February 3, 2018

How to resolve the discrepancy of opinion over the Nunes memo.

I'm reading "Justice Dept. told court of source’s political influence in request to wiretap ex-Trump campaign aide, officials say" by Ellen Nakashima in The Washington Post:
The court that approved surveillance of a former campaign adviser to President Trump was aware that some of the information underpinning the warrant request was paid for by a political entity, although the application did not specifically name the Democratic National Committee or the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, according to two U.S. officials familiar with the matter....

The Justice Department made “ample disclosure of relevant, material facts” to the court that revealed “the research was being paid for by a political entity,” said one official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the matter’s sensitivity.

“No thinking person who read any of these applications would come to any other conclusion but that” the work was being undertaken “at the behest of people with a partisan aim and that it was being done in opposition to Trump,” the official said....
So, it seems, the question is whether it was significantly deceptive to give the FISA court enough information to make it possible for the court to infer that the information came from people who were biased against Trump but to withhold the known and specific information that it was paid for by the Democratic National Committee or the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign.

Can we say that very clearly and ask fair-minded people if withholding the specific information and including only general information was the the way the Justice Department should interact with the FISA court?

Secondly, exactly how was this general information phrased? The unnamed official in the WaPo article says there was "ample disclosure" — but how much disclosure was there? WaPo is reporting that the application "did not specifically name the Democratic National Committee or the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign," which is to say that the application did not name the Democratic National Committee or the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign. It did something else that's supposedly just as good or almost as good or not good enough at all.

I want to know exactly what the language was and how deceptive it may have been, and I'd like to see the opinion of some named experts who have been expressing themselves over a long period of time about the role of the FISA court. I don't want Trump-specific opinions. I want to hear from experts whose opinion of working with FISA extends back into the Bush administration.

Meanwhile, listen to Glenn Greenwald calling on his fellow lefties to remember their conscience:



IN THE COMMENTS: exhelodrvr1 said:
So is it normal to not give the FISA court the entire picture? If so, that would mean that the FISA court is aware of that, which is really scary.
Great question, because if the argument is what was done is fine because it's normal, we need to talk about the problem with FISA normal.

And it's an old exercise, and I hate to trot out clichés, but imagine if the Bush Justice Department had used the FISA court to get a warrant to surveil people on Barack Obama's presidential campaign by using evidence that came from someone paid by the RNC and the John McCain campaign and the application for the warrant had omitted naming the RNC and the John McCain campaign.

315 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 315 of 315
Tim in Vermont said...

It’s no surprise. The “Bush knew” crowd, including Hillary, BTW, expected W to go balls to the wall spying on Muslims generally, Arabs specifically in the United States after he got that memo about bin Laden wanting to attack the US, the one he got only a month before the attack, the utterly unspecific warning, he was supposed to lock down the whole US!

Meanwhile, you guys are all happy as clams to watch Hillary skate on the most egregious violations.

The “emoluments clause”? A weapon to bash Trum, did it apply to Hillary’s husband taking half a million dollars from Putin? Nope!

You guys have zero credibility.

Especially Inga, who. rooted on the Scott Walker persecution and now pretends it never happened.

Mike Sylwester said...
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Sebastian said...

"Glenn Greenwald calling on his fellow lefties to remember their conscience" Huh? Conscience?

Mike Sylwester said...
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Matthew Sablan said...

"So if you obtain information regarding a ring of us citizens who are foreign spies, and you don't want your identity to become public because you fear for your life and that of your family, are you less or more likely to provide that information to the FBI after the release of the memo?"

-- Given that nothing sensitive was released, and everything that was released was public knowledge, the only reason you'd be less is if you believed the hysterics from the likes of Pelosi and Schiff.

Mike Sylwester said...

Soon the Shiff memorandum too will be published, and it will provide much information that the Russian Intelligence service had been contacting Carter Page for many months -- even years -- to try to develop him to become an agent and to obtain intelligence and cooperation from US persons.

If Shiff's memorandum is limited in providing such information because of national-security considerations, then the Deep State will leak to Trump-hating journalists all of the information that has been removed from Shiff's memorandum.

CNN will broadcast this information about Page every minute of every day, every day of the week for an entire month.

CNN will glorify continuously the FBI's heroic professionalism and achievements in our country's century-long struggle against Russia's ceaseless efforts to meddle in our democratic country's politics.

However, the Shiff memorandum will make no effort at all to justify the DOJ/FBI's actions to elevate its investigation of Page from merely Title VII up to Title I -- in other words its actions to convince the FISA judge that Page indeed had become an AGENT of the Russian Intelligence service.

CNN never will spend even one minute reporting about that nuance.

Tim in Vermont said...

are you less or more likely to provide that information to the FBI after the release of the memo?

Political abuse of intelligence agencies is a far bigger issue. You guys hide behind Lady Liberty’s skirts, kissing her hem, all the while using the NSA, IRS, FEC, CIA, FBI, against your political opponents. As they said in the ‘90s, gag me with a spoon.

Tim in Vermont said...

