I invite you to offer your own explanations, but I'm reading "As Critics Assail Trump, His Supporters Dig In Deeper" (NYT)...
In interviews across the country over the last few days, dozens of Trump voters, as well as pollsters and strategists, described something like a bonding experience with the president that happens each time Republicans have to answer a now-familiar question: “How can you possibly still support this man?”...Then there's "Trump Loses His Superpower/The president’s tweets have been powerless against images of migrant children in the news media," by Jack Shafer (Politico) — which I feel like calling As Trump Supporters Resist the Assailing of Trump, His Antagonists Dig In Deeper:
Republican voters repeatedly described an instinctive, protective response to the president, and their support has grown in recent months.... Mr. Trump has also retained support across a range of demographics other than the working-class voters who are most identified with him....
[A]s another immigration crisis of his own making smoldered this past week, critics inside and outside Mr. Trump’s party predicted another devastating, irremediable low point in his presidency. Yet many Trump voters said that they no longer had the patience or interest to listen to what they see as another hysterical outburst by Democrats, Republican “Never Trumpers” and the media....
For many Republicans, the audio of children sobbing at a migrant detention center barely registered, because these voters don’t pay attention to the left-leaning and mainstream media that have covered the family separation crisis far more than their preferred channel, Fox News....
Others said they saw a ploy by the president’s enemies to obscure news that was more favorable to him, like the internal Justice Department investigation that recently uncovered evidence of F.B.I. officials speaking disparagingly of Mr. Trump....
The border story couldn’t have arrived at a worse time for Trump. After the inspector general’s report on FBI handling of the Clinton email investigation came out on June 14, Trump seized on it with his demagogic tentacles and started to score points with his misguided supporters about how the deep state had attempted to block his election....So... hit him in the thing that he doesn't have. Is that a Zen koan? I don't know. Jack Shafer just sounds... truculent. It's inspiring my instinctive, protective response. Shafer ought to see how battering Trump stimulates that feeling... but it would take some... emotional intelligence.
But... the border story nullified Trump’s howling about the IG report and the evil James Comey. Nobody wanted to hear about the IG anymore; they wanted to hear Trump justify the border policy. Trump was now facing a story that couldn’t be diluted or contaminated with Twitter truculence....
For three years now we’ve been told that nothing bad sticks to Trump, that his mind games and double-talk make him invulnerable to the protestations of the righteous. That no matter how tight his detractors tie the knot, he’ll always slip out of it. This week we learned differently. Trump can reliably win the battle if it’s fought with words. But against images and descriptions of distraught and traumatized children and parents, Trump’s superpowers fail. If you want to beat Trump, hit him in the heart because he doesn’t seem to have one. He’s a man with zero emotional intelligence.
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1 – 200 of 381 Newer› Newest»Trump is winning and will win again, because the left has gone off the deep end. The Restaurant owner that got called in from home to kick Sarah Sanders out of her restaurant is laughable. The hate from the left is so far gone that we are all laughing at them. I hope they keep it up!!
For many Republicans, the audio of children sobbing at a migrant detention center barely registered
I'm surprised it registered with anybody but frequent flyers.
Astrology skeptics are digging in, says astrology buff.
The border story couldn’t have arrived at a worse time for Trump.
Yes, its timing was just crazy, random happenstance.
Been there. Done that. Everyone knows... there needs to be emigration reform, and that immigration should not exceed the rate of assimilation and integration before Planned Parenthood, and should not be a basis for a cover-up of immigration reform in second and third-world nations with "shitshows".
I’ve seen reports that over 90% of all press reports on Trump are negative while the reporters still claim to be unbiased. I doubt I’m the only one who has stopped listening to them. The press has destroyed their credibility, which is the only thing they have to offer. It’s a shame, really, because an honest press is important.
Strategy: If we repeat how devestating the stories are to Trump they will damage Trump.
Unintended consequences: 1-The attacks trigger Trump supporters and fence sitters to defend Trump. 2- Lefties accept the stories as fact then become deranged when they don’t hurt Trump. Rinse. Repeat.
Shafer's emotional state seems to be rooted in a nostalgic mourning for prosecutorial discretion... the good progressive days.
The latest kerfuffle was well organized and timed, but what moron based it on photos from the Obama era? Really, a modern education really does suck.
The independents see the lies in the media about Trump. And everyone can see the improvements in the economy and the foreign policy successes, despite the best efforts of the media to downplay them
"But against images and descriptions of distraught and traumatized children and parents"
And even those they have to fabricate.
"If you want to beat Trump, hit him in the heart because he doesn’t seem to have one. He’s a man with zero emotional intelligence"
Hit him in the heart because he doesn't seem to have one: lefty logic. But it's one of Trump's advantages that the left still believes he has no "emotional intelligence" (and this from O devotees). I guess there were no lefties in Duluth.
Anyway, what has registered with us deplorables is not the manufactured crisis but the glee with which progs want to use "images" of the invasion to attack Trump. Finally, said Heilemann on NBC, "we" have found something to hurt him with. Noted.
The trend does not prove that the propaganda barrage is not working.
Given the circumstances one could, based on history, assume the President should see a great increase in approval. His policies are popular and the economy is improving in most places.
But the line is flat. This is likely to be, in large part, the effect of the campaign. If so, it is a great achievement, albeit an expensive one.
Not to worry. They all attacked that Washington guy too. He lost many a battle at first. But he too had the Scots Irish guys on his side.
Perhaps it's because the Press are known democratic operatives with bylines?
As Franklin Roosevelt said about Al Smith. "I love him for his enemies."
They really don't know how they are empowering Trump.
Look at the language in that second piece.
Trump seized on it with his demagogic tentacles and started to score points with his misguided supporters about how the deep state had attempted to block his election....
I would not violate Godwin's Law but that language does sound familiar.
People believe the media is a biased source. My college-aged daughter was just complaining about the immigration news yesterday - she said that you can never really understand an issue because there is no place to go to hear or read a good summary of the issue - the media only gives part of any story. She's a smart girl (straight A's / Engineering Field), and she's given up the news.
Buwaya, we may also be seeing another case of "Bradley Effect."
The more the left attacks, physically attacks, Trump supporters, the less reliable polls may be.
We saw it before the election.
A problem with the use of crying children as propaganda is that we respond to children crying, but we're genetically programmed to act in a real-world environment in which we are responsible for particular children who need our assistance. When the crying goes on and on, and we are not the ones in a position to do something for them right now, our natural instinct doesn't play out naturally. What do we do then? We may get annoyed at the parents who aren't doing something (the crying child on the plane problem) or, if the child is on TV, we may turn it off. It doesn't work to present crying children as an ongoing argument, because people will look for an escape from the urge to pick up and comfort the child.
While the pundits concentrate on 'Trump supporters' they also ignore the large decrease in "disapprove" numbers in the graph.
THAT would make for an interesting news story, no?
Something else we may do if the crying goes on and on is look at the bigger picture. Back up and see what is making this child cry. Where is there a place in this problem that a solution can be found? That opens up the discussion of what the incentive structure is and what might help keep people from getting into this predicament. Then the solution is at least complicated (but for many people the solution will seem to be what Trump says it is). But when you can't directly help the child, don't you have to look at the whole big problem and not just the closeup on the child who is crying?
Hack press and democrat party: The sheeple won't obey - send in Hillarywoodland.
> his demagogic tentacles
Tentacles are usually associated with anti-semitic propaganda. These guys can't get anything right.
”because these voters don’t pay attention to the left-leaning and mainstream media that have covered the family separation crisis far more than their preferred channel, Fox News....”
Yeah, whoever wrote that didn’t watch Fox News (probably didn’t want to get cooties). They covered it plenty.
The Left offers nothing practical in return for ditching Trump. Nothing. The leadership gap on the Dems side is unprecedented. It’s the price the Left pays for developing (and not publicly ditching) the Clinton Machine. Expect more of this until they do.
Why should vindicating Trump hurt Trump? The media prove time after time he is right about them, and it puzzles them why this does not hurt him.
The border story couldn’t have arrived at a worse time for Trump. After the inspector general’s report on FBI handling of the Clinton email investigation came out on June 14...
Of course an alternate formulation could have been “couldn’t have arrived at a better time for us” and it’s not that much of a leap to go to: “was strategically timed to....”
My own liberal brother has come to realize that the only solution available to somebody who is serious about the problem of separating families is a wall. And he voted for Hillary.
”because these voters don’t pay attention to the left-leaning and mainstream media that have covered the family separation crisis far more than their preferred channel, Fox News...
So the fatal flaw in the strategy is articulated but not identified by the perpetrators.
hat opens up the discussion of what the incentive structure is and what might help keep people from getting into this predicament..
Which is precisely why discussion is forbidden. This is a matter of holy obligation and in group membership is at stake. Reason has nothing to do with it.
The article leaves out a big reason:
On other conservative forums, I have found that Trump's supporters are just indifferent to the plight of nonwhites--even nonwhite American citizens. So news stories about migrant Latin American children being separated from their parents are of no interest to them and have no effect on them.
