Althouse: "Political correctness: a force for good?"

May 21, 2018

"Political correctness: a force for good?"

A debate with Michael Eric Dyson and Michelle Goldberg for the proposition and Stephen Fry and Jordan Peterson against.

109 comments:

LordSomber said...: Jeez, Dyson is such an unconvincing airbag.; 5/21/18, 7:17 AM
J. Farmer said...: Watched this the other day and was not particularly impressed. None of the four seemed to agree on what it was they were discussing, perhaps because "political correctness" is a broad concept meaning different things to different people. The actual resolution was, "What you call political correctness, I call progress." Everyone play their part, though. Goldberg uhh and ummed her way through a rambling stalk; Dyson does his typical black preacher hucksterism; Peterson gave his typical pensive pained routine; and Fry was witty and self-regarding.; 5/21/18, 7:24 AM
J. Farmer said...: @LordSomber:

Jeez, Dyson is such an unconvincing airbag.

Dyson, like Cornel West, is a master of grandiloquent turn of phrases that, after about three seconds' reflection, turn out to be either bland truisms or patent nonsense.; 5/21/18, 7:26 AM
Leland said...: I read that the polling of the audience before and after showed a 6pt swing towards PC being bad.; 5/21/18, 7:26 AM
John Henry said...: Depends on the meaning of "good".

Not everyone agrees.

Some think big govt is "good", for example. Others don't. Who is right?

John Henryh; 5/21/18, 7:31 AM
Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...: Anything the constrains human freedom of thought and expression in order to make it difficult for you to examine my policies or motives objectively is obviously a force for good.; 5/21/18, 7:32 AM
Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...: PC is a kind of set of blasphemy laws protecting the one true faith, which is liberalism, so if you believe in the One True Faith, then only the evil and the stupid could resent PC.; 5/21/18, 7:34 AM
Darrell said...: Fry and Peterson won hands down.; 5/21/18, 7:37 AM
PackerBronco said...: "Political Correctness: A Force for Good?"

It is. And if you disagree you will be destroyed.; 5/21/18, 7:40 AM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: Did Dyson and Goldberg show up to debate political correctness or to trash Peterson? Their post-debate interview indicates that smearing Peterson was their main concern. Is it just a coincidence that this debate was held on the same day the hit piece on Peterson appeared in the NY Times? Unfortunately, Peterson, who was clearly and understandably pissed off by Dyson's race baiting, allowed himself to be pulled off topic. Fry was the only one who stayed on topic and the moment where he called Dyson a snake oil peddler is priceless.

Dyson is a perfect illustration of the saying "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit." What a douchy windbag.; 5/21/18, 7:41 AM
PackerBronco said...: Next topic: "Blasphemy Laws: A Force for Good?"; 5/21/18, 7:41 AM
Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...: When that rodeo clown got sent for re-education for lèse-majesté for ribbing Obama, I knew our country was on the right path, the shining path, if you will.; 5/21/18, 7:42 AM
Sebastian said...: PC always meant being in sync with the Party line. It still does. Since the Party is a force for good, so is PC.

Like all ethics and linguistics, goodness is a prog tool. PC is a tool for using a tool.; 5/21/18, 7:43 AM
J. Farmer said...: @John Henry:

Unfortunately, the two arguing for the affirmative obviously came with a different agenda, which was to "take down Jordan Peterson." Dyson refers to Peterson as a "mean mad white man" on multiple occasions. During the post-debate interview, he specifically referenced Peterson in regards to "some of the abhorrent things he has said about women and other minorities." I would be willing to bet money that Dyson could not quote a single "abhorrent" thing Peterson had ever said about women or minorities. He was simply riffing off a statement Goldberg made in which she referred to a deceptive clip of a Vice interview where Peterson rhetorically floats the idea of women not wearing makeup in the workplace. The longer, unedited Vice clip makes the context clear. The edited version misconstrues. And it is not even probable Goldberg watched the entire edited version. Like her humiliating review of Vanessa Grigoriadis's Blurred Lines demonstrated, Goldberg never lets being totally ignorant of an argument stop her from condemning that argument at the top of her lungs.; 5/21/18, 7:44 AM
Ann Althouse said...: I didn't listen to the whole thing, just parts, skipping around, and focusing mostly on Peterson, who interests me in a way the others do not.

