Click to enlarge. That is a painting by a follower of Hieronymus Bosch from c1575, which I found — at the Wikipedia article "Harrowing of Hell"— because the Pope's statement that there is no Hell had me wondering about all the times Christians reciting the Apostles' Creed have said Jesus "descended into Hell":
In Christian theology, the Harrowing of Hell (Latin: Descensus Christi ad Inferos, "the descent of Christ into hell") is the triumphant descent of Christ into Hell (or Hades) between the time of his Crucifixion and his Resurrection when he brought salvation to all of the righteous who had died since the beginning of the world. After his death, the soul of Jesus was supposed to have descended into the realm of the dead, which the Apostles' Creed calls "hell" in the old English usage. The realm into which Jesus descended is called Sheol or Limbo by some Christian theologians to distinguish it from the hell of the damned.You see Christ opening the gate in the upper left quadrant of the painting.
The Harrowing of Hell is referred to in the Apostles' Creed and the Athanasian Creed (Quicumque vult) which state that Jesus Christ "descended into Hell". Christ having descended to the underworld is alluded to in the New Testament in 1 Peter 3:19–20, which speaks of Jesus preaching to "the imprisoned spirits". (The Catholic Catechism interprets Ephesians 4:9, which states that "[Christ] descended into the lower parts of the earth", as also supporting this interpretation.)...
In Classical mythology Hades is the underworld inhabited by departed souls and the god Pluto is its ruler. The New Testament uses the term "Hades" to refer to the abode or state of the dead. In some places it seems to represent a neutral place where the dead awaited the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Several passages from the New Testament have been taken by some... to imply that Christ descended into this realm of the dead to bring the righteous ones to Heaven. Other New Testament passages imply it is a place of torment for the unrighteous, leading to speculation that it may be divided into two very different sections....
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "By the expression 'He descended into Hell', the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil 'who has the power of death' (Hebrews 2:14). In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened Heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him."
As the Catechism says, the word "Hell"—from the Norse, Hel; in Latin, infernus, infernum, inferi; in Greek, ᾍδης (Hades); in Hebrew, שאול (Sheol)—is used in Scripture and the Apostles' Creed to refer to the abode of all the dead, whether righteous or evil, unless or until they are admitted to Heaven (CCC 633). This abode of the dead is the "Hell" into which the Creed says Christ descended. His death freed from exclusion from Heaven the just who had gone before him: "It is precisely these holy souls who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into Hell", the Catechism states (CCC 633), echoing the words of the Roman Catechism, 1,6,3. His death was of no avail to the damned.
Conceptualization of the abode of the dead as a place, though possible and customary, is not obligatory (Church documents, such as catechisms, speak of a "state or place"). Some maintain that Christ did not go to the place of the damned, which is what is generally understood today by the word "Hell"....
While some maintain that Christ merely descended into the "limbo of the fathers", others, notably theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar (inspired by the visions of Adrienne von Speyr), maintain that it was more than this and that the descent involved suffering by Jesus. Some maintain that this is a matter on which differences and theological speculation are permissible without transgressing the limits of orthodoxy....
Martin Luther, in a sermon delivered in Torgau in 1533, stated that Christ descended into Hell. The Formula of Concord (a Lutheran confession) states, "we believe simply that the entire person, God and human being, descended to Hell after his burial, conquered the devil, destroyed the power of Hell, and took from the devil all his power." (Solid Declaration, Art. IX)...
John Calvin expressed his concern that many Christians "have never earnestly considered what it is or means that we have been redeemed from God's judgment. Yet this is our wisdom: duly to feel how much our salvation cost the Son of God." Calvin's conclusion is that "Christ's descent into Hell was necessary for Christians' atonement, because Christ did in fact endure the penalty for the sins of the redeemed."...
A number of Christians reject the doctrine of the "harrowing of hell", claiming that "there is scant scriptural evidence for [it], and that Jesus's own words contradict it"...
Augustine (354–430) argued that 1 Peter 3:19–20, the chief passage used to support the doctrine of the "harrowing of hell", is "more allegory than history"....
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118 comments:
The Vatican says the interviewer misrepresented the statements.
The interviewer is an atheist. Also known for not keeping accurate notes.
It's pretty clear that the Pope's wafer has slipped off its paten.
"...the Pope's statement that there is no Hell..."
That has been denied by the Vatican as wwww noted.
"If there is no Hell, what is happening here?"
A Stanley Kubrick movie?
From what I read of the Pope's statement, he asserts that hell is not a place of eternal punishment but that those sent below are exterminated completely and no longer exist in any form. Some evangelicals believe that the eternal fire burns up the damned and there is no more suffering, (which sounds similar to the Pope's assertion to me). The traditional evangelical view is that the damned are in an eternal flame eternally.
In any case, the Pope was not speaking Ex Cathedra, so he was just fucking with us.
“...because the Pope's statement that there is no Hell had me wondering...
Fake news, as has been mentioned, but interesting how many Christians Protestants and even Catholics are ready to send il Papa straight to hell.
The Vatican's denial had a whiff of non-denial about it. But if the pope did indeed say there is no hell, that's a big deal for the Catholic Canon and it's impossible to believe he could have said it without realizing how it would be received.
OT, but as long as it's Holy Week and we're talking hell and Jesus and art and stuff - I was recently re-watching Lech Majewski's beautiful The Mill and the Cross. Recommended, especially if you love Bruegel, as I do.
Easter Week has a little told story of its own. It took place between Jesus's taking massive bloody suffering, humiliation, loss of everything, total rejection by his Father, the severe punishment for all Sin and then becoming a curse on the cross, followed by death. Calling that day, Good Friday must be from a celebration by Satan.
