The NYT reports, as I'm sure you already know. Sorry to take so long putting up a post, but I sense that you've begun the conversation in another thread. We were out running errands and walking on Picnic Point, but we listened to the news on the car radio [tuned to Fox News TV]. The newswoman exclaimed "Wow! Wow! Wow!" but I did not see the big wow. So there were some Russians trolling social media. Or is the "wow" that nobody on the Trump team is said to have done anything wrong?
“The nature of the scheme was the defendants took extraordinary steps to make it appear that they were ordinary American political activists,” Rod J. Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general overseeing Mr. Mueller’s inquiry, said in a brief news conference on Friday afternoon at the Justice Department....
All were charged with conspiracy to defraud the United States. Three defendants were also charged with conspiracy to commit wire fraud and bank fraud, and five defendants with aggravated identity theft....
The goal of the Russian operation, which was dubbed the “translator project” and began in 2014 with a monthly budget of $1.25 million, was “information warfare against the United States,” the indictment alleges.
"Information warfare." In other words: speech.
Some of the Russians, posing as Americans and seeking a coordinated effort, “communicated with unwitting individuals associated with the Trump campaign and other political activists.” They communicated with members of the campaign, volunteers, supporters and grass-roots workers, court papers show.
"Unwitting" — none of the Trump people knew.
Individuals involved in the conspiracy traveled to and around the United States, visiting at least eight states, court papers show, and worked with an unidentified American. That person advised them to focus their efforts on what they viewed as “purple” election battleground states, including Colorado, Virginia and Florida, the indictment said.
Ha! The "person" forgot Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan — just like the Clinton campaign.
The indictment cites a series of political advertisements paid for by the Russians, all of them against Mrs. Clinton and in favor of Mr. Trump. “Hillary is a Satan, and her crimes and lies had proved just how evil she is,” one advertisement created by the Russians stated.
That's ludicrously unsophisticated. Doesn't even sound American. Who says "a Satan"? Either you are Satan — the one character — or you're one of his minions — and the word would be "demon" or "devil." Why did these people bother, and why should we care?
While the indictment does not directly accuse the Russian government of running the operation, American intelligence agencies have said that Russian President Vladimir V. Putin authorized a multipronged campaign to boost Mr. Trump’s political chances and damage Mrs. Clinton.
In other words, Putin is off the hook, according to the indictment, and the Times has to go back to "American intelligence agencies have said" to breathe life into the Putin monster.
Posts
230 comments:
1 – 200 of 230 Newer› Newest»I'm pretty sure the Obama administration paid for more than 13 OneVoice staffers to meddle in Israel's last election.
Someone on another board posted this news and was like "ha ha! Any minute Hunter is gonna come in here and claim there's still no proof of collusion!"
Well, uh, none of the indictments are Americans... and nothing in the indictment suggests these Russians were working with any Americans.
So, yeah, that isn't proof of collusion!
What is wrong with these people?
Shep on fox is acting like Mueller will undict Trump any minute now. Ygbfkm
Wow, this is lame. They "illegally used social media platforms"! To "sow political discord"!
It's actually a pretty fascinating little scheme, with lots of skullduggery.
Doubt any of the defendants will ever show up for trial.
And you certainly have to wonder if this is the wind-down, since there is absolutely no indication of any coordination with the Trump campaign.
And while these folks were pretty clearly working the anti-Hillary side before the election, including by supporting Bernie Sanders, they were ginning up simultaneous pro- and anti-Trump rallies after the election.
What about the fecking FBI not following the jan tip from a person knowing the FL shooter and saying that he might shoot up a school. How fucking incompetent are these people?
I think some of the demos the Russkies organized occurred after the election. I am unclear on the concept of how that would be interfering in an election.
I also seem to remember hearing in past weeks about the $100,000 spent on Facebag and that about half of it was spent after the election.
There is a Russian saying "The future is certain, it is the past that is unpredictable" or something like that.
John Henry
Wait till Mueller hears about Chris Steele! He's gonna be so upset that Russians fed a British spy disinformation that he in turn fed to the FBI, CIA, and DoJ, which then used it to justify spying on American citizens and an American political campaign!
I mean, foreigners using a foreigner to "sow discord" by undermining the essence of American democracy! Talk about wow!
He's gonna have his hands full.
Boris and Natasha are going down. But that damn squirrel keeps agitating us.
According to Hot Rod Rosenstein all the Defendants are back in Russia.
It appears that nothing these mischievous Rooskies did was illegal in and of itself. Mostly, they were talking political smack on the internet, using sock puppets, fake names, blah, blah, blah. If they were Americans or had registered as foreign lobbyists, it woulda been Kosher (I think).
These Rooskies should hire Alan Dershowitz to defend them.
Overused metaphor alert, but what a fucking nothingburger.
Blogger 320Busdriver said...
Shep on fox is acting like Mueller will undict Trump any minute now.
Nailed it, Busdriver!
An "undictment" is the total and complete lack of an "indictment"
Sort of like a Seinfeldian "Unvitation"
John Henry
Frank Zappa was right
We ARE dumb all over
Excellent point, Sebastian.
Why is it I get the feeling that this is going to get tossed out on its ass when it comes to court?
If a Russian citizen, say "Mikhail Rostropovitch" takes out a full page ad in the WaPo during an election that says "Hey, you stupid Americans, don't elect X", that's illegal interference in an election? Really? I thought that everyone who stands on American soil has 1st Amendment rights, including furriners. I also thought that 1st A. rights also have historically included the right to anonymous speech.
Where am I going wrong here?
One person who never, ever will be indicted by Robert "The FBI Whitewasher" Mueller is his BFF "Crazy Comey the Leaker".
Comey declares to Congress on national TV that he leaked FBI documents, but he never, ever will be indicted by Mueller.
I was wondering what was illegal, but apparently they made the mistake of spending money, which would run them afoul of campaign finance law, and lied on visa applications.
Just posting content to social media surely can't be illegal? Even if it violates the terms of service.
The statement says the Russians "communicated with 'unwitting individuals' associated with the Trump campaign and other political activists" as TIME has it, which would mean (I think?) that there was no collusion. Or was there "unwitting" collusion?
BAG: "According to Hot Rod Rosenstein all the Defendants are back in Russia."
Now that, is quite, quite convenient.
