“I’m a free woman and I will remain one,” Ms. Deneuve said in the letter to Libération. “I fraternally salute all women victims of odious acts who may have felt aggrieved by the letter in Le Monde. It is to them, and them alone, that I apologize.”Deneuve is not apologizing. Some people got the wrong idea about what the letter meant and she's letting them know she cares about their feelings. She's not saying she did anything wrong, so it's a nonapology.
Last week’s letter, which said that using social media as a forum for sharing experiences of sexual misconduct had gone too far, drew some praise but also international criticism.... The sentiment of the statement had been misrepresented by some of her fellow signatories, [Deneuve] said. “Yes, I signed this petition, and yet it seems to me absolutely necessary today to emphasize my disagreement with the way some petitioners individually claim the right to spread themselves across the media, distorting the very spirit of this text,” she continued....
Deneuve also took a shot at "conservatives, racists and traditionalists of all kinds who have found it strategic to support me": "I am not fooled... They will have neither my gratitude nor my friendship — on the contrary.” The NYT points out (for what it's worth) that Deneuve signed a 1971 letter (along with 343 other women) saying that she had had an abortion (when it was illegal).
The linked NYT article also refers to this NYT op-ed, "Catherine Deneuve and the French Feminist Difference," by the French journalist Agnès Poirier:
Call it a cliché if you like, but ours is a culture that, for better and for worse, views seduction as a harmless and pleasurable game, dating back to the days of medieval “amour courtois.” As a result, there has been a kind of harmony between the sexes that is particularly French. This does not mean that sexism doesn’t exist in France — of course it does. It also doesn’t mean we don’t disapprove of the actions of men like Mr. Weinstein. What it does mean is that we are wary of things that might disturb this harmony.I guess that's the sort of thing Deneuve wants to distance herself from. That's the trouble with signing a group letter, joining a movement, or even using a word like "feminist." You empower other people to seem to be speaking for you when they go about saying things that are not precisely what you want to say.
And in the past 20 years or so, a new French feminism has emerged — an American import. It has embraced this rather alien brand of anti-men paranoia... it took control of #MeToo in France, and this same form of feminism has been very vocal against the Deneuve letter....
To many of us in France, Simone de Beauvoir could have been writing yesterday: “Relations between men and women in America are one of permanent war. They don’t seem to actually like each other. There seems to be no possible friendship between them. They distrust each other, lack generosity in dealing with one another. Their relationship is often made of small vexations, little disputes, and short-lived triumphs.”
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80 comments:
I just love it when intellects give their opinion. Deep...deep...deep.
Deneuve also took a shot at "conservatives, racists and traditionalists of all kinds who have found it strategic to support me":
No matter how many people find their own views misrepresented by the left they simply will not apply that learning to others. So we will continue to recognize that liberals do not support freedom and fairness for anyone other than themselves, a tiny fraction exempted.
American feminism is shitholish.
Great quote from Simone! I am forced to concede that she is not comprehensibly awful.
Don’t you have to follow people on instagram, Facebook and Twitter to find out when things are strategerific as opposed to just plain convenient?
"Simone de Beauvoir could have been writing yesterday: “Relations between men and women in America are one of permanent war." Ah yes, she, the expert on US gender relations.
Simone de Beauvoir was Sartre's enabler. Sartre deserves posthumous #metoo status.......Since we're tearing down statues of men who had the wrong attitudes about race, can we move on to further enlightenment and tear down statues of the men who had wrong attitudes about women and sexuality. Blow out the eternal flame at the Kennedy Memorial. Maybe it's time we reevaluated the legacy of Che and Fidel.
So, she defends the right to deny lives deemed unworthy, and the cover-up for #SheKnew, #SheProfited, #SheProgressed. And then the tried and true lie: the war between men and women. As for racism, sexism, and congruence, the diversitists and others from the Pro-Choice Church are infamous for their projections. She needs to lose her liberalism (divergence) and discover a conservation of principles.
American feminism is shitholish.
It's a shitshow full of blood, bigotry, collateral damage, and progressive dysfunction.
It's hard to find a woman with a good word for Harvey Weinstein.
After all those deals they liked.
“I fraternally salute all women victims of odious acts who may have felt aggrieved by the letter in Le Monde.
Shouldn't that be "sororally salute all women"? In this day of rampant feminism, "sororal" deserves a wider audience.
Very apropos is the Aziz Ansari case: https://goo.gl/TTTVS6
As written up in The Atlantic: https://goo.gl/J92WK6
Basically, American feminism is a shithouse.
