To be sure, cakes often do convey messages in the writing or graphics on the cake itself. Cake-makers might indeed have a First Amendment right to decline to include such written or graphic messages on a cake. The cake itself, though intended for use in a ceremony, is not itself generally expressive of any message (other than perhaps the fact that 'this cake is intended for use in this ceremony'). Nor can wedding cakes be viewed as inherently expressive, or traditionally protected, simply by raising the level of generality and calling wedding-cake-making 'art.' Much in life is art in the sense that it is aimed at creating beauty, including beauty identifiably linked with some ceremony or some style. Cooking is often said to be an art.At this point there's a footnote to 3 cookbooks with the word "art" in the title, one of which is by Anne Volokh ("The Art of Russian Cuisine").
Even setting the table to present food is an art, with a long historical pedigree. Subway calls its sandwich-makers 'sandwich artists.' But a restaurant may not refuse to cook or prepare a table for certain customers on the ground that would be a speech compulsion....Carpenter and Volokh side with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission against the cakeshop. You can compare their argument to the one in the Cake Artists amicus brief, which we discussed a little while ago here. The Cake Artists refrained from taking a side, but they want what they do to be given the status of "expressive art." They want "the same respect under the First Amendment as artists using any other medium."
The relevant Free Speech Clause question is not whether a merchant customizes a product, but whether the customization communicates protected expression.... No one looks at a wedding cake and reflects, “the baker has blessed this union.”... Phillips may subjectively believe that making the cake would have communicated a message about his clients’ marriage, but there is not a substantial likelihood “that the message would be understood by those who viewed it.”...
Requiring bakers to design a cake using certain words, symbols, or other politically significant design elements, might... be an unconstitutional speech compulsion. Even if the choice to wear certain styles of clothing is not protected by the First Amendment, restrictions on wearing certain words on clothing are unconstitutional, see Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971); the same goes for cakes...
This case is about Phillips’ categorical refusal to provide a particular sort of product to customers based solely on their sexual orientation reflected in the event for which the product was to be provided, in violation of a state public accommodations law. It is not about any refusal on Phillips’ part to speak through his cake creations.
The difference between these 2 briefs isn't about what is art, but what is expression. Carpenter and Volokh say you've got to draw the line somewhere, and they rely a lot on whether there's already a tradition of regarding something as form of expression protected by the First Amendment:
Jackson Pollock paintings are protected because they are special cases of a broad medium — painting — that has long been used to communicate expression.Are paintings protected because we see them as encoding a message that reminds us of something that could have been put in words?
Why do courts protect that, really? Well, there's the tradition argument: Courts protect paintings because they've protected paintings in the past, and anything that's literally a painting — even if it's off the stretchers and the brush never touches the canvas — gets the traditional protection.
But let's look beyond tradition — even though opponents of gay marriage got deeply wedged into tradition-based arguments. Go back to the Carpenter/Volokh quote I put in the post title. I see some substance here: "Cakes do not convey the rich, complex expression that can be conveyed by words, music, images, and the like." We might say to extend the protection beyond what is traditional, courts should look at whether the supposed expression achieves complexity and richness.
The Cake Artists brief has material for putting together a complexity-and-richness argument for the protection of wedding-cake expression. But the complexity-and-richness standard smells of elitism and overeducation. The one case citation I left in, above, is Cohen v. California, where the protected speech was simple and cheap: "Fuck the draft."
And did Pollack really have anything complex or rich to say? I don't think there's a message to be decoded from the dried dribbles. He made an object, and the object is protected because it was made by an artist, and we've been reverential about the artists we consider real artists for a long time.
323 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 323 of 323Kevin, no, I must insist on the fact that refusing to serve a protected class is quite different from refusing to provide a member/members of a protected class a particular TYPE of service.
There is a huge distinction between a baker who doesn't bake cakes for Germans and a baker who won't bake a cake for Neonazis who want to celebrate Hitler's birthday and want a cake for that occasion. There is a meaningful legal distinction between a bakery owned by a person of Palestinian heritage that won't provide services to Jewish people versus the same bakery that refuses a Jewish customer's request for some special cake to celebrate victory in the Six-Day War.