”So if you obtain information regarding a ring of us citizens who are foreign spies,

Sounds a lot like Uranium One! But not to worry Strzok was there to save Hillary’s bacon, and she brought home the bacon, and fried it up in a pan! Meanwhile, Bill gets paid out of that 145 million dollars from Putin 17.5 million dollars for a part time job.

Tim in Vermont said...

What was the theory of prosecution in the Scott Walker case again?

Tim in Vermont said...

"Glenn Greenwald calling on his fellow lefties to remember their conscience" Huh? Conscience?

They read him out of the movement some time ago. He needs to be careful around ice picks.

Sebastian said...

So if Page had been followed as a potential Russian agent before the late 2016 FISA application, how and when did the FBI inform Trump and his people that they should stay far, far away from him?

Or did they think it would be convenient to leave Trump in the dark and use Page to justify a broader spying operation, as part of the insurance policy they needed?

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Even the DNC-WaPo must dance around the fact that the Dossier was used to get the FISA warrant.

Kevin said...

Try this. A Trump hating partisan was paid money by the DNC to get fed false info by the Russians on Trump. This was done in the first place in order to slander Trump in the press as an October surprise. The press, however, wouldn’t print the lies so Plan B was to get a warrant to spy on the Trump campaign.

And then leak the presence of the warrant as evidence that Trump may have "colluded" with the Russians and to get a Special Counsel appointed.

In other news, Trump might have said the word "shithole".

These things are equivalent in Chuck's world.

Tim in Vermont said...
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Francisco D said...

Don't worry, Inga.

A lot more information will be released, unless Adam Schiff and his weasels try to suppress it.

You have now publicly stated that you do not support that action. Nor do I.

When you see exactly what Andy McCabe had to say, you will be faced with a dilemma.

Do you accept the truth or do you call McCabe a liar as well?

It is going to be a "come to Jesus" moment for the left.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Scott Walker won the race and the corrupt leftwing corruption machine were able to use fascist bully-boy tactics (the tactics of desperate Communist-D progressive fascist tools) to create a false John Doe investigation based on bogus lies and bullshit.

You know - like Trump is a Russian spy and stuff - and he will be indicted for firing Comey - the weasel.

glenn said...

But, But, TRUMP.

Tim in Vermont said...

Sorry, got the joke wrong.

It’s illegal to tell people that the top of the FBI is corrupt! It’s a state secret.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

...because Trump paid prostitutes to pee in Obama's bed and the spook who cracked the code was a desperate and highly paid British spy who hates Trump.

exhelodrvr1 said...

steve uhr,

That's not even close when it comes to the what are the most important issues coming out of this.

But what is interesting is that you think that this memo is more damaging, from a "what will future informants think" perspective, than all the Schiff leaks of the Intelligence Committee proceedings? That says a lot!

Tim in Vermont said...

Republican congressman tweeted that they have recordings of McCabe testimony. That it matches Nunes memo.

The chips keep piling higher on the table. We have to see more cards.

Tim in Vermont said...

Sad that Soviet Jokes, which is one of my favorite genres of jokes, work now in the US.

Tim in Vermont said...

Meanwhile, Hillary skates with the most contorted and improbable theories of exoneration.

Tim in Vermont said...

But hey! America is already great! And shut up! Your betters know you guys can’t be trusted to vote properly! Look at Kansas!

Breezy said...

The sources and methods the Dems didn’t want out are the ones that show how they manipulate the data and courts to do whatever they want regardless of the law. Other US people in their sights must be very interested in these displays.

steve uhr said...

Tim -- I've always been consistent regarding the protection of confidential information and very critical of Hillary clinton's failure to treat confidential information properly. How about you?

steve uhr said...

People who disagree with you about one issue may actually agree with you about another issue. Amazing

Tim in Vermont said...

've always been consistent regarding the protection of confidential information and very critical of Hillary clinton's failure to treat confidential information properly. How about you?

She skated, the system is rotten. It wasn’t just the confidential information, she destroyed federal records pertaining to a time that she took hundreds of millions of dollars for her political slush fund, much of it from Putin. She skated.

A Russian spy ring got close to her inner circle in the Uranium One scandal, and as SoS, she had them all quickly deported, like the fixer at the end of Burn After Reading sends that guy to Venezuela where there is no extradition.

The system is rotten. Had they done justice in the Clinton case, remember the history of that couple selling us out to the Chinese and the Indonesians, then sure, I would have a lot more stomach for this investigation.

Casper Weinberger Indictment days before the election, later thrown out.
Ted Stevens, Indictment days before the election, later thrown out
Scott Walker, Do I even need to repeat that stuff, using gunpoint o dark thirty raids to gather “opposition research”?
Rick Perry. Indicted for doing his job as governor.

FEC, takes down a movie critical of Hillary while ignoring that she misrepresented payments to Fusion GPS on her filings

IRS Sending tax info to the Obama White House, then claims executive privilege. Not to mention using their broad powers to gather information on organizations opposed to Democrats, and handing that info over to those same politicians.

When is it going to be enough for you?

Gahrie said...

"The FISA court is a joke" -- Glenn Greenwald.