But what It think is the problem with the question (as I read it) is that it doesn't distinguish personal choice about one's own speech from social, political, and economic pressure applied to individuals. The latter is the problem. The former is part of free expression. We all make choices and nearly all of us often select "politically correct" forms of expression as part of etiquette, persuasion, kindness, etc. The problem is what we do to other people and what I call civility bullshit (which is the disguising of the real purpose of getting the other side to tone down their speech while secretly fully intending to use full force speech whenever it serves your side's interest).; 5/21/18, 7:45 AM
Sebastian said...: "Dyson, like Cornel West, is a master of grandiloquent turn of phrases that, after about three seconds' reflection, turn out to be either bland truisms or patent nonsense."

Farmer, is that you? It's so, how shall I put it, refreshing.; 5/21/18, 7:45 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Here's a debate topic: When you outgrow your clothes, buy larger clothes.; 5/21/18, 7:45 AM
JPS said...: There's a wonderful clip of Fry, some years ago, on offense.

"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more - it's simply a whine....It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that,' well, so focking whot??"

YouTube being YouTube, you get the commenters who cut loose with anti-Semitic [Fry has some Jewish ancestry I guess] or anti-gay slurs, calling him a pedophile, then asking triumphantly, How do you like that, Fry? Not offended, I guess?

Which misses the point entirely. I never thought he was telling people not to be offended by anything, just not to proclaim their offense as though that alone wins the argument. So it's good to see him still fighting the good fight.; 5/21/18, 7:46 AM
rehajm said...: The game good thing about PC is the goal post rolls on casters. If you don’t like those assholes, move the goal post.; 5/21/18, 7:48 AM
Ralph L said...: I was told there would be no homework assigned on this blog.; 5/21/18, 7:50 AM
mezzrow said...: When you outgrow your clothes, buy larger clothes.

You're a mean mad white woman.; 5/21/18, 7:58 AM
Dad29 said...: We all make choices and nearly all of us often select "politically correct" forms of expression as part of etiquette, persuasion, kindness, etc.

Those choices are not "politically correct." They are actually "polite." The "PC" term emphasizes the less important "politics."

What is more important is basic human respect.; 5/21/18, 8:02 AM
dreams said...: "Here's a debate topic: When you outgrow your clothes, buy larger clothes."

And then outgrow the larger clothes.; 5/21/18, 8:03 AM
Ralph L said...: Petersen has actually lost weight in the last few years. I'll be glad when men's fashion changes...probably to Boleros.; 5/21/18, 8:03 AM
Caldwell P. Titcomb IV said...: The video's question is too stupid to lead to an interesting discussion, but I might watch it if that Dyson was the Dyson who invented the "Dual Cyclone" bagless vacuum cleaner, which is pretty cool, but he's not; he's not even the Dyson who thunk up the "Dyson Sphere".

On the other hand, Fry is Jeeves with that spiffy accent, so I might poke around and find his parts.; 5/21/18, 8:08 AM
Henry said...: Is the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution a force for good?

That's my answer.; 5/21/18, 8:11 AM
Henry said...: Does anyone expect the Spanish Inquisition?; 5/21/18, 8:13 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Peterson looks too thin to me. He's hardly an ideal male specimen. I think it works that he seems like of rabbity and weird and fingers his wedding ring insanely, because when he ultimately gets some point out, you're wowed. He creates lowish expectations, then wallops.; 5/21/18, 8:14 AM
Ann Althouse said...: What I saw of Dyson was ridiculous. He shows up in an comically undersized suit jacket, he chastises Peterson for talking about minorities as if they are nothing more than group members, then seconds later lashes out at Peterson for his membership in the white group. Also what's up with Dyson's mannered pronunciation? Who pronounces the word "says" as if it rhymes with "days"?; 5/21/18, 8:16 AM
Ann Althouse said...: As for Fry, maybe consult some old photographs of Tom Wolfe to get some ideas about what kind of shoes to wear with a white suit.; 5/21/18, 8:18 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Okay, I have researched the question for you guys about what shoes a man should wear with a white suit. Here are the options:

1. White shoes.

2. Light brown shoes (in a sleek not clunky/heavy style).

3. 2-tone shoes where one of the colors is white.

4. Other light color such as light gray suede.; 5/21/18, 8:23 AM
Yancey Ward said...: Most people are incapable of distinguishing between politesse and politics. The term political correctness is proof of this.

