"You don’t need me to explain why," WaPo columnist Ruth Marcus says. "But it is possible to imagine her thinking process: If I can this guy for doing way less than my own husband did with a subordinate in his workplace, how’s that going to look? Well, Clinton erred in the other direction, and that’s not looking so good now, is it? And classically, infuriatingly, this episode and its aftermath exposes, once again, the trademark Clinton failure to take personal responsibility; the allergy to owning up to error; the refusal to cede any ground, no less apologize; the incessant double-standarding, with different, more forgiving rules for the Clintons and their loyalists. Imagine a Hillary Clinton who said something like this. [Imagined speech omitted.] Imagine that Hillary Clinton. She doesn’t exist."
And I think I can extrapolate: If Hillary were President, the #MeToo movement would not exist.
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103 comments:
#Agree
Marcus is assuming what sexual harassment is a public problem, which it is not.
It's taken on that aura in an estrogen cloud, is all.
It's a one-on-one problem. Deal with it yourselves.
So Hillary was right, on this one. Common sense is so rare in women.
...and yet just a few short months ago there were all those people shaming me because I wasn't supporting her.
I've become suspicious of shaming.
Another bad decision by the woman who wanted to be president.
But who can be surprised? She’s a corrupt idiot.
"the trademark ... failure to take personal responsibility; the allergy to owning up to error; the refusal to cede any ground, no less apologize; the incessant double-standarding, with different, more forgiving rules for ... their loyalists."
Not sure how this is different from the rest of the Democrats.
...the refusal to cede any ground, no less apologize...
The Thomasons taught the Clintons to never apologize for anything. It worked pretty well for them.
The easy solution would be to dump Hillary off on an ice floe bound for The Island of Misfit Politicians, she and Jeb could wine all day that money just doesn't buy what it used to. Their are plenty of fish in the sea, Democrats, and she doesn't have a personal right to be POTUS.
YES "wine" not "whine"
Hillary Clinton is still not President.
Aahhhhhhhhhh.
Total agreement about #MeToo. Paradoxically, the election of Trump was the best thing to happen for women in a long time.
Imagine a WAPO that holds the Clintons responsible. Imagine that WAPO. It doesn't exist.
Clinton scandals die in darkness.
"And classically, infuriatingly, this episode and its aftermath exposes, once again, the trademark Clinton failure to take personal responsibility; the allergy to owning up to error; the refusal to cede any ground, no less apologize; the incessant double-standarding, with different, more forgiving rules for the Clintons and their loyalists. Imagine a Hillary Clinton who said something like this. [Imagined speech omitted.] Imagine that Hillary Clinton. She doesn’t exist."
Why should she? The whole of the left doesn't require it. What proof? Substitute "Obama" for "Clinton" in that paragraph.
Still works.
The murderer was in an extremely awkward place having bloody hands, standing next to a knife over the body as the police walked in.
"Do as I say, not as I do," she said.
Hypocritical pieces of shit, the left is.
Sometimes I wonder how Hillary really feels about men. They are always putting her in a tough spot, and she doesn't even get laid. I thought Carlos Danger would be her last embarrassment, but now her spiritual advisor makes an appearance. Who will rid her of her awful men?
The reason people are so loyal to her is that they cannot let us win, too psychically costly.
And I think I can extrapolate: If Hillary were President, the #MeToo movement would not exist.
of course not. The whole point was to drive Trump from office.
That's just crazy talk, Tim
"If Hillary were President, the #MeToo movement would not exist."
And neither would a robust economy, stock market, tax reform, lower individual tax rates, repatriating corporate earnings, and many other positive developments.
But what we mostly definitely would have is an even more unbalanced North Korea.
"She told a campaign official that Mr. Strider had rubbed her shoulders inappropriately, kissed her on the forehead and sent her a string of suggestive emails."
"Like you would be dismayed if this happened to your daughter? No, you would — well I would, or I would want to, anyway — rip the guy’s head off."
Geez, I'm a fiercely protective dad but I don't think even I'd rip a guy's head off for that. For rape? Sure. For unsought shoulder rubs, uninvited kisses, and creepy e-mails? Pretty sure I'd settle for decking the guy, and having a little talk with him when he came to.
Except I don't expect to need to. I think if this happened to my daughter my role would be to help her hire an excellent lawyer to fight her dismissal for the assault she committed against him, when he took liberties after she told him with freezing menace not to try that shit again.
(She's little now, but I intend to ensure she has the skills and the confidence to do just that.)
Dave Begley above got it just two thirds right. Hillary is a corrupt idiot. But more correctly she is a lying corrupt idiiot.
Lying tends to rub off on the people around you. I don't know whether it rubbed off Hillary to Bill ["I did not have sex with that woman."} or it went the other way. That said, lay down with lying dogs, get up with fleas.