Quite a few Trump supporters whom I've talked with, believe that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was wrong and a private business should be allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason, including race.
When I ask what should have been done instead about the systematic denial of black citizens' rights in the Jim Crow era, you get a shrug.
I've always said that the true test of whether you believe in liberty and freedom is whether you will defend the liberty and freedom of people who are not like yourself. Many Trump supporters fail that test completely.
The media is a swarm of gnats to be patiently and persistently swatted away. The Dem leadership is weak. Their bench is weak - is Governor Martin O'Malley their Prez front runner?
The Senate is already protected. They GOP will gain 3 seats.
The current mission is:
1 Retain the House GOP majority
2. Blunt Mueller
After this battle, regardless of outcome, full steam ahead for 2020, while mocking and discrediting Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren, Joe Biden and Cory Booker. A little reverse Alinski, backed by Adelson's millions.
Let's get it on!
I want to hear more about the IG report.
I do not want to hear more about children at the border.
The MSM attacks all Republican Presidents as it is part of their job as the propaganda arm of the DNC.
Trump knows how to troll them and they fall for it. They go apeshit, full derangement mode. True believers love it.
Some moderate, skeptical and open minded people learn about "journalism." Those of us who were already highly skeptical just harden our views about the press. We stop listening and the MSM caters to a shrinking, more leftist audience.
From a business perspective, this does not seem to be a model for long term success. However, my model presumes that free speech will continue when the leftists take control some day. Hopefully, I will not have to change that assumption if "hate speech" becomes banned.
But... the border story nullified Trump’s howling about the IG report and the evil James Comey. "Nobody wanted to hear about the IG anymore...
Democrat Hack Press code: "We in the Democrat Hack Press didn't want to report on the inconvenient truths inside the IG report, so we found some kids in cages and exploited them."
Sinz52, good for a laugh. Good luck on making converts.
I am beginning to see more of these "Why aren't I 50 points ahead?!?" media pieces from the MSM. After throwing everything but the kitchen sink at Trump, they are beginning to feel fatigued and they are puffing like a locomotive yet Trump still stands. It wasn't supposed to be like this. It is interesting the left doesn't have any real solutions for illegal immigration than empty virtue signaling and audio of crying children.
David Brooks says Trump is a wolf.
Jack Shafer says Trump has tentacles.
We are supposed to admire such intelligent discussion of issues.
Where is the compassion for the famlies of the victims of violence by illegal immigrants? Illegals who are given special treatment from the justice system becuase of their status which empowers them to commit violent crimes? Anti Trump advocates are indifferent to the plight of the victims. News stories about the victims are of no interest to anti Trump advocates.
Why are Democrats so insane lately? It's simple, they're intellectual children, unable to deal with a reality that conflicts with their emotion-driven beliefs (not to mention their slavish devotion to the manipulative pap served up by the media).
Their claim: Trump will set women back a generation!
Reality: Trump appointed the first female CIA Director in U.S. History. Also the first black female General in The Marines.
Their claim: A Trump Presidency will destroy the black community!
Reality: Minority Unemployment is at an historic low (this one really pisses them off, nothing terrifies Democrats like a black man with a job).
Their claim: Trump is going to get us in a nuclear war with North Korea!
Reality: The Korean War is over, largely due to Trump's efforts.
Their claim: Trump's tax cuts will bankrupt the Government!
Reality: Tax revenue was it's highest in our Nation's history last quarter (this is due to basic economics, when you remove draconian taxation, you get more commerce, more commerce equals more taxable transactions, this is basic shit they should have learned in 9th grade).
So ignore them, fight with them, whatever, but never, ever take them seriously. They live in a world of fiction.
Mary Beth said...
"The border story couldn’t have arrived at a worse time for Trump."
Yes, its timing was just crazy, random happenstance.
When something which has been happening for years suddenly happens, it's the result of time travel: "When you're riding in a time machine way far into the future, don't stick your elbow out the window, or it'll turn into a fossil."
The best single answer is Hillary. The Clinton crime family are monsters everyone. I would happily vote for Pinochet to keep her out of office. In fact, a Pinochet-style coup d'etat would be welcome right now, with monsters sleeping with the fishes.
"Nobody wanted to hear about the IG anymore; they wanted to hear Trump justify the border policy."
Tried and true weasel words designed to hypnotize the gullible or woke into agreeing with the propagandist. Who is the "nobody," sir; you? And how in blazes do you speak for us?
The MSM has been attacking Trump over EVERYTHING 24/7 for three years. Yes, its been Three Fucking years!
They're lied about Trump and misrepresented what's he's said so often, I don't believe them or pay any attention to their hysterics.
Plus, anyone who looks into the "What about the immigration Children??!!!" knows its another fake scandal. The MSM knows idiots respond to kids, so all they have to do is wank on about "the kids" and everyone will blubber and do what they want.
Hmm I think anyone that really thinks it through can see that the children at the border is just an attack angle and Hype. Is the media really saying just open the borders to all families with children? That is the end result of their position.
Looks to me like a carefully planned attack on Trump to hide the IG report. PDT is still popular with his supporters because he fights back against the attacks and does not cower to the pressure like most republicans.
Sinz52, say hi to your imaginary friends.
"Kids" are getting killed in Syria and Afghanistan right now.
But nobody cares about those "kids" evidently.
And most of the "kids" at the border wouldn't be there if their illegal alien parents hadn't used them as "Get out of Jail Free" cards.
And some of those kids are being abused. That's why they're trying to sneak across the border illegally.
Mike Sylwester said...
David Brooks says Trump is a wolf.
Jack Shafer says Trump has tentacles.
The most dangerous President in the world is a wolf with tentacles riding on a elephant with a loaded taco bowl on its head.
"Quite a few Trump supporters whom I've talked with, believe that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was wrong"
Quite a few? If so, I'd think one or two of them might appear here at Althouse, which as we all know is a hotbed of Trumpian reaction. Can you point out one or two?
The media and leftist Dems are the crying children... throwing tantrum after tantrum. What any good parent does is make sure the child is safe and then walk away, don’t reward the behavior.
I've always said that the true test of whether you believe in liberty and freedom is whether you will defend the liberty and freedom of people who are not like yourself. Many Trump supporters fail that test completely.
Inga, is that you ?
If you want some sense instead of sinz, read Belmont Club today.
The migration crisis is an indictment of the global world order. It also underscores its biggest weakness: a grandly named system ironically incapable of either preventing the collapse of its constituents or managing the displacement of tens of millions. That powerlessness was manifested in Europe's inability to do anything but passively await the human tide launched by ISIS against its porous borders. "Of NATO’s EU allies, only Greece, Estonia and the U.K. hit the target of spending 2 percent of their gross domestic product on defense." Tellingly Spain, on Europe's front line, spent less than 1%. Germany's contribution to the fight against ISIS was eloquent in its paltriness. DW noted "many primary weapons systems in the Bundeswehr are not available."
It's a world wide crisis. and Mexico is about to elect a president who says, All Mexicans should move yo the US.
The LA Times has s puff piece on him that that does not mention this statement.
I made it a point to watch the nightly news last week. All networks. At the conclusion of the 30 minute broadcast it would be perfectly understandable to come away with feelings of hatred towards Trump.
Each story is told with an exacerbated tone of 'THIS IS AN EMERGENCY!', putting you on edge. They start with personalizing Trump, followed by the content to show how this very bad man is destroying all things that are good.
It's really quite remarkable.
Why are Democrats so insane lately? It's simple, they're intellectual children, unable to deal with a reality that conflicts with their emotion-driven beliefs
Read VD Hansen's piece on higher education.
It explains a lot.
And the result of it is that we’ve turned out students that are highly partisan and highly mobilized, and even sort of arrogant, but they’re also ignorant … that came at a cost. They did not learn to write well. If you ask them who’s General Sherman, or what’s a Corinthian column, or who was Dante, all of the building blocks that they could refer to later in life to enrich their experience, they have no reference. And then they don’t know how to think inductively. So if you point out the contradictions in free speech the way they shout down some speakers and not others, or the way that they hate capitalism, but they love Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook, they’re not able … they haven’t been trained philosophically to account for that, because they’re indoctrinated.
The only solution is self education but reading is not something these kids do.
Being serious here, has anyone on this thread heard of any real democratic solutions other than melodramatic hand wringing? I live in the bay area and tried listening to Kamala Harris at a press conference speak about going on but all I heard was "we can't separate families..blah...blah..blah" Never any recognition these "families" are breaking the law etc. I ask my anti trump friends what they would change about immigration and they look blankly at me. Help me out here.
"The border story couldn’t have arrived at a worse time for Trump. After the inspector general’s report on FBI handling of the Clinton email investigation came out on June 14, Trump seized on it with his demagogic tentacles and started to score points with his misguided supporters about how the deep state had attempted to block his election...."