The thing is, Greenwald used to be a joke. He practically invented sockpuppeting, and if there hadn't of already been a term for it, sockpuppeting would probably be known as "Greewalding". When did he get rehabilitated? as far as I know, he has never owned up for or apologized for, his sockpuppeting.

Of course apparently Althouse sees nothing wrong with it, since she has expressed a desire to do so herself.

Tim in Vermont said...

The IRS demanded training materials from True the Vote and gave them to Democratic congressmen.

Lois Lerner took the fifth, nobody cared. They destroyed hard drives that certainly contained IMs that were under subpoena. It’s a fucking swamp. Drain it, burn it. I would rather deal with the terrorists.

Tim in Vermont said...
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cubanbob said...

Somewhere out there Richard Nixon is smiling. The Democrats have just found their own Watergate. The more that comes out the more evident the DNC is a criminal organization. There are going to be years of criminal trials and a number of Democrats going to prison.

Tim in Vermont said...

Why did the DNC not allow law enforcement to look at the servers? You know what they might have discovered? Maybe that Seth Rich leaked those emails! Lots of Bernie supporters were rip shit pissed at the DNC and Hillary! Read Donna Brazille’s book! Then of course we are supposed to believe that the Russians hacked the servers, at Trump’s behest, without evidence.

cubanbob said...

steve uhr said...
Tim -- I've always been consistent regarding the protection of confidential information and very critical of Hillary clinton's failure to treat confidential information properly. How about you?"

Well I'm glad to know that you believe the Clinton's and Obama should go to prison for their egregious violation of national security and federal record keeping laws.

Francisco D said...

Tim said: "The chips keep piling higher on the table. We have to see more cards."

Great poker metaphor!

Some have wondered about the Friday release of the Nunes memo. That's usually when people try to bury bad news.

I think that the weekend gives the Left more opportunity to put their chips in the middle. Pretty soon they will be pot committed and drawing to an inside 7 with only one seven left in the deck - pretty poor odds.

If we give them more rope, they will be drawing dead, as they say in poker.

Earnest Prole said...

I hate to trot out clichés

It's not a cliché; it's the most basic act of moral reasoning: Do your rules apply to everyone, including yourself?

Kant: "Act only in accordance with that maxim through which you can at the same time will that it become a universal law."

AReasonableMan said...

Just to recap, Nunes never saw the original documents, Gowdy did.

Gowdy, the lion of Benghazi, says Nunes' memo is bullshit.

I rest my case.

AReasonableMan said...

The FISA Application Discussed In #TheMemo Did NOT Target A “Trump Campaign Adviser”

If you ask someone who is waving around #TheMemo why it makes them so upset, they’re likely to tell you that the FBI used unverified political oppo research to target someone working for the Trump campaign.

There’s just one problem with that formulation: it’s not true. That sentence is missing a very important word: “former.”

The FBI’s FISA application discussed in #TheMemo did not target a “Trump campaign adviser.” Rather, the FISA application asked permission to surveil Carter Page, former Trump campaign adviser.

AReasonableMan said...

Key Allegation In Nunes’ Weaponized Memo Drop Kicked

"The Washington Post reported Friday that Justice Department officials made “ample disclosure of relevant, material facts” to the court that a political entity provided financial backing for the research

Carter Page is somebody who had been under scrutiny for his uncomfortable connections since about 2013. His name wasn’t picked at random, in order to get at the Trump campaign."

David Begley said...

Rule 13 of FISC below. DOJ is in big trouble.

“Rule 13. Correction of Misstatement or Omission; Disclosure of Non-Compliance.
(a) Correction ofMaterial Facts. Ifthe government discovers that a submission to the Court contained a misstatement or omission of material fact, the government, in writing, must immediately inform the Judge to whom the submission was made of:
(1) the misstatement or omission;
(2) any necessary correction;
(3) the facts and circumstances relevant to the misstatement or omission;
(4) any modifications the government has made or proposes to make in how it will implement any authority or approval granted by the Court; and
(5) how the government proposes to dispose ofor treat any information obtained as a result ofthe misstatement or omission.”

Matthew Sablan said...

ARM: The rest of the quote is this: "” to the court that a political entity provided financial backing for the research, though they did not name Hillary Clinton‘s presidential campaign or the Democratic National Committee."

Which is *the entire objection.* That the FISA court was not told who paid for it.

Matthew Sablan said...

Mind you that back in 2016/17, the popular thought and opinion was the Steele Dossier was paid for by a political party. Namely: Republicans or Conservatives. If the FBI did not disclose it was actually Hillary Clinton, then the court may have made the same mistake the rest of the country was operating under. Not that Trump antagonists had put it together, but rather, that a group that would be, nominally at least, allied to Trump had commissioned it. You don't think that's an important distinction to make?

AReasonableMan said...

Just to recap, Gowdy just cut Nunes and Trump off at the knees.

The idea that Trump is now going to appoint Gowdy to a Federal Justice position is insane.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Tim said...

Why did the DNC not allow law enforcement to look at the servers? You know what they might have discovered? Maybe that Seth Rich leaked those emails! Lots of Bernie supporters were rip shit pissed at the DNC and Hillary! Read Donna Brazille’s book! Then of course we are supposed to believe that the Russians hacked the servers, at Trump’s behest, without evidence.

