Mr. Saipov... God is great... yes, I'm reading the New York Times.
Five of the people killed were Argentine tourists who traveled to New York for a 30-year high school reunion celebration, said a senior official in Santa Fe Province, where they were from. The Argentine authorities said they were Hernán Mendoza, Diego Angelini, Alejandro Pagnucco, Ariel Erlij and Hernán Ferruchi. Martín Ludovico Marro, a sixth member of the group, was wounded. Belgian officials said one of those killed and three of the injured were from Belgium.Top-rated comment over there: "Eight deaths and a person is a terrorist but the killer of 59 people is labeled a disturbed mind. Please explain."
Well, one explanation is that this man used words. He shouted 2 distinctive words and he left a note. He wanted to be identified as a terrorist. That said, why give him what he wants?
As for the Las Vegas shooter, people think of him as crazy because he left no words. And he's dead, so there's a mind we'll never get to know. Blank chaos. We call it crazy to make some sense of it, because we're not crazy and we like some sense.
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174 comments:
"Eight deaths and a person is a terrorist but the killer of 59 people is labeled a disturbed mind. Please explain."
Is this supposed to make the least bit of sense? If you kill enough people, you get to be a terrorist?
Argentinian Lives Matter
Allahu akbar is more accurately translated "Allah is greater", as in "greater than Jesus", "greater than your government", and "greater than your civilization."
Islam really seems to attract a LOT of deranged people, huh? I wonder if it is somehow inherently attractive to the deranged?
Or is that not what they are asking?
He wanted to be identified as a terrorist. That said, why give him what he wants?
Because it is the truth. We are adults in a self-governing country and we don't need the media to hide unpleasant facts from us. Not do we need a media who pushes their own agenda down our throats.
We need a fair and unbiased media to report what happened. We'll draw our own conclusions, thank you.
The LV shooter still hasn't been explained. That's the weird thing.
Gerry is correct. The media like to incorrectly translate that to make it seem more Christian-like.
How about we execute the murdering PoS and the bury him facedown wrapped in a pig carcass? And show pictures of it as a deterrent?
I don't think he'd want that.
Uzbekistan for Uzbeks! Why do we need a "Diversity Visa Program," Chuck Schumer?
One thousand open terrorist investigations, and in every State, why do we need more?
How about for every Jihad attack on the USA we delay all Muslim immigration applications that are in process (visas, green cards and citizenship applications) by one year. Maybe that would put some pressure on the community to root out the Jihadis?
If they were really saying "God is great" they would shout "Allahu takbir" instead of "Allahu akbar", which is the comparative superlative form. Link
How about shipping Saipov's wife and 3 kids back to Uzbekistan?
It's a matter of definition. Did the Las Vegas shooter inflict terror on the crowd (and those who later learned about the shooting)? Absolutely. Did the driver who mowed down bicyclists cause terror in NYC? Again, absolutely. However, by 'terrorist' we mean someone who uses terror to achieve political ends. The driver in NYC was using terror to achieve political ends while we don't believe that the Las Vegas shooter was. So, the NYC driver is a terrorist and the Las Vegas shooter was not.
Perhaps the Las Vegas shooter was trying to achieve some political aim. Maybe he was trying to get the country to adopt stricter gun control laws. If so, he, too, would have been a terrorist.
"He wanted to be identified as a terrorist. That said, why give him what he wants?"
I doubt he thought that way. He probably wanted to be identified as a jihadi and a martyr by others who may revere such ideas.
Maybe I'm missing something about the Las Vegas shooter (as I was out of the country for 17 days) but I think there are big questions about the motive of this guy. And where is his hard drive? I just don't have a great deal of confidence in the FBI any more to report accurately about terrorist activity as they have demonstrated they are political.
We need a fair and unbiased media to report what happened
Used to be we learned the five W's in journalism school: What, who, when, where, how; and how was only when needed. We didn't ask why stuff happened and we weren't there to explain it. Just the facts, Ma'am. Just like Dragnet. Local paper was even called the Daily Facts in Redlands.
I still think a news org that started up and followed these principles could make it in today's market, if they could truly stick to the facts it would attract a lot of eyeballs. People are hungry for information yet discouraged by the #fakenews & opinion that has supplanted the role of news in our society. Just for the record, in the old days an anonymous source could only be quoted if the facts were confirmed on the record by a second source. Boy would that change a lot of reporting we get from national media!
It is our duty as global human travelers to make sure that occasional Us citizens, and other global human travelers ocassionally die so that we may live in peace.
They are both crazy by any reasonable definition. Evolution did not select for humans who randomly kill other humans in the hope of being killed in turn by the police. God probably wasn't keen on these kinds of people either.
Still, we are stuck with them. We should neither panic nor ignore the problem. Unfortunately there is not much consensus on what to do in either case.
Please explain.
OK, terrorism is violence committed with a political motive.
ter·ror·ism
[ˈterəˌrizəm]
NOUN
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
That's why the guys in the IRA were considered terrorists, but Jeffery Dahmer was not.
But of course, the person who left that comment knows that.
Chris N, you are in agreement with the Muslim mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, who said: "[T]error attacks are part and parcel of living in a big city.” Also in agreement: De Blasio and Cuomo.
"Because it is the truth. We are adults in a self-governing country and we don't need the media to hide unpleasant facts from us. Not do we need a media who pushes their own agenda down our throats."
I don't accept that it's the truth with just this. It allows ISIS to get credit for every individual who gets murderously suicidal and throws in some words that he knows scare people and will get him talked and talked about in the news. I'm grudging about giving them that so easily and I think it may help the cause of ISIS, which might be failing now. Why bolster them with credit for things they did not plan and execute?
ARM, they are both sane and culpably responsible. "Crazy" means not responsible for their acts. These people are responsible and made a conscious choice. Perhaps you don't agree with their reasoning, but they are not "crazy."
God is great. God is good. And we thank him for our food. By his hand, we are fed. Give us, Lord, our daily bread.
That's the "God is great" I grew up with.
