Said Mary Beard (whose book "SPQR: A History of Ancient Rome" I've paused in the middle of reading). That quote is in the middle of an interview with Hillary Clinton, who responds: "Well, that is the core dilemma. Like, today, I have makeup on. You don’t. But that is just part of the uniform that one wears in public life and politics, at least in my experience."
Beard says: "If I started to wear makeup now, I would get so abused on Twitter. I’m actually as trapped as you are, Hillary!"
And Hillary Clinton says: "Men can get a haircut; it doesn’t change their authenticity. They can grow a beard; they are still who they are. Whereas we are constantly held to that good old double standard, which is so complex and deep and charged with historical and mythological and cultural totems."
Totems, eh? I know I don't really have to try to understand bullshit. In one sentence she claims everything is simple and obvious and everything is exquisitely complicated.
"Totem" is a word that's only appeared maybe 6 times in the 50,000+ posts on this blog, so it hit me hard when it appeared the second time in a single day. The other time was in the post about about Emma Cline and Chaz Reetz-Laiol. I was quoting something from "Can the Plagiarism Charges Against Emma Cline Hold Up in Court?" Emma Cline had written: “My mother spoke to Sal about body brushing, of the movement of energies around meridian points. The charts.” Reetz-Laiolo had written: “Laurel in the morning brushing her body on the patio with a body brush, slowly combing it up her legs towards her heart, up her arms towards her heart. Circling her belly. There was something totemic about her out there in the sun.”
What are we talking about here? Wikipedia says:
While the term totem is Ojibwe, belief in tutelary spirits and deities is not limited to indigenous peoples of the Americas but common to a number of cultures worldwide. However, the traditional people of those cultures have words for their guardian spirits in their own languages, and do not call these spirits or symbols "totems."So what, if anything, was Hillary Clinton trying to say? I did a search in her book, "What Happened," to see if she delved into the complex and deep topic of totems, but the word does not appear. I tried "makeup" and got 15 hits, including:
Contemporary neoshamanic, New Age and mythopoetic men's movements not otherwise involved in the practice of a tribal religion have been seen to use "totem" terminology for the personal identification with a tutelary spirit or guide....
Once Bill entered politics, the spotlight on me was glaring and often unkind.... When he lost, and I heard over and over that my name—my name!—had played a part.... So I added “Clinton” to Hillary Rodham. I asked my friends for hair, makeup, and clothing advice. That’s never come easily to me, and until then, I didn’t care. But if wearing contact lenses or changing my wardrobe would make people feel more comfortable around me, I’d try it.But we never did get comfortable around you, did we, Hillary? I don't see why we should be comfortable around any politician, and I appreciate that you admit you adopted phony devices in an effort to trick us into letting down our guard, but it's kind of funny that you turn around and lambaste us for not accepting your "authenticity."
Later, when Bill was running for President for the first time, I stumbled again. I now had the right name, wore makeup, styled my hair. But I hadn’t tamed my tongue....
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107 comments:
An empty pantsuit fluttering in the breeze...
Instead of calling it The Reckoning, we could say This Totemic Moment. For one thing, it has involved a lot of totems, big and little.
Hillary is an authentic bitch.
Hillary without make-up? Yikes!
Women are subjected to more criticism of their looks than men, granted. At some point, they'll have to act like men do and bull through it.
Think about the criticism Trump has gone through. Some of it's deserved, but then look at any GOP presidential candidate and the way they've been treated.
At some point, you have to tell them to funque off.
Also, in my research on the Greeks, I found a lot of neoshamanic slut-shaming and totemic use of identity to reify gender roles...
Aw f**k it, just vote for me already you nitwit.
-Hillary!
It wasn't her hair and makeup that turned us off. Somebody tell her.
Having just scanned the interview at the link, I can tell you that this is yet another interview with Hillary Clinton that asks her nothing. It's all blather about this and that and the other thing...nothing about any issue in American politics.
