March 12, 2018

"I can only imagine it’s worse for women, but it happens to me on a weekly basis. The other night, some gentlemen drank a little bit too much..."

"... and then they were saying things about me, like that I’m delicious. You have women leaving their numbers or playing coy. The women who hit on me do so in a way that is more acceptable. They don’t cross certain lines, whereas men are much more blunt, forward and obvious."

Said Tyler Jakes, a NYC waiter quoted in "THE TIPPING EQUATION/At restaurants across America, servers calculate how far is too far, weighing harassing behavior against the tips they need to make a living wage." (NYT).

136 comments:

cubanbob said...

Change careers if you are that bothered. Or work at restaurant that doesn't serve alcohol such as McDonalds.

traditionalguy said...

That makes we want to stop tipping so big at the Waffle House.

n.n said...

So, this is a minority problem that has taken on diversity proportions. In the female chauvinists' quest for political progress, this approache sacrificed women, men, and babies, too.

BarrySanders20 said...

Who knew that gay men would be so forward and direct?

And why does the writer need to imagine? Just ask a female waiter if the men she serves say things like that to her.

Deep-State Reformer said...

I'd like to see an end to this degrading practice altogether. Pay the servers et. al. 20% more and add it into the price and be done with it. The ownership class, (corps, small restaurant owners, tax accountants, and the other parasites who feed off this practice) would no doubt go into a tirade about "but 'muh free enterprise!" but to me financial exploitation covered in American flags is still just exploitation. Things cost what they cost and that's the end of it. I've had servers tell me privately that in their opinion if you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to go out then.

Achilles said...

Interesting the left thinks that demonizing the sex drive of males is a path to electoral victory.

Gahrie said...

Men are more sexually aggressive???

Say it isn't so........

Deep-State Reformer said...

If there were no tipping required (or even allowed) the master-servant dynamic between customer and server wouldn't be there to the same extent and so the server would be free to have an honest emotional reaction to this kind of shit. Have a few drinks thrown in your face, get banned, or thrown out of you favorite places for being a boorish sex harasser and I think the amount degrading comments, ass pinches, and etc. would necessary diminish greatly, because the servers not fear a loss of harassment and abuse danegeld from their pay.

tim in vermont said...

I've had servers tell me privately that in their opinion if you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to go out then.

Yeah, well...

Virgil Hilts said...

So does this mean that the Ted Kennedy and Chris Dodd waitress sandwich thing is no longer OK?

Deep-State Reformer said...

Virgil Hilts said @ 11:45..."the Ted Kennedy and Chris Dodd waitress sandwich thing is no longer OK?"
It was NEVER okay Virgil. Only that without the tipping thing, the waitresses need not fear a loss of their employment or income for telling those two animals and their ilk to fuck off and/or calling the police.

Gahrie said...

because the servers not fear a loss of harassment and abuse danegeld from their pay.

But they would get fired for hurting business.

mockturtle said...

As long as they keep their hands to themselves, ignore the comments. Pretend you didn't hear them. It's that simple.

Owen said...

The front page of the NYT from which this story was selected is just a series of sad tales of privilege and deprivation. Top right: "Saudis Held In Gilded Jail Paid Billions For Release." Top left/center: "In Horn of Africa, Drought is the New Normal: Millions of the World's Poorest Face a Crisis FROM WARMING [my emphasis]." Center left: "Bridge [in Erie PA] Teeters, Leaving Poor To Find A WY."

They should package a complimentary razor blade with the paper, so you can more conveniently exsanguinate as you read.

MadisonMan said...

@DeepStateReformer: You're being ridiculous. The Power of Tipping is that you can make a statement to the server.

I've been ignored at least 10 times by a server over the course of my restaurant-going career. By this I mean for 30+ minutes, or even longer. (At some point, I start to wonder how long the wait will be so I usually just sit and wait, bemused) What incentive does a server have to do stellar work if what I (might) pay them isn't factored into their equation?

Servers need to work on their phrasing of a shoot-down that is delivered kindly and with finality. That, or learn how to accidentally dump cold water in the lap of a jerk.

Mountain Maven said...

First world problems to the max. Tell them off, get another job.
I wouldn't read the nyt if it was free.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

ban the tipping thing! ban the tipping thing! Freedom for all!

Mountain Maven said...

I'd probably stop eating out if tipping was abolished. The service would be so crappy without incentives.

rcocean said...

A waiter or waitress doesn't have to put up with rudeness. Go tell the manager, and let them handle it. Or assuming you have a witness, tell them off. Its just a tip.

OTOH, if you prize money over self-respect, say nothing. And stop whining about it.

What is it about people? I don't sit around and get ignored when I go to a restaurant. If the waiter doesn't respond within a reasonable amount of time, I go to the manager. Why would you sit there and just take it?

Mountain Maven said...

I'd probably stop eating out if tipping was abolished. The service would be so crappy without incentives.

rcocean said...