Exactly. No media curiosity around the death of a DNC staffer. funny, that.

Francisco D said...

ARM: " Gowdy, the lion of Benghazi, says Nunes' memo is bullshit."

I can only come up with two possible reasons that you might make that blatantly erroneous statement.

1. Your reading comprehension is extremely poor.

2. You are purposefully lying to protect your leftist allies.

Read Gowdy's tweets as they are presented in "The Hill" and tell me if he said the memo was bullshit.



MaxedOutMama said...

For me you pegged it, Ann. I think the problem with our situation is that we are being forced to deal with revelations that show that FISA and FBI normal standards have slowly been degenerating to standards that equate to those of a banana republic's. We don't want to deal with it - it's all too awful to make for comfortable comprehension. But the alternative of not dealing with it is also awful.

It is appalling to see Democratic leaders apparently defending this politicization and corruption, and it's appalling to see the whole FISA schema passed through again given these revelations by both parties, and it's appalling to see journalists apparently taking the position that bureaucrats should lead and define the government, and that interference with the political process is just fine.

We are in an awful fix.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

ARM - we notice you don't provide the Gowdy link. Why is that?

McCain is against the memo, which is understandable, McCain is a old demented democrat who wanted Hillary to win.

Francisco D said...

I have never seen such a high level of blatant lying on this blog site.

It's coming from the left as they revert to panic mode.

As further information comes out, expect it to become increasingly desperate.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Funny - we were assured by the left that Carter Page was the link they needed to prove Trump was in bed with Russia.

Now - oops, not.

Because "former"

You know what Flynn and Manafort were also "former", right? The hack press dutifully leave that info out of their coverage ALL THE TIME.

AReasonableMan said...

This is not ambiguous:

"Trey Gowdy tweeted ...
As I have said repeatedly, I also remain 100 percent confident in Special Counsel Robert Mueller. The contents of this memo do not - in any way - discredit his investigation."

If you think Trump is happy about this I have a tacky apartment to sell you in an even tackier but golden apartment building.

Matthew Sablan said...

Gowdy has a lot more faith in Mueller than he should. That's understandable. He knows him personally. Given what I've seen, I don't think it wise to trust Mueller; he is either being ill served by his staff, or is not a very good choice for his role.

Matthew Sablan said...

For example: If Mueller were truly a straight shooter, beholden to the law above all else, Comey would be in jail or at least have a trial date for stealing government documents and leaking classified documents to the media, which Comey has admitted to doing.

Mueller did not do anything about this, so, naturally, I'm curious why. Podesta received a chance to get his books in order when Mueller's investigation found they broke the same laws as Manafort, even though Podesta's group did not initially cooperate and resisted. Manafort provided everything he was asked for and wasn't given any chances.

Every chance Mueller has had to show me that he's an even handed guy just looking for law breakers, he's failed to do so, so, I'm willing to believe he may not be an even handed guy just looking for law breakers. Gowdy knows him, and is probably willing to give him more slack than people who don't. That's fine. Gowdy may just be wrong.

AReasonableMan said...

For the record, I am happy to see these clowns undermine the FBI and FISA.

My concern is that the net effect will be counter-productive, undermining the legitimate efforts of people with long-standing concerns about these entities by associating them with nakedly partisan dumb-asses.

AReasonableMan said...

Stephen King said...
How much did the Dow drop today? 666 points. Let me say it again:666.
Coincidence? I think not.

Matthew Sablan said...

4th amendment libertarians have been being undermined by people who support selective enforcement for a long time, so go ahead and get in line with your concern trolling.

Francisco D said...

ARM: ""Trey Gowdy tweeted ...
As I have said repeatedly, I also remain 100 percent confident in Special Counsel Robert Mueller. The contents of this memo do not - in any way - discredit his investigation."

Please don't play stupid with me.

How does that statement comport with your fallacious and deceptive statement that Trey Gowdy said the memo was all bullshit?

AReasonableMan said...

It is the left, not 4th amendment libertarians, who have provided the most effective and numerous push-back, particularly Greenwald, but certainly not limited to him. But, high on this list are the Paul's. Before Rand Paul began to act like a typical politician in the lead-up to his presidential bid I thought he might be somewhat principled on this issue. His presidential bid was an excruciating disappointment.

Francisco D said...

In case ARM's lying deception is forgotten. Here is his statement:

"Gowdy, the lion of Benghazi, says Nunes' memo is bullshit.

I rest my case."

You have completely dishonored yourself as an honest, much less a reasonable man.

AReasonableMan said...

Francisco D said...
Please don't play stupid with me.


I would not consider doing this, since you are obviously so much better at it than I am.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Yes please ARM - show us where Gowdy said the memo was "bullshit."

AReasonableMan said...

You guys are grasping at straws now. The whole point of the memo was to undermine the legitimacy of the Mueller investigation. Quite clearly, Gowdy said this effort was bullshit. If you can't see that you are a fucking idiot.

AReasonableMan said...

Donald J. Trump tweeted ...
This memo totally vindicates “Trump” in probe.


Hmmmm.

Francisco D said...