I thought abortion was legal in NYC in 1971?
Was it not legal in France in 1971?
Now if she had an abortion in the South, it would be a different story.
They criticize Jefferson for writing the Declaration of Independence while owning slaves. Well and good, but the history of any number of feminist icons is none too inspiring. Simone de Beauvoir, Margaret Sanger, Katherine Hepburn, Hannah Arendt. Behind every liberated woman there's an abusive man.........I think Madame Curie is still ok. I haven't heard any dirt on her, but perhaps with more research........
Let me offer my nonapod-ology: Somehow I suspect the French idea of harmony between the sexes is more Pepe le Pew than Cyrano de Bergerac. After all, they offered sanctuary to Roman Polanski.
I knew Deneuve was not a conservative or a traditionalist. She's correct about Third Wave American feminism though.
Net net, I would think that Catherine Deneuve is more a victor than a victim in the Game of Sexes.
The only insight worth noting is that men and women are equal and complementary.
Harold Ford has apparently been vindicated. So that's one. But the Hollywood and media celebrities who have been shamed have inflicted d far more damage on women than society has inflicted on them. I'd have more love for Catherine if she had made a bold statement in support of those college students who were unfairly maligned instead of the celebrity crowd that she's a part of.
There's something nice about pissing off a variety of people, in all directions. FU to all y'all.
Shorter Deneuve (non)-apology:
"That's right, bitches -- you heard me. I said it."
Simone de Beauvoir sounds like the voice of reason - except she not only looked the other way when Sartre seduced young (sometimes very young) women, she acted as his procurer in some cases.
I think the French, as well as the Americans confuse flirting and seduction with exploitation and harassment. The difference is that the French are quicker to put a positive spin on all sexual interactions and the Americans are prone to jump to negative conclusions. The French will give a Gallic shrug when confronted with Polanski's crime; the Americans will get hysterical over a supposed comment about a pubic hair on a Coke can.
"Catherine Deneuve nonapologizes."
The substance of her statement wasn't the point. It was the closing.
“I would like to say to conservatives, racists and traditionalists of all kinds who have found it strategic to support me that I am not fooled,” she said. “They will have neither my gratitude nor my friendship — on the contrary.”
It was a genuflection, really, an attempt to be spared the wrath.
De Beauvoir got fired from a job at a lycee because she'd bring home (underage) students for threesomes with her & pervy, wall-eyed ol' JP.
Hey, when you believe existence is a useless passion, you might as well get all the passion you can pretty much how you can, eh?
a bold statement in support of those college students who were unfairly maligned
Yes, that would have promoted a conservation of principles. However, generally, it's equal and complementary, and, when that fails, there is due process where both the accuser and accused are at risk.
“conservatives” and “traditionalists of all kind” lumped with racists. What a despicable woman.
American feminism seems to be largely driven by a butch lesbian attitude toward men, particularly white men, which is incubated in academia and then spread through general society by SJW's. I don't see that in Europe, and I believe a large part of this attitude difference regarding European women is partly because butch lesbians do not have as much influence on the university campuses here as in the US and partly because European women do not seem to be as insecure as those in the US. It also helps that European campuses are not run by SJW's. Regardless the reasons, European feminists do not seemed to be focused on castrating men, but mostly on equality with men which is feminism that I an support. As Agnès Poirier indicates, Deneuve's attitude is probably more the norm here than the exception, particularly in France.
Makes me wonder if any alpha males live in France.
The hysteria over the "coke can" was manufactured.
As is the "shithole" thing.
These were taken up by the MSM propaganda machine.
On the personal side it became a tribal weapon. The same allegation over people on that side would have been ignored or at best argued away with some subjective excuse.
Most of this stuff is insincere. They don't actually feel this, they just use it as ammunition. t
This applies to all sides of course, but only one side has an MSM to officially manufacture and bless memes.
People are wonderfully good at rationalization, and extremely reluctant to engage in self-examination.
We see this here everyday. There is very rarely a dialectic, it is always a ritual presentation of symbols. Its a very sterile thing, and I don't understand what satisfaction comes of it. I don't know if the internet selects for people of questionable character in comment sections, but it certainly seems that way.
It was a genuflection, really, an attempt to be spared the wrath.
1/15/18, 11:07 AM
I think you have something there, EDH.
