December 27, 2017

"One of the dangers of the internet is that people can have entirely different realities. They can be cocooned in information that reinforces their current biases."

That's Barack Obama, sounding like he's been reading Scott Adams's book.*

Obama was getting interviewed by Prince Harry... so it was When Harry Met Barack.

Obama bounced from his observation that we live in "entirely different realities" to groping for a solution. He got as far as articulating "the question":
“The question has to do with how do we harness this technology in a way that allows a multiplicity of voices, allows a diversity of views, but doesn’t lead to a Balkanization of society and allows ways of finding common ground.”
Harness this technology? Is that a euphemism for censorship?

Diversity without Balkanization, common ground with multiplicity... It's much easier to articulate that abstraction than to do anything to get there. I myself like the middle ground, but I think few people do. Most people go to one side or the other, and I think that's basically how human society works. There's a tendency toward dualism.
_______________________

* One of the main ideas in Scott Adams's book "Win Bigly" is "Two Movies on One Screen... the phenomenon in which observers can see the same information and interpret it as supporting two entirely different stories." For example:
When the presidential election of 2016 was over, reality split into two movies. Trump supporters believed that they had elected a competent populist to “drain the swamp” and make America great again. Their preferred media sources agreed. But anti-Trumpers had been force-fed, by both the mainstream media and Clinton’s campaign, a fire hose of persuasion that said Trump was the next Hitler. In effect, the Trump supporters and the anti-Trumpers woke up in different movies. One movie is a disaster movie and the other is an inspirational story.

The fascinating thing about this situation is each of us can operate in the world and do the things we need to do to survive. You and I can both go shopping, both drive cars, both have jobs and friends. Living in completely different realities is our normal way of living....
ADDED: I'm using the word "dualism" not in sense of mind and body, but simply "The condition or state of being dual or consisting of two parts; twofold division; duality." That's the OED, which points me to Ralph Waldo Emerson, who wrote:
POLARITY, or action and reaction, we meet in every part of nature; in darkness and light; in heat and cold; in the ebb and flow of waters; in male and female; in the inspiration and expiration of plants and animals; in the equation of quantity and quality in the fluids of the animal body; in the systole and diastole of the heart; in the undulations of fluids, and of sound; in the centrifugal and centripetal gravity; in electricity, galvanism, and chemical affinity. Superinduce magnetism at one end of a needle, the opposite magnetism takes place at the other end. If the south attracts, the north repels. To empty here, you must condense there. An inevitable dualism bisects nature, so that each thing is a half, and suggests another thing to make it whole; as, spirit, matter; man, woman; odd, even; subjective, objective; in, out; upper, under; motion, rest; yea, nay.


Whilst the world is thus dual, so is every one of its parts. The entire system of things gets represented in every particle. There is somewhat that resembles the ebb and flow of the sea, day and night, man and woman, in a single needle of the pine, in a kernel of corn, in each individual of every animal tribe. The reaction, so grand in the elements, is repeated within these small boundaries. For example, in the animal kingdom the physiologist has observed that no creatures are favorites, but a certain compensation balances every gift and every defect. A surplusage given to one part is paid out of a reduction from another part of the same creature. If the head and neck are enlarged, the trunk and extremities are cut short.

The theory of the mechanic forces is another example. What we gain in power is lost in time; and the converse. The periodic or compensating errors of the planets is another instance. The influences of climate and soil in political history are another. The cold climate invigorates. The barren soil does not breed fevers, crocodiles, tigers, or scorpions.

The same dualism underlies the nature and condition of man. Every excess causes a defect; every defect an excess. Every sweet hath its sour; every evil its good. Every faculty which is a receiver of pleasure has an equal penalty put on its abuse. It is to answer for its moderation with its life. For every grain of wit there is a grain of folly. For every thing you have missed, you have gained something else; and for every thing you gain, you lose something. If riches increase, they are increased that use them. If the gatherer gathers too much, nature takes out of the man what she puts into his chest; swells the estate, but kills the owner. Nature hates monopolies and exceptions. The waves of the sea do not more speedily seek a level from their loftiest tossing, than the varieties of condition tend to equalize themselves. There is always some levelling circumstance that puts down the overbearing, the strong, the rich, the fortunate, substantially on the same ground with all others. Is a man too strong and fierce for society, and by temper and position a bad citizen, — a morose ruffian, with a dash of the pirate in him;—— nature sends him a troop of pretty sons and daughters, who are getting along in the dame's classes at the village school, and love and fear for them smooths his grim scowl to courtesy. Thus she contrives to intenerate the granite and felspar, takes the boar out and puts the lamb in, and keeps her balance true.

424 comments:

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brylun said...

Inga is just full of the hateful bile, always without facts or evidence: "What little dustdevils whirl in your brains." Ad hominem attacks aren't very persuasive, but if you can't defend your position and it's all you have, then go with it. The Leftist agenda must win out at all costs, by any means necessary, and without facts or evidence.

buwaya said...

I saw Dalrymple's article; he is right as far as British bien-pensants go, but he is not talking about the actual British aristocracy, which was not at all the same thing.

Gahrie said...

And as to the press being the enemy of the people, though a bit melodramtic for my taste, there's a lot of truth to it. Rather than inform us impartially, they clearly have taken sides in our politics

The MSM is definitely a branch of the political Left generally and of the Democratic Party specifically. They show this bias not just in how they cover the news, but also in which stories to cover.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“And what about Monica's blue dress? Inga is crickets.”

What does Menendez and Monica’s blue dress have to do with censorship and President Obama’s discussion with Prince Harry?

Q22 said...

I've always thought Obama's real gift was his ability to use jargon to make himself look smart. This is classic Obama - lots of jargon without actually saying anything.

brylun said...

Inga, you haven't said one thing about Menendez's underage sexual criminal behavior, Bill Clinton's rapes and sexual attacks on young interns, censorship of diverse viewpoints on campuses, Obama's attacks on Rosen, and many other facts that do not support your agenda. Instead call names.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Buwaya Puti wrote:
"If you are an American "peasant", this is why they hate you, and cannot restrain themselves from boxing your ears at every opportunity."
In my opinion, the elites you are talking about believe that they need redemption for America's sins, especially the sin of racism. They continue to believe that Obama gave them that redemption. He was literally their redeemer.
So, if I, as a non-elite, do not see Obama or his supposed redemption as anything special, I am an unrepentant sinner. I cannot even be ignored, I must be cast out. I must be made out to be someone foreign to the political body and forbidden to partake in forming public policy. The soviets called people like me "kulaks."

brylun said...

What does Menendez and Monica’s blue dress have to do with censorship and President Obama’s discussion with Prince Harry?

It's all related to Leftist censorship, which is what Obama wants to implement. See Rosen. Do you have any justification for Obama's actions against Rosen?

Past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior.

buwaya said...

"President talks like an autocratic leader of some third world country"

Most leaders of third world countries, even autocratic ones, do not actually speak like that. The usual case is that they are highly educated products of the local upper classes. They are quite as adept at hypocritical circumlocution as Obama; often much better.

Now, you will get the occasional (very occasional) populist, Hugo Chavez for instance, who does say such things. But this does not really get into their policies. You will find people all over the political map affecting this populist style.
It is rather, I think, a matter of origins.

As for the dismissive statement, it reveals not only an ignorance of third world countries, but a deep contempt for them. The statement itself is an artifact of arrogant prejudice.

Original Mike said...

"[The press] show this bias not just in how they cover the news, but also in which stories to cover."

I am constantly amazed at the stuff they leave out. I don't think I'll ever get over it.

brylun said...

Inga, you know the story about Monica's blue dress? That the MSM would not report it, until Matt Drudge put a picture of the semen-stained dress on his newly minted website? Censorship is what the Leftists want because they are fearful of diversity of opinion.

buwaya said...

"I am an unrepentant sinner. I cannot even be ignored, I must be cast out."

Well, of course you must be cast out, but its not (just) because you disapproved of Obama. They wanted you cast out long before Obama.

buwaya said...

"The MSM is definitely a branch of the political Left generally and of the Democratic Party specifically."

The MSM is an upper-class instrument and has been since, well, Katherine Grahams day.
The original US press was a petit-bourgeois milieu of entrepreneurial characters, short-lived media, a boiling, fermenting stew. When it congealed into a system it became oriented to the US upper class. See Sailer on Katherine Graham.

Jupiter said...

Blogger Mike Sylwester said...

"That was a an excellent comment."

NIK acknowledges that Obama has not so much as a clue, but suggests that it was only proper for him to babble on for a while anyway, since there was a microphone pointed at him. That's an excellent comment?

Gahrie said...

The phrase "the enemy of the people" has a long history that Trump may or may not have known about.

Over the couse of the last century, it has been used repeatedly by dictators and autocrats to delegitimize foreign governments, opposition parties, and dissenters.


It has history that you apparently don't about either. The phrase goes back to ancient Rome.

