Althouse: "One has to wonder why the Christ Church leaders in Alexandria decided to move both historic plaques. Is George Washington now to be equated with Robert E. Lee?"

October 29, 2017

"One has to wonder why the Christ Church leaders in Alexandria decided to move both historic plaques. Is George Washington now to be equated with Robert E. Lee?"

"What sort of tortured reasoning led them this perverted decision?" — so reads one of the comments at "Historic Alexandria church decides to remove plaques honoring Washington, Lee" (WaPo).

Two commenters attempt answers:

1. "Since it's en vogue to judge historical figures with contemporary values and norms, perhaps the church just felt it was easier to remove all political figures from their sanctuary. After all, you go to church to worship God, not George Washington."

2. "The two plaques were installed at the same time and are arranged symmetrically about the alt[a]r. Removing one creates an imbalance. They are looking for a suitable other location within the church. Note that it is a church, not a museum or historical monument. As important as Washington was to the United States history and Lee was to Virginia history and confederate mythology, neither were saints of the church or figures of the Bible. Putting them behind the altar puts them on a level with Jesus and Moses."

109 comments:

Chuck said...: I urge all who are interested in this story to look at photos of the interior of Christ Church - Alexandria to see how the two plaques were placed. It was typical of old Episcopalian churches, the same way you'd see plaques honoring past clergy or prominent members. (Recall that this was one of two churches that Washington belonged to, and if I am not mistaken Lee was also a worshiper as well.)

There is very little about the plaques or the placement that signaled "worship" of the two figures.; 10/29/17, 8:49 AM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: Although by historical standards the US does a good job separating state and church, the church inevitably seeks out the coattails of the state just as the politicians are always anxious to hide behind religion.; 10/29/17, 8:50 AM
rcommal said...: "en vogue"? oh please

"de rigueur"! no cease; 10/29/17, 8:57 AM
rhhardin said...: Coleridge on Washington link is praise of high moral character.

Originally from The Morning Post March 25, 1800, presumably London, and copied here.

Scroll up to page 83 in Washington's will for his explanation for not having freed his slaves in his lifetime.; 10/29/17, 8:59 AM
rcommal said...: " 'One has to wonder'"

No, one does not.

" 'why' "

Even less so.; 10/29/17, 9:01 AM
Oso Negro said...: It seems that a large number of African-Americans have serious psychological issues. It is regrettable that their ancestors were enslaved by fellow black Africans, but before slavery, the losers were simply slaughtered. It is regrettable that they were sold to Arab merchants and and then sold to European traders and some of them ended up in the United States. But this was centuries ago. Subsequently, hundreds of thousands of people died in the effort to free them, untold billions have been spent on their comfort, and every institution of government and education discriminates in their favor for the past 50 years. It is not clear to me that anything, will ever be enough. Perhaps they would feel more comfortable back in Africa as was advocated by Marcus Garvey and others. What if simply seeing a white person becomes triggering?; 10/29/17, 9:01 AM
Fernandinande said...: It's run by girls, including an apparently lesbian yoga teacher.; 10/29/17, 9:02 AM
Dude1394 said...: Just another attempt to try and keep the racism bludgeon relevant. They have called everyone who is not black racist and so they are running out of people who give a crap.

They have to find something else, white priviledge is an attempt, so is black lives matter. To hell with them all.; 10/29/17, 9:09 AM
Yancey Ward said...: Jesus Christ was a citizen of the Roman Empire. The Romans had slaves.; 10/29/17, 9:11 AM
Sebastian said...: Turning national history into a daily plebiscite is taking Renan a bit too literally.

But scorching the earth and blanking the slate, for the sake of creating the New Xe, is the essence of prog politics.; 10/29/17, 9:13 AM
Ken B said...: Simpler. He's white and male and a symbol of America. He must go since he is not worthy of us.; 10/29/17, 9:15 AM
Sebastian said...: If a local church takes and installs the plaques, I promise to attend.; 10/29/17, 9:18 AM
Fernandinande said...: Yancey Ward said...
The Romans had slaves.

