June 26, 2018

Trump wins the travel ban case.

Here's the PDF of the Supreme Court case, issued just now.
ROBERTS, C. J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which KENNEDY, THOMAS, ALITO, and GORSUCH, JJ., joined. KENNEDY, J., and THOMAS, J., filed concurring opinions. BREYER, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which KAGAN, J., joined. SOTOMAYOR, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which GINSBURG, J., joined.
From the Roberts opinion:
Under the Immigration and Nationality Act, foreign nationals seeking entry into the United States undergo a vetting process to ensure that they satisfy the numerous requirements for admission. The Act also vests the Presi- dent with authority to restrict the entry of aliens whenever he finds that their entry “would be detrimental to the interests of the United States.” 8 U. S. C. §1182(f). Relying on that delegation, the President concluded that it was necessary to impose entry restrictions on nationals of countries that do not share adequate information for an informed entry determination, or that otherwise present national security risks....

By its plain language, §1182(f) grants the President broad discretion to suspend the entry of aliens into the United States. The President lawfully exercised that discretion based on his findings—following a worldwide, multi-agency review—that entry of the covered aliens would be detrimental to the national interest. And plaintiffs’ attempts to identify a conflict with other provisions in the INA, and their appeal to the statute’s purposes and legislative history, fail to overcome the clear statutory language....

Moreover, plaintiffs’ request for a searching inquiry into the persuasiveness of the President’s justifications is inconsistent with the broad statutory text and the deference traditionally accorded the President in this sphere....
In section IV of the opinion the Court looks at"the claim that the Proclamation was issued for the unconstitutional purpose of excluding Muslims." First, the Court finds standing based on the "the alleged real-world effect that the Proclamation has had in keeping them separated from certain relatives who seek to enter the country." Looking at the substantive merits, the question is whether "singling out Muslims for disfavored treatment" violates the Establishment Clause."

At the heart of plaintiffs’ case is a series of statements by the President and his advisers casting doubt on the official objective of the Proclamation. For example, while a candidate on the campaign trail, the President published a “Statement on Preventing Muslim Immigration” that called for a “total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what is going on.” App. 158. That statement remained on his campaign website until May 2017. Id., at 130–131. Then-candidate Trump also stated that “Islam hates us” and asserted that the United States was “having problems with Muslims coming into the country.” Id., at 120–121, 159. Shortly after being elected, when asked whether violence in Europe had affected his plans to “ban Muslim immigration,” the President replied, “You know my plans. All along, I’ve been proven to be right.” Id., at 123.

One week after his inauguration, the President issued EO–1. In a television interview, one of the President’s campaign advisers explained that when the President “first announced it, he said, ‘Muslim ban.’ He called me up. He said, ‘Put a commission together. Show me the right way to do it legally.’” Id., at 125. The adviser said he assembled a group of Members of Congress and lawyers that “focused on, instead of religion, danger.... [The order] is based on places where there [is] substantial evidence that people are sending terrorists into our coun- try.” Id., at 229....

Plaintiffs argue that this President’s words strike at fundamental standards of respect and tolerance, in violation of our constitutional tradition. But the issue before us is not whether to denounce the statements. It is instead the significance of those statements in reviewing a Presidential directive, neutral on its face, addressing a matter within the core of executive responsibility. In doing so, we must consider not only the statements of a particular President, but also the authority of the Presidency itself.

The case before us differs in numerous respects from the conventional Establishment Clause claim. Unlike the typical suit involving religious displays or school prayer, plaintiffs seek to invalidate a national security directive regulating the entry of aliens abroad. Their claim accordingly raises a number of delicate issues regarding the scope of the constitutional right and the manner of proof. The Proclamation, moreover, is facially neutral toward religion. Plaintiffs therefore ask the Court to probe the sincerity of the stated justifications for the policy by reference to extrinsic statements—many of which were made before the President took the oath of office. These various aspects of plaintiffs’ challenge inform our standard of review....

"Any rule of constitutional law that would inhibit the flexibility” of the President “to respond to changing world conditions should be adopted only with the greatest caution,” and our inquiry into matters of entry and national security is highly constrained.... [W]e... will uphold the policy so long as it can reasonably be understood to result from a justification independent of unconstitutional grounds.

Given the standard of review, it should come as no surprise that the Court hardly ever strikes down a policy as illegitimate under rational basis scrutiny.... It cannot be said that it is impossible to “discern a relationship to legitimate state interests” or that the policy is “inexplicable by anything but animus.” Indeed, the dissent can only attempt to argue otherwise by refusing to apply anything resembling rational basis review... The Proclamation is expressly premised on legitimate purposes: preventing entry of nationals who cannot be adequately vetted and inducing other nations to improve their practices.... More fundamentally, plaintiffs and the dissent challenge the entry suspension based on their perception of its effectiveness and wisdom. They suggest that the policy is overbroad and does little to serve national security interests. But we cannot substitute our own assessment for the Executive’s predictive judgments on such matters, all of which “are delicate, complex, and involve large elements of prophecy.”...
AND: The dissenting opinion by Justice Sotomayor (joined by Justice Ginsburg) brings up Korematsu v. United States (1944):
In Korematsu, the Court gave “a pass [to] an odious, gravely injurious racial classification” authorized by an executive order.... As here, the Government invoked an ill-defined national-security threat to justify an exclusionary policy of sweep­ ing proportion.... As here, the exclusion order was rooted in dangerous stereotypes about, inter alia, a particular group’s supposed inability to assimilate and desire to harm the United States.... As here, the Government was unwilling to reveal its own intelligence agencies’ views of the alleged security concerns to the very citizens it purported to protect.... And as here, there was strong evidence that impermissible hostility and animus motivated the Government’s policy.

Although a majority of the Court in Korematsu was willing to uphold the Government’s actions based on a barren invocation of national security, dissenting Justices warned of that decision’s harm to our constitutional fabric....

In the intervening years since Korematsu, our Nation has done much to leave its sordid legacy behind.... By blindly accepting the Government’s misguided invitation to sanction a discrimi­natory policy motivated by animosity toward a disfavored group, all in the name of a superficial claim of national security, the Court redeploys the same dangerous logic underlying Korematsu and merely replaces one “gravely wrong” decision with another. Ante, at 38.

Our Constitution demands, and our country deserves, a Judiciary willing to hold the coordinate branches to ac­count when they defy our most sacred legal commitments. 
The Chief Justice dismissed those words as an effort to get a "rhetorical advantage" and said "Korematsu has nothing to do with this case." I'll add some boldface:
The forcible relocation of U. S. citizens to concentration camps, solely and explicitly on the basis of race, is objectively unlawful and outside the scope of Presidential authority. But it is wholly inapt to liken that morally repugnant order to a facially neutral policy denying certain foreign nationals the privilege of admission....
The Chief uses the occasion to make an important and clear statement about Korematsu:
Korematsu was gravely wrong the day it was decided, has been overruled in the court of history, and—to be clear—“has no place in law under the Constitution.” 323 U. S., at 248 (Jackson, J., dissenting).
AND: How does this case relate to the recently decided Masterpiece Cakeshop case, in which the Court made much of the government's religion-based animus. Only the dissenting opinions mention that case. Breyer mentions it in passing, pointing at the Sotomayor opinion. Sotomayor writes:
Just weeks ago, the Court rendered its decision in Mas­terpiece Cakeshop, 584 U. S. ___, which applied the bed­rock principles of religious neutrality and tolerance in considering a First Amendment challenge to government action.... Those principles should apply equally here. In both instances, the question is whether a gov­ernment actor exhibited tolerance and neutrality in reach­ing a decision that affects individuals’ fundamental reli­ gious freedom.... Unlike in Masterpiece, where the majority consid­ered the state commissioners’ statements about religion to be persuasive evidence of unconstitutional government action... the majority here completely sets aside the President’s charged state­ments about Muslims as irrelevant. That holding erodes the foundational principles of religious tolerance that the Court elsewhere has so emphatically protected, and it tells members of minority religions in our country “‘that they are outsiders, not full members of the political commu­nity.’ ”
ALSO: Breyer (joined by Kagan) says there should be more factfinding, but since that isn't going to happen, he "would, on balance, find the evidence of antireligious bias, including statements on a website taken down only after the President issued the two executive orders preceding the Proclamation... a sufficient basis to set the Proclamation aside."

