instead, we’re supposed to pat Bruce on the head and lovingly call him Caitlin.
Humoring then this way is sadly not solving anything. And the mental illness continues unabated.
Does anyone still keep stats on how many transgenders commit suicide, and how that percentage compares to those with other disorders, or the population at large? Seems I recall that transgender suicides were far outpacing the others and the numbers for post op transgenders didn’t get any better - meaning this wasn’t helping them.
Sad.
I was identified at birth as blood type O positive. But I feel AB negative. I know I am suffering from something psychological, but it's only fair to force everyone to call me normal and change everything culturally that criticizes people who feel differently than the blood type assigned to them at birth by patriarchal medical science persons.
Hateful people who criticize me for my self-identification as AB negative are bigots. What is their problem? It's not quite hemophobia, though I suppose it may be a class of hemophobia. Hemophobia is too general. I need something more nuanced to describe the injustice of assignment of blood type that matches my genotype. I guess for now I'll have to settle for hemotypophobia as the insult to hurl at people who criticize me for my feelings I have about my blood type.
Where can I get support for what I feel to be my true blood type, so that in the event of a necessary transfusion I can get someone else to pay for all the anticoagulants and other stuff I'll need to receive what I feel would be a REALLY proper transfusion of blood: AB negative? It's only fair.
I guess I could settle for some O negative but, dammit, that would still be O. Not fair.
It's so sad that GOD MADE ME THIS WAY.
Now, give me your money.
TCE: “I'm not trying to make strong arguments...”
Finally, we have reached an accord.
If this person identified as a tree, or a building, the doctors would be prescribing drugs and therapy. So when a man identifies as a woman (or vice versa as in this case) doctors should be prescribing the same things.
That approach has been tried. And has its own horrible history of failure, abuse, and denial.
I've recently converted to Mormonism to deal with my alcoholism. It worked for a week, but now I'm back on the bottle. Any day now, I expect to be excommunicated - not for drinking, but for using LSD. I'm dyslexic and confused LSD with LDS. I assure you that it an innocent mistake unlike Schlump who should be impeached.
“That approach has been tried. And has its own horrible history of failure, abuse, and denial.”
I see. So since some people abused it, and some outcomes weren’t good, we should abandon the best practices of the mental health industry and instead go with ... abandoning reality and humoring people’s delusions?
Sad
After seeing what my wife went through in her bout with breast cancer, I can't believe that any sane person would wish for it.
I wonder how much ret-conning is involved with the "since they were three years old?"
The desire for self-mutilation involved in praying for breast cancer to be able to justify cutting off the breasts is typical of a spectrum of adolescent body image dysfunction ranging from cutting and bulimia to suicide. As Steve Sailor points out, the Transgender movement has managed to valorize this radical form of self-mutilation. Why wouldn't a skin and bones bulimia girl be able to equally argue that God made me skinny?
If Kris Irvin identifies as a man, why not use masculine pronouns? Insisting on using "they/them" seems like attention seeking and faddish.
As far as the Mormon issue is concerned, Utah Valley University is only a few miles north of BYU and has no religious endorsement test. And it has an English department. If Kris really wanted to continue their education (yes, using 'their' made my teeth grate), this is a viable option.
I think that this is more attention-seeking behavior on her part (that was much better).
""They" makes it confusing and harder to read. It fails basic plain language standards and should not have been published by a real outlet."
Agreed. Sounded like twins at the beginning.
"Blogger tim maguire said...
"They" makes it confusing and harder to read. It fails basic plain language standards and should not have been published by a real outlet."
It wasn't.
A Brown University report just issued (August 22) seems to indicate transgender feelings can spread among clusters of teenagers in a matter of days or weeks. Who knew?
"Rapid-onset gender dysphoria might spread through groups of friends and may be a harmful coping mechanism, a new study suggests, but more research is needed.
Brown University
PROVIDENCE, R.I. [Brown University] -- For individuals with gender dysphoria, the conflict between experienced gender identity and sex observed at birth produces significant emotional distress.
Until recently, it was unusual for a teen to report initial feelings of gender dysphoria during or after puberty without childhood symptoms. Clinicians have reported that this kind of gender dysphoria is on the rise, particularly for patients whose sex was observed to be female at birth. Additionally, the numbers of adolescents seeking care for gender dysphoria has increased dramatically. It is unknown why these changes are occurring.
This month, a Brown University researcher published the first studyto empirically describe teens and young adults who did not have symptoms of gender dysphoria during childhood but who were observed by their parents to rapidly develop gender dysphoria symptoms over days, weeks or months during or after puberty...
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-08/bu-brf082218.php
Blogger Sebastian said...
"From "‘He made me transgender on purpose’: Breast-removal surgery"
Wait, He made you "on purpose" in such a way that a human being would have to unmake it?
--
"Uh..umm...Hater!!"
I'm just not comfortable with their's use of "he" w.r.t. a supremely trans omnipotent entity.
Yet, perhaps the most gracious, open-hearted person I know is a gay man and believing Mormon who works continually to help gay mormons find acceptance with their family and church.
Gays are not insane. Transgenders are.
we should abandon the best practices of the mental health industry
WHAT best practices of the mental health industry are you talking about?
Mormonism rests on the foundation of revelation - belief in the revelations Joseph Smith claimed happened to him, believe in his teachings the true religion is always found it on revelation and each person in the world is entitled to personal revelation to know truth, and a belief that the current leaders are guided by revelation. That’s what it means to be a Mormon. You don’t have to believe it. But that’s Mormonism
In 1995, the then leaders of the church published what they called a proclamation on the family. Here is a portion of it :
“ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”
Now, every person struggles with faith in particular doctrines or particular things. And this person may be struggling with faith in that particular statement by the leaders. But it’s illogical with in Mormonism to assert that fundamental doctrine of changes come through individual people rather than the leaders. It is not incorrect to say that the members are entitled to Revelation themselves or confirming revelation, But the way Joseph Smith organized it and the way he described it, the role of the leaders is to receive revelation for the entire church and to pronounce doctrine.
