November 26, 2017

"Mr. Hovater’s face is narrow and punctuated with sharply peaked eyebrows, like a pair of air quotes, and he tends to deliver his favorite adjective, 'edgy'... "

"... with a flat affect and maximum sarcastic intent. It is a sort of implicit running assertion that the edges of acceptable American political discourse — edges set by previous generations, like the one that fought the Nazis — are laughable. 'I don’t want you to think I’m some "edgy" Republican,' he says, while flatly denouncing the concept of democracy. 'I don’t even think those things should be "edgy,"' he says, while defending his assertion that Jews run the worlds of finance and the media, and 'appear to be working more in line with their own interests than everybody else’s.'"

This guy says a lot of things "while" saying other things. How is this even done?*

The text is from "A Voice of Hate in America’s Heartland" by Richard Fausset in the NYT.
Before white nationalism, his world was heavy metal. He played drums in two bands, and his embrace of fascism, on the surface, shares some traits with the hipster’s cooler-than-thou quest for the most extreme of musical subgenres. Online, he and his allies can also give the impression that their movement is one big laugh — an enormous trolling event put on by self-mocking, politically incorrect kids playing around on the ash heap of history.

On the party’s website, the swastika armband is formally listed as a “NSDAP LARP Armband.” NSDAP was the abbreviation for Hitler’s Nazi Party. LARP stands for “Live-Action Role Playing,” a term originally meant to describe fantasy fans who dress up as wizards and warlocks.

But the movement is no joke. The party, Mr. Hovater said, is now approaching 1,000 people. He said that it has held food and school-supply drives in Appalachia. “These are people that the establishment doesn’t care about,” he said.
The story seemed to need a second story to explain it. Published on the same day at the NYT is "I Interviewed a White Nationalist and Fascist. What Was I Left With?":
And yet what, of any of this, explained Mr. Hovater’s radical turn?... After I had filed an early version of the article, an editor at The Times told me he felt like the question had not been sufficiently addressed. So I went back to Mr. Hovater in search of answers. I still don’t think I really found them...

Sometimes a soul, and its shape, remain obscure to both writer and reader. I beat myself up about all of this for a while, until I decided that the unfilled hole would have to serve as both feature and defect....
These are people that the establishment doesn’t care about.... You're already writing him off as an enigma. But why was he important enough to drag into the spotlight in the first place? You're ending your mini-opus in the style of "Citizen Kane,"** but the Kane character was undeniably an important man. Why not leave Tony Hovater alone? The answer must be that he serves a purpose for you and the NYT. You could put some effort into self-examination: Why are you using him?
___________________

* Is it like Tuvan throat singing?



I was walking along the Lake Mendota shoreline the other day, and I said "What is that sound?" Nearby was a man standing on a short pier facing the lake, and as I walked closer I realized all that sound was coming out of him. Unearthly and beautiful, just like in that video clip. I felt very strongly at that moment, yes, that is what human beings should be doing with the lake. There should be a person every 50 feet or so along the shoreline, facing the lake, speaking to it in celestial sound.

**

167 comments:

Hagar said...

Fascism was about re-constituting the German empire to re-open The Great War and finally win it for the German "race." This dream died with Hitler in 1945.

John Lynch said...

Can I interview a Communist and make national news? I think there are more than 1000 of them.

mockturtle said...

Ah, yes, that ever-present straw man, the white supremacist.

Matthew Sablan said...

So I'm reading Faust's "I Interviewed..." and I'm wondering: How many other NYT stories does the editor and writer both feel was a failure get printed because it suits their narrative?

Michael K said...

The left is very interested in the "White Nationalists." The fact that there are so so is not a matter of importance.

"Black Lives Matter" is a big deal to the left so they must try to find a reaction.

It's why they search out bakers to bake gay wedding cakes.

Hagar said...

IOW, fascism was about how to put an industrialized western european nation on a total war footing.

whitney said...

"In 2012,Mr Hovater was incensed by media coverage of the Travon Martin shooting, believing the story had been distorted to make a villain of George Zimmerman, the white man that shot the black teenager."

The writer would have more credibility if he'd left that out

Matthew Sablan said...

Wow. If I ever admitted to my editor: "Yeah, I don't have an answer to why we're writing this," then... I'd have not been published.

rehajm said...

The answer must be that he serves a purpose for you and the NYT. You could put some effort into self-examination: Why are you using him?

Foundational think pieces to later promote that every Republican voter is a Nazi though I'm now uncertain if the motive is to influence elections or provide Sunday comfort to their leftie readership.

rhhardin said...

White supremacist isn't anything particular other than not buying PC. There are varieties of ways to reject PC.

I favor good readings of situations over bad, but there are others.

Derbyshire's categories are good

http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/RadioDerb/2016-12-02.html

written in response to John McWhorter. Scroll down to item 05.

Paco Wové said...

"while flatly denouncing the concept of democracy"

Come on, this needs more than a paraphrase. What did he actually say? "I don’t want you to think I’m some "edgy" Republican, and I flatly denounce the concept of democracy!" Writing like this... well, it causes me to suspect that the writer is trying to pull a fast one.*

---

*Unless the article does spell it out, and Althouse neglected to include that part. In that case shame on her, and shame on me for being to lazy to click on the link. But somehow I don't think so.

Sebastian said...

"But why was he important enough to drag into the spotlight in the first place? . . . Why not leave Tony Hovater alone? . . . Why are you using him?"

Why, oh, why? Very subtly hinting at the obvious: that the left likes playing up the new NSDAP (1,000 members!) to tar "the right" as "nazis," the better to pursue power for real socialism.

Luke Lea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matthew Sablan said...

"In 2012, Mr. Hovater was incensed by the media coverage of the Trayvon Martin shooting, believing the story had been distorted to make a villain of George Zimmerman, the white man who shot the black teenager."

-- Ah, he's not white-Hispanic any more.

Matthew Sablan said...

Paco: He states later he wants a meritocracy or a white ethno-state, specifically being quoted about land owners. At least, that's what the jumble of paraphrase and half quotes makes me think.

Matthew Sablan said...

For all the author's statement that the guy has nothing outside of his extremism, he buries at the end that the guy skipped Charlottesville to spend time with his fiancee.

Achilles said...

The left isn’t honest. They are enemies of freedom and must resort to lies and violence to take power. It is easier to justify violence against national socialists.

They have a habit of accusing others of doing what they are doing.

EDH said...

I can just hear the discussion with the writer's NYT editors.

"It's a think piece, about a low-level white nationalist."

L. Ron Halfelven said...

NSDAP was the abbreviation for Hitler’s Nazi Party. LARP stands for “Live-Action Role Playing,” a term originally meant to describe fantasy fans who dress up as wizards and warlocks.

It's no accident that the SS logo was "Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!"

Matthew Sablan said...

Quotes from the essay the NYT linked to:

"Do we have a police state? Yup. You must have one if you to keep a multicult mishmash of people and cultures from tearing each other apart, especially when certain demographics are disproportionately represented in violent crime.

Do we live in a surveillance state? Yup. How else can you maintain a semblance of control and safety when you allow people from areas prone to violent extremism into your country with little vetting?"

Oddly enough, the left also agrees we have a surveillance and police state. Once you get to the fringe extremes, things start looking a lot alike.

Lloyd W. Robertson said...

Why use a white nationalist? I guess many of us are thinking the obvious: according to the NYT, Trump's election is worse than the election of Jeb Bush or Mike Pence would have been--Trump has encouraged white nationalists, if he is not one of them, their membership is on the increase (I asked my son for evidence of this, and he was evasive), never mind the fascists who are taking over campuses, worry more about these old-fashioned fascists who are few and widely dispersed. A lot of Republicans are secretly like this, or something.

chickelit said...

The photo of bookshelf is interesting. The tome on the far right, William Shirer's "The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich," is the one with the swastika dust jacket. That must be a Doubleday first edition, because my mother had the very same book. I read it growing up and can't imagine a more first person account of anti-fascism- particularly of the sort that came out of 20th century Berlin. But of course in this NYT hit piece, the effect is to make us believe that Hovator reads Nazi propaganda. Pathetic.

I wonder if Fausett has any Walter Duranty scribblings on his bookshelf?

Matthew Sablan said...

Also, the author DOES have an explanation of what turned him to being extremist in there. I read it, and there are two things.

1. Ron Paul losing in the primary fight to milquetoast, moderate Republicans.

2. Realizing that the government was failing Americans: "His faith in mainstream solutions slipped as he toured the country with one of the metal bands. “I got to see people who were genuinely hurting,” he said. “We played coast to coast, but specifically places in Appalachia, and a lot of the Eastern Seaboard had really been hurt.”"

How did neither the author or his editor realize this?

Unknown said...