Michelle Dulak Thomson
Utah wasn't allowed admission until its definition of marriage was one man and one woman.
I am of three minds.
As cynical conservative who views these issues as mere episodes in the culture war, I think that, since there is no rule of law, and law is strictly a tool, we should use it as such for conservative purposes, in this case to protect Christian bakers against prog oppression.
As a free speech absolutist, going by the fictions of current law, I think we should make the strongest possible case that cake decorating is expression, and to the extent that it typically involves words, is more expressive than nude dancing, and therefore deserves full protection against speech compelled under any other legal provisions.
As an originalist, who reads the First Amendment as saying, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech," I think a case that does not involve a law made by Congress should be thrown out. Colorado Christian bakers should move, or work to elect better representatives in their state legislature.
But let's look beyond tradition — even though opponents of gay marriage got deeply wedged into tradition-based arguments. Go back to the Carpenter/Volokh quote I put in the post title. I see some substance here: "Cakes do not convey the rich, complex expression that can be conveyed by words, music, images, and the like." We might say to extend the protection beyond what is traditional, courts should look at whether the supposed expression achieves complexity and richness."
Althouse putting my two cents in to this, as I see it there is an intellectual property law consideration as well. A design created by the baker could presumably be copyrighted, so if that is the case, then there is a copyright that hasn't been filed. So in addition of compelled speech and forced violation of religious beliefs, can a creator be compelled to create if he or she refuses to be commissioned for a work for hire? Presumably there is some quantum of originality in the cake's design that is derived from the baker's work. So therefore can the baker as an artist simply refuse to create a work for hire for any reason he or she expresses?
You guys just don't want fags to get married.
Fags can't get married. It's a civil union regardless what they're calling it.
Pinandpuller,
Exactly. Query: What happens with Muslim refugees/asylum seekers? Or just ordinary immigrants from countries where polygamy is common? Certainly they are numerous enough in Canada (and cause various little troubles, like the man putting all his four wives on welfare, along with himself). Why not here also? I can't believe that, say, the Somali immigrant community in Minnesota -- or in Tennessee, for that matter, a thing I heard of only this morning on NPR -- is entirely free of this. Do we not mention it because it isn't those nasty white LDS, or because it genuinely doesn't ever happen here for some reason?
I the past, Eugene Volokh and Dale Carpenter have presented themselves as decent human beings. It's nice that they're willing to drop the mask.
"This case is about Phillips’ categorical refusal to provide a particular sort of product to customers based solely on their sexual orientation reflected in the event for which the product was to be provided,"
No, it is their categorical refusal to have anything to do with an illegitimate ceremony that violates their beliefs.
The only reason to force a wedding photographer or wedding cake maker to take part in a same sex "marriage" ceremony is from thuggish reveling in having the power to force others to participate in something they disagree with. No sane individual would WANT a wedding cake from a cake maker who didn't want to be part of their wedding.
"The relevant Free Speech Clause question is not whether a merchant customizes a product, but whether the customization communicates protected expression"
What "protected expression" does nude dancing engage in? Amazing how strong teh 1st Amendment is when there's an assault on bourgeoisie values, and even more amazing how weak it is when it comes to protecting human decency.
"No one looks at a wedding cake and reflects, “the baker has blessed this union.”"
Of COURSE they do. Otherwise the plaintiffs would have gone to another baker and left Masterpiece Cakeshop alone.
Neither of them are stupid enough to believe what they wrote. It's sad to see them write it anyway
Kevin, no, I must insist on the fact that refusing to serve a protected class is quite different from refusing to provide a member/members of a protected class a particular TYPE of service.
You are refusing a type of service based on their membership in a protected class. It doesn't matter than you'll serve gay people birthday cakes and retirement cakes like everyone else. If you don't serve them wedding cakes like everyone else BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY, then you're discriminating against them by not serving them BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY.
Imagine a bakery with 1,000 kinds of cookies. Can they sell one kind to black people and refuse 999 kinds on the basis of their skin color - and then say, "Well, we do serve black people"?