YH, that was my first thought as well, but it looks significantly stronger than that. Violation of laws regarding agents of foreign countries, and some pretty serious efforts to impersonate Americans (both real and fictitious).
And it probably won't have a chance to get tossed out of court anyway, since I don't imagine any of these folks will be showing up.
And the bit about the Russians organizing the protests immediately following the election was hilarious. All those leftists out there burning dumpsters, redefining for the modern age the term, "useful idiots."
Did you know you can get indicted for "sowing discord" about American politics during a tense campaign?
Everyone on this blog needs to lawyer up!!!!!
What about the fecking FBI not following the jan tip from a person knowing the FL shooter and saying that he might shoot up a school.
All the FBI agents we're too busy texting their girlfriends every two minutes. What do these people do all day where they can just send 10s of thousands text messages. Isn't that fraud to collect a check and not work.
Gov Scott of FL has asked for Wray to step down. The parents, the horror.
Robert "The FBI Whitewasher" Mueller has disgraced:
* himself
* his "investigation"
* the FBI.
He is not done.
He will continue to disgrace all three until the 2018 midterm elections, because he wants his "investigation" to continue to enable resistance to the US Congress's requests for information.
The real crime was casually laid out and in the future will apply to everyone globally: Disparagement of any lefty candidate will be outlawed.
Just as it has been in every nation where the left has gained sufficient power.
But only every single time.
Hot Rod was pretty clear that none of the campaign officials knew they were dealing with Russians.
Shep the idiot thinks the co conspirator is Trump.
@Mattman26,
Violation of laws regarding agents of foreign countries,
Dude, if the foreign agent laws were ever rigorously enforced lots of folks in NYC & DC are gonna be doin' serious time, including the Podesta boys.
some pretty serious efforts to impersonate Americans (both real and fictitious).
At a voting booth? Did they make illegal campaign donations? What?
I'm supposed to worry about a dozen Russians when Los Angeles is the second largest Mexican city on the planet after Mexico City, & the fucking governor of California thinks it's swell if that Mexican population wants to vote?
Tawk about yer strainin' the gnat an' swallerin' the camel!
”I also seem to remember hearing in past weeks about the $100,000 spent on Facebag and that about half of it was spent after the election.”
I saw a report that the amount of money spent by the Russians in Wisconsin, before the election, which was relevant to the election, was four dollars and some odd cents.
Yawn!
People sowing political discord in the Internet? We call that a day ending in a 'y' in America.
Why is it I get the feeling that this is going to get tossed out on its ass when it comes to court?
It's never going to go to court. That is the whole point of the exercise. Get a few indictments and say the Russkis wanted to help Trump by supporting BLM and Not My President rallies. They get to say aha! Trump is illegitimate President because Russians supported him.
It's all they got.
This is not answered in the indictment but I can't figure out why Russia would support Trump when it was pretty clear that they had the Clintons in their pocket?
Today's announcement was like the opening of Al Capone's vault.
Alas, The "Wow" part is the hundreds of millions of dollars spent.
Bottom line, I don't think Attorney General Sessions could have performed the investigation, and/or no one would believe an indictment from him.
So, anyway, we gave up about 100 miles of Interstate construction money to indict people who we can't reach to bring to trial.
Blogger 320Busdriver said...”Shep on fox is acting like Mueller will undict Trump any minute now.”
I won’t watch Smith, but I did tune in at the beginning of today’s show to see how he treated this. I lasted 30 seconds.
I guess Inga won’t be rejoining us anytime soon.
"Hillary is a Satan." Yup, that probably swung the election. No Americans make such hypnotic, hyperbolic statements, so these Russians were key.
Hillary is a Satan, and her crimes and lies had proved just how evil she is...
I wonder if truth is a valid legal defense in this sort of case.
Althouse said: Ha! The "person" forgot Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan — just like the Clinton campaign.
Oh, fuck me. Is this about to get better than any of us imagined?
Well, probably not, but still good for a laugh.
These fucking incompetent Communists failed to sow sufficient discord in New Hampshire and Minnesota. Trump coulda won those too!
“Hillary is a Satan, and her crimes and lies had proved just how evil she is,”
Someone gets prosecuted for telling the truth about Hillary?
I mean it didn't say she was the Satan. But it's pretty clear that her lies and accusations (satan is a Hebrew word that means "accuser") have shown how evil she is.
"Rosenstein answered, “There’s no allegation in this indictment that any American had any knowledge. And the nature of the scheme was the kept defendants took extraordinary steps to make it appear that they were ordinary American political activists, even going so far as to base their activities on a virtual private network here in the United States so if anybody traced it back to the first jump, they appeared to be Americans.”
“There is no allegation in the indictment of any effect on the outcome of the election,” he also said."
From The Daily Caller.
I don't see the crime or why Russians would care anyway. They're in Russia.
No Hungarians named?
"In a 37-page indictment filed in United States District Court, Mr. Mueller said that the 13 individuals have conspired since 2014 to violate laws that prohibit foreigners from spending money to influence federal elections in the United States."
Remember when Obama was accepting questionable credit card donations?
“The Obama campaign has deliberately turned off the anti-fraud mechanisms available for internet credit card transactions. They have no clue how many millions or tens of millions of dollars have been donated to them in violation of federal election law. And now it turns out that the Obama campaign cheerfully takes even contributions from untraceable pre-paid credit cards, a/k/a ‘the pseudo-credit cards you use when you want to conceal illegal activity.’ ”
I guess when they're untraceable, the donors get to skip the indictments.
Good thing someone is doing bad things on the Republican side so that we can get some investigations and, perhaps, some preventative measures.
My disgust is for the audience for it, whether Russians or anybody else does it.
Mostly women. Sharpen up your game.
I read that they also paid for pro-Hillary / anti-Trump ads and that their directive was to simply sow discord, not push a particular candidate... does anyone have any more information on whether this is true?
You know, 99% of the media accounts talk breathlessly about "Russian meddling in the election," without any attempt to explain exactly what this "meddling" consisted of. When you finally get some details, it's about spending a little bit of money on a few ads that are seen by a few people, and that are highly unlikely to actually cause anyone to vote for someone they wouldn't have voted for anyway. And this is supposed to be the biggest crisis facing the republic? There is not the slightest chance in the world that this would be some all-encompassing issue if the ads went the other way. I mean, we pretty much know that Russians were selling information to Democrat agents about prostitutes pissing on Trump, and nobody says, "They're interfering in the election by trying to elect Hillary!" No, when it comes to that, the angle is "Trump colluded!" There is hardly a smidgen of good faith in any of this.