"When you acquire a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years; in the seventh year he shall go free, without payment. If he came single, he shall leave single; if he had a wife, his wife shall leave with him. If his master gave him a wife, and she has borne him children, the wife and her children shall belong to the master, and he shall leave alone."; 10/29/17, 9:18 AM
Ray said...: "Jesus Christ was a citizen of the Roman Empire. The Romans had slaves."

This church got rid of Him a while ago; 10/29/17, 9:19 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Poor leftists. Such delicate creatures. Offended by history, left wanting free stuff from Hillary and Bernie. Left weeping for Warren, chased around the desk.; 10/29/17, 9:20 AM
Ralph L said...: Washington and Lee used to be on the level of Moses at least in Alexandria, and the schools named for them were almost all black before busing in the 70's and later gentrification.; 10/29/17, 9:20 AM
Phil 314 said...: "Note that it is a church, not a museum or historical monument."

If it's like many very old, historic churches it IS probably more a museum than a church.; 10/29/17, 9:22 AM
Bill, Republic of Texas said...: This simply is not possible. I was assured by my betters that Trump was deranged when he said they'd be coming after Washington next.

This is obviously a false flag operation. Those Christ Church women are racists trying to make blacks look bad.; 10/29/17, 9:24 AM
Diogenes of Sinope said...: Purely political......; 10/29/17, 9:27 AM
rcommal said...: Yuck. (Not yuk.); 10/29/17, 9:28 AM
Ray - SoCal said...: It’s going to get Gillespie as the next Virginia governor...; 10/29/17, 9:29 AM
Anonymous said...: "What sort of tortured reasoning led them this perverted decision?"

There's nothing tortured about the reasoning at the root of the current removal mania. It's perfectly straightforward. The people who think it's about slavery or genocide or whatever the instigators are claiming it's about this week are the ones who are engaging in self-deluding sophistry, and that group includes most Nice White Christians.

The Episcopalians (bless their hearts) go along eagerly and pro-actively with whatever "progressive" crusade is abroad in the land. They tend to be a high-IQ group, so they can come up with self-satisfying rationalizations for why they do the silly things they do.; 10/29/17, 9:30 AM
I'm Full of Soup said...: This is the end result of the multi-culti, ecumenical kumbaya crap.

Christian religions are becoming indistinguishable from each other and so they no longer recruit new members by touting their sect's positives and pointing out the competition's negatives. It is no wonder church attendance and memberships are down.

Christian religions are now mostly just an act sorta like Pro Wrestling.; 10/29/17, 9:31 AM
traditionalguy said...: Anglican was the State church in England, and traditionally they allowed monument/plaques dedicated to beloved members who had been heroes in war much like the DC Marine Corps Memorial erected by their soldiers who knew them so well. Exeter Cathedral in the SW England city where many British military are from has dozens of them, most of whom died serving over seas.

Moses should be so lucky as to be in Washington’s Class.; 10/29/17, 9:31 AM
Ralph L said...: If it's like many very old, historic churches it IS probably more a museum than a church.

If it's an Episcopal church, it's barely Christian.

I'll bet it's 99 44/100ths white, too, and rich. There used to be a parking lot a block away, but otherwise there was nowhere, so they must have drivers or walk.; 10/29/17, 9:32 AM
JML said...: The church prominently advertises the fact that George Washington worshipped there. I'm sure that brings in many tourist who end up leaving a donation. I'm willing to bet they don't stop advertising. And I wonder about many of the graves around the church - will they exhume the slave holders? Tear down the headstones? It is all just non-sense.; 10/29/17, 9:33 AM
Jess said...: Churches receive new leadership, new members, and change things all the time. This is their prerogative, but changes don't ever guarantee positive outcomes, and with churches, changes can lead to the demise of the church.; 10/29/17, 9:33 AM
gilbar said...: "It's run by girls"
and Only girls; no boys allowed, apparently. I'm thinking that their problems with Washington and Lee have much more to do with penises than anything else.; 10/29/17, 9:34 AM
Jason said...: Protestantism. Not even once. #talktoyourkids #episcopalianismisagatewaydrug; 10/29/17, 9:35 AM
rcommal said...: "What if simply seeing a white person becomes triggering?"

