"That’s a feeling Hayley McLean can identify with. She was recently diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) as a result of the bullying she endured as a child. For the 35-year-old mother of three, from Paignton, Devon, even the thought of being surrounded by other women is enough to bring on a panic attack. 'It started in primary school,’ recalls Hayley. ‘A girl took a sudden dislike to me. She’d call me names in front of the other kids — goofy, skinny, ugly — and she’d threaten and intimidate me....'"
From "Why do some women have NO female friends? Here three of them describe the isolation that began in childhood and how they yearn to overcome it."
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124 comments:
A trauma for all and for all a trauma.
every role she’s had is a character exhibiting same.
Is it because they are feckless cunts?
Someone should tell her the secret that female friendship is completely different in adult world.
Why are girls so mean?
Why are girls so mean?
Because Patriarchy.
Gaia's fitness function that favors couple formation.
@rehajm - but she plays that role so well. In Homeland,you can practically smell her sweaty pussy.
Girls are such cunts sometimes.
The crassness of crevasses.
Why are girls so mean?
Ask Ritmo.
It's too bad those woman are stuck in childhood, per Freeman Hunt's comment. I wonder why their parents didn't help more to have them overcome the trauma.
(PTSD) as a result of the bullying she endured as a child.
Maybe she had been buttoned-up, tumbled, channeled and pushed up.
"Why do females have no female friends?"
Because they actually deal with women without pussy tinted glasses on?
Most of us are affected by childhood traumas--our comfort or discomfort with a situation determined by something that happened to us when very young. And most of us never know what or why. And without knowing why, overcoming it is much more difficult. Sometimes impossible.
For the record, boys have a good fight, and walk away satiated. Emotions have a high capacity for torture in perpetuity. Find a good boy, let emotion take fight.. I mean, flight, and allow chivalry for a better day.
The best way to handle a bully, is to get even.
Paignton, Devon
Well, then -
Stomach-churning moment a seagull attempts to swallow a foot-long rat whole – but has to regurgitate it and try again because it's so big
At least she didn't end up burned at the stake. But I have sympathy for her dealing with it, less so for her making a big public show of it. But maybe there is good in that too, to help others who may not know why they feel the way they do and maybe it can change.
A sad reinforcing cycle--PTSD stunts development which impedes her forming adult relationships with other women which then keeps her isolated in her PTSD (assuming the diagnosis is accurate). A little sympathy here, folks--she is quite stuck.
I don't have, nor have ever had many female friends. I can count on one hand the women who have been my "friend" as an adult. Women I can open up to, share information and feel I can count on in a pinch. Not that I don't like my female acquaintances.....I just have no desire to hang out with them.
Women friends want to do things "together". Go shopping. Lunch. See movies. Get all up in each other's business. Actually, the idea of a day of shopping and lunching with a group of women friends is horrifying. Tedious and exhausting. The idea of going shopping, at all, is bad enough, but to do it with a bunch of other women....Spare me!!
I worked with women in many aspects of my career. It was awful. I would take working with a bunch of tobacco spitting, profanity spewing, misogynistic men over a flock of illogical and emotional women. At least you can communicate with men without having to jump through a bunch of mysterious hoops.
I am not the type of person who develops close friendships with many people. I have a lot of acquaintances and enjoy socializing, chatting and being around other people but I don't NEED other people. I keep my distance.
This isn't because of trauma. It is because when I was young (until about 10 or 12 yrs old) my family moved around. A LOT. From one side of the country to the other. Staying in one place for a few months or even half of a year! Then moved on. We didn't even live in a house until I was 11. It was because of my parents' work. My mother finally put her foot down and said NO MORE!
We kids were always the "new kids" in school. Several times a year in the same grade. Yeah you get picked on. You just ignore it because this all will pass when we move again. I guess I decided that there was no value in making good friends because in a few months, I would never see them again. Why bother getting too close to people who are not going to be around, was my attitude when I was a kid.
Not every woman NEEDS the same thing. Or WANTS the same thing.
If she thinks being friends with women is tough, she should try asking one on a date as a guy like Norah Vincent did in 'Self Made Man'.
"Dating women was the hardest thing I had to to as Ned, even when the women liked me and I liked them. I have never felt more vulnerable to total strangers, never more socially defenseless than in my clanking suit of borrowed armor."
I blame Trump.
Can't remember the comics name. His line was that no man understands women. But, women understand women - and they hate each other.
I know women like this. How sad that they can’t trust their own sex for friendship. What a loss. I might suggest growing up and stop being ruled by bad childhood experiences. I’ve worked with both women and men and I’ve found that some people are just treacherous no matter what their sex. To trust one sex over another is to invite dissapointment.
Oh boy, it's very challenging for me to make friendships with women. I was bullied and occasionally physically attacked by other girls. Other than an attack by a group of boys when I was 10 (long story)I was not bullied or physically attacked by boys/men. Thankfully I have found, here and there, some kind and interesting women who have been good friends through the years.