In modern times it has been generally used by revolutionaries, not autocrats, notably during the French Revolution in the 18th century and the Marxist revolutions of the 20th century.

In the modern U.S. the term has been used by groups such as the Black Panthers and the SDS.

Seems to me that the biggest reason the Left is so butthurt by the term is because Trump appropriated it from them.

brylun said...

Buwaya, I've always thought of Leftists as low-class. Look at Rosie O'Donnell, for example. or Howard Dean. They tend to exhibit a lack of restraint and often resort to violence and profanity.

brylun said...

Another example is that LA psychologist who sent manure to the Treasury Secretary.

Jim at said...

It should go without saying that Inga has no idea.
Strike the remainder.

Jupiter said...

Lewis Wetzel said...
"In my opinion, the elites you are talking about believe that they need redemption for America's sins, especially the sin of racism. They continue to believe that Obama gave them that redemption. He was literally their redeemer."

Mencius Moldbug has described how our modern governing class of Ivy-League elitists is the direct descendant, ideologically and in many cases biologically, of the Puritan Establishment that ruled New England in colonial times and feuded with the more worldy Virginians, whom they finally destroyed, using Abolition as an excuse to take control of and vastly strengthen federal power, effectively conducting a coup against the Union as originally conceived, as a compact between sovereign States. He refers to this monolith as The Cathedral. Somewhere during the last century, they lost their Christian religion almost entirely, but none of their crusading ideological fury.

Michael K said...

Graham, a well-born heiress of the American nomenklatura, is "spun" positively by a liberal Jew, Spielberg, who like most of his kind has drunk the upper-class kool-aid.

have you seen Mark Steyn's speculations on her husband's death?

Born in New York City, the daughter of multimillionaire Eugene Meyer, she grew up privileged. In keeping with her father’s fortune, she graduated from Vassar College, where she was involved with the leftist trends of the day ...

She married Felix Frankfurter’s brilliant law clerk, Philip Graham, who took over running The Post, which her father purchased at a bankruptcy sale. Graham built the paper but became estranged from Kay. She had him committed to a mental hospital, and he was clearly intending divorce when she signed him out and took him for a weekend outing during which he was found shot. His death was ruled a suicide. Within 48 hours, she declared herself the publisher.

That’s the stuff! As the Tribune-Review’s chap has it, Mrs G got her philandering spouse banged up in the nuthouse and then arranged a weekend pass with a one-way ticket. “His death was ruled a suicide.” Lovely touch that. Is it really possible Katharine Graham offed her hubby? Who cares? To those who think the worst problem with the American press is its awful stultifying homogeneity, the Tribune-Review’s deranged perverseness is to be cherished. Give that man a Pulitzer!


That's our Post !

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“I've always thought of Leftists as low-class.”

Here’s a classy woman with a cute shirt inviting Trump to grab her pussy.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
brylun said...

That's it Inga. You and that woman make my point. Or is that woman you?

Trump was just boasting in a guy-to-guy locker room conversation about the state of morals in 2005, with the Howard Stern types and all, and you are obsessed with that, but ignore Bill Clinton's rapes, Monica's semen-stained dress, Menendez's rape of underaged girls, Roman Polanski's rape of underaged girls, and whatever supports your Leftist agenda.

Mike Sylwester said...

Jupiter at 1:54 PM
... it was only proper for him [Obama] to babble on for a while anyway, since there was a microphone pointed at him.

Obama was responding to questions in an interview.

As far as I know, Obama is not pushing any policy to change the Internet significantly so that it "allows ways of finding common ground".

We should not be critical of Obama for responding to some interview questions with platitudes.

There are plenty of real issues to criticize Obama about.

More generally, Now I Know! made some thought-provoking criticisms of this blog.

Michael K said...

That the MSM would not report it, until Matt Drudge put a picture of the semen-stained dress on his newly minted website?

It did not end there in the matter of retribution.

Craig Venter discovered the human genome sequence of bases.

There had n]been a "Human Genome Projectm," funded by the government of course, and it was planning ten years to get the job done.

Venter went the private enterprise way and did it in two years.

Venter viewed the slow pace of progress in the Human Genome project as an opportunity to continue his interest in patenting genes, so he sought funding from the private sector to birth Celera Genomics.[26] The company planned to profit from their work by creating genomic data to which users could subscribe for a fee. The goal consequently put pressure on the public genome program and spurred several groups to redouble their efforts to produce the full sequence. Venter's effort to publish a draft genome of his own DNA won him renown as the second person to sequence the human genome after the public effort, thus making it impossible to patent any of it.

That is actually not true. He was the first but his firm did the sequencing for the semen stain on Monica's dress. Bill Clinton was so unhappy with Venter that he forced him to share the credit with the federal project.

Mary Beth said...

No wonder the anti-Trump people seem so weird. Imagine a disaster movie where you're told a disaster is imminent, but it doesn't come. You start hoping for a little death and destruction, just to break the monotony.

narciso said...

also consider how the significant other of ben bradlee, was as adept with the encantation as Samantha (a practicing wiccan) that's why sally Quinn became the religion editor,

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“That's it Inga. You and that woman make my point. Or is that woman you?”

That woman is a conservative and a Trump supporter who was in attendance at a Trump rally. Since I am not a Trumpist and never was that slovenly overweight low class woman would not be me.

brylun said...

Since I * * * never was that slovenly overweight low class woman would not be me.

Another statement unsupported by any evidence.

Erik said...

"When Harry Met Barack"?!
How about
When Harry Met Barry,
which not only sounds
more like the original
Billy Crystal movie while
using Obama's alternative
first name, but has the
added benefit of rhymin'…

Vance said...

Just look at self-titled "Defender of all womanhood" Inga bashing on another female. She's criticizing her looks, her weight, her class.... a perfect trifecta of sneering leftist smugness. The very same kind of comment that if I made about Rosie O'Donnell, Inga would use to attack me as a sexist pig.

But when Inga is a sexist pig? It's ok, because the lady is only a "Conservative and a Trump Supporter" i.e. not human and thus can be attacked viciously in as demeaning a way as possible.

I'm halfway surprised you didn't call her an Uncle Tom. Heaven knows you would if you could. After all, you are an "enlightened liberal" who therefore is one of the most racist, sexist, crude, disgusting people possible to those you disagree with. Just like you fully endorse violence against Republicans. They aren't people, so it's perfectly ok to shoot and kill them. The spotted snail darter, though, must be protected at all costs! Just like Trigglypuff.

--Vance

Inga...Allie Oop said...

The woman in the picture was discovered by the Guardian‘s Ben Jacobs. She was wearing a shirt to support Donald Trump against criticism that has arisen since a tape of him bragging about “grabbing [women] by the pussy” emerged last week.

The outrage over his statements came from those who insisted his comments amounted to sexual assault. So, it’s worth noting that her shirt — though meant as a joke or commentary on the scandal — actually gives him consent to grab her.

narciso said...

unpeople don't count, in any guise, one wonders if take Jennifer Lawrence, her assumed animus against Weinstein, was redirected for say her role in the hunger games

brylun said...

Again, Inga is ignoring the difference between a 2005 locker room comment and sexual predators like Bill Clinton, Harvey Weinstein, Bob Menendez, Roman Polanski, Al Franken, Matt Lauer, and the rest. Bill Clinton, Harvey Weinstein are particularly aggregious because their conduct was repeated time and again, and ignored by the Left.

Darrell said...

Notice how the Guardian writer can't accurately summarize what the tape said. Just like Little Inga.

buwaya said...

"Ivy-League elitists is the direct descendant, ideologically and in many cases biologically, of the Puritan Establishment"

Exactly so.
Biologically this has been diluted in recent decades, so there aren't THAT many of the original sort anymore, but they certainly have culturally influenced their replacements (like Bloomberg, Spielberg, etc.).

Michael said...

Inga

Would it be possible for you to simply cut and paste the internet for us? Thanks.

buwaya said...

Part of the new Puritan affect is to make much of style, and ignore substance.

The Katherine Graham example is perfect in this case.
The outrage is all about what is said, or the WAY something is said. That is the real violation of the laws of the universe, in this world-view.
Or even the way someone looks.

Not about what someone does.

I Callahan said...

Remember when Nina Burleigh said she’d service Bill Clinton if he continued to push for “women’s rights”? Apparently, Inga doesn’t.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“Again, Inga is ignoring the difference between a 2005 locker room comment and sexual predators like Bill Clinton, Harvey Weinstein, Bob Menendez, Roman Polanski, Al Franken, Matt Lauer, and the rest. Bill Clinton, Harvey Weinstein are particularly aggregious because their conduct was repeated time and again, and ignored by the Left.”

The sexual assaults and assaulters concerning all these people were discussed ad nauseum in many blogpost comments sections over the last few weeks, perhaps you should go and read some of them. I’m not going to waste my time rehashing them here.

