"A different kind of #MeToo story, about several women who worked for the same man. They tell us not only about their troubling encounters with him, but also about their lives beforehand. Who were they when they entered the workplace, and how did their personal histories shape the way they dealt with his harassment?"
I didn't listen to it carefully enough the first time, and I went back to the beginning to relisten and realized immediately how badly I had misunderstood the ideas that were being framed and presented. I was a little distracted the first time — cooking, pausing to talk to M, etc. — and I was also distorted by my own presumption that TAL would get in line with #MeToo dogma and believe the accusers and hate the man. But on second listen, I was shocked at how wrong I was and how much depth was present in the story. It's subtle. Are the women criticized for their behavior, their complicity, their cold pursuit of self-interest? In the end, I think, the real respect women deserve is to be seen as fully human, and that entails complexity. There's a lot going on here, and I would love to talk about it with people who have listened to the whole thing and listened carefully. Maybe the producers are afraid to cross the #MeToo dogmatists and they used ambiguity to fend off criticism, but I think they are genuinely dedicated to the art of radio and the full depth of humanity.
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48 comments:
Thanks for the recommendation. I will listen to this and come back.
You are soooooooooo right about this: n the end, I think, the real respect women deserve is to be seen as fully human, and that entails complexity.
Not the fake respect of ignoring Ryan Seacrest on the Red Carpet, or acting as if men shouldn't have penises.
"It was overwhelmingly men who created the machines and ultra-efficient systems of the industrial revolution, which in turn emancipated women. For the first time in history, women have gained economic independence and no longer must depend on fathers or husbands for survival. But many women seem surprised and unnerved by the competitive, pitiless forces that drive the modern professions, which were shaped by entrepreneurial male bonding. It remains to be seen whether those deep patterns of mutually bruising male teamwork, which may date from the Stone Age, can be altered to accommodate female sensitivities without reducing productivity and progress.
Women’s discontent and confusion are being worsened by the postmodernist rhetoric of academe, which asserts that gender is a social construct and that biological sex differences don’t exist or don’t matter.
..." -- Paglia
M? Like MI5/007, M? Cool!
Maybe I'm watching too many movies...
What I learned from listening to part of Act 6 "Kristen" is that there may be a correlation between being raped and having a vocal fry.
The difference between the stupid kid and the whispery, smacky, close to the mic voice of the typically omniscient PBS narrator.
Postmodernism doesn't claim gender is a social construct. That's academic postmodernism, which means academic dogma, which means leftist dogma.
To postmodernism, academic postmodernism is a social construct.
To postmodernism, truth is something to be amazed by; as are masculinity and femininity.
The radio show sounds too soap opera-like to a guy to try.
All women have to do is actually be interested in something that iterests them instead of faking it. Just like guys.
Their interests differ.
It's not complexity per se, but complexity interests women, abstraction interests guys.
March 7 is the anniversary of the birth of the universe.
It had to happen on some day, right?
#MeToo is evidence of the shallowness of women, not the opposite.
...the real respect women deserve is to be seen as fully human, and that entails complexity.
Which entails dissimulation for fun and profit.
I've only listened to about 1/2 so far but what is striking me is that TAM is really skewering the hypocrisy of Don, executive editor of progressive/far-left internet site, self proclaimed "most feminist man you know." doesn't come out and say it (yet) but strongly suggests link between male progressivism and cadishness.
It had to happen on some day, right?
Not clear. The universe from outside is a singularity. From the inside, it's everywhere and everywhen.
...but strongly suggests a link between male progressivism and caddishness.
Surprise! Male feminism is just a pose, a pickup line. What's not surprising, sadly, is its effectiveness.
64-bit time would cover the age of the universe with plenty to spare. Just extrapolate back to zero.
Complexity? Ann go read about the electromagnetic wave and come back and explain it to us. What the hell do you know about complexity?
Sorry for the explosion, but there is nothing but sheer mockery for a women with a modicum of intelligence trying to talk down to her male audience.
I get the feeling that you were not impressed with the men in your life. Oh wait, i remember there was one - Bob Dylan. Now there is a man!
The griefs of women are quiet, rustle
like crinoline or whisper like
the tearing of old silk;
hum like appliances, give off the sharp sweet smell
of burnt out motors; tap like typewriter keys.
The strengths of women are quiet,
but hardy as the weed that finds its cranny
between the concrete block of the sidewalk
and the concrete slab of the wall, and grows there,
and blooms there.
Men are bums.
We're really better than they are.
Brand X Poetry "The Griefs of Women"
link
Fern quoting Paglia [my bold]: "It remains to be seen whether those deep patterns of mutually bruising male teamwork, which may date from the Stone Age, can be altered to accommodate female sensitivities without reducing productivity and progress."
rh: All women have to do is actually be interested in something that iterests them instead of faking it. Just like guys.
