"One of many reasons we left Seattle after my husband retired was for lower property taxes," writes mockturtle in the comments to my post about the GOP tax bill, where I mention that Meade and I pay more than $17,000 in property taxes on our house in Madison.
We're still here, so that means that so far with think it's worth it, but the high property tax does bother us, and when we think about where else we might want to live, taxation is a factor. But I care a lot about living somewhere that is interesting to me, and I want a house where I can walk out the door and, right from that point, have many interesting walks.
One of the places I'd consider is the one mockturtle says she left: Seattle. Washington State has the benefit of no income tax, but obviously the revenue must be found in some other way.
Sure, there are lots of places with low taxes, but name one where I'd enjoy living. We have many things here that we love, and I would not move to a worse place. $17,000 is a lot, but only the last $X thousand is spent on things I'd carve off the budget if I were given the power to structure the whole thing. And if they tried to hand that power over to me, I wouldn't even take it. That's not my line of work and not my expertise or my joy in life.
A community is a package deal. Some things you like and some things you don't. If it gets too off balance, you might leave, but only if somewhere else is better. You have to live somewhere. We've had a lot great times here. It's a beautiful neighborhood, and I can walk to 3 lakes from here. There are trees and nice architecture and shops and restaurants. I can walk to downtown. There are bike paths all over. Meade loves the mountain bike trails. We could look at the shortcomings, like the fact that the city is taking maybe an extra $500 a month from us to do things we would not do, but when we look at the good, it's close to paradise.
Maybe somewhere else is close to paradise too. Tell us about a place and maybe we will rent an apartment there and spend some time living there and give it a chance (and ultimately uproot ourselves and relocate). But we're not going to go somewhere just to improve our household budget by $500 a month (or even $2,000 a month). It's got to offer great walks, beginning at our doorstep, beautiful scenery, and a real sense of place.
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Don't forget -- the county is now going to start taking an extra $28 per vehicle too.
We only have 1 car, thankfully.
I'm thinking of Nashville to escape Western NY. You should talk to Glenn, maybe he'll rent you a room with the Law Prof courtesy rate.
You've proposed this before. With ya'lls wish list you need two places. Not necessarily two homes but a strategy to enjoy two locales over the course of a year.
If you insist on one- Missoula.
"Suburb of Madison?"
That could not meet my demand for interesting walks, right from the doorstop, in multiple directions. I don't consider a suburban development to be an interesting walk. I hate most of the architecture I see out there, and I don't want to walk past one house after another, with just a lot of driveways and no commercial streets.
"Don't forget -- the county is now going to start taking an extra $28 per vehicle too."
I know. That would be weird if it was the last straw, but it did get us talking. But maybe we just need to downsize to one car. We don't really need 2.
"If you insist on one- Missoula."
Missoula doesn't have enough there there. Also, it's a very bright, unfiltered light, and that gets to me.
I'd suggest Chattanooga, TN - beautiful country, vibrant (but not huge) city, low taxes, mild winters and a wonderful pace of life. It depends on where your house is, but there are plenty of trails and mountains, rivers and streams all around and more wonderful places within an hours drive. Atlanta, Knoxville, Nashville and Huntsville are all 2 hours or less away.
We have lived near Seattle for 27 years. The taxes are lower here and there are neighborhoods in the city of Seattle that have the type of atmosphere you seek, but housing prices are about double in Seattle over Madison. Other costs of living are higher here also. There is also a very sharp political dichotomy between deep Blue Seattle and very Red Eastern Washington.
Unfortunately, liberals create the best places to live. Damn those crafty liberals for luring smart, educated people into their lair in order to tax the bejesus out of them.
Renting for a while is a great idea. I moved to the mountains where I used to have a weekend place which I loved.
After I bought and moved in, I discovered I could no long tolerate the altitude.
Expensive mistake.
Depends how committed you are to a university town. They are always pricier. Kentucky is very nice. But even just 40 miles can make a difference. Lots of places in smaller town in Wisconsin or (Western!) Michigan are very nice indeed. (Better beer here too.)
Fayetteville, Arkansas near Wilson Park. Can walk to the park, the downtown area, the square, the library, and the university. There is an extensive bike trail system. Some restaurants on the trails have bike parking trailside.
Or a condo on Dickson Street.
I think you forgot to exclude heat. You dislike it, yes? It's one of the main reasons we're leaving Texas for (probably) Saint Paul.
"Unfortunately, liberals create the best places to live. "
Yeah. Chicago, Detroit and Baltimore are great and I understand the housing prices are reasonable.
@Meade, you said you have ties to the Shenandoah Valley; bring Althouse out here for a short trip. Of course your lady-love will need to appreciate mountain vistas as much as she likes lake shores, but maybe she will like it if she sees it.
Plus from Harrisonburg north to Martinsburg you’re close enough to DC to attend special events. Later in December the wife and I will go into the District to see the Vermeer exhibit at the National Gallery of Art.
When we moved from Illinois (also paying over $17,000 in prop taxes) to Nashville, we went from
$17k to $3400 (more expensive house in TN)
5% (when we left) income tax to 0%
sales tax basically a wash.
Smartest thing we've ever done.And our move was elective. We paid our own way down here.
Zeus is there too.
Seattle's charm is disappearing. You should take it off your maybe list. All the interestting and unique apots are being torn down for hideously ugly filing cabinets for tech bros, the politics are ugly and the cost of living is completely outrageous. Breaks my heart but what are you gonna do.
Walks are tree covered.
Bend, Oregon.
I can tell you fancy, I can tell you plain: You give something up for everything you gain.
Strange you never mentioned family.
AReasonableMan said...
Unfortunately, liberals create the best places to live. Damn those crafty liberals for luring smart, educated people into their lair in order to tax the bejesus out of them.
11/30/17, 2:45 PM
It's nice when you can price it (average home price, taxes...) to keep the riffraff out.
I am considering moving to Boston because of the walkability. Maybe DC. Why get old early? There are people here in Florida who go for "walks" in a golf cart, with their dogs riding with them. Yeesh!
Unfortunately, liberals create the best places for rich liberals to live.
Fayetteville was a wonderful place to live.