As for the concurring opinions, first, there's Kennedy, who joins the Roberts opinion "in full," but writes separately to reach out to the dissenters and to cite one of his old opinions:
There may be some common ground between the opinions in this case, in that the Court does acknowledge that in some instances, governmental action may be subject to judicial review to determine whether or not it is “inexplicable by anything but animus,” Romer v. Evans, 517 U. S. 620, 632 (1996), which in this case would be animosity to a religion.
Thomas concurred to add arguments to Roberts's arguments:
Section 1182(f) does not set forth any judicially enforceable limits that constrain the President.... Nor could it, since the President has inherent authority to exclude aliens from the country.... Further, the Establishment Clause does not create an individual right to be free from all laws that a “reasonable observer” views as religious or antireligious.... The plaintiffs cannot raise any other First Amendment claim, since the alleged religious discrimination in this case was directed at aliens abroad.... And, even on its own terms, the plaintiffs’ proffered evidence of anti-Muslim discrimination is unpersuasive.
He also goes on at some length about the nationwide remedy, which he prefers to call the "universal injunction" because the problem isn't the "wide geographic breadth" but "enforcing a policy with respect to anyone, including nonparties."
These injunctions are a recent development, emerging for the first time in the 1960s and dramatically increasing in popularity only very recently. And they appear to conflict with several traditional rules of equity, as well as the original understanding of the judicial role....

No persuasive defense has yet been offered for the practice. Defenders of these injunctions contend that they ensure that individuals who did not challenge a law are treated the same as plaintiffs who did, and that universal injunctions give the judiciary a powerful tool to check the Executive Branch.... But these arguments do not explain how these injunctions are consistent with the historical limits on equity and judicial power. They at best “boi[l] down to a policy judgment” about how powers ought to be allocated among our three branches of government....

If federal courts continue to issue them, this Court is dutybound to adjudicate their authority to do so.

349 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 349 of 349
Matt Sablan said...

Unexpectedly.

readering said...

Remember POTUS recently opined Japanese wartime internment a good thing.

Matt Sablan said...

"Not disappointed. Disappointment would have required hope that the outcome could have been better. There never was any such hope."

-- I honestly thought that it might be 6-3, but... there's really no narrowing you can do on this to horse trade. It just is or isn't.

Matt Sablan said...

"Remember POTUS recently opined Japanese wartime internment a good thing."

-- Haven't heard that outrage. Got a link?

Yancey Ward said...

From the dissent:

"when they defy our most sacred legal commitments."

This right here is the problem with the dissent- we don't have sacred legal commitments to foreigners wanting to migrate into the country. Congress, tomorrow, could write deliberate quotas into the immigration law and get it signed by the President for different groups if it wanted to. It isn't even a true reductio ad absurdum to point out that if the dissenters' argue is valid that it mean literally that any foreigner outside the US has a legal right to come here- that the entire visa process is itself and invalid program if it denies anyone.

The invocation of the the Japanese internment policy is a surprisingly ridiculous non sequitur- surely the dissenters in the present case would not have opposed FDR categorically blocking all migration from Japan and Germany at that time? I am not sure whether or not that last question is rhetorical, however- that is how deranged the dissent truly is.

Qwinn said...

readering:

Romney earned a joint JD-MBA from Harvard in 1975. He immediately became a management consultant and by 1977 was working for Bain & Company. He never practiced law. He only used the MBA half of that degree.

As far as I can tell, Quayle also never practiced law, but you're right, he did earn the degree. Didn't know that. I guess the veep candidates of 1988 traded.

I think the point I'm trying to make still stands. Easily.


n.n said...

Travel deferment.

clint said...

@Ralph L said...
"The whole point of the ban was to prevent terrorists from slipping into the country before better vetting could be implemented. The SCOTUS should have stopped the Hawaiians early in 2017 and then ruled."

They did. First in June, for one of the earlier EOs, and then more fully in December for the replacement EO that Trump signed in September. The so-called "Muslim travel ban" has been in effect all of this year.

Chuck said...

readering said...
Majority and minority closer to one another than either to bigoted DJT.


In a way, it's too bad that Trump didn't just sign an EO that read, "The President is hereby suspending from entry into the United States all Muslims, for a period of 90 days, until Congress issues a report indicating that they have a plan for domestic terrorism."

Because that would have been more reflective of what Trump was talking about. And it wouldn't have lasted a day in federal court. The order enjoining enforcement would have been upheld in the Circuit Court of Appeals, and the Supreme Court would not even have taken it. If they did take it, they would have affirmed, 9-0.

But no one would have helped Trump draft that Order. And it never would have gotten out the door.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Don't mix up chuck and Chuck, they are two different commenters

Yep and I'm the other Mike.

n.n said...

It's a diversity or class ban in the sense of apartheid (i.e. separation) that excludes violent factions of a diversity class, while including other factions of the same diversity class. It's temporary and narrow.

Rusty said...

can you feel it?
can you feel the outrage brewing?
SJWs! Assemble!!!

Balfegor said...

Re: Chuck:

The one and only reason that Trump Travel Ban Number 3.0 survived a court challenge (as it should have) was because by the time that the Trump Administration's lawyers got around to version 3.0, it was completely unlike the stupid things that Trump had been saying. In the end, it was a perfectly legal (if largely meaningless) order.

Even travel ban 1.0 was obviously not a Muslim ban. It left out Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, and Turkey, which are some of the biggest Muslim-majority countries in the world. The countries covered by travel ban 1.0 covered only a fraction of the world's Muslims. If his administration were trying to exclude Muslims as a class, it wasn't doing a very effective job of it, even allowing for the difficulty of tailoring the ban by country, given that countries like India have huge minority Muslim populations.

The most parsimonious explanation here is that they weren't, in fact, trying to exclude Muslims. Which is sort of a "duh" point, but lawyers are expert at playing dumb for advantage.

Mike Sylwester said...

I have said repeatedly that I like Chuck and his comments.

I even like Inga and her comments.

Can't we all just get along!

Bay Area Guy said...

I make the snide, but allegedly humorous comment:

Has Sally Yates been interviewed on this decision? She might want to brush up on Con Law.

Chuck responds with grave seriousness:

She didn't resign over the proclamation that was the subject of this case. She resigned over an Executive Order that was pulled shortly afterward and then abandoned by the Trump Administration.

This is where you lose it, Chuck. Respond to humor with humor, not with parsing and extrapolation. Further, Yates didn't resign, but was fired.

Had she resigned, rather then simply ignoring her duties, she'd acted much more honorably.

From that - you launch into a dig at Althouse:

See? This is what is so fucked up about declaring "Trump wins" in connection with this decision.

Althouse often likes to attack unsubstantiated headlines. This should have been one of those.


This is an unnecessary faceplant.

But, ultimately, it doesn't matter. The SCOTUS decision is what matters. The Thomas concurrence really matters. These idiotic lower level judges need to stay in their lanes.

I'm still a happy, contented, fellow, man!

readering said...

Damn, just learned from stories on protesters that USAG speaking at local legal lunch. Wish I had known so could have gotten ticket and thanked him for standing behind USDAG.

readering said...

Allegedly ....

Big Mike said...

The people who call this a “Muslim ban” are either too lazy to read the majority opinion, or are simply illiterate. Even Breyer’s dissent agrees that as written the law is not that at all. What Breyer, with Kagan’s concurrence, tries to argue is that as enforced it really is a Muslim Bangladesh in disguise. But his argument is full of holes — by his own figures we are continuing to issue visas to Muslims from the countries affected by the EO.

Drago said...

LLR Chuck knows he is beclowning himself terribly in his efforts to provide cover for his lefty hack operational allies so he has reverted to constructing strawman hypotheticals in order to create an improved rhetorical scenario with which to attack Trump.

And, naturally, as always, his hypothetical lines up perfectly with the far left narrative.

Once again, as always, unexpectedly.

Bay Area Guy said...

"Remember POTUS recently opined Japanese wartime internment a good thing."

It was a bad thing, but remember the context:

1941: Japan bombs Pearl Harbor
1942: FDR interns American citizens of Japanese descent.
1945: US nukes Japan twice.

Were you born Yesterday? Sometimes in war, times get rough.

Big Mike said...

Yep and I'm the other Mike.

But how big are you?

Clark said...

"They at best 'boi[l] down to a policy judgment' about how powers ought to be allocated among our three branches of government...."