When Obama was President, the #MeToo movement did not exist. Perhaps 42 is a cosmic magic number.
The world that feminists imagine, where men and women spend long hours working together, with no sexual exploitation, has never existed in all of human history.
I'll go further and say that even same-sex workplaces can only be free of sexual exploitation when there are strong taboos on homosexuality.
Human beings tend to objectify other human beings and use them tools to achieve whatever it is that they want. This is true for both men and women.
A good man does not force himself on a woman if she is not interested, but men pursuing reluctant women is a common theme in human history. A man can misread signals, and he certainly cannot be responsible for sending signals that are misunderstood.
If I set up a Private Server in order to hide the millions flowing into my family foundation, much of which is from Russia, how's that going to look?
Oh yeah - the media will cover for me.
42 in the hitchhiker's galaxy. 45 in this one.
Doesn’t this look like a sanctioned Throw Under The Bus? How wonderful. The Clintons might be done.
Era of Trump ... America gets a colonic or The Great Cleansing.
When it comes to choosing between integrity and power, the Clintons always choose power. I suppose that many of their admirers are guilty of the same thing.
How that compares to Trump I don't know. Trump seems to live on different psychological planet than the Clintons & just about everyone else.
It is absolutely Thrilling that "America" has proven it actually works.
Despite the might of our authoritarian, supremacist, By-Any-Means-Necessary BigBlueGovernment news conglomerates & corruptocrats, Sound Government was fairly elected, power is being redistributed, and a healing correction is underway.
I pray young people wake up to the monstrosity of propaganda they have been suckling on.
Gleichshaltungers, go to Hell.
And I think I can extrapolate: If Hillary were President, the #MeToo movement would not exist.
Exactly. The political left is doing exactly what they're claiming to be angry for Clinton doing complete with sanctimonious lecturing of others and trying to turn it to political advantage.
You are right. No Metoo#.
With Hillary the Corrupt as president, Harvey Weinstein would still be a major Democrat donor, intimidating young actresses with sexual depravity and career ending blackmail.
Cool!
/wow did we dodge a bullet.
Imagine the Dems would've said to Hillary: you had your chance in 08, time for someone else (another woman?). But they all rolled over for her
but but but... Trump said "grab em' by the pussy!" Still much worse that Bill's life-long list of sexual assault.
#Theyallknew
Including, and especially, Hillary.
It is as Dr Glenn Reynolds said. If you want the media to do their job, make sure you have a republican in the White House. The media's blatant partisanship and open efforts to overthrow our POTUS just highlight this fact more.
As soon as a member of their party is elected, they become more subtle propagandists.
The current democrat-media is a full blown arm of the democrat party. First response to any of their charges against republicans should always be "bullshit, prove it".
The Times: "She told a campaign official that Mr. Strider had rubbed her shoulders inappropriately, kissed her on the forehead and sent her a string of suggestive emails.”
Depending on what pushes a possibly close quarters campaign office shoulder rub into "inappropriate" territory (with a kiss on the forehead) or a "string" of "suggestive" emails, you could put Strider's conduct any where along a wide spectrum of severity and pervasiveness.
Notice what are the Clintonistas, the NYT and Marcus doing here. If they are glossing over the true egregiousness of Strider's actual conduct to make Hillary's decision sound at least reasonable, they are also ratcheting down the standard that whould be applied to all others in the future.
Even the under the bus-toss is a soft landing for the D press.
We only have one point on the HRC punishment scale. Consensual sex acts with a subordinate - lots of screaming and a vase thrown at you.
classically, infuriatingly, this episode and its aftermath exposes, once again, the trademark Clinton failure to take personal responsibility; the allergy to owning up to error; the refusal to cede any ground, no less apologize; the incessant double-standarding, with different, more forgiving rules for the Clintons and their loyalists
And this (and more) is what put Trump over the top to elect him. And it's not only Hillary. It's the entire culture of the Democrat Party, progressive left. And that's why they could NEVER be allowed anywhere near government power.
If Hillary Clinton were President, Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell would be running the #MeToo movement.
When is Shakespeare in the Park going to produce Macbeth?
Ha ha ha! Just kidding.
Shorter Hillary: “Out, out, Damned spot!”
"I think I can extrapolate: If Hillary were President, the #MeToo movement would not exist."
Ron said the same thing just about 16 hours ago
Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...
/wow did we dodge a bullet.
Grin!
Yes, Ma'am
And No One Else among us all, no one else
could have kept the Ship Of State
from going full-steam over the Niagara
of exponential GovtMediaState corruption
Wayyyyyup Down into the deep, Serene Cesspool:
The above-the-law Police state of a Clinton Dynasty.