"Gays are not insane. Transgenders are."
Your "man to beast" transformation was a rousing success. You're "insanity" on steroids.
Transgendered Mormons, I suspect, is a very "limited" sample size. It might up there with Puerto Rican ballerinas who dabble in molecular biology.
As a native speaker of an ungendered language I can attest to the fact that it aint all that. Among those who grew up in cultures with such languages, men are men and women, women, and everyone is clear on the difference. The same range of human-normal sexual relations prevail.
The use of silly extemporized things like "they" is a fad. It changes nothing, as can be determined by hundreds of ongoing "natural experiments" with at least a half-billion native speakers of naturally-evolved genderless languages.
And even among its proponents it is an extremely tiny minority that aspires to something like asexuality or hermaphroditism anyway. As noted above, if it is a question of a sex-change, one is pretending to change TO something.
The other way of looking at it is indeed conspiratorially, to which I am inclined. This is being pushed, by the coalition of the usual suspects, as yet another social solvent, in order to advance their political agenda by eliminating all distinct institutions interposing between the individual and the state.
Crack, to call Mormonism a cult is, I believe, a bit disconnected from the facts. We’re coming up on 200 years since Joseph Smith walked out of them then backwoods of America and said he saw God. Except for the few former regular folks who are called to be full time leaders (for example the current president of the church was a former heart surgeon ) - and that’s about 150 people in the entire world - except for them, every congregation in the world is run by local laypeople. Tell me how that at all is the structure of a cult ?
I always take these stories "with a grain of salt" as, personally, I can't remember much before the 3rd grade.
Except maybe through photographs and stories that were repeated often, but which was someone else's interpretation.
When people tell me stories of when they were 4 years old, I just cringe.
On the matter of gender identity, I believe there is a physical deformity, but I also think that there is a social aspect as well. I do believe that testosterone is defectively applied in some developing fetuses, but I also think that 10 people who are lesbian men that hang out together, form a psychological condition.
In any case, thinking about your sexuality is like counting pennies. A waste of time.
Henry said...
"A list of things that aren't cults would be useful for cross-reference purposes."
A list? For anything I don't mention? That seems unnecessary.
If I say yoga is a cult, do you automatically start to think PE might be - when I never mentioned PE?
You guys need refreshers on how to think....
Quayle said...
Tell me how that at all is the structure of a cult ?
Because it's not PE.
Church basketball OTOH. That might be a cult.
Bob Boyd makes me happy.
"... Kris Irvin — who identifies as a man and uses the pronouns they, them and their
If Kris actually identified as female, her pronouns would be she and her
Instead, Kris identifies as an F'ing lunatic
They do seem to like drama, don't they?
But I love the idea of having the Washington Post adhere to one's desired pronouns. Trump should inform them he prefers He, Him and His. Let's see how they finesse turning Him down.
Henry said...
If this person identified as a tree, or a building, the doctors would be prescribing drugs and therapy. So when a man identifies as a woman (or vice versa as in this case) doctors should be prescribing the same things.
"That approach has been tried. And has its own horrible history of failure, abuse, and denial."
The way folks look at this shit is silly: the odds say not everyone is going to be "normal," but "abnormal" doesn't have to equate with "bad" - and doesn't require the rest of us to change - it just has to be acknowledged as what nature and evolution does. We don't do that. We act like absolutes exist in nature, when they don't, and the "abnormal" is something we should either hate or aspire to - that's silly, sick, and harmful to society.
Oner of my best lawyers was a transgendered male-to-female. He/she and I looked each other over, decided we were up against a world that hated us, and then went in the courtroom and kicked ass, San Francisco-style. That was a great day.
The other guys religion is always absurd and suspect on some level. They have always been "cults" in the modern sense of the term. A Greek pagan would have seen a Mithraditic fire-worshiper as such, and most certainly vice versa. This attitude towards the alien religion and culture is inherent in human nature, as well as the revulsion towards those who abandon "the temples of their gods" to go to the other side.
A 31 year old college transgender should not be mainstreamed with developing adults.
Birkel said...
TCE: “I'm not trying to make strong arguments...”
"Finally, we have reached an accord."
My bad. I should've said “I'm not trying to make strong arguments for a bunch of obstinate assholes, who don't care either way, and wouldn't give in even if they found I was right, but ALWAYS need to fight a war to say so"
That's the more honest telling. It fits with whites and their history.
MayBee said...
"Bob Boyd makes me happy."
I bet you say that to all the boys.
buwaya said...
"The other guys religion is always absurd and suspect on some level. They have always been "cults" in the modern sense of the term. A Greek pagan would have seen a Mithraditic fire-worshiper as such, and most certainly vice versa. This attitude towards the alien religion and culture is inherent in human nature, as well as the revulsion towards those who abandon "the temples of their gods" to go to the other side."
I'm an atheist. You're ALL alien to me.
Forcing people to use words that make no sense is an exercise in power. The reason to control language is to prove dominance.
That is all.
Quayle
Most religions are cults of a sort. Mormonism is a cult. Catholicism is a cult. Baptist, Pentecostal Snake Handlers, Islam, Judaism, Veganism. Some cults are more or less harmful. Some are very very harmful. Manson Family.
The word cult is defined as a system or group of people who practice excessive devotion to a figure, object or belief system, typically following a charismatic leader. The term is commonly connected with highly unorthodox religious sects that take part in sinister practices and demonstrations. In some cases, this is true; however, cults can be non-religious too.
Trying to leave a cult? You know it is a cult when the members will actively try to stop you from leaving. Mormons will have "interventions". People ganging up on you to make you think correctly. The Priest of the Catholic Church or the Pastor of your Baptist sect, will be called in to try to dissuade you from leaving "the faith". In many cases, there are dire consequences for leaving the "cult". TRUE Mormons will no longer do business with you and you and your children will be ostracized.