Yeah, that's why it arrived. Not to worry, Trump is a winner, he wins and I'm still not tired of all the winning.
I don't know about y'all but Since has convinced me to be a Trump hater. I can't stand the idea some anonymous person on the internet thinks I might be racist because I support Trump.
Good work Sinz52! Score one more vote for the party of political violence and suppression of free speech.
I watched Fox News Sunday this morning. They had Jeh Johnson on, who basically implemented the same policy as Trump, but was blocked by the courts. He actually seemed pretty reasonable compared to the Democratic party rabble.
Some things I learned....
50,000 people cross the border illegally every month.
Most are not Mexicans.
By law, non-Mexican illegal aliens cannot immediately be turned around and sent home, because they don't hail from a non-contiguous border country.
I also read the Mexico's leading presidential contender is advocating sending all 'migrants' to the United States, because it's a 'human right' to setting in the US. He didn't mention Mexico.
I can only see this issue getting much worse as election month approaches, which I assume only helps Trump considering how unreasonable and stupid his opponents are.
Yeah but still doesn't explain audience liking Biff.
Since=Sinz52
What Schafer fails to realize is that the border issue has been resolved and is quite literally last week's news. The IG reports and Congressional hearings into Dem associated malfeasance are going to keep coming all summer. The only "child abuse" problem associated with illegal immigration is in VA and took place on Obama's watch. Schafer also fails to note that even at the height of the hysteria a majority of Americans still want better enforcement of the laws against illegal immigration.
GK1 makes a good point that the Dems have very little to campaign on whether it be illegal immigration, tax cuts, economic growth or, particularly, pride in America. Really, what's going to happen to the Dems when they have to out on the road with nothing to sell but negatives? Negatives do not sell well, as I am sure Scott Adams would tell us.
(but for most people the solution will seem to be what Trump says it is).
Fixed it for you, Althouse! You can thank me later.
But when you can't directly help the child, don't you have to look at the whole big problem and not just the closeup on the child who is crying?
Why yes you do, as a matter of fact. And in the language of the World Cup, the Time cover was a massive “own goal” when it turned out that not only was the crying girl not separated from her mother, but the woman had abandoned three other children and a husband with a good job to come North. And the woman was dumb enough to pay $6000 to a coyote who seems to have pretty much delivered her and the child right into the hands of the Border Patrol.
"In interviews across the country over the last few days, dozens of Trump voters, as well as pollsters and strategists, described something like a bonding experience with the president that happens each time Republicans have to answer a now-familiar question: “How can you possibly still support this man?”..."
"Bonding" my ass. Some of us just recognize crude, demented, shit-grade propaganda when we see it.
See, I already have opinions on immigration policy, formed over decades of reading and thinking about it, thank you very much, screeching media sluts.
"But, but, look at this idiotic shite-quality propaganda we're frantically churning out! How can you possibly still support this man?"
"But, but, all the imbecilic catladies with emotional problems on facebook are outraged about Trump and immigration! How can you possibly still support this man?"
"But, but, God's anointed talking heads and sooper-dooper erudite newz-paper pundits (some of them with degrees from the Columbia School of Journalism!!!), called you a Nazi for the 5,000th time this week. How can you possibly still NOT UNDERSTAND THAT YOU'RE A FUCKING NAZI DEMON DIE NAZI DEMON DIE DIE DIE DIE and how can you possibly still support this man?"
I guess I'm probably just too dense and uneducated to be susceptible to such subtle arts of persuasion. You might need to dumb it down and tart it up a bit more to reach people like me.
Glen Beck tried to get the MSM to cover the border kids in 2014 with no success. On the eve of the IG report expected to expose political bias - favoring Democrats - in the FBI, the mediaswine focus on the kids erroneously showing cages from the Obama era. After that fraud was exposed, they double down. Nobody is imagining this and it has nothing to do with Fox News (which I don’t watch).
The border kids are fake - as in yesterday’s - news. Only partisan dunces and trolls insist otherwise.
Trump supporters dig in because it is Trump, and us, versus the swamp and its pimps in the media. However defective our standard bearer, this is our the last stand for decency in a corrupted government.
Korea.
Whoa: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44557818
This is what the news should be covering; this should be shouted from the rooftops.
If Korea comes through, I would have expected Trump's ratings to jump way up. The only reason I can see that they haven't is the parade of former "experts" repeating their mantra that nothing good came of it.
Martha Coakley? Night of the long faces: They didn’t listen to us.
Jack Shafer : Damn it! Listen to us!
I've always said that the true test of whether you believe in liberty and freedom is whether you will defend the liberty and freedom of people who are not like yourself. Many Trump supporters fail that test completely.
What am I supposed to defend? The liberty of Mexican citizens to cross the border illegally into the US? I certainly defend the right of the Red Hen lady to “not bake the cake” for Sanders, just as it is understandable, as pointed out by the left many many times, for conservatives to feel unwelcome in her restaurant.
"...superpowers...powerless...demagogic tentacles...howling...mind games..."
This is the writing of pulp fiction.
"...couldn't have arrived at a worse time...,misguided supporters...we've been told that...he'll always slip out of it...he doesn't seem to have [a heart]..."
This is non-factual writing, opinion and assertion.
Worse, Jack Shafer is an apostrophe abuser. He does not care enough to spell all the words.
There is little factual knowledge to be gained from the article beyond that Jack Shafer writes pulp fiction badly. Small wonder if such writing fails to influence.
“This couldn’t have come at a better time for us, a distraction from Trump’s apparent successes with North Korea.”
Sinz clearly has wonderful conversations within his own head. For example, I don't know a single conservative who even thinks about the Civil Rights Act of 1964 except when it is necessary to remind people that Everett Dirksen and the Republican Party were the difference makers for that legislation.
"The battering Trump is taking in the press is not hurting him."
It's hurting the press and it's going to hurt the equally crooked Dems come November.
Trump supporters dig in because it is Trump, and us, versus the swamp and its pimps in the media. However defective our standard bearer, this is our the last stand for decency in a corrupted government.
God help us if the left ever gets power again.
@TPAR Yes. Couple of hundred bodies returned last week and a couple of hundred to be returned next week but let's photoshop a fake cover to keep us entertained.
VD Hansen is absolutely correct.
I've been saying the same for many years, throughout our long encounter with US education.
Your university output is getting ever more ignorant, and this is proceeding rapidly.
They don't know anything, they do not acquire a database of information, nor do they learn how to, nor do they desire to. This starts in K-12, way far down in K-12.
This lack is not new, but it has been getting worse without significant interruption.
E.D. Hirsch has been on about this for decades. The ignorant children of the 80's he was concerned about are now administrators of schools, hiring even more ignorant teachers, graduating ever more ignorant classes of children.
Democrats want illegals as voters. It's that simple.
I've always said that the true test of whether you believe in liberty and freedom is whether you will defend the liberty and freedom of people who are not like yourself. Many Trump supporters fail that test completely.
So do cesspool cities run by Democrats.
Here's a link to Mike R's article.
It is my opinion that the left if no longer interested in elections. They are no longer useful to gain power.
"Democrats want illegals as voters. It's that simple."
Yeah, for the Dems it's all about now whereas Republicans take a more long term view. Republicans have a better appreciation of tradition and history. History matters.
The ignorant children of the 80's he was concerned about are now administrators of schools, hiring even more ignorant teachers, graduating ever more ignorant classes of children.
Allan Bloom's book, "closing of the American Mind" came out in 1987, and I read it at the time.
I put my children in private schools and wish I could do the same for my grandchildren.
Blogger Khesanh 0802 said...
Here's a link to Mike R's article.
Interesting. I expect this to be a long process and am not sure a reunified Korea will want to give up nukes, jusy as a free Iran might not want to do so.
Hillary poisoned that well very thoroughly.
If illegals voted Republican, you'd be able to see the wall at the Mexican border from the moon. Without glasses.
The BBC had a piece about how North Korean propaganda has changed in the last couple of weeks. Somebody linked it here, yesterday. The Beeb seemed upset. The US is presented the same way the Norks present their friends, however few they have had. That is unprecedented, I believe.
The BBC and the Guardian will have to pick up the slack.
I've always said that the true test of whether you believe in liberty and freedom is whether you will defend the liberty and freedom of people who are not like yourself. Many Trump supporters fail that test completely.
It's not Trump supporters shooting lawmakers.
It's not Trump supporters rioting and protesting speech on campus.
It's not Trump supporters harassing people at restaurants and at their homes.
It's not Trump supporters getting people fired for their political beliefs.
It's not Trump supporters trying to force people to make them wedding cakes or take pictures at their wedding.
"Quite a few Trump supporters whom I've talked with, believe that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was wrong and a private business should be allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason, including race.
When I ask what should have been done instead about the systematic denial of black citizens' rights in the Jim Crow era, you get a shrug."