Nobody Else But Mr. Trump, g*d bless and glory Be,
we did dodge a bullet.
Well, Ms. Althouse is 100% correct because...where was Ruth Marcus 2 years ago?
Reading Ruth Marcus's imagined speech in the linked article makes me think Hillary might have invested wisely had she hired Marcus as speech writer.
But Marcus shows that such wisdom is above Hillary's pay grade.
The founders of this country tried to organize a government that took account of human frailties. The political and social left seems determine to create a society which conquers human frailties. That effort leads them to bang their heads against the wall of human reality. Hillary the ruthless, conniving politician is in stark contrast to Hillary the righteous, dreamy idealist. She can't square that circle. No one can. It leaves people deeply suspicious of her.
There was a Ruth Marcus at Yale, a logician. She was big on tags.
@Lem, lots of people have been saying that ever since the #MeToo movement started.
And I agree with Paco, Curious George, and Mark.
But I especially agree with gspencer.
Getting a little tired of the "poor Hillary" meme.
where was Ruth Marcus 2 years ago?
She was an opinion writer at the Washington Post, same as now. Also same as 2008, when she was informing the rest of the feminist movement that Sarah Palin was "Not our kind, dear," with an audible sniff.
Sometimes I think that a merciful God is allowing Hillary Clinton to serve some of her time in purgatory concurrently with the declining years of her mortal life.
The rest of us are probably going to get more purgatorial hard-time for getting so much merriment out of it.
"I think I can extrapolate: If Hillary were President, the #MeToo movement would not exist."
Hillary was really the conservative choice in 2016. Had she won, the Confederate statues would have stood unchallenged, the Campus Inquisition of young, college men would have continued, and some powerful, "accomplished" men would still be abusing women.
"And classically, infuriatingly, this episode and its aftermath exposes, once again, the trademark Clinton failure to take personal responsibility; the allergy to owning up to error; the refusal to cede any ground, no less apologize; the incessant double-standarding, with different, more forgiving rules for the Clintons and their loyalists."
This isn't quite right.
"And classically, infuriatingly, this episode and its aftermath exposes, once again, the trademark DEMOCRAT failure to take personal responsibility; the allergy to owning up to error; the refusal to cede any ground, no less apologize; the incessant double-standarding, with different, more forgiving rules for the DEMOCRATS and their loyalists."
FIFY
rh: It's a one-on-one problem. Deal with it yourselves.
If you could clear up your misapprehension that the "private sphere" encompasses nothing but one individual negotiating a contract with another individual in a cultural vacuum, you might finally be able to make some progress with this chain of thought - instead of grinding away in second gear, post after post.
From what I see, many of my liberal friends - actually democrats who think themselves smart - think HRC should have been elected because it was time and she was for all the right things and the media loved her, Hollywood loved her, Ellen loved her. The same basic logic that elected Obama. She lost, in spite of that advantage, because she's transparently corrupt and a lousy candidate.
They "think" they are smart.
f you could clear up your misapprehension that the "private sphere" encompasses nothing but one individual negotiating a contract with another individual in a cultural vacuum, you might finally be able to make some progress with this chain of thought - instead of grinding away in second gear, post after post.
The culture is in the contract, if you want it to be. "Let me alone. I'm a feminist."
Contracts are as general as it gets.
"where was Ruth Marcus 2 years ago?"
Where is #IngaKnew now?
MadisonMan wrote: Paradoxically, the election of Trump was the best thing to happen for women in a long time.
Not sure I agree. Now a lot of men will be reluctant to make the first move. Some women will wonder why.
“She told a campaign official that Mr. Strider had rubbed her shoulders inappropriately, kissed her on the forehead and sent her a string of suggestive emails.”
"I suggest we go bowling!"
This trivia occurred nine years ago? That's Hillarious.
"Marcus is assuming what sexual harassment is a public problem, which it is not."
Depends on the situation.
Sexual Harassment in the workplace is a PUBLIC problem.
People have a right to get promotions and jobs based on merit - not on their sexual servicing of "the boss".
And then there are the others who didn't get the job because "The Boss" decided to promote the girl -who put out.
If you want the media to do their job, make sure you have a republican in the White House.
Seems they don't do their job either way. If a Dem is in office, smother the truth with a pillow. If a Republican is in office, make up a hundred ways to label him a Nazi, racist, white supremacist, misogynist.
I have a strange mixture of disgust and pity for Hillary Clinton. Also, a combination of surprise and relief.
The disgust is that she is clearly dishonest, power driven, greedy, entitled, and immoral.
The pity is that she is so clearly miscast as a politician and has been the subject of such scorn and ridicule in her pursuit of political power.