What, I asked myself, could "boi[l]" be changed from in the original quote? Althouse is (correctly) quoting Thomas, who is quoting something he wrote in Perez v. Mortgage Bankers' Assn. The text in Perez is "boils down to a policy judgment of questionable validity." So shouldn't that be "boil[] down" rather than "boi[l] down"?

Drago said...

Mike Sylvester: "Can't we all just get along!"

As Mario Puzo wrote in "The Godfather", we dont have to like each other. Its enough that we dont kill each other.

Chuck said...

Balfegor said...
Re: Chuck:

The one and only reason that Trump Travel Ban Number 3.0 survived a court challenge (as it should have) was because by the time that the Trump Administration's lawyers got around to version 3.0, it was completely unlike the stupid things that Trump had been saying. In the end, it was a perfectly legal (if largely meaningless) order.

Even travel ban 1.0 was obviously not a Muslim ban. It left out Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, and Turkey, which are some of the biggest Muslim-majority countries in the world. The countries covered by travel ban 1.0 covered only a fraction of the world's Muslims. If his administration were trying to exclude Muslims as a class, it wasn't doing a very effective job of it, even allowing for the difficulty of tailoring the ban by country, given that countries like India have huge minority Muslim populations.

The most parsimonious explanation here is that they weren't, in fact, trying to exclude Muslims. Which is sort of a "duh" point, but lawyers are expert at playing dumb for advantage.


Your first two paragraphs are true, and even though that has been written many times, it is good to see it written again!

Trump talked about a (clearly unenforceable, if not undraftable) "Muslim ban." But it was never a ban on Muslims, and the Administration's lawyers went into court declaring up and down that it was not a Muslim ban and the courts should not pay any attention to what Trump's campaign statements had been.

And I agree. I agree, on the law. All of the law that was involved, including the President's very broad discretion in matters of border security and immigration. (A "Muslim ban" would have been one of the few things that would have been so stupid and offensive that it could not have been supported by even the most conservative federal judges.)

I really have never understood why the left didn't declare victory early on in that aspect. Trump never got anything like a "Muslim ban." Trump's own DoJ lawyers said so.

Trumpit said...

Justice Kennedy, you're no Jack Kennedy. Clarence Thomas is out of his cotton-picking Uncle Tom mind as usual. Scalito is a clone of Scalia who met his demise hunting for cock . "Scalia died in his sleep at age 79, his body discovered on the morning of February 13, 2016 in his room at Cibolo Creek Ranch in Shafter, Texas. He had gone quail hunting the afternoon before, and then dined." How delightfully ironic: Scalia, a notorious homophobe, died in the pursuit of cock.

Matt Sablan said...

"I really have never understood why the left didn't declare victory early on in that aspect."

-- Because the left didn't want to stop a "Muslim Ban." They wanted to bloody Trump's nose and force more liberal immigration policy through judicial fiat.

readering said...

Was I born yesterday?

Mommy, mommy ....

Jupiter said...

Just for the record, it should have been a Muslim ban. Muslims are, by definition, willing members of an organization that seeks the overthrow of the constitutional government of the United States by force. Further, their religion teaches them that they have the right to kill or enslave anyone who tries to stop them. Why on Earth would we let them into our country while they still profess voluntary adherence to this gangster ideology?

Browndog said...

Just think of Chuck as Garage Mahal from across the lake. I do like contrasting opinions. Though I'd rather they be honest opinions.

exhelodrvr1 said...

This is such a common-sense issue - the left should be completely embarrassed.

Drago said...

Trumpit: "Justice Kennedy, you're no Jack Kennedy. "

True. Justice Kennedy is not addicted to drugs/booze, not hooking up with mafia kingpin girlfiend hookers, stealing national elections with daddys money and connections, etc...

Balfegor said...

Re: Bay Area Guy:

There's a relevant piece of context you've left out there, which is that immediately after Pearl Harbor, a Japanese-American born in the US turned traitor to assist a downed pilot on Niihau. I don't know how widely it was reported at the time (it was known by the public by the end of the war, certainly), but you can kind of see how that would raise some concerns on the part of the government. As Churchill put it:

We have found it necessary to take measures of increasing stringency, not only against enemy aliens and suspicious characters of other nationalities, but also against British subjects who may become a danger or a nuisance should the war be transported to the United Kingdom. I know there are a great many people affected by the orders which we have made who are the passionate enemies of Nazi Germany. I am very sorry for them, but we cannot, at the present time and under the present stress, draw all the distinctions which we should like to do.

I have no doubt there was racism involved in how broadly the policy was drawn up. California at the time was even more anti-Asian than it is today, and what I've heard from family friends who were sent to the camps is that they lost their homes and their stores and all their possessions as a result. But the measures taken weren't actually all that unusual, at the time.

Drago said...

I am going to coin a "LLR Chuck's Rule" whereby noone is allowed to comment on any subject for which they are not properly credentialed.

Naturally, this will require "Brian Stelter republican" Chuck to shut up about any international business/trade/tariffs threads.

Also, given his pathetically failed electoral political analysis he will need to avoid any thread involving political analysis.

Quite frankly, its for his own good.

Anonymous said...

Chuck apparently feels that because we are "dumb fuck non-lawyers" when we find a lawyer who argues, based upon statute, that Trump does have the power to turn away immigrants at the border we are too stupid to be able to point out what we read or refer to it. He prefers some metaphor about truck drivers while ignoring the point we made was based upon lawyerly analysis. It was not our opinion it was a lawyer's opinion and since you are willing only to attend to lawyers I don't understand why you won't recognize what "our" lawyer had to say.

Yesterday, of course, his defense was that we didn't know anything about asylum - which of course no one had mentioned. Neither does he recall that given his remark and a little research, I admitted that I was incorrect about there not being instances when illegal immigrants had due process rights. Further research which apparently Chuck feels dumb fuck non-lawyers like me are incapable of, revealed at least two conditions ( defined by statute) when illegal immigrants can be turned away at the border with no due process requirement. So today he falls back on the fact that I am not a truck mechanic so I have to be too stupid to have actually found that information.

I give up. Apparently a lawyer in Hicksville, MI with a degree most likely from Bumfuck U will only take his legal opinions from the chief justice. As far as engine mechanics are concerned I suspect Chuck doesn't even know which end contains the engine. Chuck is definitely the lawyer-type that Shakespeare had in mind.

Chuck said...

Big Mike said...
The people who call this a “Muslim ban” are either too lazy to read the majority opinion, or are simply illiterate. Even Breyer’s dissent agrees that as written the law is not that at all. What Breyer, with Kagan’s concurrence, tries to argue is that as enforced it really is a Muslim Bangladesh in disguise. But his argument is full of holes — by his own figures we are continuing to issue visas to Muslims from the countries affected by the EO.


But of course it is for one reason; that Trump's early campaign featured the dramatic statement, read aloud by Trump, about a "complete and total shutdown of Muslims entering the United States..."

And in true Trump fashion it kicked off a firestorm of angry protests, which energized Trump supporters, and Trump refused to back down or moderate the language.

And when he was elected, Trump wanted something, anything, that might give the appearance of his having followed through on a campaign pledge or whatever anybody wants to call it.

So Trump put out the word -- wasn't Giuliani called in to help? -- that he wanted some sort of order drafted on the subject. And they first turned out the little Bannon/Miller clusterfuck of an EO that led to all of the airport protests. And then they got to Ban "2.0," gave up on that while in court, and finally came the Proclamation that was the subject of this Supreme Court case. Each time, getting farther and farther away from anything like a "Muslim ban" until it was clearly an order tailored to several nations whose own internal security created valid security concerns on the part of the U.S., without regard to "Muslims."

readering said...

I studied Komatsu for law school research paperback in 1980. Much more archival material available now. Clear that government argued risks to S CT in bad faith based upon its available knowledge.

readering said...

Korematsu

readering said...

Admittedly, the Japanese campaign in months after Pearl Harbor one of most spectacular in world military history in terms of territory taken in time taken with forces available (bulk of army tied up with China, USSR, Korea).

Vance said...

I wonder: Chuck hates TrumpHitler so bad.... why is Chuck still around? Or Inga, ARM, or the rest?

Trumps the walking talking embodiment of evil, worse than Hitler--which all the above have assured us is true, repeatedly. Trump has nothing but evil motives and is bigoted, racist, etc etc to the core.

So. Given that is true... why isn't Chuck's head swinging from a lamppost if Trump is so evil? Why hasn't Inga taken a ride on Pinochet express? How on earth is Trumpit not inhaling some Zylon B?