I don't think so...
Can we ship wedding cakes to the Middle East and solve anything. It would leave the middle east puzzled, at least. That might be a start.
Let the bakers that want to participate submit bids.
"even though opponents of gay marriage got deeply wedged into tradition-based arguments"
Some may have -- but in my opinion the abolition of the standard, "one man and one woman," also struck down the logic against polygamy. Now that logic is literally "because we say so," and that is far weaker than the logic was against SSM.
Moving the toilet from one side of the bathroom to the other. Now THAT'S artistic expression
Moving the toilet to be facing the doorway, removing the door and adding a big spotlight onto the toilet to illuminate the occupant. Now THERE is an artistic statement!
FGM decorations in the icing would probably not be required unless the baker wants to do them.
rhhardin,
I've said for a long time -- decades, now -- that all "marriages," gay and straight, conducted under government auspices are in fact civil unions and should be called such. If you want to get "married-married," go to church, or synagogue, or mosque. This would, btw, include gay marriages in some denominations. A lot of Episcopalians would be happy to help. Not that there actually are a lot of Episcopalians now, but you know what I mean.
There's a surprising number of films with person on toilet, in my vast collection. Romcoms and action flicks, with the occupant usually dead in the latter.
I think it's fair to wonder where the line is drawn.
I don't think that merely wondering that is a complete argument against where these professors want to draw the line. Where do YOU draw the line?
You think it should be drawn further out than "creating cakes [even without words on them]," but doesn't it surely fall short of "putting ingredients on your Subway sandwich?" I suppose if a judge at least agrees with the former part that is sufficient to carry the day in a court.
are in fact civil unions and should be called such.
No, I think what makes it a marriage is that it's man/woman, not that the church sanctions it. It's what the institution is.
Wm. Kerrigan:
"We are men and women. It almost always matters which we are. Men and women are aggressive. Their regard for each other is clouded by grudges, suspicions, fears, needs, desires, and narcississtic postures. There's no scrubbing them out. The best you can hope for is domestication, as in football, rock, humor, happy marriage, and a good prose style. Jokes trade on offensiveness; PC is not a funny dialect. The unconscious is a joker, a sexist and aggressive creature. Our sexuality has always been scandalous."
Without those antagonisms peculiar to men/women it's not marriage.
A civil union of a man and a woman winds up a marriage, and of same sex, not.
If a fire destroyed a gay cake bakery how would an insurance company access the damages in regards to finished products?
That is, calling them all civil unions is an attempt to block an insight.
In weddings, the guests and photographer take pics of the cake. It is sort of symbolic of the wedding. It is never "just a cake". It has colors, art, symbols on it symbolic to the couple and their wedding. It is a symbol, not just flour and sugar. As such it is expressive and also a key element in the wedding that would lead the viewer to believe that the baker supports the wedding.
How come Eugene Volokh is making such a stupid argument?
I am of three minds.
Like Simple Simon looking at three pies.
Religions, as poeticizations of ethics, sanction marriage but only as a result of something that already exists between men and women and does not need religion.
Kevin
No. I wouldn't refuse a wedding cake to a gay guy who was marrying a woman. That's a thing you know.
I've read the brief now, and the argument about cake design vs. wedding photography seems to be that (1) photography has long been recognized as "art," while cake design hasn't; and (2) a wedding photographer has to be at the ceremony (thus "participating"), while the cake designer needn't be -- though Phillips often was.
This is remarkably thin gruel from EV. The vast, overwhelming majority of photographs aren't "art," any more than every cat video on YouTube (or from the Dolphins/Ravens game!) is "cinema." Graffiti is "art" or not depending whether it's in a museum or on your front door, and also on whether it contains any swastikas. As for "participation," there is clearly a distinction between providing a centerpiece and providing a venue, assembling a carefully-designed cake and assembling tables and chairs. Though I imagine Dale Carpenter will get there too, in due course, because the ultimate goal is presumably to compel church participation.
The baker should have taken the order and subcontracted the cake and delivery to another baker. Even if they lost 10 percent on the deal they would have been ahead. Gays will eventually get tired of lawsuit shopping when they get married anyway.