“I was walking along the Lake Mendota shoreline the other day, and I said "What is that sound?" Nearby was a man standing on a short pier facing the lake, and as I walked closer I realized all that sound was coming out of him. Unearthly and beautiful, just like in that video clip. I felt very strongly at that moment, yes, that is what human beings should be doing with the lake.”

Perhaps he was imploring the heavens that people like Mr. Hovater never become President of a powerful nation.

chickelit said...

How did neither the author or his editor realize this?

I want to say one word to you, Matthew, just one word.

Are you listening?

Narrative

Unknown said...

In Defense of American Fascism. An alternate title for this blogpost.

chickelit said...

Is it fair to say that the whole reason for The New York Times's existence is set and to control the narrative as much as possible. Why would they exist otherwise?

Yancey Ward said...

I have never heard of Mr. Hovater, but I have heard of the band The Paramedic, and have actually listened to both of their albums before.

chickelit said...

An alternative motivation for Fausset's piece is to push back at the tyranny of the Heartland gaze.

james james said...

In Seattle everyone hates the Nazis.

Young, old -- even the pasty white cis-gender dudes -- they all hate the Nazis. Because they are Good People. And Good People hate Nazis. There are bumper stickers. So you know they are serious about this.

And they know where all of those Nazis are. The Nazis and the White Supremacists live just on the other side of the Cascades. Eastern Washington. Republicans, Nazis: they are all practically at the door.

Seattle will be vigilant. There is a church in the University District -- an old brick church where Seattle people no longer go to church -- that has a giant 'Black Lives Matter' banner hung above the front doors. Yes: vigilant. Nazis don't think black lives matter, obviously. There is a problem. It is capital 'R' and it rhymes with Racist. Well, actually, it is Racist. Nazis are Racist. Again: bumper stickers. The Coexist bumper sticker has symbols of all kinds, but no swastika: this is on purpose.

On the side of the church the heroin kids shoot up. The heroin kids hate the Nazis, too.

Seattle is on the same page, regarding Nazis. Seattle is Good People.

-jj

Fernandistien said...

Sailer: "The Onion: Metal Drummer Likes Edgy Ideas"


Michael K pontificated...
The fact that there are so so is not a matter of importance.


That would make a lot of sense if one thought about it long enough.

Luke Lea said...

Steve Sailer includes excerpts from an essay written by Mr. Hovater, which reveal him to be no ordinary heavy metal drummer:

https://goo.gl/mDqujf

You have to wonder how much the mainstream corporate media is itself responsible for the growth of white nationalism? As they did with Trump from the day he announced his candidacy, they give what at first sight seemed laughable billions of dollars of free publicity. Then, to add spice to the brew, they publish a good deal of explicitly anti-white opinion journalism which, if it were about any other group except European Americans, would be condemned as racism outright.

It must be awfully good for business since they seem unable to resist the temptation.

Unknown said...

Yes, just a typical American, right? Don’t pick on American Fascists, shame on you NYTs!

Nazis Are Just Like You and Me, Except They're Nazis Despite what you may have read in The New York Times

“Editor’s Note: This essay was inspired by “A Voice of Hate in America’s Heartland,” published in The New York Times on November 25, 2017. The Times reflected on the shortcomings of the piece after it was met with outrage and ridicule.”

“The Jews control all the money, and the world would be better off if they were dead,” he says, petting the dog. “Who’s a good boy?”

He’s a nice enough guy,” said the local grocer, Butch Tarmac, a registered Democrat. “He buys apples and pancake mix. I also like those things. But I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the bit about the one true race cleansing the soil and commanding what is rightfully theirs.”

“Hitler gets a bad rap, but he was a pretty righteous dude,” he says, half addressing me, and half addressing his four wide-eyed children. We’re all crammed into the booth like a bunch of sardines. He tells me to only refer to him and his Nazi friends as “The Traditionalist Worker Party,” and I agree to do that.“

cubanbob said...

“The Jews control all the money, and the world would be better off if they were dead,”

How is this any different from the BDS movement, the anti-Zionist and Israel is an illegitimate state positions from the Left? Don't be here, don't be there, just don't be.

LYNNDH said...

The Throat Singing is really something. I heard it in Mongolia several years ago. The in instrument, the Horse Head base is really interesting. There was no words sung though in Mongolia, just the Throat Singing sounds. Mongolia was a very interesting place. Go visit if you can.

Matthew Sablan said...

I don't understand. The NYT takes someone everyone thinks is an extremist and does everything they can to make him seem evil and wrong, and people STILL think the NYT is trying to make him look like a regular Joe? They go out of their way to try and downplay his every day Joe-ness, even burying the fact he wasn't even AT Charlottesville. Anyone who thinks the NYT is defending or promoting Nazis needs to re-read the piece and figure out how they misread it so epicly bad.

Unknown said...

From Althouse’s NYT’s link.

“And to go from mocking to wooing, the movement will be looking to make use of people like the Hovaters and their trappings of normie life — their fondness for National Public Radio, their four cats, their bridal registry.

“We need to have more families. We need to be able to just be normal,” said Matthew Heimbach, the leader of the Traditionalist Worker Party, in a podcast conversation with Mr. Hovater. Why, he asked self-mockingly, were so many followers “abnormal”?”

Mr. Hovater replied: “I mean honestly, it takes people with, like, sort of an odd view of life, at first, to come this way. Because most people are pacified really easy, you know. Like, here’s some money, here’s a nice TV, go watch your sports, you know?”

Online it is uglier. On Facebook, Mr. Hovater posted a picture purporting to show what life would have looked like if Germany had won World War II: a streetscape full of happy white people, a bustling American-style diner and swastikas everywhere.”

“What part is supposed to look unappealing?” he wrote.”

Scott said...

"Why not leave Tony Hovater alone? The answer must be that he serves a purpose for you and the NYT. You could put some effort into self-examination: Why are you using him?"

Progressivism is a tribal cult that defines itself by declaring what it's not. Tribe members are not the most self-aware people, obviously (witness the confusion progressives express when confronted with pervnado -- "How should our good people do the awful things we know Trump voters must be doing!") So in order for progressives to feel good about themselves, they have to parachute into the deepest darkest "Heartland" to ferret out a neo-Nazi whose values might be worse than their own.

Progressives are glib and silly. They stay away from guns lest they be tempted to shoot Repubilcans. And without the New York Times to constantly show them who they are or aren't, they would be totally lost in the wilderness of an unperfectable world.

Mark said...

why was he important enough to drag into the spotlight in the first place?

Narrative and agenda first. Then find (or invent) things to fit the narrative.

Former staffers of NYT have already revealed that that is the policy of the paper.

The narrative is that the country is filled with racist Confederate Nazis, and so the journalist goes out and finds people he thinks fits the pre-written story.

Bay Area Guy said...

Such a silly, stupid article. Some guy in Ohio - a 29-year old welder - has stupid ideas that happen to be on the right.

The NYT could interview 300 folks in San Fracisco and Berkeley with stupid ideas that happen to be on the Left and mostly agree with the Ohio dude.

How on earth is this news?

Oh yeah, the ever-vigilant NYT wants to blow the lid off the rising tide of American Nazism in the era of Trump!

Yawn.

Unknown said...

Did you even bother reading the article?

“They go out of their way to try and downplay his every day Joe-ness, even burying the fact he wasn't even AT Charlottesville.
—————————-

From the article:
“After he attended the Charlottesville rally, in which a white nationalist plowed his car into a group of left-wing protesters, killing one of them, Mr. Hovater wrote that he was proud of the comrades who joined him there: “We made history. Hail victory.”

In German, “Hail victory” is “Sieg heil.””

Mark said...

Meanwhile, there are nearly a thousand of these racist Confederate Nazis. A thousand! In a country of some 350 million. So many that you can't walk down the street without running into one. They are all around us! That's nearly twenty per state!

Matthew Sablan said...

Blame the writer: "The pasta was ready. Ms. Hovater talked about how frightening it was this summer to watch from home as the Charlottesville rally spun out of control. Mr. Hovater said he was glad the movement had grown."

Matthew Sablan said...

I remembered the line at the end more than the one buried in the middle; it looks like the writer also just sucks at writing.

EDH said...

On Facebook, Mr. Hovater posted a picture purporting to show what life would have looked like if Germany had won World War II: a streetscape full of happy white people, a bustling American-style diner and swastikas everywhere.”

Sounds like Portland.

In the July 18 column about the Washington Cracker Co. building on E. Pacific Ave., it was mentioned that the cookie and cracker company used the swastika as a its symbol. It was on many packages and was seen as a wholesome, if exotic, symbol before its use by the German Nazi party. In the photos above, you can see a ghost image of the swastika on a Portland bakery building left over from the era of the Oregon/Washington Cracker Companies. Research tells us that the symbol is found in the ancient imageries of Greece, Scandinavia, and Native American tribes...