Cults are not always evil. But, they can lead to evil. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition or the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
If you are raised in a cult, you don't know it is one.....until you try to leave or think for yourself.
See what happens to people who try to talk against Transgenderism. Same as leaving Scientology or decide to stop being Anti-Fa activists. Cults ....all.
Try figuring out the "right" thing to do when you have transgender family members that you love. They are adults and so their parents can do nothing. Their "therapists" encourage them in their mental illness. It's like having a counselor for bulimia or anorexia tell the patient "yes, you really are too fat, you should eat less." Meanwhile, causes like depression or OCD are ignored. As a family member, you love and accept the person, but you don't really know what is the right thing to do. You are well aware of the suicide rate, so you call them by the name they want to be called and try to make sure they know they are loved. And you pray.
By the way, I'm using "their" and "they" because we have more than one in our extended family.
There seems to be a confusion of sexual dysmorphia and sexual preference going on here.
"and then went in the courtroom and kicked ass, San Francisco-style."
What was the legal issue?
TRUE Mormons will no longer do business with you and you and your children will be ostracized.
This is completely untrue. Many of my family has left the Church and though there are strains in the relationship, it is not because we're commanded to break ties. It's because a bond that strengthened our relationship is now broken. We had commonality before and now there is not. It takes awhile to find new relationship footing. Another strain is that some of my family members cannot restrain themselves from saying something disparaging about my faith when we are together. How often to you want to hang out with the guy who cannot never stop talking about how awful Trump is? Same thing. I have family members who have not attended Church in years. No relationship strain.
Quayle said...
"Mormonism rests on the foundation of revelation - belief in the revelations Joseph Smith claimed happened to him, believe in his teachings the true religion is always found it on revelation and each person in the world is entitled to personal revelation to know truth, and a belief that the current leaders are guided by revelation. That’s what it means to be a Mormon. You don’t have to believe it. But that’s Mormonism."
Huh. That sounds a lot like a "cult" to me. And before you go all multi-culti on me, maybe you could list a few of those things Smith claimed happened to him? And then we can talk about the magic underwear.
Look, to be clear, anyone who believes all that nonsense is every bit as divorced from reality as the crazy bitch this thread is about. The difference is that you guys are functional, while she is not. That's why we don't care about all that crap you claim to believe. But that doesn't mean the Goddamned Angel Moroni had a tete-a-tete with old Joe Smith back in 18-whatever. Keep your delusions to yourself, and other people won't mock them.
"If Kris Irvin identifies as a man, why not use masculine pronouns? Insisting on using "they/them" seems like attention seeking and faddish."
Yes, if Irving identifies as a man, he should be using masculine pronouns. The vast majority of people will encounter no natural difficulty in talking to and about someone if they identify as male or female because we use pronouns associated with gender all the time. We might find it humorous that a woman defines herself as male, but we can then comfortably comply with that and refer to her as him without violating the rules of language itself. However, by insisting people use "they", "them", and "themselves", you make it maximally difficult on others since the usage violates the rules for pronouns, and that is always the point- to make it difficult on others.
"‘He made me transgender on purpose’: Breast-removal surgery could boot Mormon student from Brigham Young"
Mormonism, transgenderism--plain old sanity seems rather boring when there so many weird and wonderful ways to be crazy.
Although...I can sort of sympathize here. I like women and I'm glad they're around, but I'd sure hate to be one.
If a person is so crazy that they want to mutilate him or her self -- that requires a psychological intervention. This person does not need a college degree. She needs her brain fixed.
I have great sympathy for this person's plight, but I'm really bothered by the use of "they" and "them" to describe a single person. These words already have meaning and using them this way is perplexing. I kept stopping to try and figure out what group was being referred to, and once I got past that, I could not shake the image of multiple personalities inhabiting one body.
Maybe they can get Mitt Romney to help them out
Does Romney have binders of them?
I’d like to ask everyone to take one position on whether it’s okay and mentally healthy to surgically alter the appearance of nondiseased breasts. That is, I want you to withdraw criticism unless you also reject breast enlargement surgery.
Apparently a lot of women are unhappy with their breasts and some of them decide to take surgical action.
Crack,
You should work that courtroom scenario into a screenplay.
Looks like it has the components Hollywood might green light.
I think it perfectly ok for Irving to remove the breasts if he can find a doctor willing to do so, which doesn't seem to be the issue, right? I do wonder what would be BYU's position if Irving were a woman who had them enlarged, or a woman who had them reduced in size for comfort. I also wonder why Irving made this a public matter in the first place- couldn't he have had them removed without informing the university? I can't read the article because it is behind the paywall- did the university find out about it some other way?
What’s wrong with deciding that the look you want is completely flat? Some women are naturally flat chested. What dies it matter which direction one goes with surgical alteration? A flat chest is convenient in a lot of ways. Surgical enlargement makes much less sense functionally.
Ann Althouse said...
"I’d like to ask everyone to take one position on whether it’s okay and mentally healthy to surgically alter the appearance of nondiseased breasts. That is, I want you to withdraw criticism unless you also reject breast enlargement surgery."
Not so fast. If I reject paying for a "doctor" to help some psycho mutilate herself, do I also have to reject going down to the gym and doing bench presses to make my pecs larger, so chicks will want to touch them? I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to be more attractive to the opposite sex, and taking steps to get there. What level of effort is appropriate is a question, but if you are paying for it, I guess I can't complain. But that's not what this is about. Not at all.
That is, I want you to withdraw criticism unless you also reject breast enlargement surgery.
Breast enlargement has gotten very common. It is also common among lesbians so the Patriarchy is not responsible.
Subcutaneous mastectomy is a good idea for women with strong family histories or BRCA mutations.
I have done so a few times with women whose biopsies show high risk. I have recommended it and several have had it done with reconstruction.