The systematic denial of black citizens' rights was by law, not individual preference, in the Jim Crow era. We'll never know how many businesses would have served all races absent the threat of legal proscription. That the act didn't just overturn Jim Crow, but instead placed a new equally coercive legal structure in its place, is what conservative critics object to. You seem to conflate acknowledging someone's right to do a thing with approval of that thing.
When I ask what should have been done instead about the systematic denial of black citizens' rights in the Jim Crow era, you get a shrug."
My answer would have been to vote the Democrats who imposed Jim Crow on Black people out of office.
sinz52: On other conservative forums, I have found that Trump's supporters are just indifferent to the plight of nonwhites--even nonwhite American citizens.
Haven't seen you around in a while, sinz. Apparently you were off somewhere losing a few IQ points, and your entire sense of your own dignity.
Get some new material, catlady. This stale malarkey isn't moving anymore, even if you're dumb enough to buy it yourself.
Quite a few Trump supporters whom I've talked with, believe that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was wrong and a private business should be allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason, including race.
Yeah, and? You just throw that out there like everybody just knows that is crazy and evil and racist. "I can't even!" is not any kind of argument.
No, what it means is that there are adults out there who recognize that government infringing on freedom of association can have lots of unintended consequences on "liberty and freedom" and, and maybe they care about "defend[ing] the liberty and freedom of people who are not like [themselves]."
If you actually took your own rhetoric seriously, instead of just holding up like a juju charm, you wouldn't have to have this explained to you. You fail your own test, as somebody above said.
When I ask what should have been done instead about the systematic denial of black citizens' rights in the Jim Crow era, you get a shrug.
No, you don't just get a shrug. If you weren't drowning in your own smugness and mental laziness, you'd easily discover people who recognize that there is always tension between civil goods in a free society. People of good will can weigh those goods differently and come to different conclusions about relative good and harm. The assumption that someone is a racist because they give greater weight to the value of freedom of association than you do is, at best, lazy-minded. At best.
And there would still be plenty of ways to fight against Jim Crow that didn't involve government infringing on the freedom of association rights of citizens. Making being an asshole a matter of legal concern isn't always going to turn out the way you want it to.
How many words are required?
Trump expanded the Overton Window, but only for himself. His opponents mistakenly think they can play by Trump's new rules, they go big and step on their cranks. He's taking candy from babies.
@Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...
"...superpowers...powerless...demagogic tentacles...howling...mind games..."
"This is the writing of pulp fiction."
Yep. Exactly. They're writing the story of Straw-Trump, the cackling, mustache-twirling evil villain of all evil villains. Then they congratulate each other on how brave and noble they are.
"I want to hear more about the IG report.
I do not want to hear more about children at the border."
Why the switch to the illegal crying babies? Because the IG report is helping blow up the Russia/Trump narrative. The Mueller investigation is starting to fall apart too - just in time for the election. Last place the MSM wants their shrinking reader/viewership to be looking right now is at the OIG report. And just wait until the next one, on the Russian/Trump "investigation". This one was bad for the FBI and Crooked Hillary. Next one is likely to be worse for them.
In short: Look! Squirrel!!!
Blogger Darrell said...
If illegals voted Republican, you'd be able to see the wall at the Mexican border from the moon. Without glasses.
Thanks for the good laugh.
I expect the leftist trolls' meeting will be ending shortly and it is time to cut the grass before it gets too hot.
I'm still chuckling.
Thanks, again.
It's not emotion, Deplorables have had enough. No more hostage to elite sensibilities. Me Too death sentences. Elites in Iran and central America saying "heaven" is that way, through the minefields and cages. Palestinian parents demanding their blood money. No deplorable allowed at lunch counter. Whites only. A reckoning is coming. The Elites won’t find a deplorable to defend them, esp. in the military. The Guillotine line is lengthening. I really don’t care do U? Here, Light this match.
crying babies, ushered in to be used as a political tool.
- the MSM can relate to that!
Something that disturbs me about the crying children and separation from the adults who are crossing with them illegally, is where does human trafficking fit into this? Human traffickers have to get their human merchandise across the border somehow, and I have to assume they can’t do it legally. Are we now leaving children with their traffickers? I know human trafficking is a huge problem because there is a lot of effort to educate healthcare professionals to recognize the signs. Heck, I had to watch an online video about it before I could pay to renew my license. For what it’s worth, only border I live near is Canada. Ironically,several years ago the Canadian border guards separated me briefly from my children because I didn’t have the right documents for them. I was admonished for being careless and warned that, “Canada cares about children.” Evidently, the US doesn’t.
I read the articles to tell me what the predominantly liberal Washington thinks. I see two arguments. First is look out, we were wrong in 2016, this might not work. The second is the doubling down. We are the center of the universe, we are right. The IG report is to hard to read, it will be forgotten in a week. Crying babies work every time. Trump will have to cave, we will force him to.
We had an election in Ontario this month. I don't live there, and listened to the media. The liberal talking points were the base reference for every discussion, question, argument. Every real problem that voters had were explained away; only global warming deniers would complain about high electricity costs and carbon taxes. Only bigots would complain about the school curriculum pushing homosexuality and transgendered. Only intolerant people would hate the stench of corruption.
The Liberals were destroyed, down to 7 seats, the conservative won a solid majority and mandate.
The IG report will not go away. A solid number of people will not only vote based on it but act based on it. The FBI will figure out that the Democrats will drop them like week old pizza the moment it starts hurting them.
And Trump will get his wall.
Hasn't the second journalist figure out there is an internet where people can read and see the stuff he is trying to spin?
You see the same thing playing out in the comments on this blog all the time. There are so many unreasoned attacks on the President that even the ones that do have some validity are rejected as more idiocy. There is also the given an inch they will take a mile factor. In short, the emotional positions the opposition has taken makes rational debate impossible, so why even try.
There is also the problem of an attack on Trump often being connected to being an attack on his supporters. Anyone who supports him is a cultist or moron. These kind of attacks generally lead to a well deserved f you, and just increases Trump's support, deserved or not.
Is Trump big and brash and off putting in his mannerisms? You betcha. Brash people usually are off putting. Most of us have learned to process people like that, and how to hear what they are saying when we are dealing with them. It almost takes a willful effort not to have that skill if you have been around awhile. People who can't or won't recognize the underlying Trump rather than the Big Persona Trump don't seem to be people willing to deal with what is rather than what they wish was.
I support the man due to his policy, not his personality, although I doubt he would be able to achieve what he has if he had a more moderate temperament. I think his detractors fail to recognize that.
The media must know what is happening, but I think they have dug their hole so deep they will never be able to climb out. People, in main, are not stupid. They know what is going on, and given option #1, reflexive Trump support, vs option #2, reflexive Trump hatred, they are going to pick #1, misgivings or not. The haters are not going allow any other choices. Their loss.
When it becomes an emotion vs reason debate the course of our nation is too important to be run by emotions. Most people know this and will form their opinions accordingly.
@DK,
Hasn't the second journalist figure out there is an internet where people can read and see the stuff he is trying to spin?
No. Next question.
Seriously, I find among my many liberal/lefty friends that they have only the faintest glimmer of the now yuuuuuuge right-wing alternative media out there. They know & loath Fox News & Rush Limbaugh. They have no idea that there are many other hosts on conservative radio. They especially have no idea about the wide network of the conservative internet, & how it's now evolved to counter their narratives.
Not too many years back, the liberals were really had a much better presence in cyberspace. That hasn't been true for a while.
There is this idea called "preaching to the choir". That is all the media did with the latest concern-fest. At the end of the day, Trump still has the politically popular stance of opposing illegal immigration- the Democrats are stuck with trying to defend the idea of open-borders. This is why the latest ploy has had no effect on Trump's standing- no one is persuadable on the two political sides on this issue. Even worse for the Left is that they continue to degrade their own credibility via the main-stream-media.
Not too many years back, the liberals were really had a much better presence in cyberspace. That hasn't been true for a while.
They don't need cyberspace to the news. They get their left wing propaganda the old fashioned way. The mainstream media.
Blogs like this are Samizdat. The MSM is Pravda.
"Progressives were so besotted with their own educated-class expertise that they concentrated power upward and away from the people at the same time that technology was pushing power downward and toward the people. Elites of all stripes were so detached they didn’t see how untrammeled meritocracy divides societies between the “fittest” and the rest.
"Those who lost faith in this order began to elect wolves in order to destroy it. The wolves — whether Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Viktor Orban, Rodrigo Duterte, Recep Tayyip Erdogan or any of the others — don’t so much have shared ideology as a shared mentality.
"It begins with 1, some monumental sense of historic betrayal. This leads to 2, a general outlook that says the world is a nasty place, and 3, a scarcity mind-set that says politics is a zero-sum game in which groups must viciously scramble to survive. This causes 4, a pervasive sense of distrust and suspicion, and 5, the rupture of any relationship built on friendship or affection, and finally 6, the loss of any sense that there is such a thing as the common good.
"Wolves perceive the world as a war of all against all and seek to create the world in which wolves thrive, which is a world without agreed-upon rules, without restraining institutions, norms and etiquette.