I watched this the other day- only Stephen Fry really impressed me, but then he always has done so, so maybe I was biased. Dyson and Goldberg are cretins and hucksters and, in my opinion embarrassed themselves badly. Peterson, for the first time that I have seen, took bait that he should have had the good sense to not bite at, but it is hard to avoid in this format given that two of the four participants had taking him down as the their only topic of discussion.; 5/21/18, 8:26 AM
AllenS said...: Brown Shoes Don't Make It -- Frank Zappa; 5/21/18, 8:26 AM
tcrosse said...: 5. Black shoes with white gaiters, a la Wolfe.; 5/21/18, 8:30 AM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: The result of the audience vote: before: pro - 36% con - 64% after: pro - 30% con - 70%.

Remember, this debate was held in Justin Trudeau land. Toronto is no more conservative than NYC is. It takes some doing for a radical black prof and a feminist who writes for the NY Times to lose liberals, but Dyson and Goldman managed it. Good going, you two!; 5/21/18, 8:35 AM
Wince said...: White suit supremacy?; 5/21/18, 8:37 AM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: Asking the interesting questions for the sake of the preservation of decency. Light brown (tan, really) is the only answer. Anything else is gauche or spivy. Or gay, but I wasn’t going to go there.; 5/21/18, 8:37 AM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: Ann Althouse said...

Peterson looks too thin to me. He's hardly an ideal male specimen.

He has said he eats nothing but meat and poultry and greens these days. He credits the change in diet with restoring his health. Except he doesn't look healthy. (Of course, his life has been turned upside down during the past couple of years and it must be very stressful.) I'm a believer in low carb diets too, but when I look at him I think a bit of rice or pasta or bread would do him good. Cutting way down on carbs and sugar is a good way to lose weight, but he was thin to begin with.

Black shoes look good with white suits. White shoes? No, just no, unless the goal is to look like Pat Boone.; 5/21/18, 8:45 AM
Ralph L said...: Spats would be redundant.
Marines wear black shoes with white trou (but use a black coat). Navy wears all white, but only after Memorial Day.; 5/21/18, 8:47 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "5. Black shoes with white gaiters, a la Wolfe."

That's the idea in my #2 2-toned shoes.

And I wouldn't call those "gaiters." They are more the opposite of gaiters. It's possible that he's wearing black shoes with white spats. I think the accurate description is: "shoes custom-designed to appear to have white spats."; 5/21/18, 8:57 AM
FIDO said...: From what I understand, Michelle with the Glorious Orbs and Professor Plum lost that debate, with a huge 6% swing in the audience to Dr. Peterson's side.

Granted, EVEN CANADIANS know that this concept is full of shit and came out initially almost two to one against the proposition (36 to 64 or some such)

And if the Left has lost Canada!; 5/21/18, 8:58 AM
Ann Althouse said...: I think Wolfe wanted to wear white shoes (and he's often seen in white shoes), but the city is just too dirty, so he got special shoes made with a black edge around the bottom. It almost looks like the "rubbers" that men and women used to wear over their dress shoes in the rain.; 5/21/18, 8:59 AM
Ralph L said...: White shoes are like foot binding and stiletto heels--status symbols.; 5/21/18, 9:06 AM
Karen said...: Ann Althouse said...
the problem with the question (as I read it) is that it doesn't distinguish personal choice about one's own speech from social, political, and economic pressure applied to individuals. The latter is the problem. The former is part of free expression. We all make choices and nearly all of us often select "politically correct" forms of expression as part of etiquette, persuasion, kindness, etc.

Yes, we monitor our own speech to be civil and polite, kind, etc., but the goal post has moved so far in terms of what is considered to be civil discourse now that most people self-monitor constantly, even about issues that desperately need to be discussed in a forthright and truthful manner, but no one dares to say a thing for fear of being destroyed by social media and/or their social milieu. When we can’t discuss difficult topics, it makes it difficult even to think our way through them. So, the visible part of the problem is only the top of the iceberg. Peterson’s longer lectures tackle the undersea portion and we would all do well to heed the warning.; 5/21/18, 9:06 AM
GRW3 said...: It's easy to distinguish the English dialect from the American. The Canadian dialect is similar to the American but not exactly the same. Peterson is from a rural part of Canada so he has some additional input to his locution.; 5/21/18, 9:08 AM
James Pawlak said...: The following is the 2007 winning entry from an annual contest at Texas A&M University calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term. This year's term was 'Political Correctness'.