ARM,

Cleverness (if that is what you think you are) cannot disguise that you are a blatant liar.

You have made that obvious for all to see, here and now.

AReasonableMan said...

Francisco, you are a blinded partisan. Blind to reality. Being called a liar by someone so emotionally invested in one side of the story is meaningless to me. You are unreachable with logic and facts.

Robert Cook said...

"I wish trump would pardon Snowden and Assange."

I don't think Assange is actually under indictment by the U.S., which makes his de facto imprisonment in the Ecuadorian embassy in London more horrible...he knows that once he steps outside, he'll be arrested by the Brits for violating the conditions of his bail (in a British court), and will then be bundled up and sent forwith in irons to the U.S., where trumped up charges will ensure he will be thrown behind bars to languish while they set about prosecuting him in a fixed trial to ensure his lengthy imprisonment.

Assange hasn't actually committed a crime of any kind, while Snowden actually did. Snowden, of course, should, but will never be, pardoned for his act of great bravery and heroism. (Whatever limited freedoms we enjoy in this degraded age is thanks to persons such as Assange and Snowden, and not to "rough men" doing violence while we sleep.)

Francisco D said...

ARM: "Gowdy said this effort was bullshit."

You are now changing from a blatant lie to an unsupported inference, which is also a lie.

Gowdy said that he still supports the Mueller investigation. Period. End of statement, beginning of ARM's leftist lies.

Francisco D said...

ARM,

Truth is a stranger to you. You live in a world of lies that comfort you.

I try to discover the truth. You try to bury it with lies.

It is here on this page for everyone to see.

Night Owl said...

So if you obtain information regarding a ring of us citizens who are foreign spies, and you don't want your identity to become public because you fear for your life and that of your family, are you less or more likely to provide that information to the FBI after the release of the memo? Answer is pretty clear if you are objective and fair minded.

Let's set aside the disingenuous hypothetical and look directly at this case: If the FBI and DOJ heads didn't want their names to become public they should've stopped the leaking of classified information about an ongoing investigation to the media. They allowed these leaks to go on for over a year in an attempt to harm Trump. Their leaks to the media tipped off Trump and the public about this investigation. They effectively outed themselves through their recklessness and unprofessionalism. Nunes' memo just confirmed what everyone had already pieced together from all the media leaks.

AReasonableMan said...

Simply saying the same nonsense over and over does not advance your cause. Gowdy buried Nunes and Trump, deliberately and with malice, I would guess. It is one of the most brutal takedowns I have seen from the same side of politics. Absolutely brutal.

To say that Gowdy has no respect for these men appears to be only scratching the surface of his contempt.

Francisco D said...

ARM,

To paraphrase Michael K., you need to learn about the law of holes.

You lied and kept digging.

Alternative: You apologize for lying and move on.

Francisco D said...

"To say that Gowdy has no respect for these men appears to be only scratching the surface of his contempt."

I guess you also read minds or make wildly absurd inferences.

Or you may just be self-delusional.

Keep on trooper. The fight against truth, justice and the American way needs you.

readering said...

Guys, this is a boring way to get to 1000.

AReasonableMan said...

Fancisco, like Michael K you are a partisan fool. You guys have a tenuous grasp on reality at the best of times, this is not one of those times. You are old, bitter and befuddled, yet you throw around insults as if you think someone gives a fuck. Maybe they once they did, but that time is now long past.

Francisco D said...

Roger Simon has an important take on lying in this controversy:

"Adam Schiff, Dianne Feinstein, Nancy Pelosi, among seemingly dozens of Democrats, not to mention half the mainstream media, had been warning us for days that the release of the memo authored by Republican members of the House Intelligence Committee would place our national security at grave risk. "Sources and methods" would be revealed.

Now that we have seen the memo, it's clear that was an absolutely bald-faced lie of the most obvious sort. Nothing in it impacts national security in the slightest. There's no mention whatsoever of any "sources and methods."

Unless they were lobotomized, those Democrats and their dependable PR team (aka the media) must have realized they were blatantly lying to the American public. Evidently, they didn't care. How're we now supposed to trust what these people say about anything? Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

Their latest meme is "cherry picking." The memo was cherry-picked and therefore to be ignored. That's like saying a murderer who has a clean driving record and is a good cook is not a murderer. Whatever else happened, the FBI clearly used a slanderous fictional document to get a FISA ruling to surveil Carter Page without telling the court the document was a pack of lies paid for by the Clinton campaign and written by a creepy spy with old-line Soviet connections. And they did it multiple times.

Night Owl said...

The FBI’s FISA application discussed in #TheMemo did not target a “Trump campaign adviser.” Rather, the FISA application asked permission to surveil Carter Page, former Trump campaign adviser.

Why would they need the dossier about Trump to go after Carter Page, if they weren't suggesting a connection between them? Going after Carter Page alone is fine. Except info about the investigation got leaked to the media connecting Page to Trump, in order to smear Trump and effect the election. Are you asking us to pretend we don't remember that?

If they are trying to say now that the Page investigation had nothing to do with Trump, then why use the Trump dossier used to get the warrant, and why was Trump repeatedly implicated in the media as a Russian "colluder" based on association with Page?

readering said...