For being Hitler, Trump sure is a very ineffective dictator.

Chuck said...

Khesanh, I called you out because you wrote this:

"Since they are not citizens they have no 'due process rights' under our Constitution. That much is obvious."


Since then, in your desperation to be not quite so wrong, and in your equal desperation to try to make Trump seem reasonable, you've spent I-don't-know-how-much time researching the cases and statutes that certainly do allow for expedited removal, of some illegal aliens, under some circumstances, without a hearing.

You have no doubt seen the complexity of all of the various federal statutes, executive orders and the case law that governs the wide variety of cases. Unless you are even dumber than I can imagine, you have now discovered that under some circumstances, federal case law does indeed grant certain due process rights to non-citizens and even to persons who entered the U.S. illegally. Indeed, the real stupidity of your opening line is seen in the fact that your "non-citizens have no due process rights" would have to be applied to non-citizens who are in the U.S. legally. You'd be laughed out of court if you tried to suggest that a non-citizen in the U.S. legally had "no due process rights."

I would have thought that by now, with my urging, you might have figured out that it was wrong to have claimed as you did that "non-citizens they have no 'due process rights' under our Constitution..." But you seem to have still not gotten it.

I've had some dumb and dispiriting exchanges with Althouse commenters in the Trump era, but this one with you rates near the top.

Bay Area Guy said...

Admittedly, the Japanese campaign in months after Pearl Harbor one of most spectacular in world military history in terms of territory taken in time taken with forces available (bulk of army tied up with China, USSR, Korea).

And, how, pray tell, do you think this spectacular Japanese military thrust influenced the minds of Prez Frankie Roosevelt and Guv Earl Warren, and the military policy decision-makers in DC and Cali, after Congress had just declared war on Japan?

You think FDR's own appointed SCOTUS justices would have upended the policy? Fat chance.



Birkel said...

I called this one 16 months ago.
I will read Chuck*s comments when I have a moment to type "I told you so."

*fopdoodle extraordinaire

ccscientist said...

As always, with critics you have to watch the pea under the thimble. The Trump "travel ban" actually was merely requiring more careful vetting of immigrants from countries known to be big sources of terrorists. It was not a "ban" of muslims. And remember, North Korea is on the list and the list was compiled by the Obama White House.

Chuck said...

Vance said...
I wonder: Chuck hates TrumpHitler so bad.... why is Chuck still around? Or Inga, ARM, or the rest?

Trumps the walking talking embodiment of evil, worse than Hitler--which all the above have assured us is true, repeatedly. Trump has nothing but evil motives and is bigoted, racist, etc etc to the core.

So. Given that is true... why isn't Chuck's head swinging from a lamppost if Trump is so evil? Why hasn't Inga taken a ride on Pinochet express? How on earth is Trumpit not inhaling some Zylon B?

For being Hitler, Trump sure is a very ineffective dictator.


Vance, you are the King of Writing Stuff That I Never Said.

I've never once compared Trump to Hitler. But I did laugh my ass off, about Ivana Trump's story that Trump kept a copy of Hitler's speeches near his bedside.

And I don't ever recall making any substantive allegation that Trump is a racist, although I have noted that Trump has said some laughably, crazed, racist things ("I don't want black people counting my money; I want little guys wearing yarmulkes counting my money...) and also that the federal government accused Trump of racial discrimination in housing in the 1970's.

mikeski said...

For being Hitler, Trump sure is a very ineffective dictator.

He's a subtle dictator. He knows that forcing doctrinaire Leftists to live in his country is a fate worse than death.

Phil 314 said...


Blogger FIDO said...
"One heart attack from 6-3 decisions."

Can the Dems hold up the SC nomination process for two years?

Phil 314 said...

The SC keeps handing back authority to the Executive and legislative branches. If only the Legislative branch would reclaim its prime position as the constitution intended.

Bay Area Guy said...

Frankly, I would accept hordes of unskilled, Latin-American immigrants into our country, if we could simultaneously export hordes of white, liberal, Beta-Male millennials and their university ombudsmen to some other country.


Drago said...

"Sally Yates republican" Chuck: "But of course it is for one reason; that Trump's early campaign featured the dramatic statement, read aloud by Trump, about a "complete and total shutdown of Muslims entering the United States..."

Irrelevant.

Utterly irrelevant.

But your flacking for your democrat operational allies is once again duly noted.

Bay Area Guy said...

@Balfegor,

Regarding the Japanese internment camps during WWII, you write, "But the measures taken weren't actually all that unusual, at the time."

Yeah, that's my only point. I'm not defending or criticizing FDR's EO from 80 years after the fact. The question is, what was FDR facing in early 1942, after our Pacific Fleet was hammered at Pearl Harbor.

And, yes, as you note, there were in fact Japanese spy rings both in Hawaii and California. No doubt. One famous Commie spy, Richard Sorge, a German, literally re-directed a potential Japanese strike against USSR from the East to the doomed Pearl Harbor bombing -- but that's a separate story.

I guess Sotomayor's blabbering about Koretmatsu as if it were self-evidently a vile, unconstitutional decision irks me, because she is ignorant about history.

Judges didn't win WWII for us -- the President, Generals, Industrialists and fighting men did.

Chuck said...

Drago said...
"Sally Yates republican" Chuck: "But of course it is for one reason; that Trump's early campaign featured the dramatic statement, read aloud by Trump, about a "complete and total shutdown of Muslims entering the United States..."

Irrelevant.

Utterly irrelevant.


It was technically irrelevant to the constitutionality of the third and final travel ban.

But I submit that Trump's campaign statement was the reason that the whole series of orders was pursued. Essentially Trump saying, "Get me something like that. Whatever."

Bay Area Guy said...

Nobody gives a fuck about campaign statements -- after the election is won.

You have all these dispshit lower court judges yammering about campaign statements to show "animus" against a disfavored group, which they think means something Constitutionally.

Executive power -- Article 2. That actually means something.

It means, "stay the fuck home" to the groups of immigrants we don't want.

Big Mike said...

@readering, I think three unfortunate things combined to make Japanese-American internment during World War II inevitable. The first was the remnants of anti-Asian discrimination on the West Coast going back to when Chinese laborers were imported to work on the transcontinental railroad. The second was FDR’s perpetual desire to be seen as always doing something, right or wrong, good or bad. But hands down the biggest event was the Ni’ihau incident. One of the Imperial Japanese airmen who participated in the attack on Pearl Harbor was shot down and forced to crash land his plane on a small island in the Hawaiian chain called Ni’ihau. Local agricultural workers who were native Hawaiians captured him, but didn’t know what to do with him because word of the attack hadn’t reached the small island. While they were trying to contact authorities, the captured pilot was able to persuade three local workers of Japanese descent to free him and help him acquire weapons and hostages. This precipitated a battle between native Hawaiians on one side and the pilot and his three accomplices on the other which ended with the pilot killed, one accomplice committing suicide, and the other two in custody, plus one native Hawaiian wounded.

I don’t know whether anti-Asian prejudice, by itself, would have resulted in internment camps. But Ni’ihau made it pretty much inevitable.

Drago said...

LLR Chuck continues his transparent spinning in support of leftist BS re: the travel bans and executive authority.

But thats okay Chuck. You have long relinquished any and all credibility. And rightfully so.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Ralph L said...

The whole point of the ban was to prevent terrorists from slipping into the country before better vetting could be implemented.


Indeed.

Leftists would rather call ICE and ordinary Americans "terrorists" than actual potential radical Islamists.

buwaya said...

Re the Japanese Internment, I have my own opinions.

Terrible things are always done in war, and the US did enormously worse things in WWII than lock up some of its own citizens for a couple of years. The obsession with this particular wrong thing is beyond bizarre.

As for what prompted this - the first US military experience in WWII, note, was mainly in the 1941-42 Philippine campaign. That's where US forces first met the enemy on intimate terms and had an opportunity to learn their true capabilities. USAFFE sent home extensive reports. Many of these concerned the activities of Japanese intelligence organizations, which were deployed en masse. There were hundreds if not thousands of "sleepers".

And, moreover, the loyalty of a very large Japanese immigrant group was tested. The Philippines had several tens of thousands of Japanese residents. These universally sided with their compatriots. This too was known to USAFFE.

wholelottasplainin said...

Vance said...
I wonder: Chuck hates TrumpHitler so bad.... why is Chuck still around? Or Inga, ARM, or the rest?