Mary Beard is a British professor of classics, so one can see why Clinton would want to sit for an interview with her, though Beard should have asked if she thought she was woman enough to step into Caesar's sandals when she said of Libya, "We came. We saw. He died."
Look at her gleeful face, laughter, and body language in the film clip above. Can you imagine Eisenhower, Lincoln, or Washington acting like that?
Can't a woman get ahead on her own merits? Hillary says no. What if, instead of being fake her adult life, she had adopted a fealty to telling the truth and being true to herself? How would "what happened" have turned out quite differently; and if she had the option to go back in time and had to make the choice between helping Bill become president or being elected the first female president, what would she have chosen?
I think what she is saying is that she was not worthy to be the iconic first female president because so much of her achievements were on the basis of her relationship to her husband. We want the first female president to be a woman who can say, I did it because of my merit, not I got here because of my husband. She would have a fake first woman president.
Why is this crazy woman talking about make-up and totems? (Referring to Hillary, not Althouse:)
Wow, so she had to wear Contacts? So did Ronald Reagan.
She had to get her "Hair Done"? Well, male POTUS candidates have to wear toupees - if they are bald. Or not run at all - or accept the massive loss in votes. Our last bald POTUS was IKE.
She had to wear the right clothes? Well, every POTUS candidate has to do that.
I'll give her the makeup part.
Hillary's problem is that she was still Hillary, not matter what she wore or how much makeup she had on.
Keep on talking Hillary, the more you talk, the less people like you.
Hillary is claiming she was accused of being inauthentic for wearing makeup? She was accused of being inauthentic, all right, but not for wearing makeup. It's that sort of self-pitying bending of the truth that is so characteristic of the Clintons and so obnoxious. Thank the Goddess Hillary lost the election.
Reminds me of the scene in Terminator (1) where the machine has to consult its files for the proper terms with which to address humans.
I was initially confused by the title of Beard's book. Years ago I read a series of roman mystery books with the SPQR title. It was an enjoyable series of books following a young nobleman.
My favorite fiction Roman detective was Falco. That was a really enjoyable series. Very lightweight but fun.
Now I have to read Beard's book.
The point about Rome is important, from another angle.
This was not new in Rome, it all did not come fully formed in @700BC
We are examining cultural traits from the dawn of settled societies, before recorded civilization.
And similar states of social relations are found in all cultures, even those that arose from savagery completely isolated.
And in all "savage" societies that have survived to late enough to be studied.
The male-female power differential is inherent in the species, not just certain societies.
This is not really subject to change. There is nothing in human history, short as it is, that would have shifted evolutionary processes in a pro-female power direction. Cultural tweaks run against the human grain.
We want the first female president to be a woman who can say, I did it because of my merit, not I got here because of my husband.
Joni Ernst anyone?
If Joni Ernst would pledge to castrate Bill Clinton, she'd get my vote.
Bill, Republic of Texas
Beard's SPQR is terrific well worth a read if you interested in Rome.
I'm thinking the first female president will be Ivanka Trump but only if her father is impeached.
Google Mary Beard and N N Taleb. He destroys her credibility utterly and to the last particle.
The Romans, and I believe the Greeks, did not look at sex quite the same way as we do. Two people were having sex when one penetrated the other with his penis. Men could have sex with men, but women could not have sex with women. If two men had sex, the buggerer endured no shame, because he was acting the male part. The buggered was shamed because he acted the female part. I've read somewhere that having an ancestor who was buggered made a political career impossible, in Rome.
"SPQR takes its title from another famous Roman catchphrase, Senatus PopulusQue Romanus, ‘The Senate and People of Rome’. It is driven by a personal curiosity about Roman history, by a conviction that a dialogue with ancient Rome is still well worth having and by the question of how a tiny and very unremarkable little village in central Italy became so dominant a power over so much territory in three continents. This is a book about how Rome grew and sustained its position for so long, not about how it declined and fell, if indeed it ever did in the sense that Gibbon imagined...."
Beard, Mary. SPQR: A History of Ancient Rome (pp. 16-17). Liveright. Kindle Edition.