In the column about Hillyard High School, now the Agnes Kehoe Apartments, a cheeky photo shows the Hillyard Panther football players roughing up an "Indian," not because they're racist, but because the North Central High School Indians were their arch enemies during the football season.

Pinandpuller said...

Go purify yourself in the waters of Lake Mendota, Charlie Murphy.

Drago said...

Now that we know Ingas beloved John Conyers likes to meet with female lobbyist wearing only his underwear its likely the Ingas will have to dredge up another baker who doesnt want to cater a gay wedding or perhaps an Uber driver somewhere who doesnt like the cultural slide.

Unknown said...

“Now that we know Ingas beloved John Conyers likes to meet with female lobbyist wearing only his rwear...”

If this was true, why would “Inga” have said the day this news came out, that he needs to resign? Nice attempt at “squirrel!”, lol.

Unknown said...

“Why not leave Tony Hovater alone? The answer must be that he serves a purpose for you and the NYT. You could put some effort into self-examination: Why are you using him?"

The question should be, why leave Tony Hovater alone? Why do you want to normalize Naziism in America? Yes self examination is very much in order.

Michael K said...

"Why do you want to normalize Naziism in America? Yes self examination is very much in order."

Naziism is a tiny fragment of the looney population along with ovovegans. Why focus so much attention on them, as if they were a significant force ?

Matthew Sablan said...

"Why do you want to normalize Naziism in America?"

-- It isn't the normalized right that argues that Israel is a terrorist state and may not have the right to exist.

Unknown said...

“Naziism is a tiny fragment of the looney population along with ovovegans. Why focus so much attention on them, as if they were a significant force ?”

If only everyday Germans had paid more attention to the Nazis when they were first emerging.

Mountain Maven said...

The problem is not this excrable piece, it's that the TV news and local papers will run with it and perpetuate its lies.

Unknown said...

“It isn't the normalized right that argues that Israel is a terrorist state and may not have the right to exist.”

Who chanted “Jews will not replace us!” in Charlottesville? Horvath was among those marches holding torches. The guy that Althouse thinks is being picked on by the NYTs.

YoungHegelian said...

NSDAP was the abbreviation for Hitler’s Nazi Party.

Sigh. I'd be more willing to believe this stuff if the people who wrote it could keep their details straight.

The word "Nazi" is also an abbreviation. Matter of fact, it's an abbreviation of the same thing that NSDAP is: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, or the National Socialist German Workers Party.

Funny how the article never mentions what Nazi or NSDAP are abbreviations of. That might be a little confusing & upsetting to the NYT readership.

Unknown said...

“The problem is not this excrable piece, it's that the news and local papers will run with it and perpetuate its lies.”

What parts in this article were “lies”. Did Horvath dispute any thing that was in this article?

Matthew Sablan said...

"Who chanted “Jews will not replace us!” in Charlottesville?"

-- People both the right and left condemned, that is, not normalized.

YoungHegelian said...

@Unknown,

Who chanted “Jews will not replace us!” in Charlottesville?

I'm sure the guys in Chancellorsville did, Un. What the hell does that have to do with the point that there's an awful lot of left-wing antisemitism out & about now? Does the fact that the far right has anti-Semitic elements cancel out the fact that the far left does also?

Earnest Prole said...

The movement is no joke. The party, Mr. Hovater said, is now approaching 1,000 people

In other words, about the size of a quilting club in a single Midwestern American city, but with less political influence.

Unknown said...

“But why was he important enough to drag into the spotlight in the first place? You're ending your mini-opus in the style of "Citizen Kane,"** but the Kane character was undeniably an important man. Why not leave Tony Hovater alone? The answer must be that he serves a purpose for you and the NYT. You could put some effort into self-examination: Why are you using him?

The purpose he serves is to remind us about what the seeds hate and bigotry sowed in Europe. Why should we normalize what he stands for in this country? What has America become?

chuck said...

The NYTimes lives in a fantasy world and they want you to join them there.

Unknown said...

Dude pretty much sounds like Louis Farrakhan. Ebony and ivory!

Unknown said...

“The NYTimes lives in a fantasy world and they want you to join them there.”

What in this article was a fantasy? You didn’t read it, did you?

Unknown said...

“Dude pretty much sounds like Louis Farrakhan.”

And both should be pariahs in our society.

YoungHegelian said...

@Unknown,

And both should be pariahs in our society.

And if you said that in public at any Democratic Party confab in any major urban area in this country of ours, you'd be asked to leave.

Unknown said...

Is this what American men died for in WW2 Europe, to see Fascism normalized in America? I imagine thousands of American GIs killed in action fighting Naziism, turning in their graves.

This blogpost is shameful and disgusting.

Saint Croix said...

Interesting how the NYT unites people across the political spectrum.

Unknown said...

"What has America become?"

A place where every week more African-Americans die as a result of Democrat policies than from all the Neo-Nazi shitheels ever.

That's OK though. The Democrat policies are designed to keep African-Americans in a state of dependency. The Democrat Party's very existence depends on it. And you can't keep a people down without killing a certain percentage of them. Put another rainbow on your Facebook page

YoungHegelian said...

@Unknown,

Is this what American men died for in WW2 Europe, to see Fascism normalized in America? I imagine thousands of American GIs killed in action fighting Naziism, turning in their graves.

This blogpost is shameful and disgusting.


Is there a brand of pearls that you recommend as best for pearl clutching?

Unknown said...

This sexual harassment scare is nothing. In a generation or two, when the history of what the Democrats have done to African-Americans is honestly examined, the shit is going to hit the fan so hard that it will destroy the evil, cynical, profoundly racist institution known as the Democrat Party.

Unknown said...

Just remember Nazis in Germany also looked very normal and harmless when you saw them in their homes, with their kinder on their laps and the hausfrau in the kitchen baking strudel. Then go several meters out of that sweet little German Dorf, and see the Arbet Macht Frei above the gate.

Unknown said...

“Is there a brand of pearls that you recommend as best for pearl clutching?”

If only more German’s had clutched their pearls.

chuck said...

> Just remember Nazis in Germany also looked very normal and harmless when you saw them in their homes, with their kinder on their laps and the hausfrau in the kitchen baking strudel.

So you were there. Were you a Nazi?

YoungHegelian said...

Traditionally, Mongolian throat singing is a male activity. But, sometimes the chicks can knock one out of the park. The real fun starts around 1:03.

Unknown said...

And someone like Inga, eagerly and blindly screaming the Party's bile, is exactly the kind of blows hausfrau who would cheer as the Jews were herded through the gates. And then deny all knowledge when the liberators showed up. But she'd still hate the Jews.

Unknown said...

“So you were there. Were you a Nazi?”

I didn’t exist during those times. I’m a baby boomer.

Angel-Dyne said...

But why was he important enough to drag into the spotlight in the first place?

He wasn't. But they can't find any non-obscure people to shoe-horn into their pre-fab narrative. They've got their narrative and they're sticking to it, regardless of its lack of purchase on reality.

Newspaper writers have to cater to the subscriber base, and even not particularly bright ones like this guy can figure out what the customer wants.

E.g.:

...edges set by previous generations, like the one that fought the Nazis...

[Eye roll]

But, but, Mr. NYT writer, the generation of Americans who fought the Nazis were not "who we are", according to contemporary goodthink dogma. They were, what, 85-90% white, and they believed and were comfortable with all sorts of things that are anathema to your present readership. Why are you invoking these awful people as any kind of historical precedent?

Lol, because they "fought the Nazis", and as long as you, and your readers, can lock-down your brains to thinking of them only in that light, just for the limited amount of time necessary to fill up the comic-book panels requisite to a single article pushing a narrow point of propaganda, you can use them for your "analysis". (Tomorrow you will have to vilify the same people, but don't worry, your readers won't even notice the inconsistency.)

Jim at said...

Can I interview a Communist and make national news? I think there are more than 1000 of them.

No shit.

Big Mike said...

So there are people off on the right — as the Times defines the right — who are every bit as extreme as your average bien pensant mainstream Democrat. Now there’s balance for you. People in my the center of the Democrats do not grasp how extreme, and how full of bile, they appear to normal people.

Yancey Ward said...

YH wrote:

"Is there a brand of pearls that you recommend as best for pearl clutching?"

Ok, I am shamelessly going to steal this for future use.

Unknown said...

"But why was he important enough to drag into the spotlight in the first place?"

And you can bet that this guy is over-the-moon that the NYT saw fit to temporarily drag him out of obscurity. I don't know how many copies of the NYT you can lay your hands on in Bumfuck, Wherever, but I bet this dude bought every single one. Like his Leftist counterparts, you can't shame someone with something they don't feel is shameful.

Jim at said...

Inga's fear of Nazis! Nazis! Nazis everywhere!!!! may be the impetus that finally pushes her over the edge and into a padded room.