Tipping is a way to reward a waitress who goes above and beyond the call of duty. And to punish one that is lazy and rude.

Deep-State Reformer said...

MM, if you want to "send a message" then send one, on Facebook, Twitter, or the establishment's webpage.

Gahrie, businesses who fire staff (or threaten to) for not putting up with serious verbal or physical abuse are setting themselves for criminal charges or a lawsuits if they want to go down that road. Capitalist emptor, eh?

n.n said...

Service with "benefits".

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Lets let the progressives pick and choose what to ban. Freedom is over-rated. They know best.

Shouting Thomas said...

The bitching keeps focusing on lesser and lesser issues.

We’re supposed to care that people have to take some shit in their jobs?

Should we continue to employ foreign serfs who are willing to humble themselves?

Why should anybody take this bitching seriously.

MadisonMan said...

If the waiter doesn't respond within a reasonable amount of time, I go to the manager. Why would you sit there and just take it?

Most of the time it's happened to me, I didn't really notice 'til about 15 or 20 minutes in -- because I'm paying attention to the people I'm with. And when a certain amount of time has passed, it becomes interesting to me to see just how much time will pass. (I'm not one to go out to eat with a pressing engagement afterwards).

I recall a 35+ minute wait once, and finally (I was with my son and he was staaarrrrrving) flagged down a passing waiter and they brought food, but the wrong food (honestly, it was a comedy at this point) -- so we had to flag down another waiter (ours was still AWOL); the manager finally was the one who brought out the correct dish. The missing waiter was the one who came at the very end and apologized for the (now-comped) meal and asked that we try the place again. No.

Let's say this *hadn't* been comped. Why should the waiter be paid for doing a very horrible job?

People are either strong or they are not. I like to think they are strong and can handle difficulties in the workplace. And you know what -- as bad as it is where you might work, there are people elsewhere who have it much worse. Every single person in this whole country is having to go through some kind of annoyance at work, right now. If you want to earn money in a job, get a tough skin. That goes for each and every one of you who is working somewhere, not just restaurants. If you don't like the environment in your workplace, find another one.

MadisonMan said...

@DeepStateReformer, I know what I can do! I can create a Hashtag! That'll show them!!!!

tim in vermont said...

Twice when I have been in restaurants in a party which included an exceptionally good looking woman where the woman said things to the waiter, where if a man had said that to a stripper, might well have gotten him a visit from a burly bouncer.

gerry said...

All work is in some way ennobling. All workers deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. The amount of a tip should be related to quality of service and nothing more.

After 50 years of free-and-sleazy sexual morality, we are reaping what libertinism planted.

Bay Area Guy said...

Tipping is a very humane and socially beneficial practice. I rarely carry cash, but when I travel I do try to get 40 bucks in small bills, and hit the car valet, the bellboy.

And, as for waiters/watresses, Yes, tipping goes along way to validate good service.

As for hitting on waiters/waitresses, well, don't have a lotta experience there, so I'll shut up.

EDH said...

#MeToo has finally reached a tipping point.

Deep-State Reformer said...

Having to depend on tips for a serious percentage of your income is the very essence of libertarianism, gerry.

rhhardin said...

Use gender-neutral language for occupations.

How long have you been a server, honey?

Deep-State Reformer said...

I meant to say "libertinism" at 12:21 but the auto correct "fixed" it for me, and I didn't notice it fast enough. My bad.

mockturtle said...

I'd probably stop eating out if tipping was abolished. The service would be so crappy without incentives.

Like eating out at non-Indian restaurants in the UK?

Shouting Thomas said...

People need to suck it up, learn some humility, keep their mouths shut, smile and do their jobs.

I did when I was young and I learned a lot from it. My first jobs as a kid were shoveling shit on farms. Later, I stood over a vat of boiling chemicals in a factory and dipped baskets of metals parts into the fumes.

This sissification will destroy us. It is destroying us.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

New York sounds like it sucks.

Michael K said...

Does anybody remember "Dirty Dancing?"

Sheesh !

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

We should depend on the government for our income. Tipping is horrible and people who work as waiters in nice restaurants who haul in 6 figures should be jailed.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Just the tip. I swear!

rehajm said...

I would go as far as drawing the little smiley face on the check to earn more tips but that's were I would draw the line.

Okay, I admit maybe I'd write 'Thank you!' sometimes, too.

Freder Frederson said...

People need to suck it up, learn some humility, keep their mouths shut, smile and do their jobs.

The first three statements should also apply to the assholes harassing their servers.

rehajm said...

Non-blondes earn only 79 cents in tips for every dollar a blonde earns.

#CloseTheBlondePayGap

Lyssa said...

MadMan said: People are either strong or they are not. I like to think they are strong and can handle difficulties in the workplace.