My question, why all that collusion with Russia. Hope we both get answers.

AReasonableMan said...

earlier in the thread
readering said...
So FBI and others say release of memo will undermine intelligence gathering and lo, a post with commenters undermining intelligence gathering.


When politicians on both sides of the aisle, notably including Trey Gowdy, fretted that the memo would undermine intelligence gathering this is what they meant. By undermining the FBI's reputation you undermine its ability to do its job.

I'm fine with this, but Republican law and order types, not so much. The right is eating its own. The smart ones on the right get this, the others, not so much.

AReasonableMan said...

Evan McMullin said ...
It’s no surprise that the Nunes memo fails to acknowledge other evidence - in addition to the dossier - contained in the FISA applications for surveillance of Carter Page, the least of which would’ve been evidence of his collaboration with Russian intel even before the campaign.

Roy Lofquist said...

A young bull and an old bull were standing in the pasture. The young bull said "Let's run over there and have fun with some of the cows". The old bull replied "Let's walk over there and have fun with all of them".

This obscene brouhaha features a cast of thousands. There are well crafted cutouts designed to provide plausible deniability. In other words, a prosecutorial nightmare. That's why the good guys are going nuclear - RICO (Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organizations).

"The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, commonly referred to as the RICO Act or simply RICO, is a United States federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization. The RICO Act focuses specifically on racketeering, and it allows the leaders of a syndicate to be tried for the crimes which they ordered others to do or assisted them in doing, closing a perceived loophole that allowed a person who instructed someone else to, for example, murder, to be exempt from the trial because they did not actually commit the crime personally.[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act

The well calculated phased release of information (the memo being the first) is meant to a.) lay the case out to the American people and b.) beat the bushes to cause panic among the potential targets. Who knows what will turn up if you shout "jail time" in a trailer park.

I don't think it's a big surprise that this thing is going to come to a head during election season.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Even McMullen? What the fuck would he know about anything?

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

ARM quoted gowdy as saying "the memo is bullshit"

Show us- ARM.

Night Owl said...

Claiming this memo undermined the FBI's reputation has got to be the stupidest DNC talking point.

The FBI and DOJ ruined their own reputations and undermined their ability to do their jobs by leaking classified information about ongoing inventions to the media during an election, and continuing the leaks in order to damage an incoming President.

And before be became the patron saint of losers to the left, Comey was hated by them for the stunt he pulled the week before the election. And that was the FBI's own error because now we know they sat on the data about Hillary's emails on Huma's computer for over a month. The FBI did a damn good job fucking up their own reputation without any help from anyone else.

AReasonableMan said...

Crazy Aprli said...
ARM quoted gowdy as saying "the memo is bullshit"


Do you understand what quote means? Asking for a friend incredulous at your stupidity.

Night Owl said...

Should be "investigations" not "inventions" in my comment above.

AReasonableMan said...

Night Owl said...
The FBI did a damn good job fucking up their own reputation without any help from anyone else.


I agree with this but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is wise for the President and his minions to further pile on. But, as I said, I couldn't be happier. Shame that when given the opportunity to scrap or rework FISA the right failed so completely.

Inga said...

“Crazy Aprli said...
ARM quoted gowdy as saying "the memo is bullshit"

Do you understand what quote means? Asking for a friend incredulous at your stupidity.”

Lord, they just keep getting more bizzare by the day.
—————————————————
“Fancisco, like Michael K you are a partisan fool. You guys have a tenuous grasp on reality at the best of times, this is not one of those times. You are old, bitter and befuddled, yet you throw around insults as if you think someone gives a fuck. Maybe they once they did, but that time is now long past.”

Yep.

Inga said...

“Shame that when given the opportunity to scrap or rework FISA the right failed so completely.”

Yes, interesting how they voted to not change a thing about it and voted nearly unanimously to continue it.

Darkisland said...

Chuck,

How is Stephen Miller like Huma?

I just looked at Wikipedia he does not seem to have any family in belurus. Certainly no close family.

Seems to live within his means.

Seems to be a citizen of the us only. (huma may be also be pakistani or indian through her mother. Huma is a us citizen being born here)

A dentist, 4-5 years ago, could not get a security clearance to work in a national guard dental clinic. His grandmother had moved to Israel.

I really question how huma got one. Nothing about her being in the us.

So tell me how miller and huma are similar?

John Henry

Darkisland said...

Just by way of no harm

It wasn't Republicans who implemented the McCarren Act

It wasn't Republicans who implemented the Smith Act

It wasn't Republicans who implemented loyalty oaths.

It wasn't Republicans who did the PalmerRaids

And so on

John Henry

Night Owl said...

Trey Gowdy tweets:

It is important for the American public to know if the dossier was paid for by another candidate, used in court pleadings, vetted before it was used, vetted after it was used, and whether all relevant facts were shared with the tribunal approving of the FISA application.
1:31 PM - Feb 2, 2018


I agree with this.


While this memo raises serious concerns with the FISA process, I have been and remain confident in the overwhelming majority of the men and women serving at the FBI and DOJ.
10:31 AM - 2 Feb 2018


I can agree with this as well.