Unknown's comment at 1240h is appearing in multiple Althouse blog posts. I suggest you don't open any of his links.
I might suggest growing up and stop being ruled by bad childhood experiences
Hence the name "Nurse Ratchet." You should put out a shingle, and when people come to you suffering from personal torment, suicidal tendencies, depression, you could just tell them to knock it off! Psych nurse? Ha ha ha! Inga has a cure for PSTD: "Stop it! Grow up!"
@DBQ,
I worked with women in many aspects of my career. It was awful. I would take working with a bunch of tobacco spitting, profanity spewing, misogynistic men over a flock of illogical and emotional women. At least you can communicate with men without having to jump through a bunch of mysterious hoops.
I am not the type of person who develops close friendships with many people. I have a lot of acquaintances and enjoy socializing, chatting and being around other people but I don't NEED other people. I keep my distance.
Are you my wife & you're posting here secretly without telling me? 'Cause, those are words that my wife would say in a heartbeat.
My wife has always preferred the company of men, & it's not because she could work her wiles on them, because she is not "physically favored". I think it's because, growing up in a large family, she was close to her father & brothers.
Throughout our marriage, I often encouraged her to develop some stronger bonds with our female friends, but to no avail. Now, after a battle with a serious illness, she is better at working on her female friendships. But, when her doctor discusses support groups I see her eyes roll, and she'll later tell me "Oh, right. Like I don't feel shitty enough without sitting & listening to a bunch of women bitch & moan for an hour".
Old habits die hard.
Tim, I guess I’ll have to explain it so you understand. I said don’t allow bad childhood experiences to RULE your adult life. What type of nurse would I be to watch my patients or anyone who is locked in abnormal/ destructive/ neurotic behavior to continue it without suggesting doing something to improve it? If you can’t get past your childhood experiences you can therapy, you can take meds, you can try to grow up, you can stop wallowing in your disfunction. It’s called tough love, being forthright, and caring enough to try to make things better for those who are suffering. You think nurses and or any medical/ physch caregiver should become enablers? What a dumb comment Tim, even for you. Also, FYI, psych nursing was only a very small part of my 35 career as a nurse.
Women talk women-stuff, and not everybody is interested.
YoungHegelian Are you my wife & you're posting here secretly without telling me? 'Cause, those are words that my wife would say in a heartbeat.
LOL. Nope. Not your wife.
"Oh, right. Like I don't feel shitty enough without sitting & listening to a bunch of women bitch & moan for an hour".
She does sound like someone I could relate to :-)
“Oh, right. Like I don't feel shitty enough without sitting & listening to a bunch of women bitch & moan for an hour".”
How would being in a group of male support group members be more therapeutic or supportive to her? I really can’t identify with women who dislike their own sex. How sad. I’m pretty sure that men in a support group would be speaking about their issues too. Why would this be any less annoying to her?
I might be wrong but in my experience, I’ve seen this sort of rejection of a woman’s own sex for friendship and support to be more prevalent in conservative/ libertarian women.
@Inga,
I’m pretty sure that men in a support group would be speaking about their issues too. Why would this be any less annoying to her?
She wouldn't be too fond of a male group, either.
But, women, from her point of view are whinier about it, and as DBQ points out, are more circuitous in their expression of their misery.
There's a reason you survived as a nurse, Inga. If you could stand that profession, then clearly you enjoy the company of other women. We've had this discussion here Chez Althouse multiple times -- many women don't, & they especially don't like working with other women.
When I was young I thought this dislike was a feature of my wife not being a "girly girl". I have since met quite a few "girly girls" who share this antipathy. It's all very mysterious to me, & I have absolutely no intention of trying to fathom the female mind before I kick the bucket, so it's going to stay mysterious.
I recall as a young mother, I lived in a city neighborhood, with other mothers of young children. We were each other’s support group. We watched each other’s kids, helped out a fellow mom who was sick or had just given birth with meals and household help. We had a few moms whose husbands traveled for work or were in the military and were not near their own families and we were there for each other in so many ways. I’m still friends with several of them despite living far away from each other now. It’s truly sad to see grown women who either choose or cannot have other women to be close to.
Freeman Hunt said...
Someone should tell her the secret that female friendship is completely different in adult world.
Not from what I've seen and observed.
But the, the previous workplace I was in was like a HS among the men. All of whom were close to the same age, had all lived around the area their whole lives, had dated the same people, had never served in the military, and for most of them- had never traveled out of state. I was a complete outsider. And treated that way for my entire time of employment there. Not all men grow up either.
@Inga,
I’ve seen this sort of rejection of a woman’s own sex for friendship and support to be more prevalent in conservative/ libertarian women.