But Jesus's offering Himself to go through that as a sinless substitute set up the Ruler of Satan's Kingdom for total, eternal, irrevocable defeat. After death, Jesus descended to Hell to announce that he had taken the prisoner's guilt and shame, and that he had the Keys to the Kingdom of Satan and had freed the prisoners from Hell based on His sacrifice in their place.
Suddenly Satan had to face losing his authority. His only trick had been the argument that God would have to destroy the other sinning rebels he loved if God destroyed Satan for his rebellion.That was because God requires Justice. The prisoners in Hell for sin were Satan's hostages.
Suddenly the hostages' ransome had been fully paid. And everybody in Hell laughed at powerless Satan, and then joyfully arose on Sunday morning Justified as if they had never sinned. That is why Christianity is called The Good News.
Inga: Fake news, as has been mentioned, but interesting how many Christians Protestants and even Catholics are ready to send il Papa straight to hell.
Well, he wouldn't be the first Pope to make it. At least by Mr. Alighieri's lights.
"but interesting how many Christians Protestants and even Catholics are ready to send il Papa straight to hell."
This is well within Christian tradition.
Very popular motif going back to the middle ages, to show Popes and Cardinals in hell.
And in Dante of course -
Inferno, Canto XIX, not a good translation, with reference to Pope Nicholas V, but in a field of similarly punished Popes in the eighth circle -
"Your avarice
O’ercasts the world with mourning, under foot
Treading the good, and raising bad men up.
Of shepherds like to you, the Evangelist
Was ware, when her, who sits upon the waves,
With kings in filthy whoredom he beheld;
She who with seven heads tower’d at her birth,
And from ten horns her proof of glory drew,
Long as her spouse in virtue took delight.
Of gold and silver ye have made your god,
Differing wherein from the idolater,
But that he worships one, a hundred ye?
The same sorts of complaint can be made today, or recently, the Vatican being much concerned with its finances, and financial scandals and maneuvers around them are always going on.
Trad guy, well said.
Hmmmm, growing up in the fundamentalist Christian tradition, I recall hearing that the Catholic church was the Whore of Babylon. Of course now that I’m a Presbyterian, I recognize the misteaching that fundamentalism so often engages in.
I sure hope that painting is not a phenomenal archetype which manifests itself as an image.
Funny how it looks Bosch, but slightly off, though maybe it wouldn't look "off" if one thought it really was Bosch, like how stereos and wine sound and taste better if they look expensive.
Pope, Cardinal in hell
A Pope, a Cardinal (in the broad hat), a monk, etc. in hell, a miniature from the Vatican Library
On the day on which we remember the day when the gift of your salvation was paid, if you wish to accept the gift, you're better off taking your spiritual advice from the Good Book itself rather than from a man who daily demonstrates his lack of an understanding of Christianity.
Here is part an Anglo-Saxon poem from the Exeter Book that confirms the Medieval belief in the Harrowing of Hell.
Christ is portrayed somewhat like a Germanic warrior akin to Beowulf. Notice the sense of adventure and heroic
effort in the poem. The comment function won't accept the entire poem; so this is about half of it.
The Descent into Hell
They began in the dawning, the high-born tribe,
to prepare him as a youth—they knew the assembly of men
had covered the nobleman’s body within an earth-hall. (1-3)
The weary women wished to bemoan in weeping
the death of their lord for one moment,
bewailing him mournfully. His resting-place was cooling,
painful was his proceeding—the heroes were headstrong,
those who were found blithe-minded among the boulders. (4-8)
Mary the mourning came in the dawn’s crashing,
the earls’ daughter called them with the others.
Two sorrowing ladies sought the Victory-Child of God
alone in the earth-hall where they knew earlier
that the heroes of Judea had hidden him,
believing that he must wait in that grave,
alone all that Easter night. Indeed those women
knew of this other matter, the ones who turned onto the road! (9-16)
Yet there came in the dawning a single company of angels,
surrounding the joy of the many, the city of the Savior.
Open was the earth-hall, the body of the nobleman
seized the spirit of life, the earth quaking,
laughing dwellers of hell—that bachelor awakened,
proud from the dirt, mighty majesty arising
victory-fast and wise. Saint John said that
the hero spoke laughing unto the devils of hell,
mindful to the many about his kinsfolk’s…
“Our savior has said to me, the one who wished
to send me on this adventure,
so that he sought me… six months,
the start of all folk. Now… shaken.
I believe adamantly and am certain…
… by daylight, the lord wishes
… to seek, the Victory-Child of God.” (17-32)
Then the Master of Mankind hurried to the journey—
the Helmet of Heaven wished to break down
and humiliate the hell-walls, to hurl down
the majesty of that capital, cruelest of all kings. (33-6)
Nor did he care about the warfaring of the helm-bearers,
nor he wish to lead byrnie-fighters unto those city-gates,
yet the locks fell down, the chains from the castrum—
the king rode onwards, the Leader of All Peoples
rushed forth, the Glorious Grace of Armies. (37-42a)
The exiled wretches thronged, every one of them
who were allowed to see that Victory-Child,
Adam and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,
many mindful earls, Moses and David,
Isaiah and Zacharias—
many of the high-fathers, likewise an assembly of heroes,
an army of wise men, a company of women,
many many virgins, an uncountable people. (42b-9)
Then John saw the Victory-Child of God
coming to hell amid that high-born host,
perceiving then the miserable mission of God himself.
He saw the doors of hell shining brightly,
locked long before—
shrouded in shadows—
that thane was joyful. (50-5)
Then the bold beginning of the burg-dwellers called out,
mindful before the multitude, and he spoke
to his kinsfolk, greeting him with words of welcome: (56-8)
“Thanks be yours, Prince of ours,
for wishing to seek us out…
Now we [must] abide bound in bonds
when the many were tied brother-less,
outcasts … —he was widely stained—
He will never be wrapped up so closely
so bitterly under malicious closure,
within these killing chains,
so that he could not keep his courage so easily.