Teenaged boys with gynecomastia often have subcutaneous mastectomies for emotional reasons. They hate to undress in locker rooms.
My sister had a biopsy with subtle DCIS changes That's ductal carcinoma in situ. I recommended she have subcu mastectomies. Her surgeon called me and complained she had "cancerphobia."
She did it and had invasive cancer in one specimen. That was almost 40 years ago. Her fifth grandchild will be born next month.
The Transgender Spectrum Disorder describes a condition of gendered (i.e. mental, physical attributes) divergence from the biological sex. Some classes (e.g. homosexual) are clearly more stable than others. That is to say, do not require medical corruption or mental conditioning to realize a stable mental state. We should probably be wary of advocates and activists who target adolescent and prepubescent boys and girls for transgender conversion therapy before progress confirms a stable divergence.
The comment I just made has nothing to do with transgenders who I consider to be mentally ill.
I’m not for any altering surgery or drugs for kids (unless medically necessary and “transitioning kids” isn’t medically necessary). If adult women want to do this, then fine. It’s a bad idea, just like boob jobs are a bad idea and tattoos are a bad idea. But they are adults. If adults want to chop off their boobs or dicks, then it’s up to them. Just as bring a Mormon is up to them.
Yancey, it seems that the motivation to go public is to force a response from the school. Otherwise, I doubt they’d have said anything. What would they do, ask what’s up with your seemingly new flat chestedness? Who thinks they were monitoring breast size and taking note of changes?
Ann Althouse said...
"What’s wrong with deciding that the look you want is completely flat? ... Surgical enlargement makes much less sense functionally."
Well, the reality is that wanting to be more attractive to the opposite sex is the evolutionary definition of functionality. But since you want to pretend this is all about fashion, and this poor lunatic is just a humble seeker after Truth in bodily form, go for it if you can afford it. But don't pretend it has anything to do with "health", mental or physical. And don't expect the rest of us to pay for it, or even approve of it.
Dust Bunny Queen said...
"Quayle
Most religions are cults of a sort....You know it is a cult when the members will actively try to stop you from leaving."
Not anymore. I wish it was so easy. You've got "open" cults and "closed" cults. You can think you've left a closed cult and still be participating in an open one. Many people are in the open ones - especially people insisting they've got nothing to do with them.
How are the homeopathic medicines being marketed - and by who? Who are Chiropractors getting referrals from? Detox Centers finding customers? How are yoga studios not being challenged on their claims of it's benefits?
The cults are busy and the marks are clueless - that's how.
I got a call from them, once, saying my wife was with them and I needed to back off. It was the first time I realized what I was dealing with was organized. I've never forgotten it.
@ Jupiter
If you're coming at this from a "Magic Sky Fairy" angle, fine, I accept your criticism. But if you are coming at it from a "Donkey talking, transubstantiation believing/Martin Luther was right, Virgin Mary" angle, then I hope you are able to notice your large blindspot.
Are you suggesting the example in the article is the same as "augmentation"?
Perhaps that's not accurate.
Maybe the closest example to support would be breast reduction surgery.
How many women start there and decide "just get rid of them"..barring disease of course.
The issue is whether trans is a mental disorder that can be addressed vs pursuing surgery in support of it. And in this case, how it comports with religious doctrine.
Well, Ann, I suppose Irving's motivation is then financial- perhaps, battle prep for a lawsuit. If I were the university, I would ignore Irving altogether.
Birches said...
TRUE Mormons will no longer do business with you and you and your children will be ostracized.
"This is completely untrue."
First rule of cultism: don't believe anyone in the cult. If they were interested in the truth, or telling it, they wouldn't be cultists. Joseph Smith being busted as a con artist - repeatedly - isn't enough for most cultists to be rational. They brush it aside, as they do the truth elsewhere.
Mormons are horrible people.
"a humble seeker after Truth in bodily form,"
Hmm..humility ends at "I was sent here to show you.."
Ann asks, "Who thinks they were monitoring breast size and taking note of changes?"
Plenty of guys have those Federal Breast Inspector cards. You're saying those aren't legit?
walter said...
"Crack,
You should work that courtroom scenario into a screenplay.
Looks like it has the components Hollywood might green light."
It was classic - especially our first look at each other. Then came the recognition: We can do this.
it was pure Hollywood.
I’d like to ask everyone to take one position on whether it’s okay and mentally healthy to surgically alter the appearance of nondiseased breasts. That is, I want you to withdraw criticism unless you also reject breast enlargement surgery.
OK.
Breast reduction surgery: NOPE. If your non-diseased breasts are so large that they are causing other medical problems, then breast reduction surgery is a good option. Otherwise NOPE.
For example: My best friend in the 1970's had breast reduction done as a teenager, because due to a thyroid condition and her small frame (5 ft tall) her gigantic triple E breasts were causing her spine to curve over and getting arthritis in her neck and spine. The surgery was not very successful in that she WAS left with smaller more proportional size breasts but was horribly scarred from the incisions. She left them that way ...because she didn't care.
She saved her pre surgery bra as a memento. You could put one cup completely over your adult head down to your chin. Yuuuuge! She called it a wedding cap for siamese twins.
Of course there was the mental anguish of being a 12 year old girl with ginormous hooters and the teasing and grabbing by the boys. But....that wasn't the reason she had the reduction.
Unless your breasts are so abnormally large; are causing medical issues. Or are an impediment to normal functioning.... Live with it.
Breast enlargement NOPE. I see no reason to have such a procedure done for vanity reasons. If you are flat chested, you live with this. Many men like a lesser endowed woman. Just as you live with being very short, very tall or any other outlier in the bell curve of body shapes.
Styles change. Being less endowed is often in style. Being more endowed is also often in style. Permanently changing your body for vanity reasons is stupid. I think the same about excessive tattooing.
Get therapy if you feel that being flat is holding you mentally back. Learn to love who you are and treasure your own personal attributes...... big or little.