I don't think that's the case. I just think that it's more acceptable for women in conservative/ libertarian circles to be able to state that women are not exactly paragons of virtue (and by virtue, I mean in the full classical sense, not chastity).
As Prof Althouse has often pointed out, in the common media, women are the equals of men except when they're better. My view is that modernity has no idea of what constitutes female virtue, & so the default position is that being female, like being minority, is virtuous in and of itself. The criticism of this position occurs mostly among conservatives/libertarians.
YH said...
“I don't think that's the case. I just think that it's more acceptable for women in conservative/ libertarian circles to be able to state that women are not exactly paragons of virtue (and by virtue, I mean in the full classical sense, not chastity).”
Who said that women are paragons of virtue? Women are as human as men. Humans are not paragons of virtue. Liberal women aren’t under any delusion that members of their own sex can’t be hateful, but we also know men can be equally hateful, yet we don’t reject our own sex for friendship as much as libertarian/ conservative women seem to.
Inga said...
“I’ve worked with both women and men and I’ve found that some people are just treacherous no matter what their sex. To trust one sex over another is to invite disappointment.”
I would take working with a bunch of tobacco spitting, profanity spewing, misogynistic men over a flock of illogical and emotional women.
The viciousness of girls (and women) is the biggest mystery of the mysterious sex. Boys certainly engaging in bullying, but it has a positive social function. Boys on the inside must challenge the outsider to ensure he measures up. Most bullying among boys is actually hazing, a kind of "basic training". The boy who passes is accepted into the fellowship of men. He doesn't need to win the fight, he only needs defend himself with the same weapons, either words or fists, to take the blows without too much balling and perhaps send a few punches back at his tormentors, to gain admittance. The boy who runs for the intervention of a parental figure is, however, damned to the outer darkness. This can be seen throughout history, at least as far as the Spartan agōgē, and probably back to our apeman progenitors. Among girls, there is no acceptance. The bullied girl is forever an outcast it seems.
Blogger James Smith said...
Can't remember the comics name. His line was that no man understands women. But, women understand women - and they hate each other..
I've seen it attributed to Al Bundy on Married With Children.
“Blogger James Smith said...
Can't remember the comics name. His line was that no man understands women. But, women understand women - and they hate each other.. “
Average normal well adjusted women do not hate each other. What do men think about another man, a heterosexual, that does not have male friends and only seeks out the company of women for friendship (not sex)? Do they think it’s normal?
Acrophobia - fear of heights
Arachnophobia - fear of spiders
Claustrophobia - fear of closets
How would one state in Greek "fear of female friendships"?
Fecklesscuntphobia??
@Inga,
What do men think about another man, a heterosexual, that does not have male friends and only seeks out the company of women for friendship (not sex)?
Those men are called homosexual.
Strangely enough, it rarely happens. Oh, there are French savants like Sartre & Voltaire who talk about how much they enjoyed the company of women, but they were getting pussy out of it, too.
The young woman in a passel of male friends gets not just the differing way that males relate, but she also gets the advantage of male physical protection out of the relationship. For example, as a young man, I often heard from women of places they went, often for the first time, e.g. a porn store, in the company of male friends. They simply would not have felt safe doing so otherwise. For men, there is often no external advantage to be gained by asexual female companionship.
“Those men are called homosexual.”
So should I assume the same thing about females who reject female companionship? Again, it’s not a sign of a well adjusted adult when that person rejects their own sex for friendship. Something is amiss and therapy could help. PTSD or some neurosis doesn’t need to RULE one’s life.
A little sympathy here, folks
Sorry, dude, this is Althouse. All scorn, all the time. Especially toward women.
:)
I’ve known of women who have had no female friends and it’s actually caused their relationship with their husbands to suffer. I’ve seen some women like this who depend too much on their husbands for everything, amusement, companionship, support in areas that men don’t often understand or can help with, etc. etc. If I were a man whose wife had no female friends, or at least sisters, I’d feel a bit smothered. I’d encourage her to make some damn friends for Pete’s ( himself) sake and stop hanging around all his friends.
@Inga,
So should I assume the same thing about females who reject female companionship?
Nope. The converse doesn't work that way. Lesbians generally aren't too fond of men, especially since modern lesbianism seems to be polluted by feminist ideology a good part of the time nowadays.
Why are you being so judgemental about this? Folks are just different. But, it certainly doesn't mystify me why a certain kind of young woman would figure out that young men, both as friends & as sexual partners, can not only be useful when moving apartments & white water rafting, but they're just, on average, quite a bit of fun in general once you get past the scruffiness.
I went to an all-girls high school. That was enough to disabuse me of any notions about the supposed moral superiority of females. And it struck me then and later in life that the most strident feminists were also the cattiest, bitchiest ones, the ones who tore down other girls behind their backs. So I became very cynical about "the Sisterhood" early on.