The winner wrote: "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."; 5/21/18, 9:09 AM
FIDO said...: Sigh. I decided to see how Michelle is doing. She is not doing well at all.

She's plumping up. That little hot pixie elf thing with her massive orbs, which was the highest quality she brought to any debate, as eye candy, is slipping as like 'Admiral Holdo', she ran through the Wall at lightspeed.

So now she is going to slip from the perky Feminist 'I am hot and eat your heart out because I hate men, even my husband' to post Wall Feminist bitterness 'Why isn't anyone taking me seriously anymore? And why is hubby staying up so late with his laptop? Doesn't he know how lucky he is?"

Sorry Michelle, no one outside Academia and Feminism took you seriously. You just brought an Orby goodness to a debate with usually pasty white men which increased Viewer Traffic.

But now you wear nothing low cut and you are chunking up, so expect fewer invitations.; 5/21/18, 9:10 AM
J. Farmer said...: I prefer soft brown shoes with white suits. Fry's shoes were the least of his problems. Not only was his suit wrinkled and ill-fitting, he made the rookie blunder of buttoning the bottom button. When Edward VII got too fat to fully button his suit, he began the trend of leaving the bottom unbuttoned. Fry would have done well to follow that lead.; 5/21/18, 9:16 AM
William said...: I only watched the first hour. Fry was fine, but I know him only from his acting and was expecting more. I was hoping he'd be like Oscar Wilde and say something devastating and witty, He was earnest and articulate but no Oscar Wilde......Why is it politically incorrect to criticize a woman for her weight but okay to dump on the other lard asses on the stage? Michelle has packed on a few pounds. She used to be kind of cute. A cute girl lecturing you on moralityis a force for civilization. A chubster making the same observations is a mother in law and why men head out for the territories. I offer this not as a sexist criticism of Michelle but as a disinterested analysis of the semiotics of the situation........I didn't think Dyson was particularly persuasive. Jefferson had his flaws, but so did Paul Roberson. Some day before I die I hope to sometime hear a black activist criticize Robert Mugabe, Winnie Mandela, or Biggie Smalls.; 5/21/18, 9:34 AM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: Dyson must work out a lot, or maybe he plays the didgeridoo, and practices circular breathing, because he never seems to need to take a breath, even when he actually should.; 5/21/18, 9:36 AM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: At least none of the men were wearing ankle socks which exposed a few inches of hairy leg. That's a surprisingly common fashion faux pas men make - wearing the wrong socks with suits. Buy some dress socks, for God's sake.; 5/21/18, 9:38 AM
Big Mike said...: They’d have done better to have Freeman Dyson instead of Michael Eric.; 5/21/18, 9:39 AM
Robert Cook said...: Politeness is good; political correctness is bad.; 5/21/18, 9:43 AM
Nonapod said...: I watched a tiny bit of it the other day. I should really like these sorts of debates, but for some reason I often get turned off the minute I start watching. I just assume that the people who are arguing for politcal correctness won't be arguing in Good Faith™ so that even someone as charming as Stephen Fry can't save it from becoming a mean spirited hectoring. Besides, to me, arguing for limiting free speech is akin to arguing for more cancer in children.; 5/21/18, 9:47 AM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: "Yes, we monitor our own speech to be civil and polite, kind, etc..."

We monitor our OWN speech for those reasons. Political correctness is about our betters monitoring our speech. It's a rejection of the notion of politeness.; 5/21/18, 9:50 AM
Rick.T. said...: The proper name for two-toned shoes is the 'spectator" which is different than a saddle shoe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectator_shoe

There's an interesting concept coined by Stephen Pinker for this trend of political correctness which he calls the "euphemism treadmill."

"Stephen Pinker in his 2003 book “The Blank Slate” coined the name euphemism treadmill for the process whereby words introduced to replace an offensive word, over time become offensive themselves. A current example of this is mental retardation."

http://englishcowpath.blogspot.com/2011/06/euphemism-treadmill-replacing-r-word.html?_sm_au_=iVVJQrNZMLRr6K5R; 5/21/18, 9:53 AM
traditionalguy said...: Peterson wants to move on to better ideas that may be able to express a commom narrative.Fry wants a collegial atmosphere to discuss whatever he wants to discuss.