Is there no end to The Big V's BS?
Well no, there isn't.
Her "authenticity" is scarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry.
I wear horn-rimmed specs, no makeup and I've never had my hair styled. (It does get cut occasionally.)
I command respect by earning it. On my job, in my community, at school.
Honey badger don't give a damn.
This Mary beard
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v23/n19/nine-eleven-writers/11-september
"The buggered was shamed because he acted the female part."
I'ue read of that, bvt also that Jvlivs Caesar was "Euery woman's hvsband and euery man's wife", and that was no hindrance to him at all, and his career was only ended when he was penetrated by Gaivs Cassivs Longinvs, et al.
Always going to be someone else's fault.
But I hadn’t tamed my tongue....
It's hard to fix petty.
Hillary Clinton is a Jane Austen character. Unfortunately she is in our politics instead of an obscure English manor.
"[F]rom the primitive point of view, it is perfectly possible that a savage should have one soul in his sex totem and another in his clan totem. However, as I have observed, sex totems have been found nowhere but in Australia; so that as a rule the savage who practises totemism need not have more than one soul out of his body at a time."
You can't argue with that.
Render unto Hillary that which is yours.
I had a wonderful classics class as an undergraduate. The instructor was a PhD candidate. One day she ran in late. "I'm sorry, I was arguing against Plato and lost track of time."
The highlight of the course was a mock trial of Medea. One student was her public defender. Another was her prosecutor. The rest of as assumed roles as other characters, then subsequently as citizens who would decide her fate. We of course found her guilty of killing Glauce and Creon, despite the fact that her other murders could -- dismembering her brother for example -- could not be admitted as evidence.
Then our instructor let us know -- as a woman, it didn't matter. She wasn't a citizen and would had no defense.
I see her point. Matt Lauer always seemed so warm and sincere. If you had a sad story, he would nod sympathetically at just the right place. He was even allowed to go bald on live television......Some phonies look authentic. Some phonies look phony.......This is a philosophical question in the vein of asking whether you should believe an Athenian if he tells you all Athenians are liars: Is Hillary a greater or lesser phony than Matt Lauer? She's more obviously a phony but aren't all those tells a form of authenticity. You know where she's coming from. If Matt Lauer started raping you, you would never see it coming.
Lord knows I dislike the woman, but isn't she making a useful and even interesting point here? The broader definition of totem is a thing having particular emblematic or symbolic importance. Isn't Hillary deploying the word (properly) to say that women's use of makeup is a tell for the existence of profound differences between the sexes, whether cultural or -- dare I say -- biological? We know she can't say the latter, of course, but by using an American Indian word steeped in the Spirit World, she can hint at it.
Bill Peschel said...
Women are subjected to more criticism of their looks than men, granted.
Nearly all of it from other women.
Luckily for Donald Trump, nobody criticized his hair or complexion.
If Matt Lauer started raping you, you would never see it coming.
Not if you were bent over a chair.
From "Monty Pythons Flying Circus", "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers"
Padre: (Michael Palin, entering) Sorry, I'm late, Headmaster - I've been wrestling with Plato.
Headmaster: What you do in your own time, Padre, is written on the wall in the vestry.
I just thought it was funny.
Women are subjected to more criticism of their looks than men, granted.
Nearly all of it from other women.
Precisely. Women wear makeup mostly as a shield to ward off the astounding cattiness of other women.
I too stalled out on the Mary Beard book. Not quite half-way. I have been through Gibbon though it took about three years to mount all six volumes. Might have another go at Gibbon. Good stuff.
Totem that barge
Lift that bale
You get a little drunk
You lands in jail
I think the problem with Hillary is that we have figured out the authentic Hillary and it is not pleasing in any way, shape or form.
The secret of success is sincerity. Once you can fake that you've got it made.
--Jean Giraudoux
Integrity is an infection ... You can catch it only from those who have it.
Lois M Bujold.
Ken B: Google Mary Beard and N N Taleb. He destroys her credibility utterly and to the last particle.