I have 7 very good girlfriends - 4 of them I have known from childhood and 3 of them were women I became friends with in DC and have stayed in touch with. I love and trust them. However, I don't get the chance to see that much of them and I find I am spending more and more time with my sisters. The age differences and sibling rivalry mattered when we were kids, but don't matter now. So I'd have to say that my sisters are my best friends now, which wasn't the case when we were teens.
DBQ wrote:
"I worked with women in many aspects of my career. It was awful. I would take working with a bunch of tobacco spitting, profanity spewing, misogynistic men over a flock of illogical and emotional women. At least you can communicate with men without having to jump through a bunch of mysterious hoops."
I agree! Men are much easier to work with, in my experience. There's always soap opera crap and back-biting going on in an office filled with women and I also get weary of Friday cupcake day and office birthday celebrations and silly contests, which are always seem to be initiated by women. I had a female boss who was always coming up with cutesy word games and trivia contests. She meant well and thought it improved morale. What improved my morale at work was getting a raise, not winning a damn cookie because I aced a trivia test.
DBQ
My wife shares your view of women as friends, shopping, the whole bit. Like you she worked for many years in the securities business trading bonds on a desk for a major wire house. She is whip smart and generally appalled at the cluelessness of most of the women she knows. I think being around men for all those years, working at all for that matter, has made the difference in her outlook. She is logical, detail oriented and can be combative if required. Pretty decisive as that goes as it should be for a former bond trader. She admits she was not as good at taking and shaking off losses as her male colleagues.
Sounds like toxic femininity.
“Why are you being so judgemental about this?”
Ha, I’m being judgmental? I’m pushing back agains this sort of nonsense.
“Can't remember the comics name. His line was that no man understands women. But, women understand women - and they hate each other..”
“The viciousness of girls (and women) is the biggest mystery of the mysterious sex.”
“Among girls, there is no acceptance. The bullied girl is forever an outcast it seems.”
“Girls are such cunts sometimes.”
“Is it because they are feckless cunts?”
“Why are girls so mean?”
“Why do females have no female friends?"
Because they actually deal with women without pussy tinted glasses on?”
"I might suggest growing up and stop being ruled by bad childhood experiences.
Jordan Peterson and I would agree with that statement.
In the therapy world, that goal is reached once in a while. Many people find it difficult to take control of their adult lives.
I have the day off and actually spent the morning shopping with a girlfriend. We dug through the racks at soon-to-be defunct Boston Store (I damn near cried when I found out it was closing) and found some great deals. Going shopping with a friend whose taste you trust is helpful as well as fun and I have never known a straight man who enjoys shopping, unless it's Cabela's or Home Depot.
Young Helgian said re his wife: women, from her point of view are whinier about it, and as DBQ points out, are more circuitous in their expression of their misery.
Circuitous is a good way to put it.
This way that many women (and rarely men) have of not being able to focus, get to the point, cut to the chase, state the facts, decide on a mode of action and do it.....without all the talking and emotion is frustrating. Just tell me what you want!
Plus the unspoken thoughts that I/we are supposed to be able to magically intuit. I don't have time to play guessing games about what is unsaid or about your emotions. I can't read your mind. Just TELL ME!
I get it that people are not emotionless robots. It just seems that many women are overly emotional, illogical and those things get in the way of communication. Being overly emotional or sensitive plus being uncommunicative causes no end of problems in all levels of life and especially in the workplace.
Be judgemental with our local misogynists (myself included) all you want. I just don't understand why you find it not just strange, but psychologically imbalanced, for a woman to prefer the company of men. That's the judgmentalism I was referring to.
As I said above, when the sexual, emotional, & especially the advantages that the physical presence of men are confers on women, the only thing that surprises me is that more women aren't bent that way.
“I just don't understand why you find it not just strange, but psychologically imbalanced, for a woman to prefer the company of men. That's the judgmentalism I was referring to.”
A the risk of being called some nasty name, I’ll be honest and say it’s not normal or well adjusted in the adult world. Something is amiss when an adult woman dislikes her own sex so much so that she rejects any female friendships. Women in our ancient history banded together for companionship and support, as men banded together for whatever their reasons were. Why is it normal in modern society for women to reject other women for friendship?
" I have never known a straight man who enjoys shopping, unless it's Cabela's or Home Depot.
I resemble that remark. When I was renovating a house, I very much enjoyed shopping at Berland's House of Tools. Shopping for clothes, furniture, etc. not so much. Maybe that partly accounts for growing on-line sales.
@inga,
Something is amiss when an adult woman dislikes her own sex so much so that she rejects any female friendships.
Re-read my first post. I certainly said nothing about rejecting female friendship. We have many long-time female friends extending now over 35 years. She just prefers the company of men, which is quite different than "rejecting" female friendship.
tcrosse said... [hush][hide comment]
Why are girls so mean?
Ask Ritmo.