For a while now, I have wondered how Camille Paglia can fiercely denounce Third Wave feminism, campus speech codes, and overweening government - and then turn around and praise Bernie and Nancy Pelosi and vote for Jill Stein. How could she support and vote for people who would make the conditions she bitches about even worse? She's not an idiot. Then it occurred to me that the only reason Paglia is still permitted to speak on campuses is because she insists she is a leftist and is, indeed, careful to stress her leftism at every opportunity, even if she then damns PC and victimhood politics in the next breath. If she said she is now on the right, or voted for Trump, she would immediately be dismissed and banned as a wingnut.
Similiarly, Deneuve must distance herself from the Right or she will instantly be lumped with LePen enthusiast Bardot.
Bardot is interesting.
Right or wrong, sane or not, she has guts.
Interestingly both Deneuve and Bardot took up with Roger Vadim. Well, quite a few did. Vadim must have had exceptional skills.
Mark Twain was inveighing against French "Immorality" in 1900. For years, the French were viewed as sexual libertines, while the French viewed us as "Puritans". IRC, brothels were legal in France all the way till the 1960s.
It seems nothing much has changed. Most American Feminists are just the same old puritans under a different name.
Why is it we never hear from the Italians on this issue? Is it because they are puritans or libertines?
"After all those deals they liked."
Ah RH, so cynical about women.
Don't you know they're all angels?
I've always thought it was our pioneer experience here in America that made things different between the sexes. Women gave up a hell of a lot, and had to endure a hell of a lot, to head out there into the unknown. Men then trying to lord it over them rankled.
Christy said...
Makes me wonder if any alpha males live in France.
You can be sure there are plenty of them.
American feminism may be a shitshow, but be careful to not conflate women and feminism or chauvinism. They are congruent ("="), but not equal. Many and perhaps most American women are still not Pro-Choice (i.e. selective, opportunistic, and congruent). They are self-moderating and responsible individuals, and do not indulge in avoidance. They reconcile moral, natural, and personal imperatives in the company of community, friends, family, husband, and Posterity.
pioneer experience here in America... Women gave up a hell of a lot, and had to endure a hell of a lot
And men did not?
Also, women weren't equal and consenting partners?
Lydia: "I've always thought it was our pioneer experience here in America that made things different between the sexes."
Could be something to this, but growing up on the High Plains, with a grandmother who was a homesteader, I have to say that the tough broads that grew up in Texas up through Montana didn't seem the slightest bit oppressed by the men around them, nor take to the fainting couch when men made passes.
Deneuve's maneuver is similar to Seal's allegation that Oprah knew (and likely profited), but only he was authorized to denounce her integrity.
Hoping to improve my arthouse bona fides, not too long ago I watched Repulsion from 1965. I thought it was really good. I was very surprised by how engrossed I became with Ms. Deneuve. I expected her to be awful, as all I knew about her were those bogus TV commercials for Chanel No. 5. But she was really good in it, I thought.
Maybe that's of a stripe with the French attitude when it comes to gender relations: Low expectations.
Ms. DeNeuve stands on her own two feet--thank you very much. And if someone persuades her to jump between the sheets, she will do so--or not do so--of her own free will.
The idea of free will--and of taking responsibility for your own actions--seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle among a large portion of our current USA population. Being a victim is "so much more fun". Aaargh!
Didn't she sell L'Oreal hair color, too?
”Conservatives” and “traditionalists of all kind” lumped with racists. What a despicable woman.
What Kasaar said.
Bitch.
This reminds me of the hoo-hah in Canada over Margaret Atwood having signed an open letter. Am I a Bad Feminist ? The only thing remarkable about it is that it flowed from the pen of Margaret Atwood. She is on twitter defending her non-apology, according to the Globe and Mail.
Makes me wonder if any alpha males live in France.
You can be sure there are plenty of them.
And most are Muslim.
seduction as a harmless and pleasurable game
Right. Because harmless and pleasurable seduction includes having a total stranger grab your ass when you are a 19 year old waitress. Or a co-worker your dad's age massaging your neck while you are at work. Or a client - again, married, your dad's age - kiss you. Or, when you tell your boss you don't want to work with that client again, he tells you that you must have provoked said married, old man to kiss you.
I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Here are the rules.
1. Don't touch women at work unless you are shaking their hand.
2. Don't show your penis at work.
3. Don't ask women you work with or otherwise have power over to have sex with you, to watch you take a shower, to massage you, or anything you would not ask your own mother to do. That does not mean you are allowed to ask them to do your ironing, either.