Oh, for fuck's sake. What if simply seeing a black person becomes triggering?; 10/29/17, 9:38 AM
Ralph L said...: The church is on Washington Street, which is the main local N-S drag in downtown Alexandria. Rt 1 further west is mostly through traffic and was seedy/public housing.

The city used to brag about being Washington's Hometown.; 10/29/17, 9:42 AM
traditionalguy said...: To compare, Moses lead his forces to a small land the size of Delaware, but GW bagged the 48 States, with a little help from Jackson and Polk along the way. And we have kept them, so far.; 10/29/17, 9:42 AM
Fabi said...: I've sat in his pew before -- many years ago. More like a box than a pew -- seating for six, if I remember correctly.; 10/29/17, 9:46 AM
rcommal said...: Dumbassery rules nowadays.; 10/29/17, 9:47 AM
Bill, Republic of Texas said...: How serious are they. Is this just a cheap feel good ploy.

Did Washington or Lee give the church any money. If so, the church needs to donate that amount plus interest to BLM charity.

Was the church built with slave labor. Them we need to calculate that benefit and add interest. Maybe they can give reparations to the slaves' decendants.; 10/29/17, 9:56 AM
Anonymous said...: Blogger Feranandinande said...
It's run by girls, including an apparently lesbian yoga teacher.

10/29/17, 9:02 AM

-----------------------------------
Thanks for the link.
A real matriarchy.; 10/29/17, 10:00 AM
Dude1394 said...: The Episcopalians are hemorrhaging members. It's been going on for decades now, the average service is less than 100 members.

I expect they only keep up the pretense of a church for the tax write off.; 10/29/17, 10:05 AM
Dude1394 said...: What a bunch of misandrists bigots. Where are the people of color??

"Blogger Feranandinande said...

It's run by girls, including an apparently lesbian yoga teacher.

10/29/17, 9:02 AM"; 10/29/17, 10:08 AM
Brand said...: The church leadership appears uncomfortable with sinners in the sanctuary or upsetting people. They should read their Bibles.; 10/29/17, 10:13 AM
DrBerkeley said...: When will we remove the name "Kennedy" from Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. After all, he abused women.; 10/29/17, 10:18 AM
gilbar said...: "What a bunch of misandrists bigots. Where are the people of color"
I browsed through their website, and there ARE three black males on the lay staff: want to guess their positions? one is Facilities Supervisor, the other two are Facilities Staff.... so, janitors; 10/29/17, 10:19 AM
RBE said...: Perhaps they should take out the word historic from their description of the church.; 10/29/17, 10:21 AM
Ralph L said...: Did Washington or Lee give the church any money.
Aside from tithing, Lee's daughter willed them $10,000 in 1918, a substantial sum.; 10/29/17, 10:30 AM
William said...: Lenin,when he first came to power, tore down many monuments. Many years later most of the statues of Lenin were also torn down. Here's the difference: Lenin destroyed monuments because he did not want the people to have such monuments. The people took down the Lenin statues becaus the people did not want such monuments. You see the subtle difference........I had blood relatives shot at and wounded by members of Lee's army. Why don't I have status in determining whether or not Lee should be forgiven?; 10/29/17, 10:34 AM
cronus titan said...: No surprise this is in Alexandria, which excels at virtue signaling. It is a sanctuary city, stripped Jefferson Davis Highway, i.e. Route 1, of its name, etc. Getting rid of George Washington is the ultimate virtue signaling. Its schools are not very good, there has been an explosion in MS 13 killings (mostly killing each other which is why it does not get very much coverage), but they have their priorities. Virtue signaling is a priority. A competent government, not so much.