I waited tables through college. It was a hard job and you took a lot of crap. Getting a bad tip was a terrible feeling. (One I'm sure was even worse for the servers trying to support families and such.) But, on the other hand, when you included tips on average, it paid far, far more than anything else that a person could do without specialized skills or education - certainly more than any other unskilled service job. This was when minimum wage was $5.15 (I typically made $12-ish per hour, could have made more if I'd chosen to work less pleasant shifts), so maybe that's changed some, but I'd hate to see that go away.

Deep-State Reformer said...

Bimbo Dicker said: "We should depend on the government for our income. Tipping is horrible and people who work as waiters in nice restaurants who haul in 6 figures should be jailed."

A teeny tiny minority of servers make out like that as I'm sure you're well aware. Your point such as it is, is meaningless to the over all dynamic of wait staff tipping. Ok, a sommelier, bottle service server, or even a parking valet, or table buser at a truly high-end place in NYC or LA can make that kind of tip income but the generalized situation for service employees is nowhere near that, and you know it. You're just throwing sand now Bimbo Dicker.

Freder Frederson said...

This was when minimum wage was $5.15 (I typically made $12-ish per hour, could have made more if I'd chosen to work less pleasant shifts), so maybe that's changed some, but I'd hate to see that go away.

The problem with tipping at restaurants, especially more expensive ones, is that the front of the house ends up making a much higher wage than the back. Considering that many of the back of the house jobs are more unpleasant (e.g., dishwashing) or require specialized skills (cooking), the entire dynamic is unfair.

David said...

Navigating reality is difficult. One of the realities described here is the variability of conduct and response. It's not easy to deal with this but you are interacting with human beings, so you have to find a way.

Lyssa said...

Freder: "The problem with tipping at restaurants, especially more expensive ones, is that the front of the house ends up making a much higher wage than the back. Considering that many of the back of the house jobs are more unpleasant (e.g., dishwashing) or require specialized skills (cooking), the entire dynamic is unfair."

If that's the case, and there's no justification for it, then yes, that's a badly managed system. But it's on the restaurant management to keep that from being the case. I worked at a casual steakhouse-type chain, and the kitchen workers were paid based on experience - they could make a similar hourly wage to servers, but they didn't just walk off the street for it - you had to start low and work up. I'd say it was equal. Something like a dishwasher was low skilled (and, let's face it, often illegally staffed), so of course it paid less.

For particularly high end places, that's probably a different dynamic, but the servers really do have specialized skills at most of them. They're not hiring the same people who are dropping off babyback ribs and refilling diet cokes at Chilis, while those places can hire a less skilled prep cook to follow the directions of the real chef.

David said...

"The problem with tipping at restaurants, especially more expensive ones, is that the front of the house ends up making a much higher wage than the back. Considering that many of the back of the house jobs are more unpleasant (e.g., dishwashing) or require specialized skills (cooking), the entire dynamic is unfair."

A successful waitperson learns to share tips with the back of the house support. But I do not see why the disparity is unfair. A professional server has a first class set of social skills and can manage multiple tasks at once. This is not a common skill set and it earns higher compensation.

Gahrie said...

Gahrie, businesses who fire staff (or threaten to) for not putting up with serious verbal or physical abuse are setting themselves for criminal charges or a lawsuits if they want to go down that road. Capitalist emptor, eh?

So you wait a week, and then fire them for being late, or accuse them of being rude to the customers....which they usually are.

Yancey Ward said...

"Considering that many of the back of the house jobs are more unpleasant (e.g., dishwashing) or require specialized skills (cooking), the entire dynamic is unfair."

I don't think you really understand the concept of the word "unfair".

Leland said...

Several years ago, then radio show host (now Lt. Governor of Texas) Dan Patrick interviewed the owner of Brennan's of Houston. They had at that time (I don't know if they still do this) implemented a no tip policy. Instead, they raised prices and paid full wage to employees. The reasoning was the assured income for employees would lead to a healthier personal life in balancing their family finances.

Very much related, Jim McIngvale, who owns Gallery Furniture in Houston, did away with commission sales almost immediately when he started his business. He did so for much of the same reasoning plus the ability to do with his employees as his company needed. Under commission sales, if he needed help elsewhere in the store or delivery furniture, his sales staff understandably refused to assist, because it took away time from potentially making a sale and getting a commission. McIngvale implemented this policy after studying Edward Deming. If you don't know Gallery Furniture and Jim McIngvale's influence in Houston; just look up what he did during Hurricane Harvey.

There is a simple solution to the NYT piece, but it requires revamping the various service industries that use tipping/gratuity to provide incentive for better service. The change would also bring in greater stability and probably higher wages for many people. It will also raise entry level income, become a barrier to hiring entry level employees, and could result in some job loss if made a mandatory thing. There will also be, as Jim McIngvale pointed out when he first implemented his policy, a lot of workers that oppose such a change, because they are outstanding performers that stand to make more money with the current arrangement. I doubt the NYT interviewed any of those people.

mockturtle said...

Deep State Reformer comments: You're just throwing sand now Bimbo Dicker.