The surprise is that such a flawed person came so close to the presidency and the relief is that she was so flawed she blew two layups at becoming president. The D's tried to hand her the 2008 nomination in a year any D would have won and then the R's tried to hand her the presidency by nominating Trump. She was sufficiently flawed and incompetent to lose both times.
Ruth Marcus is the usual fraud. She'll attack the Clinton's NOW - after they're no longer of much value to the Democrats.
But when it counted - she was a Clintonista.
Sexual Harassment in the workplace is a PUBLIC problem.
People have a right to get promotions and jobs based on merit - not on their sexual servicing of "the boss".
And then there are the others who didn't get the job because "The Boss" decided to promote the girl -who put out
Work someplace else. Tell the boss's boss. Tell his wife. Tell his girlfriend. So many options, all traditional.
Use tact. Refuse in a way that makes the boss feel good about himself. It's not hard.
Or put out, if you want to advance. You've got an advantage over ugly women.
So many choices.
Why is it public.
BTW, I have ZERO sympathy for Hillary.
I just read her book - or I should say Read/skimmed through her book. Its dull, badly written, and reflects badly on her.
Why should I have sympathy for a powerful person who's always looked out for No. 1, and used her political position to earn $MILLIONS through corruption and selling of political favors.
When has she shown ANY sympathy for the average, hard working person - other than some meaningless blather about "racism"?
Standing up to a boss is really easy. I've done it countless times.
I read a blurb saying Franco, the actor, was "in a bad place".
It must be perplexing that a heretofore recognizably famous and good looking actor stands accused of sexual harassment.
Franco was digitally erased from a Vanity Fair magazine cover.
Was Franco chosen to make a point?
I realize I'm sounding like a conspiracy theorist... but there are people in charge of this "movement" and people with money backing it up.
"think HRC should have been elected because it was time and she was for all the right things and the media loved her, Hollywood loved her, Ellen loved her. The same basic logic that elected Obama. She lost, in spite of that advantage, because she's transparently corrupt and a lousy candidate."
Rick Wilson is correct. Democrats tend to be horrible at politics. They're a mess at figuring it out.
Now, there are a lot of people who voted Democratic who can see this. A bunch of people tried to get Bernie Sanders as the nominee, and some of that energy was about getting HC out. Others strongly preferred Biden, or anyone, anyone who was not H Clinton.
Clintons had taken over the party, and these other forces did not have the numbers, will, power, or the organization to get new blood to replace that old dynasty.
Part of the problem, and this exists for both parties, is that moderates aren't interested in joining either party. Ordinary people do not identify with the partisanship or strict ideologies. Independents do not want to strongly identify with either party. As a result, the bases are much more partisan. That partisanship turns normal people off. That same partisanship blinded the Democrats into thinking HRC was a good candidate.
PS
One also could feel disgust and pity at her obvious effort to figure out if there is a way to secure the D nomination in 2020.
I think even she ultimately will see the futility, but on the other hand, Clintons do not give up. Also, perhaps we are in for one more episode of surprise and relief.
Plus, if she throws in the towel and loses the nomination, we then have the threat of who becomes the next D nominee and, in our ultimate binary choice for president, how that person (likely to be awful in her own way) could become president.
It will be fun to watch in 2019, or sooner, how the Democrats try and rid themselves of this woman, Hillary. Can they? How hard will they try?
And classically, infuriatingly, this episode and its aftermath exposes, once again, the trademark Clinton failure to take personal responsibility; the allergy to owning up to error; the refusal to cede any ground, no less apologize; the incessant double-standarding, with different, more forgiving rules for the Clintons and their loyalists.
I think it illustrates something about the Clinton machine.
The Clintons want what they want. They don't care about the details, and they're used to stonewalling outside criticism.
They want $100,000? Sure, yeah, cattle futures. Go ahead.
They want $100 Million? Sure, yeah, uranium. Go ahead.
Hillary want to get elected? Sure, yeah, sexual harassment. Just do your thing and keep on with the advising.
Zach is correct that the Clintons are relentless in going after what they want.
Also, their level of success is absolutely remarkable - Bill becoming president, both becoming rich through thievery in plain sight, and H's partial success as a politician. I think Hillary's "deplorables" comment is what caused her to lose. And that it was the perfect cause.
There are many remarkable success stories in American politics (including Obama and Trump), but the Clinton story may be the most remarkable of all.
"Let me alone. I'm a feminist."
Trump's answer to Piers Morgan was exquisite.
"President Trump has declared he is NOT a feminist.
He tells me: ‘No, I wouldn't say I'm a feminist. I mean, I think that would be, maybe, going too far. I'm for women, I'm for men, I’m for everyone.'
Full interview, Sunday, ITV, 10pm."