I saw Gov. Cuomo on tv this morning. He said the terrorist attack failed because the Halloween parade in Greenwich a Village went off without a hitch. The Argentinian tourists probably had a different opinion......I live in NYC. I'm not consumed by fear, but I just don't see the point in importing people from countries where they routinely celebrate holidays by burning the American flag. It's true that such people were born without America's original sin and can reliably be expected to vote Democrat, but, in other ways, they're problematic.
Ann, you may have grown up with that, but you are now in Allahu Akbar land.
The churches are empty and the mosques are full...
Good thing for that dimwit in judge in Hawaii that Uzbekistan wasn't one of the counties listed in EO13780, although perhaps it should be.
Democrat judges are all political, Republicans not so much...
"Eight deaths and a person is a terrorist but the killer of 59 people is labeled a disturbed mind. Please explain."
Sayfullo Saipov "only" killed eight people because he is apparently not all that clever. Manhattan abounds in subways, high-rise buildings and dense crowds of pedestrians; it is inherently vulnerable.
If Saipov had put as much planning as Paddock did he might have achieved a much higher body count.
BUT it's not the body count that justifies the "terrorist" label, it's the motivation: the reason for the act. Some people kill accidentally, as when a motor vehicle spins out of control into opposing traffic, and no one would reasonably call such an accident an act of terror.
Paddock's motivation remains unknown (and perhaps unknowable). Saipov's does not. Saipov's motivation appears to be all too obvious.
That's the "God is great" I grew up with.
And exactly why the media mistranslates the Arabic on purpose. It hearkens back to this phrase instead of the "my god is better than your god and the civilization you built" that the media wish to avoid telling us about. This might actually be an ideological impediment, caused by the DNC-media's imperative to normalize all bad behavior that attacks America. I think the average Republican voter (not GOPe like the LLR) is more likely to know the correct translation than the average Democratic voter (who are the same as establishment pols).
It allows ISIS to get credit for every individual who gets murderously suicidal and throws in some words that he knows scare people and will get him talked and talked about in the news.
But that's ISIS' aim. The people that lead ISIS are aware that normal, happy, well-adjusted (oops, almost forgot the hyphen) people aren't going to go on a killing binge that results in their own death, no matter how religious they may be. People that commit this kind of act are most likely to be not terribly bright disaffected losers who see Martyrdom for Allah as a way to redeem their life. The problem is that there is no shortage of not terribly bright disaffected losers in any group. But ISIS has found a way to weaponize them. Saying, "that's not terrorism, its just a murderously suicidal loser" is not going to discourage other not terribly bright disaffected losers. They don't care.
"Ann, you may have grown up with that, but you are now in Allahu Akbar land."
Make America Akbar Again.
If, by 'terrorist' we mean someone who uses terror to achieve political ends.
then the shout is gun-control uber-alles - democrat talking point after the shooting.
or adopted as terrorist after the fact if not in intention?
Why do we need a "Diversity Visa Program," Chuck Schumer?
So we can have terrorist attacks by a diverse rainbow of cultures.
Sorry. Make America Takbir Again.
Don't blame ISIS. Blame Islam. Their countries are shitholes. Let them stay in those shitholes. It's ridiculous to let them come to the US
It was reported on the news this morning that this perp was 'under surveillance' for years.
"Sayfullo Saipov "only" killed eight people because he is apparently not all that clever."
That was my first thought when I first saw the news report. He's in NYC and he only managed to kill eight people? How many did that drunk driver kill a few months ago?
Here is a link. One dead and twenty-two injured.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/18/nyregion/times-square-crash.html
We don't know what motivated the Las Vegas killer. He never told us.
Its definitely possible that the latest killer is disturbed. Was he depressed/disturbed, or just hyped up on anger? We don't know yet. Either way, ISIS appears to have inspired his actions.
I think the Charlottesville drive was unbalanced based on what I heard about him before they shut down information on him, combined with the fact that they've only charged him with 2nd Degree murder.
The WaPo story reporting on the Diversity Visa Lottery, bashing Trump and supporting Schumer, admits toward the end: "Schumer did play a key role in drawing up the program in 1990."
I look at this situation and see a great big metaphor for the world today.
An Uzbek killing Argentinians in NYC with a truck rented at Home Depot. Stated reason?
To say that his God is greater than all the other forces of the universe. Fall down and worship Allah this instant or share their fate. Can faith be coerced in this manner?
We see proven successful formulas for disseminating the faith used centuries ago used to apply the tools of today's world to spreading their world view.
We look at the headlines and see that has been normalized as daily activity, by this point. Is it any wonder that we are no longer content to look away and continue to circle dance for diversity? Is the reckoning awaited by many lurking just around the corner?
McCullough writes: Don't blame ISIS. Blame Islam. Their countries are shitholes. Let them stay in those shitholes. It's ridiculous to let them come to the US.
I agree we should keep them out but not all Arab nations are 'shitholes'. Three Muslim countries are on the top ten GDP nations in the world [Qatar, Kuwait & Brunei]. In my late teens I briefly dated a Kuwaiti man who was studying here. None of the Saudi and Kuwaiti students were from low income families. What they were 'studying' here was our culture, our lifestyle. They were very nice, well-mannered young men but their ideology, even in the mid 1960's, was clear, as our many pizza parlor conversations revealed.
"How about for every Jihad attack on the USA we delay all Muslim immigration applications that are in process (visas, green cards and citizenship applications) by one year. Maybe that would put some pressure on the community to root out the Jihadis?"
I like that. I'll add it to mine:
1. Deport every relative of the terrorist(s), all ages, including cousins of the fifth degree.
2. Deport every member of the terrorist(s) mosque(s). Raze the mosques, rebuild as Freedom Education Centers (i.e., why supremacist political systems--Islam, Communism, Fascism) are bad and should be abhorred by all civilized people.
Brylun: New, mildly deranged, insubstantive commenter or ham-handed moby?
ISIS sent out a directive in November of 2016 instructing potential mass killers on what kinds of vehicles to rent. This perp must have missed the memo.
Chris N: I'm not new. I was commenting on what appears to be your agreement with Sadiq Khan, Bill de Blasio and Andrew Cuomo, that we have to tolerate terrorism. Your response: a personal attack. Is that the best you can do?
rampage frenzy ecstasy bliss nirvana peace
shortest thesaurus path from rampage to peace.