As I have said repeatedly, I also remain 100 percent confident in Special Counsel Robert Mueller. The contents of this memo do not - in any way - discredit his investigation.
10:34 AM - 2 Feb 2018


If Gowdy is looking for a job in the justice dept or intelligence why would he risk alienating those communities by attacking Mueller? Plus, Trump has also been saying publicly for months that he had confidence in Mueller. He probably doesn't really mean it, but he's said it.


Yeah, those are some devastating tweets by Gowdy. You guys are a laugh.

Night Owl said...

"Shame that when given the opportunity to scrap or rework FISA the right failed so completely."

Trump and the GOP would be stupid to remove an intelligence tool that Obama and the DNC had access to. The GOP may be stupid but Trump isn't.

Achilles said...

Blogger AReasonableMan said...
“You guys are grasping at straws now. The whole point of the memo was to undermine the legitimacy of the Mueller investigation. Quite clearly, Gowdy said this effort was bullshit. If you can't see that you are a fucking idiot.“

Explain how Rosenstein upgrading Page from a Title VII asset to a Title I asset changes what happened.

In your own words.

AReasonableMan said...

Night Owl said...
Yeah, those are some devastating tweets by Gowdy.


Many on the right agree with you given how they have gone after Gowdy. Apparently saving Trump from himself is the only priority for them.

Static Ping said...

Given the histrionics and outrageous claims that various high ranking Democrats have made about this memo before its release, which have proven to have little to no basis in reality and at times verge on insanity, I tend to believe the memo is true. They protested too much and now have zero credibility.

mockturtle said...

Of course Gowdy has an eye on a DOJ job. Rightfully so, as that's where he belongs. But he's right that Mueller doesn't figure into this issue. Not that I'm defending Mueller, as I think he's part of the Swamp, but he had no [known] involvement in this affair.

Francisco D said...

Inga,

Don't tie yourself too closely to ARM. He is a blatant and shameless liar who needs to apologize to people here for trying to deceive them with lies. This thread makes it obvious.

The same will be found for much of the MSM/DNC complex as different threads unwind.

Give yourself room to climb out of the hole that the Resistance is digging.

Francisco D said...

mockturtle,

I agree.

Fair minded people can look at the FBI/DOJ FISA manipulations and realize that Mueller is not implicated in the least.

He is only a problem if he changes his mission to carpet bombing FBI critics. Some of his buddies may well go to jail, and he needs to let true justice take its course.

Sebastian said...

"If Mueller were truly a straight shooter, beholden to the law above all else"

We know he is not: he accepted the assignment in violation of the statute, which requires that there be an actual crime to investigate--i.e., a crime committed before he started trying to pull a Fitzgerald on the likes of Flynn. Manafort may have been guilty of prior shenanigans in Ukraine, but that did not require a special counsel--and of course, if you start digging into all consultants for foreign interests, you can go after just about anybody. Ask Tony Podesta.

By the way, do we know for sure that Glenn Simpson et al. lawfully declared their representation of Russian interests, both as they started colluding with Putin by taking his anti-Magnitsky money and when they started colluding with the FBI?

AReasonableMan said...

Save your breath FD, Inga thinks you are a bigger idiot than I do. Women have a more realistic view of men than do other men. No doubt I am still inadvertently giving you a few credibility points for just being a man.

hombre said...

It's right on the tip of my tongue. Let's see. Let's see.

I've got it! FRAUD BY OMISSION!!!

hombre said...

My goodness ARM is Ritmo active today defending FBI/DOJ fraud by omission. Why do lefties have such a strong commitment to defending corruption in government?

Oh. Well. There is that. Lol.

Francisco D said...

ARM,

I am waiting for you to apologize to this audience for your demonstrated blatant lies of fact. See the thread above.

The honorable people on this site deserve better than someone who deliberately misrepresents known facts in order to deceive. You cannot make up your own facts and expect anyone to engage you in a discussion of opinions.

Acting superior makes you out to be sadly insecure, as do your lies.

AReasonableMan said...

I apologize to everyone involved that my presence here has attracted such a stupid right wing troll to the thread. For this, I am truly sorry. Sometimes, for reasons that I do not fully understand, some stupid right wing troll will latch onto me in a desperate play for attention. I try to shake them off, honest I do. But they are tenacious little buggers, and sometimes their pleading little entreaties go on and on, despite my best efforts to brush them off.

Francisco D said...

Very Clintonian.

Bill did nothing wrong. We never lied. It is a vast right wing conspiracy.

Don't look at ARM's previous lies, just believe his present evasions.

MB said...