That twitter slap-fest between Taleb and Beard was highly entertaining. (She and her twitter minions did not make a good showing). SPQR looks to be a good read, regardless.
For me, SPQR is full of fresh information and interpretations, but what I've read about Rome isn't recent.
A day or two ago, two out of three Jeopardy contestants didn't know who was emperor in 65 AD and put up the Colossus statue of himself for which the Colosseum is named. That show always surprises me with the holes in others' learning--and occasionally my own.
Bob Dole used to use one of those angled face-tanning mirrors on his Capitol balcony and in Florida so he wouldn't have to put on makeup for the TV shows. I wish I knew what brand of shoe polish he used, as my first beard since the 80's is partly a platinum blond.
John McCain had skin treatment two or three years before the 2008 election which I'll wager caused the melanoma he got. His face looked like raw marbled meat.
I like my totems firm.
Women are the toughest critics of other women, I've got five sisters and I once supervise thirty five women at a job.
Ralph L
Bob dole was one of the funniest people I've known in private.
Hillary is pathological. She sounds like my crazy ex. Zero self awareness and a complete lack of personal accountability. Everything negative that happens to her is somebody elses fault.
And Hillary Clinton says: . . . Whereas we are constantly held to that good old double standard, . . ."
Hillary, you hold yourself to that good old double standard, telling us "we must do this or that because it is the right thing to do" while lying about everything you have ever done, or not done. It it weren't for double standards you wouldn't have any.
Women wear makeup. Wow. A real stop the presses moment. A woman who overdoes her makeup seems phony, but a woman who knows what she's doing (see Kushner, Ivanka, and Trump, Melania) doesn't come across as a fake.
"constantly held to that good old double standard" We're equal! We're put upon! I made it on my husband's coattails! All they look at is makeup!
But now women's double standard has turned into a triple standard--equality and sympathy and special support: we're equal and autonomous individuals, but we're always put upon by mean men against whom we can't stand up, so we need and deserve special help.
We are never good enough for poor Hillary. The Butt Hurt Tour continues.
tcrosse said ... It wasn't her hair and makeup that turned us off. Somebody tell her.
First I was too stupid, as a women, to think for myself. Now, I was duped into not voting for Private Server for Clinton Foundation and Destroying Libya - because of her hair and makeup.
When Mitt Romney lost the election, he did not go on a failure tour like Hillary has been doing.
Really, say what you want about how unfairly women are treated, but no non-female presidential loser has gotten the post-election adulation she has.
Luckily for Donald Trump, nobody criticized his hair or complexion.
thread winner. LOL!
Hillary Clinton and her supporters always claimed that the best reason to elect her President was between her legs. So I suppose it's not surprising that the stupid bitch still hasn't realized that the reason she isn't President is between her ears.
Mac McC, it's a shame Dole never could pull out his funny bone in public, despite 3 national election attempts. I don't think the jet black hair helped him, either.
As with many things, they were right on this one also.
Fake face make-up, fake tits, fake tan, fake interest in the people with the most to offer them, fake everything.
Men are taught from an early age and from their hormones to manipulate the physical world around them.
Women are taught from an early age and from their hormones to manipulate the people they know.
Such is as it ever was.
And this is a typical female have-it-both-ways move. Clinton assured the Democratic Party that she could and would win that election. She could do anything a man could do. Now it seems she's lost that election. And she's saying, "Hey, don't blame me! The voters are so hopelessly sexist, no woman could possibly have won that election."
See, Hillary could be the greatest quarterback who ever played in the NFL. If they'd just change the rules a little, to make the game fairer. No, change it some more, it's not fair enough yet. It'll be fair enough when I win.
Good thing nobody ever called her CheetoBuddha. That would hurt.
All the money made on Hillary's Butt Hurt Tour will go to charity.
Oh wait - no it won't.
Jupiter @ 7:30
Well said!
"There is nothing in human history, short as it is, that would have shifted evolutionary processes in a pro-female power direction."