Why we have another lone wolf to add to collection of other lone wolves.
Throw in the Diversity Visa program and we may end up with a veritable wolf pack. Actually I am thinking we are there.
Serious damage can only be done by organized groups owing to finances, equipment, planning. They leave a large footprint and can be detected through that and informers.
The serious damage group size is something like X. So long as the serious damage size is bigger than the detection size, that's taken care of.
Minor damage is not preventable. You can't detect the small size. So live with it, or as Trump says, stop letting in Muslims.
Brylun, only through becoming global human travelers, united by solidarity in seeking inclusive hierarchies of Equality, Diversity, and Social Justice, can we redeem ourselves, and mankind.
The collective categorization of individuals through radical notions of bodily inter-juxtapositions and intersectional awareness, must, and necessarily, lead to the radical freedom required to produce this coming society.
I seek not to judge others by race, gender, religion, sex, ethnicity, height, culture, or whether-or-not-they-are-currently-trying-to-kill-me...I simply seek to unite us all in radical freedom and transgressive peace.
I might agree that it is now fashionable for any crazy person to decide they're ISIS before they go out on a killing spree but it's obvious that this guy researched his jihad enough to know how to do it the way ISIS wants. The radicalization happened before he decided to murder a bunch of people.
Ok, Chris, I guess I have no further comment on your position. It speaks for itself...
Brylun, only through becoming global human travelers, united by solidarity in seeking inclusive hierarchies of Equality, Diversity, and Social Justice, can we redeem ourselves, and mankind.
The collective categorization of individuals through radical notions of bodily inter-juxtapositions and intersectional awareness, must, and necessarily, lead to the radical freedom required to produce this coming society.
I seek not to judge others by race, gender, religion, sex, ethnicity, height, culture, or whether-or-not-they-are-currently-trying-to-kill-me...I simply seek to unite us all in radical freedom and transgressive peace.
Good luck with that, Chris! And just keep on smokin' that shit.
Add Adam Schiff to the group including Sadiq Khan, Bill de Blasio and Andrew Cuomo: "[T]error attacks are part and parcel of living in a big city.”
Pardon me, I'm in the community garden now, then I go to the tech-u-collective this afternoon for another outreach. Chuckleheads won't get it.
Meet me outside Eco-pod 43 if you're ready to rumble. High noon.
Wait, Chris isn't being sarcastic? It's so hard to tell any more.
CBS was on at the gym. Their description at the bottom of the video feed was "Majority of victims were foreigners".
Chris, I admit I fell for it! Sorry I missed your sarc. Very good!
Delayna...alas. I've been in Seattle for a long time now.
Althouse is my place to let loose and not be serious. And you, xir or madam, may have just micro-aggressed.
Check your privilege.
Here is another analogy. Some percentage of the people in the IRA probably didn't care all that much about Irish independence. They were just sadistic monsters who liked drilling holes in peoples' kneecaps and joining the IRA was a way to do that and get paid. And the true believers who were in charge knew this. They were aware that some of the troops were in it more for the sadism than for the ideology, but didn't care because they needed people who were willing to drill holes in peoples' kneecaps.
Does that make them any less of a terrorist? The motivations of a particular individual to perform an act is irrelevant to what is accomplished by the performance of the act.
Chances are that some of the people in the Symbionese Liberation Army were really motivated by anger at their parents, doesn't change the fact that they committed acts of terror.
Or the Unibomber. He probably is crazy. But he is considered a terrorist because his kind of crazy caused him to perform acts of violence for a political end.
I read recently that Allahu akbar translates literally not as "God is great" but "God is greater," suggesting (to me at least) the idea that my God is greater than your God.
Think the commie-pinko lefties are denial over this Islam thingy?
MSLSD's Chris Matthews last night (paraphrasing): Why would someone from Uzbekistan want to kill us?"
MSLSD Pete Williams responds: "Good question."
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/11/chris_matthews_is_baffled_why_an_uzbeki_would_want_to_attack_us.html
Islamic Forbes Deputy Editor Halah Touryalai: "This [EPA Sec. Pruitt's Bible quote] is scarier than Allahu Akbar."
Perhaps to her. Judge for yourself.
What does one expect when you give ou child the name that translates into English as "Sword of Allah"?
Shorter ARM: Nothing to see. Move along....and whatever you do, don't mention islamic supremacism. Don't. Mention. That.
I don't know why people get so confused about this. This is the kind of thing that only an intellectual could get muddled about.
There is a difference between war and crime.
We're at war with Islamism, or at least Islamism is at war with us, whether we recognize it or not. A person who kills in the name of Islamism is an agent in that war. His acts are acts of war.
There is a difference between war and peace. While at war, the primary goal of the warring party is to end the war and get back to a state of peace. This is because no matter how much you like war, it is fundamentally unsustainable over time, without cloning and/or Star Trek type replicators.
A person who kills because he feels like it is a criminal. This is the case no matter how many people he kills, even if it is 100x more than the soldier. There has always been crime, and there always will be. You do your best to defeat it, but human nature means there will always be crime and murder. It is just a matter of how much and who it affects.
So a society will always try harder to win war than it will to suppress crime. It will always treat acts of war as more serious than acts of crime. And yes, again, even if the crime kills 100x more than the war.
This really isn't that difficult, people.
From PowerLine: "The U.S. isn’t Noah’s Ark."
All things considered, Islam is not the worst (yet....). The followers of God have dealt with much worse than Islam in the past. Baal, Molech, Set, Tlaloc.... all names for the same Deity as Allah. Cortez was dealing with one of the most evil groups of humans ever in history when he through the power of God ended the Aztec empire. ISIS in their most depraved acts were approaching daily Aztec life.
There is a place for militant Christianity: some people and cultures need to be removed from the earth, violently. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were examples of this. It is through the grace of God that we were able to defeat the Soviets without needing to militarily conquer them--perhaps because of the existential threat to humanities survival that a cornered Soviet Union would have been.
Frankly, though, all of these murderous barbaric civilizations have needed to be suppressed by a stronger, more righteous nation. The Thuggee's in India and the horrors of the widow burnings; the Aztecs and the Mayans; the Babylonians; then Alexander putting the entire Middle East down and imposing greek civilization... Romans versus the Carthaginians; and on and on.