Brylun, I’m beginning to think you’re very dense. The picture was posted as an example of a low class Trumpist in response to your comment below. You have trouble going from point A to point B? Dustdevils whirring in your brain I guess. Now I have another function to attend. Au revoir, have fun Trumpites.

“I've always thought of Leftists as low-class.”

buwaya said...

Leftists were not low-class. Or not the leadership or most of the intelligentsia.

There are exceptions - two that stand out for instance, are Jack London and Maxim Gorky, who were both from very humble origins.

Leftists, or their leaders, were generally haut-bourgeois.
Often very wealthy.
There would have been no Marx (who was himself born to a wealthy family that gave him an expensive education) without Engels, also from a wealthy family, who supported him.

Michael K said...

The thread was pretty interesting for a while but it seems to be deteriorating.

The Puritan descendent theory came mostly from Joseph Bottum in an essay and a book.

Which makes it all the stranger that, somewhere around 1975, the main stream of Protestantism ran dry. In truth, there are still plenty of Methodists around. Baptists and Presbyterians, too—Lutherans, Episcopalians, and all the rest; millions of believing Christians who remain serious and devout. For that matter, you can still find, ­soldiering on, some of the institutions they established in their Mainline glory days: the National Council of Churches, for instance, in its God Box up on New York City’s Riverside Drive, with the cornerstone laid, in a grand ceremony, by President Eisenhower in 1958. But those institutions are corpses, even if they don’t quite realize that they’re dead. The great confluence of Protestantism has dwindled to a trickle over the past thirty years, and the Great Church of America has come to an end.

What is left is the Puritan intolerance.

Notice, for instance, how quickly these days any attempt to speak in the old-fashioned voice of moral criticism turns sour and bitter—segueing into anti-Americanism, regardless of its intentions. Many Americans are profoundly patriotic, no doubt, and many Americans are profoundly critical of their country. We are left, however, with a great problem in combining the two, and that problem was bequeathed to us by the death of Protestant America—by the collapse of the churches that were once both the accommodating help and the criticizing prophet of the American ­experiment.

Interesting essay.

stevew said...

'The fascinating thing about this situation is each of us can operate in the world and do the things we need to do to survive. You and I can both go shopping, both drive cars, both have jobs and friends. Living in completely different realities is our normal way of living....'

So if this is true then this duality of Trump and the balkanization of our politics has no negative effect on (most of) us in our daily lives. We are able to function, live our lives as we see fit. Thus all the talk of how good or bad this or that politician or policy may be is just entertainment, noise in the signal, chaff to the wheat of life.

I feel better already.

-sw

Big Mike said...

There aren't just two realities; there are many. People who work in government, in academia, in high tech industries, and millenniels who don't have real jobs with real responsibilities see one reality, which is by the most unreal of the realities. The people who surround me here in the Shenandoah Valley, who work with their hands, who know their neighbors and who can be counted on to help out when needed, and who may be only one paycheck from disaster, they see a more real reality. Inner city blacks see still a third reality, one which is all too real. Why they ally themselves with the first group is beyond me but that the do is yet another reality.

Sam L. said...

We know Barry's in his own cocoon.

buwaya said...

"So if this is true then this duality of Trump and the balkanization of our politics has no negative effect on (most of) us"

This is not correct.
The greater stream of change certainly does affect the regular person in his daily affairs. This can be seen statistically through measures of median standards of living, of social mobility, of production and consumption, of fertility, education, small business formation and survival, etc. - all instruments that should be on ones personal dashboard but are not.

The balkanization of politics is a downstream consequence, not a cause.
Partisan complaints about Trumps statements are trivialities.

Mark said...

Very happy not to have to hear that voice or read his words any more. Actually, I quit listening/reading years ago -- a lot easier than becoming fixated and obsessed to the point of mental derangement -- but before I had to actively avoid it. Now it is much easier without it being there in the first place.

Drago said...

Inga: "The sexual assaults and assaulters concerning all these people were discussed ad nauseum in many blogpost comments sections over the last few weeks..."

LOL

Yeah! Can't we just "MoveOn" from specific stuff dems/lefties actually did and talk about "talk" instead?

I mean, once something that reflects poorly on the dems has been discussed once, it becomes "**old news" (Clinton Copyright) and must not ever be mentioned again. Hillary is a master at that one.

Let's face it, Inga and her lefty pals literally had no problems with obama spying on James Rosen and his family as well as others well, that's all "water under the bridge", isn't it?

Even the NYT had to admit obama did this in order to tee up potential future criticism of Trump....of course the NYT really didn't mind so much about the spying on journalists when it happened. Nope. It was a lefty "Clinton should have resigned" redux.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/opinion/sunday/if-donald-trump-targets-journalists-thank-obama.html?mtrref=www.google.com&gwh=B82EC1987505B2FF1DD44CEA59322469&gwt=pay&assetType=opinion

Michael K said...

"The greater stream of change certainly does affect the regular person in his daily affairs."

We are in consequential times.

An interesting essay on that very topic.

Ike relied on Brad’s predictable discretion in promoting him over his former superior, the volatile George S. Patton. It is difficult to cite any major military decision that Bradley made in the critical year 1944 that proved either inspired or shrewd. The failure to close the Falaise Gap was largely his own. Bradley appeared resentful of and inconvenienced by, rather than supportive of, Patton’s wild advance of August 1944. Bradley never foresaw the problems waiting for his subordinate, General Courtney Hodges, in the Hürtgen Forest. He seemed bewildered by German thrust in the first few hours of the Battle of the Bulge, and initially had little idea of how to repel the assault. Bradley’s general feeling of inferiority prevented him from appreciating the genius of the cruder Patton, much less the valuable professional competence of the otherwise egomaniac and abrasive British General Bernard Montgomery.

Since few on the left have worked at and built businesses, they do not appreciate those talents.

The few who have seem more attached to the opportunities of crony capitalism.


tcrosse said...

Obama was the beau idéal of the Faculty Lounge.

Browndog said...

Interesting blog post. It could have been a very interesting, enlightening thread.

Some 200 comments ago a resident liberal turn the whole thing into shit.

What could have been....

eddie willers said...

That's our Post !

Democracy Dies in a Sanitarium
Apparently by suicide.

M Jordan said...

@Meade

“I'm pleasantly touched that a Progressive Democrat would consider it to be my (her) money. Thank you.”

A dignified response to a complete asshole. Why not just call him one? Sometimes decency is overrated.

bagoh20 said...

words or action
takers or makers
style or substance
individuals or groups
left or right

Jupiter said...

Mike Sylwester said...

"More generally, Now I Know! made some thought-provoking criticisms of this blog."

NIK's "thought-provoking criticisms" amount to the baseless assertion that Althouse is deeply and virulently conservative. This is not "thought-provoking", it is "brain-dead". The woman voted for Obama, for Christ's sake. When I check out Althouse, and there's nothing interesting, I go elsewhere. When these Soros-funded vermin arrive, they have a quota to meet, so they whine about how Althouse is a mad-dog Right-Wing Trump enthusiast. What a crock. If Althouse is consistently pushing a political theme, it is feminism, a theme with which most of her commentariat are decidedly unsympathetic. The Lefties simply can't cope with the fact that Althouse is willing to let us post arguments she might not agree with. That is beyond their comprehension, as is evidenced by their frequent demands that she censor some idea they find unsettling.

mockturtle said...

Michael K: Have you read, A Genius for War by Carlo d'Este? I've read at least ten books on Patton and this one is the best, IMO.

It probably takes both inspired and uninspired leadership to run a war. But the inspired do most of the winning and the uninspired don't make good reading.

Drago said...

The reality is that no conservative can live a typical life and not be confronted with lefty viewpoints/opinions/ideas etc in multiple venues and ways.

It is quite easy for a liberal or lefty to exclude any and all conservative opinion from their "bubble".

There are a gajillion Pauline Kael's running about.

Michael K said...

" Have you read, A Genius for War by Carlo d'Este? "

Yes, I have a Patton library and the recent VDH book< "The Savior Generals" is also excellent. He compares Patton to Sherman, who is my all time favorite US general. I have VDH's book on WWII but have not yet read it.

I also have a Sherman library and a Churchill library,.

I just finished Chernow's "Grant" and it is good. He is a bit negative about Sherman but I was OK with that.

I also have a specific book on the Falaise Gap and Bradley's role.

ccscientist said...

Was just talking with someone who thought the new tax bill got rid of obamacare (it does not, just the mandate), that the tax bill was horrific--but was surprised that I would probably get a $2000 tax cut. She knew nothing about it but her thought-leaders said it was horrible so she fell in line.
My engineer friends are willing to be convinced on any topic because they deal with how things actually work.

Jon Ericson said...

Chuck,
The recent actions you took were helpful.
Thanks.

Sydney said...

I apologize if this was asked already, but does Prince Harry work for the BBC?

mockturtle said...

words or action
takers or makers
style or substance
individuals or groups
left or right


Bagoh sums it up nicely.

Michael K said...