Then he trusts the kindness of his lord
so that he wishes to be redeemed from these bonds. (59-68)
“And so we all believe in you alone
my dear lord. I have suffered many things
since you have wandered to your end in me,
when you gave to me sword and byrnie,
helmet and war-tackle—I always held them yet—
and you revealed to me, Joy of Kingly Hosts,
that you were the bearer of my defense.” (69-75)
Angle-Dyne, Angelic Buzzard said...
The Mill and the Cross.
I always liked Bruegel and medieval stuff, anyway Netflix says:
Titles Related to: The Mill and the Cross
My Little Pony something
Moana
Mulan
My Little Pony something else 2,3,4,5
The 10th "related to" is the first non-cartoon, "Malcriado$".
Angle-Dyne, Angelic Buzzard said...
OT, but as long as it's Holy Week and we're talking hell and Jesus and art and stuff - I was recently re-watching Lech Majewski's beautiful The Mill and the Cross. Recommended, especially if you love Bruegel, as I do.
3/30/18, 6:04 PM
Angel-Dyne, thank you very much for that link. I had never even heard of that film. The trailer is stunning and I will definitely watch it this weekend. I too love Bruegel.
wwww - ah
The media ruins it with lies once again.
“I always liked Bruegel and medieval stuff, anyway Netflix says:
Titles Related to: The Mill and the Cross
My Little Pony something
Moana
Mulan
My Little Pony something else 2,3,4,5
The 10th "related to" is the first non-cartoon, "Malcriado$".
The full movie is available on YouTube.
It is finished.
It's a lot easier to believe in hell than in heaven. At least for me, ever since a child.
Hell is for children, like the Hoggmeister.
I am partial to von Balthasar's view (alluded to above). In his descent to the dead on Holy Saturday, Christ experienced the full depth of abandonment by God. This makes Christ the Savior of all who feel as though God has abandoned them.
Damn. Dante put in all that work on the Inferno for nothing!
Use the Amazon portal to view Titus Welliver as Harry Bosch. Season 4 drops on April 23, 2018.
Just call me Shameless!!
A number of Christians reject the doctrine of the "harrowing of hell", claiming that "there is scant scriptural evidence for [it], and that Jesus's own words contradict it"...
A woman at a Bible study I attended made the comment, "I refuse to believe that a loving God would consign anyone to hell for all eternity". Of course, most of us would rather NOT believe in hell but, then, that would mean contradicting God and He is God and we didn't make the rules.
Even so, He IS a loving God who sent his Son as a way out of the eternal Lake of Fire. We can accept or reject Him.
God bless us, everyone.
There were three Hells in the Old Testament, all generally translated as "Hell".
There was Sheol, which is basically the grave (sometimes associated with the pagan Greek Hades), Gehenna, the lake of fire where the damned are punished, and Tartarus, the underworld, also Greek.
Then there is Paradise, which I thought was supposed to be Heaven, or the Garden of Eden, but turns out it's actually the gentrified part of Hell, at least it was until it got rezoned. That's where Jesus went slumming Friday night through Sunday morning, and no doubt the demons were not happy to see him.
This doesn't take into account all the different levels of Hell, Lenny's Inferno, purgatory, and limbo (how low can you go?). Outer Darkness,and Other People.
I rather like Bosch's depictions of Hell, and Bruegel's. They make Dutch Hell look almost like a treat!
The Pope musta got mixed up by all the different kinds of Hell.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned
Party like it's 1599!
When Wycliff, Luther and Calvin and Knox rediscoverd Paul's doctrine of total Justification by the factual events of the death, burial and ressurection of the Jewish Messiah;and they translated and printed Paul's doctrine, it created war of extermination ordered by the Catholic Pope who sent Jesuits and armies of Catholic Kings to kill and steal every Protestant people they found. That was the same way the Catholics did treated Jews for 1500 years.
This is probably because the Pope guys wanted to keep their lucrative monetized payment requirement to atone for guilt and shame. And the naive Protestants guys were working at exposing the Papacy's requirment of new atonements every day sold for cash from a monopoly source, as simply a con game.
That is what lead to their calling the Pope an Anti-Christ. Which was only half true. And the day the Protestants ( called thatname because they protested being exterminated) got their own guns and fought the killers back, then all became peaceful in Christendom again.
If, ex cathedra, the Pope proclaims that the Pope is not infallible, does faith require a good Catholic to believe him.
The Pope smokes dope.
I don't know how to make sense of the Bible. It does not appear to me as one thing. I see a multitude of texts written by different authors with different intents. In many, even most cases, I have no confidence I even know what a given passage means. Instead I see multiple interpretations, or many possible interpretations, everywhere I look.
I do not think in most cases that the Bible was meant to be read literally. Again and again, I feel like the author of a passage is trying to communicate something they do not know how to say directly. And the reason they cannot say it directly is that the idea is not already in the reader's head. Normally that is what speech is, you are evoking, or calling on, ideas and thoughts that already are or are close to already in the mind of the person listening to you.
But so much of the Bible seems to be written in a kind of code built out of metaphors. If it's not nonsense, then it's apparent it would take a great effort to correctly decode it, including that it's just possible that you cannot read it correctly if you haven't had the right background.
If I tried I could make a thousand stories about what the Bible meant, and yet have no confidence that any of them were true. Or rather I would probably assign more significance to some of my stories than others, but the root of that assignment would be my intuition, my guesses about the universe, rather than any analysis of the text.
And although I have made no study of it, it does seem to me that in fact there is a great variation in the meanings that Christians extract from the Bible.