These two points are richer and more interesting than anything yet churned up by #MeToo.
Guys get so emotional about this topic! For all those getting the vapors, just look in a mirror and say, "I'm good and I'm handsome and women really do want to like me but society won't let them."
I would love to talk about it with people who have listened to the whole thing and listened carefully.
Your cri du coeur falls upon the deaf ears of your dopey commenters.
"It had to happen on some day, right?"
No sun, no day.
I'll listen to it on your recommendation, but I admit my eyes glaze over when I hear things like the real respect women deserve is to be seen as fully human, and that entails complexity. Leaving aside what it is even supposed to mean, who is arguing against that? What could any man possibly say other than "Right on!!"
Is the struggle for true gender equality to be fought with the language of chick-lit?
"Your cri du coeur falls upon the deaf ears of your dopey commenters."
Well, there's deaf, and then there's Life. Not that the latter ever stopped me from opining about anything.
"I think, the real respect women deserve is to be seen as fully human, and that entails complexity." But is "real respect" What Women Want?
"strongly suggests link between male progressivism and cadishness." Wait, I have to listen to the radio to learn this? Like, no one ever knew that progressivism was the beta male's strategy to get laid?
"Your cri du coeur falls"
We deplorables stop reading when we encounter an error that shows we are being patronized by one of our inferiors.
Back to Proust. TAL will have to wait.
One thing that strikes me about this podcast is the facile way the women confidently claim knowledge of things they cannot know.
Eye rolling. The most immediate way to pick out the real idiots in any crowd of women is the eye roll, the easy tell of the easy lay.
I thought it was a wonderful episode. Much like their episode on Betsy DeVos, I went in fearing that it would be one thing, but TAL just reported the story in all its complexity. And they left the audience to figure out what it all means.
A few key moments that stuck with me:
* Vivian admits that she expected her long-time partner Don to get some #metoo heat, even before the specific allegations came out.
* When Deanna -- his employee and mistress -- gets angry at Don for trying to anally penetrate her after she said no, Don yells at Deanna, "This is bullshit! I'm the most feminist man you know!" Deanna stays with Don for three years after this blow-up.
* Deanna is told that Don has been accused of harassment, and she assures the caller that he wouldn't do anything "unwanted".
* After all of it, Vivian says she intends to stay with Don. Among other things, he cared for her while she had breast cancer.
* Kristin - the 22-year-old -- comes off as the wisest and the strongest. She knows what Don is doing from the very beginning and stands firm throughout.
With a 3-year-old daughter, I found myself wondering: How do you prepare your daughter for the fact that some men are predatory and will cajole/lie/belittle in order to get you into bed (and/or keep you on the payroll)? But how do you also prepare them to be open to forming a healthy relationship with the right man? Simply saying "Men are scum" seems just as dangerous as failing to give any warning at all.
And this confirms what I've experienced in my own life: You can't be an adult until you've reckoned with the ugliness of your own sexuality.
timderoche.com
I've been listening to TAL for more than a decade due to one episode, topic was testosterone, because Ira Glass is not afraid to ask difficult questions that will challenge left wing shibboleths. I've long wondered how often left wing activists try to get Glass fired or censored.
I think Deanna, the woman who acknowledges sex with Don, was brave because she examining some uncomfortable truths about herself on program her friends and colleagues will listen to. I thought it was interesting that all women say they helped enable Don's behaviour because they wanted job. And at end, when Don's wife says she will most likely stay with him, that was shock ending to me because why continue with skeevy asshole who betrayed her.
Human relationships, why do people do things they do,trying to understand humanity will be more difficult than figuring out electromagnetic waves, which will be a doddle in comparison to understanding human mind.
I too admire Deanna for her honesty with herself (and with us).
timderoche.com
Earnest Prole said...
Your cri du coeur falls upon the deaf ears...
Could you please repeat that, a bit louder, I'm having trouble hearing...
Quaestor said...
One thing that strikes me about this podcast is the facile way the women confidently claim knowledge of things they cannot know.
Please try to keep up
Deanna- OK, she was with a lot of directionless young men and liked being with an older, dominant guy she didn't have to take care of. She liked being dependent while telling herself she was independent. She didn't want to be married, and she got what she wanted. She finds out about his common-law wife and doesn't leave. She accepted the control over her life.
Onnesha- What an interesting person. Her description of the separation of her real self and her appearance is perfect. I loved how she instinctively understands how power works. What integrity.
Deanna again- talking about an "STI." What does that mean? Herpes? HPV? "I'm the most feminist man you know!" LOL. She gives in to Don's tantrum. She thinks she is "managing" the relationship, but the reality is that she is being managed. Controlled. The tantrums and anger are what Don uses to do what he wants. She is shocked, shocked when she gets replaced. As if she'd been the first one. Deanna isn't special.