"Unfortunately, liberals create the best places to live. "
Yeah. Chicago, Detroit and Baltimore are great and I understand the housing prices are reasonable.
ARM tosses a softball.
"And there it goes..."
Boulder, Colorado.
By the way, I strongly agree about getting an apartment, or staying a while at an AirBnB. With the latter you can move between neighborhoods.
Seattle is an excellent place for those anxious to see a bum fest that puts the dreary city in first place bum wise on the west coast. More bums than Santa Monica, more bums than downtown Los Angeles, more bums than San Francisco, more bums (and this is saying something) than the bums on East Hastings in Vancouver, B C Canada. Also a great place to test out rain gear.
Durango, Colorado.
Not Boulder, Colorado Springs. Beats Boulder, Aurora, and Denver quite handily.
Ashville, NC
Greenville, SC
Charleston, SC
Savannah, GA
Nashville, TN
Knoxville, TN
Lexington, KY
Austin, TX
Roanoke, VA
Indianapolis, IN
Chattanooga, TN
Dallas, TX
Columbia, SC
Berlin, Germany in 1938 would be much like today's Madison.
Franklin, TN
Near Nashville
Google Earth the downtown. Charming.
I’ll rent first, but am strongly considering it for retirement
I oppose giving the government anymore money than is absolutely necessary. However if you truly enjoy Madison as much as you say you do, it is entirely rationally and understandable to go ahead and continue paying the high taxes to stay. What else are you going to spend that money on that would provide you with the same benefits and enjoyment? I doubt $17K puts any strain on your yearly budget. If you don't have a mortgage or it's reasonable, you're probably still doing better than renting or buying somewhere else.
Unfortunately, at some point walking will either become a chore or impossible due to age or infirmities. What to do: stay in place with the high taxes but unable to enjoy the amenities, or anticipate coming life changes and move a bit early to better prepare for a future life different than the one you have now while saving some cash?
Tough call...
New Hampshire has no sales tax! Portsmouth & Newcastle NH are extremely charming towns, historical, winding paths, trees, nature etc. It does get a little cold in the Winter, though.
Unfortunately, at some point walking will either become a chore or impossible due to age or infirmities. What to do: stay in place with the high taxes but unable to enjoy the amenities, or anticipate coming life changes and move a bit early to better prepare for a future life different than the one you have now while saving some cash?
Tough call...
If I were you, I would get a weekend place in downtown Chicago. It's really wonderful. Although the property taxes and sales tax are ridiculous.
ps. Is anyone else getting an error almost every time they try to post? Either "conflicting edits" or 502.
I've been getting "conflicting edits" for a couple of days, MayBee. And the "Althouse server" has been really sluggish.
Create a nonprofit and declare MeadeHouse a church and the HQ for your new online ministry. My older sister says that lots of her hippie friends moved down south and successfully did this in the 60s in order to avoid taxes. If you have a religious conversion next week you could probably have the nonprofit papers in place by the 1st of the year.
65th & Bishop or 104th & Lafayette, Chicago, IL-Instant diversity!!!! (You could live next to Mike K!!)
Gary, Indiana?
Zainesville, OH? Start a comedy club.
My $0.02.
Change Your Underwear, Change The World!!!!
New Hampshire is great, Portsmouth very walkable, no sales tax so registering even a brand new car is cheap. No income taxes except on investment income, and when I lived there property taxes were lower than my Masshole friends.
Not to mention highly bloggable up close looks at all of the candidates every four years.
Mont Tremblant, in Quebec.
Stockbridge, MA (Berkshires). Another ultra-liberal haven for well educated city-fleeing New Yorkers and Bostonians (not a bad thing!), and with awesome hiking, walking, skiing, nearby cafes and restaurants, arts scene (Shakespeare & Co, Tanglewood, Jacobs Pillow, The Clark, MassMOCA). Our taxes are 6300 instead of ~18K on a comparable house/lot in Princeton, NJ. Close enough to Boston/NYC/Montreal, but very much in the country. We moved here with our family in the Summer, and are really pleased so far!
MayBee said...
If I were you, I would get a weekend place in downtown Chicago. It's really wonderful.
Hmmm. So you actually live in Chicago. From what I have learnt here, from the good doctor, although Chicago may keep winning Nobel prizes, have some of the most interesting architecture in the country, have internationally recognized medical centers and be a major draw for intellectual and artistic talent from throughout the region, it is just a jungle, a nightmarish liberal failure. Hmmm.
I always liked watching the fishing boats head out to sea from Portsmouth too.
Ann, while I would not live in Seattle today I still love the area. So much beauty--glaciated mountains, salt water [sailing paradise], islands galore--and fun things to do. You would do well to choose a suburb but many enjoy the older neighborhoods like Queen Anne and Capitol Hill [We lived in Normandy Park, a suburb SW of Seattle]. Property is very high in the PNW right now and traffic is a nightmare. If you can live with those caveats you will probably like it.
The rich liberals in Chicago are doing fine. America is already great!
ARM- I no longer live in Chicago, but I would again. It is not a nightmarish liberal failure by any means, but the property taxes and sales tax are very high. The government is pretty corrupt. The head of Chicago Public Schools recently went to jail, and the pension issue is going to be a huge problem. And obviously, parts of the city have terrible murder and crime rates.
But it is the best big city in the US for sure.
Piha, NZ
Not sure that judging national policy by what works best for rich white liberals is totally advisable.
ARM contends idiotically: Unfortunately, liberals create the best places to live. Damn those crafty liberals for luring smart, educated people into their lair in order to tax the bejesus out of them.
I can't think of even one major city that was 'created' by liberals.
Madison, that terrible awful liberal city, such a wonderful place to live even non leftists love it. Worth every dime in taxes.
What's with cocooning in virtually all-White enclaves like Madison and Seattle? Get a little diversity in your life, head South. I moved from MA to NC a decade ago, it renewed my faith in humanity and racial harmony.
Although I don’t live there year around, I have spent a lot of time in Charleston, SC and we have noticed a lot of retirees here in NJ are decamping there in pursuit of lower taxes and warmer weather without the stigma of becoming a Floridian. Charleston is a charming city full of history, natural beauty abounds, it has one of the best food cultures in the country and the people are warm and gracious.