One can certainly hope.

cf said...

The entire Alt-Right Archetype is a mirage of the Totalitarian Elite to herd us properly. Ptewy.

But, Ann, the single asterisk portion, the throat singing and your image of every fifty feet along your beautiful lake, another and another --

Won't you separate that out as its own? I would love to dream on it, comment on it, share it with special others, but not as a subset of such fussy-butt puffery as this NYT enforcement action.

That graph is the most real and True thing of this post.

Consider it?

Achilles said...

Unknown said...
“Is there a brand of pearls that you recommend as best for pearl clutching?”

If only more German’s had clutched their pearls.

Inga would cheer as all her political opponents were herded onto a train. That is the point of the NYT piece. All of their political opponents must be Nazi's so it is ok to beat them up, take their stuff, and kill them off.

Replace "Jew" with "Trump supporter" in all of her posts.

The leftists have always been enemies of freedom and they are not particularly creative. If Hillary had won it is pretty easy to guess what these pieces of shit would be doing to us now.

You will never be allowed into power again.

YoungHegelian said...

But why was he important enough to drag into the spotlight in the first place?

Here's the big problem with a modern liberal publication doing a detailed write-up of someone on the far right. The story has to be written in such a way as to show the subject as a pathetic figure, so that the readership can simultaneously loath & pity him (it's always a "him", by the way).

The subject can never be someone who actually is historically & ideologically literate, because that upsets the great narrative of the liberal left -- that National Socialism & Fascism are "stupid" ideologies, ideologies that function only by hate & violence. See, that's how liberals know they're good people. They don't believe "stupid" things. If there are ideologies that are sophisticated & evil, then their whole moral foundations come crashing down, since they consider consider evil to be a form of stupidity.

That's why the entire post-war history of the Left (until very recently & only on a scholarly level) has been to denigrate the ideological depth of both National Socialism & Italian Fascism. They were not ideologies, like Bolshevism or Liberalism. They were social frauds, power grabs masquerading as political movements. Of course, that this view made hash of any attempt to understand the historical development of either movement was ignored in favor of the more politically useful "hate & violence" explanation.

Conversely, for ideologies that the liberal left knows to be capable of subtle analysis & insight, e.g. the various dialects of Marxism, the liberal left has great difficulty in coming to terms with the massive evils that Marxism has wrought through history. It just doesn't compute. Folks that smart just can't be that evil. And no matter how high the pile of skulls grows, the liberals & the left works hard to maintain their invincible ignorance.

Unknown said...

Who makes up the Alt Right?

The Alt Right is an extremely loose movement, made up of different strands of people connected to white supremacy. One body of adherents is the ostensibly “intellectual” racists who create many of the doctrines and principles of the white supremacist movement. They seek to attract young educated whites to the movement by highlighting the achievements and alleged intellectual and cultural superiority of whites. They run a number of small white supremacist enterprises that include think tanks, online publications and publishing houses. These include Radix and Washington Summit Publishers, both run by Richard Spencer; Counter Currents Publishing, run by Greg Johnson; American Renaissance, run by Jared Taylor; and The Right Stuff, a political and social blog with a number of contributors.

Another strand of the Alt Right consists of younger racists savvy with social media and Internet communications. In recent months, a number of these Alt Righters have promoted Donald Trump’s* presidential bid, seeing the populist candidate as someone tougher than so-called “cuckservatives,” thanks to his controversial stands on issues ranging from immigration to Muslims in America
Alt Righters like to try to use terms such as “culture” as substitutes for more lightning rod terms such as “race,” or promote “Western Civilization” as a code word for white culture or identity. They do not make explicit references to white supremacy like the “14 words” a slogan used by neo-Nazis and other hardcore white supremacists. The “14 words” refers to the expression, “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.” Even though Alt Righters share the sentiment behind the “14 words” they’re more inclined to talk about preserving European-American identity.

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/backgrounders/alt-right-a-primer-about-the-new-white-supremacy

Unknown said...

“What is the impact of the Alt Right?

Though the Alt Right is not a movement, per se, the number of people who identify with it is growing. It includes a number of young people who espouse racist and anti-Semitic beliefs. It has a loud presence online. The intellectual racists who identify as part of the Alt Right also run a growing number of publications and publishing houses that promote white supremacist ideas. Their goal is to influence mainstream whites by exposing them to the concept of white identity and racial consciousness.

The term “Alternative Right” is a conscious attempt by these people to stake out part of the conservative spectrum and to claim that they deserve a voice in conservative conversations. The term “Alternative Right” explicitly avoids the use of the word “race” and conjures rebel or anti-establishment figures—often attractive to youth. The “Alt Right” is in a sense an attempt by white supremacists to infiltrate conservative conversations that have largely deliberately excluded them in recent decades.”

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/backgrounders/alt-right-a-primer-about-the-new-white-supremacy

Unknown said...

There are far more than 1000.

What is the ideology of the Alt Right?

Alt Right adherents identify with a range of different ideologies that put white identity at their centers. Many claim themselves as Identitarians, a term that originated in France with the founding of the Bloc Identitaire movement and its youth counterpart, Generation Identitaire. Identitarians espouse racism and intolerance under the guise of preserving the ethnic and cultural origins of their respective counties. American Identitarians such as Richard Spencer claim to want to preserve European-American (i.e., white) culture in the U.S. As Michael McGregor, a writer and editor for Radix wrote in an article in the publication, Identitarians want “the preservation of our identity--the cultural and genetic heritage that makes us who we are.” Identitarians reject multiculturalism or pluralism in any form.
Others in the Alt Right identify as so-called radical traditionalists, people who want to preserve what they claim are traditional Christian values but from a uniquely white supremacist perspective. The Traditionalist Youth Network is a group that espouses a white supremacist form of Christianity and promotes “family and folk” and separation of the races.

Others in the Alt Right simply identify as white nationalists, who want to preserve the white majority in the U.S., claiming that whites losing their majority status is equivalent to “white genocide.” They favor propaganda on subjects such as immigration and “black crime” as “evidence” of this ostensible ethnic cleansing of whites.

There are people with other beliefs who fall under the umbrella of the Alt Right but all share a fixation on white identity as central to their ideology. Different segments of the Alt Right may refer to themselves as neo-reactionaries (those who reject liberal democracy and ideas associated with the Enlightenment. Some neo-reactionaries refer to their theories as the “Dark Enlightenment.”) Others may call themselves “race realists” or alternately “HBD” advocates, a reference to human biodiversity (those who believe that one’s race governs traits such as behavior and intelligence—with non-whites being inferior to whites). However they define themselves, Alt Righters reject egalitarianism, democracy, universalism and multiculturalism.

A number of Alt Righters are also blatantly anti-Semitic and blame Jews for allegedly promoting anti-white policies such as immigration and diversity. Alt Righters mock conservative support of Israel as anti-white. The woman behind the Alt Right Twitter handle recently wrote, “I support ALL Jews living in Israel or a defined area.”“

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/backgrounders/alt-right-a-primer-about-the-new-white-supremacy

Jupiter said...

Unknown said...

"Who chanted “Jews will not replace us!” in Charlottesville?"

As a matter of fact, what they were chanting was "You will not replace us!". You may recall, that the proximate occasion of the Charlottesville gathering was not the desire of American Jews to destroy the many lovely NAZI monuments that a previous generation of American NAZIs had erected in Charlottesville.

chickelit said...

For minute there I thought Inga was going to associate Steve Bannon with the alt.right.

buwaya said...

I can understand the feeling about the lake.
Once in a while we would hear Mass at the Benedictine Abbey, which had a small chapel. A sung Mass, by the sisters. It was very often standing room only, in the Manila heat, so one suffered for ones faith.

There is a reason to do it that way, heaven and its angels seem brought to earth, religion in the senses rather, or also, very different from the intellectual, philosophical religion we were taught. And such things nee d no precio us metals or great investment, just a group of quite random people devoted to the purpose of learning to sing like that.

Michael K said...

"Who chanted “Jews will not replace us!” in Charlottesville?"

Nobody, Inga. They were chanting "You will not replace us" after blacks have been talking about killing white babies.

This is what you get when racism on one side is not condemned.

Unknown said...

“As a matter of fact, what they were chanting was "You will not replace us!".

No. As a matter of fact they most certainly WERE chanting ”Jews will not replace us!” interspersed with “You will not replace us”. And just who do you think is the “you” they speak of?

“Jews will not replace us!”

Angel-Dyne said...

Scott: Progressives are glib and silly.

I can't be the only one reading that article who noticed the reversal of the rube/slicker polarity between Flyoverian/NYT writer. The targeted "rube" can certainly be read as trolling the designated "sophisticate", who (along with his editor) comes across as the clueless, gullible one.