In a supposedly free society, it’s wrong and should be criminal to belong to a cult. The definition of cult is not forthcoming and is likely impossible to define absolutely. But yeah, take away their freedom to belong to that cult. Sounds like a Great Society. Sign me up immediately.
Birches said...
"... if you are coming at it from a "Donkey talking, transubstantiation believing/Martin Luther was right, Virgin Mary" angle, then I hope you are able to notice your large blindspot."
Dude, I am coming at this from the "Ave Jove" angle. And my large spot is red. You can see it there in the lower right. Quite becoming, if I say so myself.
What’s wrong with deciding that the look you want is completely flat? Some women are naturally flat chested. What dies it matter which direction one goes with surgical alteration? A flat chest is convenient in a lot of ways. Surgical enlargement makes much less sense functionally.
Human breasts are already much larger than they need to be for lactation. But that is not what they are for, any more than a peacock's tail is for flying. The function of human breasts is to attract the attention and interest of the male, and they perform that function better when they are larger.
Forget the surgery. We need to rally around the removal of outdated concepts like "singular" and "plural".
Who are we to say?
"Mormons are horrible people."
Yes? And nothing horrible ever came from offering disparaging generalizations about groups of people in the minority did it, Crack?
Mormons, as a matter of principle, and in uniform behavior, are not terrible. We should be wary of diversity (i.e. color judgments) politics and judge people by the content of their character, unless there is a uniform behavior that justifies racism, sexism, etc.
Get therapy if you feel that being flat is holding you mentally back. Learn to love who you are and treasure your own personal attributes...... big or little.
As a rule I would suggest that within reason, do what you can, when you can, if you can. In this context, a woman's breasts are just one gendered attribute that is neither a deal maker nor breaker. There is a constellation of gendered and personal attributes that define a woman, an individual, which create a perception of attraction for the male sex.
They is* a cutter:
"Kris used to cut their wrists; now, when the unease over their chest is the most severe, they pull a razor into the skin on their breasts, which are scarred from years of dissonance between their brain and their body."
They has a Go Fund Me page.
They seems quite prosperous, I don't see why this is necessary.
They is about 80 pounds overweight and could lose most of that evil breast tissue by eliminating the evil Mormon carbs from they's diet.
* I'll give them they's pronouns but I ain't giving up my verbs.
Bay Area Guy said... [hush][hide comment]
Transgendered Mormons, I suspect, is a very "limited" sample size. It might up there with Puerto Rican ballerinas who dabble in molecular biology.
Or, Toothless Revolutionaries..
Of course there was the mental anguish of being a 12 year old girl with ginormous hooters and the teasing and grabbing by the boys. But....that wasn't the reason she had the reduction.
Unless your breasts are so abnormally large; are causing medical issues. Or are an impediment to normal functioning.... Live with it.
I very much appreciate the female members of the Commentariat transitioning this thread from the Mormon Transgendered to good old-fashioned, large titties.
Subtle, but effective. Well done!
Mormons, as a matter of principle, and in uniform behavior, are not terrible.
They're not even horrible.
Bay Area Guy I very much appreciate the female members of the Commentariat transitioning this thread from the Mormon Transgendered to good old-fashioned, large titties.
You're welcome!
Another big titty story: My former boss when I worked at a financial institution (now deceased) was very very well endowed and was in general a rather small boned person, so it was more obvious than on a larger taller frame. She didn't dress provocatively at work, yet often got the side eye from the males and females anyway. Checking out her ...ahem....attributes.
We had to participate in a golf tournament sometimes for charity. Best ball. Actually, kind of fun for us not so great golfers.
One time, she was asked "What is your handicap." Without missing a beat she said.....
You're looking at 'em."
Mic drop.
Mormons are transitioning right now. They no longer want to be called Mormons, but instead: Saints.
"The Lord has impressed upon my mind the importance of the name He has revealed for His Church, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," Nelson said in a statement released on Mormon Newsroom, which will presumably be changing its name in the near future.
Boss deceased. Not the financial institution.
Also, she was a pretty good golfer despite not being able to bring the 'elbows together' for a classic golf swing.
Good times.
:-)
n.n said...There is a constellation of gendered and personal attributes that define a woman, an individual, which create a perception of attraction for the male sex.
--
Oh..I get ya. If they have a great ass, boobs don't matter so much.
Good to know there are several other members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints here. Outside of Crack's open bigotry, I would like to point out that contrary to every other religion that I am aware of, the more educated you are the more likely to be faithful in the Mormon faith.
I think many people don't really realize exactly what the "crazy Joe Smith" story actually provides, for the faithful. For one, the old hoary "Christianity/Judiasm is a bunch of crazy shepards who went mad from looking at the sky all night long" is totally ineffective. We've resolved the question of "does God exist" and "Why Jesus instead of Zeus or other fantasy gods?" because we can offer hard evidence. People may not accept it, but we have evidence we can point to.
Plus, there is more Mormons than Jews in the world nowadays. It's time to move past the "Nothing but a cult!" stuff.
By the way, Crack: Mormons and Mormon missionaries have done far more good for the black community than you ever have in your quest to enslave whites.
@DBQ,
Also, she was a pretty good golfer despite not being able to bring the 'elbows together' for a classic golf swing.
So, lemme understand this. This woman was:
1. a Boss, indicating a substantial earning capacity and leadership skills
2. with large hooters
3. with a sense of humor
4. who loved golf and was good at it.
Is that right? I think I'm in love. Did she like to drink massive quantities of alcohol,too?
n.n said...
"We should be wary of diversity (i.e. color judgments) politics and judge people by the content of their character, unless there is a uniform behavior that justifies racism, sexism, etc."
Human males are much more prone to violence, particularly rape and murder, than females, who are also usually smaller. This is not "uniform behavior", but it is a strong predictor, and as a society we accept that women are leery of strange men, and even encourage them to be. This is certainly sexism, and also prejudice. And common prudence.
Any day now, I expect to be excommunicated - not for drinking, but for using LSD.