Or, you can move back to good old Delaware.
Stay in Madison. Consider the $17,000 per year as roughly the cost of one year of K-12 schooling; adopt a student.
And that’s nice. It sounds like you (AA) are not hurting to pay taxes. A good position to be in.
There’s a lot of people that have stretched themselves thin, financially, that the loss of a tax loophole appears to be punishing them. There are costs associated with living in the places we live, and the things we do.
And what was the property tax when you bought the house? Compare to CPI inflation.
Seattle is wet and dreary and Chicago is dingy.
Here's a California secret: If you're retired, income taxes are far, far less than you'd expect, and I guarantee your property taxes will be well less than $17k a year unless you insist on living in the Bay Area. Have a look at San Luis Obispo, a quaint college town with tree-lined streets exactly halfway (3.5 hours) between San Francisco and Los Angeles. The weather is astounding, as are the hiking and biking opportunities. Trust me: czech it out.
I guess liberal politicians had the foresight to build the lakes and the streets like they did. I bet the history of Madison started out with a bunch of people setting up a high tax government before the first economic activity even took place!
Or maybe liberals are drawn to nice places and then take over the politics. Vermont was a great place before the first liberal from Connecticut showed up.
Asheville, NC
Greenville, SC
Franklin, TN
New Iberia, LA
New Braunfels, TX
Sante Fe, NM
Aspen, CO (you got plenty money, right?)
Jackson, WY
Boise, ID
Spokane, WA
“Strange you never mentioned family”
No, it’s not strange at all. We have no family here, and the only family we have elsewhere are in places we don’t want to live. Importantly, we have no grandchildren.
But family could be a huge facter. That’s why many seniors stay where they are.
I live in NYC. Just around dusk I like to walk around the reservoir in Central Park. You get the skyline, the autumn colors, and the sunset all at once. I sometimes feel very foolish for having spent my life here, but not during such walks. There are also many fine restaurants that I walk by on my way to the BBQ place.....The taxes--property, sales, income--are all high, but if you want to stand in the subway, that's the price you have to pay.
You want sense of place? I present you with sense of place. And no urban headaches (trust me: I know of which I speak).
Anacortes, WA. Best town in the lower 48 for great walks right out your door. And you can walk on the ferry to the San Juan islands or Victoria BC anytime.
Coeur d'Alene, ID is also good.
Eau Claire. It's the "new Portland" right here in Wisconsin. Third Ward neighborhood.
See https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2017/07/01/eau-claire-cultural-renaissance/409782001/
Living where you want is what money is for. Now having said that, we pay almost $8,000/yr on a two bedroom house. Not sure what we're going to do once my wife retires.
Give Prague a chance
If Missoula is lacking in there not many of these other options will do either.
Livable cities with low cost of living are in Spain.
I have only been to San Luis Obispo once, and it was a long time ago, but I will vouch that it is a great ace and I have never forgotten it.
"Sure, there are lots of places with low taxes, but name one where I'd enjoy living. "
Charlottesville, VA
Golden, CO
Corvallis, Or
Anacortes, Wa
Sell your Madison digs and move to Manhattan or Brooklyn. Rent.
Whitefish, MT. Access to lakes, forests, ski runs, bike paths, culture and first class food. Even has a symphony orchestra! Get sun glasses for the light but take them off to see the Northern Lights!
John said...
"I'm thinking of Nashville to escape Western NY. You should talk to Glenn, maybe he'll rent you a room with the Law Prof courtesy rate."
No, not Nashville or Davidson County (unitary government). Go for Williamson if you can afford the nut as it's northern part is one of the wealthiest counties in the country. Or one of the collar counties around Davidson. Coming from Cook County Illinois, we wanted no part of living in Davidson County (but visit often). Just saw Little Big Town at the Ryman with Gladys Knight as a (BIG) surprise guest.
Scratch Charlottesville. It's been on so many lists of "best place to retire" that now it's a fairly expensive place to live.
Goshen Indiana is a miniature Madison. I too live within walking distance to downtown, bike paths that quickly take you to Amish country, parks, restaurants ... it’s just a great town with a small Mennonite college and a mix of religious vslues. Right now the economy is BOOMING with 20,000 unfilled jobs in the county (we’re the RV Capital of the world. It’s also is home to the largest retirement community in the state, or so I was told. We have a very active music scene with some decent bands making it a regular stop between Chicago and Detroit. Our downtown is a museum piece preserving 1850-1930s America, a wonderful old courthouse sitting in the square at town’s center.
I bought a house here in 1991 for $83,000, fixed it up summer by summer for twenty years (I’m a retired high school English teacher), it now has 6 bedrooms, 4 baths, an elevator leading to a garden level suite which was built for my father-in-law to live in the last year’s of his life. It would fetch maybe $250,000 in today’s market. It’s 106 years old, beautiful brick with sweeping front porch ... and I pay $2000 a year taxes.
Do I sound like a booster? I am.
One of the places I'd consider is the one mockturtle says she left: Seattle.
You couldn't afford to live in Seattle.
Most people can't.
It's San Francisco on steroids.
rwnutjob said...
"Franklin, TN
Near Nashville"
Get a place in an unincorporated area just outside the city limits. You'll save about 50% on your property taxes, which isn't much to begin with if you are paying five figures already.
Going to the community tree lighting ceremony on the square which is really a circle on Friday night. It's Norman Rockwell with kids' choirs singing honest to goodness CHRISTMAS carols and a visit from Santa. If you're offended by the statue of "Chip," the Confederate soldier on the square monument, then it's not for you.
$17,000 in property taxes Is your house worth 3-5 million or something?
Blogger The Drill SGT said...
"Sure, there are lots of places with low taxes, but name one where I'd enjoy living. "
Charlottesville, VA
Golden, CO
Corvallis, Or
Anacortes, Wa
I had 10 acres on Vashon Island for years planning to retire there. It was close enough to Seattle to go out to dinner. There used to be a walkon ferry so you could leave the car on the island and go to dinner in downtown Seattle. It was in the rain belt but the San Juans, where I also looked, are just too far.
I finally sold it and wish I hadn't. I was up there a year ago and went over to the island to see the houses that had been built on my lots but they were hidden by foliage.