There is a question about the religion of Eleusis and the Eleusinan Mysteries of Athens, which might have been based on a female centered fertility cult and maybe even a rule by females.
Mary Renault goes into this in her novel "The King Must Die" but there may be some evidence of its existence.
It's one thing to embellish incidental features. It's something altogether different to hide your true nature and character. Diversitists need to learn to judge people by the "content of their character", and develop a reasonable sense of proportion with respect to the "color of their skin".
When Mitt Romney lost the election, he did not go on a failure tour like Hillary has been doing.
But he won't go away either. He's not all that different from her.
A man's suit is equivalent to a woman's makeup, isn't it? Made to conceal all manner of imperfections.
We all want to look our best when it counts. How is this a thing? Hillary keeps revealing her authentic self is a self-centered self.
Hillary Clinton meets Mary Beard: 'I would love to have told Trump: “Back off, you creep"'
Instead, America said to Hillary "Back off, you creep."
Beard says: "If I started to wear makeup now, I would get so abused on Twitter. I’m actually as trapped as you are, Hillary!"
That is some serious first world whining.
Twat happened.
How the hell does Mary Beard know what the Romans thought?
Beards are for closeted homosexuals.
Hillary makes life worse for many women, and she is celebrated by the left.
It's really very disgusting.
In regard to ancient Rome, I think if we could see pictures (not formalized statues or busts) of Caligula or Nero, they'd have the same crazy-eyed maniac facial expression you often see on Hillary
A man's suit is equivalent to a woman's makeup
It's principally designed to make us indistinguishable, so no one (male) notices we're wearing the same clothes over and over.
Trollope mentions the beneficial effects of tailoring several times, but not cod pieces.
tcrosse said...
It wasn't her hair and makeup that turned us off. Somebody tell her.
12/2/17, 4:23 PM
I did not hate Her for her looks, fashion sense, or body. I hated her for her mind. Hey, my cortex is up here!
On suits, it is remarkable that over historical time the price of a good man's suit has been equal to that of an ounce of gold, at local exchange.
Someone has to point this out. IMHO Hillary and her lefty female enablers are going to make it much harder for the next woman, not, as one might expect, easier. She was a terrible candidate who ran an addled campaign, and now she’s been throwing a year-long tantrum that would embarrass a two year old. Being a better candidate than Hillary Clinton would seem to be a low bar for the next female presidential candidate to surpass, but why should any of us take the chance that Hillary Clinton is the best female candidate we’ll ever see?
It's principally designed to make us indistinguishable, so no one (male) notices we're wearing the same clothes over and over.
Not to mention that an old-style suit, properly tailored, was remarkably comfortable, almost like wearing pajamas. Then the younger generation insisted on making them skin-tight, fucking up a perfect thing (oops, I just realized I somehow became my grandfather without noticing it).
making them skin-tight
They look like 14 year olds wearing a two-year-old suit. The worst part is seeing shirt below the coat's fastened button, but don't get me started on the trouser's discomfort.
I thought her most obvious fakery/device/pander was her ain't knowayze tyrred schtick.
Well..there was also the (presumably) authentic invocation of "Vagina!"
It was high time.
She wanted it.
I’m fairly certain Hillwry traveled with her own hairstylist and makeup artist.
She needs to go away, Forever.
Back when fewer than 50 million humans inhabited the Earth, Nefertiti and other women worldwide found the need to color their lips, eyelashes and brows.
Did The Patriarchy make them do that?
************************
Freeman Hunt said...
A man's suit is equivalent to a woman's makeup, isn't it? Made to conceal all manner of imperfections.
********************
Well, sure---if you think makeup is there to conceal rather than ACCENTUATE the eyes, brows and lips.
Bad skin, maybe. Rouge might be used to simulate sexual excitement or just robust health.
The rest? No.
Or maybe you're thinking of burkahs??