See? That's your problem. It's LDS.
Is that right? I think I'm in love. Did she like to drink massive quantities of alcohol,too?
Oh YEAH. Every Friday, we would close shop (close the bank up) and she would announce.... "It has been a hairy week.....Stress Management Meeting!!!...ladies."
Yay! That meant we all trundled down to the local watering hole and de-stressed with a few drinks. First round on the boss. Spouses and significant others were invited to the girls night out...if they dared :-D
because we can offer hard evidence
You live by the evidence, you die by the evidence. The autosomal DNA studies of Native Americans are hard to co-opt.
Vance said...
"We've resolved the question of "does God exist" and "Why Jesus instead of Zeus or other fantasy gods?" because we can offer hard evidence. People may not accept it, but we have evidence we can point to."
Oh, so you have "hard evidence" that God is this immortal, omnipotent being who arranged to have a Son so He could torture Him to death, in order to save humanity from the damnation He Himself had placed upon them, as part of His perfect plan for the universe. But I'm a "fantasy god", and Crack is a "bigot". Keep going, you're on a roll! Let's hear about the magic underwear now.
Ann Althouse said...
I’d like to ask everyone to take one position on whether it’s okay and mentally healthy to surgically alter the appearance of nondiseased breasts. That is, I want you to withdraw criticism unless you also reject breast enlargement surgery.
8/24/18, 11:55 AM
Of course I reject implants! Doesn't every man? Who wants to touch that? Be happy with your lovely little lady lumps. Manybmen prefer small to large. Now, ban tranny cutting.
Of course the cases are not comparable and you are very stupid, or playing dumb, but I did want to give you a straight answer.
I'd have to get a look at the boobs and decide on a case by case basis. Sometimes I might call for a second look.
Ah, Jupiter.... the arrogance of an Atheist is always so attractive, isn't it?
I do hope you warmed yourself by all the straw men you just set on fire. You can call believers crazy, but guess what: our future is a heck of a lot more attractive than the one you claim: no law, no justice, no mercy, and nothing but extinction when a cruel, random universe decides to take you out. Yours is the belief that people like Stalin and Mao were the greatest, because they got to do whatever they wanted, exercise power over people, murder, rape, etc and in general do evil with no penalty, and they died happy knowing that they "won" life.
And this is the alternative you offer as superior to those crazy stupid Christians, right? Tis better to be evil as long as you can get away with it! After all, there's no punishment, so live it up and embrace whatever your darkest desires are. Why be good because evil's so much more fun!
Althouse sez:
"I’d like to ask everyone to take one position on whether it’s okay and mentally healthy to surgically alter the appearance of nondiseased breasts. That is, I want you to withdraw criticism unless you also reject breast enlargement surgery."
Hmm, this is a tough one. After sufficient focused ratiocination, my position is this:
1. I believe it is not okay and mentally unhealthy to surgically alter the appearance of nondiseased breasts.
2. The only exception is when a potentially hot girl wants to substantially enhance her rack.
Wait....
I’d like to ask everyone to take one position on whether it’s okay and mentally healthy to surgically alter the appearance of nondiseased breasts. That is, I want you to withdraw criticism unless you also reject breast enlargement surgery. }}}
Sure!
It's "ok" in the sense that, all other things being equal, people should be free to cosmetically alter their bodies.
It's less than optimal as far as mental health goes, but that's also case-dependent. For instance, you may have a career where cosmetically larger or smaller breasts would be very advantageous: probably mentally healthy decision. You may have very noticeable giant breasts, or a mis-matched set: probably mentally healthy decision. You may think that you will "become" a man if you have your breasts surgically removed: probably not a mentally healthy decision.
Wow Vance....judgemental much?
Speaking for myself, you or I have no proof that God exists, nor any proof that there is NO God. We just don't know. For many people it is comforting to believe that there is God. If that is your belief, and obviously it is, then that is good for you. I would never ever take that belief away from anyone or demean them because they do believe. You may be correct....or not.
Your version of God may not be the correct one. What if God is something entirely different than what you think or have been taught to believe. There is no way to know for certain....at least in THIS lifetime. That is why it is called faith.
On the other hand, those who believe the opposite that there is no God at all, have the right to their beliefs. They also should not be denigrated or told that they do evil because it is fun just because they don't believe what you do. Not believing in a God, doesn't mean that the person embraces evil.
I, personally, take the middle ground between is and is not. Because I just don't know. If there is God or Gods his/her/their rules then why not obey the those rules. Do good, because it IS good and the right thing to do. Not necessarily because you believe in God and are fearful of going to Hell, but because it is what is good.
If there is NO God and you still have been a "good" person, well...no problem. At least you tried. Why take the chance of being sent to eternal damnation (if that is what there is) when you can just hedge your bets. Do no harm while you are alive.
I expect that when the last breath is drawn, I will find out one way or the other. There is something. There is nothing. Or...it is something that is totally unexpected. Surprise!!!
I think getting your boobs done shows a lack of self esteem. There I said it.
Bad L: That is, I want you to withdraw criticism unless you also reject breast enlargement surgery.
Apparently somewhere in there we're supposed to infer an implicit "naturally you accept the bullshit analogy on which I've based this request".
I guess when you live in an environment where people are encouraged to believe that magic word games control reality, then you might have trouble making obvious distinctions among behaviors following from ordinary insecurities about sexual attractiveness, behaviors following from more serious manifestations of those sorts of insecurities, and behaviors following from profound mental illness that doesn't arise from insecurity about attractiveness.
Sorry, criticism not withdrawn. Getting a boob job out of desire to be more sexually attractive, regardless of the how neurotic and obsessive the insecurity that drives that desire can become, is not the same sort of thing as wanting to have a leg amputated because you "identify as an amputee". Yes, Althouse, people do that, and *that* is the behavior that is properly analogous to what this woman is seeking.