The walkon ferry seems not to be there anymore. The car ferry goes to West Seattle but the walkon went straight to Pike Place Market area.
Fredicksburg, TX
Why not St. George or Cedar City, Utah? Close to all the fantastic Utah vista's and both have strong arts scenes and iconic views.
--Vance
A hard problem, but with several known solutions, some final, even wicked.
High density population centers are typically reconciled through color, sex, and generally class diversity schemes.
Low capital, high finance centers will increase overall leverage of productive centers.
Abortion rites (e.g. selective child) will mitigate risk in the first and second, which is why urban areas are overwhelmingly liberal and progressive.
High rent districts require redistributive change, which is why Democrats prefer national solutions (e.g. Obamacare) and coercion (e.g. the Obamacare "born alive" penalty) in order to reduce individual burdens.
Still, I'm surprised that the rent in Madison, in Wisconsin?, is so high.
I had 10 acres on Vashon Island for years planning to retire there.
omg,
you screwed up.
sorry
Aiken, SC.
Wonderful village, walking and horse trails everywhere and great people. A little hot in the summer.
Close to Augusta GA, ATL, Charleston, SC, Charlotte.
A friend of mine ran a custom glass shop for decades on Arapahoe road near the high school. Closed up shop just recently because the property taxes were killing him. He ranted and raved how mom and pop shops are being driven out by high property taxes. It's true. Now, the big corporations are moving in - like Google with a new campus, and all sorts of big hotel chains and their big ugly buildings. People hate it. The lefties hate it, but they created it.
Now all you hear are leftists whining that mom and pop shops are boarding up and leaving. What made Boulder unique and special - driven away by the punitive taxes. They don't make that connection, because leftists vote to hike taxes for any reason/all the time, and refuse to see the damage it does to our unique business culture.
A mom and pop business culture that once thrived, is dying. Thanks, progs! Tax away! We need more google.
You couldn't afford to live in Seattle. Most people can't. It's San Francisco on steroids.
Zillow: The median home value in Seattle is $697,700; the median home value in San Francisco is $1,249,000.
If by steroids you mean "a pill that shrinks your body mass in half" then yes, Seattle is San Francisco on steroids.
All sorts of small businesses are happy to make small incomes. Not allowed when progressives are in charge. Only deep pockets and connected special interests are allowed to Warren the Buffet.
You can rent a sofa for 500$ a week in San Fransisco.
Althouse's neighborhood in Madison is quite nice. I lived many years in a similar one in St Paul, but a few too many slips and falls on the ice told me it was time to GTFO.
None of us are getting any younger....
A community is a package deal. Some things you like and some things you don't.
Not for Republicans. Republicans don't believe in trade-offs. They actually think that if it's not possible to have everything they want, then they can pretend it were so and then it will be!
It's got to offer great walks, beginning at our doorstep, beautiful scenery, and a real sense of place.
I value those things. Do the other commenters?
All sorts of small businesses are happy to make small incomes. Not allowed when progressives are in charge. Only deep pockets and connected special interests are allowed to Warren the Buffet.
That's funny. And how influential and politically powerful do you suppose he is -- given his wish to increase taxes esp. on the wealthy that never happens?
OH well. At least you have a talking point ready - in case a reality in which it actually applied ever took place. That's important. Comebacks and you too's! are good to have whether they're true or not.
Now, the big corporations are moving in - like Google with a new campus, and all sorts of big hotel chains and their big ugly buildings. People hate it. The lefties hate it, but they created it.
God damn those lefties and their embrace of economic growth and progress! How horrible! Let's live in a world without Google! Or even without information, if only that were possible!
One can dream. One can dream.
Just effin' go for it...
Park City
Yellowstone Club
Gozzer Ranch
Palmetto Bluff
Santa Lucia Preserve
Ketchum
Makena
Now all you hear are leftists whining that mom and pop shops are boarding up and leaving. What made Boulder unique and special - driven away by the punitive taxes. They don't make that connection, because leftists vote to hike taxes for any reason/all the time, and refuse to see the damage it does to our unique business culture.
A mom and pop business culture that once thrived, is dying. Thanks, progs! Tax away! We need more google.
Jesus Fuckin' Cripes. You could always tax big businesses instead, and have the federal government provide more to the states rather than have the states do it. But look who's doing big business' bidding when it comes to tax give-aways? The right. As always. Duh. Right-wingers love shifting the burden onto states and localities. Thanks, right-wingers!
In Bozeman, MT, a 700K house will run you around 6K in property taxes a year and there are a million places to walk. On the other hand, it is a small town and there is a low but not non-zero chance you could run into a bear. Also winter sucks but I suspect it sucks in Madison as well.
I missed the part where it was important to force everybody else to live the way I prefer to live.
I'm living in South Salem, OR and like it very much, but there isn't all that much actually happening here, and while I walk a great deal, you might find the hills a bit troppo. There's Minto-Brown Island Park, though -- miles and miles of paths, all lined with blackberries, and a huge dog park, all on the Willamette River. It's about a mile and a half from here.
Still, if you're interested in OR, I think you'd probably be better off in Corvallis. Or Ashland. One's a college town (well, we are too, but OSU > Willamette U), and the other has easily the best Shakespeare Festival on the West Coast. Eugene has the other big college, U of O, but I don't know it at all well.
And: No sales tax.
I'll sell you my modest historic Victorian home in downtown Crested Butte with property taxes of $1600 per year. You can walk out the door to great restaurants, cute shops, lots of fairs and markets and nordic skiing a block away.
Portland, Ore., has many wonderful walks, especially if you live in the northwest neighborhoods near the City Forest and close enough to the Rose Garden and Zoo.
But the taxes are punishing, and the problems caused by bums and drug addicts are at crisis that the Madisonian-like polity appears unable to address.
I havent travelled west of st louis or south of virginia in states (except fla) so cant speak much but in reiterating an upthread comment I did like portsmouth on three/four visits to maine & nh. Not big enough perhaps.
But if you don like hot: Portsmouth is not hot. Ocean. Lots of little lakes in nearby maine if you appreciate freshwater as well.