*****************

In the words of an old Rolling Stones song, they come "for their fair share of abuse."

Jupiter said...

Blogger Chuck said...

'In a way, it's too bad that Trump didn't just sign an EO that read, "The President is hereby suspending from entry into the United States all Muslims, for a period of 90 days, until Congress issues a report indicating that they have a plan for domestic terrorism."'

Actually, it would have been better if he had made it permanent. As he has every legal right to do.

Jupiter said...

"Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."

He could exclude left-handed basketball players, were he so inclined.

Anonymous said...

Interesting that the Robert's opinion today rests significantly on 8 U.S.C. §1182(f) of the U.S. Code that Chuck pooh-pooed this "dumbfuck non-lawyer" for pointing out that it gave the President the power to exclude immigrants. As I am reading CJ Roberts opinion now it is clear to me that there is the same basis for halting immigration through Mexico.

readering said...

No doubt fears real in 1942. But Japanese treated differently on mainland than on Hawaii, and differently from Germans and Italians.

And government not straight with S Ct.

I believe the travel case, up on pi, is remanded to district court, where it could continue. Interesting to see if any discovery available from government to plaintiffs.

mccullough said...

The immigration act of 1924 severely restricted immigration in the US. It also put a quota percentage based on the 1990 census (what immigration was allowed was divvied up among the Germans, Irish, Italians, etc.). Arabs were banned. Africans were banned. And Japanese were also banned (as Chinese had been in late 1800s).

As of 1941, no Japanese had immigrated to the US in almost 20 years.

Today, Japan still allows no immigration. They want to remain Japanese (even with their low fertility rate).

So right now, Japan has a White Ban (and Black Nan and Mudlim ban, etc).

The Japanese government and people believe Korematsu was correctly decided.



PackerBronco said...


Blogger Gahrie said...
I'd like to see non-lawyers appointed to the court...nothing in the Constitution says we have to be ruled by Harvard and Yale lawyers.

=================

If that were to happen you would have Supreme Court judges ruling on their own political whims rather than the law and the constitution and it would ...


.... oh wait.

Trumpit said...

"The whole point of the ban was to prevent terrorists from slipping into the country before better vetting could be implemented."

It's called collective punishment. That's something the Nazis were good at.
You look like you worked at a women's camp. The shades are a nice touch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_guards_in_Nazi_concentration_camps

Larvell said...

I'm very disappointed in Kagan. I had held out hopes that she (and perhaps Breyer -- definitely not Ginsburg or Sotomayor) would recognize that the court should pump the brakes on Trumplaw. But in the end, she went with her base.

And not very logically, either. The Breyer/Kagan dissent focuses entirely on the waiver provisions, and their reasoning is that, if the government is granting waivers to individuals from the listed countries, that would tend to demonstrate that the order was not driven by anti-Muslim animus. See dissent, p. 2-3 ("And that fact would help to rebut the First Amendment claim that the Proclamation rests upon anti-Muslim bias rather than security need. Finally, of course, the very fact that Muslims from those countries would enter the United States (under Proclamation-provided exemptions and waivers) would help to show the same thing.").

But that exact same reasoning would apply to the 92% of Muslims who are from countries that are not covered by the order at all, and who thus freely enter the country. If admission of Muslims is relevant to show lack of animus, there is no reason whatsoever why the focus should be solely on Muslims from countries subject to the proclamation. If anything, failure to grant lots of waivers to people from those countries, while simultaneously admitting people from other Muslim countries, would tend to show that the reason for the order is country-specific, rather than religion-specific.

PackerBronco said...

Blogger Unknown said...
... remember, North Korea is on the list and the list was compiled by the Obama White House.

===========

Ain't a lot of Muslims in North Korea methinks, which just proves how Trump is trying to oppress another minority.

Sebastian said...

It may be useful to restate the key provision, cited by the Chief Justice, and of course, long ago, on this very blog:

"(f) Suspension of entry or imposition of restrictions by President

Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate. Whenever the Attorney General finds that a commercial airline has failed to comply with regulations of the Attorney General relating to requirements of airlines for the detection of fraudulent documents used by passengers traveling to the United States (including the training of personnel in such detection), the Attorney General may suspend the entry of some or all aliens transported to the United States by such airline."

Whenever. The President finds. Any. As he shall deem necessary. Suspend the entry. All or any. Impose any.

This is about as plain as it gets.

That progs try to evade even this, without a single good-faith argument, demonstrates their political corruption.

Text doesn't matter. Meaning doesn't matter. Precedent doesn't matter. Congressional intent doesn't matter. The rule of law doesn't matter. Only politics matters, and the sheer lust to power.

They are one vote away from corrupting the rest of us.

mccullough said...

The “Germans” in America, like the “Italians” in America had fought in wars on behalf of the US before 1941.

To this day, German Americans are the largest ethnic group in the US (followed by African Americans, then Irish Americans).

Historical hindsight is 20/20. It’s very easy to morally grandstand now. Unlike Roberts and the other lawyers in robes, FDR had some serious responsibilities. He didn’t liquidate the Japanese like Hitler or Stalin would have. He was not a monster.

We could not win WW2 with the unrealistic moral preening douchebags like Roberts display today. 500,000 Americans were killed in WW2. No Japanese Americans were killed in the camps.

Drago said...

Khesan 0802: "Interesting that the Robert's opinion today rests significantly on 8 U.S.C. §1182(f) of the U.S. Code that Chuck pooh-pooed this "dumbfuck non-lawyer" for pointing out that it gave the President the power to exclude immigrants."

You have different objectives.

You are using logic, our constitution and the law to arrive at a conclusion.

LLR Chuck is desperately spinning to find some way to support the operational desires of the libs/left while apparently paying lip service to, you know, the actual law.

That alone explains why LLR Chuck keeps veering back to lefty talking points.

Amadeus 48 said...

Regarding Korematsu, an investigative journalist named Gus Russo wrote a book about the Jacob Arvey Westside political machine and its connections to the Chicago mob called "Supermob". A prominent actor in the sale of property seized from enemy aliens was a Chicago tax lawyer named David Bazelon, who later became chief judge of the DC Circuit Court of Appeals. If 20% of the stuff that Russo says about Bazelon is true (insider sweetheart deals, kickbacks, etc.) that guy belonged in jail, not on the DC Circuit.
Bazelon was a mentor to a lot of prominent lawyers, including Alan Dershowitz, Martha Minow, and John Koskinan. Today, he would be the ultimate swamp creature. His grandaughter is Emily Bazelon.

Amadeus 48 said...

Larvell--Do you think Kagan wants people chanting outside her condo or shooting at her at softball games? Does Breyer? They couldn't go with the majority on this one.

Trumpit said...

"But in the end, she went with her base."

"base" What are you talking about? She has a lifetime appointment to the bench. I'm tired of all the right-wing partisan nonsensical talk around here. You trolls know who you are. Achtung! I vant to see your papers.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

I'm enjoying seeing our very own Lifelong Incel from the Bowe Berdahl wing of the Republican Party squeal like the little bitch he is today. As he does most day's when Trump continues slapping around his beloved democrats.

Crying to mama didn't work for you did, it Chuck?

Sad.

tim in vermont said...

Achtung! I vant to see your papers.

Oops, you let the mask slip there for a second, little Nazi.

Michael Fitzgerald said...

In 1941, a significant majority of Japanese nationals and Americans of Japanese descent openly supported the government and military of Japan. The Yokohama Specie Bank of San Francisco contributed significant financial aid to Japan. Individual American citizens and residents of Japanese descent donated money and materials for the Imperial Army war machine. The west coast of the United States, particularly California, was the scene of constant subversive espionage activities, including local Japanese fisherman providing Japanese Navy with soundings of ocean floor depths and surfaces. After the internment, espionage activities such as shore based signaling dropped to nil. The internment of Japanese on the west coast was absolutely necessary justified. Reversing Korematsu is a major victory for the enemies of America and the traitors and 5tb Column agents of the anti-American Democrat Party.

tim in vermont said...

t's called collective punishment.

There is no right for foreigners to come to the United States and denying them access is not punishment, anymore than you being rejected by a sexual partner is a "punishment."

Milwaukie Guy said...

After all this spirited discussion, I had to Wikipedia Korematsu. The decision was 6-3. Six FDR-appointed justices upheld mass detention, while two FDR justices along with the sole Hoover-appointed justice dissented.

I also remember it was the progressive Wilson who holds the record for the largest suppression of radicals in the U.S., the Palmer Raids.