James Hodgkinson (the nut who shot up the baseball field of Republicans) stayed in Alexandria for weeks before his shooting spree. A former Mayor of Alexandria said that Hodgkinson hung out in the YMCA watching cable news. THere was nothing unusual about Hodgkinson, according to the former Mayor, because he thought just like everyone else in Alexandria, including barely contained rage everytime Trump's name was mentioned.; 10/29/17, 10:40 AM
William said...: JFK was a coffee, tea, or me kind of guy. He was even guilty of a kind of Munchausen rape by proxy. We have very different sexual mores at the present time. I think it must be a triggering experience to all those poor women who have to go to JFK Airport to catch planes. My heart goes out to them. The name should be changed to Obama Intl Airport to reflect our current, higher moral plane.; 10/29/17, 10:42 AM
chorister said...: The Priest Associate, who has a BA in English, writes the following questionably English sentences:
"As a bi-vocational individual, she is also a corporate business owner and lecturer." (Doesn't that make her a "tri-vocational individual"?)
and
"After two full-blown careers in education and real estate . . ."; 10/29/17, 10:45 AM
The Godfather said...: An historical correction: Jesus was NOT a citizen of the Roman Empire. To be a citizen of the Empire was a big deal, like (say) being a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, and an itinerent preacher, son of a carpenter, would hardly qualify. St. Paul, however, was a Roman citizen, apparently because he came from a wealthy and prominent family. This gave him the privilege of being executed by beheading, rather than crucifixtion.; 10/29/17, 10:55 AM
Paddy O said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 10/29/17, 10:56 AM
Fernandinande said...: They could change the plaque to read

"George Washington Slept Here."; 10/29/17, 10:57 AM
Fritz said...: DrBerkeley said...
When will we remove the name "Kennedy" from Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. After all, he abused women.

Don't forget flattening the Roosevelt Memorial for what he did to the Nesei and the Italians.; 10/29/17, 10:58 AM
The Godfather said...: By the way, I assume that most of the congregants of Christ Church work in the "City Across The River, Which Shall Not Be Named."; 10/29/17, 10:58 AM
Hagar said...: Totalitarians always try to obliterate references to competing faiths.; 10/29/17, 11:04 AM
Oso Negro said...: Blogger rcommal said...
"What if simply seeing a white person becomes triggering?"

Oh, for fuck's sake. What if simply seeing a black person becomes triggering?

Oh, for fuck's sake, college have established "safe spaces" that exclude white people. There is no equivalent safe space for white people that can legally exclude a black person.; 10/29/17, 11:05 AM
Ralph L said...: The country's largest Episcopal Seminary is about 3 miles to the west. I'd have sworn that Washington gave the land for it, but Wiki doesn't say so. Martha's granddaughter built a house next to the Seminary which became the first building of Episcopal High School, where McCain graduated.

I'll bet few of the parishioners are from Virginia.; 10/29/17, 11:39 AM
Tom said...: If we’re going to judge historical figures with contemporary values, we to ban the Catholic Church and most of Protestant Churches. It’s just no okay these racist, torturous, sexist, homophobic, authoritarian (wait, that’s now acceptable!)... Okay, well, it’s not okay these organizations exist. Ban them.; 10/29/17, 11:45 AM
todd galle said...: I don't understand what they hope to accomplish with this lunacy. Is it the SJW hard left shift before the collapse, or a desperate plea for a new congregational mixture. I bet they lose half the attending folks within a month. Who's left to pay the bills? Several new 'woke' parishioners? Doubt it. Our church is on a capital campaign going on, with the initial ask at $1000. I can guarantee you if this stuff was happening, we'd tell the fundraising committee to pound sand.; 10/29/17, 11:51 AM
Kansas Scout said...: I think the two commentator's ideas of they they took the plaques down are correct. And they were the correct thing to do. As a direct descendant of Confederate soldier, a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and a former Minister, politics and secular history are best expressed somewhere else. I staunchly oppose the removal of Statues commemorating the Southern experience in the War by soldiers who believed in that cause. Churches are different. It's just unfortunate that this comes along with all the other outrages of vandalism and destruction of historical monuments; 10/29/17, 11:57 AM
Quaestor said...: After all, you go to church to worship God, not George Washington.

God is a very malleable creation. As always the self-righteous use him to validate themselves and the prejudices they find socially comfortable. Before 1860 God endorsed African bondage. Now he insists on statues of slave-holders be torn down.

