July 15, 2018

"[Sacha Baron] Cohen is still an undisputed genius at punking... But if 'Who Is America?' is worth any praise, then what are we to say about the techniques of Project Veritas..."

"... the conservative, undercover operation that has tried to infiltrate and expose liberal bias among news organizations and community organizers? What Cohen does is not all that different... To giggle at and delight in Cohen’s pranks is to believe that you can have it both ways: that you can be horrified at the collapse of truth and democracy, and then laugh at a guy who seeks to undermine whatever remains of trust. As watchably galling as Cohen’s techniques may be, America in 2018 doesn’t really seem like the right time or place for it."

From "Sacha Baron Cohen still knows how to punk America, but his new show erodes what little trust we have left" by Hank Stuever (WaPo).

I'm giving this my "Era of That's Not Funny" tag.

By the way, the commenters at WaPo are strongly resisting the comparison of this comedy show to the Project Veritas sting operations. The key argument is that Cohen presents his footage as a network comedy show. He just wants laughs. Project Veritas presents its footage as internet video, for the purpose of affecting real-world policy. But (I would add) there is a side effect of humor in some of the Project Veritas video, and Sacha Baron Cohen does have a political viewpoint and does intend to undermine the power of the politicians he targets.

No one — not Stuever or his commenters — mentions "The Daily Show." A few years ago, we continually heard the observation that Americans are getting their news from that comedy show. A satire was the primary source of factual information and opinion spin. The line between showbiz and journalism was blurred long ago. I mean, look at how the WaPo commenters are willing to call Project Veritas "journalism"! It used to be critiqued as not journalism at all, as if it really were more of a comedy show.

The line between seriousness and comedy — between journalism and entertainment — is just completely blurred now. The idea that it should be sharpened up... is that some kind of joke? I couldn't tell you, because the line between joking and sobriety is gone.

114 comments:

rhhardin said...

The line between seriousness and comedy — between journalism and entertainment — is just completely blurred now.

Seriousness is a subgenre of comedy in the first place, not an opposite.

rhhardin said...

It's funny until somebody gets their eye poked out. Then it's still funny, just not around that person. - usenet

Gahrie said...

I couldn't tell you, because the line between joking and sobriety is gone.

Thank your feminist friends...they were the start of it.

Gahrie said...

How long until the mob starts howling for Hank's job?

rhhardin said...

The last thing to determine conclusively is whether you're in a comedy or a tragedy. To quote Italo Calvino: "The ultimate meaning to which all stories refer has two faces: The continuity of life, the inevitability of death." Tragedy, you die. Comedy, you get hitched. Most comic heroes fall in love with people introduced after the story has begun. Usually people who hate the hero initially. Although I can't imagine anyone hating you, Harold.

- Stranger than Fiction (2008)

Leland said...

It's funny when you get to laugh at someone else getting punked.

MD Greene said...

'Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die.' -- Mel Brooks

Free speech. All of it.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“I couldn't tell you, because the line between joking and sobriety is gone.”

“I was only joking”, Trump every time he tweets something especially ridiculous, while being serious. No wonder you Trumpists are so confused.

The Vault Dweller said...

It is interesting the author chose Project Veritas to compare Sacha Baron Cohen's work to. Because I've never really had a problem with either of what the two people/groups did. A little bit of trickery and deceit to get the actual, truthful responses and actions of certain people on camera seems fine to me. Now that doesn't mean I want that occurring all the time in society, I think it can become too commonplace, but I don't think we are at that point yet.

What I object to is when groups intentionally edit the footage to make it look like a person said something or did something they didn't. Like when Katie Couric added in a long pause after she asked a question about gun control to make it look like the respondents were stumped and in a moral quandry, or when NBC edited the 911 phone tape of George Zimmerman, to make it look like he unilaterally offered up the fact that Trayvon was Black to seemingly suggest he had racist motivations. I don't like it when late night shows edit their interviews with 'controversial' people to make it look like the host gets in some good zingers. Now this isn't to say all editing is bad, but it shouldn't significantly alter the message, and I believe Project Veritas tends to offer up the unedited footage as well so people can see the whole thing.

Psota said...

I just don't get the distinction they are drawing with Project Veritias. PV practices serious undercover journalism that would win Pulitzers if carried out by one of the big networks.

The Cohen/Daily Show "trick" of making conservatives look like idiots? Easy to do and not journalism, except in the most basic "gotcha" sense.

I note also that PV's failures are when they do try to be silly or comedic, such as the time they got in trouble for trying to prove that Mary Landrieu's phones were working. (who cares??)

Chuck said...