I always tell family the dream is to be exiled to st helena some day. Hot, perhaps. But there is the (idealized) vision of being removed from the high drama of the (self-)maddening crowds. I presume the fish is always fresh, a little pocket garden for fruit & veg, and i can order a few bags of rice/flour once a year.
If I were in your shoes, I'd get an RV and travel full-time, trading digs with a European, Australian, Kiwi or Brazilian off and on.
Tim Vermont: YES, New Hampshire no Income Taxes either !!! No sales or income tax in NH---can't even believe I'm writing that, but it's true!
Anywhere in Colorado. But don't move here...there are too many people moving here! (She writes, after having moved here recently)
I've lived in Oregon, Texas, Oklahoma, North Dakota, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida.
You can check all those off, they suck.
The last four suck so bad, I am never going back, and I won't even fly over them, in case we have to have an emergency landing. They are all third-world places.
The city that really surprised me, in how much I liked it, was Logan, Utah area. I decided one year to take the exit at Little America, Wyoming, and drive to Bear Lake. After stopping for a bit, I drove on to Logan. Very nice.
It's a college town. But I don't know anything about the cost of living.
The property taxes on my 4 bedroom lakefront home in RI are $3700 a year. What services do you get for $17,000?
Liberals make great cities? Huh. I see signs of liberal policy really hurting Colorado. Denver has a homeless epidemic and I don't see any great ideas for that. Lots of empathy. So far, allowing them to camp anywhere and literally crap in the street is extremely attractive policy. As someone who often takes street people to lunch or for groceries (I never give them money), I know that I appreciate the honesty lately in the "Who am I kidding - it's for weed!" signs asking for money.
What a world.
Liberals make great cities? Huh. I see signs of liberal policy really hurting Colorado. Denver has a homeless epidemic and I don't see any great ideas for that. Lots of empathy. So far, allowing them to camp anywhere and literally crap in the street is extremely attractive policy. As someone who often takes street people to lunch or for groceries (I never give them money), I know that I appreciate the honesty lately in the "Who am I kidding - it's for weed!" signs asking for money.
So what are you saying? Feed them but don't let them use your toilet?
I mean, one kind of leads to the other.
Other countries don't have this problem. But I'm sure it has nothing to do with their high taxes, social welfare system, and unwillingness to bribe politicians to cater more to the "needs" of billionaires over those of average people. Nothing at all.
I'm telling you.....Walla Walla. It's so nice they named it twice!!
Lots of wine, no income tax, a couple of colleges, and a walkable business district.
@Toothless
A city sidewalk is not my toilet. Your mileage may vary.
Judging by what I've read on here over the past dozen years, you wouldn't like Seattle, Althouse. Expensive, crowded, intrusive, horrible traffic. Now Bellingham might be just the ticket.
If money is a minor consideration; Pacific Heights, San Francisco.
But I can't imagine Ann living anywhere other than right where she is. In fact, she should be on Madison's Chamber of Commerce, Historical Society, and the local Humane Society.
I also picture her hugging sidewalks, bike paths, and clean restaurant tables. But I still have no real sense about how Ann interacts with neighbors and strangers. Does she essentially keep to herself, or is she more like the morning mayor?
This is not a superfluous question, since I find myself - as a single person - engaging others a lot more as I get older.
Which actual toilet did you offer them to use? What was made available?
In non-RW-land, solutions require logic and reality.
I’d move to Charleston, SC in a heartbeat. Savannah, GA would be a choice too. If you can afford Kiawah, it’s a slam dunk.
- Krumhorn
mockturtle said...
[We lived in Normandy Park, a suburb SW of Seattle].
My hubby grew up in Normandy Park and I grew up just across the street (1st avenue). He just sold the house he grew up in - mid-century, never been updated or remodeled and got a fantastic all-cash offer in 2 days. Our home (5+ acres) is near Redmond and that once small little farm town is now unrecognizable thanks to Microsoft.
Althouse - you might like the Green Lake/Ravenna area of Seattle - close to the UW and lots of lovely walks. When we visited Madison last year, it reminded me of the houses in Ravenna area. But the prices? At least twice that of Madison.
@Toothless
This is not "RW land". You missed my point(s) entirely. Good day!
I don’t know about other cities, but in Omaha half or more of property taxes go to support the public schools. The Omaha Public School District is an overpriced failure. Suburban districts are better, but not much.
I don’t mind the failure of OPS at education but it could do it less expensively.
“But I can't imagine Ann living anywhere other than right where she is. In fact, she should be on Madison's Chamber of Commerce, Historical Society, and the local Humane Society.”
I don’t think she’s that social, nothing wrong with that.
I'm telling you.....Walla Walla. It's so nice they named it twice!!
Lots of wine, no income tax, a couple of colleges, and a walkable business district.
Before moving to Charlottesville, we lived in Berwyn, PA and loved it. Near Philly and Valley Forge. 4 seasons, plenty of walking areas, trees. Good hospitals and universities and Penn Law school.
Now in Charlottesville (because of daughter/grandchildren) we have almost the same with great walking areas and nearby mountains. 2 great hospitals. UVA and its fine law school. A bit of the old south with more DC people retiring here. Great views if you have the right property/condo.
p.s. Pennsylvania exempts retirement income.
If $ no object nothing beats Mill Valley CA. Ever take the drive into Muir Woods? Craning your head just to observe those homes up high with the sunlight filtered through the tall pines.
Like heaven on earth.
You missed my point(s) entirely. Good day!
My point was just to see the problem resolved - it sounds like something important enough to want to resolve - but I'm sorry if that seemed like a hopelessly political perspective to take.
OH well, good day! Enjoy those streets!
" The Omaha Public School District is an overpriced failure. Suburban districts are better, but not much."
Aren't they all ?
My grandkids go to charter schools which are a big improvement but I wish I could afford to send them to private schools as I did with the kids. Private schools in Orange County have gone astronomical in tuition.
The school my son went to is now $25,000 a year for elementary school. At one time I had three kids there for a fraction of that.
My hubby grew up in Normandy Park and I grew up just across the street (1st avenue). He just sold the house he grew up in - mid-century, never been updated or remodeled and got a fantastic all-cash offer in 2 days. Our home (5+ acres) is near Redmond and that once small little farm town is now unrecognizable thanks to Microsoft.