I have been saying for months that the solution was to make Obamacare voluntary.,

The tax bill does that.

The only people who like Obamacare are the Medicaid recipients.

The next step is to block grant that program to governors.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

America needs a Left Wing like a tuna needs a Harley.

Let's hear it for Darrell! Representing the tuna fish section of America.

Smells fishy.

Real Americans don't diss the bikers.

Meade said...

Real Americans don't diss tuna, Charlie.

Michael K said...

There goes the thread.

Meade said...

Make this thread great again.

brylun said...

Back to the Left is low-class point: Sheila Jackson Lee takes teacher's first class seat on United airlines flight.

Buwaya, you may be right that the Left's heritage is with the upper class, but I'm speaking about the actions of the Left: taking someone's seat because you can is a low class act.

Just about everything the Left does is low class.

Including protests at a person's home. Or hiring paid protesters. There are a million examples of the Left's low class.

And the opposite example: Mead taking the high road regarding the comment on his investments. That's high class.

The Left just does so many things that are not admirable.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Again, Inga is ignoring the difference between a 2005 locker room comment and sexual predators like Bill Clinton, Harvey Weinstein, Bob Menendez, Roman Polanski, Al Franken, Matt Lauer, and the rest. Bill Clinton, Harvey Weinstein are particularly aggregious because their conduct was repeated time and again, and ignored by the Left.

I'm not buying it. I say any one of you Roy Moore-supporting right-wing Republikooks could walk right in on President Hairpiece raping a 12-year old girl (other than his daughter) and totally just look the other way. How do I know this? Because as he said, he "could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and (not) lose voters." So who was wrong? He or his voters? He seems to know his voters, doesn't he? I hear all the time from y'all how he feels you all deep down in his soul. His lies are your lies. You are in a Vulcan mind-meld of vicious, empty, greedy, delusional narcissistic right-wing twattery. Clinton felt your pain and this lunatic feels your hatred. Your anger. And your contempt and resentment.

So which one of you is right? The Trumpster who proclaimed his exculpation for murder? Or the supporters who say, "Awww... this is just another one of his really awesome but totally hyperbolic lies! We trust him! He wouldn't really do it!"

But as with Trump, we know the right-wing doesn't say what they mean or believe, either. I'm pretty sure that if Trump DID gun someone down in broad daylight they'd summon themselves and their minions to the chat-boards and insist on figuring out a way to tell everyone that the victim had it coming.

It's just how your minds work. Or what you call "minds," anyway.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Real Americans don't diss tuna, Charlie.

We already lost the economic battle to the Japanese tuna fishers in the 1980s. Michael Keaton. Gung Ho.

The big battle nowadays is how we're going to lose to the Chinese. Surely the Republicans can't remove workers' rights fast enough to put us on the level with their slave labor in time for 2020.

brylun said...

Toothless is in a fantasy world again, with his images of a 12-year old getting raped. Isn't that the MO of Roman Polanski?

Needing to point out again that conflating 40-year old unproven charges that are denied with Bill Clinton's rape and sexual predation and Harvey Weinstein atrocious acts on 50+ women is a sign of more fantasy.

brylun said...

Hey, Toothless, care to comment on Sheila Jackson Lee?

I didn't think so...

Lewis Wetzel said...

Toothless, Roy Moore disputes all of the charges against him. He cannot be classed with proven sexual predators like Weinstein or Bill Clinton.
Believe it or not, it is not illegal for a man in his early thirties to date a woman in her late teens. I know, crazy, isn't it?
Do you avoid making rational distinctions because you are unable to do so, or because it makes smear jobs more difficult?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Make this thread great again.

Hmmmm... If it ever stood a chance I'm sure it wasn't on the shoulders of 5:21 PM's censorious cowardice.

What happened to all those strong right-wingers? All I hear from the most ardent Trumpists these days is how delicate they are and how much they wilt in the face of challenges no less rhetorical than the ones they mount.

Which is kind of ironic given how indecent their leader Trump is.

The vulgar leading the snivelers. Who'd have thunk it? ;-)

brylun said...

To the Leftists like Toothless, facts don't matter, only the results, by any means necessary.

Big Mike said...

@Michael K, your book “War Stories,” is it only available via Kindle?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Toothless is in a fantasy world again, with his images of a 12-year old getting raped. Isn't that the MO of Roman Polanski?

I was thinking more along the lines of Roy Moore. Were you on his legal team when it came to the case of Roy Moore vs. The Local Mall? Pretty funny that a judge couldn't even figure out how to keep himself from getting banned by the premium outlet site for Payless Shoe Source, Best Buy, Kohls, etc. I guess he really was very unfairly ganged up on, right?

brylun said...

Because they have lost in political races across the spectrum of offices throughout the country, the Leftists are reduced to taunting and mocking rational folks with their fantasies of rape of a 12-year old.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

@Michael K, your book “War Stories,” is it only available via Kindle?

This is one way to pay tribute to the "K."

The other way is by leaving a nickel in the place under his pillow at night where he keeps his dentures. Lol!

brylun said...

More of Toothless and his fantasies, just like Inga, making things up without facts or evidence.

But Toothless, we all know the semen on the blue dress was Bill's. Right? That's a fact, isn't it?

And your buddy Harvey, his acts cannot be denied, not even by you, right?

brylun said...

More of Toothless and his personal attacks. When you don't have facts, just make them up and attack people personally. That's low class!

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Toothless, Roy Moore disputes all of the charges against him. He cannot be classed with proven sexual predators like Weinstein or Bill Clinton.

That's nice.

The voters, the country, his accusers and THE MALL say otherwise.

You know. The mall. Very selective locale, that. Where cachet is everything.

Some say that Alabama mall was harder to get into than the newest celebrity chef-owned Michelin restaurant in Midtown. Or the club in Vegas with the $500 per bottle drinks.

But poor ole Roy Moore was just somehow beneath their standards. Amidst all the sweatpants-wearing, obese, over-eaters and teenagers flocking to their corridors.

You guys are hilarious!

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

But Toothless, we all know the semen on the blue dress was Bill's. Right? That's a fact, isn't it?

I don't dispute it. What's your point?

In fact, Bill Maher had three great names for it, in response to a journalist's plea for a euphemism when reporting on that "semen-stained dress."

Presidue!

Arkansauce!

The Campaign Trail!

You people need a sense of humor. And some common sense. Some battles just aren't worth fighting. Stop making your right-wing politicians lost causes. Your positions are already lost in cause enough.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Michael K wrote:
"Bill Clinton was so unhappy with Venter that he forced him to share the credit with the federal project."
Clinton knew that he had left a stain on the dress, yet he insisted on genetic testing. Why? No journalist has bothered to ask him, probably because an answer would make Clinton look like even more of a cad. In the absence of good journalism, I am allowed to speculate freely. I suppose that Clinton hoped for a technical glitch that would show a mismatch or give no information at all. Then he could continue to lie & deny what he knew was true. What a disgusting POS Bill Clinton was.

brylun said...

There goes Toothless, again making up stories without a basis in fact.

Michael K said...

"@Michael K, your book “War Stories,” is it only available via Kindle?"

Yes but don't tell Ritmo.

My wife wants me to shop it to agents but probably not much of a market. I do have to do some more editing.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

To the Leftists like Toothless, facts don't matter, only the results, by any means necessary.

Facts?

Results?

Like a wall, for instance? Or the psychological security it will never satisfy?

Are these facts:

“When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists."

Since when do Trump supporters care about facts? The only thing I can see that they care about are their very irrational fears, and how to stoke them.


brylun said...

Toothless, you're a lost cause. You can't escape your fantasies.

Good that you admit Bill Clinton's atrocities. I guess it's so old now that you can crawl out of denial, just like NY Sen. Gillibrand.

What about Matt Lauer, Harvey Weinstein, Al Franken, Roman Polanski, and the rest of the Leftist predators?

And what about Sheila Jackson Lee? Care to defend her actions?

brylun said...

Right Toothless. The borders of countries are meaningless to you.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Yes but don't tell Ritmo.

Good. I won't listen anyway.

Besides, I'm done with e-readers. They're too unnatural. Much prefer the physical feel of actual pages in my hands. Hopefully acid-free paper. Forestry Stewardship Council approved.

brylun said...

Why have countries at all? One world government, run by Leftists! Just like Venezuela, where everyone is starving.

Lewis Wetzel said...

"Your positions are already lost in cause enough."
Then what are you doing here? You aren't doing any credit to your wacky, far left cause. Retire on your laurels, Thou Hast Conquered, Toothless Revolutionary!
And you completely missed the point of my exquisitely reasoned 5:40. Your evidence against Moore consists of nothing, really. Testimony not given under threat of perjury & the opinion of a bare majority of voters. You couldn't convict a person of jaywalking on that, you want to use it to convict a citizen of rape.
Leftists always end up betraying their principles. Every single time.

brylun said...

Yearbook forgeries, and much more! Toothless touts trash!

Drago said...