”Why did these people bother, and why should we care?
We were forced to care by our biased press. They were the Russian stooges in this whole sordid affair.
Blogger Original Mike said...
I guess Inga won’t be rejoining us anytime soon.
At least not as "Inga"
John Henry
"So there were some Russians trolling social media."
Exactly what we all do.
Wow, that Mueller is really get to the heart of the matter.
Gum control. After the Moscow department store.
Probably the best that Bumbling Mueller could come up with, and even if they are convicted, they'll be set free on appeal, because The Bumbling Fool never let the defense see information that would vindicate the defendants, and it wouldn't be the first time. What a waste of fucking money.
In Arizona we have a number of foreign nationals in the state illegally, pretending to be American citizens using assumed identities (based on stolen/forged SSNs and drivers licenses), and engaging in constant protests and campaigns (and, yes, efforts to sow political discord!) in an effort to interfere in elections so as to defeat hard working duly elected members of the Republicanparty, all with the tacit & often explicit support of a foreign government.
I demand an FBI investigation immediately.
@JB,
that their directive was to simply sow discord,
Those damn Russkies! The election was all ice cream socials & folks singing Kumbaya around folk singers with 12 string guitars until they came along & sowed "discord" among the American electorate!
This is why we can't have nice things!
Also just read that this supposedly started in 2014, long before Trump was even a candidate...
Re: Joshua Barker:
I read that they also paid for pro-Hillary / anti-Trump ads and that their directive was to simply sow discord, not push a particular candidate... does anyone have any more information on whether this is true?
Here is a NYT slideshow listing some of the ads. They picked out one that is anti-Trump (for an anti-Trump protest shortly after the election, consistent with the indictment), but I don't think there were any pro-Hillary ads (or any pro-Establishment ads at all for that matter), but I am open to correction.
It doesn't seem like much to me. But I will wait and see. Indicting foreigners -- has that any meaning beyond optics? I think not.
”At least not as "Inga"”
We’ll see. She’s pretty easy to spot.
In other news, Mueller announced that he has indicted 27 Nigerian Princes....
Information warfare." In other words: speech.
Indeed.
Some speech if freer that others.
Speech that is negative towards Hillary clinton is forbidden. Speech paid for by George Soros against any (R), is fine.
Re: AllenS:
I think the defendants are all Russians living in Russia. The chances any of them ever bothers appearing for trial are small.
Free speech against Hillary is illegal.
I've been saying for a while - the Russians TRICKED us into our dislike and distrust of Hillary. Because otherwise, she's really swell.
Leftist Narrative:
Trump colluded with Russians to steal the election!
Mueller indictment:
A few Russians --without Trump -- played a few games on Facebook that had no impact on the election.
”Free speech against Hillary is illegal.”
That does seem to be a recurring theme with her.
Mueller:
"Defendant ORGANIZATION had a strategic goal to sow discord in the U.S. political system, including the 2016 U.S. presidential election."
They did this by pushing support for the near-universally projected losers in that election, Trump and Sanders, under assumed U.S. identities and covered their bets with a smattering of anti-Hillary activities until after the upset. At that time they shifted their emphasis to anti-trump, "not-my-president rallies.
Had Trump been the overwhelming favorite their activities would have been centered on support for Clinton because their goal was, as Mueller stated, sowing discord, not electing a particular candidate.
On balance, I'd say that the operation was a complete success.
Those who refuse to accept the results of the election and resist our duly elected leadership are, wittingly or unwittingly, working in support of the Russian goal.
Will it be a great surprise when we learn that there is covert Russian support for the "Resistance" movement.
Rabel - boom.
Unknown: "No Hungarians named?"
Where are the Macedonians?!!
Hillary mentioned the Macedonians!
Why is Mueller ignoring the Macedonians?!!
MACEDONIANS!!!
What do you know? The anti-Trumpers are Russian shills and lackeys.
Colorado went for Hillary, so their big evil plan ..... using speech... (speech that Soros uses too), didn't work.
Don't confuse the ad-buying part of the Russian operation with it's larger effort. They spent a hundred thousand or so on ads, they spent millions paying trolls.
Re: MadisonMan:
It doesn't seem like much to me. But I will wait and see. Indicting foreigners -- has that any meaning beyond optics? I think not.
In some circumstances, foreigners will agree to plea guilty and serve time in the US. Everyone has his own reasons. Sometimes they feel remorse. Other times, they just want to be able to travel to jurisdictions with which the US has extradition treaties, but they're not the kind of person who would feel comfortable travelling on a forged passport. In a situation like this, though, it's basically just symbolic. The most amusing one I can remember is when DOJ indicted a bunch of Chinese government hackers for doing their job.
Will I be indicted for saying "Felonia VonPantsuit" ?
Time to summarize DOJ/FBI Priorities:
Disparaging Hillary : High Priority
Following up leads on potential mass murderers : Low/No Priority
RE: Rabel:
Don't confuse the ad-buying part of the Russian operation with it's larger effort. They spent a hundred thousand or so on ads, they spent millions paying trolls.
Does the indictment say how much of that was actually directed at the US? I don't think it does. They say the monthly spend hit $1.25 for Project Lakhta, but they make quite clear that Project Lakhta included activities directed at the Russian domestic audience, as well as multiple overseas audiences, one of which was the US. Was there a breakdown that told how much of that $1.25M (x however many months) was actually associated with activities touching the US?
It's not surprising that the first thing NYT would do is mischaracterize and misreport the indictments to continue their own narrative.
In fact, the defendants are charged with both anti-Hillary AND anti-Trump activities. The goal was to cause the very confusion and turmoil we have seen for the last year and a half.
$1.25 million, sorry (not $1.25 haha).
Dickin'Bimbos@Home: "Will I be indicted for saying "Felonia VonPantsuit" ?"
OMG he said it again!
You're only making it worse on yourself!