Althouse - you might like the Green Lake/Ravenna area of Seattle - close to the UW and lots of lovely walks. When we visited Madison last year, it reminded me of the houses in Ravenna area. But the prices? At least twice that of Madison.
Enjoy diving into your pot of money, Scrooge McDuck style! Seriously, congrats. My family owned a house at the corner of 85th and Wallingford for decades and sold it to Blanchet High, next door, when grandma and grandpa died, twenty years ago. They tore it down and built a tennis court. Even sitting at the foot of the hill off the busy I5 exit, what that house would be worth now, yowsa.
Meadhouse~you seem to like where you live, so if you don't mind paying those astronomical taxes, why not just stay put. It's not as if you're going to spend your coin on glamorous international travel or anything. You don't have a large posterity whose education, etc you'd like to contribute to. Why not just spend what you have to live where you like? You could always downsize (from the pics you look like you have a lot of house for two people) but that's a hassle to stay in the same community.
a walkable business district
lol, how big can the business district of Walla Walla be? Three or four blocks?
Best to just enjoy their onions from afar :)
Other countries don't have this problem"
Travel much?
Not that youll scroll down this far but Savannah ha & Charleston a.c. come to mind. Both are beautiful old cities that lean left...not as far left as your used to, but left none the less.
I picked my spot long ago for good bike roads.
What services do you get for $17,000?
Homeless people pooping on the sidewalk!!
The cheapest places to live in the country are depressed rural areas with no opportunity. The most expensive are urban areas with more jobs and cultural variety. Yet we find it sad that young people move from rural areas and weird that old people stay put in the urban areas they moved to when they were younger.
The kids told us to "never sell the house" - our San Francisco house.
They have a point, its not an easy thing these days to score an SF house.
Its a very long term asset.
I don't know how they will split it though.
When they get their inheritance they could buy more SF houses, maybe.
Knoxville or Chattanooga, TN.
I was just in St George. Gorgeous!
a walkable business district
Let me re-phrase my statement, you can live in a house near the business district, and walk everywhere.
Of course, while you are walking everywhere you will encounter several vineyard retail store fronts with wine tasting rooms....and these must not be overlooked!!
Vancouver, BC. Mountains and sea.
That would be New England in general, but it's cold, and lots of people don't like that.
I live in NH and have only lived elsewhere to go to William and Mary for 4 years and briefly in MA as a child. My prejudices for the place are of course tied to my own history and experiences. Scenery? We've got lots. Lakes, mountains, oceans, cities, old buildings, stone walls, museums. Every town has an historical society and most have some obscure museum. Walks? I've got a network in the woods that goes through Forest Society land that hardly anyone goes on. Most of NH has similar. There is actual hiking here. There are a few out the front door of everywhere, but I have to admit, not so many urban walks. North Manchester, West Concord, a few others. Our cities are smallish.
And cold, and snow. It's fun for the first month. It does give one bragging rights, though mine are lost now that two sons have moved to the Arctic Circle (Nome, Tromso). I'd like to talk James over in your physics department to come too. Fascinating guy.
Boise
If you have to ask why....
New Hampshire has no sales tax! Portsmouth & Newcastle NH are extremely charming towns, historical, winding paths, trees, nature etc. It does get a little cold in the Winter, though.
Bill Bryson ~ I remember Althouse as being a fan ~ live(d)(s) in New Hampshire. It sounds nice to me, never having been, but I recently heard rural New England described as a tangle of tiny villages, and out of every five, one is a yuppie summer home mecca totally up its own ass, and the other four are decrepit mill towns full of meth addicts and disability cheats. That sounds....discouraging.
State College, PA. Home of Penn State. Some of the most beautiful countryside in Pennsylvania and that's saying a lot. You could have a similar type of house in the town itself, or you could move just a few miles out and be in rural splendor. They don't call it Happy Valley for nothing.
Ritmo -
Jesus Fuckin' Cripes. You could always tax big businesses instead, and have the federal government provide more to the states rather than have the states do it. But look who's doing big business' bidding when it comes to tax give-aways? The right. As always. Duh. Right-wingers love shifting the burden onto states and localities. Thanks, right-wingers!
As usual - you are clueless.
Locally, the progressives are in charge. 100% progressive. no balance. The mom and pop shops are taxed locally with local property taxes. They are being forced out of business all while the big corporations move in. The big corporations can afford the higher property. It's not hard, and it's not a federal problem - it's a local progressive problem.
It's hilarious to watch leftists whine and blame and throw fits - blaming the "right wing" and not a single rightwinger sits on the city counsel.
Hi Darcy!
> It's (Logan0 a college town. But I don't know anything about the cost of living.
Not bad, and it has free buses. I wouldn't recommend it for walking, it's really car country, or maybe biking, and you need to get up into the nearby mountains to get the full impact. Inversions are common in winter. Beautiful valley though. But I don't think it has enough interesting things and places for Ann and Meade. The prime attractions are probably hunting, fishing, skiing, and hiking. I live here, but look to move now that I am retired.
I remember at some point you said you don't like dry. Therefore, not Albuquerque or Santa Fe. Also, you would not like the bright pure light that drew Ansel Adams, Edward Weston and is unencumbered by all that moisture in the Wisconsin air. Also, very short on surface water and deciduous trees. Still, Santa Fe is scenic everywhere, has a college (St. John's, small but excellent) and the Opera. Central Ave. in Albuquerque (Rt. 66) is nicely commercial in the Nob Hill area which also is near the University of New Mexico. And property taxes are the 2nd lowest in the nation. Of course, there is the gross receipts tax....
I love the comments—the great variety of our nation.
Charlottesville. Forget what happened this summer, 99% of those people from both sides were not local. Charlottesville has been voted the #1 small town many times. Taxes are 1/4-1/2 of what you pay. The University, mountain views, mixed politically, although the City itself is very liberal. History, with Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe having homes here. Two hours to DC, where you can get on the Metro just outside the traffic mess. Many wineries, craft beer locations. Moderate climate. Local bike paths, rural and semi-urban. Many horse farms, some owned by celebrities. An outdoor mall where you can eat outside and watch the street performers, small shops, and local weirdos.
p.s. Pennsylvania exempts retirement income.