Those darn Democrats!

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

@Big Mike I’m about average for my family, six foot even, shorter than some and taller than others. But on the fourth dimension, time, I think I’m a pretty Early Mike around here. Maybe the first “Mike” although there were two Michaels and a modified Mike or two, like You.

Original Mike said...

”Maybe the first “Mike””

Ahh, no.

Chuck said...

Khesanh 0802 said...
Interesting that the Robert's opinion today rests significantly on 8 U.S.C. §1182(f) of the U.S. Code that Chuck pooh-pooed this "dumbfuck non-lawyer" for pointing out that it gave the President the power to exclude immigrants. As I am reading CJ Roberts opinion now it is clear to me that there is the same basis for halting immigration through Mexico.


You keep saying stupid non-legal shit; worse yet, you keep misquoting me.

I was never debating 8 USC Sec. 1182 with you. I called you out on one stupid and indefensible thing that you wrote. You wrote, "Since they are not citizens they have no 'due process rights' under our Constitution. That much is obvious." That's not "obvious." It isn't even true. There at plenty of circumstances in which non-citizens are accorded due process rights.

That is how our dispute began. I was right, you were wrong. I'm still right, and you're still wrong, and now you're wandering around trying to debate all sorts of things that I never had any intention of, or interest in, debating.

You claimed that it was "obvious" that under the Constitution, non-citizens have no due process rights. You were wrong.

Original Mike said...

”I'm tired of all the right-wing partisan nonsensical talk around here.”

Not tired enough to leave, apparently.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Trumpit - do you actually have a working brain?

Bay Area Guy said...

Professor Jonathan Turley -- a liberal -- has a nice article up, "Supreme Court Hands Predictable Win on Travel Ban

Money quotes:

1. "What was unprecedented was the degree to which courts relied on campaign statements and tweets by Trump to rule that the entry limits were based on religious animus. The ruling properly returns the courts, and others, to basic principles of legal process."

2. The lower court judges are not the only ones rebuked in this decision. The ultimate “Red Hen moment” was the order of former acting Attorney General Sally Yates to bar Justice Department lawyers from defending the policy. Indeed, if anything, this was a “Red Hen moment” in Yates refusing service. The difference is that Yates denied a president the service of thousands of Justice Department lawyers in defense of a federal policy."

3. It was manifestly untrue that there were not good faith arguments to support the policies as shown by dissenting lower court judges, and now a majority of the Supreme Court. Yates manufactured the conflict by ignoring review of the career staff of the Justice Department office of legal counsel, which found the president did, in fact, have the authority. Yates simply said that she was not convinced that the order was “wise or just” or “lawful.” She simply declared that she was acting on her duty to “always seek justice and stand for what is right.”


Read the whole thing.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Everything is Nazi when you don't have a working brain.

Jon Ericson said...

I think we have Yin and Yang Marks.
Yin is negative, dark, and feminine, Yang positive, bright, and masculine.
Evil Mark/Good Mark?
Sort of like: Evil Chuck/Good chuck.

readering said...

I'm very disappointed in Kennedy. With two to go, not a single 5-4 decision with Kennedy joining united liberal wing. (Roberts twice and Gorsuch (!) once; RBG (!) joined him on the right once.)

Guy on Slate reading his defeatist writings this term as a sign he's retiring. I think that reads too much.

Jupiter said...

Chuck said...

"You claimed that it was "obvious" that under the Constitution, non-citizens have no due process rights. You were wrong."

Chuck, it is fucking obvious that under the Constitution, non-citizens do not have due process rights. Not a single one. If they breathe, they do so at our sufferance. Even you should be able to comprehend that. I think it's that big dick in your mouth.

jim said...

Trump hating libtard here.

I was offended by Trump's travel bans, but I am not the least upset by this ruling.

Trump walked into office and immediately set this policy from a position of bigotry, and to feed red meat to his benighted base. Yet, minus his motivation and rhetoric, the policy is within reason.

The Supremeses decision is perfectly sensible: the President has this power over our border policy. The fact that this President is an ass does not nullify that power.

jim said...

hey Jupiter, such bullshit you spew

Bay Area Guy said...

Welcome, @Jim Harvey!

Excellent distinction you make between opposing Trump politically (fair game) and opposing him judicially (often moronic).

It's ok to be a libtard. And it's ok to hate Trump. The dissenting members of the SCOTUS and the bevy of lower court judges who bollox themselves up over campaign statements could stand to benefit from your wisdom.

As to emphasis on motivation and rhetoric, well, we can work that.

Balfegor said...

re: mccullough:

He didn’t liquidate the Japanese like Hitler or Stalin would have. He was not a monster.

Stalin didn't liquidate them either . . . in the 1930's, while Japanese and Soviet military forces were fighting a kind of quasi-war, Stalin had Koreans living in the border region forcibly relocated to Kazakhstan, far away from the front. Koreans are sore about this even today, but it's not really a mystery why the Soviets were concerned that Korean ethnic settlers might be a vehicle for Japanese infiltration. The Japanese authorities counted Koreans (and Taiwanese) as "Japanese" for statistical purposes (about 2/3 of the "Japanese" in Manchukuo were actually ethnic Koreans), and they had been the point of the spear in Japanese colonisation of Manchuria. Conflicts between Korean colonists and native Chinese escalating to riots and reprisals in both China and Korea were a significant part of the build-up in tensions in advance of the Mukden Incident and the full-scale invasion of Manchuria later in 1931.

Trumpit said...

"There is no right for foreigners to come to the United States and denying them access is not punishment, anymore than you being rejected by a sexual partner is a 'punishment.'"

It's clearly a selective, racist, anti-Muslim ban without logic or justification. I say that foreigners are welcome to come to the United States, and you should open your heart, hearth, and home to them. You're a hater like trump, so go away like in banishment from decent society. Deplorables don't count, not even the deplorables on the Supreme Court or in the White House.

wholelottasplainin said...

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...
Trumpit - do you actually have a working brain?

***************************

To paraphrase Squidward on Spongebob:

"Trumpit, if I had a dollar for every brain you DON'T have, I would have...ONE dollar."

Rabel said...

An interesting footnote from Sotomayor:

7. It is important to note, particularly given the nature of this case, that many consider “using the term ‘alien’ to refer to other human beings” to be “offensive and demeaning.” I use the term here only where necessary “to be consistent with the statutory language” that Congress has chosen and “to avoid any confusion in replacing a legal term of art with a more appropriate term.”

Balfegor said...

Re: Jupiter:

Chuck, it is fucking obvious that under the Constitution, non-citizens do not have due process rights.

Uh, look at the 14th Amendment:

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The drafters distinguished between persons and citizens. Persons -- including foreigner non-citizens -- do, in fact, get due process of law. If you're just going to go off of the language of the Constitution, the argument isn't really over whether they get due process (they obviously do), but (a) whether the right to enter the US is covered by the due process guarantee, and (b) what "due process" amounts to. I don't know the law in this area, but I do recall that a lot of citizens' rights (like non-citizens' rights) are in practice more limited in the border zone.

Jon Ericson said...

Wise.

Jon Ericson said...

If you can get past the paywall...
Due Process for Undocumented Immigrants, Explained

Balfegor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chuck said...

Jupiter said...
Chuck said...

"You claimed that it was "obvious" that under the Constitution, non-citizens have no due process rights. You were wrong."

Chuck, it is fucking obvious that under the Constitution, non-citizens do not have due process rights. Not a single one. If they breathe, they do so at our sufferance. Even you should be able to comprehend that. I think it's that big dick in your mouth.


Just think of what nonsense this is.

Taken to its illogical conclusion, the notion that all non-citizens have no due process rights would mean that a non-citizen who was visiting the United States on a student visa or a work visa or an ordinary travel visa, would have no due process rights.

What a stupid assertion. A German car engineer with an H1B visa walking down the street in Palo Alto, California. No due process rights?!? A Syrian surgery resident with a student visa on his way home from the hospital. No due process rights? A Somali refugee who has applied for U.S. citizenship under a variety of U.S., international and treaty law. No due process rights? An Irish retiree living in the U.S. pursuant to a green card with her children who are U.S. citizens. No due process rights? But that's too easy.

Let's take a much harder case.

What about an accused terrorist, being held by the U.S. military, off U.S. soil, as something like an "illegal combatant." We know that such a character doesn't enjoy a full range of constitutional rights. But can he be denied ALL due process rights? Does such a case prove that "non-citizens do not have due process rights...Not a single one..."?