The D's tried to hand her the 2008 nomination in a year any D would have won and then the R's tried to hand her the presidency by nominating Trump. She was sufficiently flawed and incompetent to lose both times.
You are missing something important. It was baby boomer white women who tried to hand her the nomination in 2008. It was fought pretty hard by a good portion of people who wanted anyone but Clinton. They would have gone with Dodd, or Biden or Obama, or anyone.
Now, there's another shift happening. It's generational. The baby boomer white women do not have the same power in the party because of a generational shift. For years boomers dominated the political scene as the largest voting block. They're decreasing and millennials are increasing. Millennials are about 18-34 right now, but they're numerically larger then Boomers. We all know 18 year olds don't vote. As the Millennials age upwards, they'll vote in increasingly large numbers. It'll happen fast as they move from their 20s to their 30s and 40s. Three years from now, they'll be voting in much greater numbers then they did in 2016.
The tendency is going to be to think everything will stay the same, politically, for the next 4-8-12 years. For older people, 4 or 8 years is a blink of the eye. For teenagers and 20-somethings and 30 somethings, 8 years is a big life shift.
It's going to change as Boomers age out and Millennials age in. My 2 cents, both parties will re-align. I have no idea what they'll look like 12 years from now, but I think they'll both look significantly different from 2016.
Hillary Clinton not only forgave her husband's predations, she enabled them and participated in shaming his accusers. Accordingly, if #MeToo were applied honestly, she would be held responsible for the harm she caused to women. Instead, though we've heard that the reckoning has reached Bill, it hasn't prevented him from being an honored figure on the left, and it certainly hasn't reached Saint Hillary. Go figure.
"President Trump has declared he is NOT a feminist.
He tells me: ‘No, I wouldn't say I'm a feminist. I mean, I think that would be, maybe, going too far. I'm for women, I'm for men, I’m for everyone.'
I'm not a feminist because I don't believe there is such a thing as "lesbian epistemology". I'd never say that in public in a press interview because it would get turned into that I'm against lesbian episiotomies, & that I'm the sort of cruel, merciless bastard who wants innocent lesbians to suffer more than het-women in the travails of childbirth.
Which just isn't true, in any epistemology.
It remains to be seen whether those who bought Hillary are ready to write off that investment and bankroll another run. It looks to me that it would be throwing good money after bad. BTW it would not surprise me if Trump chose not to run in 2020. He's made his point, and doesn't need the hassle.
“And I think I can extrapolate: If Hillary were President, the #MeToo movement would not exist.”
And Harvey, John, Charlie, and all the rest of the serial lefty abusers would be safely behind the curtain getting their ashes hauled.
The D's tried to hand her the 2008 nomination in a year any D would have won and then the R's tried to hand her the presidency by nominating Trump. She was sufficiently flawed and incompetent to lose both times.
I think it's simpler than that. A political machine needs a candidate. It doesn't need a good candidate, and it doesn't even necessarily need an office holder. But it needs someone to be out front who can credibly run for an office and who has to be accounted for.
Hillary wouldn't be your first choice as a candidate -- her own first choice was Bill! But while the Kennedys had lots of brothers of nicely stepped ages, Bill was an only child. So they went with what they had, and Hillary was it.
By all accounts, Hillary was effective in adding some discipline to Bill's charm. But the band changes when you change the lead singer, and she was never an effective candidate in her own right.
As Hillary ages out of being a credible candidate, the temptation will arise to make Chelsea the new candidate. That temptation should be avoided.
The old style political machines were centered around parties. They had office holders and patronage to keep the money coming in. The new style political machines are centered around candidates. They have to find some way of paying everybody during the lulls when the candidate doesn't hold office. That's where the Clinton Foundation and all the Wall Street speeches came in.
No candidate equals no money equals no more machine. So if you want to use the machine in the future, you have to have a candidate now, whether she's a good candidate or not.
@tcrosse,
It remains to be seen whether those who bought Hillary are ready to write off that investment and bankroll another run. It looks to me that it would be throwing good money after bad.
It was a seriously under-explored fallout from the 2016 election just how seriously burned Democratic donors were in 2016. Remember, HRC raised somewhere between $1 to $1.2 billion! That's an awful lot of money to flush down the toilet. An awful lot. Some of HRC's lieutenants tried to get back on the horse immediately after the election, just to try & keep the money men in line, but they failed miserably.
I think what will ultimately doom any HRC come-back is that the Democratic donor base is done with her. She's known as someone who's incapable of changing her ways & she's rigid in battle. She's lost twice. Hell, she even lost when the election when it was as close to rigged for her as it can be in the American electoral system!
From the view-point of the money guys, it's time for fresh blood. They want the next Barack Obama.