Bullied as an adult by American women (with perfect pear shaped breasts) of all colors...
" I have never known a straight man who enjoys shopping, unless it's Cabela's or Home Depot.
My husband loves to go thrift store and antique store shopping! He will make a U-turn to get to a likely looking store. He collects various things from vintage metal trucks, old prints, and even some types of glassware that reminds him of his childhood. He even knows what I collect, what pieces of my collection I need and buys them for me if I'm not shopping with him.
Clothes shopping....forget about it. Carharts and Levis and he is done. That's cool. I hate to shop for clothes too.
Inga says Something is amiss when an adult woman dislikes her own sex so much so that she rejects any female friendships.
That's a pretty big leap there. Rejecting hanging out, being friends, with certain types of women/people does not mean hating my own sex. There are types of people who are just annoying and tedious. The fact is that many more of those types seem to be women.
Why should I be guilt tripped into being "friends" with people that I don't like, or who annoy the ever lovin' you know what out of me, because we have the same plumbing fixtures?
YH,
I was thinking about the women in the article, moreso than your wife, or the women here who have said they prefer men as friends, but that’s still an anomaly. To have a panic attack when you are in the of other women at some social function? Not at all normal or a good way to live one’s life. How limiting. The women in the article say they “yearn” to overcome it.
Bossy women are my least favorite people to be around. I can identify with what DBQ said although I always had girlfriends when growing up and even as a young adult. The problem is finding women with whom I have common interests. Like my mother, the older I get, the more reclusive I become and, as with my mother, a good book is my favorite company.
A friend of mine has an older sister who is an ex-pat living in Paris. Her daughter was much taller than the French girls she went to school with and was nicknamed "giraffe." (Being American did not boost her popularity either.) Well, giraffe grew up to be fashion model gorgeous - but other females still did not want to be her friend, because she is so beautiful. I think it is entirely possible that beautiful women can end up being isolated from both sexes, because women are jealous and men are intimidated. Of course, it can also be because the beautiful woman is a bitch, but from what I know of my friend's niece that was not true in her case. She is shy and when very attractive people are shy, it is easy to mistake it for aloofness. Her best friend is a gay guy. I would imagine that many beautiful women, particularly in the fashion world, find forming friendships with gay men much easier than forming friendships with women.
Since I was, objectively speaking, in the "cute, but not beautiful" category, I am not speaking from first-hand experience. Perhaps Bruce Hayden can weigh in on this, since his partner was a model.
DBQ asserts: Clothes shopping....forget about it.
All shopping sucks but clothes shopping is the worst!
“Why should I be guilt tripped into being "friends" with people that I don't like, or who annoy the ever lovin' you know what out of me, because we have the same plumbing fixtures?”
Who is guilt tripping you? I’m expressing myself regarding the oddness of disliking one’s own sex. If it’s only women that annoy you and that you want to avoid, I’d say that is strange. Sorry.
Exiled, I found that good-looking women tend to be nicer, in general.
Gee, I really like clothes shopping, although I am not the clothes horse I was in my 20's. And yes, I fit the stereotype regarding women and shoes. I can't manage heels higher than an inch now though.
This is why feminists and other female supremacists go on and on about how awful men are. Couple this with the "you go girl" and the overt "sisterhood" bullshit. They are diverting attention away from how awful they really are towards each other.
Toxic Femininity.
"Someone should tell her the secret that female friendship is completely different in adult world."
Based on what my gf describes in her mostly female work environments, it isn't much different, really.
There are just as many shitty women out there as there are shitty men. But, they seem to get a pass in the overall culture in not being called out like the shitty men are.
“There are just as many shitty women out there as there are shitty men.”
True!
“But, they seem to get a pass in the overall culture in not being called out like the shitty men are.”
Not true. Women seem to denigrated as being shitty moreso than men. Read what the majority of comments here say about women.
Unknowingly, Inga provides Exhibit A in this very thread as to why some women can't stand to be around other women.
If you don't think and act the way I do, there is something clinically wrong with you.
And then they're mystified why someone would choose to avoid people like that.
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a shitty woman your wife
Mockturtle says "DBQ asserts: Clothes shopping....forget about it.
All shopping sucks but clothes shopping"
I totally concur. Find an online source that carries the clothes you like and you're good to go!
Who is guilt tripping you? I’m expressing myself regarding the oddness of disliking one’s own sex. If it’s only women that annoy you and that you want to avoid, I’d say that is strange. Sorry.
What is also annoying are people who have zero reading comprehension and try to put words into other people's mouths. Also, people who talk in absolutes.
Where did I say it is only women who annoy? I was quite careful to state types of people and indicate that it seems that it seems that many of those annoying types are women.
No wonder some people tag you with the big C word.
(Words in bold for the reading comprehension impaired)
Not true. Women seem to denigrated as being shitty moreso than men. Read what the majority of comments here say about women.