"What you see then is not merely a disagreement about trade or this or that, but two radically different modes of politics, which you might call high-trust politics versus low-trust politics."
David Brooks, "Donald Trump Is Not Playing by Your Rules"
"We are supposed to admire such intelligent discussion of issues"? I think you would be wise to heed it.
Sounds like the left doesn't like Trump?
Trump supporters dig in because the Fake Media over-outraged at Trump for pictures taken in the Obama era that the Media have covered up.
The left lost the previous election largely on immigration. I'd like to thank them for being stupid enough to again make it an issue in 2018.
Progressives have forgotten the art of persuasion. They were never very good at it, but now they don't even bother. All rage, all the time. And at least half of my acquaintances who voted for Not Trump (whether Clinton or Bernie) have in fact been persuaded to vote for him in 2020.
The unfair and inaccurate attacks, especially the outrage to 11, directed at Trump have turned this voter from ambivalent about him as POTUS to a supporter. Simple as that.
-sw
Quite a few Trump supporters whom I’ve talked with, believe that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was wrong and a private business should be allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason, including race [ and political affiliation].
Doesn’t political party sort of go to the “creed” part of the whole Civil Rights act of 1964? Maybe we are not the ones who think it was a mistake?
sakredkow quoted Dacid sharp-crease Brooks: the loss of any sense that there is such a thing as the common good.
"Wolves perceive the world as a war of all against all and seek to create the world in which wolves thrive, which is a world without agreed-upon rules,
Question: "common good" such as the "common good" that the Clintons have done with the hundreds of millions that they collected for their Foundation "charity"?
Question: "agreed-upon rules": who agreed on the rules? The rules to whip up Antifa riots with fascist tactics to shut down the Freedom of Speech? The rule to manufacture outrage with Fake News? The rule to manufacture news to attack an opponent and expect the opponent to keep quiet to maintain a "presidential" façade? The façade that was agreed on by the Media that attacked him?
Rules are for the stupid.
Glenn Reynolds observed that “the press has three main kinds of power. One is to motivate the left. Another is to swing the middle. And the third is to demoralize the right. It’s pretty much lost the last of these, and I suspect the second one is fading too.” - Richard Fernandez
Rules are for the stupid.
Got it. You're just the person Brooks was referring to. Nothing to discuss here.
“Trump supporters dig in because the Fake Media over-outraged at Trump for pictures taken in the Obama era that the Media have covered up.”
Keep that in mind - about the time that a lot of Trump supporters find out about the illegal kids being separated from their illegal parent, they discover that the MSM, that is pushing the heck out of this story, covered it up while Obama was President, and that pretty much all of the photos the MSM are showing come from that era, including that one on the Time cover. At least the issue is now before the public. One way to shut up leftists is to ask them how many facilities housing these kids did Michelle ever visit, in her husband’s eight years in office? The answer, of course, is zero, which means that Melania already has her beat on the compassion front here.
Buwaya is right at 8:56. The negativity is holding down his approval levels and thus hurting him (and the country) despite the headline.
Got it. You're just the person Brooks was referring to. Nothing to discuss here.
I see the meeting for the leftist trolls just let out.
Seems to have been extra long today.
I wonder what next week's hysteria will be, now that this one seems to be losing steam?
As least David Brooks is honest to admit a solid majority of "fly over" states consider elites like himself as arrogant assholes and that Trump's election was meant as a direct rebuke. But I don't think they have correctly processed why their ideas are being rejected too. Instead we get the same lectures from our so-called "intellectual betters".
The negativity is holding down his approval levels and thus hurting him (and the country) despite the headline.
Could be or it could be swaying the polls like it did in 2016. Remember 96% chance of Hillary winning ?
Still Don't get cocky, kid.
"Nothing to discuss here."
You were asked a question. Why is there nothing to discuss?
...they discover that the MSM, that is pushing the heck out of this story, covered it up while Obama was Presiden
You were asked a question. Why is there nothing to discuss?
I'm not talking with or to the "They-did-it-to-us-we-can-do-anything-to them" crowd. There's nothing to discuss. No shared values. Tough.
Not interested in arguing with the tedious whataboutist, you're another, but-but-but-but-what-about purveryors of Trumpism.
"Could be or it could be swaying the polls like it did in 2016."
There is definitely some blowback in reaction to the constant, hyperbolic attacks, but a very large portion of the electorate is only loosely attached to current events and sees little more than the headlines. If I were one of those I can see how I would have a negative opinion of Trump. Propaganda works, up to a point.
Continuing in the same vein - so, the MSM is upset that Trump supporters aren’t listening to them trying to distract them with this illegal immigrant story. They seem to think that the problem is that the right here, doesn’t have empathy. No - they have plenty of empathy (for example, by giving more to charity than the left does). But what they also have are brains. And that is really the difference between the right and left here, as it was when Winston Churchill pointed it out - the left makes decisions emotionally, and the right makes them logically. This was a classic case of fake news (the photos being used to incite everyone were taken when Obama was President), thrown out there, by the MSM, expecting that it will have the same affect on the right, as it does on the left, who react emotionally, not logically. But, if these deplorables reacted emotionally, instead of logically, they would have voted for Crooked Hillary, and hate Trump with the intensity that the MSM and all their friends do.
@sakredkow,
"It begins with 1, some monumental sense of historic betrayal.
Like, you know, the slave trade, or the conquest of the West by the Gringos.
This leads to 2, a general outlook that says the world is a nasty place,
Like, a world that's run on white supremacy?
3, a scarcity mind-set that says politics is a zero-sum game in which groups must viciously scramble to survive.
Like, "groups" as in Identity Politics, that need a Theory of Intersectionality to adjudicate conflicts of whose claim to victimhood comes first?
This causes 4, a pervasive sense of distrust and suspicion and 5, the rupture of any relationship built on friendship or affection, and finally 6, the loss of any sense that there is such a thing as the common good.
See Intersectionality above.
It's shit like this that's the reason conservatives don't pay any attention to Brooks. Unless, of course, we grant him a major indulgence & consider that this article was an attempt at some sort of Straussian "Persecution & the Art of Writing", where the writing's hidden meaning says something very different that what it says at first glance. Which is a possibility.
Honduran women (and women from many other countries) come to the border with their children fleeing abusive husbands. Last time I looked I did not see a sign saying "Domestic Relations Clinic" hanging on the south side of the border wall.
I also don't see hordes of European women (with the same sort of abusive husband issues) coming to the USA.
3, a scarcity mind-set that says politics is a zero-sum game in which groups must viciously scramble to survive.
Humans did have to scramble to survive. Not so much now.
Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.
The leftists went after Bondi in Florida. They are starting to leave their little blue conclaves.
The deranged animals injured a border patrol agent.
They are getting more and more crazy as they realize they are going to be facing more republicans in the house with fewer traitors like Paul Ryan as a buffer and 60 republicans in the senate.
They are going to kill someone soon.
Expect the last couple weeks to seem sane, a backlash, and quiescence.
The Last month before the elections the democrats will be blasting “can’t we all just get along?”
Possibly even sooner.
Seriously.
Just watch.
“On other conservative forums, I have found that Trump's supporters are just indifferent to the plight of nonwhites--even nonwhite American citizens. So news stories about migrant Latin American children being separated from their parents are of no interest to them and have no effect on them.
Quite a few Trump supporters whom I've talked with, believe that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was wrong and a private business should be allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason, including race.
When I ask what should have been done instead about the systematic denial of black citizens' rights in the Jim Crow era, you get a shrug.
I've always said that the true test of whether you believe in liberty and freedom is whether you will defend the liberty and freedom of people who are not like yourself. Many Trump supporters fail that test completely.”
———————————-
Hear hear! I’ve seen the very same thing right here on these comments pages. And when challenged, they double down, make excuses for the bigotry and even try very hard to normalize that bigotry. These threads have started sounded more like a meeting of some White Nationalist/ White Supremacy group somewhere moreso than they did 3 years ago.
"Trump can reliably win the battle if it’s fought with words. But against images and descriptions of distraught and traumatized children and parents, Trump’s superpowers fail."
Almost sounds like Trump is Socrates, and his enemies are on the side of Lina Wertmuller. Oops. Too close to a Nazi reference. I promise not to compare anyone's house to one of the buildings at Auschwitz.
Young H: Seriously, I find among my many liberal/lefty friends that they have only the faintest glimmer of the now yuuuuuuge right-wing alternative media out there. They know & loath Fox News & Rush Limbaugh. They have no idea that there are many other hosts on conservative radio. They especially have no idea about the wide network of the conservative internet, & how it's now evolved to counter their narratives.
Yes, and this astonishes me. 15-20 years ago they were all convinced that anyone who leaned right of course got all their information from Rush and FAUXNEWS!!!. 15-20 years later they still think that. It wasn't true then, and it sure as hell ain't true now.
Not too many years back, the liberals were really had a much better presence in cyberspace. That hasn't been true for a while.