But Althouse; Cohen doesn’t “just want laughs.” Cohen wants laughs, and a particular kind of laughs. He wants laughs at the expense of American working class social conservatism.

He’s like Michael Moore. Michael Moore doesn’t “just want laughs.” Michael Moore wants laughs as a means to something that he no doubt regards as very serious; progressive politics.

If either guy “just wanted laughs,” they could both be punking Maxine Waters and Larry Tribe and Elizabeth Warren and Mr. and Mrs. Bill DiBlasio or the entire population of Martha’s Vineyard. But they don’t do that.

n.n said...

The same undercover work with a motive is done by the mainstream media, social justice organizations, law firms, etc. However, not all of these target businesses and people for political and economic exploitation.

Gahrie said...

Free speech. All of it.

Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

FIDO said...

Since I saw Borat, I have despised SBC. He essentially abused the trust and hospitality of hundreds of people for a laugh.

He also hates them.

So if he got pancreatic cancer, it would not be much of a loss.

Speaking of 'uggos' with pretty women, he is nailing Isla Fisher.

How the fuck did that happen?

n.n said...

It's easy to exploit people who assume actions in good faith. Who would imagine someone impersonating a wounded warrior as a punchline? In the #MeToo era? I suppose that women and girls need to stop relying on central casting to separate the wheat from the chaff.

The Vault Dweller said...

Blogger FIDO said... Speaking of 'uggos' with pretty women, he is nailing Isla Fisher.

How the fuck did that happen?


Oh I think there are plenty of women who would find Sacha Baron Cohen tall, dark, and handsome. (Oxford comma usually included, not just because he is British.) With him being successful, and funny on top of it, I'm sure he had plenty of beautiful women to chose from. It is just that his work may make him off-putting to a good percentage of the population because of who he makes fun of.

Lucien said...

I think the turning point was when Jimmy Fallon was excoriated for treating then candidate Trump like a normal guest. He didn’t realize he was expected to be part of Secretary Clinton’s campaign effort just like rest of the MSM.

Just last week Seth Rogen was called out by someone on the left for tilting his obligatory anti-Trumpism too much to the “Trump is a buffoon” side, and not enough to the “Trump is an evil tyrant threatening our Democracy” side.

(It’s hard out there for a pimp).

Wince said...

The burden on PV is to reveal actual misconduct that, despite the MSM, once revealed the government or law enforcement can no longer ignore.

SBC simply has to create a meme that the MSM will selectively run with to propagate a notion into a popular belief.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Sacha is pushing a lot of Clinton Corruption excusing. Mocking those who think she is a crook.

We see where this is going.

Veritas uncovers crime.
Sacha mocks the right and excuses corruption on the left.

Big Mike said...

... you can have it both ways: that you can be horrified at the collapse of truth and democracy ...

Lost me right there. The point of Project Veritas is to expose truths that are uncomfortable for Democrats to acknowledge, but important for voters in a democracy to know when they go to vote.

Achilles said...

It is just leftist fascists being fascists.

If you don’t clap long enough they will have you fired. They want to throw you in jail and will if they can.

Just watch Inga here.

It takes a particularly amoral world view to base your politics on taking stuff from people who earned it and giving it to others who didn’t.

The Vault Dweller said...

This isn't the first article I've seen either panning or criticizing SBC's new show, that appeared in lefty media. This makes me think that a lot of the comedy doesn't come off good in a furthering the left side in a socio-political cultural sense. It might come off as mean, disrespectful, and angry. Which hurts the left.

Say what you will personally about Jon Stewart and the Daily Show, but during the Bush Administration is was very effective cultural and political force for left and against the right. Maybe some of these authors have seen some and emotionally, or maybe even sub-consciously are worried this will hurt their cause more than help. Maybe this comes off as like the Reeve's tale from Canterbury tales, and not the Miller's.

Yancey Ward said...

Mel Brooks said it best about humor, but someone has already posted it above.

rcocean said...

Cohen is a wealthy Left-wing, English Jew, who's very proud of being all three. He had his wife convert to Judaism before they were married.

And he'd be very upset if anyone mocked anything he was in favor of.

I'm always amazed at 'muricans who think people like Cohen are "one of us" just poking good naturally at "our" foibles.

He's not. He's trying to - not very subtly - show Americans as "racist/bigots/homophobes".

cubanbob said...

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...
Sacha is pushing a lot of Clinton Corruption excusing. Mocking those who think she is a crook.

We see where this is going.

Veritas uncovers crime.
Sacha mocks the right and excuses corruption on the left."

Too bad Sleepy Sessions is comatose. Watching Hillary and company in their manacles and orange jumpsuits would be a laugh riot.