"All I said was that piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYkbqzWVHZI
So.......Some Russians put out advertisements, fake news articles, op ed articles to try to sway people from Hillary to Trump. None of the Russians, that we know of actually voted for Trump (or Hillary)
AT THE SAME TIME: the American news media also put out Op Ed articles, fake news, twitter feeds and all sorts of other types of media to try to sway people from Trump TO Hillary. All of those people actually voted. The majority of them FOR Hillary.
How is this last any different from the first, except the first group is a bunch of private Russians (as far as we know) and the second are a group of supposedly neutral journalists who were acting in concert with one political party to influence public opinion to Hillary and against Trump.
Given the treasonous actions of the journalists and the Democratic party....I find it very hard to get excited about the Russians.
"If a Russian citizen, say "Mikhail Rostropovitch" takes out a full page ad in the WaPo during an election that says "Hey, you stupid Americans, don't elect X", that's illegal interference in an election?"
If Mikhail does that with the stolen identity of a U.S citizen he's guilty of a number of crimes. If a second person is involved they are both guilty of criminal conspiracy.
”In fact, the defendants are charged with both anti-Hillary AND anti-Trump activities. The goal was to cause the very confusion and turmoil we have seen for the last year and a half.”
And one side of the political spectrum were willing accomplices.
Thanks, lefties.
Having heard Rod Rosenstein's announcement of the indictments, like others, I frankly fail to see any actual crime here. Aside from some "identity theft" that I heard a reference to, being a rabble rouser by use of speech isn't a crime.
Will it be a great surprise when we learn that there is covert Russian support for the "Resistance" movement.
No. Next question.
First of all anybody who used info from something they say on Facebook to form an opinion about who to vote for is probably too ducking fumb to vote.
Jury is out on whether Mueller issued these indictments today to take the heat off his FBI buddies for stepping on their crank big time in Florida.
The People's Front of Judea is noticeably absent from the indictments.
Plus....if you are so stupid as to believe the crap on Facebook.....you are too stupid to be voting in the first place.
Shep Smith was having such an orgasm , I was afraid his tampon might slip out.
If Mikhail does that with the stolen identity of a U.S citizen he's guilty of a number of crimes. If a second person is involved they are both guilty of criminal conspiracy.
But the conspiracy would be for identify theft, or possibly failure to register as a foreign agent, which is quite a bit different than what people think when they hear "collusion to interfere with an election." I mean, the fact that a Russian, while pretending to be an American, says something that a bajillion Americans are already saying, and perfectly legally, is kind of a thin reed for claiming that "the Russians are stealing the election!"
Violation of laws regarding agents of foreign countries,
Let's not forget the millions of people from foreign countries -- aka immigrants, documented and undocumented -- who undoubtedly expressed in public that this candidate or that one should be elected. Is that supposed to constitute illegal interference in an election by foreign agents?
I don't get it. We already know that there was collusion between the Russians and the Presidential campaign. It's called the "dossier" and it was prepared for the Clinton campaign with the help of numerous Russian officials (or at least "alleged" Russian officials). We also know that when the press found the dossier too implausible to publish even as leaks, the FBI took it to the FISA court to get dirt on people associated with the Trump campaign. Does this all not count? Would it count if the Hillary! campaign had published the dossier on Facebook?
But just to be clear, it's still OK for Russian trolls to comment here?
If not, I will need to go somewhere else. Heh.
If we are going to charge Russians with identity theft of American citizens by placing fake advertisements, why aren't we charging Illegal Aliens who do the same thing but on a much larger and worse scale. Using Social Security numbers of Americans, fake driver's licenses etc.
Why the double standard? Aliens not charged. Russians are charged. (That was a rhetorical question)
"Shep Smith was having such an orgasm , I was afraid his tampon might slip out."
Thankfully it's not 5:00 or I'd have expelled some perfectly fine Scotch!
"Mueller indictment:
A few Russians --without Trump -- played a few games on Facebook that had no impact on the election."
And we are spending money on this because ?
Balfegor,
See item 10 under "Defendants" on page four of the indictment. The references to "millions" and "employed hundreds of individuals" are used to support the allegations of attempts to interfere in the U.S. political system but are not specific as to how much was spent where.
Let's not forget the millions of people from foreign countries -- aka immigrants, documented and undocumented -- who undoubtedly expressed in public that this candidate or that one should be elected.
And not to mention (Ok.... I WILL mention it) hundreds of thousands if not millions of ILLEGAL AlIENS who voted.
While the indictment does not directly accuse the Russian government of running the operation, American intelligence agencies have said that Russian President Vladimir V. Putin authorized a multipronged campaign to boost Mr. Trump’s political chances and damage Mrs. Clinton.
Is that the media talking?
Hillary lost, so someone must pay. While Hillary is the one who belongs in prison for her private server and what she did with it, and the evidence she destroyed - others must pay because she was supposed to win and she didn't.
An upcoming article in American Political Science Review concludes a “meta-analysis” of voters and persuasion and finds “The best estimate for the persuasive effects of campaign contact and advertising—such as mail, phone calls, and canvassing—on Americans’ candidate choices in general elections is zero. Our best guess for online and television advertising is also zero, but there is less evidence on these modes.”
Zero influence for all that political advertising done legitimately. Probably less than zero for these Russian asshats.
Astonishing: ZERO return for Jeb’s $100 million expenditure. ZERO return for Hillary’s $1.2 BILLION spent.
This whole crazy Russia Russia Russia witch hunt has gone in s year and not come anywhere near Trump. And I’m convinced this news dropped today solely to distract from the federal judge who, yesterday, ordered Mueller to explain why he charged Flynn and withheld exculpatory evidence from him. This nothingburger is going to give Bob some serious indigestion!
"Having heard Rod Rosenstein's announcement of the indictments, like others, I frankly fail to see any actual crime here."
Read the indictments and then you can come back and comment from an informed perspective.
RE: YoungHegelian:
If a Russian citizen, say "Mikhail Rostropovitch" takes out a full page ad in the WaPo during an election that says "Hey, you stupid Americans, don't elect X", that's illegal interference in an election? Really? I thought that everyone who stands on American soil has 1st Amendment rights, including furriners. I also thought that 1st A. rights also have historically included the right to anonymous speech.