Islam is moderated by the fact that Mohammed's early years, in Mecca, were truly good. It was only when he fled to Medina that all the evil in Islam appeared--the "death to everyone and rape the survivors!" that the Koran preaches.
--Vance
The Las Vegas case remains extraordinarily mysterious.
The whole incident has not been explained, down to the sequence of events, which have not been laid out in any way.
One would think its a natural for a media pile-on, but it seems it has been erased from the news.
Humperdink reports: MSLSD's Chris Matthews last night (paraphrasing): Why would someone from Uzbekistan want to kill us?"
MSLSD Pete Williams responds: "Good question."
As I have asked repeatedly, are the mediaswine really this clueless or are they being disingenuous? Or is the wall of their bubble so impervious to truth that they are ideologically incapable of seeing the mene mene tekel upharsin on the wall?
I just listed to part of a press conference where the predicable warnings about Islamophobia seemed paramount in the concerns of LE officials.
I would never rent a truck to any man wearing a beard like that. Sorry sir, all of our trucks are reserved.
A nice beard, fine, but a ratty beard, no way.
listened not listed, of course..
I would never rent a truck to any man wearing a beard like that. Sorry sir, all of our trucks are reserved.
A nice beard, fine, but a ratty beard, no way.
These units can be--and usually are--reserved online.
"God is great" works for the secular media types.
It impugns not just Islam, but the concept of religion itself.
The translation itself is political speech.
Buwaya observes: The Las Vegas case remains extraordinarily mysterious.
The whole incident has not been explained, down to the sequence of events, which have not been laid out in any way.
One would think its a natural for a media pile-on, but it seems it has been erased from the news.
Absolutely. My younger daughter, conspiracy theorist extraordinaire, has a bunch of reasons for this. Some of them are actually quite believable. Conspiracy or not, we have learned nothing concrete whatever about this case.
Our military tends to use drones and missiles. A multi-million dollar operation.
The enemy uses a human missile. It's asymmetric (cost and sophistication), and it works because we don't design our cities to be 100% safe. We have to be willing to take a body count because we are the land of the free, and the home of the brave.
Terrifying people is not the same as terrorism.
This is the stupidest argument. We all know the root of it, and it's a dumb game to play.
The thing I'm currently finding terrifying about the Las Vegas shooting is how the story about what happened seemingly can't be told, and certainly can't be told straight. What 's going on there?
I'm a native New Yorker, and back before ISIS replaced Al-Quaida as the big Neanderthal bullies on the block, I used to joke--imitating Humphrey Bogart as Rick in CASABLANCA--"There are parts of New York City that I'd advise even Al-Qaida not to invade." Now I don't know. I've been away for too long, and from a distance the city now seems occupied by a bunch of panty-waisted Yuppies so stupid they'd elect Comrade De Blasio mayor. And given that self-defense seems to have been virtually outlawed (a trend that was begun under Obama precursor John V. Lindsay), my impression is that a contingent of Jihadists could just waltz into, say, Brooklyn--once known for its toughness but now known as Hipster Mecca--and clean house with the place.
Top-rated comment over there: "Eight deaths and a person is a terrorist but the killer of 59 people is labeled a disturbed mind. Please explain."
Do people not know that the word "terrorism" has an actual, defined meaning, or are they just pretending not to know?
Meanwhile in Virginia, the Latino Victory Fund is really wishing that they hadn't made an attack ad against the Republican candidate that will get voters to think about "terror" and "trucks" right before they go to vote next week.
William said " itch. The Argentinian tourists probably had a different opinion"
Yeah, I have a problem with that "We showed the terrorists! We went on as if nothing happened!"
I get that it's important not to be consumed by fear. But showing no empathy or sympathy for people who have just died isn't heroic.
"I was a hero. I didn't give into Harvey Weinstein's attempt to derail Hollywood when he raped women. I went on as if nothing happened."
There is a fine line between not cowering and not caring.
As for the Las Vegas shooter, people think of him as crazy because he left no words.
Everyone I know believes the government knows his motivation. Knows if he had help. And what kind. And isn't telling us. Everyone I know, not just the conspiracy theorists. Including me.
"Etienne said...
Our military tends to use drones and missiles. A multi-million dollar operation.
The enemy uses a human missile. It's asymmetric (cost and sophistication), and it works because we don't design our cities to be 100% safe. We have to be willing to take a body count because we are the land of the free, and the home of the brave."
No, it works because we won't own the reality, we can't be the "Home of the Muzzie."
MayBee observes The thing I'm currently finding terrifying about the Las Vegas shooting is how the story about what happened seemingly can't be told, and certainly can't be told straight. What 's going on there?
What I found telling was the demeanor of the FBI guy during the initial press conference when the sheriff was speaking [quite nervously]. Rouse, the FBI guy, was almost drilling holes in the sheriff with his eyes. But, then, maybe that's what FBI regional directors do to local law enforcement. Even so, I've never trusted the FBI to be honest about anything.
Yes, this is off-topic but the information surrounding yesterday's attack in NYC seems clear and direct. That of the Mandalay event never did.
I'm grudging about giving them that so easily and I think it may help the cause of ISIS, which might be failing now. Why bolster them with credit for things they did not plan and execute?
So true. Now go just a tiny bit further in the logic. If ISIS was not the real cause … what is the real cause? Could it that the religion of Islam, rather than one of the many terrorist groups (ISIS, al Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, etc.) inspired by the religion, is itself the cause? Are we wanting to hide in the weeds of “nuance.”
I agree we should keep them out but not all Arab nations are 'shitholes'. Three Muslim countries are on the top ten GDP nations in the world [Qatar, Kuwait & Brunei].
Economically the mentioned nations may be fine, but economies are irrelevant to the pathology of those born and raised in the Muslim environment. Do the citizens of those countries have much freedom? The answer is no. How’s their human rights record? Abysmal is the answer. Rich Muslims will kill you as quickly as poor Muslims. Osama bin Laden was a rich Muslim.
The Muslims in those nations are first confused, then frightened and finally angered anytime they are confronted with freedom. They bring their theocratic-fueled hatred of freedom along with them when they cross our borders.