I think I know Bimbo well enough to infer she was being sarcastic. ;-)

Gahrie said...

Considering that many of the back of the house jobs are more unpleasant (e.g., dishwashing) or require specialized skills (cooking), the entire dynamic is unfair.

I say we pass a law forcing the dishwashers and the cooks to change jobs with the waiters and busboys every month.

Michael K said...

I waited tables through college. It was a hard job and you took a lot of crap.

I was a "hasher" at a sorority house most of college and we got free meals. Some of the girls were really cute and i knew guys who married girls from the sorority they worked at.

Freder, my daughter worked as a server through college and they ALWAYS shared tips with the back staff.

Mac McConnell said...

Most restaurants would go out of business if the owners had to pay a "living wage" and prohibit tipping. For that matter most wait staff I know wouldn't agree to that. The way most establishments work is that the bartenders and wait staff get paid about one half the minimum wage as actual wage from the management. The tips are a transaction between server and customer, by the way that income can't be garnished as management never has control of it.

Management does collect taxes on those tips, at least those actually reported. I live in KC, but I do taxes from almost all the states. One I'm doing as we speak is for a NYC bartender.
His W-2 income is $ 21,894, of that only $ 4,643 are wages. He also has a shit load of 1099 income from bartending, no tips reported (or taxed).

The point being that a lot of tips never are reported. In successful bar / restaurants most W-2 income is wildly understated. I've known waitresses whose W-2 stated $ 25,000, but in reality she made $40,000.

This NYC Tyler kid needs to get a job where he interacts with absolutely no one in the public or maybe a bath house.

cubanbob said...

Deep-State Reformer said...
Having to depend on tips for a serious percentage of your income is the very essence of libertarianism, gerry."

Gee it's like being a commissioned salesman! You do realize that there are more than one career path choice available to the average person. Fear not, soon enough there will be advances in AI and robotics rendering wait staff obsolete. Then those people will be dependent on brilliant people like you paying tons in taxes to keep the former wait staffers on a generous welfare allotment.

Rabel said...

You can give Althouse a tip through the convenient paypay link below her avatar.

I would recommend exercising extreme caution in requesting sexual favors in return.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Life is terrible in America for unskilled people who want to work and move up the ladder. The government should take over, because everything in sight is unfair.
Right Proggy Reformer?

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Deep State Reformer wants big nanny state government to make life perfect for everyone, because it's all so unfair. I hear Valenzuela is on the edge of perfection for the people. So soon life will be a glorious socialist paradise!

Lipperman said...

“A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”

― Dave Barry

Michael said...

I tip like a motherfucker. more, much more at cheaper establishments as a percentage of the bill than at upscale restaurants but no less than 25% at these. These people work their asses off. I wish I could afford to tip the odd grand at the Waffle House, for example. These are great people who could use a bump like that. The waiter in the article is the rare exception I might make and leave zero tip. He seems like such a whining ass.

in those places where tipping is not customary you can expect service to be less than stellar.

William said...

I knew a girl who was strikingly attractive and worked at a fashionable restaurant. I think she got the job mostly on her looks. The restaurant blatantly discriminated against women with bad complexions or stringy hair. And there were no fat waitresses. Ironic when you think that the success of their business depended on people overeating. Rank hypocrisy. The girl involved told me that she frequently got hit on, but the only real problem was with Japanese tourists who were extremely handy........I'm a pretty good tipper. I go to one restaurant with a friend all the time. The waitress is genuinely happy to see me. She really lights up and makes every effort to get the order right and delivered promptly. If you're a regular, it pays to overtip. The beauty and purity of our relationship would probably be subverted, however, if I pinched her ass, so I refrain from such behavior.

Rusty said...

Deep-State Reformer said...
I'd like to see an end to this degrading practice altogether. Pay the servers et. al. 20% more and add it into the price and be done with it. The ownership class, (corps, small restaurant owners, tax accountants, and the other parasites who feed off this practice) would no doubt go into a tirade about "but 'muh free enterprise!" but to me financial exploitation covered in American flags is still just exploitation. Things cost what they cost and that's the end of it. I've had servers tell me privately that in their opinion if you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to go out then.

Uh huh. And you're speaking as a restaurant owner?

n.n said...

Unless the enterprise is a monopoly (e.g. single-producer) or engages in monopolistic practices (e.g. regulatory arbitrage), then the market will vote (i.e. democracy) and self-regulate to curb undesirable orientations... nay, behaviors.

Meade said...

"I would recommend exercising extreme caution in requesting sexual favors in return."

Yyeah.

Dinner and a movie. Repeat. Again. Try not to spook her. Gently... gently. NOW—throw your lasso!

I mean, she's easy but not that easy.

n.n said...

Denying individual dignity (e.g. "diversity"), debasing human life (e.g. selective-child), political congruence (e.g. female = neo-female), free trade imbalances through arbitrage, and CAIR (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Immigration Reform), have clear and progressive consequences.