This includes the concept of hell, which I would guess is not meant to be a literal place, but rather a state or quality that people can experience or arrive at.
Borges has a story where a theologian's study of the Bible leads him to believe that Judas was the Messiah. Judas died alone and in disgrace with his name accursed by all future generations. Who made the greater and more perfect sacrifice of his life: Jesus on his cross or Judas hanging from the tree?.......The Popes have frequently been greedy and avaricious, but it must be remembered that the Princes who supported Luther were far more interested with confiscating Church property than in becoming better Christians.......Henry VIII was a serial murderer. Those Anglicans who look down on Joseph Smith, Mohammed, and the various Borgia Popes should look to the founder of their faith for humility and guidance on their path to righteousness.
Hell is the place where when you go there they have to take you in,
Hell No! We won't go!
Mandrewa,
This is exactly why you would benefit from a decent course in Christian Theology. The best in my case was in my senior year in High School under our estimable Brother Victor. Every Catholic school needs a Brother Victor, but they are few. Search, and if you have a Catholic college nearby, you may find. Often enough these classes/seminars are open to the public.
As for you Protestants, I have no idea.
Bergoglio is a heretic
buwaya, We're not so bad.
(At least we Lutherans aren't as bad as those damned Presbyterians)
/s
Pope Francis is close friends with Scalfari. And so he let this get published. For sure the pope said, "No one will be condemned forever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel." From Amoris Laetita, April 8, 2016. An official statement from him. Though, as to souls disappearing that has no logic because the soul is there at birth, or before.
Let alone Anglicans!
no /s
That has been denied by the Vatican
Kind of.
There is a Hell. It's just not a physical place within the universe. Like Heaven it is exists outside of the physical world.
Renee said...
There is a Hell. It's just not a physical place within the universe. Like Heaven it is exists outside of the physical world.
****************
Well, we're glad you cleared *that* up for us!
mandrewa, if you're really curious, here's a couple of books that might be helpful:
Scripture and the Authority of God by NT Wright
Scripture and Its Interpretation: A Global, Ecumenical Introduction to the Bible edited by Michael Gorman.
@mandrewa: What you say and what you ask are the right questions. I felt much the same way for most of my adult life. In my 50's I began to find answers that satisfy me through an adult religious education program called Education for Ministry, developed by the School of Theology at the University of the South, an Episcopal institution. That may not be the right way for you (and I think the Education for Ministry program took a wrong turning a few years ago). Maybe Buwaya's recommendation would work for you. I don't know. Read scripture thoughtfully but not slavishly. Read and read about Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Read C.S. Lewis, starting with what are supposed to be children's books, the seven "Narnia" novels -- which aren't only for children -- and almost anything else by Lewis that appeals to you. If your faith wants intellectual fertilization, read N.T. Wright, an Anglican clergyman and academic, but not until and unless you're ready for a challenge.
God speed on your journey!
WWW.... the interviewer's paper is Communist to boot.
But this is the fourth time they have 'misinterpreted' his statements.
The Pope needs to have enough sense to stay the 'hell' away from these people (but apparently he doesn't!)
”I don't know how to make sense of the Bible. It does not appear to me as one thing. I see a multitude of texts written by different authors with different intents.”
Yes, exactly.
Thick as a brick.
Blogger Inga said...Hmmmm, growing up in the fundamentalist Christian tradition, I recall hearing that the Catholic church was the Whore of Babylon. Of course now that I’m a Presbyterian, I recognize the misteaching that fundamentalism so often engages in.
What fundamentalist Christian tradition was that? Was their teaching on Catholicism more the product of being farther back in time? The various Christian traditions have generally tried to emphasize commonalities rather than differences since the Catholic church went through Vatican II.
Those Anglicans ...should look to the founder of their faith for humility and guidance on their path to righteousness.
Except that Henry VIII wasn't really Protestant, he just wanted a divorce and the Church's power and money. Edward VI was the first real Anglican monarch. Cranmer's Prayer Book came out in his reign.
This thing about the Pope and no hell below us - it's only a couple of beats to above us only sky.
"growing up in the fundamentalist Christian tradition, I recall hearing that the Catholic church was the Whore of Babylon. Of course now that I’m a Presbyterian, I recognize the misteaching that fundamentalism so often engages in."
Inga, you might brush up on your history of the Presbyterian Church.
While you're at it you might explore the origins of the word "fundamentalist".
“What fundamentalist Christian tradition was that? Was their teaching on Catholicism more the product of being farther back in time? The various Christian traditions have generally tried to emphasize commonalities rather than differences since the Catholic church went through Vatican II.”
Assemblies of God, Pentecostal, Evangelical.
“The various Christian traditions have generally tried to emphasize commonalities rather than differences since the Catholic church went through Vatican II.”
I have no idea how modern day Pentecostals see the Catholic Church today, but growing up in the Assemblies of God, we had numerous sermons on “The Whore of Babylon”, aka the Catholic Church.
If I tell the Pope to go to Hell, is that wrong since it doesn’t exist?
Deep thoughts.
No Judas was a vehicle to fulfill to fulfill the covenant, I agree with you about Henry VIII,
In his Lenten message for 2016, Francis said this about Hell:
"Yet the danger always remains that by a constant refusal to open the doors of their hearts to Christ who knocks on them in the poor, the proud, rich and powerful will end up condemning themselves and plunging into the eternal abyss of solitude which is Hell."
Which is what the Catechism says. He probably said something like that to the journalist, and the journalist turned it into the annihilation thesis held by some Protestant sects. At least that's what I'm hoping, but you never know with Francis.