MD Greene said...

Gahrie said: Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

The idea is, if you obfuscate the truth or ambush people unfairly, you will discredit yourself.

The downside is that a lot of people want to identify with the cool kids; sometimes they confuse sneering with thinking.

If it weren't for millions of credulous saps, SBC would have to find another hustle.



Mary Beth said...

I don't like the kind of humor where one person is trying to make another person look like a fool. Even in sit-coms, where I know all of the actors know what's going on, watching a character get tricked just makes me uncomfortable and I'll stop watching.

Unknown said...

The line between journalism and entertainment became blurred back when we started seeing "Action News" formats for every local news broadcast. The news has been packaging itself as entertainment for decades.

MayBee said...

This is such a good post.

Narayanan said...

I thought Project Veritas was postmodern black comedy??!!

Narayanan said...

To complete the circlejerk, Trump should invite comedy hosting to "press pool briefing"
On Saturdays for start.

HipsterVacuum said...

We'll always have Inga.

tcrosse said...

The news has been packaging itself as entertainment for decades.

Much of the news industry is owned by entertainment conglomerates, so it's all just Content to them. Whatever gets the eyeballs.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

““I was only joking”, Trump every time he tweets something especially ridiculous, while being serious. No wonder you Trumpists are so confused.”

And y’all were wondering how Trump so effortlessly punks the Left....

Bad Lieutenant said...

rcocean said...
Cohen is a wealthy Left-wing, English Jew, who's very proud of being all three. He had his wife convert to Judaism before they were married.

And he'd be very upset if anyone mocked anything he was in favor of.


Granting your premise and all that, ISTM you have three choices, RC:

1) Drop SBC down an elevator shaft
2) Ban or censor SBC
3) Develop effective replies, and/or retaliate with some form of humor directed at the Left, and/or SBC personally

Otherwise you're just jealous and sulking.

I don't like it either, I find it tasteless and degrading. I favor 1), above, personally, but 3) would seem to have a bigger payoff.


He had his wife convert to Judaism before they were married. <--Good for him!

rcocean said...

"Otherwise you're just jealous and sulking."

LOL! Thanks for doing a detailed analysis of my comment - and giving me "options".

I didn't realize i was supposed to "do something" regarding this unfunny British left-wing wanker.

However, unlike you, I don't feel a personal connection with Mr. Cohen. How about I just settle for attacking him on the internet and not watching his show?

John henry said...

Cohen is a wealthy Left-wing, English Jew, who's very proud of being all three

Which is the one he is not proud of?

Wealthy?
Left-wing?
English?
Jew?

John Henry

Narayanan said...

Trump adopted the effective strategy of bypassing content provider middlemen.
Hence his tweeting success.

He noted what happened to Wynand.

All was foretold by Ayn Rand in The Fountainhead ... Trump has learned lessons from it ... On the side of good.

Hillary choice to channel Ellsworth Toohey, as did Obama via Alinsky and Ayers

FIDO said...

The amazing thing to me is how many people actually signed the permission slips in Borat. After some English asshole invited a big fat black whore to my dinner party, it is the height of good manners NOT to shoot him. Anything else is saintly.

Lewis Wetzel said...

These are sad times indeed if you believe the institution known as the government of the United States of America has vitally important, noble goals to achieve.
Me? I'm having a blast.
Maybe the government should have demonstrated competence at its fundamental duties of picking up the trash and fixing pot holes before its stewards decided a better use of the government's power was to morally reorder humanity.

Charlie Currie said...

Candid Camera
60 Minutes
Punked
Orson Welles' "War of the Worlds" now that was the ultimate punk.

chickelit said...

Cohen et al. have weaponized comedy for political purposes. It’s just the latest “get Trump” tactic. Funny how the left will try anything but the ballot box to get their way.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

I'm surprised no one offed Cohen for his Ali G character. I wanted to, and I'm not even Muslim.

hstad said...

Well I guess AA had to a least bring Cohen into the mainstream discussion. Cohen is not that funny, but certain people in the audience loves what he does.

"....Free speech. All of it....." Not really, "Free speech" is never free it has consequences and we are seeing this via the debasement of our culture and the constant push for "fake news", to generate more business[eyeballs, clicks, etc].

I did my college thesis on "Yellow Journalism" in the '20s, which was bad. But the owners of such media where called "Media Barrons" and where known to be political. Today's journalism is largely diffused and constantly denies bias. Moreover, today's journalism lacks quality control of the product put out. Just look at the lack of talented journalists all of whom are put through the wringer of producing tabloid journalism daily.