The Vegas shooter is easy: free-ranging insane.
I know some people just like him, and I have contacted to police. They know about them, but until they go off the deep end, they are free to range.
When you see people with 20 gun lockers filled with fully automatic and sniper rifles, you don't have to use your imagination as to what they will be hunting.
You can bet your ass, when these guys start shooting, I will be showing the press my police report, and how they were just waiting for a crime, so they could arrest them.
Fuck that, if they are insane, crime is inevitable. Put them in cages and play waltz music 24/7.
Grackle asserts: Do the citizens of those countries have much freedom? The answer is no. How’s their human rights record? Abysmal is the answer. Rich Muslims will kill you as quickly as poor Muslims. Osama bin Laden was a rich Muslim.
I totally agree, grackle. The fact is that Muslims don't WANT freedom and individual rights! [Unless it is to be used, as here and in Europe, against us kafirs]. Islam means submission. The religion/ideology is the very antithesis of freedom and democracy.
mockturtle said...
McCullough writes: Don't blame ISIS. Blame Islam. Their countries are shitholes. Let them stay in those shitholes. It's ridiculous to let them come to the US.
I agree we should keep them out but not all Arab nations are 'shitholes'. Three Muslim countries are on the top ten GDP nations in the world [Qatar, Kuwait & Brunei]. In my late teens I briefly dated a Kuwaiti man who was studying here. None of the Saudi and Kuwaiti students were from low income families.
Have you visited Qatar, Kuwait, and Brunei? I've been to the United Arab Emirates, per capita income $72,850 in 2016. It's a shithole with bright shiny buildings. From what I hear of people who've been there, Qatar, Kuwait, and Brunei are much the same. There's a veneer of Western culture applied to the elite in those countries. Peel back the veneer, get inside their heads, they're savages with money. The infrastructure, the beautiful buildings, were built by foreign contractors and labor. The clean city streets, the wastewater plants, the water purification systems, all done by paid foreign labor.
Sharialand countries without natural resources to exploit are pretty much non-players in the world marketplace. They have no factories, no skilled labor, no intellectual properties, nothing worth selling.
Contrast to Singapore and Hong Kong. Minimal natural resources in either, yet they manage a respectable standard of living. Their resources are their people.
Gospace: I fully agree with you. See my above comment regarding Muslim values. We are always trying to project our own onto other cultures and religions. As the British found in Mesopotamia/Iraq, it doesn't work.
Etienne said...
When you see people with 20 gun lockers filled with fully automatic and sniper rifles, you don't have to use your imagination as to what they will be hunting.
I know a lot of gun collectors, including a few that cold outfit small South American armies. But I don't know any with fully automatic weapons. How many do you know with fully automatic weapons?
I just listed to part of a press conference where the predicable warnings about Islamophobia seemed paramount in the concerns of LE officials.
Next comes the part were there are widely reported stories of hate crimes committed as part of the "backlash" and then the barely reported stories that the hate crimes were hoaxes staged by the "victims."
And for those who think Muslims come to this country [and to Europe] to flee the 'shitholes', for a better life, think again. Those I have known and worked with were all from upper middle class families, were well educated and lived very well in their countries of origin. They are infiltrating all nations--even China and Iceland, for heaven's sake!--for a reason: To further the cause of Allah and sharia law.
It's amazing that despite the actions by Islamists, despite the media attention they get, and despite the lack of action against such folks...
That you don't see insane Christian or Jewish folks committing similar acts in the name of God (or G-d) in Islamic-dominated countries.
So now people are chirping that trucks should be banned in civilian hands. Heck, I would be in favor of banning bike paths. Wanna cycle? Go to the YMCA's spin room. Joggers too. (sarc alert).
His true motive may never be known.
" The infrastructure, the beautiful buildings, were built by foreign contractors and labor. The clean city streets, the wastewater plants, the water purification systems, all done by paid foreign labor."
Absolutely correct. There have been very expensive efforts towards creating a native working class, but these have largely failed, so far.
Let team blue resign themselves to dying at the hands of terrorists. By all means, show your moral superiority to the rest of us while we make other arrangements. There is no dignity in being slaughtered and I feel sorry for you.
How many do you know with fully automatic weapons?
I use the term to include "bump stocks". All the insane gun nuts have bump stocks.
"Sharialand countries without natural resources to exploit are pretty much non-players in the world marketplace. They have no factories, no skilled labor, no intellectual properties, nothing worth selling."
Depends on what you mean by Sharialand.
Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey have significant export-oriented manufacturing industries, and the workforce in these places is either majority-Muslim or entirely so. They are not like Qatar or Saudi. Indonesia is heavy on the natural-resources exploitation, but their workers are Indonesian. In fact a lot of the foreign contract workers are Indos.
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/jobs/locations/malaysia/sites.html
Gk1 said...There is no dignity in being slaughtered.
Of course not. The 40,000+ rubbed-out every year on the Eisenhower Freeway agree with you.
When you see people with 20 gun lockers filled with fully automatic and sniper rifles, you don't have to use your imagination as to what they will be hunting.
I doubt very much that you have seen people with 20 gun lockers full of automatic weapons. Automatic weapons are very rare, very expensive and very hard to get permits for.
Hilarious. Don't forget to minimize the attacks with deaths from dodgy salads at Chipotle and household accidents while you are at it. Knob.
Re Turkey, Malaysia or Indonesia -
To be fair, their workers aren't Chinese(except for a minority in Indo and Malaysia that are actually Chinese), and don't compare as workers, but they do indeed work for a living.
Blogger AReasonableMan said..."They are both crazy by any reasonable definition."
The "mentally ill" excuse has been the lefty talking point this morning.
"Etienne said...
How many do you know with fully automatic weapons?
I use the term to include "bump stocks". All the insane gun nuts have bump stocks."
Bullshit.
ARM: "They are both crazy by any reasonable definition."
Then there are entire legions of armed "crazy people" taking over entire swaths of the middle east while also conducting simultaneous terrorist operations across the globe in all societies.
Because it's all due to a crazy "lone wolf".
This just in, entire German Army goes "lone wolf-crazy-rogue" by invading Poland.