Maybe you could make a constitional case out of it, but FEC guidance says no. Foreign nationals are prohibited from making expenditures in connection with US elections. Their little popup for "independent expenditure" defines it as:
An expenditure for a communication
•That expressly advocates the election or defeat of a clearly identified candidate and
•That is not made in cooperation, consultation or concert with, or at the request or suggestion of, any candidate, or his or her authorized committees or agents, or a political party committee or its agents. 11 CFR 100.16.
(The popup for "expenditure" gives a broader scope than "independent expenditure" but doesn't call out the "expressly advocates" bit, which I thought was on point given your hypothetical.)
"While the indictment does not directly accuse the Russian government of running the operation..."
A key point. They couldn't, or wouldn't, connect that dot.
Mueller is a hack.
"I thought that everyone who stands on American soil has 1st Amendment rights, including furriners."
And the courts have just told us that even Muslims not on American soil have First Amendment rights.
We are not allowed to keep Muslim bad guys out but we must keep Russian bad thoughts out.
“Hillary is a Satan .....”
All your base are belong to us.
but I don't think there were any pro-Hillary ads (or any pro-Establishment ads at all for that matter), but I am open to correction.
The indictment talks about a pre-election, pro-Hillary ads and rallys in Florida. Ads saying Support Hillery! Something like Muslims for Hillary. Save American Muslims.
That kind of thing.
"Foreign nationals are prohibited from making expenditures in connection with US elections."
So any Dreamer who made such a contribution will be prosecuted forthwith, correct?
It's time for Comrade er President Trump to tell Mueller he has two weeks to wrap up the clown show and get lost.
AT THE SAME TIME: the American news media also put out Op Ed articles, fake news, twitter feeds and all sorts of other types of media to try to sway people from Trump
Aren't some of these media people actually Canadian citizens or British or Mexican, etc.? Doesn't CNN run news shows that are produced in Europe and have run content about the election?
"Who says "a Satan"?"
Muslims: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaitan
The post could have been aimed at Muslims - it looks like the defendants targeted Muslim voters.
Fry the little fish first.
"not specific as to how much was spent where."
On NPR a few minutes ago, one number thrown out for one organization was $1M a month. $1M a month! That's a lot, exclaimed the NPR woman. A lot!
They so, so want to find that the Russians dd affect the election outcome, somehow, sometime.
Help me understand. Did Mueller or the Risenstein say the Russians goal was to support Trump? Or is that the media saying the ads were to elect Trump.
The quote I see from Rosenstein saying the goal was to spread mistrust of the candidates and political system in general. Nothing about their aim to elect Trump.
AT THE SAME TIME: the American news media also put out Op Ed articles, fake news, twitter feeds and all sorts of other types of media to try to sway people from Trump
Aren't some of these media people actually Canadian citizens or British or Mexican, etc.? Doesn't CNN run news shows that are produced in Europe and have run content about the election?
Yuuuuup!
Paragraph 43 alleges that the defendants engaged in actions to support Bernie Sanders.
On NPR a few minutes ago, one number thrown out for one organization was $1M a month. $1M a month! That's a lot, exclaimed the NPR woman. A lot!
While Hillary spent $88 million A MONTH during 2016!
Now that’s a lot of spending. One million? A pittance compared to the spendthrift of Chappaqua.
RE: Sebastian:
On NPR a few minutes ago, one number thrown out for one organization was $1M a month. $1M a month! That's a lot, exclaimed the NPR woman. A lot!
The Internet Research Agency (the "Organization") had a budget that reached as much as $1.25M in a month, under the auspices of "Project Lakhta," but it's not clear to me that the Internet Research Agency was exclusively or even mostly US directly. Maybe it was! I haven't read the indictment closely enough to tell, although 10.c ("The ORGANIZATION sought, in part, to conduct what it called 'information warfare against the United States of America'" emphasis added) suggests that budget wasn't specific to the US.
Paragraphs 10 and 11, which introduce the spending figures, look kind of like they've been drafted around specifying the US spend, which could be a tell that the actual US-directed spend is kind of dinky. That's probably reading too much into it, though.
Paragraph 57 alleges the defendants organized rallies protesting the election of Trump.
I am a foreigner.
I comment on US politics.
I have illegally contributed?
I once carried a sign for Pete Wilson in CA. And against certain propositions. Hmm.
RE: Matt:
The post could have been aimed at Muslims - it looks like the defendants targeted Muslim voters.
Pretty sure that's not it in this specific case. The copy of the ad I saw calling Hillary Clinton "a Satan" is a post by the "Army of Jesus" and has a a picture with Jesus armwrestling a devil and saying "Not if I can help it."
Paragraph 57 alleges the defendants organized a North Carolina rally entitled "Charlotte Against Trump."
How long before Israel indicts Obama and the State Department personnel for meddling in the Israeli elections.
buwaya - Yes. You are breaking the law right now, assuming you have spent even a penny on your computer, your electricity, or your Internet access in order to comment here.
1 million a month does not come close to what the UK press spent on its US elections coverage, nearly 100% anti-Trump. Note that all of them had US editions of their web sites.
The UK Guardian, Telegraph, even the Daily Mail.
This is appalling.
Now anytime anyone expresses an opinion the government doesn't like, they can be charged with "sowing political discord."
I can say from personal knowledge that the Russians are old hands at this. They tried for years to create a rift between me and my friend Rocket J. Squirrel. In fact, "Moose is a Satan, and his crimes and lies had proved just how evil he is" appeared on billboards in Frostbite Falls.
The goal of the Russian operation, which was dubbed the “translator project” and began in 2014 with a monthly budget of $1.25 million, was “information warfare against the United States,” the indictment alleges.
Let’s take it a step further. What about illegal aliens?
What about illegal aliens with SS#s?
So what if the Russians did.
Illegals are allowed to vote, hold jobs, agitate/advocate.
And all we have to do is listen to the Mexican president talk.
I always thought Political Discord was the bread and wine of our system of government.
"While Hillary spent $88 million A MONTH during 2016!
Now that’s a lot of spending. One million? A pittance."
Right. But that's what progs have to work with now. The pittance is pitiful, but it's all they got.
Re: Joshua Barker:
Let me retract my earlier comment that there were no pro-Clinton/pro-establishment ads. See paragraph 63: "On or about June 24, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators purchased advertisements on Facebook to promote the 'Support Hillary. Save American Muslims' rally." Same with paragraphs 64 and 65.
so explain to me why the Russians needed to operate this little scheme, if they already had Trump in their pocket?