TTR: "Let's hear it for Darrell! Representing the tuna fish section of America"

Nothing wrong with that, though I did once have an "unfortunate" experience at a tuna cannery in San Diego some years back.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Right Toothless. The borders of countries are meaningless to you.

We were talking about facts. Not fears. Whether fears of insufficiently "impenetrable" borders or otherwise.

Now... facts.

Does Mexico's government "send" its people to us? Is that a factual assertion?

Are those people (or immigrants in general) criminals and rapists... or at least at rates that approach, let alone exceed, the rest of the population?

Was Trump actually trying to curtail only "illegal" immigration, and NOT trying to decrease other documented entry?

Even his Muslim ban was a flop. Why are the Saudis off the hook? Why are Iranians who've not committed an act on our soil included?

It's all feel-good propaganda for the pro-hate crowd... so of course the details don't actually matter to them.

And that damn wall won't ever be built, either. If it were, what else could he rally as strongly around?

For a lawyer, which means I assume you're an educated man, you sound awfully naive. That's not a personal attack, but an observation that I find troubling for your sake.

Drago said...

TTR: "Like a wall, for instance? Or the psychological security it will never satisfy?"

I don't know. The Israeli's seem to think their wall is working well. I cannot attest to whatever psychological needs were met in addition to the tangible results.

brylun said...

Facts:

ICE conducted 143,470 arrests and 226,119 removals in the past fiscal year. Of that, 110,568 of those arrests came from the start of the Trump administration through the end of the fiscal year. That’s up from 77,806 arrests in the entire fiscal year 2016. Removals increased by 37 percent from fiscal year 2016.

The number of deportations declined by 6 percent, 240,255 in fiscal year 2016 to 226,119 in fiscal year 2017. ICE attributes the decline to more border apprehensions.

Of the arrests, 92 percent, or 101,722, were of illegal immigrants who had criminal convictions or illegally re-entered the country.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Why have countries at all? One world government, run by Leftists!

Oh, there we go! Very factual and not hyperbolic, paranoid or conspiratorial at all. WHat's next? Theories about the Illuminati? Or is it in vogue once more to promote their predecessor Jewish cabal conspiracies?

Yep, Venezuela. The ONLY country ever run by anyone not on the right. Western Europe doesn't exist, either. I forgot. And you call foul when we point to Nazi Germany as a failed experiment in right-wing uber-nationalism. Well, at least Hitler didn't like them "foreigners," right? Totally about the nation-state. Even when the threat to it must have been coming from within. Or probably from a bunch of unarmed "low status" undesirables in Poland.

brylun said...

Fact: 92 percent of foreign nationals in prison are illegals.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I don't know. The Israeli's seem to think their wall is working well.

Oh I know. Our situation is totally the same as theirs.

Minus all that length and cost stuff. And terrorism. And per population terrorist deaths.

Try harder.

brylun said...

From the Economist: How immigration is changing the Swedish welfare state.

brylun said...

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/06/economist-explains-20

Inga...Allie Oop said...

Speaking of censorship.... I suppose the Trumpists here think this is just peachy.

President Donald Trump on Wednesday suggested that NBC’s broadcast license should be pulled as punishment for the network's reporting on his national security meetings, opening a new front in the president’s long-running battle with the press.

NBC News published a report Wednesday morning stating that Trump had surprised his national security advisers by proposing a nearly tenfold increase in the U.S. nuclear arsenal during a July meeting. The meeting was what allegedly led Secretary of State Rex Tillerson to call Trump a “moron” — a comment that NBC first reported last week.

Trump lashed out at NBC, appearing to make a threat that is not even possible, given that the Federal Communications Commission doesn’t directly license networks.

“Fake @NBCNews made up a story that I wanted a ‘tenfold’ increase in our U.S. nuclear arsenal. Pure fiction, made up to demean. NBC = CNN!” Trump wrote on Twitter, equating the two TV news outlets he has most often lashed out against. “With all of the Fake News coming out of NBC and the Networks, at what point is it appropriate to challenge their License? Bad for country!”


https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/11/trump-nbc-broadcast-license-243667

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Fact: 92 percent of foreign nationals in prison are illegals.

Source this BS attempt to whitewash the incarceration state and invert the issue.

It's like saying 92% of Auschwitz residents were Jews. Proves nothing.

Lemme guess: You also think the high number of non-violent drug offenders in prison means that we're not "tough enough" on non-violent drug offenses?

This attorney general really has his priorities straight. Straighter than the producers of Reefer Madness!

Well, at least we know where you folks get your views on statism from. From the way you pursue it to meet your ends. Nice.

brylun said...

"Many refugees do not have the skills or connections to enter the workforce. Sweden has one of the largest gaps in employment between native and foreign-born workers. This damages the welfare state not only because fewer foreign-born workers pay taxes, but also because some Swedes, like the cynical cashier in Malmo, resent their new neighbours and lose trust in the state."

Michael said...

Try swanning into Mexico or Canada on a tourist visa and then settle in. Get a job. Raise a family. Send kids to school. Nice countries both. Lovely people.

Very strict laws. Harsh in many ways. No possible way either country could or would end up with millions of gringos enjoying the sun or the ice.

Michael K said...

Man you guys sure seem to want to feed trolls.

Anybody who has ever seen an informational comment from Ritmo died year ago.

We're off to see the Churchill movie.

I expect to see 400 comments when we get back, 300 from Ritmo and not a bit of sense in any of them.

brylun said...

Inga touts fake news: "NBC News published a report Wednesday morning stating that Trump had surprised his national security advisers by proposing a nearly tenfold increase in the U.S. nuclear arsenal."

And, yes, I remember when the fake news publications were sure that Tillerson was resigning. Right Inga?

Drago said...

Inga: "Speaking of censorship.... I suppose the Trumpists here think this is just peachy"

Inga simply refuses to address obama specific actions in siccing our law enforcement and intelligence agencies on reporters who toe the proper line.

The reason for Inga's failure to address this issue as well as obama going after and prosecuting more whistle-blowers than all other Presidents combined is that it would not be helpful to her latest narrative ploy that Trump is some unique threat to the media.

Obviously.

brylun said...

Ok, Dr. K, you're right, I'm just wasting my time. Bye!

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I expect to see 400 comments when we get back, 300 from Ritmo and not a bit of sense in any of them.

Translation: Ritmo will never give in to our FEAR! He just doesn't seem to understand how inspiring and uplifting our paranoias are!

Anyway, I had no comment before #250, so it's hard to see how 400 - 300 equals 250. Maybe it's more of that Republican revenue-AND-deficit decreasing math!

That Churchill movie will be ravaged by kids with lightsabers waiting in line for a movie about our future, not our past.

Drago said...

"And, yes, I remember when the fake news publications were sure that Tillerson was resigning. Right Inga?"

The media produce 1 to 3 of these fake news stories every week that never materialize. Naturally, the media never goes back to say hey, you know what, that never happened! They just move on to the next weeks fake news.

It really doesn't matter anyway since, according to the left, Trump and his policies have already literally murdered all 857 Million Americans.....

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“Inga touts fake news: "NBC News published a report Wednesday morning stating that Trump had surprised his national security advisers by proposing a nearly tenfold increase in the U.S. nuclear arsenal."”

Brylun, earlier I said I was beginning to think you were dense, now I’m quite certain of it, plus not everything is fake news that doesn’t come from Gateway Pundit, Breitbart, WND and the like. You seem to be very deeply affected by epistemic closure and Trump sychophancy.

#SAD

buwaya said...

"Minus all that length and cost stuff. "

The Israeli length of wall/fence per capita or per unit GDP is enormously more than the US Southern border wall/fence would be.

Back of the envelope -
Israel total land borders - 1120 km
US Southern border - 3140 km

Population (total pop) per km of troublesome border -

Israel - 7,610
US - 102,866

The Israeli "wall" is more than an order of magnitude more "unaffordable" than the equivalent for the US would be (or is).

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Very strict laws. Harsh in many ways. No possible way either country could or would end up with millions of gringos enjoying the sun or the ice.

Ok so we want Canada's/Mexico's immigration strictness but none of the former's nice treatment of workers and none of the latter's lack of uptightness.

Got it. Sounds entirely underwhelming and pointless. But then, we're talking about Republican priorities.

Lewis Wetzel said...

"Western Europe doesn't exist, either." Western Europe is run by varieties of "neo-liberals." Socialists disown them because they believe that the means of production should remain in private hands. You should read a Britannica article on political economy, TR. The subjects you are most passionate about are the subjects about which you are most ignorant. That is no coincidence.

Michael K said...

"kids with lightsabers waiting in line for a movie about our future, not our past."

Those who do not know the past are condemned to fuck up the future.

Or something like that.

I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed transsexual.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The Israeli length of wall/fence per capita or per unit GDP is enormously more than the US Southern border wall/fence would be.

And the difference in per capita lives saved was/will be?

But Israelis value their lives.