What is interesting to me is that in our species, it is the females who have the plumage, are the ones who strut their stuff. Worse than suits are formal events where all the men look almost identical in their black tuxes or tails, etc, and the women have the wild, colorful outfits. Most at least mammal species tend to reverse the sex here, with the males being the showier sex. My theory is that this is mostly a result of our (mostly) monogamous mating behaviors. And maybe the conformity of female dress in certain parts of Islam, that coincidentally practice polygamy, supporting this. Instead of having a bunch of males competing for each female, the females must compete for the best male that they can get, because monogamy means that they (mostly) can’t share the alpha males. If one female gets to mate with a specific male, that means that the other females mostly won’t be able to. And, even if they can sneak into his bed, they won’t get his alpha male resources to raise her kids.
Much has been made recently of toxic masculinity. Too much testosterone induced behavior. But we aren’t the only species where testosterone drives behavior that has adverse effects. For example, the males in a lot of species that have showy combat in order to mate, have a significantly lower chance of surviving the upcoming winter due to the resources expended in those combats. That sort of thing. But in our species, the females tend to be the ones competing with their plumage for their mates. And my thought there is that that is maybe why our males have the resources left over to expend on making this a better world. To invent civilization, theology, science, electricity, medicine, cars, planes, computers, the Internet, etc. But this may also suggest that women will long continue to have a harder time rising to the top, because they don’t have testosterone driving them, but instead are driven to expend resources to catch and keep male attention.
Sounds maybe a bit trite, but compare the time spent by the two sexes looking good. I marvel about the women who can spend an hour a day on their hair, makeup, dress, etc, and then much more shopping. And am thankful that I don’t need to do the same. I just can’t see spending that much of my life primping. Shower, shave, and then don one of several very similar outfits. Is today a blue or gray suit day? Pin stripes or not? That usually depends on what is planned that day. Everything else falls from that. Maybe 30 seconds to decide. Instead of worrying about what to wear, plucking eyebrows, putting on makeup, doing hair, the guys are thinking about work, and getting in early and staying late. So, yes, there probably is some male privilege some places, but much of it is because males, on average, do a better job there, and that is at least partially probably because they can expend more resources in that area. That is really only a problem if you believe in equality of results, and not equality of opportunity - which essentially was Crooked Hillary’s campaign claim, that it was a woman’s turn now. This woman may be completely corrupt and incompetent, but damn it, it’s their turn. Equality of results, regardless of merit.
The book is one long unhinged and misguided tweet, as far as I can tell.
Hillary will never get that it wasn't the six inches not between her legs that cost her the presidency, it was the six inches not between her ears.
walter said...
I thought her most obvious fakery/device/pander was her ain't knowayze tyrred schtick.
I always wondered why her audience put up with that. She was mocking them. Hillary never marched anywhere, she never stood in a line supporting those trying to register to vote. Why should she be tired?
Bruce--
Women aren't always the 'showier' sex in every society all the time. Back around the 1600s, it was the royal men who wore high heels (a fashion started by Persian archer mounted on horseback. The long heels allowed them to stand in their stirrups to aim and fire), and it was the men who showed off their legs while the women wore long gowns. The expression "put your best foot forward" comes from the time when men at fancy parties in their knee britches and silk stockings would stand in such a way to as to attract the feminine gaze.
Really, say what you want about how unfairly women are treated, but no non-female presidential loser has gotten the post-election adulation she has.
I think Hillary is setting things back for women through this WTF Happened tour. It is childish and unseemly. As the first female nominee, she is setting a nasty precedent. Is she doing this cuz women do this, or just Hillary does this?
It is also just another ruse for her to keep raking in speaking fees. She has no shame.
In Boston the other day, she vowed to stay in the center of the ongoing debates. She won’t be going away anytime soon.
In Boston the other day, she vowed to stay in the center of the ongoing debates. She won’t be going away anytime soon.
Obama is doing the same thing. It may be a left thing. They don't want to give up the power and get a job.
What would they do ?
there probably is some male privilege some places, but much of it is because males, on average, do a better job there, and that is at least partially probably because they can expend more resources in that area.
I think you are on to something there.
Years ago, I gave my wife a copy of a book that is still in print and I think did a pretty good job. It's called Why Men Are the Way They Are.