The Dyson and Goldberg duo wanted to be a Harlem Globe Trotters exhibition against a losing team, or a Roman Coleseum Gladiator Show with them slaughtering the weak white folks. They had no ideas except WE WIN.; 5/21/18, 9:57 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: "Okay, I have researched the question for you guys about what shoes a man should wear with a white suit. Here are the options:

1. White shoes.

2. Light brown shoes (in a sleek not clunky/heavy style).

3. 2-tone shoes where one of the colors is white.

4. Other light color such as light gray suede."

Found my white suit last year when I was consolidating my wardrobe. Took a year or two to find the white shoes before I would wear it in public. Found a pair of black and white saddle shoes first, and was tempted, but not quite right. Would wear it out on Friday nights in Scottsdale when I lived by there. And it did work - the women there on Fridays really dressed up, and most of the men did not, more often wearing shorts and t-shirts than suits. So I stuck out, in a good way. That phase ended almost 20 years ago, when I met my partner. Haven't worn it since then, and probably never will. For the rest of the year, Labor Day through Memorial Day, I had a black suit. Much easier to pull together - everything black, except a white shirt. After my clubbing days, I was able to repurpose it for funerals, so do wear it on occasion.; 5/21/18, 9:59 AM
FIDO said...: Lefties do not argue in good faith. Well, rarely. Dershowitz. Farmer seems to have some class and consistency.

Most of them it is bald partisan power grab.; 5/21/18, 10:07 AM
Rick said...: Political correctness is best understood as a code granting certain rights denied those in the outgroup. Some will say this is virtue signalling (and it is), but it's also something more. Those not speaking the code are judged by the worst possible interpretation of their comments which inevitably means racist/sexist/homophobic since essentially any position could theoretically have such motivation and distinguishment from other motivations isn't necessary in this framework. Those who speak the code are granted leeway to express themselves others are denied. Naturally those who benefit from irrationally delegitimizing their opponents without addressing their ideas love political correctness.; 5/21/18, 10:10 AM
FIDO said...: Oops. It seems that Michelle Goldberg is an Althouse Favorite, having had several blogginghead debates with her.

Granted it was on Skype or some other platform.

So it isn't always pasty white men Michelle pairs off with.; 5/21/18, 10:10 AM
Gahrie said...: Colored people = racist (Watch out NAACP!)

People of color = woke

Discuss.; 5/21/18, 10:14 AM
FIDO said...: I don't talk about Pigmented People of Progressivism.; 5/21/18, 10:17 AM
buwaya said...: The Spanish Inquisition was entirely predictable and orderly, as things went in those days. People certainly did expect it. It was a model of due process for its time, and long after too.

People object to its purpose, but are very confused about its application.; 5/21/18, 10:23 AM
James Graham said...: I use my computer to read not to watch anything.

I have a television set for that.

Writing is slow and reading is fast so I get the participants' self-edited words and I get them quickly.; 5/21/18, 10:25 AM
Sheridan said...: In the mid 1990's, in a large, "diversifying" electric utility company in SoCal, all employees were mandated to attend HR training classes that emphasized tolerance, respect and consideration differences in culture, sexuality, etc. Everyone had to participate and at the end of the classes everyone had to publically state what they'd learned and how that learning had made them more able to empathize with people of "diversity". When it was my turn to publically declare my "learnings" I said the class had failed to inform me about basic, acceptable workplace terminology - terminology that seemed like a lightning-rod for argument. The instructor looked at me quizzically. So I said "Black or African-American?" "Latino or Hispanic?" My instructor had no answer for me. HR never got back to me. Political correctness run rampant. That's my takeaway. PC makes people mumble, afraid to say anything insulting. Of course who knows what's insulting?!; 5/21/18, 10:28 AM
n.n said...: Gray hole is physically and politically correct. Black hole is a money pit.; 5/21/18, 10:31 AM
Hey Skipper said...: [Althouse:] We all make choices and nearly all of us often select "politically correct" forms of expression as part of etiquette, persuasion, kindness, etc.

True, but not the point.

Political Correctness, in its toxic form, is the imposition by one group -- for a long time, exclusively progressives -- of their shibboleths upon everyone else. And to disagree with these shibboleths is to guarantee first demonization, then ostracism.

James Damore is the perfect example: He contradicted a progressive shibboleth -- evolution stopped at the neckline -- and was immediately swamped by a mob who were intent on his head irrespective of the factual basis of what he said.