Michael K said...

"The point being that a lot of tips never are reported."

If I like the service, I will often tip cash even if I pay the bill with a card.

Michael said...

Michael K

Yes. This technique usually ensures that 100% goes to the server. The credit card tip is split with others. Nice gesture.

Freder Frederson said...

Freder, my daughter worked as a server through college and they ALWAYS shared tips with the back staff.

Tips belong to the tipped staff person (DOL is proposing a regulation to change that, but it is very controversial), there is no requirement to share tips and any restaurant that requires tips to be shared or pooled is breaking the law.

Leland said...

When I was in grade school, I worked at the local grocery store. We were tipped from sacking groceries and carrying them to the car. Most week's I could pull in extra $5 an hour, which was more than double minimum wage at the time. I got a few awkward requests at the time, but probably less so as I was under 18, and such requests could be more than just harassment. Mostly, I just assumed a request to come home with a lady and unload her groceries was nothing more than the face value of the request. It only happened once, and that was indeed the face value proposition as the customer was handicapped, and the store owner asked me to provide her the added assistance.

Now if you want to get tips from sacking gifts at a grocery store, you have to deliver them to the home. Otherwise, it is not a job with gratuity expectations in my area.

Freder Frederson said...

Most restaurants would go out of business if the owners had to pay a "living wage" and prohibit tipping.

This is just bullshit. There are plenty of restaurants outside the U.S. where employees are paid a living wage and tipping is minimal or non-existent.

And of course there are no restaurants in the U.S. where there is no tipping (except for every fast food and carryout restaurant).

Leland said...

I just realized that I'm missing a good chance to make another point. It is topics like this that have caused me to personally side with being a supporter of a smaller and more limited federal government. I don't think this issue needs to be resolved with some national referendum. I'm not even sure it should be decided at a municipal level.

However, the NYT isn't just reporting about this as a New York issue. They interviewed people across the nation, and they want to make it a national topic. I think whatever the solution, it is best resolved at an individual business level.

Shouting Thomas said...

This whole discussion borders on Underpants Gnomes economic logic:

1. Lecture all asshole that they must behave themselves
2. ?????
3. Profit!!!!

tcrosse said...

Anyone who mistreats the restaurant staff must not realize what they could do to the food back in the kitchen, unseen. Enjoy.

Jim at said...

If the waiter doesn't respond within a reasonable amount of time, I go to the manager.

Really?

I leave. Never to return.

If a business makes it too difficult for me to spend my money? I won't.

Freder Frederson said...

It amuses me to no end when commenters here insist something is impossible because it is contrary to custom in the U.S., but a good chunk of the rest of the world manages just fine with a different custom.

A while back Althouse was all bent out of shape at the idea of bank notes of different sizes for different denominations. "How on earth would ATMs and vending machines work with different sized notes?! Oh, the horror." Ignoring the fact that different notes for different denominations is the standard for the rest of the world and they have figured out how to make atms and vending machines work (and not only that but U.S. manufacturers of ATMs, e.g., Diebold and NCR, dominate the world market).

gerry said...

Deep State Reformer wrote: Having to depend on tips for a serious percentage of your income is the very essence of libertarianism, gerry.

I was commenting upon libertinism, not libertarianism.

MadisonMan said...

The problem with tipping at restaurants, especially more expensive ones, is that the front of the house ends up making a much higher wage than the back. Considering that many of the back of the house jobs are more unpleasant (e.g., dishwashing) or require specialized skills (cooking), the entire dynamic is unfair.

Wouldn't it have been shorter to write From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs?

Michael said...

Freder

Not sure how well traveled you are but my experience in the U.K. and Europe is that the service is crap in places where tipping is not expected and where it is assumed they make enough and tipping will ruin it for everyone. In defiance and to the consternation of my U.K. And European friends I employ the US technique and pay up for better service. It works, comrade, it works!

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

I live in proggy commie town, USA where micro-commie/capitalism is king.

At the Mountain Sun Pub, the wait staff share all tips and responsibilities. So, you might get one wait person to take your order, and a different wait person delivers the order. You can ask anyone to help you. It's all fine and the employees seem to like it. The service is standard and your obligation to tip is the same as anywhere.


At another restaurant Zo Zo Ma or Ma Zoe Zo or whatever it's called - they have a small sign at the cash register where you order that proclaims the unfairness of tipping. The sign also reminds customers that a small fee is added to the bill instead of a tip and there is no need to leave a tip.
Sometimes, depending on who is on shift, the sign is gone and the tip jar is out. I think the fee is still on there. LOL.
Freedom.

MayBee said...