I’m not sure it’s a power or money thing anymore. Possibly simply an addiction to adulation. It keeps getting fed.
But Hillary IS authentic. She's an authentic fake.
I have never wished ill or a gruesome fate upon another human, but if there is a God, and if there are lightning bolts ....
Makeup can’t change becalmed Borderline Personality Disorder.
"But I didn't tame my tongue. . . " Wasn't that Huma's job?
Hi-yo!
It's not what you do to look how you look. It's whether you think your look/image matters more than your substance.
Hilldog is so fucking transparent. Every whine she squeals is crushed with an obvious one-line rebuttal.
I'd been thinking all along that Mary Beard is at least a halfway-decent historian who wrote at least a halfway decent book or two.
How disappointing to think she was going to get anything remotely resembling "the truth" out of the inveterate, manipulative liar and narcissistic drama queen Clinton.
Comments are correct a man's suit is meant to be indistinguishable for other men's suits. It's an easy and simple way to dress, think military. A man's taste in ties may be the only thing that is differentiating. A well fitted suit is like wearing pajamas all day especially if it is bespoke.
The shinny crap worn by many a hipster or in the media with the short coat , low rise and tight trousers does look like one has borrowed their young brother's suit for the senior prom.
They are "hey look at my junk and crack of my ass" suits.
"Skinny crap", sorry
Anyone seen my reading glasses?
Blogger Mac McConnell said...
“Comments are correct a man's suit is meant to be indistinguishable for other men's suits. It's an easy and simple way to dress, think military. A man's taste in ties may be the only thing that is differentiating. A well fitted suit is like wearing pajamas all day especially if it is bespoke.”
Not completely indistinguishable. Some colors and patterns sometimes have different implications. Mallory in his “Dress for Success” book looked at class differences in male suits. Green and brown were associated with working class, while gray was associated with upper middle class. Blue was fairly universal, except that pin stripes were again more associated with upper middle class. Black for funerals and white for summer, except maybe in the south. Which means, really, that you really don’t have much choice in the matter. Brown and green are essentially out for relatively conservative law firms, leaving blue and gray. Shirt collars and cuffs seem also standardized in a market segment. Which leaves ties - except that they also are class markers.
These things are not universal though - the last law firm I was in had a large Las Vegas office, and there the dress rules were quite different. Expect that it is much more similar to Hollywood. Show business. The dress there tended to be expensive casual. Suits were mostly worn tieless, and tended to be notably more expensive than you would see in the other offices.
Which gets me to the other thing here - many men do look at the suits worn by other men to identify subtle class and status indicators, looking at, for example fit and material. If you are used to bespoken suits, you will recognize such. And ditto for wool over polyester.
Bruce Hayden
Mallory is correct on the economic class angle, but that's like stating the obvious, like the wealthy don't have living rooms full of Ethan Allen faux early American furniture.
A lot of what the color of a suit has to do with what region I is from or as you say what's allowable at work. We are not talking about sports coat, a whole different animal. A true brown suit should be warn by a man that doesn't look like Gregory Peck, other wise one is bound to look like a pile of dog shit with shoes. Shades of tan, from British to light, see Obama tan suit, is exceptionable especially in warm weather or the South, also see seersucker.
Green as a shade of olive are OK. Lime green leisure suits with patent white belt and shoes is called a "Full Topekan".
When I worked in clothing regardless of what a young graduate wanted, I would always flip them to a charcoal or navy worsted suit, or both. It didn't matter if their father worked at the mill or was an oil baron. Wardrobes are built, buy trad / Ivy clothing and you'll save money in the long run.
Mallory is a good guide. Esquire and even Playboy once were, but that was many decades ago.
The key to success is sincerity: once you can fake that you've got it made.
It is true that women are judged on their looks more harshly, but men are judged even more harshly on their income. Some women skip entirely over the financial struggle by marrying a prince (metaphorically speaking). Only a tiny fraction of men marry money (and then they are looked down on).
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