As Bad L says, you're either stupid or playing dumb. We know you're not stupid, so I guess you're just not "in the zone" with your trolling game today. 'Sokay, we all have our off days.
Vance said...
"And this is the alternative you offer as superior to those crazy stupid Christians, right?"
Hmmmm.... No, I don't think so. You seem to be arguing that moral behavior is impossible to those who do not have an imaginary playmate supervisor. Could be you are correct, but that still wouldn't mean that your supervisor is not imaginary.
I think I'm with DBQ on this one. It is possible that all religions are wrong. It is not possible that all religions are right. But if I had to construct an argument for the existence of God, it would involve mathematics, not crucifixion.
"I’d like to ask everyone to take one position on whether it’s okay and mentally healthy to surgically alter the appearance of nondiseased breasts. That is, I want you to withdraw criticism unless you also reject breast enlargement surgery."
Actually, what I'd like everyone to do is take a position on whether it's okay and mentally healthy to vigorously alter the appearance of non-diseased feet. That is, I want you to withdraw criticism unless you also reject foot binding.
So, anti-trannies, you gonna tell me you also reject foot binding? For real? What are you, some kind of cult?
We have traversed from Mormon Transgenderism to big boobs to theological arguments for and against the existence of God.
No offense, but I say we return to the Boobs.
The transgender (i.e. significant physical or mental gender deviation) spectrum... another cult classic. That said, whether homosexual (stable), bisexual (open), transvestite, crossover (e.g. neo-male), etc., an individual, despite great progress, is more than the sum of their parts, colorful clumps of cells, etc.
The single greatest gendered attribute that is a make or break consideration for nearly all men and women, is masculine men and feminine women. Men and women are equal in rights in complementary in Nature.
Wouldn't a better analogy be a woman who had been obsessed, since she began to develop breasts, that her breasts were too small? Obsessed to the point of constantly fantasizing about having larger breasts? Who was convinced that God had wanted her to have larger breasts? Even though her breasts were normally developed?
Obviously this woman, as an adult, should not be denied breast enlargement surgery. But if you think that this would end her problems, you are as crazy as she is.
Suppose this BYU woman was naturally flat chested. Do you really think that her attitude towards her breasts would be any different?
On the question of whether the Mormon religion is a cult: from an academic perspective, the answer may be yes. I'm a practicing Mormon. Allow me to explain. If you were an academic studying the world's religions, one of the first things you'd need is some system for ordering and classifying each religion you study. Just as the natural sciences needs to be able to tell where some new butterfly falls in relation to all the other insects, a theologian is going to need to be able to tell where some new doctrine falls in relation to all other doctrines.
The starting point is to place religions into one of several basic categories, such as: Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, and pagan. The problem is, depending how the academic defines Christian, 'Mormon' may not fit into any of those categories. In which case, it's put into the 'we've got no idea what to do with this right now' category, cult. This is the definition of the term 'cult' that might apply to the church (which turns on a definition of the term Christian that I do not accept).
There are other definitions of the term cult involving a charismatic leader. In fairness, I don't believe anyone could listen to our current leader, President Nelson, and believe that it's his charisma that binds us to the church. He's a wonderful man. He's also in his 90s. Perhaps this definition might have applied when Joseph Smith or Brigham Young led the church, but not today.
"Church basketball OTOH. That might be a cult."
Church basketball....the only fight that begins with prayer.
Bay Area Guy said...
We have traversed from Mormon Transgenderism to big boobs to theological arguments for and against the existence of God.
"No offense, but I say we return to the Boobs."
Well, if I could not prove the existence of God using mathematics, Boobs might be a strong second choice. With Mormon Transgenderism as a counterargument.
To be either male or female is weird in the grand scheme of things. You are just going along as a kid, playing ball, collecting comic books, and boom you start noticing girls and getting boners. It is beyond your control. Or you are going along as a girl and suddenly you start bleeding once a month and the boys start giving you the up-and-down look. It is all so strange and yet wonderful. You can embrace the weirdness and enjoy your time as a sexual being on this earth or find it all repulsive, which some do. Sad.
Jupiter, I'm both a Mormon and a Mathematician. I can promise you you'll not succeed in proving or disproving anything about God using math.
There are several classifications of knowledge, each with its own derivation system. Observational knowledge we can gather from our senses. Derived knowledge we deduce using logic and reason -- it's the bread-and-butter of my livelihood. Unless you're a religious person who accepts the reality of things beyond those sources, that's all there is. Religious people, however, also accept a different kind of knowledge, not accessible via senses or reason. It's easy to mock mysticism, but it's something that's been with humans since the beginning. Jupiter and Crack would say it's foolishness and that it's about time humans outgrew it. DBQ is content to leave the question open. Believers think there's a good reason why acceptance of the supernatural seems to be part of our mental makeup, but are sometimes overzealous in defending it. All three approaches can be intellectually consistent, just as the theorems of Euclidean and Hyperbolic geometries can be simultaneously correct, even though they contradict one another. It all depends on what you're willing to accept -- on your axioms.
Thanks to Althouse for, as usual, hosting a very interesting conversation.
That's right, people need to acknowledge the soft separation of logical domains: science, philosophy, fantasy, and faith. In particular, that science is a near-frame philosophy where accuracy is inversely proportional tp the product of time and space offsets -- forward, backward, and all around -- from an established frame of reference. Characterized specifically through observation, reproduction, and deductive reasoning. The faith logical domain requires a local aid and thus trust to reach.
Mark Nielsen said...
"Jupiter, I'm both a Mormon and a Mathematician. I can promise you you'll not succeed in proving or disproving anything about God using math."
I am neither a Mormon nor a mathematician, but the closest I ever come to believing that there is more to the Universe than meets the senses is when I contemplate mathematical truth. "Two plus two equals four" is a truth about counting pennies. But if you got rid of all the pennies, it would still be true. In fact, you could get rid of every countable thing in the Universe, and it would still be true. Even if the Universe had never existed, and never would exist, it would still be true, although there would be no one to understand it. That strikes me as a lot more transcendant than some rigamarole about Angels.