That is why PC is completely toxic. It is a demand by one group that the rest of us kowtow to their ideological decisions of what constitutes Truth.

Why the debate didn't frame the question that way, or either Peterson or Fry make that point themselves, is, to me, an abiding mystery.

After all, it isn't as if recent history is devoid of such examples.; 5/21/18, 10:41 AM
Robert Cook said...: "Lefties do not argue in good faith. Well, rarely. Dershowitz. Farmer seems to have some class and consistency."

Neither Dershowitz or Farmer are lefties.; 5/21/18, 11:01 AM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: BTW, the weird rumbling noises Dyson made when Peterson was speaking reminded me of something, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Then it hit me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWYY7Rgln_4; 5/21/18, 11:02 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Shut up all white men and those not on the leftwing plantation. You cannot speak your mind and if you do, we will call you a hater.; 5/21/18, 11:04 AM
Hey Skipper said...: BTW, the weird rumbling noises Dyson made ...

Never mind the weird, continual, bobbing back and forth.; 5/21/18, 11:04 AM
Robert Cook said...: Farmer is the best commenter here, by far.; 5/21/18, 11:05 AM
FIDO said...: Dershowitz and Farmer WERE both Lefties...until the rest of you decided to pull up stakes and move to Hawaii, leaving a lot of your allies behind and now excoriated or denied.

It says more about the hard core Lefties of today than Dersh, Althouse or Farmer. They are modern day Jacobins... and their days are numbered.; 5/21/18, 11:22 AM
FIDO said...: Oops. Sorry. YOU, Robert, are the Jacobin. Poor Dersch, Althouse and Farmer are Girondins.

Republicans keep needing to resew this tent larger and larger as your side makes enemies of allies.; 5/21/18, 11:24 AM
Quaestor said...: Other light color such as light gray suede.

Thanks, Althouse. You've solved a problem.

Some weeks back in a paroxysm of temporary insanity I bought a pair of gray suede Chelsea boots without a stitch of clothing in mind. I tried the boots with jeans and both looked ridiculous together. With your advice in hand, I'm shopping for a Wolfian white suit. Thankfully the weather is suitable, ha!

You can be Jeeves to my Wooster. You've made a start already, I haven't worn shorts off the premises in two years.; 5/21/18, 11:31 AM
Quaestor said...: They are modern day Jacobins... and their days are numbered.

The weather is getting warmer, isn't?; 5/21/18, 11:33 AM
Quaestor said...: Jeez, Dyson is such an unconvincing airbag.

What's incredible is the mismatch of intellect on display. It wasn't even sporting, as if a prep school intramural team went up against the Patriots. One would think the SJWs could field a better team, at least one with a bit of bite.; 5/21/18, 11:41 AM
A said...: From the 90's -- A Firing Line Debate: Resolved: That Political Correctness Is a Menace and a Bore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkJ2NvuQ0ko&t=1482s; 5/21/18, 11:49 AM
Howard said...: Listened to it while doing chores on Saturday. Very disappointed from all sides. Peterson has over-exposed himself and is suffering from chronic fatigue from all the travel and events: needs to do more by doing less.; 5/21/18, 11:53 AM
mikee said...: Leftists have NEVER been able to defend their programs, their political actions, their policies, their ideology against the least amount of rational, fact-based opposition. Progressivism is a religious belief, a faith in the unbelievable, an acceptance of axioms disproven by history every time they are applied, and a reach for conclusions not supported by any real world examples. To hell with it, and to hell with them.; 5/21/18, 11:53 AM
Caldwell P. Titcomb IV said...: Hey Skipper said...
"BTW, the weird rumbling noises Dyson made ..."
Never mind the weird, continual, bobbing back and forth.

He was shuckin' AND jivin' - at the same time!; 5/21/18, 11:54 AM
Howard said...: The only white suit I ever wear is Tyvek with lime boot covers.; 5/21/18, 11:59 AM
Ralph L said...: That's called a house dress.; 5/21/18, 12:12 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: I really liked the forum and am a sucker for a good civilized debate.

While giving her credit for participating and for her civility, I would gently say that Michelle Goldberg is not very intellectually persuasive.

She tried to distance herself from the excesses of the SJW movement who use political correctness as a blunt instrument to stifle debate. But it doesn't work.