As the topic is women as bullies, one might expect such comments.
Regarding disparaging entire populations of women in the comments on this blog, your red pill comrade is the leader of the pack.
@Inga,
Women have nothing of substance or worth to give to a friendship?
No, not at all. But, you continue to ignore my point about the physical advantages of male friendship, and by physical I do not mean sexual.
Have you ever been in a white-water raft with 4 women & two men? Well, I have. If you have the choice between getting in a raft with 4 women & 2 men vs a raft with 4 men & 2 women, take the latter. Trust me. There's no shortage of examples like this.
Female friendships are based on shared experiences & shared intimacy (and, no, I mean nothing sexual by the term "intimacy"). Male friendship is based on shared activity/interests. If a woman accustoms herself to the different requirements of male friendship, including its hard knocks, male friendship is just a lot of fun. You just have to be able to put up with men to get it. Most women accomplish this by coming into the world of male friendship as the GF or wife of a man. Others come in on their own.
You may think this is an expression of misogyny, but, to the contrary, it is anything but. Men adore these women who accompany them out into the rumble & tumble.
oops sorry for the double it seems phrasing.
Clothes shopping is a lot easier since I am retired and no longer have to shop for "corporate" office type attire.
I recently finished purging my closet of all but a few dressy items and threw away all of my heels but two pairs. Just in case I have to go to a funeral or wedding :-) I did keep ALL the jewelry though.
“If you don't think and act the way I do, there is something clinically wrong with you.”
Except that’s not what I said.
Inga said...
"I might suggest growing up and stop being ruled by bad childhood experiences.”
Francisco D said...
“Jordan Peterson and I would agree with that statement.”
6/1/18, 2:51 PM
—————————————-
Paminwi quotes me: Mockturtle says "DBQ asserts: Clothes shopping....forget about it.
All shopping sucks but clothes shopping"
What I actually said was, 'All clothes shopping sucks but clothes shopping is the worst'. ;-) But I think you got my point. Trying on clothes in a stuffy dressing room is sheer misery. Had I been rich, I might have hired a personal shopper, someone exactly my size and shape and had her buy all my clothes for me. :-)
The topic of friendship , in general, is bigger and more important than whether some females have trouble making and keeping female friends.
You don't choose your family, but you do choose your friends.
I still remember the admonition in Kindergarten -- to make a friend, you have to be a friend.
I'm lucky, I reckon. I have 9 or 10 bona fide friends, after all these years -- 1 of whom is a female. As you move through life -- work, marriage, kids -- it's hard to sustain good friendships, simply because you can't invest the amount of time you once did when you were younger.
But don't forget your friends! Give them a call, and invite 'em to lunch!
There are people who are introverts, loners, who don’t have close friends of any sex. Those people tend to die younger and have more illness that social people.
Why, yes, Inga! Had my mother not been a recluse in her old age she might have lived to be 102 instead of 92 when she died last year. /s
“Male friendship is based on shared activity/interests.”
So are women’s.
“If a woman accustoms herself to the different requirements of male friendship, including its hard knocks, male friendship is just a lot of fun. You just have to be able to put up with men to get it. Most women accomplish this by coming into the world of male friendship as the GF or wife of a man. Others come in on their own.”
Indeed! I’ve had great friendships with men, my husband being one of them. That fact didn’t make me want to exclude females as friends though.
“You may think this is an expression of misogyny, but, to the contrary, it is anything but. Men adore these women who accompany them out into the rumble & tumble.”
Not at all. I adore men who take me on adventures! However, that doesn’t make want to abandon my female friends. One doesn’t need to choose.
When my husband was alive and cognitively healthy, he and I were inseparable best friends. My dog--who is dying of cancer, I just found out today--has been my best friend for years. Yes, I do have female friends whom I see from time to time but not what I'd call really close, as when I was younger.
BTW, I don't recall Althouse mentioning her close female friends.
@mockturtle,
My dog--who is dying of cancer, I just found out today--has been my best friend for years.
Yeah, that's awful news. My sympathies. I've been through that far too many times in my life.
I remember back in March of 2017 when they X-rayed the lungs of my cat to see how the cancer had spread. Even I with no medical training could see what the Swiss cheese that were his lungs foretold. He died in late May of 2017.
a straight man who enjoys shopping, unless it's Cabela's or Home Depot
Not even there. They are a means to an end. In, out, and on with life.
Thank you, YH! Bucky is 16+ and he's not been himself for a couple of months now. It would be a difficult surgery [fist-size, invasive tumor] with uncertain prognosis so I'm not opting for that. Will euthanize if he seems to be experiencing pain. Still eating. A little. :-(
CS Lewia' discussion of the four loves offers an interesting perspective. Which of the four loves are most men or most women most inclined to or suited for or, even, capable of? This is an entertaining doodle of his talk on philia. The others are storge, agape and eros. All are worth a look.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3hM4izbColg
@ Mockturtle
So sorry about your dog. It is so hard when your pet becomes ill. They are such a part of your life.