Tana- Her parents' reaction to her being harassed was awful. She made me wonder why 25 year old educated women were so naive about what was happening. Twenty five is an adult age with adult responsibilities. She was proud of tolerating her boss' awful behavior to get ahead. The unspoken compact of flirty boss/cool girl is two-way. Wow, TAL went there.
Kristen- Early education about sexual harassment made an impact. At the time, she didn't like it but it made an impression. Her description of how rape happens in grey areas, where it could be doubted, is telling. She learned from her experience. Instead of making excuses for Don, she sees what is happening. Forcing women to deal with male sexuality is a good insight.
Deanna hooks Kristen up with a lawyer.... oh. Makes Deanna look like she wanted revenge. Kristen just quits.
Vivian is a therapist... of course. She wants to rationalize Don's behavior away. It's easier to make up a story than deal with the truth.
What I'm getting from this podcast is this: smart, educated, enlightened people with the right politics can be incredibly stupid. A lot of women didn't want to take any risk at all to fight back, and enabled Don to continue doing what he was doing. Even Onnesha, who set a clear boundary and maintained it, didn't actively fight back. At what point do you have a duty to fight back?
I listened to enough of it to realize the women who accepted the harassment as the price of admission to have the job NEVER saw the problems their acceptance of harassment caused the rest of their coworkers.
Or they aren't stupid and don't want to risk their careers.
John Lynch I was most impressed with Onnesha too but I didn't get her name so didn't comment about her. How Don wanted to talk about paying rent but she wanted to keep conversation about quality of work, that was good insight on her part but I think it confused her a bit as well.
How Onnesha spent her money was none of Don's business. Either she was being paid a fair amount, or not. When someone forces you to justify something that is none of their business, it's a power play.
John Lynch said...
"How Onnesha spent her money was none of Don's business. Either she was being paid a fair amount, or not. When someone forces you to justify something that is none of their business, it's a power play."
Hmmm. Maybe. When I was living in NYC, in the 80's, I *always* brought up how hard it was to pay my rent when I was negotiating salary. But perhaps you are right, this was a power play on my part.
Anyway, I don't recall ever being at all worried that the person I was negotiating with would try to use it as a means to get into a sexual relationship with me. Male privilege, I guess.
"It remains to be seen whether those deep patterns of mutually bruising male teamwork, which may date from the Stone Age, can be altered to accommodate female sensitivities without reducing productivity and progress."
It has long seemed to me, that women start out saying, "I can do this "work" stuff just as well as you men can", but very quickly move to "I could do this "work" stuff just as well as you men can if you would stop doing it your way and start doing it mine".
You're a planet. Planets are landlords, not renters.
Do you have any idea how much it costs to maintain a Big Red Spot?
I did have a rental agent hit on me in Boston, when I was 16. Gay guy, although I was to naive to realize that. Probably mid-30's. Claimed he had a great apartment for me, and he'd "really like to make the scene with you". I assumed he was talking about smoking dope, since that was the topic we had been discussing. And he was, but that wasn't all he was talking about. That got a bit ugly.
Complex, real stories are always so much more interesting than their cartoon political versions. Listening I felt as though I were a therapist hearing each woman present her problem and noticing what she chose to reveal and conceal. A noteworthy detail is that Deanna was half Don's age when they met (28 versus 56), so my first question of the second therapy session would be to ask Deanna to describe her relationship with her father.
The woman in act 3 is an idiot, and the interviewer knows it. Why not say she is having trouble paying rent? How is it "winning" to say no?? Makes no sense.
Deanna is a fool by shutting everything out (his marriage, no condoms) etc. If you don't confront it will not get better.
The woman in Act 3 never had the problems the other women had. Who's the idiot?
Don Hazen in action via Sally Kohn before she came to CNN: ”At AlterNet, we have quotas.” Would have been interesting to interview some men who worked for Don too.
The deal about needing to be paid more to cover your living expenses is a classic lesson on how not to ask for a raise, always make your ask about the job you are doing. And the story about Deanna coming in as a consultant from out of town and cutting up Don’s food at a work lunch, what a way to mark your territory, girl. But the piece de resistance is Vivian the longtime partner’s 99% confidence that she will stay with Don.
Charity Navigator says Don Hazen was paid $196,180 in 2015 to run the $2.2 million a year nonprofit. I wonder who his contributors are and where Vivian is on that list. An interesting tax law question is whether the IRS could make a case here for private inurement or private benefit.
Wikipedia lists Madison Community Foundation as a contributor. It’s a blog right, so shouldn’t those contributions go to a local blogger? How does AlterNet’s 1.3 million visitors a month and $2.2 million revenue stream compare to Althouse? What does that say about the gender pay gap?
NPR and its ilk lost me 17 years ago. I stopped trusting them and they have given me no reason to start again.
This didn't get discussed very much.
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