The essence of political correctness is to rig the game by disqualify your opponents.; 5/21/18, 12:33 PM
bagoh20 said...: "Politically correct" seems to accept that it may be bullshit, so that modifier kind of answers the question, unless you think that things that are not necessarily correct should be enforced anyway.; 5/21/18, 12:50 PM
bagoh20 said...: A similar question should bring the same arguments:

Indoctrination: a force for good?; 5/21/18, 12:52 PM
NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...: Hey Skipper said...

Never mind the weird, continual, bobbing back and forth.

High functioning autistics do that whey they get stressed. Also noticed that Dyson keeps his eyes shut tight when he speaks, that can be another autistic trait along with with rumbling/growling. It would help explain some of his shitty arguments, high functioning autistics like things to be A = 100% true, B = 100% false. They get uncomfortable when A is generally true, but becomes false when looked at from a different angle.; 5/21/18, 12:52 PM
Gahrie said...: One would think the SJWs could field a better team, at least one with a bit of bite.

The whole reason the Left's only response to opposition is "shut up" is because they are unable to defend their ideas and policies intellectually.; 5/21/18, 12:52 PM
Gahrie said...: Neither Dershowitz or Farmer are lefties.

By any standard Dershowitz is left of center. Farmer is far right ... like Pat Buchanan, isolationist right.; 5/21/18, 12:58 PM
Howard said...: all four debaters self proclaimed lefties; 5/21/18, 1:02 PM
Howard said...: Robert Cook falling into No True Scotsman black whole; 5/21/18, 1:03 PM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: Howard said...

all four debaters self proclaimed lefties

5/21/18, 1:02 PM

Where does Peterson say he is a lefty? I've watched many of his lectures and read his new book. My impression of him is that he's pretty centrist.

However, whatever Fry and Peterson say they are doesn't matter in the slightest to Dyson and Goldman. They don't get to define themselves. The radicals lump the heretics in with conservatives and lump conservatives like Ben Shapiro in with the likes of Richard Spencer. Questioning the use of pronouns like "xer" and "ze" is enough to get you labeled as a hater who wants transgenders dead.

As ace at the ace of spades blog points out, the left is diligently pushing more and more people into the opposition camp and thinning its' own ranks. As a conservative, I applaud that strategy and urge them to keep it up.; 5/21/18, 1:20 PM
Quaestor said...: Rober Cook wrote: Farmer is the best commenter here, by far.

From Cook's vantage point foreshortening is an acute problem.; 5/21/18, 2:23 PM
Michael said...: Quaestor

Check out Perlis in New Orleans. White suits galore.; 5/21/18, 2:29 PM
Known Unknown said...: People who edit YouTube videos need to get their shit together. 3:51 elapse before we are even to the intro to the debate.; 5/21/18, 2:49 PM
Howard said...: Wednesday: Peterson calls himself a classic British Liberal; 5/21/18, 3:23 PM
Fabi said...: "Politeness is good; political correctness is bad."

I love it when I agree with Cookie!; 5/21/18, 3:44 PM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: Howard, classic British Liberalism does not mean what you seem to think it means. It has nothing to do with illiberal American liberalism and statism as presently constituted.

The Australians still use the word "liberal" in the classic British sense:

"The Liberal Party of Australia is a major centre-right political party in Australia, one of the two major parties in Australian politics, along with the centre-left Australian Labor Party."; 5/21/18, 3:59 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: I'm surprised it took you this long to find it. Dyson was a disgrace.; 5/21/18, 5:55 PM
FIDO said...: Farmer mirrors some of Cookie's arguments and gives them a heft that Cookie cannot bring to the table because he is a Socialist Running Dog with some crazy theories. So since Farmer is useful to him and gives him a respectability he certainly can't earn himself, of course Cookie embraces Farmer.

Farmer also mirrors some of my arguments as well, and seems, unlike Cookie, slightly more sensible and consistent, so him I can work with. Cookie...not so much.

Now, if Cookie ever found Farmer suddenly defending Trump, one wonders how long it will take for Stalin to denounce Trotsky.

Farmer, in that case, don't go to Mexico!; 5/21/18, 6:10 PM
mikee said...: "Politically correct" is defined as "being wrong."
This isn't a Futurama bureaucrat episode, where "Technically correct" is "the best kind of correct."
This is an example of leftists distorting the meaning of words and attempting to force everyone to agree with their malapropisms of language and belief.; 5/21/18, 7:29 PM
J. Farmer said...: I thought Steve Sailer's definition was concise: "Political correctness is a war on noticing."