The most comical parts of the Bible are the passages that emphasize his immutability.; 10/29/17, 11:59 AM
rcommal said...: Paddy O has left a new comment on the post ""One has to wonder why the Christ Church leaders i...":

Jesus Christ was decidedly not a citizen of the Roman Empire. He was a member of a colonized people. The crucifixion was a statement of his non-importance as a person. Roman citizens had rights that others didn't have.

St. Paul was a Roman citizen.; 10/29/17, 12:01 PM
rcommal said...: Oso Negro:

I am entirely certain that I have been aware of campus bullshit since the nascent part of it (well, at least the last 40-45 years of it). 100% sure of that.; 10/29/17, 12:07 PM
Achilles said...: I was told by many people the slope was not slippery and this would stop at Confederates.

Anyone who sides with these SJW's at any point should feel stupid. Progressives destroy history as a matter of course because they need people to forget how evil and destructive they were in the past.; 10/29/17, 12:09 PM
Quaestor said...: Jesus Christ was decidedly not a citizen of the Roman Empire.

And this is apropos what?; 10/29/17, 12:10 PM
Aggie said...: ""One has to wonder why the Christ Church leaders in Alexandria decided to move both historic plaques. Is George Washington now to be equated with Robert E. Lee?""

Anything commemorating a historical figure became a fair target once the first statue was removed under false pretense. Anything will become a fair target in the future as long as the general population chooses to accept the tirades of extremists without standing up for their own beliefs.

Paraphrasing Judgement at Nuremberg: "We never thought it would come to that" "It came to that the first time you convicted a man you knew to be innocent."; 10/29/17, 12:24 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: So they're not removing the Washington plaque, just moving it.; 10/29/17, 12:26 PM
Oso Negro said...: Blogger rcommal said...
Oso Negro:
I am entirely certain that I have been aware of campus bullshit since the nascent part of it (well, at least the last 40-45 years of it). 100% sure of that.

Oh, my friend, I am certain that campus bullshit goes all the way to the first term of the first university. But it is entertaining, no?; 10/29/17, 12:28 PM
Quaestor said...: So they're not removing the Washington plaque, just moving it.

Baby steps.; 10/29/17, 12:30 PM
Ralph L said...: They might have tried the symmetry argument since there's one on each side, but the pulpit steps negate that.

Has anyone seen a church with the pulpit above the altar?
I visited as a teenager but don't remember that.; 10/29/17, 12:33 PM
rcocean said...: As someone stated, the plaques are there because Jefferson and Washington belonged to that Church, and other plaques honor other former members.

So, the excuse that "we come there to worship God not..." is bullshit. Remove ALL the plaques then.

Just shows that once you let SJW's into your church, you're doomed. Before you know it, you end up like the Church of England, with Clergyman who don't believe in Jesus Christ.; 10/29/17, 12:34 PM
Ralph L said...: I think we had a Boy Scout hike to the historic sites of Old Town, the church being one, Lee's boyhood homes another. I know we had one around the Mall museums that had multiple troops and a quiz.; 10/29/17, 12:38 PM
Ralph L said...: From the Wash Times:
And the two memorials at the church were erected at the same time in 1870, just months after Lee’s death. City residents[!] paid for the memorials by subscription, and the placement of the plaques was momentous enough to merit coverage in newspapers from Massachusetts to San Francisco.

I wonder if they can get their money back.; 10/29/17, 12:54 PM
Etienne said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 10/29/17, 1:11 PM
Achilles said...: Freeman Hunt said...
So they're not removing the Washington plaque, just moving it.

More of your friends protesting Lincoln.

Jefferson.

The slippery slope is more like a cliff.

Is it OK if we only erase a little bit of history?; 10/29/17, 1:50 PM
Achilles said...: Ralph L said...