William said...

Eugenia Ginsburg was arrested while hanging laundry in the back yard. She wanted to say goodbye to her kids but they wouldn't let her. Throughout her stay in the Gulag, she kept the wrapper of a candy she had just confiscated from her child. She treated it like a holy relic. Her crime? She was married to a high ranking Communist who was suspected of having Trotskyite sympathies. She herself was a committed Communist, but her real passion was literature which she taught at the University. Her husband was duly shot, but they treated her with leniency. She was allowed to saw logs in Siberia........There's not much potential for humor in Ginsburg's story, but it's worth noting that the contempt that Choen shows towards Borat is what makes such a story possible. Cohen has never made fun of the refined, well bread prejudices of his own class.

FIDO said...

Funny how the left will try anything but acceding to the will of the people and not being crazy offensive


Fixed that for you

MikeR said...

The comparison with Project Veritas is just wrong. If/when Project Veritas had value, it was when they used their mostly unethical tricks to expose real wrong-doing. The goal wasn't to mock or scorn people, it was to show that they were lying and cheating.

Earnest Prole said...

The pranking of Project Veritas, Sacha Baron Cohen, and The Daily Show (in its Jon Stewart iteration): All three are hilarious.

When people tell you who they really are, believe them.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I think they're just jealous because he points out the same failings in American society that they as journalists have always failed to do anything constructive about.

buwaya said...

It is "English Jew", as that is a thing in itself. Culturally distinct.

There is a certain disdain for American Jews, I understand, and within the last few decades for Israeli Jews.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Cohen et al. have weaponized comedy for political purposes. It’s just the latest “get Trump” tactic. Funny how the left will try anything but the ballot box to get their way.

Chickelet et al. have weaponized politics for comedic purposes. It's just the latest "fellate Trump" tactic. Funny how the right will try anything but letting others have power to get their way.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Funny how the right will try anything but telling the truth to get their way.

buwaya said...

Every society has failings, as do all persons.

The problem here is a substantial imbalance in the ability to point them out, on account of hegemonic domination of the MSM, and lately also of internet venues. Besides that, there is also the matter of biased officials making the legal risks far worse for conservatives.

Imagine what would happen to an SBC-style Youtube channel.

If not worse, as in the persecution of David Daleiden by the office of the California Attorney General, that is, both Kamala Harris and Xavier Becerra pursued this series of prosecutions as a personal initiative.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

It takes a particularly amoral world view to base your politics on taking stuff from people who earned it and giving it to others who didn’t.

Can I just go on record for a second to say that I want none of Achilles' "stuff," whatever that stuff even is?

All his failures - socially, financially, spiritually, morally, psychologically - in life, are entirely his own. He's worked hard to earn them. I would never want to deprive him of those things or take a single one of them from him.

I am proud of his failures.

rhhardin said...

Seriousness is a subgenre of comedy, not its opposite. cont.

Take a woman being serious, complaining, about a hostile workplace, or offered job for sex. This is so bad it has to stop, etc.

That's a woman acting like a woman. Any guy sees the comedy. "I am helpless, as you can see, so you have to listen."

The comedy is that she's aiming at men in general what ought to be aimed at her husband for his sympathy and caring. Her husband likes that role. It's bonding.

You can't aim it as society in general.

The disproportion is the comedy. The small does not fit the large.

That's typical of women. A typification comedy.

What's actually serious will only turn up in retrospect, perhaps distant retrospect. You can't put it in the present. The present serious claims to have the seriousness of the retrospective serious, a political move.

That's not funny is a move to prevent noticing the comedy of present seriousness.

Stamping of tiny foot.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

It takes a particularly amoral world view to base your politics on taking stuff from people who earned it and giving it to others who didn’t.

Achilles is very proud of the five bankruptcies Trump's earned and the wealth he inherited from his dad Fred Trump to grow at something lower than the expansion of the overall economy in the time he had it. That's earning!

Achilles is proud of all that entitlement he was born into and did nothing useful with.

It reminds Achilles of what Achilles would do with his own worldly possessions - such as the wardrobe full of wife beaters and the double wide he calls home. All looking mangier and grungier and dirtier and less well kept with each passing year.

MD Greene said...

hstad spoke of "'Yellow Journalism' in the '20s, which was bad."

In fact, newspapers functioned as house organs for political parties for hundreds of years. That's why Alexander Hamilton founded the New York Post. In the 20th century, newspaper and radio advertising became profitable, too, and their owners sought broader followings by promoting objective coverage. There came Bill Murrow, then Walter Cronkite, then Bill Moyers, then Dan Rather, then Charlie Rose, then Bill Maher.