By our standards, entire cultures could be labeled 'crazy' [look at Madagascar and their 'Dance of/with the dead']. And they might very well label us the same. I simply won't believe that psychosis is endemic in Muslim populations. Terrorists not only know what they are doing but why they are doing it, which is a lot more than many of us can say.
“How about shipping Saipov's wife and 3 kids back to Uzbekistan?”
How are they implicated?
Of course, we only have about 1400 years of data points which we could analyze to understand the underlying the intent and, lets face it. That ain't enough!
If only we had 1500 years of data points! Then we might be able to draw some conclusions!
Until then, alas.
Of course, NOW we find out this guy was "known wolf" with at least two significant contacts with other terrorists prior to being let into this country on a "Diversity Visa", designed for people with NO actual attachments to anyone in this nation but would, in time, reliably vote democrat and help pull down the US.
So, all in all, this guy was a PERFECT fit for what the lefties intended all along.
Inga can't wait for more of these "vetted" cats to be let in. But she is outraged, OUTRAGED, that anyone would vote for Donald Trump.
Even better news for Inga, one of this guys pals is a terrorist suspect on the loose in the US.
Gee, I hope we don't "diversity" ourselves into another mass casualty assault by someone who had no right to be in the US in the first place, other than sharing a desire with our own leftists to hurt the US.
It would be nice if the lefties could muster up 1/100th of the criticism they have for Catholics for use against islamic terrorists.
Hopeing too much again.
https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2017/09/11/amy-barrett-judicial-nominee-religion-242550
Here's the Democrat Party's program:
1) Import lots of random foreigners
2) Make the random foreigners into citizens
3) Preach that Republicans are racist xenophobes
4) Register the new citizens to vote Democrat
"Unknown said...
“How about shipping Saipov's wife and 3 kids back to Uzbekistan?”
How are they implicated?"
One by marriage, three by birth.
Chuckie Schumer says the Diversity Program is an excellent program.
Well, there are certainly 8 fewer potential negative voices against the program today, aren't there?
Mike Sylvester: "2) Make the random foreigners into citizens"
2) Make the random foreigners into a permanent class of embittered, entitled, non-assimilated, completely balkanized, US hating citizens.
FIFY
buwaya said...
"Sharialand countries without natural resources to exploit are pretty much non-players in the world marketplace. They have no factories, no skilled labor, no intellectual properties, nothing worth selling."
Depends on what you mean by Sharialand.
Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey have significant export-oriented manufacturing industries, and the workforce in these places is either majority-Muslim or entirely so.
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk established a government that was virulently anti-Islamist. Pretty much the entire officer corps of the Turkish Army was atheist. A young officer with known Islamist leanings would find his career at a dead end. Whenever the civilians voted in an Islamist government, the army would leave it's barracks, take control over for few years= THEN HAND CONTROL BACK to civilians. While Islamism was suppressed, Turkey slowly modernized. Took the interference of western governments proclaiming the Army should listen to the will of the people to break this cycle. Headscarves for women, the burqa, niqab, all were banned under a a ruthless desire to establish secularism.. Western dress for women and men was widespread. No more, thanks to human rights intervention by the West. Give it a few years, Turkey will produce nothing. Turkey wasn't under sharia rule; it's not fully established- yet.
Iran under Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was ruthlessly secular. Jimmy Carter saw that the ayatollahs were reasonable nice people unlike the ruthless shah, and aided in the overthrow of the shah and the installation of the nice reasonable ayatollahs as the Iranian government. One of the many reasons Jimmy Carter will be going straight to hell on his death. I for one won't be praying for his soul. Sharia is fully established in Iran.
Parts of Indonesia and Malaysia are under de facto sharia. Those areas likely produce nothing. The parts that aren't are their trade and production centers.
I read an article yesterday which explained that it isn't really "Allah is Great" but rather "Allah is GreatER." As in greater than your god, or your laws, or your society. It is intrinsically Islamic supremacist.
And of course, Gerry already noted that at the top of the comments. :-)
Chuckie Schumer says the Diversity Program is an excellent program.
Hell, we can't manage the diversity we already have!
Allah is GreatER. Yeah - I assume that the Arabic KBR is similar to the Hebrew GBR (a "g" is just a voiced "k"), which means mastery or overpowering.
Uzbekistan is not really a Sharialand country.
It seems it is quite secular as Muslim countries go, perhaps more so in this respect than Turkey these days.
The Muslim terrorism threat is not from a certain set of countries, but potentially from all of them.
Curious George said...
"Etienne said...
How many do you know with fully automatic weapons?
I use the term to include "bump stocks". All the insane gun nuts have bump stocks."
Bullshit.
11/1/17, 12:32 PM
Etienne, né "coupe," is just playing the crazy troll. Anytime now he'll be calling for some form of genocide so that the bodies can be burned to create electricity.
Chuckie Schumer says the Diversity Program is an excellent program.
Diversity's successes are on display every time a conservative "attempts" to speak at UC Berkeley.
I see Flakey Flake has stepped in to provide Chuck some covering fire that had we adopted the "Gang of 8"'s sensible immigration reform this guy would not have been allowed in. Something tells me that's just horseshit and part of flakes losing twitter banter with trump.
Question for you lefties regarding the phrase "insane gun nut". Is there such a thing as a "sane" gun nut?
It allows ISIS to get credit for every individual who gets murderously suicidal and throws in some words that he knows scare people
It also allows ISIS to get the blame, as opposed to poverty, Israel, America, and all the other entities that get falsely blamed for such attacks, which in turn properly focuses resources and opinions of right-thinking people.
As per Trump, Saipov initiated the immigration ("chain migration") of another 23 people from Uzbekistan.
Its not unlikely that some of his relatives have similar issues.
"'Eight deaths and a person is a terrorist but the killer of 59 people is labeled a disturbed mind. Please explain.' "Well, one explanation ..."
When in doubt, it's probably best to go with the facts to the extent you know them. That seems like explanation enough. Others, evidently including the NYT commenter who needed an explanation, just want to stick to the narrative, and let the facts be damned.