I lived away from tipping at restaurants for 7 of the last 16 years, and I like it. I got excellent service in other countries where you don't tip.
I don't see how it can't be done here- the customer still would pay about the same amount at the restaurant, the money just wouldn't be in the form of a tip but in a per hour wage. I don't know why waiting tables is so much different than any other job in people's minds.

ps. I was a waitress and then a bartender at a private club through college. No tips, except any Christmas or end of the summer tips some of the members slipped me. I still did a great job because I had a strong work ethic and believed in doing a good job. Same with everyone who worked there. And yes, I got hit on and I had one drunk guy pull my shirt away and act like he was going to pour strawberry sauce down my blouse. I didn't do anything about it, but his fellow club members chastised him.

Luke Lea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

The problem with tipping is that social pressure prevents it from being a valuable feedback tool. Even with poor service, most of us don't have the balls to tip badly in response. I doubt that a bad tip even tells the bad server to up his game. He probably just blames the customer for being an ass instead. Now days it seems that everyone thinks they do a great job regardless of if they do or not. I've employed over 1300 people so far in my career, and I never met anyone who doesn't think they are a hard worker. This even includes people who are lazy as shit, and people who miss work consistently. My experience is that the hardest working people will rarely tell you how hard they work, and the most conscientious are often also the most insecure. Maybe that's why they do a good job. High self-esteem seems to correlate inversely with performance, and every server thinks they deserve a good tip almost every time.

Freder Frederson said...

Wouldn't it have been shorter to write From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs?

No. Waiting tables is not inherently more difficult than preparing the food (it might require different skills, but it doesn't mean that serving is superior occupation).

MayBee said...

Not sure how well traveled you are but my experience in the U.K. and Europe is that the service is crap in places where tipping is not expected and where it is assumed they make enough and tipping will ruin it for everyone

I lived in London for 2 years and travelled throughout Europe and this was not my experience.

bagoh20 said...

If you really believe in tipping, you should tip the next cop who gives you ticket.

Luke Lea said...

You know, the sexual urge is such a powerful thing I wonder how the federal government thinks it can shut it down in the army and the navy 24/7? Maybe better for society to say fighting wars is for men—and straight men at that—just like having babies and nursing them at breast is for women?

Freder Frederson said...

Not sure how well traveled you are

I have lived and traveled extensively in Europe. My experience is that service in Europe is more dependent on the cost of the restaurant than here and depends on where you are. Some parts of Europe you get lousy service, others excellent. And it is not even necessarily dependent on the country. I lived in Rhineland-Pfalz and Franconia (Bavaria). Rhineland had great service, Franconia was terrible.

Michael said...

MayBee

Odd that it has been mine in London, Cotswolds, Western Midlands and Perthshire up in Scotland. I suppose it depends on what you expect and the quality and cost of the establishment. I defer to you on the long term experience. BTW, I am differentiating between acceptable and excellent. For some the difference is indifferent.

gilbar said...

two tales from back in college(early 1990's):
1) 12:30 Friday night, Cy's Roost; I walk in, walk up to the bar and stand in the crowd. The bartendress sees me, smiles and hands me my beer. I tell her "Thanx Maggie!" and pay.
A guy standing there swings around and says to me:
how the Hell do you rate? I've been standing here for 10 minutes!!!
and I say to him:
I tip a dollar every time I get a beer.
and he says:
A DOLLAR tip! I would NEVER tip a dollar for a single beer!!!
and I say: I think you've answered your own question

2) I'm at home waiting for my pizza. I see the delivery car drive up, and the kid gets out, walks Across the street and knocks on the neighbors door. Then he walks over to the next house on that side, and knocks there. Finally he walks across the street with my (now cooling) pizza. As I pay him (with exact change),
I say to him:
Would you like a tip?
and he says: 'sure'
and I say:
In Ames, even numbers are on the SOUTH SIDE OF THE STREET

Michael said...

Gilbar

Good one. I often have to suggest that waiters write down the order instead of feigning photographic memory. Because unless they are men in their fifties in a white coat they will get something wrong. Every. Time.

walter said...

Kaycee Lowe Wallace, who owned the Trolley restaurant in Hugo, Okla., did not know that a regular customer was groping one of her servers until she got a concerned call from the young woman’s grandmother.

Ms. Wallace questioned the waitress, Klaycey Oakes,
--
Kaycee and Klacey?

Marcus said...

In decades of being in the business, my experience is that staff share tips -- that they go into a pool with bussers and bartenders sharing in that "pool". Please provide a DOL link (or a state link) that shows this to be illegal. I personally do not like tip pools, but as a management employee reporting to an owner, it wasn't a choice.

Jim at said...

A successful waitperson learns to share tips with the back of the house support.

Yep. As the only cook at a particular establishment (many, many years ago) the wait staff could pull in two and three times as much as I was making. We were an agreeable crew and I wondered out loud one day how their tips would be if I cooked shitty food.

They weren't willing to find out and ended up throwing a few more bucks my way. We all lived happily ever after.

walter said...

I wonder how the NYT recruited this selection of folks.

MadisonMan said...