I just noticed this part of Marcus' screed when someone above quote it:
"the incessant double-standarding, with different, more forgiving rules for the Clintons and their loyalists (emphasis added- Y.W.)"
Ruth Marcus is trying to make you believe that she wasn't included as a Clinton loyalist. Hilarious.
Imagine the Faith Advisor knew all the skeletons and ghosts in the Clinton closet that would be let out to burst her fantasy of clinching the WH?
Imagine how one may get a job as faith advisor? What faith? Faith in her invincibility or faith in the advisor? Something made Hillary hire this guy and pay him lots of other people's money to keep his mouth shut. What is that something?
Yancey Ward: "Well, Ms. Althouse is 100% correct because...where was Ruth Marcus 2 years ago?"
2 years ago Ruth Marcus was passionately "With Her".
But, like any good leftist, its time to airbrush history.
rh: The culture is in the contract, if you want it to be.
There's no such thing as an individual culture, created at will. A belief in the existence of temporary shared cultures created on the fly by two individuals each in the possession of an isolated personal culture, for the purposes of negotiating contracts, is just you hallucinating libertarian unicorns where other things are going on.
Angel-Dyne said...
rh: The culture is in the contract, if you want it to be.
There's no such thing as an individual culture, created at will. A belief in the existence of temporary shared cultures created on the fly by two individuals each in the possession of an isolated personal culture, for the purposes of negotiating contracts, is just you hallucinating libertarian unicorns where other things are going on.
rhhardin makes specific points about how to deal with these situations. If a woman objects to how she is being treated she has numerous options. He gives them agency.
In 99% of America if you tell everyone in the office that a manager is giving a woman special treatment because she is servicing him, and it is actually true, it will end badly for that manager and the woman. In the long(not so long) run a private company that gives promotions for blow jobs/sex will not do well.
What is it that you specifically disagree about? What is the collectivist solution to harassment that you are arguing for? Do you feel like a tool? The only places where mistreatment was systematic was in systems dominated by collectivist thought. Hollywood. DC.
I don't see the #metoo movement or women in general doing anything other than a mindless mob action running in front of the prods of amoral agitators who were not long ago covering for these same predators.
I don't think people are noticing that #metoo is covering for the bad behavior of men and women in power.
Unexpectedly.
The culture affects what you think is good for you and what isn't. You get to choose.
One on one always takes both sides' choices into account, where the culture doesn't.
When the culture takes over, e.g. the estrogen vapors running the media discussions, you don't get what a woman might want, men expressing an interest in them from time to time.
It's not accommodating women's choices at all even though of course it bills itself as pro-woman.
Because it's one size fits all. And the ones are all different.
Interesting discussion.
I have a different recollection than wwww about 2008 D nomination. It was not baby boomer white women so much as the democratic establishment and Clinton/democratic machine. I think H and her people seriously underestimated Obama. Edwards also complicated things to Hillary's disadvantage (I think). Hillary had a billion dollars and somehow did not find Reverend White's videos that he sold in the church lobby. And did not plan for later states. Extreme incompetence.
I think you are correct that the parties, and especially presidential nominees, my look much different 12 years from now. But it is not so much people in 20's now then being in their 30's. Political observers like yourself make the mistake of not taking into account that people change as they age and, for example, strident Bernie supporters in their 20's might be something very different 12 years from now.
Zach is correct about the power of the D machine and about what a disaster it would be to move on to Chelsea. She is even more incompetent than her mother and it is so obvious that the machine will move on to someone else.
Rhhardin: "Zach is correct about the power of the D machine and about what a disaster it would be to move on to Chelsea. She is even more incompetent than her mother and it is so obvious that the machine will move on to someone else."
The Clintons will absolutely move to position Chelsea in the next wave. The Clintons will absolutely do whatever they want within the dem party to try and set Hillary up for 2020.
And in the end, the dem voters will do precisely as they are told. Just as Bernie Sanders went into Mini-Me mode when Hillary directed him to let go of the email abuses.
Which was not surprising in the least. Any moron like Sanders who so adored the Soviet Union in the 70's when everyone knew the truth about Soviet oppression is always happy to take direction from The Central Office.
The political and social left seems determine to create a society which conquers human frailties.
Not quite. They are more determined to create a society which creates a new humanity, a human which has progressed beyond the old, together with a truth that has progressed beyond. They are in pursuit of the perfectibility of a new human, a creation of their own making, to go with their smart society. Except that we all know how these utopias end up being hell-holes.
Achilles: What is it that you specifically disagree about?
On a more trivial level, the inability to make distinctions in "expressions of male interest", and that "private negotiating" is the best response to any and all such expressions. (By your leave, my lady, may I rub one out in your presence? Lol.)