History is racist. Stop that.; 10/29/17, 1:52 PM
Mark said...: It looks like this place has forgotten what is probably the very first principle of the Gospel -- the forgiveness of sins. It is the whole reason for the church's existence.; 10/29/17, 2:06 PM
Mark said...: This is also a continued slap in the face of the vision of Lincoln -- "With malice toward none, with charity for all . . ."; 10/29/17, 2:09 PM
TWW said...: AJ Lynch said...
"This is the end result of the multi-culti, ecumenical kumbaya crap."

He is, of course, referring to the current Yuli Gurriel flap.; 10/29/17, 2:24 PM
Birkel said...: Freeman Hunt assures me there is a natural stopping point for the Leftist pogroms.

I remain unconvinced.; 10/29/17, 2:52 PM
Birkel said...: CORRECTION:

The natural stopping point is mass graves. Kulaks and wreckers, all.; 10/29/17, 2:54 PM
cubanbob said...: The Trump Administration should have the church declared a national historic site.; 10/29/17, 3:29 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Just remember how much fun it was to call me an idiot. Oh the fun you had!; 10/29/17, 4:43 PM
wholelottasplainin said...: An historical correction: Jesus was NOT a citizen of the Roman Empire. To be a citizen of the Empire was a big deal, like (say) being a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, and an itinerent preacher, son of a carpenter, would hardly qualify.

*******************

Load of crap. If you were a free Roman male, or a free male resident of Italia, you were a full Roman citizen. Shit, if you were a former Roman/Italian male living in Spain or North Africa, you were a Roman citizen. Free women had lesser rights, but they too were citizens.

It wasn't an exclusive club like, say, Harvey Weintein being a member of "the academy".

Get the hot inside poop here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_citizenship; 10/29/17, 5:58 PM
wholelottasplainin said...: Kansas Scout, if you really believe that people of the past should be judged, convicted, condemned and stricken from history based on today's thinking, then I award you "Horse's Ass of the First Order.; 10/29/17, 6:04 PM
Ralph L said...: Jay Elink, did you read your own link?

Before 212, for the most part only inhabitants of Italia held full Roman citizenship. Colonies of Romans established in other provinces, Romans (or their descendants) living in provinces, the inhabitants of various cities throughout the Empire, and a few local nobles (such as kings of client countries) also held full citizenship.

Jesus was not Italian.; 10/29/17, 6:21 PM
Gospace said...: One of the cadet chapels at USMA at West Point put plaques up to honor all the generals that helped contribute to American victory in the Revolution. There's something different about one of them: http://s3.amazonaws.com/mtv-main-assets/files/callouts/3782984955_2ec4ef523a_b.jpg
I'm certain though, that with educated bunch of commenters, most will know exactly who it's referring to. How to honor the past can bring up serious questions. But what Christ Church is doing is dishonoring the past.; 10/29/17, 7:06 PM
mockturtle said...: The commander asked [the Apostle] Paul: "Are you a Roman citizen?"
Paul answered: "Yes".
The commander responds: "I paid a high price for my citizenship".
Paul: "But I was free born". Acts 22:27,28.
Being a 'free born citizen of Rome' was not taken lightly and was atypical.; 10/29/17, 7:22 PM
Ralph L said...: Gospace, that's one way to disrespect him, but they could have just left him out. It isn't like he was a WP grad.; 10/29/17, 7:36 PM
wholelottasplainin said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 10/29/17, 7:38 PM
wholelottasplainin said...: Blogger Jay Elink said...
Ralph L:

Did you even bother to read the initial bogus claim?

Here it is:

Blogger The Godfather said...
An historical correction: Jesus was NOT a citizen of the Roman Empire. To be a citizen of the Empire was a big deal, like (say) being a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, and an itinerent preacher, son of a carpenter, would hardly qualify.

Here's what the link said:

"Before 212, for the most part only inhabitants of Italia held full Roman citizenship. Colonies of Romans established in other provinces, Romans (or their descendants) living in provinces, the inhabitants of various cities throughout the Empire, and a few local nobles (such as kings of client countries) **also** held full citizenship.

How do you think the proportion of Motion Picture Academy members in the American population---roughly a thousand in a nation of 330 million---compares to the proportion of non-citizens to citizens in the Roman Empire was?

Kinda a whole lot SMALLER, doncha think? Kinda refuting the original premise, doncha think??