Americans value their rich peoples' money.

Which you can't do without giving the poor something minor to fear instead. Mexicans will do! Fear the Mexicans!

The foreign nationals in prison weren't here legally! Wow!

Lewis Wetzel said...

TR has reached the stage where he is flailing against phantoms (his 6:22). Perhaps he should change his moniker to "General Jack T. Ripper."

Michael said...

If anyone thinks the Mexican government lacks "uptightness" they should pop on down and see for themselves. It's Mexico after all so you can do whatever you want. Fire up a joint on the corner and observe the lack of "uptightness." LOL

buwaya said...

The Trump argument is quite simple - more labor supply reduces labor costs.
So free US labor imports reduce labor costs, reducing pay.
This is not a terribly controversial argument in most economics fields.
It is supply and demand. Even Marx used this.

It is very hard to argue against, on the face of it.

There are quibbles in its application to US immigration situations, ranging from quality issues (i.e., foreigners are better for this or that, because of xyz).
These may be justified in particular cases, I can think of several, but certainly not in most. There is an argument that if US labor costs go too high then the US would become less competitive, and would (moreso) outsource services or industries would move. Fair point. This all makes for a good argument with reason on all sides.

But we are not having a reasonable argument on this, because it has been banned by the MSM. They will not entertain a reasonable argument, simply not. So you are left with what you have. Do not blame Trump, blame your elites who will not come clean with your people. This is an argument that cannot happen.

Among other things, imagine how things will go if, on the TV news, there are flat (and true) statements along the lines of "we refuse to pay you more because then we will be more likely to outsource".

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Those who do not know the past are condemned to fuck up the future.

We already know about the past. That story's been told hundreds of times. And guess what? Churchill's rhetoric was a bit different Trump's. Or Hitler's. Fearing foreigners wasn't really his game now, was it?

As for the future, your party is deficit-spending its way to the first trillionaire. When in history did diverting public resources almost exclusively to the already-wealthy ever work out for good? When?

And your party's anti-science, too. Except when that science can be used to the benefit of protecting his own property interests.

Your president is a rank charlatan of the highest order. A total liar. He elevates bullshit artistry to a fine art. When are you going to acknowledge the obvious? You know this can't go anywhere good.

buwaya said...

"And the difference in per capita lives saved was/will be?"

Different purposes, to a degree. If Israel had US-style loose borders they would be even more quickly swamped by "refugees" - all those people swarming into Libya and Morocco trying to get into the EU - heck, half of Egypt would be in Israel in a week.

"Americans value their rich peoples' money."

The point of the US wall is its poor peoples money. The point is the supply of labor. Poor people want less competition.
This is a US class war, where the poor(er) are FOR the wall.

buwaya said...

Mexicans are not "uptight"?
Which Mexicans are those?
There are no hordes of Mexican hippies out there.

My wife is 50% Mexican.
Maybe you should check with her lot re uptight.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Different purposes, to a degree.

So tell it to Drago, then. You're making my point. Theirs had some substantive security concerns and benefits to it. Ours is mostly for fear and to distract the working poor from how much attention Trump and his Republicans prefer to shower on the already-wealthy and powerful instead.

FullMoon said...

Somebody said:
It's a given that as soon as Ritmo shows up the

thread is destroyed. There will be no good

discussions afterwards.
3/2/13, 3:25 PM

FullMoon said...

Inga woke up full of leftover cheer from having the family over last night.
Still bitching about what Trump said but cannot answer the question posed numerous times here:
What major thing has Trump done to cause anybody's life to change in a bad way?

looks like most people get a tax break and simplification. Jobs being created. School choice a possibility. Healthy young people not forced to buy insurance they don't want.

Where is the actual bad?

buwaya said...

"Theirs had some substantive security concerns and benefits to it."

Theirs (the Israeli wall) also had economic and sovereignty (the nature of the polity) concerns to it. All three matter.

The US case has security, sovereignty and valid economic concerns to it also.
None of these can be dismissed. The US will spend far, far less on its wall, per capita or per unit GDP, as its risk from an open border is far less than Israels on all three counts, but all three are also valid for the US.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The point of the US wall is its poor peoples money. The point is the supply of labor. Poor people want less competition.
This is a US class war, where the poor(er) are FOR the wall.


They will get a fraction with the wall of the benefit they could have with better protections and legislation instead. The problem is, that pits Trump against the millionaires that he prefers to the poor so he can't do that.

So we do what we always do. Deficit-spend our way to cutting their revenue stream and bankrupting the U.S. government even further. And all for a strategy that has never led to greater revenues and at best very temporary growth.

But it keeps Paul Ryan's donors happy so he doesn't care. This is the game. It's one that loses for America. Rome bankrupted itself on bread and circuses and preferring the noble upper class to the rest of the country, too.

buwaya said...

"with better protections and legislation instead"

What better protections are those?

Economics is brutal. You cannot get something for nothing.
Legislate high pay, and you will reduce employment, or like in Southern Europe, much employment will go under the table. You have no idea.

The millionaires are indeed mostly pro-Trump. The billionaires though are mostly anti-Trump. I suggest checking Forbes on this matter. And then ask yourself why that is so.

You COULD argue in an interesting way, but it requires thinking complex thoughts. There are thousands of angles to any question of public policy. There are no angels anywhere in this, and don't assume you know who the devils are.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Theirs (the Israeli wall) also had economic and sovereignty (the nature of the polity) concerns to it. All three matter.

Right. A country of five million Jews surrounded by hundreds of millions of hegemonic, longstanding conquest-driven Muslim Arabs is really exactly the same as a country of 300 million Americans of diverse backgrounds experiencing the influx of a few million mostly peaceful Mexicans seeking better job opportunities. You must be mad. Any parallels to these two different "threats" to sovereignty suffer from perceptions so distorted as to be removed from any reality.

FullMoon said...

Sense:
The point of the US wall is its poor peoples money. The point is the supply of labor. Poor people want less competition.
This is a US class war, where the poor(er) are FOR the wall.

Nonsense:
But it keeps Paul Ryan's donors happy so he doesn't care. This is the game. It's one that loses for America. Rome bankrupted itself on bread and circuses and preferring the noble upper class to the rest of the country, too.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Economics is brutal. You cannot get something for nothing.

Au contraire. The wealthy get tax breaks far in excess in terms of the good they'll do with them for the country compared to the damage those revenue decreasers will do for the national debt.

Republicans know this. They don't care. They fuck up the economy, complain when the next Democrat has to spend and stimulate his way out of it, and then run it up again with tax breaks the next time they get in. It's exactly the cycle they perpetuate. And they know they're doing it. It's all for politics and without any interest in the national interest. They know this what they do. It's just a question of why their followers are too brick-headed to see the problem.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

This is a US class war, where the poor(er) are FOR the wall.

Actually they're for what Bernie Sanders was/is for but because he wasn't an option they went with the wall (and neon lights and hotel) guy instead, Full Moron.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Full Moron can't tell the difference between what Trump's voters want and what Paul Ryan's donors want.

buwaya said...

"the influx of a few million mostly peaceful Mexicans"

The US is very lucky in the quality of its immigrants, legal and illegal.
They are far better, on the whole, than the sorts that Europe has been getting, on all measures from cultural compatibility to social order to economic value.

It does not mean that they are worth the trouble.

This is a matter of degree. For the bulk of the US population the cost:benefit ratio of the scale of immigration at this point is hard to show a positive. Its not a Israeli-scale immediate existential crisis, but few American problems are on that scale.

These are valid questions that could be productively argued. but this is not -
"You must be mad."

chickelit said...

Buwaya wrote: "The Israeli "wall" is more than an order of magnitude more "unaffordable" than the equivalent for the US would be (or is)."

You need to discount California from your calculations where a plurality of Brown voters actually want open borders.

Drago said...

TTR: "A country of five million Jews surrounded by hundreds of millions of hegemonic, longstanding conquest-driven Muslim Arabs ..."

I have been reliably and repeatedly lectured to by leftists that uttering those facts makes you a fascist racist. I have also been told that as a Trump voter I am an uneducated nazi deplorable so I need to listen to and believe these leftists.

You see the quandry here, dont you?

Also, apparently the Israels are unaware that Donald Trump is literally Hitler as they are naming a train station after him.

Life comes at you fast....

FullMoon said...

They will get a fraction with the wall of the benefit they could have with better protections and legislation instead. The problem is, that pits Trump against the millionaires that he prefers to the poor so he can't do that.

Trump will be working hard to simplify and clean up the immigration mess handed to him

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

It does not mean that they are worth the trouble.

Politically? When the alternative is just doing less for the already-wealth-and-powerful instead?

Do more for the poor, less for the powerful. Things will work out better. The immigration thing matters a little, but it's mostly the pacifier you give the working poor to suck on while you focus on doing things for the wealthy-and-powerful instead of what will benefit the working poor most directly. Our country's too big for scapegoating foreign labor to have as big a pay-off as it does in Western Europe, and those countries already do much more to directly benefit labor already, anyway.