The tumult of the internet has allowed many more people/voices/points of view. The cacophony does not abide by the previous staid conventions (which always were slippery at best). Trying to sort out the truth is now a wearying effort, especially for a distractible population that gorges on selfies, superhero movies and Pokemon Go games.

It does not help that our tech overlords -- Larry and Sergey, Bezos and Zuck -- have the loudest megaphones and strong points of view. Who doesn't miss the days before Microsoft was prosecuted for antitrust, back when the industry was indifferent to political noise?

The genius of Trump, love him or hate him, was to break through media filters and take his message directly to the people. Now the media are frustrated and whining that he isn't allowed to do that. The empire is striking back.

Take that, Matt Damore and Jordan Peterson and Amy Wax and Sarah Huckabee Sanders. There's a new Savanarola in town.

pacwest said...

"What Cohen does is not all that different.....that you can be horrified at the collapse of truth and democracy, and then laugh at a guy who seeks to undermine whatever remains of trust."

Color me stupid, but I don't understand what is equivalent between Cohen and PV. I understand the point that is trying to be made, dirty tricks deserve dirty tricks in return, but you can only make the equivalency of investigative journalism (even at a partisan level) and punking by making partisan viewpoints the new objectivity.

That won't work. The rules have changed. The partisan referees that determined for us rubes what the facts and truth are are not in control of the game anymore no matter how many flags they throw.

Earnest Prole said...

If either guy “just wanted laughs,” they could both be punking Maxine Waters and Larry Tribe and Elizabeth Warren and Mr. and Mrs. Bill DiBlasio or the entire population of Martha’s Vineyard. But they don’t do that.

Dial up Cohen’s pranking of Naomi Wolf, Noam Chomsky, Andy Rooney, Sam Donaldson, and the Veteran Feminists of America.

buwaya said...

I have often noted that -

- The US already collects more than enough in taxation to stanch all its wounds, symbolically perhaps, to the same degree as any European country. The US collects less tax as a proportion of GDP (though its not by that much, after one allows for the peculiar US practice of hiding taxes as mandates), but the US has got so much more to tax that the resources collected are more than comparable. The real US problem is that its degenerate public sector has made applying these resources massively inefficient. It costs the US much more to provide similar medical services, or housing, or anything else. The US suffers from a vampiric public sector. French and German bureaucrats and judges and lawyers and NGOs\Quangos are simply better people working in a more honest system.

- The US system of taxation is far more "progressive" than any in Europe, as in proportion of taxes (or quasi-taxes) paid by income quintile and etc. Europe taxes its commoners much more than does the US. Taking into account legal loopholes and "cultural" factors like widespread corruption (as in France), it may tax its 1% less than the US.

MD Greene said...

EDWARD Murrow. Sorry.

buwaya said...

Imagine the outcry and outrage

- should some left-wing agitprop outfit had tricked NRA personnel into embarassing statements on video.

- And then the Georgia Attorney General prosecutes them, again and again, seizing their equipment and recordings.

These people would be the next cause celebre, howls of righteous outrage would be in the news daily, and cross-country demonstrations organized.

This is what actually has happened to Daleiden, but without the expensive organized outrage.

Bad Lieutenant said...


rcocean said...
"Otherwise you're just jealous and sulking."

LOL! Thanks for doing a detailed analysis of my comment - and giving me "options".

I didn't realize i was supposed to "do something" regarding this unfunny British left-wing wanker.

However, unlike you, I don't feel a personal connection with Mr. Cohen. How about I just settle for attacking him on the internet and not watching his show?

7/15/18, 12:18 PM


Q: Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite?
A: Woof!

Bad Lieutenant said...

Buwaya, who is this Daleiden?

n.n said...

the US has got so much more to tax that the resources collected are more than comparable. The real US problem is that its degenerate public sector has made applying these resources massively inefficient

Do you think it's limited to the public sector? Education, certainly. The most expensive system on the planet with not even top ten outcomes in critical subjects. Then there is the medical sector, where a regulated insurance industry is effectively single-payer that obfuscates progressive costs and redistributive schemes.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

David Daleiden exposed the inner workings of abortion chambers (i.e. selective-child) and clinical cannibalism (i.e. recycled-child) at Planned Parenthood. In another era, he would have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize and celebrated globally as a human rights leader.

Tina Trent said...

Oxford comma! A lovely term for a lovely act of punctuation. I cannot accept the loss of two spaces between sentences. Standards are collapsing everywhere.