More generally, the idea that "the private sphere" is up, running, and fully functional, so the dysfunction exemplified by the #metoo mænads is merely a matter of sexual relations going askew because women are dingbats and fail to make the proper distinction between private and public/legal.
He mistakes "media culture" (about which he's quite funny and perceptive; "soap opera women" is a great meme) for a shared (now disintegrated) culture that is the sine qua non for the "private negotiations" he's always banging on about. He makes the same fundamental mistake about other issues - "we just need to get everybody to sign on to the (explicit) rules, and then we can just merrily carry on negotiating everything individually, la la la."
He's correct that "the private sphere" should be where these issues are handled, but, in typical spergitarian fashion, hasn't figured out that that private sphere of tacit shared values isn't there anymore.
He gives them agency.
Achilles, how long have you and I been posting here? Long enough, I would think, that I could dilate on a subject at Level 2 without wildly off-the-mark assumptions being made about my opinions on matters pertinent to a Level 1 discussion. I don't criticize rh for grinding his gears because I disagree that these women are moral agents.
I don't see the #metoo movement or women in general doing anything other than a mindless mob action running in front of the prods of amoral agitators who were not long ago covering for these same predators.
Me either. But I'm interested in the cultural breakdown that leads to that sort of nuttiness.
I don't have any personal sympathy for the "oh, he called me into his office and intimidated me into blowing him, now ten years later I'm complaining about it". (Whatever, ya daft cunt,as the Aussies say.) On the other hand, since I don't view these things strictly as a matter of consenting adult negotiating their personal preferences, I also don't have any sympathy for slime-dogs attracting public opprobrium for slime-dog behavior. Sure, Hollywood and politics have always been cesspits, but the attitude exhibited by some people around here, viz., that the Weinsteins of the world are merely the hapless victims of vindictive bitches brought low, just for, sniff, being men...is laughable.
So put it this way: I don't want to live in a culture where men are pilloried (or worse) for flirting, complimenting, or asking women out. By the same token, I don't want to live in a culture where everyone is supposed to just "privately negotiate" with some jackass should he, say, call them into his office and propose a private wank viewing. I want a properly functioning "private sphere" (not a libertarian joke simulacrum of one). Inherent in a functioning private sphere is the possibility of exposure to public contempt for slimy behavior. That feature prevails regardless of there being an amenable slime-dogette for every slime-dog. No possibility of being exposed to public contempt? Then you don't have a functioning private sphere, so stop banging on about what you're supposed to do inside or out of it.
If jackass wants to try stunts like that on whomever, why shouldn't he (or she!) assume the risk inherent in conducting himself like a pig with people who may turn out not to be pigs themselves? What's that word again? Oh yeah, agency.
Drago
You're right that the Clintons and their machine will do all they can to get Hillary another shot in 2020 and then position Chelsea. I think the media is done with Hillary and will hurt her this time. And, I think the machine, media and voters will realize Chelsea is so weak that it will be hard for her to get any traction. Hillary's weaknesses did not keep her from securing the nomination, so maybe Chelsea's weaknesses will not completely block her, but the Clinton power in D politics will not be what it used to be ever again.
He's correct that "the private sphere" should be where these issues are handled, but, in typical spergitarian fashion, hasn't figured out that that private sphere of tacit shared values isn't there anymore.
You don't need shared values. Disagreement about values is what mutually beneficial trade depends on. It's the only way you both can come out ahead. In fact wealth is created only by disagreement about values.
Otherwise everything is an even trade and nothing changes. It's like being self-sufficient. Make your own pencils, draw your own nails, cut your own lumber. The best you can do is extreme poverty.
It's like what happens when the state takes over, in fact.
No possibility of being exposed to public contempt? Then you don't have a functioning private sphere, so stop banging on about what you're supposed to do inside or out of it.
It's here that the estrogen cloud takes over. It's mean girls gone large.
Keep it in the neighborhood, out of the national spotlight. Which is to say, private.
Otherwise all people think that all women are morons.
Punishments aren't a good idea even in the private sphere, but women don't always know that.
Inherent in a functioning private sphere is the possibility of exposure to public contempt for slimy behavior.
First you have to agree about what type of behavior is contemptible. For instance I believe that receiving a blow job from one of your interns in the Oval Office is contemptible. Quite a few people disagree with me.
Similarly I believe that bragging about how many women you are prepared to hire by mentioning that you have 'binders full of women" is not contemptible. Those same people disagree with me again.
Until the left is willing to disarm and not make everything an instrument of purely political power, nothing will change.
people think that all women are morons
Feminists did deny women agency with Pro-Choice, and later with day after, year after, decade after litigative regrets. Still, they are a minority, and we shouldn't follow the diversitists' lead to paint people with broad, sweeping strokes.