Welp; there was Boumediene v. Bush, 553 US 723 (2008). Where, under the Constitution, even the most dangerous-imaginable-non-citizen-accused-terrorist-held-offshore-in-a-military-prison kind of guy had habeas rights.

Bay Area Guy said...

Can you imagine if Janus comes down this week, knocking out forced union dues for Govt unions, and then Kennedy announces his retirement?

I might hit a state of walking Nirvana, man.

Balfegor said...

Sorry, put the wrong Fifth Amendment text in (draft not final). The actual Fifth Amendment reads:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

So it's not just states; federal government is also bound to provide due process to "persons" (including non-citizens) as well.

narciso said...

yes, chuck that was an embarrassing denial of the eisentrager and quirin precedents, re detention of unlawful combatants, compare and contrast one year and a half later:

https://reason.com/blog/2017/02/06/despite-the-tro-the-legal-arguments-agai

Trumpit said...

"Everything is Nazi when you don't have a working brain."

Then what is your excuse for having a non-working brain? You could easily be cast as a Nazi villainess in the next Bond picture. Changing your batteries might help.

Jim at said...

It's clearly a selective, racist, anti-Muslim ban without logic or justification.

Islam isn't a race, you drooling imbecile.

Gahrie said...

Gahrie, while I like the idea of non lawyers on SCOTUS, I will mention that Earl Warren wasnt a lawyer.

He graduated from the Berkeley School of Law with a J.D. and served as the Attorney General of California and as a district attorney.

Sebastian said...

Of course, as the travel ban cases showed, any prog judge can invent anything, but:

"(a) whether the right to enter the US is covered by the due process guarantee," Umm, no.

"and (b) what "due process" amounts to." In the case of illegals, immediate expulsion (I wish).

"I don't know the law in this area, but I do recall that a lot of citizens' rights (like non-citizens' rights) are in practice more limited in the border zone." Correct.

The essential absurdity of the "constitutional" argument pertaining to illegals is that it posits that someone legitimately gains legal rights by committing an illegal act.

My spitting in your face obligates you to pay my hospital bills. My trespassing on your property obligates you to build me a house. And so on.

Trumpit said...

"Islam isn't a race, you drooling imbecile."

What is it then, troll? You know as much about the Muslim faith as the man on the moon. And that is where you should be sent, or to Guantanamo as an enemy alien. Extracting information out of you would be futile because you know nothing.

Chuck said...

Gahrie said...
Gahrie, while I like the idea of non lawyers on SCOTUS, I will mention that Earl Warren wasnt a lawyer.

He graduated from the Berkeley School of Law with a J.D. and served as the Attorney General of California and as a district attorney.

Yeah, I read that too and I was so mystified I really didn't want to touch it.

I think Justice Jackson -- one of the greatest legal minds of the century -- was the last person on the court who was not a law school grad. But he too was a licensed, practicing lawyer. (Before a law degree was required to become a member of the bar. As with Clarence Darrow, who did not finish his law degree at Michigan.) And Jackson's career became the Triple Crown of American law. Solicitor General; Attorney General, Supreme Court Justice.

Balfegor said...

Re: Sebastian:

The essential absurdity of the "constitutional" argument pertaining to illegals is that it posits that someone legitimately gains legal rights by committing an illegal act.

But that has to be true in some degree. For example, when US authorities take illegal immigrants into custody on US soil, then those immigrants -- notwithstanding their illegal misconduct -- are entitled to certain protections, e.g. that they not be summarily shot without trial. It's a question of how far that extends. I think summary removal ought to be a constitutionally permissible, but the real trick here is never taking illegal immigrants into custody on US soil in the first place. The more this border nonsense drags on, the more I come to realise the wisdom of a wall.

Trumpit said...

"And Jackson's career became the Triple Crown of American law. Solicitor General; Attorney General, Supreme Court Justice."

If what you say is true then he was a rare legal bird indeed. From my experience with lawyers, most are fools and thieves, and belong behind bars for their crimes against their clients and society.

AustinRoth said...

WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!!

And STILL not sick of it!

Trumpit said...

@AustinRoth - You're a deplorable and a foolish troll. Your asinine comment proves it.

Jupiter said...

Jim Harvey said...

"Trump walked into office and immediately set this policy from a position of bigotry,"

So what do you take this word "bigotry" to mean, Jim? If I don't want the house next door turned into a Hell's Angels clubhouse, does that make me a bigot?

Jupiter said...

Chuck said...

"Taken to its illogical conclusion, the notion that all non-citizens have no due process rights would mean that a non-citizen who was visiting the United States on a student visa or a work visa or an ordinary travel visa, would have no due process rights."

Now you're talkin' sense! Round 'em up and brand 'em if you like. Sell 'em on the open market like hogs on the hoof. You buys your ticket and you takes your chances, furriner! Chuckles, I just knew you'd see reason once you got that big, floppy thing outta yer mouth. Doesn't that feel better? Maybe you are a Republican.

narciso said...

this is why boumedienne is stupid, re one of the plaintiffs lamar:

http://historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=khalil_ziyad_1

wholelottasplainin said...

Chuck aren't you just beating a dead horse here?

You remind me more and more of those movie scenes where a mob thug beats on some guy until he's obviously dead---and then wales on him some more.

Can't you give your obsessive self-righteousness a rest?

readering said...

Rabel:

Earlier this week, Sotomayor issues a majority opinion in another immigration case, Pereira v Sessions, 8-1 with Alito dissenting. Her footnote 1 there reads,

"1The Court uses the term 'noncitizen' throughout this opinion to
refer to any person who is not a citizen or national of the United States.
See 8 U. S. C. §1101(a)(3) [containing definition of term 'alien' in statute]."

The dissent does not use the term noncitizen anywhere, but 8 colleagues went along with her.

readering said...

Make that 7 colleagues

Matt Sablan said...

"I think summary removal ought to be a constitutionally permissible, but the real trick here is never taking illegal immigrants into custody on US soil in the first place."

-- I think that is Trump's endgame once he gets told he can't detain the kids with the detained parents.

Matt Sablan said...

That is, I think he'll go with "catch-and-release," only with the "release" part being across the border instead of in America.

Michael K said...

Blogger Trumpit said...
"Islam isn't a race, you drooling imbecile."

What is it then, troll? You know as much about the Muslim faith as the man on the moon.


Whereas, trumpit IS the man on the moon. (It's actually man in the moon but whatever_

rcocean said...

5-4

Shocking, even to me.

The District court order was crazy. We can't have Judges deciding how to enforce National security and immigration law.

I thought even the four Democrats would see that. But I see Left-wing ideology is their number one concern - the constitution and the explicit law be damned.

Of course, Kennedy had to issue a separate opinion signally how morally virtuous he is, and stating that if Trump "Goes too far" he'll flip on the next case..

Michael K said...

Blogger Gahrie said...
Gahrie, while I like the idea of non lawyers on SCOTUS, I will mention that Earl Warren wasnt a lawyer.

He graduated from the Berkeley School of Law with a J.D. and served as the Attorney General of California and as a district attorney.


He was never a judge, which was the point of the comment in an earlier age.

rcocean said...

Conservatives - the real ones, not the "George Will Conservatives" - are claiming this is a big "Win".

No its not. We just avoided a massive loss. By one vote. Which wouldn't have been there if it was up to the "Nevertrumpers".

We're like settler's in an Old West fort, surrounded and outnumbered by hostile Indians. We've beaten off one attack, so we all didn't get scalped. But we're still surrounded.

rcocean said...

Warren, IRC, was AG for California. Then Governor.

Dewey for God knows what reason, picked him in '48. Warren wasn't much of a Republican, and had been an explicitly non-partisan Governor. During the Campaign, he did nothing and didn't seem to even care.

Had Dewey picked a Senator from Illinois as VP who was big on farm issues, he might have won Illinois and enough states in the Midwest to beat Truman.

Trumpit said...

"I thought even the four Democrats would see that. But I see Left-wing ideology is their number one concern - the constitution and the explicit law be damned." Do you not recognize how ignorant and partisan you sound? You are no more than a Trump troll doll. For shame!

Trumpit said...

@Michael K, I was hoping you went back to medical school to learn the basics. Save a life instead of taking one. You can work as a wet nurse in Central America. You can learn to freeze hemorrhoids, and remove warts, too.

rcocean said...