If you really want to get fine about it, we aren’t going to heaven either. The Bible ends with the ultimate expression of a God and humanity dwelling jointly in the Holy City, New Jerusalem which comes down out of a Heaven to earth for its ultimate destination.
The so-called orthodox teaching of heaven and hell are non-scriptural.
@mandrewa
I've heard great things about this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Light-Christ-Introduction-Catholicism/dp/0813229715
“Inga, you might brush up on your history of the Presbyterian Church.”
The modern day Presbyterian Church isn’t what is considered “fundamentalist” today whatsoever, that is why I chose it. As I just said, I grew up in a Pentecostal Church, which was and still is FAR more fundamentalist than any Presbyterian Church. It appears that the meaning of the word fundamentalism may have changed over the years, since the Presbyterian Church was formed. Or the fundamentalist Presbyterians lost the argument and a more liberal church emerged.
“Interpretations of Christian fundamentalism have changed over time.[7] Fundamentalism as a movement manifested in various denominations with various theologies, rather than a single denomination or systematic theology. It became active in the 1910s after the release of The Fundamentals, a twelve-volume set of essays, apologetic and polemic, written by conservative Protestant theologians to defend what they saw as Protestant orthodoxy. The movement became more organized in the 1920s within U.S. Protestant churches, especially Baptist and Presbyterian ones.
The term fundamentalist is controversial in the 21st century, as it can carry the connotation of religious extremism, even though it was coined by movement leaders. Some who hold these beliefs reject the label of "fundamentalism", seeing it as too pejorative,[9] while to others it has become a banner of pride. Such Christians prefer to use the term fundamental, as opposed to fundamentalist (e.g., Independent Fundamental Baptist and Independent Fundamental Churches of America).[10] The term is sometimes confused with Christian legalism.[11“
Wiki
Wiki
“While you're at it you might explore the origins of the word "fundamentalist".”
And you might try not to be so condescending.
Here you go, explains it perfectly.
“Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. (PCUSA) - by far the largest (over 10,000 congregations), this denomination was formed by the merger of the United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A and the Presbyterian Church in the United States. Not so Calvinistic. This is where you find the moderates and liberals, though the denomination has its share of conservatives, too. The really hardline evangelical/fundy types have mostly left for other denominations. You can think of them as the "Episcopalians" of Presbyterianism.”
Godfather suggests: and almost anything else by [C.S.] Lewis that appeals to you.
Especially Mere Christianity and The Screwtape Letters for starters. Then read everything he ever wrote. It's worth it.
I can only state Orthodox Christian theology on the subject, which as I understand it is this:
Hell and Hades are different things. Hades was the abode of the dead - it was where souls separated from bodies went. Upon his death, Christ descended into Hades, and destroyed it. It no longer exists. All souls hitherto in Hades are now alive in Christ. For the virtuous souls, this is bliss, for the damned, Christ's presence is torture. And yet all souls await Christ's return to earth, and the resurrection, where they will be reunited with incorrupt bodies.
Hell is different from Hades. It is the final judgment of the damned, reunited with their bodies in the resurrection. It is not so much a place as a condition, although the natural consequence of Hell is separation to a different place, since the damned cannot abide the presence of God and will try to remove themselves from Him. As CS Lewis once stated, Hell is locked from the inside. People will be in Hell because that's where they have chosen to be. It is unlikely that it is a place of literal fire, but it is a condition of torment whereby there is no escape from the love of God, which the damned will detest.
This condition will be eternal and conscious. There is no annihilation. There is no relief. We must repent in this life. There will be no opportunity later.
Pope Francis is a dick.
Can't have a discussion of hell without this!
I love the eyelashes!
"In the afterlife
You will be headed for some serious strife"
Presbyterians and Episcopalians dont have much doctrine to them, in that sense Baptists (personal privilege) and evangelicals have the essence of it.
Two thumbs up for C. S. Lewis.
The Screwtape Letters changed my life when I was a young pup.
er, kitten ;)
log sawing.
that's what's going on.
i knew it.
I don't know how to make sense of the Bible. It does not appear to me as one thing. I see a multitude of texts written by different authors with different intents.
A unifying theme is transcription. Another is "seeding with word."
Jon, I'm not sawing logs just yet. Enjoying your comments.
"But this is the fourth time they have 'misinterpreted' his statements.
The Pope needs to have enough sense to stay the 'hell' away from these people (but apparently he doesn't!)"
Yes indeed! This journalist seems to have his own agenda and is not above twisting his words. Maybe this guy misinterpreted a discussion of Purgatory.
Sowing seeds and stitching souls
Thx MT, *blush*
I recommend doing a search for "ancient homily on Holy Saturday" which should return the text of the second reading in the office of Holy Saturday, which describes what "descent into Hell" means. The summary is Christ goes looking for Adam and Eve, and has a brief discourse to Adam.
Returning to the painting, it represents a rather logical outcome of Christ being necessary for salvation, namely that Christ did visit all the dead from before his time in the place in which they resided to preach, but it only availed the just who then ascended from that place.
Hell remains populated by people who have freely chosen that state. That is the terror of freedom and why so many people hate it - freedom of necessity means self-destruction is a possibility. I focus more on the mental aspect of hell than the physical torments, since it seems in the modern world we get a foreshadowing of the mental state of the damned.
It is sadly not too hard to think of people who are so convinced of an error, they are immune to all reason, all facts to the contrary, all contradictions and all pain caused by their error. In this lies the shadow of hell, and also the reason those now in hell never repent.
“But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here.”
Up early, power's out, spent an hour setting up the generator and getting it started.
Once the batteries are recharged there will be enough current to run the sump pump, and then the refrigerator.
Estimate restore at 7:30am, it says on the blackout report site.