NYT articles have been trending that way, but it's very plain, and hilarious, in this one.

I think Mr. Hovater is trolling Mr. Fausset to some degree, though that degree may be exaggerated by the stupidity of Fausset's writing. And by the hysterical reaction, which is so thoroughly text-book troll-bait reaction. NYT readers (at least the reacting ones) are really starting to resemble a Jerry Springer audience.

Phil 3:14 said...

"His political evolution — from vaguely leftist rock musician to ardent libertarian to fascist activist "

Why is this seen as a stepwise movement rightward?

Howard said...

Drago: John Conyers likes to meet with female lobbyist wearing only his underwear That's real sick. He makes women wear his underwear. It's gotta be some weird trans sect. Any idea what's the appropriate pronoun?

Phil 3:14 said...

When and where was the meme of the straight-laced, white midwestern rural or suburban covert nazi created? Watching movies of the 30's or 40's I don't see it. It seems like something that grew out of the 50's when suburbanites were not cool and suspect

buwaya said...

Its an interesting identification with Fascism.

Fascism is a highly variable political ideology, not very coherent as a set of propositions, or of emotions, or even in its most consistent quality as a sort of aesthetic, it varied tremendously. Anyone in the US, Democrats most certainly included, could easily package their program as some sort of fascism and make a decent historical case for it.

The Spanish Fascists, the old Falange, were left-wing radicals to a great degree. As Nationalists they lagged behind the extremes of the military factions, and they were distrusted by the military, the religious and aristocratic traditionalists, and much of the entrepreneurial middle class. It was typical in those days for the other factions to call them "nuestros rojos" - "our reds". They were eventually subsumed into the post-civil war Nationalist polity as a very junior partner.

Howard said...

Nazi's are rare and don't represent the mainstream right Trump supporter. That might be believable if the right wing Trump supporters didn't get all triggered and shit over a lame-ass NYT arctickle that only elite hipsters who don't vote read.

But that's not important, please exit through the Althouse Amazon cornhole for the latest black friday deals in psychological Viagra disguised as "tactical" consumer products.

Unknown said...

The New York Times set out to meet and listen to the people they imagine reside in the heartland, aka: Flyover Country, and that are responsible for the bigot in chief winning the 2016 election. This is the guy they found. Someone most of us had never heard of before now. Who, even with all his fellow travelers following along, couldn't elect the dog catcher in my town.

-sw

Jupiter said...

Unknown said...
"As a matter of fact they most certainly WERE chanting ”Jews will not replace us!” interspersed with “You will not replace us”. And just who do you think is the “you” they speak of?"

I stand corrected. It appears the two chants were interspersed.

As to "who is you", I'm thinking you is you, Unknown. And I hope they're right. You will not replace us.

Angel-Dyne said...

Howard: Nazi's are...

The grocers' national socialists.

Jupiter said...

We can agree, can't we, that your plan, and intention, is to replace us?

Unknown said...

“We can agree, can't we, that your plan, and intention, is to replace us?”

No actually we can’t agree on that. Quit projecting.

buwaya said...

Antisemitism is not a consistent quality of Fascism. The proto-fascisms of extremist nationalists sometimes were antisemitic, but for the most part this seems incidental, such as in Sabino Aranas Basque nationalism. These people hated anyone who did not fit into their definition of their group.

In Italy, with its diversity and ongoing ethnic mixing as a consequence of its industrial revolution, the definitive iteration of Fascism was an urban intellectual thing and had a rather inclusive flavor, and not surprisingly had a large number of Jews in its leadership, among them Mussolini's longest-serving mistress.

Other Fascisms had variable attitudes towards Jews. Peron, in very diverse Argentina, was quite friendly to Jews and relaxed old conservative laws against them.

Unknown said...

Meet the guy who spent 12 months undercover in Europe's alt-right movement. "They see this as a culture war — and they believe they’re winning.”

“Over the course of twelve months, he developed relationships with some of Europe’s and America’s most prominent alt-right figures. He attended their events, gave speeches at their conferences, and documented their leadership structure, organizational network, and plans for future events. He even spent much of last summer in the United States, hobnobbing with alt-right leaders and eventually marching at the Charlottesville rally in August.

What he told me was disturbing.

“A lot of people underestimate how serious this is. They think national socialism is a relic of the ‘30s,” he said. “I can tell you that it definitely isn’t. These people are committed, and racism and anti-Semitism are absolutely at the core of what they believe and do.

“Their goal is to change the culture, and that means making their ideas mainstream,” he told me. “They want it to be okay to hold their opinions in public. They want to be able to express their racist ideas in the public square so that they can be openly talked about.”


Our full conversation...”

buwaya said...

The NYT is important because it reflects what your masters actually think. Its not written for hipsters but for billionaires and their milieu.

Yes of course they call you Nazis, because they really do think you are Nazis. They really do hate you.

MattL said...

I'd like to think that the NYT finally finding a group of people following identity politics meant that they were about to sour on the whole genre, but I think this particular group just falls on the wrong side of the Who? Whom? equation.

buwaya said...

In US universities there is no middle ground, anymore.
You are for the expunging of all of Western civ (and Eastern civ for that matter), the utter removal of Milton and Shakespeare and Aristotle and Cervantes (and Confucius).
Or you are on the other side. Which is apparently fascist.

YoungHegelian said...

@BP,

In Italy, with its diversity and ongoing ethnic mixing as a consequence of its industrial revolution, the definitive iteration of Fascism was an urban intellectual thing and had a rather inclusive flavor, and not surprisingly had a large number of Jews in its leadership, among them Mussolini's longest-serving mistress.

Yep. Among the leading Jewish members of the Fascist Party in Italy were members of the famous Italian industrialist family, the Olivettis. It wasn't until 1938, that the Germans, flabbergasted by the number of Jews among the Italian Fascist Party, forced the Italians into promulgating "race laws" against the Italian Jews. The IF party theorists thought this was stupid, but Italy was so bogged down in African debacles that they desperately needed German military support.

I kinda, sorta take issue with some of the folks (Peron, Falangists, etc) that you consider to be Fascist. There is among modern scholars of Fascism/National Socialism a yuuuuge discussion of what constitutes he "Fascist Minimum", that is, what are the basic ideological beliefs that make a movement a "Fascist" movement as opposed to a "traditionalist" conservative, "revolutionary" right-wing movement, etc. For example, Portugal's Salazar is best described not as a Fascist, but as a right-wing Corporatist party. All Fascists are corporatists, but not all corporatists are Fascists.

It's very difficult to discuss these matters without throwing around words like "Fascist", "Right-wing", etc in ways that often obscure more than they reveal, but right now it's the only language we've got.

Amadeus 48 said...

There are so many problems at the New York Times.

Can't a crusading prog publication chum the waters a little "It Can't Happen Here" bait without the faithful twittering about normalizing American Nazis? The whole purpose of this slop of rotting fish heads was to show Upper Westsiders in NYC how much they have to fear from those horrible people in Buttbump, Ohio. The readers are so far ahead of their betters in the newsroom that the editors are accused of soft-peddling American fascism while they are earnestly trying to stir up concern via oikophobia regarding Middle America.

As Indiana Jones said, "Nazis! I hate 'em!" Wake me up when you find more than 1,000 in a country of 330 million. Meantime, I'll worry about Yellowstone blowing up or that asteroid we haven't discovered yet.

YoungHegelian said...

@Unknown,

Perhaps our American & European elites would do better not to worry about so much about how the Deplorables are like the Nazis, but to worry about how much they are like the Weimar Republic, whose political, economic, & cultural failures ultimately set the stage for the Nazis' accession to power.

You see it in the quotation you published. The fear of "mainstreaming" right-wing extremist discourses. Ohhhhh, yeah. That's the problem. Just keep these views from getting any oxygen & no one will notice gang rapes of the local women by Muslim men. I mean, it's a lot easier than the political leadership, actually, you know, fixing the problems.

Once again, the Left's view of the history of the Revolutionary Right in 1920-30s Europe is constructed in such a way as minimize their failures in its rise.

Unknown said...

“On behalf of Hope not Hate, as it launches in America, I have spent 13 months infiltrating the upper echelons of the “alt-right”, a movement with strongly antisemitic, conspiracy- and race-obsessed far-right members, which has tentacles across the world, online and off. Its core belief is that “white identity” is under attack and its influence has reached as far as the White House.

“I secretly recorded people who wanted to deport Jews and Muslims and who talked of murdering leftwing opponents, and I even met people who boasted of direct links to the Trump administration. I witnessed the terrible violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, which left a woman dead after a car was driven into anti-racist protesters.

The “alternative right” (which has two wings: the harder-edged “alt-right” and the more culture-obsessed “alt-light”) has received more attention since the election of Trump and, in particular, Charlottesville. But it’s still a largely misunderstood and sometimes underestimated movement.