I guess the real world of 2018 was too boring, so the 2 dissenters decided to dredge up the Japanese Internment Camps. Judas Priest, you can’t make this shit up.

Korematsu, should never have gotten to the SCOTUS, and it was rightly decided. The idea, the in the middle of WW2, with millions in the Armed Forces and hundreds of thousands of deaths, 9 Unelected Judges should’ve been 2nd Guessing the Commander-in-Chief over the internment of Enemy Aliens is ridiculous.

It was a bad decision, but it was one that was the Presidents to make. IMO, FDR should have had the guts to Declare Martial law on the West Coast in April 1942, that would’ve satisfied the Army. Later, it could have lifted as the Invasion menace receded. But his AG said, martial law would run into “judicial problems”, so we got Japanese internment.

Jupiter said...

Matthew Sablan said...
"That is, I think he'll go with "catch-and-release," only with the "release" part being across the border instead of in America."

Build the fucking wall already.

Jupiter said...

If Congress won't fund the wall, defund the F-35 and order the DOD to build the fucking wall already.

Jupiter said...

They don't like the Wall 'cause it's not in their district.

Trumpit said...

"internment of Enemy Aliens" They were innocent Japanese-Americans. You are the enemy of decency, and honesty. Fortunately, your generation is almost history. Nature has the solution for your ilk. You should be out there fishing, not polluting this blog with your hatred for Japs, Gooks, and Mussies.

Sebastian said...

"For example, when US authorities take illegal immigrants into custody on US soil, then those immigrants -- notwithstanding their illegal misconduct -- are entitled to certain protections"

No. They are not, or should not be, "entitled" to anything. That was the point of my point that a blatantly illegal act should not convey legal benefits. Anything that happens to them is and ought to be at our discretion, based on our assessment of our interests and of the harm done to the laws of the United States by their illegal conduct.

"It's a question of how far that extends." It is and ought to be policy question, not a matter of "constitutional law."

"I think summary removal ought to be a constitutionally permissible" Well, since the Constitution was not written to protect foreign law breakers and gives ample authority in immigration matters to the executive, I'd say it's "permissible" and the burden of proof is on opponents to show otherwise.

"the real trick here is never taking illegal immigrants into custody on US soil in the first place. The more this border nonsense drags on, the more I come to realise the wisdom of a wall" Agreed. But very firm enforcement and deterrence are still necessary.

Trumpit said...

You're drunk, Sebastian, and don't know your history. Mexico was invaded in 1846 and 54% of it's territory was stolen in the war and the Mexican Cession that followed. I vote to give them back their stolen lands, and pay additional reparations to the Mexican people. You want another beer.

Michael K said...

trumpit is off his meds, again.

Officer, there is a crazy man at that keyboard !

Michael K said...

"IMO, FDR should have had the guts to Declare Martial law on the West Coast in April 1942,"

Probably would have been better but the Niihau Incident, raised the issue of Japanese civilians' loyalties.

Many Japanese officers were educated in this country and English speaking Japanese were enough of a problem that Navajo code talkers were used on Guadalcanal.

Certainly there was racism involved. But Germans and Italians were also interned.

The British were so suspicious of Germans that thousands of German Jews were exiled to Canada for the war,

Michael K said...

I say that foreigners are welcome to come to the United States, and you should open your heart, hearth, and home to them.

Hilarious. Are you guys sure this is a parody ? He sure sounds nuts to me.

YoungHegelian said...

@Michael K,

The British were so suspicious of Germans that thousands of German Jews were exiled to Canada for the war

Were they forced to eat back bacon, eh? I mean, that's cruel & unusual even if you're a gentile.

Jon Ericson said...

TeeVee is a terrible drug.

Guildofcannonballs said...

"I think the point I'm trying to make still stands. Easily."

I made the same point the better part of a decade o. Althouse, probably under the name easyliving1.

Maybe 'prolapse tatoos' are the closest I have come to an orivinal thought?

Francisco D said...

"But I submit that Trump's campaign statement was the reason that the whole series of orders was pursued. Essentially Trump saying, "Get me something like that. Whatever.""

I submit that you are an arrogant asshole who thinks he knows and understands more than anyone else. The term for that is Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

That is an interesting mix with your Sgt. Schultz (I saw no fraud in Detroit elections) personality.

Guildofcannonballs said...

I emailed Althouse twice that I remember. One was a Jeffey Toobin column from 2008 or maybe later saying Clarence is the influential King of that damned court

The other was my browser not allowing, briefly, comments therefore making me think I was blocked, which would have been the greatest honor of my life in the "only catch flak when over the target" kinda way.

Gospace said...

Trumpit said...
"Islam isn't a race, you drooling imbecile."

What is it then, troll?


Islam is a totalitarian political ideology masquerading as a religion. You can't be a follower of both islam and the U.S. Constitution. The two belief systems are incompatible.

Michael K said...

Were they forced to eat back bacon, eh? I mean, that's cruel & unusual even if you're a gentile.

NO, but Max Peretz, who founded Molecular Biology as a field was one of them.

My point was that people who are fearful may do things that, in hindsight, look cruel.

I just finished a reading a book about Argencourt, If you want cruel, the 1315 variety beats anything in modern life.

Birkel said...

Yeah, this thread went the way I thought it likely would.
Me +1
Chuck 0

readering said...

1415.

AustinRoth said...

@Trumpit - I thought my comment was quite erudite and succinct.

And tomorrow when Janus is announced, I expect yet more WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!! WINNING!!

Bruce Hayden said...

"3. It was manifestly untrue that there were not good faith arguments to support the policies as shown by dissenting lower court judges, and now a majority of the Supreme Court. Yates manufactured the conflict by ignoring review of the career staff of the Justice Department office of legal counsel, which found the president did, in fact, have the authority. Yates simply said that she was not convinced that the order was “wise or just” or “lawful.” She simply declared that she was acting on her duty to “always seek justice and stand for what is right.”

With all her moral preening,it turns ouT that DAG Yates was up to her eyeballs in the FISA abuses and the start of the Russia/Trump investigation, that transitioned into the Mueller independent prosecutor investigation. We didn't know any of that, of course, when she was fired by Trump for insubordination. I thought at the time that her refusal to obey lawful orders of the President to defend his travel ban was more political than moral. With what we have found out since, I think that her insubordination was highly and nakedly partisan.

Bruce Hayden said...

Probably covered elsewhere, but I noticed a discussion about Due Process, etc. as written, the 5th (and 14th) Andt seems to have no limits. But that just shows how isolated our 18th Century founders were. In an era where people half way around the world can be in our country over night, we cannot give full rights to our courts to the entire human species inhabiting this Earth, all 8 billion or so of us. So a sliding scale was developed, ranging from full rights for citizens and legal resident aliens away from our borders with full rights, down to aliens who aren't in the US or its territories, who have minimal rights. This BTW is why Gitmo contains terrorists caught by our military around the world fighting us - because, while close to this country spatially, it is neither part of the US proper, nor is it in a US territory, but it is completely within US jurisdiction, which our CIA facilities around the world are not. The result of Bush(43) litigation was that Gitmo imprisoned terrorists had some middling Due Process, etc rights,they weren't nearly as strong as if the detainees were brought back to the, a mere 90 or so miles away. And, here, CJ Roberts addressed the subject early in his opinion - the people being deprived of entry into the US didn't have a right to be heard in US Courts since, by the terms of the EO, they didn't have sufficient personal contacts with the US. They weren't here, and had no legal right to be here (I.e. They weren't here, we could allow them in, and they had no legal right to demand entry). Rather, it was the rights of people in this country with full Due Process rights, the named plaintiffs, who had full Due Process, etc, rights, and it was their rights that were being litigated.

Another thing to keep in mind is that tan other way of looking at Due Process is to ask what process is due. The basics are notice and the right to be heard. But that is flexible, depending on circumstances. In non-immigration criminal cases, citizens and legally resident aliens need a chance to be heard by a judge before they can be imprisoned awaiting trial (excluding a reasonable short period to get in front of a judge) awaiting trial. Moreover, the process due includes such things as full disclosed sure from the prosecution, speedy trial, jury trials, etc. But the Feds can often seize money or other property first, notify you later, and make you sue to get it back. Illegals, depending on how close to the border they are caught, have much less process due. Right by the border, they can be essentially just shipped back. Away from the border, theiy can demand a hearing to contest their deportation order, and not much more.

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