Young Catherine Deneuve - very hot
Young Bridgette Bardot - very hot
Young Simone De Beauvoir? - not so hot
That sucks...the FemaNAZI's threats worked again.
Ms. DeNeuve stands on her own two feet--thank you very much.
Paradoxically, agency was denied to women when female chauvinists placed conception before choice. Are men equally ignorant or self-indulgent? Or perhaps opportunistic. It seems to be a problem that can be traced to secular (e.g. science) and moral (i.e. behavioral) education.
Catherine understands that woman power does not mean destroying all the men who are interested in women. That would be stupid...unless you are the powerful lesbian that wants half the competition eliminated.
Sex is still sexual conquest by seduction. The ground rules need negotiating, but that has been pre-done. It is called the traditional marriage rules between a man and a woman. Don't jump into bed without one.
The ground rules need negotiating, ... It is called the traditional marriage rules between a man and a woman
Ideally with a preliminary and comprehensive courtship to mitigate irreconcilable differences and collateral damage (e.g. selective-child).
The idea of free will--and of taking responsibility for your own actions--seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle among a large portion of our current USA population
Women must never be made to fell bad about, or responsible for, anything, ever.
“I fraternally salute all women victims of odious acts who may have felt aggrieved by the letter in Le Monde.
Shouldn't that be "sororally salute all women"? In this day of rampant feminism, "sororal" deserves a wider audience.
Fraternity has a revolutionary meaning in France.
Fraternity has a revolutionary meaning in France.
Ah, yes... fraternité. And we all know where that leads. Unfortunately, the next round will involve stoning pits rather than guillotines.
Golddigger said:
"Right. Because harmless and pleasurable seduction includes having a total stranger grab your ass when you are a 19 year old waitress. Or a co-worker your dad's age massaging your neck while you are at work. Or a client - again, married, your dad's age - kiss you. Or, when you tell your boss you don't want to work with that client again, he tells you that you must have provoked said married, old man to kiss you."
All those things are bad. ( However, I had my ass grabbed when I was a 19 year old waitress too and, although I didn't like it, I didn't brood about it for years. I told the jackass to cut it out and went about my business. Jesus H, waitresses have been getting their asses grabbed by strangers for forever and the usual response though the years has been to say "Stop it!" or to push the hand away or even slap the dirtbag ( my mom did that to a guy who got grabby on a streetcar back in the '40's and was backed up by the other men there, who told him he was acting like a jerk.) To do nothing and then feel resentment for years about it is just another example of how trivial incidents are being blown up and conflated with much more serious sexual assaults. The reaction of your boss was more serious because your boss had power over you. That's a difficult situation to be in.
There are situations where women can stand up for themselves and other situations where they can't without risking their jobs or some sort of reprisal. It's the latter situations that should concern us. But there have been reports of women getting guys fired just because the guys asked them out or told dirty jokes which made the women "uncomfortable." Actual exhibitionism is one thing and should be punished (because anybody who waves their dick around at work is a loon, unless he's a porn actor). Constantly leering at or making sexual jokes at work isn't acceptable either - but the woman has to make it clear that it isn't acceptable, not go along with it and pretend it's all cool before racing to HR.
Christy said...
Makes me wonder if any alpha males live in France.
They are importing a variant from the middle east.
Gahrie said...
The idea of free will--and of taking responsibility for your own actions--seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle among a large portion of our current USA population
Women must never be made to fell bad about, or responsible for, anything, ever.
What most people don't understand is if you are removed from responsibility you are removed from freedom.
The left knows it is a loser to tell people they want to take away their freedom, so they tell people they no longer need to be responsible for things. This is one of the core reasons the left turns places into shitholes.
Yeah, okay, I get it, there’s no base reality feminism and it’s all a simulation with the higher purpose of manipulating black[shit] hole media-lifetimes lived at scales of attoseconds, though Deneuve really did apologize to American feminists, but she apologized only to that smaller subset who really suffered “odious acts,” and to the yet smaller subset of those who further felt “aggrieved” by the Le Monde letter, in the American simulation created by Weinstienien-aliens, and now that her attosecond of effective apology is over, screw those who don’t get the apology (their effective agency remains in taking offense), and Deneuve keeps perfect sorority with women glad to suffer, celebrate, and maximize opportunities in odious acts created by Continental Vadim-aliens, and on and on the Continental simulation goes.
Makes me wonder if any alpha males live in France.
Why?
You're asking about my thought processes from 5 hours ago!?!