@FIDO:

For the record, but not that it much matters, I have never considered myself on the left, let alone a leftist. The first vote I ever cast was in 2000 for Pat Buchanan. The term that would probably most broadly capture my ideology is "paleocon" or "old right."; 5/21/18, 8:48 PM
LA_Bob said...: Fascinating debate, and I think the comments on this thread are excellent. But, as Fry said, the debaters didn't talk much about "political correctness".

I think Peterson got off on the wrong foot. Instead of skewering political correctness out of the gate, he started with an attack on the "radical left", his favorite Black Hat. PC is so easy to skewer, too. It's one thing to say, No more [insert ethnic group] jokes in public (or perhaps, period). It's an entirely different matter to shut down discussion of differences between males and females or blacks and whites and Asians because someone might be "offended". This has been one of Peterson's strongest lines of attack on the radical left, and he didn't pursue it in the debate.

I completely agree with Dad29 when he says, "What is more important is basic human respect."

I agree with Althouse Peterson looks overly thin. Contrary to exiledonmainstreet, I would not suggest he add rice or pasta or bread (he may not tolerate those foods well). I'd suggest he consider cream, butter, cheese, and / or very dark chocolate. Add some fat, man! If he has trouble with those items, add some fattier meat, like bacon and salami instead. Of course, I don't really know what all he eats and what all he can tolerate.

Dyson increasingly struck me as an "angry black man". I regret he gets hate mail, which is revolting. But, underneath his humor and "come-let-us-reason-together" demeanor, I sense this attitude toward whites: "No matter how educated, articulate, and accomplished I might be, you will never think of me as anything but a nigger". No question some people will hold this view. But, most people won't, and it should not be his default reaction to white people. In fact, as Althouse points out, he becomes guilty of the very sin of which he accuses whites.

Made for interesting viewing though. There are far worse ways to kill two hours.; 5/21/18, 11:51 PM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...: What I got out the debate was this:

On the left, whatever advances the revolution is good. What stands in its way is evil. It isn't possible to have an opponent who isn't evil.

The whole intimidation act by Dyson was something I've seen many times. If someone is MORE EMOTIONAL, they must be right. Simply not folding against people like that is enough to win.

The left focused on Petersen almost exclusively. They left Fry alone, wisely.; 5/22/18, 3:28 AM
Robert Cook said...: "Now, if Cookie ever found Farmer suddenly defending Trump, one wonders how long it will take for Stalin to denounce Trotsky."

Farmer has stated he voted for Trump. This does not make me deplore or repudiate him. His comments here are invariably well-informed and reasoned. He discusses the world as it actually is, and not through the scrim of ideological presumptions. This alone sets him apart from nearly all commenters here. What's not to like?; 5/22/18, 7:33 AM
Thorby said...: Michael Eric Dyson overtly presents himself as constrained by his group of choice, which is his race, and by his memories of being a colored person in the 60's. In the debate, all of his points were presented through the prism of race and his memories of a time when discrimination against colored people, as defined by the 'one drop rule', meant that if he traveled to the south he would be treated completely differently than if he were perceived to be 'white'. He has also made his race a central part of his career, and thus has many years experience of applying the prism of race to discussions.
The point of his comment to Peterson that he was an angry white man achieved its intended effect. It forced Peterson to similarly view the world from the prism of race, and from the current prejudicial view of 'white' as undeserving due to white privilege. That is, Dyson forced Peterson to have the same view of the world as Dyson has. It was remarkably effective, it visibly angered Peterson in a way that other comments have not.
This comment was also effective in further capturing the debate and changing the focus from political correctness to race, which is Dyson's bread and butter.
If there was someone at fault here, it was the debate organizers and the moderator. If you hire a man who is known to only bring a hammer to the job, don't be surprised if he spends his time treating everything as a nail. The moderator could have directed the debate back to the topic in question, but clearly chose not to.; 5/22/18, 11:41 AM
Matt said...: And everyone left happy, if not a bit more stupid, for having had to listen to Michael Eric 'One Trick Pony' Dyson.; 5/22/18, 4:14 PM
Unknown said...: The correct response from Peterson after being insulted by Dyson would have been to point out that Dyson was a fat black blowhard. Per Alinsky's rules you have to hit back twice as hard.; 5/22/18, 6:43 PM