We recently lost our two cats, one of which we had for 18 years and the other a lovable boy who became so very ill. We still miss them so very much. It is going to be a long long time, if ever, before we decide to get another pet.
I enjoyed the various points of view on this thread. An interesting mix and I’ll single out Inga for being worth reading on this topic. I find the bulk of the interplay between DBQ, Inga, YH and the turtle I think.
Goodness, mock, I'm sorry to hear that! My Golden Retriever is 15 - ancient for such a big dog-and I know it won't be much longer. He's deaf and blind in one eye and can't run anymore, but he doesn't seem to be in any pain. I just dread the day.
I can't believe I am saying this, but I have to agree with Inga on one point she made at 6/1/18, 2:31 PM. Women I have had relationships with, that did not have female friends, were clingy to the point of exhaustion. I firmly believe that time spent apart is just as important to a relationship as time spent together. Maybe that's just me. However, it does seem that males have an easier time getting along than females do. My daughter is 16 and had three "mortal enemies" by 7th grade. I am 49. Up through middle school, I had fistfights with most of my friends. Won some, lost some. We stayed friends then and are still friends now. I just don't see that dynamic with females.
“Interesting” was the word I left off. “I think” was supposed to be a parenthetical. Oops.
Women are like men, there are all kinds. A man who does not like a certain kind of men might think that he doesn't like men if those are the only kind he's exposed to. Similarly, a woman who is only exposed to a certain kind of woman that she doesn't like might think she doesn't like women. Find ones of the other type.
I have lots of women friends, but that doesn't mean that I'm up for making friends with any woman. I have very little in common with most women (and men!), but so what? You don't have time to be friends with most people anyway. Say you're tough and despise 95% of women. Okay, what about the other 5%? Five percent is a lot of people!
The cuckolded cockholster and bisexual teenage prostitute FullMoon would claim that this makes her a misogynist who hates women.
Al Bundy told soon Bud Bundy, "don't try to understand women, Son ... Women understand women and they hate each other"
5% is a lot of people.
It's just too bad that so many others do so much to make themselves so uninteresting or otherwise socially/personally irredeemable. After a while it does make one jaded.
DBQ: What is also annoying are people who have zero reading comprehension and try to put words into other people's mouths. Also, people who talk in absolutes.
I've resigned myself to the realization that a lot of people can't wrap their heads around statistical distributions. Male friendships and female friendships fall into observable distinct patterns. That doesn't mean *all women* and *all men*.
I don't find many women to be friendship material, and it has nothing to do with "disliking" them, or thinking that there's something wrong with them. I grew up with 5 sisters, and from the start we all had a very "guy" attitude toward friendships - as does my daughter, as did my mother. It's just an inborn temperamental preference.
In general (IN GENERAL!), women want to talk about personal stuff, and their idea of friendship revolves around that sort of "let's talk about our feelings and our personal relationships" intimacy. Even women who enjoy disinterested conversation or shared activities when among men, or in mixed company, have a tendency to relegate female friends to "people I talk to only about personal things" status. I find that sort of stuff not only boring, but off-putting, an intrusion upon a private sphere I'm not interested in sharing. They will also be hurt when you are not forthcoming on the "sharing" stuff, and take it as indifference.
For most women I've known, this is what they mean by friendship with other women. Sadly, throughout life I've had to drop what I thought were growing friendships with some interesting women I otherwise liked very much, because they switched permanently into that (to me) off-putting mode as soon as we started to really get to know each other. They just had a different idea of what friendships with other women were for. Naught wrong with that, but not for me.
Somebody mentioned C.S. Lewis above, and I recall a great line he had about friendship (not verbatim; quoting from memory): "friends do not look at one another; friendship would be ashamed". I suspect that significantly more women than men would be puzzled by that beautiful line. One of the joys of my life was finding another girl early in my school days who "got" that line. She was my friend.
I prefer the company of men over females. I cherish the few really solid relationships I have with other females because I don't really like most other females. I can count on one hand my close female friends.
Yes, I'd like more females as friends, I guess. But i'm picky and life is short. I'm also really irritable and I don't want to inflict that on others. Except you all here.
Thanks.
Peepee likes us. He really really likes us.
Good insight, Angle-Dyne.
WTH was that about?
Ritmo Brasileiro said...
It's good to know that the stupidest threads are just ripe for the threadjacking. I'll be sure to leave a trail of turds on every one of the brain droppings here that suit my fancy.
Male friendship is based on shared activity/interests.”
So are women’s.
Sitting around Cutting other women down?
It’s called tough love, being forthright, and caring enough to try to make things better for those who are suffering.
LOL. Whatever.