Cohen's perverse exploitation of Americans in Borat was accomplished via thuggery: he got his victims to sign releases thinking they were aiding some sort of cultural exchange, then taped them reacting to him pretending to defecate in the wrong part of their houses, or some other abuse. It was pure prejudice, but the victims were the right type of victims: Christian Americans. The main reaction was fear when the prank emerged -- fear of being seen as prejudiced. He molested their hospitality.

I didn't watch the whole movie. But I do remember some of the targets comporting themselves with decency and kindness towards the people abusing them. And I imagine that Cohen didn't use a great deal of tape where he was simply shown to be an ass towards nice, ordinary Americans. He and Moore are cut from the same cloth -- obsessive projection of their own prejudice onto innocent bystanders. It can't be nice to live inside their skulls.

Narayanan said...

For a bit I had Sacha mixed up with walkaway guy, facially.

buwaya said...

You can look up Daleiden. Its a distinctive name.
There is tons of material online.

HipsterVacuum said...

"Funny how the right will try anything but telling the truth to get their way."

Funny how nobody has beaten Ritmo within an inch of his repulsive excuse for a life like he deserves.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The real US problem is that its degenerate public sector has made applying these resources massively inefficient.

That was by design. The Republican'ts spent 40 years making sure to destroy the workings of the public sector so that they could then point to their foregone conclusion and say, "Look! See, we proved it doesn't work! Now defund it immediately and give everything to our rich/corporate donors instead."

It was like kidnappers who killed their hostage and then took the ransom anyway.

buwaya said...

The US public sector, including all its semi-official and even private appurtenances, is almost exclusively staffed and managed by Democrats.

buwaya said...

Anyway, that statement is absurd even for you, Ritmo.
Thats one for the ages.

California was a one-party state for a very long time, and even when the elected government was actually Republican, decades ago, the public sector was both monolithic and immune. You can chase details and cases all you like.

Michael K said...

" is almost exclusively staffed and managed by Democrats."

Alex Comfort described the US bureaucracy as a "rogue form of private enterprise."

We are fortunate that they are as incompetent as they are.

Can anyone imagine the damage a competent Obama could have accomplished ?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The US public sector, including all its semi-official and even private appurtenances, is almost exclusively staffed and managed by Democrats.

Whatever that's supposed to mean.

buwaya said...

Indeed, in CA, the State Assembly has been held by Democrats since 1959, save for two years (1969-70, 95-96).

buwaya said...

It means precisely that Ritmo.
Almost all the employees and managers are Democrats.

Perhaps you need a definition of "appurtenances"?

I really despise disingenuous argumentation.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Oh no! California's public sector! Just not providing for its citizens to any degree like the massively indebted red state experiment in giving to the rich Kansas is doing.

Ralph L said...

Was Billy Bush fired for cajoling dynamite material from Trump or for not telling Hillary about it?

It seems to me he was the only effective journalist in the 2016 election--without even trying and in the wrong year. Perhaps they drove him out from envy.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Bleeding Kansas. buwaya's model of solvency.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I'm trying to figure out what whiner Special K and buwaya's problems are with California, and then I saw it. They have a surplus. Clearly this goes against every grain of the Republican whiners' priority of putting everything they run into massive debt, saddling it on the backs of the poor and working class, and making sure that the wealthy are well taken care of.

buwaya said...

Kansas has better schools (not much better, but better), and lower poverty than CA.

Check out NAEP.

Howard said...

For the last 35 years, California had 23 years of republican governors. What upset the apple-cart was the hispanical shift from moderate to 100% democrat after prop 187. Also, the term limit initiative pushed by republicans set off a tidal wave of democratic dominance.

Also, the remaining republicans tended to be the backward kind lacking appeal outside of Jefferson and other XX-style districts. sad

buwaya said...

CA state taxation works on a boom and bust cycle, depending a lot on capital gains by the 1%. Its a boom now because of the 2016-17 stock market and the current tech bubble.

This is not the first CA boom-bust in revenues, or even the first in my time here. Every boom, the more expenditure is loaded on, leading to a worse bust the next downturn.

Howard said...

PPPT: Jerry Brown is a fiscal conservative/realist. The next CA Gov has already spent Brown's surplus. Also, the unfunded retirement obligations (which all states have) erases the surplus in a heartbeat.

buwaya said...

The CA Republicans are very bad at going outside their (white) base in CA.

On the other hand the CA Democratic party amounts to a criminal conspiracy, that would be vulnerable to a RICO prosecution. A Mueller-style fishing expedition here would fill many trawlers with Democrat fish.

Bay Area Guy said...

Sasha Baron Cohen is pretty damn funny. I saw Talledega Nights again and he played Ricky Bobby's foil, and, well, damn funny. And Borat was funny too.

buwaya said...