Do they have less of a presence, or is there just more, and more kinds of, righty sites now? Do different groups just (metaphorically) migrate out of the cyber-city into the cyber-suburbs, or into private gated communities, or into small towns, and after a while back into the city or further out to the exurbs? Constant ideological demographic churn.
“Keep that in mind - about the time that a lot of Trump supporters find out about the illegal kids being separated from their illegal parent, they discover that the MSM, that is pushing the heck out of this story, covered it up while Obama was President, and that pretty much all of the photos the MSM are showing come from that era”
This is the heart of it. Conservatives have finally reached a place where the old bullshit double-standard is reflexively rejected. It took a long time but (thanks largely to the Clintons and their absurd apologists) we’re there. There won’t be any turning back.
YoungHegelian: Be my guest, make your argument against Brooks. I was addressing the notion of another here who totally dismissed Brooks argument because he couldn't hear anything other than the metaphorical use of "wolves" to characterize a tribal centered mentality.
It begins with 1, some monumental sense of historic betrayal.
Yup That over 100-year old Constitition thingy is passé.
This leads to 2, a general outlook that says the world is a nasty place,
Yup it is and always was.
and 3, a scarcity mind-set that says politics is a zero-sum game in which groups must viciously scramble to survive.
Scarcity of what? Not food, hunger is a distribution problem, not lack of food. The UN is bitching the world is becoming fat.
Less disease, polio is almost eradicated, things like that.
This causes 4, a pervasive sense of distrust and suspicion, human nature and after all the rhetoric, wise.
and 5, the rupture of any relationship built on friendship or affection,
You voted for who?
and finally 6, the loss of any sense that there is such a thing as the common good.
See 1, Define common good.
Which leads to understanding 2 and the rest.
Inga cares so much, she’s still at home.
Almost sounds like Trump is Socrates
Right, because Socrates, like Trump, was known for his "You gonna believe me or your own lyin' eyes" arguments.
Another aspect that I haven't seen mentioned: the simple experience of being a parent. My kids would sometimes cry when I put them down to pay for my groceries, or open my front door. A screaming child is sometimes the default. You learn to live with it and help them through it. Kids learn as they mature not to freak out all the time.
You want to hear kids scream? Go to a doctor's office or an emergency room, or even a day care or kindergarten class. Should we abolish them because kids are crying?
In other words, the photo or audio of children crying does not affect me unless I know the context. In most cases, the context is that the children are simply being children, and adults are taking care of their responsibilities. A child crying, even screaming, is not the end of the world to a mature and experienced adult. So grow up, Democrats.
I'd like to ask every liberal and/or Democrat if they care about the following children: 1) children born when an abortion failed; 2) children killed at partial birth; 3) children who have their genitals cut off without anesthesia because of religion; 4) children who are killed by drone attacks; 5) children who are raped by human smugglers; 6) children who die in the desert on either side of the southern border; 7) children who are raped and/or killed by illegal immigrants; 8) children who are sold into sexual slavery; 9) children who are abused by pedophiles, including in Hollywood; 10) children who are used as drug mules.
My impression is that Republicans care far more about these children than Democrats do.
@sakredcow,
Be my guest, make your argument against Brooks.
Uhhhhhm, that's what my post above was.
Let me make it clear: Brooks is claiming that the Trumpian Right suffers from moral failures that he lists. I showed in my posting that those "moral failures" are part & parcel of the modern Identity politics narratives so beloved by the NYT's readership.
The more I look at that article I'm really starting to think it is a Straussian game. Even Brooks isn't that thick.
So, the people who anointed themselves to define the common good are distrustful and see the wold as a dangerous place because others don’t agree with their definition of the common good, because the peasants, the great unwashed said ummm, no, your common good isn’t my common good, even tho you perceive your common good is for my common good. Which breaks down to?
You voted against your self interest.
Inga
The story spun by sinz52 is fiction. No conservative in 2018 would say this about the Civil Rights Act. He didn't hear it and neither have you. It is bad fiction based on a stupid cliche.
So the left has a two pronged argument for 2018:
(1) We did a DNA test and Trump is literally Hitler. There are 11 million dead immigrants buried in mass graves in Texas. Trump is claiming the English speaking parts of Canada. Amtrak is running on time.
(2) Vote Democrat because we'll fix things after the election with new ideas we don't have yet, sort like "hope and change".
The new bumper stickers: "Hope And Change Trump Hitler"
On August 28th Mueller is going to be forced to climb down and faces abject humiliation.
August 28th will be peak rage.
By October the democrats/media will be crying and trying to be friends.
@Andrew
Nice list.
You might also add:
11) children who live in our inner cities
12) children who live in the Appalachian mountain region
13) children who live on Native American reservations
“On other conservative forums, I have found that Trump's supporters are just indifferent to the plight of nonwhites--even nonwhite American citizens. So news stories about migrant Latin American children being separated from their parents are of no interest to them and have no effect on them.”
Notice both the emotional argument and the attempt at shaming through that emotional appeal.
And, no, most conservatives don’t believe that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was a mistake. That was Barry Goldwater who voted against it because of states rights. All of the other votes against passage in the Senate were Democrats who supported Jim Crow laws. And that is why most Republicans supported it then, and support it now - because that was the only way to end Jim Crow, imposed by Democrats, after they lost the Civil War. Maybe you are proud of belonging to the party of slavery and Jim Crow - I sure wouldn’t be. Finding a half dozen people who take Goldwater’s side on this issue doesn’t prove that Republicans are racists, but rather that you are incapable of logical argument, because you are generalizing from the specific to the general with little except thin air for support.
So it's a "my way or the highway" kind of discussion, is it, 'kow? You agree with all my premises or I don't want to talk to you?
And we don’t want to go without AC because global warming...which isn’t.
SCARCITY!!!
Why don’t you care? Why aren’t you as pious as ME?
Because it’s all about me.
Since I’m a tail-end boomer, a member of the OG ME generation. Sod off Swampy!
sakredkow: Not interested in arguing with the tedious whataboutist
Lol. What was I saying yesterday about the few sad lefties still out there flogging last season's tired magic juju word, "whataboutism"?
Yes, sakredkow, you only have to wave your juju in their faces, and they let you criticize all the awful, awful stuff their guys are doing, and demand that they grovel and apologize and disavow, and they can't say a word about your guys doing exactly the same thing, or point out your hypocrisy and bad faith! Shazzam!
Not working, is it? You know what might actually work? Ditch the hypocrisy and bad faith, and maybe they'll shut up about it! You can tackle weaning yourself from the demented propaganda and 24/7 outrage smack you've got yourselves hooked on next, but baby steps, baby steps.
Oh, one more thing - David Brooks? Droll, very droll.
Inga said...
Hear hear! I’ve seen the very same thing right here on these comments pages. And when challenged, they double down, make excuses for the bigotry and even try very hard to normalize that bigotry. These threads have started sounded more like a meeting of some White Nationalist/ White Supremacy group somewhere moreso than they did 3 years ago.
The soulless amoral Inga bleats about the things she has seen!
What she wants to believe just does not exist in reality.
So she lies and makes it up.
Just like Time Magazine everything Inga believes is Fake but Accurate.
It is going to be a lot of fun watching you cry in November when Republicans have 60 senators.
“I'd like to ask every liberal and/or Democrat if they care about the following children: 1) children born when an abortion failed; 2) children killed at partial birth; 3) children who have their genitals cut off without anesthesia because of religion; 4) children who are killed by drone attacks; 5) children who are raped by human smugglers; 6) children who die in the desert on either side of the southern border; 7) children who are raped and/or killed by illegal immigrants; 8) children who are sold into sexual slavery; 9) children who are abused by pedophiles, including in Hollywood; 10) children who are used as drug mules.”
—————————————————-
Of course we do. So...next question? Does caring about these children you mentioned above mean we should suspend caring about the children at the border who are separated from their parents? How so? Why? Is there some level of horribleness that must be reached before we are supposed to care?
I think there is a serious empathy problem on the right. I’ve seen it for years and it’s more in your face since the advent of Trump.
I think there is an serious empathy problem on the right.
Why aren’t you showing how much you care? Why aren’t you at a center volunteering your services?
(Eaglebeak)
I think the stalking and raving, throwing Trump people out of restaurants and calling for little boys to be caged and raped because they're related to Trump, is not a good look for the left.
But what do I know?
Only this: The day Trump started getting attacked hard in the summer of 2015 is the day his supporters became his supporters.
And imagine--no one has the patience for Laura Bush now, when she was once held in such affection. That's quite a trick to accomplish with one tweet, Bushie.
Live up to your standards. Inga.
sakredkow said...
YoungHegelian: Be my guest, make your argument against Brooks. I was addressing the notion of another here who totally dismissed Brooks argument because he couldn't hear anything other than the metaphorical use of "wolves" to characterize a tribal centered mentality.
I love it when leftists quote Brooks or use him to support some argument they make.
Brooks is a tool just like they are and the only people who listen to Brooks are leftists.