Exposing the inner workings of these groups is important. Using a hidden camera I did just that, as part of Hope not Hate’s wider report into the far right. But I did not spend a year infiltrating far-right groups just to catch extreme racism on camera. There are easier ways to do that – many of their views have already been published online. Certain topics, however, are discussed only behind closed doors.

Spending a year inside the far-right community numbs you. The extreme views started to feel almost normal many months ago. Few things shock you after spending a year with these people; I became desensitised and started to lose perspective of how absurd their ideology was. Ideas that I once reacted viscerally to I could listen to for hours without raising an eyebrow.

Allowing these hateful ideas to go unchallenged normalises them. It brings about a creeping acceptance: even if you’re fundamentally against these notions you learn to live with them. Indeed, I was told that this is an explicit strategy by some of the leaders of these groups.

buwaya said...

Hi Young H,

I'm an empirical sort, and I despise taxonomists. Its always an attempt to force a structure on things that are too amorphous to bear structures.

Even communism isn't simply communism. Fascism is much more diffuse than that, both in the varieties of its antecedents - consider that the essential nationalist propaganda systems of every such state come from revolutionary France - and in the nature of its descendants. There is no such thing as a boundary in any of this.

It makes it hard to think in categories, but that is a crutch. We should not be thinking in categories.

YoungHegelian said...

Allowing these hateful ideas to go unchallenged normalises them. It brings about a creeping acceptance: even if you’re fundamentally against these notions you learn to live with them. Indeed, I was told that this is an explicit strategy by some of the leaders of these groups.”

Yeah! We gotta keeps these guys under wraps. No platform. No oxygen. Fuck free speech & expression.

I mean who believes reactionary bullshit like this anymore:

Though all the winds of doctrine were let loose to play upon the earth, so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously, by licensing and prohibiting, to misdoubt her strength. Let her and Falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth put to the worse, in a free and open encounter? John Milton, Areopagitica

It's a tough row to hoe, tolerating intolerance, Unknown. But it's a big part of the great social experiment that constitutes the American polity.

Unknown said...

“Yeah! We gotta keeps these guys under wraps. No platform. No oxygen. Fuck free speech & expression.”

Is challenging you shutting down your free speech and expression?

YoungHegelian said...

@Unknown,

Is challenging you shutting down your free speech and expression?

Do even you read what you post?

rehajm said...

Wake me up when you find more than 1,000 in a country of 330 million

Yup. I read that to mean NYT discovers American Nazis are a nonexistent problem.

Unknown said...

“Allowing these hateful ideas to go unchallenged normalises them. It brings about a creeping acceptance: even if you’re fundamentally against these notions you learn to live with them. Indeed, I was told that this is an explicit strategy by some of the leaders of these groups.”

“Yeah! We gotta keeps these guys under wraps. No platform. No oxygen. Fuck free speech & expression.” YH

“Is challenging you shutting down your free speech and expression?”

“Do even you read what you post?”YH

Why you hate being challenged? Not only do I read what I post, I read what you write.

buwaya said...

We are all fascists now, on all sides, in some way.
For certain much of the US liberal coalition qualifies, in philosophy, strategy and tactics. Certainly the Chicano movement in California is not only fascist in ideology, but is directly descended from such movements dating from the 1920s in Mexico.

Even the propaganda campaign re fascists is fascist.

buwaya said...

Unknown does not argue rebuttals of what she posts.
This is dirty pool in argumentation.
Assume you are meeting in person, and can look the other in the eye.

Unknown said...

“Yes of course they call you Nazis, because they really do think you are Nazis. They really do hate you.”

Buwaya loves stirring the pot. He also pretends to care about what happens to this country. He doesn’t.

YoungHegelian said...

@unknown,

What challenge?

I'm trying to point out, in multiple posts, that you keep on posting stuff from guys who seem to think that the problem with neo-right wing extremism is that they might be "mainstreamed".

My points have been:

1) It's stupid to think that these groups have arisen in response to nothing, & that perhaps our betters might want to address the root causes of the rise of these groups.

2) In shutting down free speech for the alt-right, we risk getting free speech shut down for the rest of us. This is a common reason given by defenders of a brisk 1A as to why we tolerate hateful speech.

Just posting more & more quotations I really don't consider an "engagement" at all, much less a "challenge" to my free expression.

YoungHegelian said...

@BP,

For certain much of the US liberal coalition qualifies, in philosophy, strategy and tactics. Certainly the Chicano movement in California is not only fascist in ideology, but is directly descended from such movements dating from the 1920s in Mexico.

Frightening & eerily so. The ideological roots of the La Raza movement are simply jackboots hiding under a sombrero.

We are all fascists now, on all sides, in some way.

Think about how perfect of a fit Fascist corporatism is for identity politics leftism. What plays the role of the unifying force in a polity of identity groups? Why, a totalitarian state, which plays the role of societal equalizer.

It's so clear to me I can't believe that this isn't being openly discussed in X-studies departments & lefty confabs around the country even now.

Jupiter said...

Unknown said...
“We can agree, can't we, that your plan, and intention, is to replace us?”
"No actually we can’t agree on that. Quit projecting."

If it is not your intention to replace us, why does it bother you that we aren't going to let you?

Angel-Dyne said...

Amadeus 48: Can't a crusading prog publication chum the waters a little "It Can't Happen Here" bait without the faithful twittering about normalizing American Nazis? The whole purpose of this slop of rotting fish heads was to show Upper Westsiders in NYC how much they have to fear from those horrible people in Buttbump, Ohio. The readers are so far ahead of their betters in the newsroom that the editors are accused of soft-peddling American fascism while they are earnestly trying to stir up concern via oikophobia regarding Middle America.

One can sympathize. People like the NYT editors have to walk that fine line between demonizing and dehumanizing their designated "Other" just so much, but not too much.

Enough to give their subscribers what they want. But not enough that the base is so chronically riled up that they the demonization and dehumanization gets so out of hand, so off the deep end, that people like NYT editors might have to engage in some unpleasant self-reflection on the subject of demonizing and dehumanizing. ("It can't happen here" is never about the consequences of their ideas, behavior, failures of intellect and character, no sirree bob. If there is one thing we know about righteous progs, it is that self-reflection and self-insight are alien, deeply uncomfortable states of being to them.)

But they've been stoking the base on the evil of the deplorables for decades now, and the appetite grows with the eating. The readership is enraged that the Enemy has been depicted as possibly human, and not pure, incomprehensible evil. Even though the writer and editor beclowned themselves by avowing sanctified incomprehension.

Still, people like the editors apparently haven't been triggered into pondering if perhaps they crossed a line somewhere into "too much". No impulse to self-reflection has been triggered. Apologies have been issued for imputing humanity to The Other. (Perhaps they could snitch a paraphrase of the WaPo slogan for their own use: Irony Dies in Darkness.)

Unknown said...

“My points have been:

1) It's stupid to think that these groups have arisen in response to nothing, & that perhaps our betters might want to address the root causes of the rise of these groups.

They’ve arisen in response to a black man becoming President. They always existed under the sludge, but are now emboldened and surfacing. What has long driven these groups is hatred and bigotry.

2) In shutting down free speech for the alt-right, we risk getting free speech shut down for the rest of us. This is a common reason given by defenders of a brisk 1A as to why we tolerate hateful speech.

Who wants to shut down free speech for the Alt Right? Again, challenging their ideology isn’t shutting them down or shutting them up.

Jupiter said...

Unknown said...
"Buwaya loves stirring the pot. He also pretends to care about what happens to this country. He doesn’t."

I think he cares, but he is not about to care too much. He has mentioned that he has made arrangements to flee should the need arise. He is not among the ones you'll need to replace. That would be folks like me.

Unknown said...

“No impulse to self-reflection has been triggered.”

Indeed, not among those who need to the most.

Unknown said...

“He is not among the ones you'll need to replace. That would be folks like me.”

“Replace”? I’m here already, you dummy. You’re here too. No one is replacing anyone.

YoungHegelian said...

@unknown,

They’ve arisen in response to a black man becoming President. They always existed under the sludge, but are now emboldened and surfacing. What has long driven these groups is hatred and bigotry.

In Europe? Your posts deal with the rise of the right in Europe. Really? Even here, really?

Who wants to shut down free speech for the Alt Right?

Do you simply not pay attention to anything we've discussed here that happens on American campuses? Or, when even someone slightly right-wing attempts to make his/her voice heard in a lefty forum?

Fuck shutting down speech for the Alt-Right. There's a large contingent who wants to shut down speech for straight-line Republicans.

Jupiter said...

Unknown said...

“Replace”? "I’m here already, you dummy. You’re here too. No one is replacing anyone."

Then why are you taking our statues down?

Angel-Dyne said...