I always tip in cash, by the way, as I was told once that waitstaff prefers that (I think a manager friend told me -- no idea if it's true). So I charge the meal, and then put cash down on the table.

The last time -- Lombardinos -- I tipped ~30% Excellent food. And our waiter was so much better than the guy serving the people at the next table. Or maybe it was the combination of that waiter and the indecisive people he was serving, but it was excruciating to listen to him.

walter said...

Well..I imagine a good number of waitstaff don't report/underreport cash tips.

Mac McConnell said...

MadisonMan
I always tip in cash. Some businesses charge back credit card cost for tips on to employees. I know my barbershop does, although like most hair stylist in beauty salons they are private contractors, not employees.

Freder Frederson said...

Please provide a DOL link (or a state link) that shows this to be illegal.

Here you go. I was not entirely correct. Tip pooling is permissible, but only among employees that are regularly tipped (e.g., you can pool with bartenders and hostesses but can not include the cooks or dishwashers).

rcocean said...

"Even with poor service, most of us don't have the balls to tip badly in response."

Really? I don't know anyone like that.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

@ Bagoh

Even with poor service, most of us don't have the balls to tip badly in response.

I have one small testicle growing in the lab for this purpose. grow baby grow.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

I hate how tipping is obligatory even for the smallest little thing.

btw- If you don't like your job that pays piss little and you need tips for nothing, find a different line of work.

MayBee said...

. I defer to you on the long term experience. BTW, I am differentiating between acceptable and excellent. For some the difference is indifferent.

I'm just wondering how you ran your experiment? Did you pay the tip before your service? Or go back to the same places, sometimes tipping and sometimes not?
I can see if you became the guy that gave tips at the corner pub, that would get you better service. But when everyone is tipping, you lose that advantage.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Now a lot of restaurants you bus your own table and are still expected to leave a tip.

tim in vermont said...

Wouldn't it have been shorter to write From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs?

If the commies found a way to apply this to sex, I would sign right up.

MayBee said...

DB@H - the worst place to have to tip, IMO, is the bellman when you check into your hotel room and they bring your bags to your room. What if I don't have any cash on me? How much should I tip? What if I haven't yet gotten the currency of the place I am? What if I did stop and get money, but the smallest bill I have is worth $50?

Ann Althouse said...

Freder Frederson said...”It amuses me to no end when commenters here insist something is impossible because it is contrary to custom in the U.S., but a good chunk of the rest of the world manages just fine with a different custom. A while back Althouse was all bent out of shape at the idea of bank notes of different sizes for different denominations. "

That sounded wrong and I looked it up to see how wrong. Very wrong. I blogged about a court case that required the government to produce different sized billls because it violated the rights of the blind. I disagree with that judicial activism.

walter said...

Well..if you typically need bellman service, not much different than taxi.
In a hotel, you can probably get them the money later.
It would be nice to be able to charge it to your room.

Ann Althouse said...

“DB@H - the worst place to have to tip, IMO, is the bellman when you check into your hotel room and they bring your bags to your room. What if I don't have any cash on me? How much should I tip? What if I haven't yet gotten the currency of the place I am? What if I did stop and get money, but the smallest bill I have is worth $50?”

If you’re going to be staying in a hotel with that kind of staff, you should think ahead and carry a bunch of $5 bills in an easy to reach place.

walter said...

The newer development that bugs me is being petitioned verbally at checkout for donations to whatever cause the store management deems worthy.

tcrosse said...

At Schiphol Airport, just in from the USA, I stopped at an ATM to get some Euros for walking-around money. Unlike American ATMS, which dole out twenties, this one gave me one, count 'em, one hundred euro note. Try buying a pack of gum with that.

MayBee said...

If you’re going to be staying in a hotel with that kind of staff, you should think ahead and carry a bunch of $5 bills in an easy to reach place.

But you aren't always in America!

walter said...

tcrosse..you could easily spend that in one place there ;)

Gahrie said...

Very wrong. I blogged about a court case that required the government to produce different sized billls because it violated the rights of the blind. I disagree with that judicial activism.

It's a damn good thing the government doesn't make wedding cakes!

Gahrie said...

And our waiter was so much better than the guy serving the people at the next table. Or maybe it was the combination of that waiter and the indecisive people he was serving, but it was excruciating to listen to him.

It was a scam...they're in on it together...they pool the tips at the end of the night.

Gahrie said...

Oh...

/s

Gahrie said...

You know, the sexual urge is such a powerful thing I wonder how the federal government thinks it can shut it down in the army and the navy 24/7?

It doesn't. It just never mentions the number of female soldiers. Marines, sailors, and airmen who get sent home early on deployment because they are pregnant.

MayBee said...

Tips on the credit card can be tracked by the IRS, but cash tips can be un- or under-reported.

Rick said...

Who knew that gay men would be so forward and direct?

Pretty much everyone I expect. When 18 I was propositioned while working the grocery checkout line in front of ten people.

Rick said...