His job is to make them feel better.
Be my guest, make your argument against Brooks.
How about this, you highlight what you think is Brooks most important point and defend it? No, that will never happen, what am I thinking. You guys have almost zero ability to put arguments into your own words.
As far as I can tell, what Brooks is upset about is that Trump won’t play by the rules of the ruling elite. The rules Trump plays by are very clear to me. It’s not Calvinball. He is consistent with what he ran on.
Spaceforce, spaceforce, spaceforce!
That’ll get their juju flowing.
The people who make up the rules as they go along are the ones who force pizza parlor owners out of business through fines for doing the same think as they support when it is done against one of their enemies. Brooks is blind to that. Can’t even hear the argument to argue against it.
@Inga
Serious question. If you can say you and by extension "the Left" care about those children, why can't those on "the right" say they care and be believed?
Because actions speak louder than words? What have you and "the Left" done to lift those poor, suffering, abused, terrified, pick and adjective children out of their awful existence? Why don't you care enough about their plight to do something?
Other than saying how much you care?
"The Last month before the elections the democrats will be blasting “can’t we all just get along?”
Possibly even sooner.
Seriously.
Just watch."
Noted. That would mean they think their chances really suck. It wouldnt be anything new. I figure it will be in the waining days before the midterms, rather than a full month. I'd peg it at 8-6 days before the election. Consider it a non-binding bet. To be revisited.
On the media: I had coffee with someone I worked with years ago, a retired civil servant like me. Doesn't like Trump, wishes he didn't win, etc. We got onto trade issues because we Canadians are worried that Trump will hurt Canadians even if he hurts Americans in the process, he's (supposedly) a self-indulgent bull in a china shop, he doesn't understand anything about economics, etc. My friend and I agreed that media coverage is a disgrace. Trump supposedly wants sunset clauses in NAFTA, Canadians don't want such clauses because reputable business people say they need longer planning windows. My friend says no one in the media mentions the possibility of "grandfather" clauses for companies that have made substantial investments--and such clauses are common. Progressives who used to attack NAFTA now defend it, apparently because Trump hates it, and say it is a free trade agreement, which it isn't. It basically describes a number of exemptions from free trade. I brought up that when Trump started to threaten new tariffs, the reaction in the media was: this is evil, we all believe in free trade now. My friend agreed: that is nonsense. Can it be that Trump successfully reduces his opponents to babies who whine about their feelings, demand help, and then say everything Trump says is evil?
Right, because Socrates, like Trump, was known for his "You gonna believe me or your own lyin' eyes" arguments.
I think we have another fool. What do you know about Socrates?
I think there is an serious empathy problem on the right. I’ve seen it for years and it’s more in your face since the advent of Trump.
The other fool knows nothing but "empathy," but has no idea on how things work.
The left is like the Arabs in "Lawrence of Arabia." They had no idea how to run the city they had captured.
Earth to the fools, civilization is not the default state of society. Default is what we see in Syria and you have no idea how to make it work.
Another benefit of decentralizing the federal government is that some Dept Ag employee might look out a window and see a cornfield. Then wonder what the relationship is between that field and Whole Foods.
Inga said...
Of course we do. So...next question? Does caring about these children you mentioned above mean we should suspend caring about the children at the border who are separated from their parents? How so? Why? Is there some level of horribleness that must be reached before we are supposed to care?
The obvious point was you only care when you think the kids are useful leverage to gain power.
I think there is a serious empathy problem on the right. I’ve seen it for years and it’s more in your face since the advent of Trump.
It is a serious problem for amoral, lying leftists.
We don't care what you say anymore because you have proven you are a disgusting piece of shit in a disgusting violent movement bent on seizing power by any means necessary.
We don't care what you say because we know you don't really care about those kids unless they are useful to you.
You still support the Time magazine fake but accurate article.
No decent person could do that.
Brooks is largely wrong about, say, Duterte. He is wrong on his various points in various cases, but I can critique this one quite well.
1. Is right. There is an ancient class split, going back to, probably, the pre-colonial era, which was essentially a feudal society - see "Barangay", William H Scott. This persisted and in many ways was exacerbated by the centralization of power according to the Franco-Spanish Bourbon system. Manila uber alles, as with Paris and Madrid. There is a large gap between those who control the state apparatus and the mass of the people, and for that matter between the provinces and the capital. There is most definitely an "us" and "them".
2. Is largely wrong. This is not the Filipino attitude at all. This is a communal society that gives, and expects, mutual aid. This in spite of widespread, ancient poverty. There is also, in spite of the class issues, a very powerful sense of noblesse oblige. There is a modernist urban anomie beginning, but Duterte's voters are way behind that curve.
3. Is partially true, but the zero sum part is a matter between elite factions. There is a huge advantage in control of such parts of the state apparatus as may be available, and that is zero sum. This has always been the case, murder was always common in local politics.
But this is a matter of the elephants, not the mice. The Filipino masses do not have a zero-sum outlook at all. In fact one of the more disruptive elements is that a great number have become relatively wealthy by working abroad. Its a land of Horatio Algers now. In many parts you see huge mansions out in the ricefields.
4, 5, and 6 - This is and has always been a gemeinschaft culture. Brooks' analysis is obtuse. The state has always been an external, alien force, seen as, largely, more of a force of nature than an instrument of the people, in spite of over a century of propaganda to the contrary.
Duterte was a populist revolt against, in order, the upper class, the bien pensants, and Manila, on the part of the poor, the middle, and the provincial. But it was brought about not through any new resentments or depravities, but by increasing prosperity, education, reduced political corruption, and general sophistication.
Duterte is, like Trump, more an instrument of the people than their exploiter. His personal deficiencies, to the extent they are, are incidental. And many objections to Duterte should be more justly laid at the feet of his people, not him, as he, unfiltered as he is, truly is their representative, their ethnic id.
Brooks is facile, and I doubt he has a grasp of the US situation either.
He is consistent with what he ran on.
This is absolutely true. He lies, he bullies, and confronts first and last. He ran on those behaviors and principles and he governs that way. I'm sorry to see that there are people who believe supporting someone with such poor character for tactical or political gain is going end up well for them.
Chest Rockwell: I also read the Mexico's leading presidential contender is advocating sending all 'migrants' to the United States, because it's a 'human right' to setting in the US. He didn't mention Mexico.
It's common for Mexican pols to talk smack about the U.S. and bloviate about the "rights" of Mexicans or any other non-Americans to migrate to the U.S., suck at the welfare state teat, etc. It plays well to the Mexican public, the U.S. MSM doesn't report much of it, and most Americans never hear about it.
He needs a bigger megaphone, and a translator for all such comments. That'll really kill Trump's popularity. C'mon, MSM guys, get to work! MOAR Mexican election coverage, please.
Here is another problem for the Dems - a recent Tweat:
Donald J. Trump
✔
@realDonaldTrump
Drudge Report “OBAMA KEPT THEM IN CAGES, WRAPPED THEM IN FOIL” We do a much better job while at the same time maintaining a MUCH stronger Border! Mainstream Fake Media hates this story.
6:52 AM - Jun 23, 2018
Notice how he has flipped the script on them. Most everyone here knows what he was talking about, but if you don’t, it is easy to find out - the MSM tried, again, as usual, to attack him with Fake News, and, as usual, failed miserably, after the truth about the story got out.
What is the most empathetic action is to end the inducement for parents to drag their children through the desert to get into the US. That will stop the whole problem. A wall. But we are supposed to overlook all future, predictable problems because of a baby crying who was, according to her own mother, tired from being dragged across the desert and caught crossing the border illegally.
I think we have another fool. What do you know about Socrates?
Aren't you the one who ALWAYS complains how nasty the people on the left are as soon they show up. STFU clown. I'm not interested in arguing with you anymore.
I follow a lot of Catholic moms on Twitter and Instagram, and nearly every comment on the immigration issue is an overwrought emotional appeal to the crying babies. The BABIES!!! If anyone dares to engage in any sort of conversation that veers away from piling on of the virtue signaling, they are blasted for being a racist hater. I’ve seen it over and over these past couple weeks.
It's this type of online interaction makes people who don’t speak up relate to Trump because they too feel attacked. I don’t have the desire to engage in such discussions, but I take offense to the presumption that any objection to the stated position stems from my horrible, sinful character.
The quiet people are pushing back.
What a crybaby.
Another word on Goldwater and the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
How many remember Hubert Humphrey saying, "If this law results in quotas, I will eat the bill?"
How many ?
That bill and the 1965 voting rights bill were the end of federalism in this country.
I follow a lot of Catholic moms on Twitter and Instagram, and nearly every comment on the immigration issue is an overwrought emotional appeal to the crying babies. The BABIES!!!
Imagine how emotional and irrational people get when you take children away from parents in their name. Hard to believe.
This is absolutely true. He lies, he bullies, and confronts first and last.
So coal miners, for example, are not supposed to resist having their livelihood eliminated by the power elites, and if they resist, they are bullies confronting people who are their betters? Is that how it goes?