Gahrie: First you have to agree about what type of behavior is contemptible.
Well, that's the crux of the biscuit, ain't it?
are there nothing but public and private spheres?
It wasn't that long ago that Weinstein-type behavior would get you a beat-down from a boyfriend and/or the male relatives of the offended woman, with the beat-down man unwilling to bring the matter of the beat-down to the authorities. But she would have to be willing to say something first, or at least "hint a ghastly behavior."
To say that there are only public and private spheres is to make the choice an unrealistic binary: the Law or anarchy.
When I was a young buck I twice settled things by threatening a beat down (didn't have to do it). One involved my sister's boyfriend & the other an ex of my then girlfriend.
The young woman in this case found that her boss was sending her e-mails about what a radiance she was in his life, begging her to think about him, commenting on her clothes, rubbing her shoulders and back, kissing her forehead (probably she was ducking to keep him up there), getting her in his car when the office group went to public events, leaving the office at the same time as her no matter what time she left, driving her to her apartment. This was utterly outrageous harassment. And sorry, guys, but I know that no man posting on this blog would behave that way - without realizing what he was doing. A reckoning was due and if Hillary is paying a part of the price she owes part of the price. After all, this married man was the head of the Clinton outreach to "faith-based groups."
That said, this Ruth Marcus article is another attempt to throw Hillary under the bus. That doesn't seem to work with her. Apparently she runs up her would-be-under-the-bus-throwers like a cat going up curtains and when they pull their hand back from the throw, there she is clinging onto their shoulder, purring in their ear. Besides, she has 27 lives - hers, Bill's, Chelsea's and hasn't used up more than 15. I have a bet on that she will run in the Democratic primary in 2020 if she is above ground. Maybe even if she isn't. Whether she will win depends on events that haven't happened. But she will run. And she has her slogan ready: Bitch Up America Again.
rh: You don't need shared values. Disagreement about values is what mutually beneficial trade depends on. It's the only way you both can come out ahead. In fact wealth is created only by disagreement about values.
Otherwise everything is an even trade and nothing changes. It's like being self-sufficient. Make your own pencils, draw your own nails, cut your own lumber. The best you can do is extreme poverty.
It's like what happens when the state takes over, in fact.
...
It's here that the estrogen cloud takes over. It's mean girls gone large.
Keep it in the neighborhood, out of the national spotlight. Which is to say, private.
Otherwise all people think that all women are morons.
Punishments aren't a good idea even in the private sphere, but women don't always know that.
Once, when one of my sisters was a teenaged lass, she was taking a long bus ride up the Eastern seaboard. The gentleman next to her in a seat in the back of the bus, in happy possession of his own private culture untainted by the estrogen cloud of unreason (as a free man opposed to collectivist notions of shared values ought to be), decided to propose a mutually beneficial trade based on their non-shared values to her, by staring at her, unzipping his pants, and beginning to masturbate.
My sister, alas, not understanding the roots of extreme poverty, stood up, loudly denounced to the entire bus the terms of what she should have respected as a private proposal, and succeeded in whipping up the rest of the travelers, and the driver, into her own state of "girls gone large" hysteria. I suspect she would have put him in the national spotlight, had that been within her power. Poor fellow was tossed off at the next stop.
I guess the driver and other passengers were a bit unsound on the inutility of "shared values", too.
Lewis Wetzel @6:35 PM:
The space where you managed your problems was part of the private sphere, properly understood. rh's attempt to reduce the entire "non-state" sphere to two individuals "negotiating" is just daft incomprehension of how humans function socially.
Your threats were made and understood in a functioning system of "shared values". I doubt the guys you threatened were the least bit puzzled when you introduced yourself into their " private negotiations" with your sister and girlfriend. I doubt they responded by complaining about your "collectivist" presumption, either.
That is true, Angel-Dyne.
It is a delicate issue because the woman requires help from male protectors. The implication is a beat-down, not a murder, and a woman who really means to physically assault a guy is probably not going to use her fists. She'll stab him or shoot him, or run him over.
Weinstein is out of a job but not in custody. He still has a lot of money. He'll be back to his old tricks again, I suppose. Maybe he wouldn't be if somewhere along the line he had had a few teeth knocked out.
Rhhardin: You don't need shared values.
Like the Constitution?
In 99% of America if you tell everyone in the office that a manager is giving a woman special treatment because she is servicing him, and it is actually true, it will end badly for that manager and the woman. In the long(not so long) run a private company that gives promotions for blow jobs/sex will not do well.
So you're OK with fuck-or-fired? In 99% of America, a terminated employee will not be entering the office again, other than going postal, and further communications from her into the office would have the character of crazy-cat-lady harassment. You're really not selling this.
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