Then they tax your estate at 4.5%. Of course, you're dead then.
I like Columbus OH. Fayetteville AR, as Freeman says, is lovely, and vibrant. But it has long summers and it's sprawly, and the airport is a million miles from the town. (What a stupid idea to put it way out in the boonies). I know, I know, you don't fly. But people will visit you.
Damn I had no idea this blog drew so many people from Seattle (lived there from 1989-2004, now in Pierce County but still work in Seattle).
I can't WAIT to get away from this area once I don't have to work - I am only in Seattle to make money - very few jobs once outside the city line.
ARM contends idiotically: Unfortunately, liberals create the best places to live. Damn those crafty liberals for luring smart, educated people into their lair in order to tax the bejesus out of them.
Apparently ARM can't figure out that taxing the rest of the state to benefit Madison has an impact on Madison.
Charlottesville. Forget what happened this summer, 99% of those people from both sides were not local. Charlottesville has been voted the #1 small town many times. Taxes are 1/4-1/2 of what you pay. The University, mountain views, mixed politically, although the City itself is very liberal. History, with Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe having homes here. One hour to Richmond,two hours to DC, where you can get on the Metro just outside the traffic mess and come out on the Mall and walk to the Smithsonian. Charlottesville area has many wineries, craft beer locations. Moderate climate. Local bike paths, rural and semi-urban. Many horse farms, some owned by celebrities. An outdoor mall where you can eat outside and watch the street performers, small shops, and local weirdos. The fall is nice, but not like up north (I lived in Amherst Ma for 7 years). The spring comes early, with dogwoods and red tips showing the first signs. We love it here.
I love my house in Seattle (by Green Lake).
But, I'm almost never there. Less than 5% of the time.
If I could only live one place, it'd be there. OTOH, being there 100% may make me not like being there.
OTOOH, I grew up in Seattle, so it's not like I don't know what's what.
I dunno.
And, FTR Mock lived in a shitty area way outside of the city. I don't want to disparage her particular home(s), but it definitely was not Seattle. And, it especially wasn't one of the nice Seattle houses in a nice Seattle hood.
Just sayin'.
“Apparently ARM can't figure out that taxing the rest of the state to benefit Madison has an impact on Madison.”
The rest of the state of Wisconsin is not taxed to make life more affordable in Madison you dumbass.
If you live in a city and enjoy all of the city services you will pay more than someone who lives in the country, even if your assessed value is the same.
The big corporations can afford the higher property.
Or maybe they don't need to since they're getting a tax rebate to move in.
I’d vote for Nashville or Galway.
Live in Washington and pay no income taxes. Shop in Oregon with no sales tax.
My recommendation is to live just north of Portland in Washington and cross the Columbia River to do your shopping in Portland.
Reading local papers re all the cities mentioned in this thread would be a good way for Meadehouse to get a feel for the local vibe.
But, local radio may be a more connected resources re local vibe. Maybe try to find these for all potential bergs.
Here's one from Seattle w/ daily shows that run from lib to what passes for con (incl a DJT interview w/ Dori), all on the same station:
http://mynorthwest.com/category/kiro-radio/
The rest of the state of Wisconsin is not taxed to make life more affordable in Madison you dumbass.
I didn't say they did it to make life more affordable in Madison. Spending money in Madison which was gathered from the rest of the state makes Madison better off. It creates a larger economy there which draws other services.
I see she combines economic illiteracy with her already demonstrated historic illiteracy, what a delightful combination. A third type and she qualifies for a Womyns Studies Professorship.
burg
Maybe I should rent my place to Meadehouse.
I'm almost never there anyway.
“Spending money in Madison which was gathered from the rest of the state makes Madison better off. It creates a larger economy there which draws other services.”
And people from around the state wouldn’t visit Madison or attend University there if it were not a great city (run by liberals, BTW, you asshole), unlike the town you probably live in, Bumfuck, Kansas.
Could be cheap: if I can cover the taxes and insurance, unlike now, I'd break even, and I'd still appreciate the appreciation.
If you can handle the snow go further north - Wausau or Minocqua
Inga in reply to Rick
The rest of the state of Wisconsin is not taxed to make life more affordable in Madison you dumbass.
A not insignificant portion of what the state of Wisconsin pays in state taxes goes to provide jobs in state government or at the University of Wisconsin- both of which account for a lot of jobs in Madison. And those jobs DO make life more affordable in Madison- for those who have those jobs. Absent the jobs in state government or at the U, the population of Madison would crater.
Rick is not as dumb as Inga is arrogant.
Inga in reply to Rick
The rest of the state of Wisconsin is not taxed to make life more affordable in Madison you dumbass.
A not insignificant portion of what the state of Wisconsin pays in state taxes goes to provide jobs in state government or at the University of Wisconsin- both of which account for a lot of jobs in Madison. And those jobs DO make life more affordable in Madison- for those who have those jobs. Absent the jobs in state government or at the U, the population of Madison would crater.
Rick is not as dumb as Inga is arrogant.
“A not insignificant portion of what the state of Wisconsin pays in state taxes goes to provide jobs in state government or at the University of Wisconsin- both of which account for a lot of jobs in Madison. And those jobs DO make life more affordable in Madison- for those who have those jobs. Absent the jobs in state government or at the U, the population of Madison would crater.”
And should the University and it’s employees not be paid for their services? A good many Wisconsin residents are lucky enough to attend UW Madison. The capital needs to be somewhere obviously, should state employees not get paid?Madison was voted best place to live in The US more than once in recent years and it could stand on its own easily.
Forget Bend, Oregon, we're full up. Well, for Ann we'll make an exception.
My recommendation is to live just north of Portland in Washington and cross the Columbia River to do your shopping in Portland.
We gave some thought to that. Vancouver WA is right there. Shop in Portland and live in WA.
If only the climate wasn't so crappy.
Inga said...
And people from around the state wouldn’t visit Madison or attend University there if it were not a great city (run by liberals, BTW, you asshole), unlike the town you probably live in, Bumfuck, Kansas.
Argument One: that doesn't happen you dumbass!