Nobody is perfect and this goes double for politicians and for dubious millionaires and businesspeople. So, if someone wanted to keep Trump, Obama, Bush, or Kerry under surveillance, it would have been relatively easy to come up with a semi-plausible reason to do it.
My guess is that there was a sort of "gentlemen's agreement" in US politics not to use such means against the opposition, at least since Watergate. In fact, probably this agreement predates Watergate, this is why the Watergate burglary was so unprofessional and the culprits were eventually caught.
Most people correctly suspect that the police, prosecutors, judges, local authorities, or the FBI can easily put them in jail or at least ruin their lives forever if sufficiently motivated to do so (e.g. someone is arrested on a Friday for creating a public disturbance, because of Facebook comments).
Hiring ruinously expensive lawyers helps in many instances, but not when the whole weight of the US government is thrown against oneself.
So the shocking aspect is that the tacit understanding was broken and this huge and arbitrary state power was used against one of the main presidential candidates.
It's true that Trump was not part of the club and his opponents may justly have concluded that he was not a gentleman, so all means were fair to destroy him. However, the old gentlemen's agreement was arrived at for good reasons and we are about to learn exactly how and why it was beneficial. This doesn't mean that it can be restored, though. It's hard to build, easy to destroy.

bagoh20 said...

" The whole point of the memo was to undermine the legitimacy of the Mueller investigation."

Unless, of course, the legitimacy is in fact in question, which seem to have quite a bit of evidence including facts like no legitimizing crime to investigate, investigators with clear conflicts of interest, and the whole effort having pretty obvious questions of motivation and illegal methodology.

The evidence of any collusion (not a crime) on the part of the Trump team is far less supported, and so far non-existent. No evidence of a non-crime versus all the stuff we know now about where this came from, why, and by whom. Nothing is quite as clear as the inbalance in these two competing narratives. One actually is a nothingburger, and the other is a steaming greasy patty of meaty substance trying to convince us it's the empty bun.

Inga said...

“The honorable people on this site deserve better than someone who deliberately misrepresents known facts in order to deceive. You cannot make up your own facts and expect anyone to engage you in a discussion of opinions.”

Who the hell do you think you are? You’re an obsessive asshole who seems to have a need to elevate yourself by degrading others. I saw your pathology a long time ago, dude.

Inga said...

“Inga,

Don't tie yourself too closely to ARM. He is a blatant and shameless liar who needs to apologize to people here for trying to deceive them with lies. This thread makes it obvious.”

And don’t you ever try to give me advice. Why would I take advice from someone who obsessively insults the nursing profession and those he disagrees with in the most personal way his twisted brain can conjure up. Go fuck yourself. Don’t address me or drag me into any argument you have with anyone else. You’re repulsive.

Original Mike said...

Blogger AReasonableMan said...”I apologize to everyone involved that my presence here has attracted such a stupid right wing troll to the thread. For this, I am truly sorry. Sometimes, for reasons that I do not fully understand, some stupid right wing troll will latch onto me in a desperate play for attention. I try to shake them off, honest I do.”

Oh, yeah, ARM. Your sincerity is just dripping from the screen.

Achilles said...

I see the lefties are still ignoring the implications of Rosenstein upgrading Page from Title VII to Title I with a fake dossier.

I see the leftists are also ignoring the fact that Rosenstein threatened to use his office to subpoena emails and phone calls of the committee members if they didn't stop their investigation.

"You figure it out."

Rosenstein is going to be the first one indicted.

Then we will see if he discusses his communications with Comey and Mueller and Yates and McCabe before the special investigator office was appointed.

We should start a pool on which rat will be first to turn States Evidence.

This is just the beginning traitors.

Francisco D said...

Inga blurted: "Go fuck yourself. Don’t address me. You’re repulsive."

Sweetie. Do you think I get turned on by women talking dirty? Sorry. That's not my thing.

ARM (the man without honor) is down as a blatant liar, just like Comey and your other Swamp heroes.

I hear a train a coming. It's rolling down the tracks ...

I wouldn't want you to get run over. It's not too late to embrace the light of truth and reason rather than the dark side.


PackerBronco said...

are you less or more likely to provide that information to the FBI after the release of the memo?

Are you less or more likely after the FBI leaks that information to the press? Are you less or more likely after the administration unmasks you and leaks it to the press?

Answer is pretty clear if you are objective and fair minded.

Martin said...

Going to the trouble to mention that the information came from a source with a political interest, and the not stating who that is, strikes me as worse than just "forgetting" to mention it.

It's normal to play "Gotcha!" with the FISA court?

That is sooooo Obama lawyer-ish. Give yourself a tiny window of plausible deniability, just enough to let your partisans think whatever they want, and create a sliver of doubt big enough to discourage prosecution or (in this case) contempt.

This does not help them. This pattern of behavior by the Clintons and the Obama people, going back to 1993, is why I voted against Clinton. And there they go, again.

Martin said...

Going to the trouble to mention that the information came from a source with a political interest, and the not stating who that is, strikes me as worse than just "forgetting" to mention it.

It's normal to play "Gotcha!" with the FISA court?

That is sooooo Obama lawyer-ish. Give yourself a tiny window of plausible deniability, just enough to let your partisans think whatever they want, and create a sliver of doubt big enough to discourage prosecution or (in this case) contempt.

This does not help them. This pattern of behavior by the Clintons and the Obama people, going back to 1993, is why I voted against Clinton. And there they go, again.

Rusty said...

And Steve. Here's the best part. You don't even have to be foreign spy! All you have to be is an opponent of the deep state and its goals! IOW A republican or TEA Party member. Isn't that great! One Party! One People! One Rei..........oh. That's embarrassing.

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