The lameness of the indictment matches the lameness of the Russian efforts alleged.
But the Russians did succeed, through their interference and via Steele, thanks to progs seizing on the collusion narrative to spy on Trump, delegitimate the incoming admin, and keep the witch hunt going.
The Russians now know they need no collusion. When it comes to sowing discord, progs are eager to do their bidding.
""While Hillary spent $88 million A MONTH during 2016!"
That was a fraction of the true expenditure in untracked and in-kind support such as media coverage, issue-advertising, etc.
1 million a month does not come close to what the UK press spent on its US elections coverage, nearly 100% anti-Trump.
I hope Her Royal Majesty will make room in the Tower for all of them pending their indictment and extradition.
Putin must have got bored after mitigating a CAIR progression in Syria, then Ukraine, and decided to spend a hundred thousand, a million bucks, before Obama inflation, in order to influence housewives, gamers, and virtual oddities.
The NYT and liberal, progressive, and "independent" press persist.
That said, either Trump made a deal with the left and right establishment, or he finally has control of the executive in order to expose the multi-billion dollar taxpayer redistributive change rackets used by the Obama/Clinton/DNC axis, in collusion with foreign and domestic assets, and JournoListic cover-up/lynching, to influence the election before, during, and after the election(s).
1) They spent "thousands of dollars" on advertising. In a multi-billion dollar campaign, that's nothing. But if those thousands of dollars really can sway the election, then traditional media, which make lots of money from campaign advertising, are really in a lot of trouble.
2) They sent tweets. How many? How many tweets are sent on a daily basis overall? I bet the number is minuscule.
3) Their accounts had lots of followers. How many were real people? If I were to create an account to get attention, I'd seed my account with a lot of followers in order to give myself credibility. Lots of those accounts were probably just bots following other bots. It's like when my wife was a waitress. When the restaurant was empty, the boss would send a couple of waitresses out to the tables on the terrace to look like customers. Nobody wants to eat at an empty restaurant.
4) They didn't register as foreign agents. OK, that does sound illegal. When illegal aliens protest in favor of DACA, are they supposed to register as foreign agents too?
5) They were told to target purple states. No shit, Sherlock. If the Russian government was behind this, then they probably knew this already just by reading a newspaper.
6) Some of the actions they supported were anti-Trump, though this appears to be after the election. That supports the notion that their purpose is mainly to create a lack of confidence in our system. They sure are getting their money's worth here, mostly with the help of the Democrats.
It's as though there are two disparate information-universes.
They've indicted 13 Russian nationals. They're not alleging any collusion between any American and Russian operatives. They admit there was no impact on 2016 elections.
Yet, here's how USA Today is playing it:
1. Unknown Trump official contacted
2. More than 100 U.S. people helped
3. Illegal campaign contributions
4. False accounts created
5. Florida Trump official contacted Russians
6. Bragged about their impact
7. Tried to suppress black voters
8. Made false voter fraud claims
I've loved Hillary for 30 years. I love her voice, her money grubbing, her promises to take things away from me for the common good. Then a facebook ad tricked me, and told me Hillary is "a satan" and I changed my mind.
Can we sue the Pro-Democrat media, and indict a majority of them for "sowing political discord." ?
What the Russians did in the last election was brilliant. The ROI was off the scale. They managed to cause a huge amount of discord in the US, for basically pocket change. And then the Democrats added fuel to it.
What the DOJ has done is document that it was done. I don't see much else they can do. It's a marker saying the US sees what Russia did. And it also sends the signal if the US wants too, they can trace it back to the Russian leadership. By doing so, they may have made further Russian actions a bit more potentially costly.
No mention of the Chinese 50 cent army, and their impact on US Internet based discussions.
The idea of trolls being paid by Foreign countries to influence US public opinion I find troubling. I also have issues with US based efforts, such as the echo chamber that Ben Rhodes did, to tilt US public opinion. As well as what Twitter, and other Social Media platforms, are doing to censor conservatives and libertarians. The weaponizing of the term fake news by the left, until Trump made it rebound, is a step on the way to censorship, and not where the US should be going.
This was the best they could come up with as a face-saving exercise?
Best and brightest, my fellow Americans, bestest and brightest.
Two thoughts:
1.) Looking at the Mueller template of criminal charges brought, doesn't this open the door for Sessions to investigate illegal aliens in the US for charges of illegally attempting influencing US elections, likely in collusion with Democrats?
COUNT ONE. Conspiracy to Defraud the United States... conspired to defraud the United States by impairing, obstructing, and defeating the lawful functions of the Federal Election Commission, the US. Department of Justice, and the US. Department of State in administering federal requirements for disclosure of foreign involvement in certain domestic activities.
COUNT TWO. Conspiracy to Commit Wire Fraud and Bank Fraud.
COUNTS THREE THROUGH EIGHT (Aggravated Identity Theft).
2.) If this started in 2014, what did Obama know, when did he know it and what did he do about it -- at least while he thought Hillary would win?
"Best and brightest, my fellow Americans, bestest and brightest."
Top. Men.
Re: JaimeRoberto:
6) Some of the actions they supported were anti-Trump, though this appears to be after the election. That supports the notion that their purpose is mainly to create a lack of confidence in our system. They sure are getting their money's worth here, mostly with the help of the Democrats.
Not entirely after the election -- Paragraph 63-65 talk about June 2016 activities that were facially pro-Hillary. Like everything else, though, they're "pro" Hillary in an extremist way calculated more to sow discord than to actually help the candidate (one of the adverts for a pro-Clinton rally apparently pitches her as a Sharia supporter).
Now anytime anyone expresses an opinion the government doesn't like, they can be charged with "sowing political discord."
Except no one was charged with those “crimes.” All indictments were for ID theft and wire fraud. Penny ante crap.
IF the feds were to charge foreigners for meddling they should start with Steel. Why wasn’t Steele also indicted today?
R/V: "Fry the little fish first."
LOL
The "little fish" are in Russia.
Conveniently so.
My God you are hilariously gullible.
I can't be bothered to take a bite out of this nothing burger. Somebody tell me, does Mr. Mueller think he knows *who* was paying all these Russians? Has his pet DC grand jury indicted the Russian President? What is the protocol for indicting foreign heads of state, anyway? He needs to get after that Xi Jinping guy too.