@cyrus83
http://blog.adw.org/2018/03/where-is-jesus-between-his-death-and-resurrection-3/
"Where is Christ after He dies on Friday afternoon and before He rises on Easter Sunday? Both Scripture and Tradition answer this question. Consider the following excerpt from a second century sermon as well as this meditation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Ancient Homily for Holy Saturday (ca. 2nd century A.D.):
Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. … He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him—He who is both their God and the son of Eve. … “I am your God, who for your sake have become your Son. … I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.”
Nothing could be more beautiful than that line addressed to Adam and Eve: “I am your God, who for your sake have become your Son.”
St Ephrem the Deacon also attests to this descent among the dead and describes it rather colorfully:
Death could not devour our Lord unless he possessed a body, neither could hell swallow him up unless he bore our flesh; and so he came in search of a chariot in which to ride to the underworld. This chariot was the body which he received from the Virgin; in it he invaded death’s fortress, broke open its strongroom and scattered all its treasure. (Sermo de Domino nostro, 3-4. 9: Opera edit. Lamy, 1, 152-158. 166-168)
Scripture also testifies to Christ’s descent to the dead and what He did: For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison. … For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does (1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 4:6).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church on Christ’s descent to the dead (excerpts from CCC # 632-635):
[The] first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell [is] that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead.
But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there [cf. 1 Pet 3:18-19]. Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—Sheol in Hebrew, or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God [cf. Phil 2:10; Acts 2:24; Rev 1:18; Eph 4:9; Pss 6:6; 88:11-13].
Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer [cf. Ps 89:49; 1 Sam 28:19; Ezek 32:17-32; Luke 16:22-26]. “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior … whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell” [Roman Catechism I, 6, 3].
Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
[So] the gospel was preached even to the dead. The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption. ...(cont'd)
"...Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live” [1 Peter 4:6]. Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying, destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage” [Heb 2:14-15; cf. Acts 3:15].
Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth” [Rev 1:18; Phil 2:10]. ..."
A good but very brief summation of what Christians believe from the bible is the Apostles creed. Then you go to details and find variations among denominations.
"Even so, He IS a loving God who sent his Son as a way out of the eternal Lake of Fire. We can accept or reject Him."
I read a news article about a woman who was sentenced to 5 years in prison for voting when she was disqualified from voting (because she was on probation). I thought that was an outrageously harsh punishment.
But you seem to say that eternal torture is an appropriate punishment for somebody who failed to believe the right thing. In the United States, we adhere to a constitutional principle that bars ANY punishment for beliefs, even really horrible, evil beliefs, not just the simple, common belief that Jesus was only a man. And you say this grotesquely over-the-top punishment is consistent with the idea of loving God because he gives everyone a chance to embrace the proper idea.
If you really believe that, what do you make of the possibility that you chose the wrong belief and that therefore God will punish you like that? Do Catholics believe that non-Catholics will go to hell and is that the belief that the loving God expects you to have if you are to avoid eternal torture? What if the loving God thinks people who believe such a terrible thing are the ones who deserve Hell?
And what do you think Pope Francis would say in a conversation with someone who asked these questions — someone he knew and was friends with and enjoyed talking to, like the Italian journalists who reported that the Pope said there is no Hell?
"This thing about the Pope and no hell below us - it's only a couple of beats to above us only sky."
I get the reference of course, but don't you think it's shameful if the reason people believe in Hell is that they want to believe in Heaven?
The Pope seems to have embraced a way that preserves Heaven without requiring Hell, but you still want Hell, because Heaven isn't safe without it. You would prefer billions of people tortured forever if it makes it more likely that X number of people can feel ecstasy forever. I'm trying to understand why a good person would believe such a thing, especially when you need to be awfully confident you will escape the Hell you accept for others.
(And don't tell me again that you don't think the Pope really said there's no Hell. I will do a separate post on the subject, based on a new NYT article, and I still think he did say it.)
Ann, you seem to be of the mindset It doesn't matter what you believe as long as you believe in something even if that something is "no God"
What would then be the purpose of God or God dwelling among us in human form?
You have a simple choice
Hear, Believe, Repent, Confess, be Baptized, live Faithfully,
Or Not
Hades is not Hell. Hades is the waiting room for the final judgement
He is the Anti-Pope, installed after a bloodless coup over the rightful Pope by the leftists in the Vatican with the encouragement of Obama's minions.
“ I'm trying to understand why a good person would believe such a thing, especially when you need to be awfully confident you will escape the Hell you accept for others.”
I’m trying to understand why a good person would believe many things that are written in the Bible literally.
AA: The Pope seems to have embraced a way that preserves Heaven without requiring Hell, but you still want Hell, because Heaven isn't safe without it. You would prefer billions of people tortured forever if it makes it more likely that X number of people can feel ecstasy forever. I'm trying to understand why a good person would believe such a thing, especially when you need to be awfully confident you will escape the Hell you accept for others.
Is that what all the people who posit "no hell no heaven" are thinking? (Putting aside for the nonce your very odd implication here that getting to revise God's eschatological policies is one of the perqs of being pope.)
I admit I wasn't paying much attention during attempts to teach me theology back in the day, but I'm pretty sure that even the primary school catechism-lite was a bit more sophisticated than this. You seem to be trying to escape from your own very fundie/childish conception of sin, salvation and redemption. The same foot-stamping you were engaging in in the cross/crucifix thing. Like mock's Bible study companion, you adamantly "refuse to believe that a loving God would consign anyone to hell for all eternity". (With, in your case, lots of self-righteous add-ons deprecating the character of the people who think He just might.)
Now, I don't know that a loving God exists, let alone what he would or would not consign anyone to. But if a loving God does exist, the idea that He is constrained by the adamant disbelief of Bible Study Woman and her legion of fellow incredulous adamants is fairly comical. He's God, dude. One suspects the will (the plan, the judgment, the whatever) of such a transcendent entity is unlikely to be entirely scrutable to the limited human mind.