Ingabot3000: They’ve arisen in response to a black man becoming President.

Fascinating. The rise of anti-globo-agenda parties in European countries is a response to Americans (including boatloads of now-designated Deplorable Americans) electing Obama.

...And every city the whole world round
is just another American town...

Pace Randy Newman.

Unknown said...

“In Europe? Your posts deal with the rise of the right in Europe. Really? Even here, really?”

No, in Europe their hatred and bigotry for Jews has largely been transferred to Muslims. There is still anti semitism in Europe also. My posts not only deal with Alt Rightism in Europe, they deal with Alt Rightism in the US also. You didn’t read the articles, obviously.

“Fuck shutting down speech for the Alt-Right. There's a large contingent who wants to shut down speech for straight-line Republicans.”

Again, no one is shutting down speech for the Alt Right by challenging them.

Unknown said...

“Fascinating. The rise of anti-globo-agenda parties in European countries is a response to Americans (including boatloads of now-designated Deplorable Americans) electing Obama.”

Such ignorance.

No, in Europe their hatred and bigotry for Jews has largely been transferred to Muslims. There is still anti semitism in Europe also. My posts not only deal with Alt Rightism in Europe, they deal with Alt Rightism in the US also. You didn’t read the articles, obviously.

Bigotry is bigotry, in Europe and in the US.

Jupiter said...

Unknown said...

"No, in Europe their hatred and bigotry for Jews has largely been transferred to Muslims."

Actually, I don't think the Muslims needed to borrow their "hatred and bigotry for Jews" from any Europeans. They brought it with them.

YoungHegelian said...

@unknown,

Again, no one is shutting down speech for the Alt Right by challenging them.

I guess you consider "riots" to be something other than a "challenge".

Jupiter said...

Unknown, if that's rain falling on my leg, why do you have that little dick in your hand?

Angel-Dyne said...

Young H: I'm trying to point out, in multiple posts, that you keep on posting stuff from guys who seem to think that the problem with neo-right wing extremism is that they might be "mainstreamed".

My points have been:

1) It's stupid to think that these groups have arisen in response to nothing, & that perhaps our betters might want to address the root causes of the rise of these groups.

2) In shutting down free speech for the alt-right, we risk getting free speech shut down for the rest of us. This is a common reason given by defenders of a brisk 1A as to why we tolerate hateful speech.


I think there's an equally important point, 3), which is that a lot of the "right-wing extremism" and "hateful speech", with which the Great and Good have a problem, is nothing of the sort.

Unknown said...

“Actually, I don't think the Muslims needed to borrow their "hatred and bigotry for Jews" from any Europeans. They brought it with them.”

Actually, no one said they did. It’s not only Muslims who hate the Jews in Europe. They have their Alt Right, the US has has theirs.

Jupiter said...

Unknown said...

"Bigotry is bigotry, in Europe and in the US."

Well, glad to hear it. Hands across the water, and all. So, what is this "bigotry" of which you speak? And how does it differ from a rational distaste for people who intend to destroy your society and replace it with one or another hate-based gangster ideology?

Unknown said...

“Unknown, if that's rain falling on my leg, why do you have that little dick in your hand?”

“Dick”? Um, no. I am not endowed with a dick. Maybe you're peeing on yourself.

Unknown said...

“I guess you consider "riots" to be something other than a "challenge".”

Not how I would challenge you. Would you march with a tiki torch?

n.n said...

Germany's National Socialist Party was alt-left. Diversity (i.e. denigrating individual dignity or institutional racism, sexism) is a left-wing concept. Abortion chambers to deny lives deemed unworthy, inconvenient, or profitable (e.g. Planned Parenthood/Mengele clinics) is a left-wing concept. Political congruence ("=") to grant favored status to a preferred class is a left-wing concept. The left of center in America, including progressives and liberals to varying degrees, are the neo-National Socialists that the New York Times has missed hiding under a layer of privacy (and mainstream bullhorns) at the twilight fringe.

Angel-Dyne said...

Ingabot300 to me: “Fascinating. The rise of anti-globo-agenda parties in European countries is a response to Americans (including boatloads of now-designated Deplorable Americans) electing Obama.”

Such ignorance.


If only your wit was as keen as your zealotry.

Lol. You can't even recognize your own comments when they're mirrored back to you.

(I toyed with the idea of making parody Ingabot3000 posts, and seeing if anybody noticed that they weren't you. But then I realized that I couldn't attain your level of logical incoherence, and plausibly spoof your inability to remember what you wrote 1 post back, even if I tried. I must admit that what you do exhibits a perverse kind of excellence.)

n.n said...

I wonder what they think of Obama's accurate recreation of the "trail of tears" in his elective wars that were inspired by social justice and redistributive change (e.g. natural resource transfer).

Unknown said...

“Lol. You can't even recognize your own comments when they're mirrored back to you.”

Yawn. Nothing more boring than an Alt Right bigot who thinks she is clever. She isn’t.

Amadeus 48 said...

"They’ve arisen in response to a black man becoming President."

In a world where Antifa has risen from the sludge in response to an orange man becoming president, this might seem plausible to you. Note that many people voted for both the black man (twice) and the orange man. Are they colorists?

Rainbows and unicorns, baby!

The administrative state stands ready to grant everyone's every desire--and at no cost to anyone. Give them the powers, and they will do the job. The rich will become like everyone else. Were any goods or services ever to become scarce (an unlikely event), available supplies would be distributed according to a fair formula--with supplies going to those most in need, administrators filling vital functions, friends of the state, and descendants of first peoples and other victims of historic oppression.

A consultation team from the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela will be onsite to assure the prompt, efficient and fair implementation of distribution planning.

Achilles said...

Replace "Alt-right" with "Jew" in Inga's posts.

Unknown said...

The Alt Right is schizophrenic when it comes to Jews and Israel.

“Speaking in an interview on Israeli television, white nationalist Richard Spencer Wednesday said Jews were “overrepresented” when challenged on antisemitism, adding Jews and Israelis should respect him despite his supremacist views.

Spencer, who has previously courted Israeli media, despite engaging in Holocaust denial and refusing to condemn Hitler, made the remarks while speaking to Israeli state broadcaster Channel 2.

Let’s be honest,” Spencer said, when asked whether such slogans constitute anti-Semitism, according to Haaretz. “Jews are vastly overrepresented in what you could call ‘the establishment,’ that is, Ivy League educated people who really determine policy, and white people are being dispossessed from this country."

The Channel 2 anchor questioned how Jews should react to these kinds of statements. “You are speaking now with a Jewish journalist, most of our viewers are Jews. How should I feel?” he asked.“

http://www.newsweek.com/richard-spencer-demands-respect-israeli-tv-says-jews-are-overrepresented-651739

Jupiter said...

"The Channel 2 anchor questioned how Jews should react to these kinds of statements. “You are speaking now with a Jewish journalist, most of our viewers are Jews. How should I feel?” he asked.“"

I'm not sure what the answer should be, but shouldn't it involve the phrase "Jew Privilege"? I don't see how anyone could object to that. Aryan Lives Matter!

Achilles said...

Unknown said...
The Alt Right is schizophrenic when it comes to Jews and Israel.

This is cognitive dissonance slapping you in the face.

It isn't schizophrenia. You are just trying to label two distinct groups of people as part of the same movement in order to slime your political opponents.

Similar to what the Nazi party did to their political opponents.

Paco Wové said...

The Channel 2 anchor questioned how Jews should react to these kinds of statements. “You are speaking now with a Jewish journalist, most of our viewers are Jews. How should I feel?” he asked.

“As an Israeli citizen, someone who understands your identity, who has a sense of nationhood and peoplehood, and the history and experience of the Jewish people, you should respect someone like me, who has analogue feelings about whites,” Spencer said.

“You could say that I am a white Zionist—in the sense that I care about my people, I want us to have a secure homeland for us and ourselves. Just like you want a secure homeland in Israel,” he added.


Not seeing the "schizophrenia". Not agreeing with him, either.

Jupiter said...

Unknown said...
"The Alt Right is schizophrenic when it comes to Jews and Israel."

Ha ha! Unknown has discovered that psychos are crazy!

Look, the Alt-Right covers a *lot* of territory. But you don't have to be anti-semitic to think the US would be better off if George Soros was content to spend his billions on luxury yachts, instead of trying to wreck our country.

The fact is that American secular Jews are wealthy and powerful way out of proportion to their numbers, and they use that power to further Leftist causes. This may well be the result of their uneasy feeling that if America does not welcome everyone as a matter of policy, it will soon stop welcoming Jews. They've seen this movie, and they didn't like the ending. But an explanation is not an excuse. They may be happy to be one more (wealthy, powerful) tribe in a nation of (poor, weak) warring tribes. But some of us don't like the (poor, weak) future the Left seems to have planned for us. Fuck with the bull, get the horn.

mandrewa said...