Top. Men.
... and women. Equal in rights and complementary in Nature.
Re: Jupiter:
I can't be bothered to take a bite out of this nothing burger. Somebody tell me, does Mr. Mueller think he knows *who* was paying all these Russians?
Yes, a Russian restauranteur and caterer with ties to the Kremlin (as in, he literally caters dinners for Putin).
Blogger Ray said...”What the Russians did in the last election was brilliant. The ROI was off the scale. They managed to cause a huge amount of discord in the US, for basically pocket change. And then the Democrats added fuel to it.”
And then the democrats added fuel to the fire? The off the scale ROI came BECAUSE of the behavior of the democrats.
"All indictments were for ID theft and wire fraud."
No, Count One, which covers the bulk of the allegations claims they were guilty of "conspiracy to defraud the United States." Up to five years plus fines.
The same charge was used against Manafort.
Maybe you could make a constitional case out of it, but FEC guidance says no. Foreign nationals are prohibited from making expenditures in connection with US elections.
However, the indictment makes no reference to FEC regulations. The defendants are charged with conspiracy to defraud the United States, but mentions no dollar amount or value. It also charges bank fraud and identity theft.
I was wondering what was illegal, but apparently they made the mistake of spending money, which would run them afoul of campaign finance law, and lied on visa applications.
Just posting content to social media surely can't be illegal? Even if it violates the terms of service.
The statement says the Russians "communicated with 'unwitting individuals' associated with the Trump campaign and other political activists" as TIME has it, which would mean (I think?) that there was no collusion. Or was there "unwitting" collusion?
2/16/18, 2:36 PM
----------------
I read on CTH that the "unwitting" bit refers to a low-level campaign volunteer giving them some pro-Trump yard signs...
seriously...
This has got to be Mueller's attempt to save face and divert from the FBI's total failure in preventing yesterday's shooting...
Mike: Except no one was charged with those “crimes.” All indictments were for ID theft and wire fraud. Penny ante crap.
Shitposting on facebook isn't a felony? Obscene.
I blame NRA lobbyists.
Blogger Marcus said...
Today's announcement was like the opening of Al Capone's vault.
2/16/18, 2:46 PM
Actually they found a few broken bottles in Al Capone's vault.
Here ... after millions of dollars ... they discover Internet trolls!
Or was there "unwitting" collusion?
How does "unwitting" collusion work?
No, Count One, which covers the bulk of the allegations claims they were guilty of "conspiracy to defraud the United States." Up to five years plus fines.
Defraud the U.S. of what?
It raises the question of what Obama did with a hundred million dollars in unmarked credit to influence the election, and Clinton spinning the narrative of Obama's ineligibility for office. These urban tactics seem to be a common cause of the Obama/Clinton/DNC axis, 1% backers, and left-wing activists.
Blogger Quaestor said...
Maybe you could make a constitional case out of it, but FEC guidance says no. Foreign nationals are prohibited from making expenditures in connection with US elections
Time to indict a whole bunch of illegal aliens me thinks ...
Quaestor: "How does "unwitting" collusion work?"
Collusion is not a crime. In any event, it didn't happen.
So, to summarize, the lefties are left (pun intended) with declaring that there was "unwitting" participation in a non-crime.
Unwitting participation in non-crimes.
That sums up the lefties perfectly.
Perfectly.
And then the democrats added fuel to the fire?
Burned a few witches and warlocks, then held a roast to celebrate social/political progress at Planned Parenthood corporate headquarters.
Aren't illegal aliens who participate in rallies in the US for political purposes breaking our law?
This has got to be Mueller's attempt to save face and divert from the FBI's total failure in preventing yesterday's shooting...
Bingo!
The Russians will unwittingly collude with this bullshit by not appearing in court.
I thought I read in Mexico there's a law that foreigners can't protest the government, only citizens.
Aren't illegal aliens who participate in rallies in the US for political purposes breaking our law?
They're sowing political discord, that for certain.
"Disinformation" by Pacepa and Rychlak is Pacepa's account of Russia's strategy to disrupt us on several fronts. He is the highest ranking intelligence officer to defect, a lt. general.
Over the years Russian defectors have reiterated this strategy. Russians could not have expected Trump to win. Who did? They just screw with everybody. Hence the pro-Trump and anti-Trump rallies after the election. Disinformation is what they do.
Democrats are simply too political and too ignorant to understand.
Other defectors disclosed the infusion of propaganda into the American education system - big surprise.
Kabuki
Arrests are expected circa. 2050. Trials never.
The FBI is not covering itself with glory right now.
Ruby Ridge, Cruz, this dossier and Rantburg linked to a story in Oregon that the FBI asked a SWAT team to not use their cameras on their vests and the FBI filmed the crime site from the sky, if I understood that right.
@Packer-Bronco
That part of my comment in italics was Balfegor's work.
Plus it seems the Flynn debacle.
This seems really pathetic. This is the best the Russkies could do?
Back in the 40's they not only influenced elections, they got agents into positions of power with access to top secret info that they sent back to Russia.
They even (maybe, maybe not) got their very own agent elected Vice President.
And now we are complaining about some Facebag ads? That's the best they can do?
Oh how the mighty are fallen.
John Henry
If this is the extent of Russian meddling in the 2016 election, it’s small potatoes to the FBI/DOJ meddling in same.
RE: Quaestor:
However, the indictment makes no reference to FEC regulations.
Yes it does -- see paragraph 25, a little ways into Count 1.
The defendants are charged with conspiracy to defraud the United States, but mentions no dollar amount or value. It also charges bank fraud and identity theft.
You're correct -- I'm not sure whether the underlying FECA and FARA (registration of foreign agents) violations are criminal, though. They might just be civil. Don't know enough to say.
"Defraud the U.S. of what?"
An explanation, if you're interested.
"On or about November 3, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used the ORGANIZATION-controlled Instagram account "Blacktivist" that read in part: 'Choose peace and vote for Jill Stein. Trust me, it's not a wasted vote.'"
R/V, Inga, Ritmo. Hook, line, sinker.
Useful idiots or True Believers.
"On or about November 3, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used the ORGANIZATION-controlled Instagram account "Blacktivist" that read in part: 'Choose peace and vote for Jill Stein. Trust me, it's not a wasted vote.'"