Not even the minds of Boomer liberals.
[typo corrected]
Having been raised in an essentially transcendental religion, I find these discussions about heaven and hell interesting but not compelling. They have kept Western culture engrossed and enthralled for 2000 years. It looks like the concepts are finally and officially running out of gas with Pope Francis spouting his latest heresy--an odd posture for a pope but perhaps not for Francis.
The Ten Commandments and the Eight Beatitudes are guides for reflecting on one's own life and actions. Add the Sermon on the Mount and one has a full plate of moral and spiritual food upon which to dine. Read the four gospels carefully and contemplate a full range of human thought and emotion in interaction with the divine.
One hopes that individuals would live their lives as though they were accountable for their actions regardless of heaven and hell.
C.S Lewis on Hell in his writings and THE LAST BATTLE, who goes and who doesn't. This is from an article by Randy Alcorn, Director, Eternal Perspective Ministries.
"The safest road to hell is the gradual one — the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. –C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Lewis wrote in The Great Divorce, “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’”
"C.S. Lewis said of hell, “There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of our Lord’s own words; it has always been held by Christendom; and it has the support of reason” (The Problem of Pain).
In the Bible, Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else did. He referred to hell as a real place (Matthew 10:28; 13:40–42; Mark 9:43–48). He described it in graphic terms: a fire that burns but doesn’t consume, an undying worm that eats away at the damned, and a lonely, foreboding darkness.
Lewis said, “I have met no people who fully disbelieved in hell and also had a living and life-giving belief in Heaven” (Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer). The biblical teaching on both destinations stands or falls together. When heaven and hell are spoken of in Scripture, each place is portrayed as being just as real and, in some passages anyway, as permanent as the other.
Lewis’s friend, Dorothy Sayers, said it well:
There seems to be a kind of conspiracy to forget, or to conceal, where the doctrine of hell comes from. The doctrine of hell is not “mediaeval priestcraft” for frightening people into giving money to the church: it is Christ’s deliberate judgment on sin. . . . We cannot repudiate hell without altogether repudiating Christ. (Dorothy Sayers, Introductory Papers on Dante [Methuen, 1954], 44]."
"In The Last Battle, the soldier Emeth, who served the demon Tash, is welcomed into heaven though he did not serve Aslan, the Christ figure, by name. Because the young man thought he was worshiping and pursuing the true God (emeth is a Hebrew word for faithfulness or truth), Aslan told Emeth, “Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.”
Some have used this passage to charge Lewis with being a universalist, though Lewis’s other writings clearly show he was not. But this passage does imply Lewis believed in a kind of inclusivism, where in some cases, mentally responsible people who have not embraced Christ in this life may ultimately be saved. The criterion for salvation, then, is not believing in Jesus while still here (John 1:12; 14:6; Acts 4:12; Romans 10:9–10). Rather, in some cases, God may consider it sufficient that someone has followed a false god with true motives.
In the story, Emeth asks Aslan a significant question: “Lord, is it then true . . . that thou and Tash are one?” Aslan’s response leaves no room for confusion:
The Lion growled so that the earth shook and said, “It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore, if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. . . . Beloved . . . unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.” (The Last Battle)
Aslan categorically affirms he and Tash are in no sense alike. Indeed, Aslan despises the demon! There is nothing in Lewis indicating a belief that “all roads lead to heaven.” On the contrary, all who are in Aslan’s Country are there by only one way — the way of Aslan. Emeth is saved by Aslan — no one and nothing else. Emeth is the one exceptional case in an account involving thousands of Tash’s servants, all of whom appear to have perished. Emeth seems to be Lewis’s one hopeful exception, certainly not the rule."...Randy Alcorn.
The problem with this pope, is he doesn't seem to offer the message of Jesus as the solution, forgiveness and redemption, this was the common beluefin this country before 1960, when we became so open-minded that all common arise was lost.
That picture is Crooked Hillary's vision for America had she been elected POTUS. Scary, isn't it.
Another justification for Hell from Thomas Aquinas, not for having a mistaken belief, but rather rebellion against God.
“The magnitude of the punishment matches the magnitude of the sin. Now a sin that is against God is infinite; the higher the person against whom it is committed, the graver the sin—it is more criminal to strike a head of state than a private citizen—and God is of infinite greatness. Therefore an infinite punishment is deserved for a sin committed against Him.”
Inga, Thanks for sharing the sects that you have been involved in. Unlike Phil, I wasn't trying to judge you. (I was raised Lutheran and my late wife was Catholic, and attended with her but didn't convert so I consider myself Christian "at-large".)
I have had some exposure to the Assembly of God sect, as one of my aunt and uncles converted to that church. It seemed they got pretty weird on religion then.
If by Evangelical, you are referring to the sect that merged with the Lutherans back in Prussia and Germany almost 200 years ago, I also have some knowledge. The Evangelicals in America merged with the Reformed Church and they ultimately were a big part of the United Church of Christ that was formed in 1957 in another merger. My great-great grandmother on my dad's side went to an Evangelical Church when she moved (from Minnesota) to the warmer climes of the eastern shore of Maryland in the early 1900s.
I haven't had any exposure to Pentecostals.
“If by Evangelical, you are referring to the sect that merged with the Lutherans back in Prussia and Germany almost 200 years ago, I also have some knowledge. The Evangelicals in America merged with the Reformed Church and they ultimately were a big part of the United Church of Christ that was formed in 1957 in another merger. My great-great grandmother on my dad's side went to an Evangelical Church when she moved (from Minnesota) to the warmer climes of the eastern shore of Maryland in the early 1900s.”