If there were no tipping required (or even allowed) the master-servant dynamic between customer and server

This attitude explains why government and other institutions run by liberals are so dysfunctional. Apparently we're to believe there are no intermediate stops between customer service and slavery.

It all seems driven by a massive inferiority complex, as if helping someone means you're lower than they. The result of feeling you can't be helpful because it somehow makes you a slave is a dysfunctional organization.

I see this now and then in the private sector, but almost always in low level people. When people like that are promoted it almost always turns into a disaster. This a terribly self-destructive attitude which is why political activists push it.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

@ Ann Althouse
“..- the worst place to have to tip, IMO, is the bellman when you check into your hotel room and they bring your bags to your room. What if I don't have any cash on me? How much should I tip? What if I haven't yet gotten the currency of the place I am? What if I did stop and get money, but the smallest bill I have is worth $50?”

It's one more thing to think about before you leave on a trip. Have small bills handy for tipping - which means having to break larger bills fist. Another chore. How much to tip is a mystery because a couple of bucks seems cheap. I always forget on the rare occasion there's a valet only parking option. Oh crap - I'm not giving the guy a 20 just because that's all I have.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

No one is stopping restaurants, owned by progressives, to institute a euro-style no-tipping policy and paying the staff more. Just do it.


Rick said...

Considering that many of the back of the house jobs are more unpleasant (e.g., dishwashing) or require specialized skills (cooking), the entire dynamic is unfair.

This is why the proggies are so dangerous. They want everything to meet their definition of fair which leaves no room for freedom. And their definition of fair isn't much like anyone else's - like treating everyone the same is racist and racial discrimination is fair.

The CS Lewis quote on the topic comes to mind.

Michael said...

MayBee

Mostly antecdotal, but a lot of repeat visits to pubs and restaurants in the U.K. As an Ugly American I feel free to announce my intention to tip on the front end. Compare with other diners. Not scientific, but good enough to convince me capitalism works.

Bob Loblaw said...

Like eating out at non-Indian restaurants in the UK?

Or authentic Korean restaurants in the US. If you go to a place frequented by Koreans the owner generally takes the tip, so the waitress only does enough to avoid getting fired.

Yeah, it's illegal. She's probably on a student visa, too.

rcocean said...

Even worse than the Hotel bellman - some limo drivers expect to be tipped when they drive you from the airport to the hotel.

When on business I pack light and have 1 small carry-on. But they persist in picking it up and making a big show of putting it in the back, and then taking it out again.



rcocean said...

When we were in Thailand everyone was so nice and friendly and I wanted to give everyone a tip, all week.

But they had a no tip policy!

mockturtle said...

Rick notes: It all seems driven by a massive inferiority complex, as if helping someone means you're lower than they. The result of feeling you can't be helpful because it somehow makes you a slave is a dysfunctional organization.

My British late husband explained the lack of service in the UK along those lines. Because the class system has been pretty thoroughly abandoned, there is a kind of hypersensitivity among workers in service jobs. In fairness, it's been quite a few years since I was there so things may have changed.

mockturtle said...

When we were in Thailand everyone was so nice and friendly and I wanted to give everyone a tip, all week.

But they had a no tip policy!


Likewise, Japan.

n.n said...

The living wage needs to be addressed through a comprehensive review, including market and cost-of-living distortions (e.g. taxes) that are specific to an area.

Yancey Ward said...

Here is Freder once again showing how ignorant he is:

No. Waiting tables is not inherently more difficult than preparing the food (it might require different skills, but it doesn't mean that serving is superior occupation).

The pay differentials aren't due to levels of "difficulty" since such determinations are always going to be subjective in any case- the differentials are due to supply and demand, just like most situations involving labor and pay. If the dishwasher or the cook is unhappy with their pay versus the waitstaff, they are free to go get a job in waitstaff.....if they can get one and succeed at it. That they continue to work in the back end is the evidence that they aren't as good at waiting tables as the present waitstaff. It is no more unfair that the waitstaff make more money than the cooks than it is that doctors make more money than the waitstaff- different jobs with different skill sets and different supply and demand curves.

Rusty said...

Freder. Labor, like markets isn't a zero sum game. The players on all levels are free to enter or leave the game. They are free to alter the rules as they see fit and are free to influence outcomes.
Why are you in favor of slavery?

Paco Wové said...

"I looked it up to see how wrong. Very wrong."

Freder misrepresented something? This is my shocked face!

Anyhow, my data points on non-tipping restaurants, for what they're worth, are mostly from France, and the system seems to work well there. Service no worse than the U.S., on average. Possibly less incentive for going 'above and beyond' in terms of special orders, cooking instructions, is that gluten-free?, that sort of thing. (That's the sort of stuff that gets you the 'ugly American tourist' label tout de suite.)

Caligula said...

Perhaps its just not a good idea to mess with anyone who will be handling what you're about to eat?

Rusty said...

Paco.
There's no point to going to France if you're going to diet.