Argument Two: it's good that that happens you asshole!
You might expect some introspection between these two comments but apparently not with Inga. She got the important part, the juvenile insults. I think we see how her teaching her kids to avoid toxic people means she has plenty of time on her hands.
7 Reasons Why Madison, Wisconsin Is The Best Place To Live In America
“Argument One: that doesn't happen you dumbass!
Argument Two: it's good that that happens you asshole!”
And your insulting demeanor when addressing me results in me treating you in like manner. Don’t expect me to be polite to you.
buwaya wonders: I don't know how they will split it though.
When they get their inheritance they could buy more SF houses, maybe.
h
When my father and his brother inherited my grandparents' house in Boulder, CO, my father bought out my uncle and moved in. He and mother were sick and tired of the rain in the NW and enjoyed being back in CO, where both were born and raised.
Ann makes Madison look very pretty and interesting. She could do worse. The problem is too many choices. America is a wonderful country, compared to the others . . . I'm pondering the same sorts of issues. I live in a nice part of Silicon Valley, literally surrounded by married Google people. I have to ride my bike for 10 minutes to get to a nice commercial walking place, but there are several, and a fabulous natural park for the dogs and walking right outside the door. But not a reasonable place to retire. The most famous walking area nearby is University Ave. in Palo Alto, but it is useless, unless you want Tibetan Crafts or Lululemon tights. No hardware store, no food store, just crap.
But I think Santa Cruz, over the hill, has the best climate in the US, though it is an intellectual backwater and would bore Meade and Althouse.
Inga ignores the point that Rick, and I in support of Rick, have made: Madison is dependent on state taxes. Something that is rather obvious- state taxes support state capitol and state U at Madison- Inga considers a "dubmass" claim.
I now see why I have not previously bothered to respond to Inga's/Unknown's comments.
And your insulting demeanor when addressing me results in me treating you in like manner.
You have your timeline reversed. But the key point is that you should have recognized your second argument contradicts your first. Smart people try to avoid that because it reveals they don't believe their own arguments and are just grasping about for justifications.
Just a tip!
Have you considered Flagstaff Arizona? Or Gunnison, CO or Spokane WA (if you live in Madison you wouldn't mind the winter dreary of Spokane.)
Think globally.
That would be New England in general, but it's cold, and lots of people don't like that.
I lived there for a year when I went back to school after retiring. I loved it but I was alone with all my kids in California.
It is cold, though. 26 below Thanksgiving morning in Hanover.
"Have you considered Flagstaff Arizona? Or Gunnison, CO or Spokane WA (if you live in Madison you wouldn't mind the winter dreary of Spokane.)"
Phil,
Do you know that some folks from Spokane call that city Spok-ompton?
And, isn't the best thing about Spokane the fact that it's very close to Coeur d'Alene? So, why not be there? Presumably the size is the problem. Too small for 100% residency, imho.
"Think globally."
I have some friends that decided to move to Paris for a year.
That was five years ago. There still they're.
Althouse will never move. She hates to travel. How will she check out all of these cities?
Sewanee TN
I agree with Inga.
"It is cold, though. 26 below Thanksgiving morning in Hanover."
26 below? Surely not this year? That's extraordinary.
For most of us it boils down to a balance between money and lifestyle.
I grew up in Chicago and wanted to retire to a condo on LSD overlooking Lake Michigan. Great location and lifestyle. My ex wanted to stay in the suburbs because the cost on LSD was high. We should have invested years ago, because the prices have become astronomical. Unfortunately so have the property taxes. We have since divorced and she remains in the suburbs paying over $15K
a year in property taxes for a relatively modest "move up" house.
I am building a house in Oro Valley AZ with lower taxes all around and reasonable prices. I will have mountain views from front and back, a very green golf course behind me and 100 miles of biking and running paths. Life is good in red states.
Blogger Inga said...
7 Reasons Why Madison, Wisconsin Is The Best Place To Live In America
Take this article, replace Madison, Wisconsin with Boulder, Colorado and the 7 reasons exactly apply to Boulder as well. And like Madison, Boulder house prices are on the moon as well.
Uprooting can be hell, e.g. when it's a necessity. OTOH, it can be great fun, when it's elective. IMHO.
Meadehouse is in a glorious position re uproot-ability. Especially since they're being wise re the economics and they're thinking about sampling (i.e. renting v laying out big dough for an anchoring purchase).
Do it. While you can. [Not tryin' to be ageist, but.....]
Sabinal Canyon, Texas.
Had to have been wind chill at the top of My Washington. I have seen 27 below in New Hampshire, but not before January.
anti-de Sitter space
"Think globally."I have some friends that decided to move to Paris for a year.
That was five years ago. There still they're.
A professor of mine retired to France, and died there. He had taught in France one year on sabbatical. His wife had died 10 years before he retired. The second marriage didn't work. He lived in France nearly 30 years, most of them with a French significant other. France worked out rather well for him.
@Tim: That makes more sense.
Singapore. Great walks, tropical climate, safe, vibrant multicultural community, lots of things to do and its easy to connect with Asia and Australia.
One of their walking trails is set among the tree canopy. They also have a bird park in addition to a premier national garden and arboretum.
If architecture is your thing you can feast on the blend of EAST / WEST, old and new, contemporary and futuristic. The city stays up late, but rises early.
And it has a world class mass transit.
Several universities and a well educated public.
Plus the best or second best airport in the world.
Every cuisine on the planet is represented.
Food is expensive and so are the imported goods.
I hope you like apartment living because only the truly wealthy can afford detached homes.
They have truly great medical and dental care.
Housekeeping staff are available.
So book aflight on SIA or BA and visit the friendliest city in Asia.
I keep looking up flats in Sevilla, Malaga, even Bilbao.
You can get a very sweet deal.
Near-ideal retirement spot IMHO.
I may yet persuade my wife to have a look.
Her Spanish isnt that good though.
Buwaya writes: I keep looking up flats in Sevilla, Malaga, even Bilbao.
You can get a very sweet deal.
Near-ideal retirement spot IMHO.
I may yet persuade my wife to have a look.
Her Spanish isnt that good though.
Is Castilian Spanish spoken in Seville?
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