Anyway, the CA public sector has been Democrat since, oh, the 1930s probably, and the biggest bureaucratic expansions happened during Jerry Browns' first terms as governor.

Costs of public services, such as education, were unmitigated by Republican governors as these were out of their control. Most, in the case of education say, were imposed by judicial consent decrees and regulatory findings.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Kansas has better schools (not much better, but better), and lower poverty than CA.

Then why do the people owe it so much fucking money?

Why did they feel they had to cut wealthy taxes so much to bribe wealth to stay?

I'm sure more poor people go to California. There's more opportunity.

We're talking about governments, dumb-dumb. You'd think the first thing a government could figure out to do is NOT to indebt the people to it through a stupid, insolvent budgeting/tax scheme.

Try that one out first. Then tell us about how enriched the evolution-denying residents of Kansas are.

FullMoon said...

Prop 187 Passed 59%-41%, overturned by courts.

Traditional marriage prop 8 passed 52-48. Overturned by court.



"California Proposition 187 (also known as the Save Our State (SOS) initiative) was a 1994 ballot initiative to establish a state-run citizenship screening system and prohibit illegal aliens from using non-emergency health care, public education, and other services in the State of California. Voters passed the proposed law at a referendum on November 8, 1994. The law was challenged in a legal suit and found unconstitutional by a federal district court. In 1999, Governor Gray Davis halted state appeals of this ruling.

Passage of Proposition 187 reflected state residents' concerns about illegal immigration into the United States. Opponents believed the law was discriminatory against illegal immigrants of Hispanic or Asian origin; supporters maintained that their concerns were economic: that the state could not afford to provide social services for so many people who had entered the country illegally or overstayed their visas.[1][2] Republicans' embrace of Proposition 187 has been cited as a key factor for the decline of the Republican Party in California"

buwaya said...

More people with "opportunity" leave California. Internal migration has been strongly negative. So do entrepreneurial businesses leave. Business formation in CA is abysmal.

Read above - the CA budget is boom-and-bust. When CA goes negative, it goes very very negative.

FullMoon said...

More people with "opportunity" leave California. Internal migration has been strongly negative. So do entrepreneurial businesses leave. Business formation in CA is abysmal.

Read above - the CA budget is boom-and-bust. When CA goes negative, it goes very very negative.

7/15/18, 3:30 PM


Modest seventy year old home 2 bedroom 1 bath/common walls in the avenues sold for over 1200/sqft. Offers were from lawyers, doctors and young tech people.
A hard rains gonna fall.

Earnest Prole said...

Despite what the left and right will tell you, California has a wildly capitalistic boom-and-bust economy, with all of the pluses (tremendous innovation and productivity) and minuses (rampant homelessness, profound income inequality) that phrase implies. People come here to get rich, and if they don't they leave and someone else gives it a shot. What could be more American?

William said...

I think Borat was funny. The problem isn't that Cohen is so untalented but rather that his talents and imagination are not broad enough to encompass the failings of his own crowd........Borat is a new kind of comedy archetype. Well and good. But where is the comedy archetype of the kind of apparatchik who arrests Ginsburg and sends her to the Gulag without allowing her to say goodbye to her child. Such a person in the USSR was far more prevalent and destructive in their misdeeds than Borat. It would be impossible for Cohen to make fun of such an apparatchik because he's just one twist of the screw from being such an apparatchik himself.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

The dude's name is Sacha.

Point and laugh.

buwaya said...

Because, EP, that isn't California anymore.
Thats the California of 30 years ago.

Modern California is not a land of innovating startups, but, in the prosperous parts, of massive companies making monopoly profits off their legacy intellectual property.

If you want innovation and social mobility go to Texas.

traditionalguy said...

Ridicule is the left's most powerful weapon. And Cohen has perfected its use on The Deplorables. They are totally destroyed after he gets through with his using their patience and good nature against them to twist them into looking like retarded trash.

But that is the cost of free speech in the USA. England and Canada would execute him without a trial if he tried doing that in those " Fake Democracies"

Howard said...

California has the best slice of geography on the planet and for the most part, it's pretty well unspoiled. This is why rich smart ambitious people are here. It also attracts homeless because it's easier (still not easy) to live rough

Earnest Prole said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
walter said...

How is their train project coming?

Earnest Prole said...

Because, EP, that isn't California anymore. Thats the California of 30 years ago.?

Let’s test your innovation hypothesis, shall we?