Drago said...

TTR"..complain when the next Democrat has to spend and stimulate his way out of it,.."

Democrats dont want to increase spending, its just those darn republicans who make them!

That is certainly an interesting take on things.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Trump will be working hard to simplify and clean up the immigration mess handed to him.

The amount of faith you put in this liar and his Christmas gift bag of xenophobic coals shows just how naive and inexperienced you are at negotiating and dealing with people way more powerful or wealthy than you are.

And why should you be? Trump talks all the time about being a chump and losing out on a good deal. He's talking about you, his supporter. He's talking about how he will take and has taken advantage of you.

Keep putting your faith in him. You've never dealt with and never prevailed over anyone like him. Anyone close to someone who has what he has over you.

No one ever went bankrupt over-estimating the stupidity of the American public.

buwaya said...

"The wealthy get tax breaks far in excess in terms of the good they'll do with them for the country compared to the damage those revenue decreasers will do for the national debt. "

Tax collections as a % GDP is flat.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S

It wiggles a bit around an immovable baseline. High points on that indicate, for the most part, cases where wealthy people are induced to report taxable income. You will find very similar behavior in most countries. Low points are when rich people are not reporting lots of income. You can go into the stats across this data series as to tax revenues from each quintile and $ of the elite.

Raise taxes and rich people will not recognize income to be taxed. Or will find some way out of it. Economics is brutal.

The national debt is, as usual, the result of overspending. There is a natural budget limit based on behavior - the collections as a % of GDP pretty much define it.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Democrats dont want to increase spending, its just those darn republicans who make them!

That is certainly an interesting take on things.


If I had to swear allegiance to a party/ideology whose most notorious economic legacies resulted in managing their way into 1929 and 2008 I guess I'd have to argue as peripherally and in as much avoidance of the point as you do, Drago. Those must be some real awesome doozies in the way of economic mismanagement to have to pretend never happened. Twice. On the same party's watch. With the same "No responsibility for me!" philosophy.

buwaya said...

"and those countries already do much more to directly benefit labor already, anyway."

Do they really?
What is the median disposable income PPP basis of European workers vs the median for US workers?

A bit of homework there.

Economics is brutal.

Gahrie said...

Does Mexico's government "send" its people to us? Is that a factual assertion?

Well they publish and distribute comic books that teach them how to come here illegally and certainly make absolutely no effort to stop them from coming here illegally. At this point they can't to be honest...their economy depends on them shipping their poor to the U.S. and on the billions in remittances from the illegals in the U.S..

FullMoon said...

Trump promised to simplify and lower taxes for average americans.
He did that.
Trump promised to eliminate the Obamacare penalty.
He did that.

He has not promised to speed up immigration process. But he said he loves Mexican people so I expect him to do his best to help productive immigrants.

As to this vomit:"You've never dealt with and never prevailed over anyone like him. Anyone close to someone who has what he has over you."
Do you mean to imply you have prevailed in similar situations? It is to laugh ! Ha Ha.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Really, Honey Bu Buwawa? I guess Fred in St. Louis is the economic messiah everyone's been waiting for.

Talk about a worthless comparison. Go compare the tax rates and top marginal tax rates by country with the amount of debt that country's in. I think that's what matters. Or it does, to Republicans at least, when Democrats are in power. When Democrats are out of power then Republicans get to throw the revenue away again and give it back to their donors.

Debt is political issue to Republicans. Not a real issue. The entire economy is only something they care about when it affects them politically, in fact.

They're just not fit to do this government stuff, which they freely admit. They need to get out of it.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Do they really?
What is the median disposable income PPP basis of European workers vs the median for US workers?


Including when pregnant, raising a family, paying for healthcare, or their education?

You're right. They should be foregoing every major life need so that their employer can give them a tiny pittance more to spend at Walmart instead. Good thinking.

FullMoon said...

Really, Honey Bu Buwawa?

Here we go, slipping into the madness. Happens every time.
Every.Single.Time.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Do you mean to imply you have prevailed in similar situations? It is to laugh ! Ha Ha.

You think that Trump's better than you since his dad gave him a few million to build the business at a rate slower than the growth of the economy by stiffing contractors and slapping his name, like a form of corporate feces, over everything.

So Trump's just as bad as you, then. But then, you already place yourself beneath most decent people with your loser thinking.

Go ahead. Pay tribute to your King. Lower His Majesty's taxes! Just don't pretend he's doing you any favors. You obviously already think he's better than you anyway, so the conversation is not necessary.

These are conversations for people who don't place their morality and dignity beneath Sir Donald The Douchebag Trump's.

FullMoon said...

They should be foregoing every major life need so that their employer can give them a tiny pittance more to spend at Walmart instead. Good thinking.

Against tax cuts and raising wages. Good to know.
Obligatory evil Walmart reference for added effect.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Really, Honey Bu Buwawa?

Here we go, slipping into the madness.


Right. A play on words is "madness."

Someone seems to be sorely lacking in the life skills department.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Against tax cuts and raising wages.

For the already-powerful and wealthy? Definitely. They already have enough. Apparently they don't have enough for you to admire them, but then, you already place yourself several rungs of dignity beneath them anyway so you're not being objective.

Obligatory evil Walmart reference for added effect.

How much of the economy do they employ and at what proportion subsidized by the government that has to provide them with food stamps to make up for their low wages?

See, things like this matter to normal people. But since you have no dignity or sense of self-worth or the brains to see what's happening out in the world then you have no place in the discussion of these things affecting your country.

FullMoon said...

More Nonsense
Go ahead. Pay tribute to your King. Lower His Majesty's taxes! Just don't pretend he's doing you any favors. You obviously already think he's better than you anyway, so the conversation is not necessary.

Actually although relatively humble, I do think I am better than you.
Unlike you, I generally follow Drs. recommendations and take enough meds to control my insanity. You would be happier were you to do the same.


Inga...Allie Oop said...

“Actually although relatively humble, I do think I am better than you. Unlike you, I generally follow Drs. recommendations and take enough meds to control my insanity. You would be happier were you to do the same.”

Nope, you’re not getting nearly enough. Have your doc up the dosage. Otherwise, we all know that soon you’ll be barking again.

FullMoon said...

Standard talking point.
How much of the economy do they employ and at what proportion subsidized by the government that has to provide them with food stamps to make up for their low wages?.

You left out the part about increased traffic and destroying mom and pop businesses.
Now, about your idol Bezos.....

buwaya said...

Median income is median income, no matter how or when it comes.
All mandated benefits are paid for, one way or another, by someone.
Almost always by the workers, as a whole.
More vacation of any sort, less pay, less employment. Someone pays.

Ask me, next, about "progressivity" in taxation.
What proportion of tax collections come from what income quintiles there and here.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Actually although relatively humble, I do think I am better than you.

You are a narcissist who lives entirely inside your own poorly informed mind and who has no inherent self-worth - only what can be bought. And in your case, the price is quite cheap. Much less than 30 shekels of silver.

But you do think that Trump is better than you so, again, there's no point in hearing you whine and opine on him or his policies. Clearly you are ok with whatever he does simply because he fills the huge void that exists in your empty and cheap soul.

FullMoon said...

Nope, you’re not getting nearly enough. Have your doc up the dosage. Otherwise, we all know that soon you’ll be barking again.

Ah! Attempting to curry favor with the Revolutionary. A misstep, however as it is toothlesss who is once again unable to resist the bell.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

You left out the part about increased traffic and destroying mom and pop businesses.
Now, about your idol Bezos.....


So... drive Amazon out of business, but go easy on Walmart... but somehow defend small business all at the same time.

Behold the ignorant incoherence of the right-wing bot-mind at work. Or at play. Or whatever they call it.

FullMoon said...

Not Crazy person self identifies:
You are a narcissist who lives entirely inside your own poorly informed mind and who has no inherent self-worth - only what can be bought. And in your case, the price is quite cheap. Much less than 30 shekels of silver.

But you do think that Trump is better than you so, again, there's no point in hearing you whine and opine on him or his policies. Clearly you are ok with whatever he does simply because he fills the huge void that exists in your empty and cheap soul.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

BTW, I'm pretty sure it's larger retailers that Amazon poses the biggest threat to. But never mind. Like Bluto Blutarsky, Full Moaning Fool Moron's on a roll. It wasn't over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, either. Now he's standing UP for small business - but standing WITH large retailers! Lo and behold if there were a pill to make someone a moron I think he must have swallowed it.

Either that or a few milligrams of organic mercury. Full-on cerebral necrosis can't be far off.

Which begs the question, WTF is his avatar, anyway? A fucking werewolf frozen in stone? It's the stupidest thing anyone's every posted under.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Pelosi ruined San Fransisco years ago. Drove the budget into the hole. That's what leftwingers do. Now she lies about taxation, and everything else.

F her and anyone who buys her botox-brained tyrannical progressive pap.