And, I never said Jesus was a Roman citizen.

Your Remedial Reading course begins in five minutes.; 10/29/17, 7:43 PM
rcocean said...: "Freeman Hunt assures me there is a natural stopping point for the Leftist pogroms."

When they tear down the Washington Monument, she's tell us not to worry, they're only after slave holders.

As long as she's the last one carted off to the Gulag, she'll be happy.; 10/29/17, 7:45 PM
Ralph L said...: Jay, do you understand what "say" means?
It isn't a matter of numbers, but prestige and power. He used the Academy because of Weinstein, who lorded it over the peons.

And piss off.; 10/29/17, 8:02 PM
Christy said...: Have the Society of the Cincinnati weighed in on this yet?; 10/29/17, 8:10 PM
Big Mike said...: They certainly don’t choose Episcopal clergy for their brains, do they?; 10/29/17, 8:58 PM
Bill R said...: It's because these nothings think they are better people than George Washington. No really. They actually think that. And they like nothing better than calling attention to it and promenading down the church aisle to strut and preen.

The Rector is a person named Noelle York-Simmons. I suppose Noelle York-Simmons imagines that other people admire her almost as much as she admires herself and that they consider themselves very lucky that they live in a world with such a moral paragon as
Noelle York-Simmons.

But really, most people just think that Noelle York-Simmons is a pompous bore.; 10/29/17, 9:41 PM
Chuck said...: Christy said...
Have the Society of the Cincinnati weighed in on this yet?

Wow I wonder how many people know what the Society of the Cincinnati is? I do. I had a private tour of their Washington home, Anderson House, that was unforgettable.

One of a handful of the nicest buildings in D.C.

By the way, Robert E. Lee's father, Henry Lee III, was a founding member. And Robert would have been a hereditary member, but I think that all Confederate officers were excluded.; 10/29/17, 9:51 PM
wholelottasplainin said...: Blogger Ralph L said...
Jay, do you understand what "say" means?
It isn't a matter of numbers, but prestige and power. He used the Academy because of Weinstein, who lorded it over the peons.

****************************

Oh, I see.... a horribly bad example is still valid, even if it's a horribly bad example belied by the facts.

The original post didn't mention prestige or power; it only made a claim about how rare Roman citizenship was. It was wrong on the facts.

Fuck you, pal.; 10/29/17, 9:58 PM
Michael McNeil said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 10/29/17, 10:29 PM
Michael McNeil said...: Much like the way that, constitutionally, the fundamental political unit of the modern United States is the state, the fundamental unit of the ancient Roman Empire was the city-state (Latin civitas, plural civitates): self-governing localities typically centered on a principal city in each region together with its more or less sizable hinterland. Until very late (the 3rd century AD), free (non-slave) Roman provincials (other than a privileged few locals and visiting or resident Italians) were expected regard themselves principally as citizens of their home civitas, not Rome nor the overall Roman State. It was their native city-state where they were eligible to vote for the local city council and civic officers (which were oftentimes similar to Roman consuls), debate popular assembly referenda, and perhaps stand for local office themselves.

Civitates were generally autonomous and free to choose their own constitution. While something close to the historic constitution of the city of Rome was prestigious and (somewhat) preferred, many peregrine (culturally non-Roman) communities throughout the Empire organized themselves in diverse ways; some indeed were set up very democratically, drawing criticism from the oligarchical Romans as a result. One might note that while at the top level the Empire (post-Republic) was now a de facto (though typically distant) monarchy, at the local level for centuries the Empire remained vigorously republican.

Jesus was freeborn and a resident of Nazareth in Galilee, but it’s unclear if Nazareth was a significant enough town (pop. around 500 in that era) to be capital of its own civitas. Perhaps the local district’s capital was Tiberias on the “sea” (really lake) of Galilee? Beyond that, Nazareth was home of Jesus’ mother, but his father apparently was regarded as legally being “from” Bethlehem. Perhaps that town — or Jerusalem, 10 miles northwest of Bethlehem — is where Jesus’ citizenship technically lay.; 10/29/17, 10:33 PM
Ralph L said...: Was Jesus in the Popular Front of Judea or the Judean People's Front?