In 2015, the last year statistics were available, Texas (with two-thirds of California’s population) produced 9,934 patents to California’s 40,196, a number exceeded worldwide only by Japan's 52,409 patents (three times California’s population).

Patent Counts By Country, State, and Year, U.S. Patent and Trademark Office

daskol said...

From the WaPo article, this sentence, which I could not disagree with more: "We’re fresh out of shame in this country right now."

The Age of That's Not Funny is in fact the The Age of Shame. The carrots are all gone and so are the rest of the sticks. With the destruction, either from within or without, of our religious and civic institutions, all we're left with is shame to keep people on the path.

buwaya said...

The patent flood is just a symptom of what I said above - there is a whole IP industry in CA, and it is dominated by the monopolistic companies. It does not translate to tech, innovation, startups, “creative destruction” or creativity.

Earnest Prole said...

It does not translate to tech, innovation, startups, “creative destruction” or creativity.

Artificial intelligence is on the verge of transforming human existence, but other than that you're surely correct.

I’ll underscore my original point: Contra the right, California is wildly productive and innovative; contra the left, California is wildly inequitable. It’s exactly what you’d expect unless ideology clouds your eyes.

buwaya said...

CA is not “innovative”.

It’s got the consolidated legacy of what was once innovative, bound up in a small set of huge, over-valued companies with monopoly positions. These soak up a great deal of IT talent and keep them in layer-farms churning out IP but few products. There isn’t that horde of startups of the old days, breaking out of the old and bureaucratic and killing off dinosaurs.
The last dinosaurs won that fight. They keep the new species from hatching.

I was here in the old days, and the difference is obvious.

Earnest Prole said...

I was here in the old days, and the difference is obvious.

I moved to California in 1985 and was reliably told its economy was doomed because the difference from the old days was obvious. This year California somehow became the world's fifth-largest economy. In theory there's no difference between theory and practice.

buwaya said...

I came to CA in 1986.

The valley was then suffering from a downturn, as the first round of PC startups were going bust. I was in several auctions of now-collectible equipment. I could have bought a DG-1 or a Grid Compass for nothing. My wife still has an ancient Kaypro.
It recovered, to crash again with the "peace dividend" of 1991, and again with the collapse of the internet bubble in 2001, and again in 2008-09.

But until that last it was a new set of new players, built on the leftover personnel from the failures of the previous boom. But now that dynamic is gone.

rcocean said...

"Q: Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite?
A: Woof!"


I love it when Nuts on the internet write cryptic comments, thinking they're full of "deep meaning"

But this reminds me of a fellow on BHTV who prided himself on talking in circles and getting the BHTV heads - and others - to respond to his comments. He didn't care that he looked like a nut, he just wanted the attention. What that accomplished is anyone's guess, but it made him happy.

So, I hope this response makes you happy.

Matt Sablan said...

"The Cohen/Daily Show "trick" of making conservatives look like idiots?"

-- As far as I know, the Daily Show flatly refuses to let people video their interviews because the key to the "humor" is to edit it. If you watch, there are several edits where they only show the questioner, in which case, I assume, they've spliced in a whole new question/tone to change the response.

Matt Sablan said...

"Say what you will personally about Jon Stewart and the Daily Show, but during the Bush Administration is was very effective cultural and political force for left and against the right"

-- Craig Kilborn's Daily Show was a much better show than the new one, but it wasn't as nakedly partisan.

Bad Lieutenant said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bad Lieutenant said...

So, I hope this response makes you happy.


Sorry, I don't know why I assumed you've seen Reservoir Dogs. I preferred to keep it light and also topical rather than just deploring your anti-Semitism, which gets tedious after awhile.

Also, I believe it's an old English virtue, to avoid complaining about a situation you can't or won't do anything about. I don't know how Cedarford got himself banned from Althouse, but it wasn't for being an anti-Semite. She's fine with anti-Semites. So what's the point of getting upset about it? You're not going to change.

That's my point about SBC. Seriously, nobody expects you to develop successful counters to Leftist tactics, but a manly man like you should be expected to do more than whine, which is exactly what you're doing.

PS Jewish liberal/left tendencies ain't a patch on Catholic liberal/left tendencies, go and do something/whine about that. (And don't get me started on the Irish! My God, are they EVER right?)

rcocean said...

"I don't know how Cedarford got himself banned from Althouse, but it wasn't for being an anti-Semite. She's fine with anti-Semites."

That's a Lie. Althouse is *NOT* Fine with anti-semites, and you can't point to one instance or statement of hers to support that.

She's stated again, and again, that she doesn't censor her comments. And once again, the smear merchants try to twist support for "freedom of speech" into support for bigotry.

That's it. I'm Done.