Let's see if I arrive at the same place now. I'm not considering abusive behavior here, just normal (whatever that means today) behavior between consenting adults.
Simone de Beauvoir's depiction of adversarial relationships in the States doesn't offend me. Instead it suggests strong parties on both sides. And I like that. An alpha male makes his move, a strong woman deals with that move however she wants. End of story. Made me wonder about if strong males and females were rare in France.
Dear Abby,
I work for important TV personality who asked me if I wanted to "watch him take a shower". I actually like watching people taking showers, it makes me feel clean. However, I don't want to have sex with him - ever.
What should I do?
Signed "Confused in Connecticut".
An alpha male makes his move, a strong woman deals with that move however she wants. End of story
Alas.
Feminists seem to envision men as predators and women as prey. What a depraved, weird perspective of reality. Perhaps that's the way it is in the liberal realm, where human fitness is an imposition and Posterity is a punishment. For their part, The New York Times delights in denying women agency, painting men and women as secular automatons devoid of moral capacity, advocating for the progressive rite of abortion (or Choice) as choice.
Whatever happened to the France of "Non, je ne regrette rien"?
alas
Not always.
“Not always.”
Give it time.
I couldn't agree more... than with at least 90% of that.
Speaking of Deneuve's criticisms, the blog has lately been hosting a psychopath who believes he's a radical feminist that can "sex shame" on the basis of, let's see, liking foreign (or exotic?) women - except when it's Trump, liking breasts, apparently not coming down hard enough against the apparently horrible crime of cunnilingus (or so that's how he interpreted it), and so on. This is a guy who prides himself on hating education, not really having much of a career, and channeling all his financial pride into having supposedly bought a house (at someone else's initiative) in a region full of people who hate most of what he stands for. Things that really must turn a woman on - especially the "strong" ones he says are great. (Even though his own is immature enough to rely on adolescent eye-rolling to make a point).
Curiouser and curiouser. Good to know the rest of the blog, as well as Deneuve, is not so unhinged.
The left knows it is a loser to tell people they want to take away their freedom...
Lol. Whereas the right just goes ahead and does it!
Hi, Mr. Sessions!
Constantly leering at or making sexual jokes at work isn't acceptable either - but the woman has to make it clear that it isn't acceptable, not go along with it and pretend it's all cool before racing to HR.
That would entail the strength of speaking up for oneself - rather than just calling to be "rescued!"
Let's face it. Most women prefer to feel that they are being rescued. By anyone. From anything.
She's correct about Third Wave American feminism though.
Why do people call the prissy kind "third wave," though?
I thought third wave was raunch girl "culture", pro-sex, not claiming be damaged/triggered by porn, etc.
The "all sex is rape" stuff arose IIRC from the 1970s "brilliant" pseudo-scholarship of McKinnon and Dworkin, who wanted to ban pornography. That sounds like second-wave to me.
Apparently the encyclopedia entries are trying to sort all this shit out and seem to indicate a good thing or two and some abominable things with each wave.
Here's a crazy entry for you: Feminist sex wars. LOL.
Betcha never thought you'd see a topic on THAT.
Crazy ladies.
“Let us join hands and fix our shithole country!” Amen.
"conservatives, racists and traditionalists of all kinds"
Hmm..first grouping these together..then adding "of all kinds"?
So..who exactly does she imagine being under her narrowed tent?
"Young Simone De Beauvoir?"
Collaborator! https://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/simone-de-beauvoir-a-nazi-a-pedophile-and-a-misogynist/
And so was her old man. https://www.spectator.co.uk/2008/04/blood-on-their-hands/
As for fraternité, a wonderful concept developed by 19th century lefty betters to give license for the masses to regulate what any given individual is supposed to believe. Conformity by any other name.
Catharine Deneuve admits to an abortion....can you imagine just what a beautiful child she/he would have been? Freaks me out at such a loss.....
A free woman in France? Well, enjoy it while you can. There is a rapidly increasing number of people who may choose to express their opinions of your freedom in violent terms. But that's cool because they aren't conservative, racist or any kind of traditionalist of any sort.
"THEY order, said I, this matter better in France.—You have been in
France? said my gentleman, turning quick upon me, with the most civil
triumph in the world.—Strange! quoth I, debating the matter with myself,
That one and twenty miles sailing, for ’tis absolutely no further from
Dover to Calais, should give a man these rights:—I’ll look into them:...."
Laurence Sterne, A Sentimental Journey Through Italy and France, 1768
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