My wife is fascinated by a show about two plastic surgeons who repair botched plastic surgeries. There are occasional patients that have had 20, 30 or more procedures. Even a Nordic blonde who, in Europe where it appears legal, had some form of injections that turned her skin quite black. The usual mix where women have basketballs where their breast should have been. even one dude trying to be a "Space Fairy".
These women and men are mentally ill IMO. They seek..... something. And once the last surgery is over and healed, they need something else to make life perfect. I doubt they ever find contentment.
How many transgenders think, "If only..." then have the surgery, but discover the pain, the unsettled feelings do not go away.
If I understand it correctly, that is why John's Hopkins quit the practice.
If the Universe had never been,
And never were to be,
Then I would still love you, my Dear,
As you might still love me.
No rose would ever be red, my Love,
Nor any violet blue.
But Two and Two
Would still be Four,
As Four
Was Two
Plus Two.
I mostly agree with Doc Mike and she who remains nameless and deleted when Meade gets home. The trans are mental and doctors want to make bank carving them into sideshow freaks. They need to be taught to love themselves the way they are, not to covet what they cannot be.
I don't believe that if a man woke up one morning and found that he had grown a nice pair of breasts overnight, that he would believe that he was now a woman. If he woke up w/o penis & testes, then he would think that he been emasculated, made not-a-man. But not a woman. It is hard to believe that a man who had been relieved of his male genitals would think "Oh, gosh, I'm headed down to the JC Penneys tall and plus size woman's department. Gonna be a woman now."
So why does the BYU woman believe that her breasts are what makes her a woman?
Lack of a penis is what makes her effeminate, or at least emasculate.
Maybe it is true what some people say -- that a man who says he wants to be a woman wants to be something other than he is, but he doesn't know what it means to be a woman. He just wants to be not whatever his idea of male is.
But I think I know why the BYU woman said that God wanted her to be a man. If you have to choose between created by God or created by nature, you can't really claim that nature intended to make you a man but made you a woman by accident.
40 years a Mormon convert and have never seen people ostracized for leaving the church. If someone complained that Mormons contacted them too much about getting back in the church, I would be more inclined to agree.
To the Althouse question, I have known several Who have had reductions and only one who had addition. I am inclined to not care one was or the other if over 18. Under 18 I would probably be more sympathetic to a reduction rather than an addition and recognize the hypocrisy of that position.
To the transgender issue - in a world where people won't vaccinate their children from fear of the medicine, I am astounded by the number of people who embrace hormone therapy for children under 18. Adult children will do what they choose, but any treatment for children should be carefully considered. If you think interfering with parental rights to provide hormone therapy against parental wishes is OK, would forced vaccination also be OK in your view?
This is another example of someone who hates what and who they are (or, more mildly, have a hard time coming to terms with who and what they are) and portray the cause onto others.
hombre said...
"Mormons are horrible people."
"Yes? And nothing horrible ever came from offering disparaging generalizations about groups of people in the minority did it, Crack?"
Groups of people vehemently following the crooked words of a repeatedly-convicted con artist? You guys take the cake with law-and-order for blacks but think every white crook gets a "get out of jail free" card. Fuck you. Mormons and Mormonism rip at the fabric of America with their contrived bullshit charlatanry.
Vance said...
"Good to know there are several other members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints here. Outside of Crack's open bigotry, I would like to point out that contrary to every other religion that I am aware of, the more educated you are the more likely to be faithful in the Mormon faith."
How much does the average American follow the news on what's going on in Mormonism? Think they know about the protests against anyone who cracks on them beyond "The Book Of Mormon", or the countless sexual abuse cases, or care they can't even answer simple history questions? If they don't - because don't Mormons like to think what happens within Salt Lake's encircling mountain range stays in Utah's mountain range? - then how can they judge what Mormons are doing? I lived in Utah for 5 years and know, most don't hear what goes on because Mormons hurt each other, and that keeps it quiet. It stays in the cult.
"I think many people don't really realize exactly what the "crazy Joe Smith" story actually provides, for the faithful."
I don't think you really realize what a lie is, what the harm from spreading them does - such as being the catalyst for this very disagreement when we could be doing something constructive together - or appreciate how much easier it would be to communicate, if certain Americans didn't insist on nonsense like Joseph Smith did, for instance, when he claimed to understand Egyptian hieroglyphics when he didn't.
"For one, the old hoary "Christianity/Judiasm is a bunch of crazy shepards who went mad from looking at the sky all night long" is totally ineffective. We've resolved the question of "does God exist" and "Why Jesus instead of Zeus or other fantasy gods?" because we can offer hard evidence. People may not accept it, but we have evidence we can point to."
"We can offer hard evidence. People may not accept it but"? You have no evidence whatsoever. I remember the Mormons claiming to have solved cold fusion, too. You guys area joke to anyone who understands the con John Smith started you down. You're the most gullible marks on the planet, surpassing even Scientology's.
"Plus, there is more Mormons than Jews in the world nowadays. It's time to move past the "Nothing but a cult!" stuff."
I'll make you a deal: you don't tell me what to call your cult and I won't won't act like PT Barnum didn't say there's a sucker born every minute.
"By the way, Crack: Mormons and Mormon missionaries have done far more good for the black community than you ever have in your quest to enslave whites."
You all seem to have this image of me on a black stallion, riding to the rescue of my people, as opposed to being someone screaming out ills and the very reason your dumb ass is motivated to do anything. I'm not impressed by Mormon outreach with it's promise you go to Heaven for being gullible. YOU"RE STILL ONLY DOING IT FOR YOURSELF, YOU FOOL, AND GUESS WHAT? I KNOW IT. You're not a generous people, but a selfish cult.
Now go have nine kids, as if you can afford them, and pretend like your poverty is in their self-interest.
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