Washington Post's blurb under its headline -- Defendants acted "to support candidate Donald Trump and attack his political opponent, Hillary Clinton."
Paragraph 43 alleges that the defendants engaged in actions to support Bernie Sanders
Anyone who wants to continue saying this has anything to do with Trump colluding with the Russians is arguing Bernie was equally as treasonous and should be similarly charged.
”On or about November 3, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used the ORGANIZATION-controlled Instagram account "Blacktivist" that read in part: 'Choose peace and vote for Jill Stein. Trust me, it's not a wasted vote.'”
Seriously? THIS is the meddling the 17 intelligence agencies (I know, I know) testified to???? Brennan, Clapper et al. should be ashamed.
Does this mean Mueller will close up shop and go away? What's left for him to investgation now that Rosenstein has acknowledged that no Americans were involved in a culpable way?
My guess is that Mueller is trying to get something on the record that the left can spin (Rooskies! Rooskies!) before the real sheet hits the fan with the IG report.
Where are the usual suspects? Constantly hitting refresh on their browsers hoping for a fresh download of Schiff's talking points?
Just think, next week the Democrat's memo on Carter Page should come out.
Or will they quietly pull it back to save themselves the embarrassment?
I hope Mueller examines drunk, British, ex-spy, Christopher Steele's anonymous Russian sources in his bullshit dossier with a similar scrutiny.
Who knows what type of discord those Rooskies were trying to sow.......
Blogger Jersey Fled said...”My guess is that Mueller is trying to get something on the record that the left can spin (Rooskies! Rooskies!) before the real sheet hits the fan with the IG report.”
I agree.
So when will the left start demanding Bernie be indicted for collusion? 12th of Never, I assume.
Dem spin:
Yeah, the FBI tried to get Hillary elected by whitewashing the e-mail server investigation, but those Rooskies were helping Trump!
Even if they did exactly what is claimed, it is not a crime. "Defraud the united States"? Really? What part of the penal code is that? You can't claim someone needs to register as a foreign lobbyist in order to put ads on the internet. That is only for lobbying the government. If this is how low their standard is then George Soros (Austrian citizen?) is in big trouble.
Oh, and we can have Radio Free Europe for 70 yrs, Obama can meddle in Brexit, and we can literally arrest a dictator in a foreign country (Manuel Ortega in Panama) and it is all Kosher (can I say Kosher? Is that appropriation?)
@Balfegor (4:09 pm): Do you mean to say that the Russians' claim that Hillary! is a "Sharia supporter" is untrue? Darn! I wasted my vote for her.
Does this mean Mueller will close up shop and go away? What's left for him to investgation now that Rosenstein has acknowledged that no Americans were involved in a culpable way?
Has he acknowledged this specific thing?
There's no reason to think this is all there is, but there's no way to know, what, if anything, is coming.
Mueller doesn't leak. No use speculating. We'll find out when the investigation is over.
I can easily envision the Russian government surreptitiously retaining lawyers to continue to wreak havoc by mounting a vigorous defense of the charges.
Adam Schiff: [Narrating while driving Knish's truck and making deliveries for him] you don't hear much about guys who take their shot and miss, I'll tell you what happens to them: they end up humping crappy jobs on grave yard shifts, trying to figure out how they came up short. I had an picture in my head of me sitting at the big table, Hillary sitting to my left Barack Obama to my right, playing in The World Series Of Politics and I let that vision blind me at the table against DJT. Now the closest I get to the White House is West Glendale, driving down this lousy route from Knish to rounders who forgot the cardinal fucking rule: always leave yourself an out.
etbass said...
"This is not answered in the indictment but I can't figure out why Russia would support Trump when it was pretty clear that they had the Clintons in their pocket?"
This is the perspective shared by most sane people. As such it has no place in the thinking of the DNC/MSM and perhaps the FBI.
I guess a whole lotta illegal aliens are eligible for indictment. FBI best be getting busy!
Have we reached peak government incompetence yet? Because if this is not it, it’s hard to imagine what the bottom of the barrel will look like.
While Hillary spent $88 million A MONTH during 2016!
With the non-stop ads, I think she spent that much the last month in Michigan alone.
Luckily, that Russian facebook ad I didn't see talked me out of voting for her.
wwww: "Does this mean Mueller will close up shop and go away? What's left for him to investgation now that Rosenstein has acknowledged that no Americans were involved in a culpable way?"
Nonsense!
In fact, Mueller's Team of Super-Upright and Ethical Dem Hacks has already leaked to Bloomberg that this definitely does not prove Trump or his campaign didn't do something wrong.
Therefore, as designed, the no-underlying crime, counter-intelligence effort to create dirt on Trump can literally continue for the entirety of Trump's 4 or 8 year term of office.
It's apparently a crime for Russians to "sow political discord" in the US. Is it a crime for (say) the "Resistance", the DNC, the Pussyhat brigade, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Huffington Post, the Democratic leadership in Congress, ABC News, et al., to "sow political discord" in the US?
No, it isn't. But when they do it, should they be named and shamed?
Mark: "I can easily envision the Russian government surreptitiously retaining lawyers to continue to wreak havoc by mounting a vigorous defense of the charges."
The Russians should hire Dershowitz who, no doubt, would love to blow this over-reach charade by the democrat/establishment hacks out of the water.
The FBI started out, and lived the last 75 years as a Federal Secret maintaining imitation Police whose only profession was the covering up the Cover Ups of Government insiders while the USA was systematically looted by those insider Uniparty thieves. It finally got so bad that when Obama and Clinton planned to merge the USA into a Global Government with no hint of a Constitution left, the Military called in Trump to save us.
That is all the FBIs ever were. A gang of trained con men with a blackmail specialty.
Disband it now!
I'm going to try to be serious for a minute. The Comey investigation wasn't originally supposed to be a criminal investigation but an intelligence investigation about possible Russian interference in the 2016 Presidential election. I thought that's what was supposed to be passed on to Mueller. What Mueller has now reported are trivial crimes, but they may have serious foreign policy implications. Did the Russian government try to interfere in a US election? If so, the President must decide what sort of sanctions, if any, are appropriate?
So the President should call Mueller into his office and require a complete briefing on what Mueller has turned up, so that the President can decide what, if any, actions the US should take vis-a-vis Russia.
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