Give an example, not these generalizations. Specific examples. We know the kids in the cages were from the Obama administration. 2014.
STFU clown. I'm not interested in arguing with you anymore.
Hilarious. No mention of his/her knowledge of Socrates.
What argument ? The one in your head ?
Also:
Aren't you the one who ALWAYS complains how nasty the people on the left are as soon they show up.
No, just the worst of you fools. Thanks for the example.
Karen of Texas said...
@Inga
Serious question. If you can say you and by extension "the Left" care about those children, why can't those on "the right" say they care and be believed?
Because actions speak louder than words? What have you and "the Left" done to lift those poor, suffering, abused, terrified, pick and adjective children out of their awful existence? Why don't you care enough about their plight to do something?
Other than saying how much you care?
Don't ask Inga or the leftists to actually do anything.
They just want power.
That is why they only bring up poverty or poor people when Republicans are presidents.
Every single time.
As soon as they get that power they will forget about the little people that elected them.
Everyone is noticing how much better Black people are doing under Trump than they did under Obama.
As many people have said, the insane press and the thuggery of the left have made Trump supporters out of the those who were previously agnostic about him.
You will have no one to blame but yourselves should he win 40 states in 2020. You will have earned the suck, leftists.
I just wonder if sacredcow is a sock puppet of Ritmo. The similarity is certainly there, along with the empty abusive comments.
No information., Just obscenity,
No, just the worst of you fools. Thanks for the example.
You whine ALL the time how nasty people on the left are here. You've been doing it for months if not years you giant baby.
@sakredkow,
This is absolutely true. He lies, he bullies, and confronts first and last. He ran on those behaviors and principles and he governs that way. I'm sorry to see that there are people who believe supporting someone with such poor character for tactical or political gain is going end up well for them.
This is what it's all about for you, isn't it? You don't want to come here and talk specific cases, specific policies, political science or political philosophies involved.
You just want to come here & PUH-REECH IT! to us poor benighted savages.
We've been through this. We've been through this thousands of times now on this very forum.
The way forward for you & yours is not to tell us how awful we are to support Trump. It just isn't. The way forward for you & yours is to have a profound & searching post-mortem of why it is your side put forward HRC as its anointed standard bearer. As far as I can see, that hasn't even begun.
Until you fix yourselves, you won't be able to even start on fixing us.
"He lies, he bullies, and confronts first and last."
Oh noes! That has never happened in American politics before!
If you want to have a serious discussion about the policies of the current administration, you really have to learn that your personal loathing of the President is immaterial, and tends to weaken your arguments (such as they are) about policy.
But sakredcow,
In this manner, he wins. He has been winning. With words, he defeats his enemies and pleases his supporters. Victory is better than defeat, as defeat means suppression and erasure and oblivion.
He is, moreover, your national id.
What you think, deep in your hearts, but are too constrained to say, he bares.
He liberates you to argue honestly.
Indeed, he challenges you to argue honestly, without pretense.
I just wonder if sacredcow is a sock puppet of Ritmo.
This another of your repetitious whinings. Over and over and over again. Sockpuppets! Grow-the-fuck up and make your arguments, you little snot.
"STFU clown. I'm not interested in arguing with you anymore."
Ooooohh, I bet that put him in his place.
Being serious here, has anyone on this thread heard of any real democratic solutions
Sinz52, SacredKow, Inga and probably others are all leftist participating in this thread. Here's a perfectly good question. No one has even tried to engage. But we do get responses like:
Not interested in arguing with the tedious whataboutist, you're another, but-but-but-but-what-about purveryors of Trumpism.
I'm not talking with or to the "They-did-it-to-us-we-can-do-anything-to them" crowd. There's nothing to discuss. No shared values. Tough.
No ask yourselves why?
I think because their solution is an open border (one way). But they don't know why they are for it. What about depressed wages for marginal workers. Overwhelmed safety nets. Unmanageable government benefits.
You can't have open borders and a welfare state. But the left wants both.
My guess their emotions are being manipulated by the cheap labor (compare Caesar Chavis) big business groups and the DNC pay masters and the desire for more Dem voters by the DNC corporate offices.
In this manner, he wins. He has been winning. With words, he defeats his enemies and pleases his supporters. Victory is better than defeat, as defeat means suppression and erasure and oblivion.
He is, moreover, your national id.
What you think, deep in your hearts, but are too constrained to say, he bares.
He liberates you to argue honestly.
Indeed, he challenges you to argue honestly, without pretense.
Trump, you mean? I don't necessarily disagree with this. "You" being a selection of people who respond well to that kind of stuff.
sakredkow: This is absolutely true. He lies, he bullies, and confronts first and last. He ran on those behaviors and principles and he governs that way. I'm sorry to see that there are people who believe supporting someone with such poor character for tactical or political gain is going end up well for them.
Ffs, get some new material. And something of better quality than this fact-free emo opinionating sourced from catlady central.
They really don't send their best. How many lefties have cycled through here posting the exact same finger-wagging cant?
Please tell me this isn't their best.
Inga cares so much, she’s still at home.
The firemen have to come and take her out of the picture window with a pair of cherry pickers and a nylon sling.
Grow-the-fuck up and make your arguments, you little snot..
Be my guest, make your argument against Brooks.
Same person.
Although the sock puppet thing is stupid. Deal with the arguments, a lot of times there is more than one person who disagrees with you.
Quite a few Trump supporters whom I've talked with, - sinz52
We like pushing grandmothers off cliffs, too. You left that out.
I think because their solution is an open border (one way).
Open borders? No way! Not for me.
“Serious question. If you can say you and by extension "the Left" care about those children, why can't those on "the right" say they care and be believed?”
“I don’t care, do you?” Oh how that was loved by folks here.
I base my observation about lack of empathy for these kids on the many many many comments here displaying exactly that. You don’t have a clue as to what I’ve done to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak. The fact that I’m here pushing back against you folks is just a very small piece of what I do to practice what I preach. When I was in better health, I made a trip almost every year to Central and South America on church missions.
I ask how can you and those who supposedly care push back so hard against Democrats and liberal’s outrage over this issue? Are you seriously saying we should not care? The question is, why don’t you folks care as much as we do? Is it because your President with his Zero Tolerance Policy caused it to happen in these numbers?
Until you fix yourselves, you won't be able to even start on fixing us.
They have no ideas. Just abuse and threats and cutting and pasting stuff they haven't read.
It looks like he/she is just going shit on this thread the way Ritmo does.
This is the way Trump wins but they can't even see that.
I agree that the GOP Congress should stop trying to pass a bill on immigration. Just wait for the election.
If the stupids win, there is no hope. I don't think that will happen but we will have to see.
I expect we will see more trash comments now.
buwaya said...
Brooks is facile, and I doubt he has a grasp of the US situation either.
You more than anyone know that Brooks is a tool that is paid to say what he says.
Brooks no more believes and of the things he says any more than Time Magazine believed their cover story.
Brooks is a tool of the 20 or so people who own the US media.
He is a tool and his job is to define what "good" conservatives think so they can castigate the deplorables.
To me, the odd thing about the writing was to equate “Republicans” with the people who are digging in deeper in their support of Trump. The numbers do indeed tell us that most self-identified Republicans do support Trump. But “most” isn’t adequate for the purposes Jack Schaefer is putting it.
I could have read all of it without much concern, but for the the presumption that Republicans are supporting even the most dubious impulses of the Trump Administration.
It would be interesting if there was some anonymous polling of Congressional Republicans.
Michael K: I just wonder if sacredcow is a sock puppet of Ritmo.
Not Ritmo, but he (she) sure sounds familiar. One of that rotating bunch of petulant Dunning-Kruger display specimens, with a new pseudonym.
Notice that sakerdcow has no solution to the problem, no examples, just an inchoate and unintelligible hatred of Trump. Just feedback of the hate he hears every day in the media.
Although the sock puppet thing is stupid. Deal with the arguments, a lot of times there is more than one person who disagrees with you.
Deal with the arguments - good policy. And I don't pretend I have all the answers to all the arguments. And I'm okay with being disagreed with in principle.
That sockpuppet sh*t though...and the guy who always trafficks in that...he's gotta just get lost.
The rest of you can stay for now. :-D
Being serious here, has anyone on this thread heard of any real democratic solutions other than melodramatic hand wringing?
They don't want solutions. They want to scream, yell, stomp their feet and throw tantrums and then demand you vote for them so they'll stop screaming, yelling, stomping their feet and throwing tantrums.
The last thing they want is a solution.
It would be interesting if there was some anonymous polling of Congressional Republicans.
I think this is a serious issue. They are being given marching orders by donors.
It was no mystery, but ignored by the left, that the Koch Brothers opposed Trump.
t would be interesting if there was some anonymous polling of Congressional Republicans.
Oh we already know what they think. The wish the R-base would just go away, though trenches and Gatling guns may be a bit extreme.
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