FullMoon said...

So... drive Amazon out of business, but go easy on Walmart... but somehow defend small business all at the same time.

Behold the ignorant incoherence of the right-wing bot-mind at work. Or at play. Or whatever they call it.


I get it. Billionaire robotized Bezos empire good, Walmart employing hundreds of thousands bad.
Typical

Drago said...

I see that Inga keeps "forgetting" to discuss obama throwing the weight of law enforcement and intelligence service against reporters who are simply doing their job.

Given her very very very recent conversion to worrying about executive branch encroahment on the first amendment Im sure she must have an opinion on obamas attack on the press.

Ill bet she'll get right on that after organizing her next p**** hat march against Menendez......

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

12/27/17, 7:52 PM

So you liked my insult of you so much, that you re-posted it, failed to come up with one of your own, and basically tried to steal it from me. There are easier ways to flatter and bestow honor on the enemy that just beat the shit out of you, retard.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Walmart employing hundreds of thousands bad.

So now you're PRO-low wage? Or just PRO-wages low enough to require subsidization by the government with food stamps?

Make up your (lack of a) mind, right-wing retard!

FullMoon said...



BTW, I'm pretty sure it's larger retailers that Amazon poses the biggest threat to

Right. The evil big retailers. Not the corner gift shop, bookstore or auto parts store.

When your dream comes true and Bezos has destroyed the evil big retailers, life will be good for the little people you champion.

buwaya said...

I do not often get Ritmos jokes.
He writes so parochially.
And he never does his homework.

Anyway, the information on all these questions, for anyone serious, is available online at the Federal Reserve(the St Louis Fed is the Federal Reserve branch that does most of the hosting of such data), the BLS, the CBO (who are good on historical data and spending projections, terrible on revenue projections), the various EU sites.

All sorts of econometric, social, fiscal data. A treasure. But ignored, pearls before swine.

All this is out there to make a real case if there is a case to be made.

But in public discourse this treasure of knowledge is rarely used.

walter said...

After 8 yrs of the great uniter and a lapdog media in the tank for any candidate with D in front of it.
Hmm.
Hard to imagine why folks would seek solace elsewhere..
But hey..yacking about such things as internet divisiveness is as good a way as any to paper over his failures.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

And he never does his homework.

And you never get the point of anything, Honey Bu Buwaya.

Sometimes I think you have conversations with yourself all day.

FullMoon said...

....the enemy that just beat the shit out of you, retard.

12/27/17, 7:57 PM

Good one. A verbal Mike Tyson uppercut.
The angrier you get, the more stupid your insults. I however, remain above the fray and continue on in a calm and rational way.

As a reminder, the thought that upset you was that President Trump will speed up and simplify the immigration process.

walter said...

But give him credit. He used flowery language like folks clinging to guns and religion.
Hil' just blurts out "deplorables".

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

There's plenty of gift shops and bookstores where I live. But then, I give gifts. I read. Unlike some people.

I am not an elitist like Mr. Walmart Good Because Chinese Wage Slave Model but Online Retail Bad because technology, decent wage, ownership of WaPo or whatever else he's gotten another one of his little partisan stiffies up about.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

As a reminder, the thought that upset you was that President Trump will speed up and simplify the immigration process.

Your faith in a liar is what I take issue with. And why shouldn't I? There's so much there!

FullMoon said...

But then, I give gifts.

Everytime you take the bait, it is a gift to me.
Is interesting to see champion of the little people defending Amazon who puts them out of work.

Michael said...

Chamath Palihapitiya's youtube Q & A at Stanford is worth watching in its entirety. Exceptionally articulate about the subject Obama fumbles with. A passionate social justice advocate he suggests that the students "get the money."

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“I however, remain above the fray and continue on in a calm and rational way.”

Until you start barking...

FullMoon said...

Your faith in a liar is what I take issue with.
Simplified and lowered taxes for average person/
Eliminated Obamacare penalty affecting working poor.

Drago said...

TTR: "Your faith in a liar is what I take issue with."

Calm down. We will get to Bernie Sanders in a bit, assuming the Koch brothers will let us...

Recall that Bernie told us that the Koch brothers were outspending both the Republican AND Democrat parties in the 2016 election!

walter said...

Hey Inga,
With the tax legislation, will there be another bark at the moon night for you folks?
Add in some puppies, some play-doh...
Awesome-sauce!
Maybe Bernie's less than hostile response has takesn teh gas out of a future fart-in.

Drago said...

Inga will be getting on that obama spying on journalist thing any minute now...

....any minute now.....

....any minute now....

LOL

FullMoon said...

Ritmo)Echoism, in which people never or rarely feel special, focus on others too much, at the expense of their own needs, and might even feel depressed or anxious.

FullMoon)Healthy Narcissism, in which people are empathic, ambitious, confident, and capable of giving and receiving help.

Toothless)Extreme Narcissism, in which people are manipulative, argumentative, approval- seeking, and suffer from fluctuating self-esteem.

Michael said...

My friend in England lives, or lived until recently for reasons noted below, in Spain for 6 months and a day to avoid the Inland Revenue. My American friend lives in Scotland a day less than six months to avoid the Inland Revenue. My Norwegian friend lives in Scotland six months and a day to avoid the Norway revenuers. My English friend is now in a pickle: the Spanish have now a wealth tax that chips away at his worldwide wealth. He will have to settle in England.

The Germans are in a snit because of the new US tax law which will drain jobs from Germany.

Good times.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

..it is a gift to me.

Like I said, highly impoverished and cheaply bought.

30 shekels for the douche with the 'tude!

FullMoon said...

Horowitz first asks people what they think of Trump’s tax plan and they all have something negative to say about the bill.

“I’m going to be honest with you, I feel like this is just another excuse for rich people to get a break on having to pay taxes like the rest of us hardworking people have to pay,” said one man.

After getting a feel for the public’s views on Trump’s bill, Horowitz introduces “Bernie’s competing plan,” which is actually the GOP plan.

When given the facts about the “Bernie” tax plan, such as a majority of families of four not having to pay any taxes at all, doubling the child tax credit from $1,000 to $2,000, lowering corporate taxes and keeping the Obama-era tax credits for clean energy, every single interviewee responded positively.

After Horowitz dropped the bombshell on the New Yorker’s and told them the “Bernie tax plan” was really Trump’s, they all agreed to give the GOP plan another look.

Referring to media silence on the positives of the bill, one man asked, “Why aren’t they showcasing those aspects of it then?”

Considering the remarkable change in public opinion once people are shown the facts, the answer is they should be.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Eliminated Obamacare penalty affecting working poor.

Right. It "affected" the working poor.

How is their care going to be paid for now? Oh, that's right. Not your problem. Send them to the E.R.! Put them in an ambulance and let them eat cake!

Your 8:28 can choke a horse. You really do just say anything you want as if it were equivalent to factual reality, don't you?

You just keep doing you, hoss. Or whatever it is those voices are telling you to do.

FullMoon said...

How is their care going to be paid for now?
It will be paid for with the savings from air bags, helmets worn by motorcyclists. carseats upgraded every year for kids up to seven years old leadfree paint and water pipes asbestos free insulation etc.

We have been saving billions of dollars every year. More than enough to pay for the occasional emergency room visit.

Or, maybe the working uninsured will pay out of pocket with the money penalty money saved and lower taxes paid.

walter said...

..or direct negotiation.

walter said...

...or slash the income of parasitic DC area guv trough dwellers.

walter said...

Drago said...Inga will be getting on that obama spying on journalist thing any minute now...
--
Just the actions of a responsible executive branch, don't cha know.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Fox Anchor STUNNED When She Suddenly Realizes The GOP Lies For Greed

Bad Lieutenant said...

Now I Know! said...
Bad Lieutenant,

Not being a crazed right winger does not make one a liberal—except in the conservative blogosphere. You thinking that proves that Ann’s blog is just another outpost in the right wing la la land.

12/27/17, 9:52 AM


Your interpretation of my words is mendacious at best.

By the way, you cannot post in this forum under your previous blog name, if I recall correctly. You are abusing your privileges here. Althouse is far kinder to you than you deserve and this is an explicit form of subsidy to the left. Inferior leftist posters are tolerated, encouraged, coddled here, precisely because she wishes to preserve or support a balance. And you are so dishonorable about it.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Trump voter: He lies so much

FullMoon said...


Toothless Pedro
What a dumb douche you are. Seriously, what purpose do you have in life? Everything you say is either stupid, dishonest, or worthless.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Blogger FullMoon said...

How is their care going to be paid for now?
It will be paid for with the savings from air bags, helmets worn by motorcyclists. carseats upgraded every year for kids up to seven years old leadfree paint and water pipes asbestos free insulation etc.

If only we could do away with those stupid Christian ethics against raising people to be harvested for their organs. We could give them lobotomies as infants! It's not like they would be real human beings!

walter said...

OMG,
If only Dems!
If only...Hil'.

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