My Vegas Novel: What Happened in Vegas, Stays in Vegas
The Vegas guy to me is a "Day of the Jackal" guy - a methodical, money-motivated psychopath who fell in with ideological leftys who wanted a massacre of conservatives. They assured him that he would get away. There was a plan for that. They were going to blow up the fuel tanks and he would escape in the confusion. After Paddock had been firing awhile, in came hotel security which has tricks we don't know about and won't find out about and took his gun away and shot him with it, picked up his paraphernalia (hideout notes, etc.) and left. The outside lefty gang ran away from the fuel tanks when the gunshots stopped - it was too soon and they knew the plot had failed. After a hour of discussion, the SWAT team was let in. The FBI got the Paddock paraphernalia in exchange for silence about hotel/casino security and is systematically infiltrating the Resistance. It would just divide America more to find out what happened and it would affect casino security (all that money sloshing around is guarded, you may be sure.) Maybe the story will come out but my money is on the casinos keeping it all quiet. Remember in New Orleans how focused the local police were on making sure that the hurricane was not an opportunity for a heist? This is that.
Is there such a thing as a "sane" gun nut?
Absolutely. For example, my wife collects derringers, but she has no ammunition. She likes the workmanship, and trade value, but not the function.
I see Flakey Flake has stepped in to provide Chuck some covering fire that had we adopted the "Gang of 8"'s sensible immigration reform this guy would not have been allowed in.
No need to be let in under that program.
The Gang of 8 had lots of other programs that would have kept the stream of these islamic supremacists waltzing into our country.
But hey, I'm sure the Gang of 8 agreement would have had "serious" and "significant" vetting protocols....(wink wink)
Anytime now he'll be calling for some form of genocide so that the bodies can be burned to create electricity.™
Uh oh, the Althouse blog security has arrived.
P.S. That phrase is trademarked, so you better send my Agent his fee.
Humperdink questioned: "Is there such a thing as a "sane" gun nut?"
Etienne responded: "Absolutely. For example, my wife collects derringers, but she has no ammunition."
Apparently your opinion is that having a derringers AND ammunition = an insane gun nut. Am I wrong here?
Humperdink said...
Apparently your opinion is that having a derringers AND ammunition = an insane gun nut.
Personally, I am quite comfortable with this definition.
Drago said...
Shorter ARM: Nothing to see. Move along....
No. I said both are a problem. I also pointed out the obvious, that there is no consensus on how to deal with either problem. Maybe a grand bargain is possible, no Arabs for no guns.
No. I said both are a problem. I also pointed out the obvious, that there is no consensus on how to deal with either problem. Maybe a grand bargain is possible, no Arabs for no guns.
Now that we know what you are, it only remains to settle on a price. Okay, no Arabs/Muslims, for no guns for leftists.
Anytime now he'll be calling for some form of genocide so that the bodies can be burned to create electricity.™
Uh oh, the Althouse blog security has arrived.
--If you don't want to be called out for doing shtick, don't do shtick.
P.S. That phrase is trademarked, so you better send my Agent his fee.
--I'll pay your daughter, if she'll take it in trade.
ARM: "Maybe a grand bargain is possible, no Arabs for no guns"
So, all we US Citizens have to do is give up our constitutional rights and your side will consider not allowing in any more ...."Arabs"....
What an interesting formulation, and by "interesting" I of course mean disingenuous.
No thinking American would entrust any of their constitutional rights to leftists anymore than we would trust the lefts islamic supremacist allies.
When you see people with 20 gun lockers filled with fully automatic and sniper rifles, you don't have to use your imagination as to what they will be hunting.
A shrewed investment?
For example. Rumor has it that there is a matched pair-consecutive serial numbers- of 1927 Thompson submschine guns out in the auto collector world. Complete with matching drum magazines and cases. The value of the pair is somewhere north of 1,000,000. The only registered Bren gun in the US in valued at over 250,000 and a pre 1939 scoped Finnish Mosin Negant M39 will net you an easy five figures.
Full auto collectors are in a different class and the firearms themselves are a good investment.
You were saying?
gerry said...
Allahu akbar is more accurately translated "Allah is greater"
Not " You can have this truck back when you pry my cold dead fingers . . . " ?
Its very important to the lefties and their LLR allies that no discussion regarding the latest leftist-enabled islamic supremacist attack on the US be allowed without turning the discussion to removing the constitutional rights of law abiding citizens.
We'll just add the 2nd amendment to the list of amendments that the left clearly have their "sights set on" destroying.
"God is great. God is good. And we thank him for our food. By his hand, we are fed. Give us, Lord, our daily bread.
That's the "God is great" I grew up with."
And how does that sound to all those little carrots and leafs of lettuce? The tiny shocks of wheat?
Horrifying.
I'll tell you what ARM, lets create a grand bargain where guns are banned as props in movies and in exchange we will have a complete moratorium on muslim immigration for the next 30 years.
Machine-Gun collectors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSG2Flnc1Rs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCwP3Dm52Ls&t=387s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG1DoHPAaRA&t=88s
buwaya said...Machine-Gun collectors
You peoples are going off on a tangent again. Follow the circle of the logic.
Someone asked, how do you explain the Vegas shooter. I proposed he was an insane gun nut. He was mentally retarded, that is, insane. He deserved to be locked up, even before he pulled the trigger.
It's a tangent to start talking about law abiding gun collectors.
The people I'm talking about don't collect trophies, they collect guns and shoot them every week. They go through cases of ammunition. They spend all week reloading the brass. Here in Oklahoma, "they wear their holsters outside their pants."
All the Federales say
They could have had him any day
They only let him slip away
Out of kindness, I suppose
Humperdink said...
Apparently your opinion is that having a derringers AND ammunition = an insane gun nut.
ARM responded: "Personally, I am quite comfortable with this definition."
I'm impressed ARM. An honest liberal who wants to dispense with the amendment #2. How about the 1st amendment? Want to gut that one also? The 5th amendment? You buddies at Fusion GPS milked that one. Should we send that one the trash heap along with the 2nd?
As an aside, you probably find it amusing that Venezuela's Madura disarmed his citizens and then re-armed his supporters.
Apparently your opinion is that having a derringers AND ammunition = an insane gun nut. Am I wrong here?
Yes, you are wrong. You have two vectors there, and not one line.
@Etienne. Apparently ARM disagrees with you. Or should I say disARM.