No, the evangelism I’m referring to is the American type evangelism. My German parents and forbearers in Germany and then in Croatia ( from 1720 onward until 1944) belonged to the Evangelische Kirche. When they were refugees in Austria, they were converted to Pentecostalism by American missionaries to the DP camps. It was explained to me by a Lutheran pastor from Canada that there was a vacuum when they were refugees in Austria, as Austria is a mostly Catholic country and some Lutheran refugees were ripe for the taking.
Inga, I wasn't sure about your American religious "Evangelical" experience.
I guessed right on the Evangelische Kirche part, since I knew you were at least part German from Althouse threads of years past. My great-great grandfather was from Hinter Pommern (i.e. Pomerania, now part of Poland) but came to America in the 1830s. My great-great grandmother (that I previously referred to) was one of the Protestants in Austria that were driven out when there was religious strife there in the 1840s. They met in Wisconsin, Dodge County, near Horicon. They attended Lutheran churches in Minnesota, but when she ventured down to Maryland with 2 daughters and a son-in-law in 1908, she went to the Evangelical Church. Most likely because the pastor there spoke fluent German. I have done some genealogical research on this and have contacted the church, which is now UCC.
Interesting, Danno! I was surprised to hear how Catholic Austria was back then and even now.
My forebearers were from Hesse, Germany. They emigrated to the eastern lands of the Austria Hungary region in 1720 and them moved south in the early 1800’s to what eventually became Croatia. Of course because they were ethnic Germans they were “cleansed” out of Eastern Euprope after WW2. They stayed in Austria as Displaced Persons from 1944 to 1955 when they emigrated to the US. They waited all those years to get permission to emigrate. Luckily my father had an Uncle who emigrated to Wisconsin at the turn of the century and sponsored us. Many of those who couldn’t emigrate to the US emigrated to Canada. All of my mothers side went to Canada. I spent many happy summers there with my Evangelische German relatives
Inga, Thanks for sharing.
I know the ethnic Germans of Pomerania were also cleansed out of Poland at the same time. A gentleman I conversed via email who had lived in Pomerania as a child, and was searching the Pommern Kontacte website for my surname, told me how his family escaped to Berlin at that time. I lost contact with him as it was lots of work to write emails with my limited German.
My next goal is to see if I can communicate with the Evangelische Kirche in the Austrian town my great-great grandmother was originally from and find more information.
Is there any crime, any sin, so heinous that it warrants an eternity in Hell (with or without the fire and brimstone, or the ice of Dante's Inferno?
Or anyone so good and wonderful that he merits an eternity in Heaven?
"They began in the dawning, the high-born tribe,..." Easy to find online.
That has been denied by the Vatican as wwww noted.
And maybe so. But it's revealing how many people wouldn't be surprised in the least if this Pope actually said it.
He's a real piece of work.
@ Althouse - "I get the reference of course, but don't you think it's shameful if the reason people believe in Hell is that they want to believe in Heaven?"
Really, it's hard for me to get down with the entire business. I have never been able to get past Aristotle's concept of God as the prime mover, because everything else requires too much of a suspension of disbelief. So I don't believe in any of the usual gods, although it is a big universe, and there may be some skulking about somewhere.
Apostles' Creed have said Jesus "descended into Hell"
I read this as "Apollo Creed said Jesus descended into Hell".
"A woman at a Bible study I attended made the comment, "I refuse to believe that a loving God would consign anyone to hell for all eternity". Of course, most of us would rather NOT believe in hell but, then, that would mean contradicting God and He is God and we didn't make the rules."
I remember reading a book by CS Lewis where Hell and purgatory are the same place and there's a bus that leaves for Heaven whenever you're ready to go. The book was about why you won't enjoy going there if you try to go before you're ready.
"He who is both their God and the son of Eve"
He who is his own grandpa.
I don't mean to take issue with any other fine replies above, simply to share from my own familiarity with the Hebrew Bible aka Old Testament. (I studied Hebrew Bible as part of my undergraduate and graduate studies in Ancient Near East.)
There is (almost?) no concept of "heaven" as in "happy existence after death" in the Old Testament. Ancient Israel appears to have shared with much of the Ancient Near East (and we can throw in the Ancient East Mediterranean) the concept of Sheol, the grave, where everybody goes, good and bad, it's not "hell" as in torment nor is it "heaven" as in pleasant. It is simply a shadowy semi-existence of spirits in the realm of the dead. One of my favorite descriptions of this "land of the dead" is the opening lines of The Descent of Ishtar. So far as I can tell there is not much difference between Sheol and Hades... and Kur-nu-gi-a(k) (Sumerian) and Ertset la Tari (Akkadian/Babylonian). I know many fine Christians would say there are references to life after death in the Old Testament. Although there are a few possible hints at such a notion, I would respectfully disagree.
That is all quite apart from New Testament terms, images, teachings, or Christian theological musings on the subject of "hell" (eternal conscious torment) or simply "hades" (realm of the dead, especially those who died before the coming of Christ). As others point out, part of the problem is how certain Greek terms are translated and interpreted. Hades? Gehenna? There is the single reference in 1 Peter 3:19, that Christ went and made a proclamation to those in prison. Hence that line from the Apostles' Creed (although not in the Orthodox Christian version thereof). Not so much Christ descended to "hell" (although translated that way sometimes) but to the realm of the dead, where he proclaimed (preached?) to the spirits of those who died before his coming.
I am pretty conservative/traditional theologically, yet have never been a big fan of "hell" (eternal conscious torment). "But Jesus talks about it all the time". I would respectfully push back and say, "Does he? Does he really? And when he seems to address the issue, what does he actually say?" There are admittedly plenty of references to eschatological judgment and a future "wrath to come".
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