Was there even any concept of citizenship in Judea at that time?

Chuck, R E Lee could have been a member before the War, but I've never heard that. They're all hereditary, like the DAR, SAR, UDC, Colonial Dames, the Mayflower people, or have they changed the rules? Speaking of big deals, does anyone under 50 care about this kind of thing?; 10/29/17, 11:19 PM
wholelottasplainin said...: MIchael MacNeil: stop making sense!

Did I ever claim that Jesus was a Roman citizen? No.

Did I refute, with evidence, the notion that Roman citizenship in the Roman Empire was as rare as the vanishingly small proportion of Motion Picture Academy to the population of the United States?

Yes.

Q EEffin D.

Further deponent sayeth not.; 10/29/17, 11:29 PM
Chuck said...: Chuck, R E Lee could have been a member before the War, but I've never heard that.

I expect that you are right about that.

They're all hereditary, like the DAR, SAR, UDC, Colonial Dames, the Mayflower people, or have they changed the rules?

The hereditary memberships are the core of the membership as far as I know. But I think that other prominent members of the general staffs and admiralty get invited too. Senator John McCain's father and grandfather were members and I doubted their relation to a member of George Washington's staff but in fact they may have had such an ancestor. I just don't know their rules. How the heck could a club built solely on ancestry to Revolutionary War officers keep up an active membership? Anyway, they sure have a swell clubhouse.

Speaking of big deals, does anyone under 50 care about this kind of thing?

I doubt it.; 10/29/17, 11:39 PM
Michael McNeil said...: Certainly the local Roman polity had responsibility for keeping track of its legal natural “citizens” (as well as other residents of the locality who were not technically citizens of the city-state, there could be such), whether those full “citizens” had any effective input into the makeup of the local council (the Sanhedrin, the Bible tells us) or not — the latter would depend on details of the local civitas’ (e.g., in Jerusalem’s) constitution. (I don’t know that, I don’t know that anyone does today.)

Jay Elink: Don’t be so defensive. I attacked nothing that you said.; 10/29/17, 11:42 PM
Michael McNeil said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 10/29/17, 11:51 PM
Michael McNeil said...: Recall that Jesus’ father Joseph near the time of Jesus’ birth was required to return to his “home” city of Bethlehem to participate in a general census of the Roman population — which shows pretty well that Joseph was known to the “citizenship” books of his native civitas.; 10/29/17, 11:53 PM
Gospace said...: Re: Society of the Cincinnati Another hereditary society I could join. But probably won't. Sons of the American Revolution, which would encompass those whose ancestors weren't commissioned officers. Sons of the Confederacy. Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War. The Huguenot Society of America, I'm not able to join the Mayflower Society. Wonder how many others are out there I could but won't join?; 10/30/17, 2:20 AM
Ralph L said...: The Society of the Cincinnati is for male descendants of Continental Army/Navy (and French) commissioned officers.

One of my ancestors was a major in the NC militia cavalry (22 y o in 1781), so I guess I'm out. Under Gen H. Lee, he did lead men in battle on land my siblings inherited, which could be unique.

They had to loosen the rules in the 1850's--it originally was eldest direct male descendants only of those who joined in 1783. Sounds like they were hoping to set up an American aristocracy.; 10/30/17, 3:35 AM
Peter Irons said...: Well, if they are going to take down Washington's plaque because he was a slave owner, they ought also to take down, stone by stone, the church itself since those who built it and attended it certainly also supported slavery at the time Washington lived. So take the church down!

People are obsessed with looking for evidence of racism in the past because there is so little of it to be found in the present. Time to move on.; 10/30/17, 7:06 AM
Ralph L said...: Iron Weights?; 10/30/17, 7:45 AM
Christy said...: My interest is in Cincinnatus and the example he provided to George Washington. Frankly I find the willingness to give up supreme power and return to farming outweighs, in significance to our developing nation, the sin we find abhorrent today.; 10/30/17, 10:50 AM