"The people I'm talking about don't collect trophies, they collect guns and shoot them every week. "
The Youtube machinegun guys seem to shoot them every week also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1nKXbrim8s
Hickock 45 has hundreds of videos.
"Full auto collectors are in a different class and the firearms themselves are a good investment.
You were saying?"
I have kicked my self many times for passing up a Browning Pigeon Grade over and under for sale about 30 years ago.
People who don't know anything about guns are so ignorant it makes my head hut.
"Parts of Indonesia and Malaysia are under de facto sharia. Those areas likely produce nothing. The parts that aren't are their trade and production centers."
Sharia and economics are mutually exclusive. As Indonesia gets taken over by the Arabs, who are peddling Sharia, economics will fall.
Kilcullen wrote about this years ago.
Unfortunately there is not much consensus on what to do in either case.
Actually, there is. Six in ten Americans support the immigration bans hated by a small but influential group of Dems and Liberals.
Of that group, even 48% of Dems support it, vs 41% who do not.
Now, there are a lot of people who are UNCERTAIN how to fix it, but they are (a minority) of people who are unsure of a solution, not people opposing a proposed solution, which makes them a null set.
So this is actually you pushing that a small minority opinion actually be given more weight than it actually should be given.
Just to put some back of the napkin numbers on it
Six in ten Americans is just shy of 200 MILLION people saying that Trump is a step in the right direction.
Democrats are about 36% of the population. Forty one percent oppose Trumps policy.
So 330m x 36% x 41% is about 44 million.
So a fifth of the people are against what the majority wants. Unfortunately, a few of them are Hawaiian judges and Loud Mouthed Media types who believe they are saints speaking the truth to power with their every utterance.
So no, I am not buying your equivalence.
Drago said...
I'll tell you what ARM, lets create a grand bargain where guns are banned as props in movies
and no more Arabs as the bad guys?
"and no more Arabs as the bad guys?"
That ship sailed when they made the villains in Tom Clancy's book, "Sum of All Fears" a south African instead of a Palestinian. The movie made no sense and Clancy washed his hands of it.
"...and no more Arabs as the bad guys?"
You're making the claim that Hollywood is stereotyping Arabs as bad guys? Good luck providing examples.
You're making the claim that Hollywood is stereotyping Arabs as bad guys? Good luck providing examples.
Even Munich was equivocal.
"I use the term to include "bump stocks". All the insane gun nuts have bump stocks."
You did the ignorant ARM thing and, like ARM, clowned yourself. Don't pretend to know what you don't know.
Or do. The displays of liberal ignorance have been a significant factor in hardening opposition to gun control among the Fudds.
This excerpt from an LA Times should give us pause:
"Although Saipov seemed purposeful in becoming a driver, there is no indication that he had planned to deploy a truck as a weapon at the time he arrived in the United States. The occupation is common for Uzbek immigrants, who are well represented in the trucking, moving and car services. For the last six months, he was driving an Uber and had logged 1,400 rides, the company confirmed." [My emphasis]
You're making the claim that Hollywood is stereotyping Arabs as bad guys? Good luck providing examples.
You must have known someone tried to rise to this challenge already:
https://stepfeed.com/7-movies-where-arabs-or-muslims-are-everything-but-the-heroes-5734
It's pretty hilarious; the list starts with "American Sniper" and ends with "Lone Survivor", of which it says, The film fails to give enough knowledge about the Taliban commander to allow the audience to identify him as a good or bad guy. As usual, the film blindly presents him as the "bad" guy.
Others on the list: "The Siege", "Rules of Engagement", "The Dictator", "Zero Dark Thirty" - yes, the author of the list is upset that Arabs and Muslims are not the heroes of a movie about the search for Osama bin Laden - and "Delta Force". The author complains about the 1986 Chuck Norris picture about terrorists hijacking a plane thusly: The film was also released long before the September 11 attacks, which kind of gets you wondering. lol.
So there's a list of seven to start you off; three dramatizations of actual events, a satire of Muammar Gaddafi, a 30 year old action movie inspired by several actual events, and two other movies.
bgates
Now how about a list where it is a White Guy/Big Business person who is the bad guy?
Except you don't hear about cell phones blowing off people's heads except in the Kingsmen. Business men just want money, not dead customers.
AReasonableMan said...
No. I said both are a problem. I also pointed out the obvious, that there is no consensus on how to deal with either problem. Maybe a grand bargain is possible, no Arabs for no guns.
Leftists force us to allow muslims to immigrate here.
Muslims do what muslims do everywhere and kill non-muslims after they cut off a few clitorises and murder a few sisters/daughters.
Leftist blithely offers to remove the muslims if we give up our guns.
Hilarious!
There is a group that I am far more concerned about than Muslims. It is you and your leftist friends. You people destabilize every society you infest with disgusting hateful tactics. Eventually you seize power and proceed to kill off large portions of the population after seizing power.
There will never be a time where I willingly give up my means of defending myself. Neither will millions of people who reasonably conclude you cannot trust the left. Ever. You are morally degenerate people.
Etienne said...
How many do you know with fully automatic weapons?
I use the term to include "bump stocks". All the insane gun nuts have bump stocks.
That is just a really stupid thing to say. Is there some sort of humor angle?
That is just a really stupid thing to say.
oops, sounds like we have a bump stock owner here :-) Take your meds!
The timeline and the story that the LVPD have told us has changed so often, do we know what happened when up there? We don't know if he was shouting or saying anything when he was shooting...he may have been. And maybe there was a note on his computer, his hard drive was destroyed.
That is just a really stupid thing to say. Is there some sort of humor angle?
Achilles, ... Well, let's just say he's trolling and let it go at that.
I think he wants attention lately.
"The people I'm talking about don't collect trophies, they collect guns and shoot them every week. They go through cases of ammunition. They spend all week reloading the brass. "
And in your limited ability to reason these and the Las Vegas shooter are all of the same cloth?
"circle of logic"
Man with a gun shoots a bunch of people.
Let's ban all guns.
Man with a truck runs down and kills a bunch of people.
According to your "circle of logic" we must ban all trucks.
Etienne apparently wets himself at the sight of a firearm. He should probably self-select out of the pool of responsible gun owners.
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