We should send Inga down to the veteran’s hospital to tell those goldbrickers to get over their PSTD by growing up. She could set up a booth and yell at them.
I've had some male friends for years. We mostly exchange jokes. I don't confide any personal details beyond mentioning my muscle ache du jour. On the other hand, it's kind of soothing to talk about sorrows and stupid shit like that with women.......Claire Danes is a movie star, and she looks like a movie star. I don't think she experiences loneliness the way we experience loneliness. Whenever she feels down and alone in a hostile world,she can always call up someone like Harvey, and he'll be over in a flash to share his feelings with her.
I am one of these ladies with no or few female friends. I hate the things our culture expects women to do and care about; "each other" falls way down the list. I have many thoughts and comments about this, but I'm fairly sure none of you care in the slightest.
Are men and women different again? It's hard to keep track.
FullMoon said...
many things that no one read
and no one cared about
IOW blah blah blah
Jimi Hendrix said: “blah, blah, woof woof.”
You’re welcome.
@exiledonmainstreet - Ha ha ha! I am a straight man who ENJOYS shopping for clothes with women! One of the jobs I had in my youth was working at a women's clothing store as the receiving clerk. I was the only male employee of the shop. Whenever a new shipment came in, the women in the shop had to try things on and to my surprise, wanted the opinion of a man. I was pressed into service. This gave me valuable experience and insight into the minds of women. If you find women attractive, as I do, it can be a pleasant experience to help them decide about clothes. I have even taught other men the zen of clothes shopping with women. A personal highlight was shopping at Harrod's in London a few years ago with one of my young female assistants. I was helping her select a business suit and another woman overheard me talking to her and asked her permission for me to advise her. Think Mel Gibson in "What Women Want". :)
Personally, for me....I think girls are catty. I grew up in a household of boys, and cannot stand hanging with girls....I would rather hang with the boys. Less drama!!
FullMoon [and PeePee*] said...
many things that no one read
and no one cared about
IOW blah blah blah
Fixed it for you.
I wish the term wouldn’t be PTSD, which is mostly associated with soldiers returning from truly traumatic experiences.
What this woman’s mental disorder is, it is not on the same level. Many, many people, women and men, have gone through stresses as a child. It’s part of growth. This woman is unable to function normally, by my reckoning based on obviously limited knowledge of this particular situation. Indeed I’d see her has self-centered and the reason she can’t get over it, and has to have an ‘article’ written about her.
Indeed I’d see her has self-centered and the reason she can’t get over it, and has to have an ‘article’ written about her.
Maybe you an Inga could set up a practice!
You obviously suck at "fixing" things, tim. Go ahead and quote a single thing "FullMoon" ever said that you cared to read about.
Go on.
“I prefer the company of men over females. I cherish the few really solid relationships I have with other females because I don't really like most other females. I can count on one hand my close female friends.”
Sounds like the two women I have been involved with over the last 30 years or so. Neither has ever had more than a couple of female friends, at any time since at least junior high. My ex, mother of my kid, has essentially had, two BFFs, one after the other, since HS, and then a couple other close female friends, though not quite as close or durable. My partner long time had close female friends 10-20 years older than she, who would periodically die off, and one friend from junior high, whom she stayed loyal to, just because, until that friend turned on her a decade ago. She has a daughter who seems to be filling the female friend slot. Both had brothers, and I think both wanted, at some point early in life, to have been boys, mostly because of what the boys got to do, as contrasted to the girls.
In both cases, these women seem to trust men far more than most women. I contrast this with my mother who always had a lot of female friends, many very good friends. She had no brothers or male cousins, and far more aunts than uncles. And I think that even after raising 5 boys, never figured out the male thing.
I think that one reason that my partner and I are approaching 20 years together is that I haven’t had the problems with her having good male friends. Her ex, and the fiancé between him and me, both had a jealous streak, when it came to other guys and her. I don’t. I first met her best friend in the hospital, after a major health event on her part. I gave them privacy, which I think that she needed. And helped him get her a passport to take her to Italy for her 50th birthday (something I sure couldn’t afford at that point, with a kid in private school, getting ready for college). He politely offered maybe 35 years ago to have an affair with her. She politely declined, and he never tried again. It isn’t just that guy (her BFF) - last weekend in Missoula, she got into an hour long discussion with two different ranchers she met at the hotel - something that she would never do with women. The bonus for me here is that it allows me to have good female friends. Yesterday was the birthday of a woman I dated when she was 18 and I was 19. Sent a card, and texted her. She responded that I never forget, with the implication that with the loss a couple years ago of her husband, it is only her kids and I who always remember. He was always a bit jealous, I think, though he shouldn’t have been. When we get back to AZ, my partner wants to meet her. Both are artistic, and former dancers. But I caution that she needs to keep her hyper-competitive side toned down. That is something that guys understand, but women don’t nearly as much, at least directly.
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