I don't think that people that call themselves Nazis are Nazis. It seems obvious to me that anyone calling him or herself a Nazi is looking for a negative attention, and that is the main point of why they are doing that. That is what it is really about.

When literal National Socialists were a viable political movement, this is not at all what they were doing. They, the real thing, were quite popular. It's hard for us to appreciate just how popular they were. From what I've read, one couldn't even find a young person, in Germany, in the earlier 1930s, that didn't support the Nazis. Now you could find older people that were opposed to the Nazis without difficulty, but not among the young.

Now although literal Nazis only existed back then at that point in time, that doesn't mean I don't think that there are analogous people today. I believe there is a general human tendency this direction and that there are always a lot of people like this. But as I've already said, it's not the people calling themselves Nazis we need to worry about. They are a tiny, rather disturbed group, that hardly matter.

It's the real ones that we should worry about. And how do you identify those?

Well first we need a definition. I can see two directions to go. One is to simply to make Nazi mean any group of people that wants to wipe out an ethnic group. Well, there are lot of people like that. There always have been. In fact it may even be true that most people if you put them in the wrong or right circumstance will descend to desiring the death of another tribe. This may be a problem in human nature that we've inherited through evolution and most of us are vulnerable to. But having that potential isn't the same as actually doing it. And at any point in time there are only some people striving to do this and many others that are not.

I could easily point out certain people that want to do this right now. But I hardly need to get specific, do I?

Now the second definition of Nazi that I could make is to insist that in addition to my first definition there has to be an ideology behind the group that I want to call Nazi that is to a significant degree similar to the historical Nazis. Now that's a hard one for most people because most people have no idea what Nazi ideology actually is.

I can say that it was something like 80% Marxism and about 20% Nordic socialism, and know for myself that this is pretty darn close to the truth. But I know I've got an uphill battle persuading others of that. Most people really don't want to believe any such thing.

If I do use my second definition, who are the Nazis in America today? Well it should be obvious. It's strongest at the universities. It's not everyone there but a lot of people at the universities would welcome the genocide of certain people and are basically Marxist in their outlook. They are not historical Nazis, but they have the same spirit.

If I go to my first and more general definition, then not only are the universities included but there's a longer list of people that are also Nazi-like even if they don't sympathize with the universities.

buwaya said...

The left-left hates Jews outright.
In the UC campuses and in the more ideological Cal State ones like SF State, this is explicit. The Jews of any kind never fit into the ethnic politics coalitions. Certainly not any Jew that identifies as a Jew.
They are also excluded from party politics in places like SoCal where the ethnic politics is dominant.

Not so coincidentally liberal Jews hate Israel with a passion.

Traditional US conservatives have been solidly pro-Israel, but the love has never been reciprocated by US Jews.

To call this all complex is understatement.

cubanbob said...


"If only everyday Germans had paid more attention to the Nazis when they were first emerging."

if only everyday Russians had paid more attention to the Communists when they were first emerging.

Unknown said...

“The left-left hates Jews outright.”

“Not so coincidentally liberal Jews hate Israel with a passion.”

Now Buwaya thinks he speaks for liberals and Jews.

Jupiter said...

Mandrewa,

It does seem strange that Americans whose grandfathers fought Nazis would want to wear Nazi uniforms. You are probably correct that a lot of it is simply attention-seeking. But I don't think you are correct about the Marxism. More like 20%, and that just because it was around. Germany at the turn of the century had a good claim to being the most advanced nation on Earth, at a time when people spoke of "advanced nations" without a trace of irony. Many Germans thought they had lost a war they should have won, and had been tricked into a surrender they had thought was an armistice. German nationalism was the main ingredient in Nazism, and it was a uniquely German phenomenon. The modern tendency to call one's opponents Nazis is a reflexive attempt to tar the enemy with a convenient brush.

mandrewa said...

Jupiter, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. There were only a few nations in the world in 1930 that the world looked up to and Germany was one of them. Not everyone but plenty of people. I think what happened in Nazi Germany broke people's faith in the future. It was not only what happened, it was who did it.

Note the genocide in the Ukraine ten years earlier and the genocide in Turkey twenty-five years earlier and how little impact on the world and Western beliefs about ourselves, but Germany was different story. There Christianity failed, the universities failed, and a list of other things that people had believed in.

I don't buy the story that this is mainly about German nationalism. Nationalism is a common thing. It's an enduring human reality. You can't take something that is so general and say that's the reason, when the behavior, nationalism, is so widespread in many other places where this did not happen. Yes, I agree that if Germany weren't nationalist this might not have happened. But that's almost the same as saying that if the Germans weren't human it might not have happened. Also true, but actually not a useful observation. And it really needs to be pointed out that without nationalism, the Nazis would have won. I mean who do you think was fighting the Nazis? The anti-nationalist end of the human spectrum of behavior can be safely identified as being almost totally ineffective when it comes to resisting things like Nazi Germany.

There are plenty of people today in the west saying nationalism is an evil thing, and in some sense they believe themselves, but that's not really what's going on. There are two motivations. Either A) as part of trying to build up the EU, to create this new country called the EU, and erase the old ones, but at some point this EU will become fervently nationalist (I can't say when but it's obvious), or B) as part of an ethnic hatred, that is an anti-white ideology.

I agree that the National Socialists weren't original. But so what? Not many political movements are. But I can't take what they professed to believe and advocated and said over and over and over again, and in fact actually did, and then say that it isn't what they really are about! Well, now of course that's what everyone on the left did after World War II. I get it. But I don't accept it. It seems to me that the Nazis are what they said and did.

It seems to me we might have had a different consequence if they hadn't a political philosophy that didn't have such an affinity for genocide. It's not like we don't have a ton of examples that Marxism leads to genocide. I don't understand how people can ignore that factor. Yes, I get that it's not the only thing going on here. But there it is!

mockturtle said...

Buwaya says: The left-left hates Jews outright.
In the UC campuses and in the more ideological Cal State ones like SF State, this is explicit. The Jews of any kind never fit into the ethnic politics coalitions. Certainly not any Jew that identifies as a Jew.
They are also excluded from party politics in places like SoCal where the ethnic politics is dominant.


Ten Democrats are trying to pass a bill restricting aid to Israel that might be used to detain young Palestinians.

Angel-Dyne said...

mandrewa: I don't buy the story that this is mainly about German nationalism. Nationalism is a common thing. It's an enduring human reality. You can't take something that is so general and say that's the reason, when the behavior, nationalism, is so widespread in many other places where this did not happen. Yes, I agree that if Germany weren't nationalist this might not have happened. But that's almost the same as saying that if the Germans weren't human it might not have happened. Also true, but actually not a useful observation.

Yes. Exactly. We're just supposed to accept the mindless assertion that "nationalism" is intrinsically evil (so shut up, you bad people). It is no more inherently "problematic" than any other form of political organization.

And it really needs to be pointed out that without nationalism, the Nazis would have won. I mean who do you think was fighting the Nazis? The anti-nationalist end of the human spectrum of behavior can be safely identified as being almost totally ineffective when it comes to resisting things like Nazi Germany.

It also needs to be pointed out that supra-nationalism can also be a nasty, bloody, tyrannical business. As well as (one would think this obvious) not well-suited to anything resembling responsive democracy. (Unelected supra-national bureaucrats constantly condemning the results of fair democratic elections as "undemocratic" - one of the great Orwellian ironies of the day.)

LakeLevel said...

Oh pleeeease.
All of this is bullshit created our of whole cloth. If anyone really thinks that Trevon Martin and Michael Brown were real, moral reasons to create the racial hatred that the Democrats did with this, they are either liars, idiots, or self induced idiots. It was all a scam and this "white nationalist" bullshit is the same crap. Grow up America.

mockturtle said...

Nationalism vs. Globalism. Which is really scarier? To me, that's easy. Nothing could be more terrifying than a world government which, if globalism is carried to its extreme form, we would most certainly have. More precisely, an oligarchy dictating policy for the entire world.

chickelit said...

mockturtle said...Nationalism vs. Globalism. Which is really scarier?

The really odd thing is that just a few election cycles ago, Inga could have identified with the Dick Gephardt wing of the D-party, i.e., the anti-globalist wing. But she apparently threw that all overboard and now hates Trump for espousing some the same ideas. Inga is a real Clintonista in that regard. Sad.

But she's right in a way about anti-Semitism in Europe and to some extent in the US. Afterall, Arabs are Semites too -- not just Jews. Perhaps the odd bed-fellowship of liberal Jews and Palestinians is an odd brotherhood of Semites. Stranger things have happened.

mockturtle said...

Interesting observation, chickelit. Ishmael and Isaac were, after all, half brothers.

TML said...

The KLF used Tuvan throat singing on their incredible album "Chill Out."