Why aren't public accommodation laws a violation of the Constitutional right to free association?
Suppose a wedding cake festooned all over with pink pussy hats. What? You'd rather not go there?
rhhardin
Things to do in Denver When You're Dead and The Aviator were very popular with Andres Serrano.
I'm not familiar with Dale Carpenter, but from reading Eugene Volokh's columns over the years, he would probably consider it appropriate to fire or punish someone if they received an invitation to a co-workers SSM (fake) marriage ceremony and turned it down. His advocacy on behalf of SSM knows no bounds. If it were a Nazi cake case in the SC, he would be on the other side.
I just got a birthday check from my mom and the only thing that made it valuable was a number and a couple of zeros she lovingly fashioned.
If a fire destroyed a gay cake bakery how would an insurance company access the damages in regards to finished products?
They would most likely take a history of similar cakes and selling prices that the shop has complete sales records of. Most Wedding Cake bakers and decorators keep a portfolio of photographs of their completed works, so the insurance company would also have this information.
If there were not a good record for the burnt bakery, then comparable cakes sold by other bakeries. It doesn't matter who made the burnt up cakes or their sexual orientation. It is a matter of business value. The insurance company most likely would also not give full value unless there were already signed contractual agreements for the Wedding cakes.
Standard products like your generic chocolate cake or cream filled danish would be priced at the going market value.
Marshmallows have their toasted value subtracted.
Jeff,
Because it was decided in the 60s that a lot of businesses were in effect common carriers and had to accommodate all comers. You can associate with whomever you like, but if you throw open the doors of your shop, you can't only let certain people in.
Though I actually do not know how this plays out in practice. If I own, say, a violin shop, or a pocket watch shop, or anything else where the stock is likely to be valuable, do I have to let in all comers? I'm genuinely unsure. There was a case decades ago about a public library in (I think) NJ, which was trying to keep a homeless man off the premises, and the ruling judge reasoned that the fact that the man stank and raved and behaved generally objectionably was all to the good, because that'll larn those demmed elites in their bubble, yes, it will.
You will be made to care......
Why, when homosexuals (not that there's anything wrong with that) and their allies make up a very significant portion of the artistic world, would it be so hard to find a Wedding Cake shop that WOULD make them a gay wedding cake?
It wouldn't. And I guarantee you that the homosexuals who make wedding cakes for a living would (almost) universally insist that their cakes are expression.
This was a set up to make political power points. Because "tolerance" is so yesterday, and "you will be made to care and conform" is all the rage now.
If they only make prison cakes (hacksaw blade icing) for whites, is it a civil rights law violation.
...and (2) a wedding photographer has to be at the ceremony (thus "participating"), while the cake designer needn't be -- though Phillips often was. ...
This reflects the author's fundamental misunderstanding of the process of creating and delivering a wedding cake. My wife makes wedding cakes, not for hire and just for family and friends -- usually brides whom she taught when they were little in her Sunday School class. From this I know that most of the decorating takes place in the maker's shop. Then, the different layers are delivered to the reception hall, where the cake is assembled and the final touches are added. The final assembly may take two hours or more.
Because cakes are perishable, they are delivered shortly before the event. Early arriving guests will see the decorator working. After the cake is finished, the decorator will work with the caterer so someone will know how to cut the cake. (Some parts of the cake may not be edible and there are often hidden supports within the lower layers carrying the weight of the upper layers. The person cutting the cake needs to know where these items are. Also, the cake will have been designed to provide a certain number of servings. The decorator will instruct how to cut the cake to produce the proper number.) Often the discussion about how to cut the cake will not take place until after the event has started because both the decorator and the caterer are busy with last minute details.
All this means that the decorator will almost always be seen by several people, guests, catering staff, and members of the wedding party. The decorator's presence cannot help to be interpreted as an endorsement of the marriage.
Michelle
Does Trump have to apologize to descendants of polygamists and offer reparations?
Gospace,
You need to read the brief. I don't like it, but he came out the other way on Elane Wedding Photography, arguing that wedding photography was expressive and protected by the First Amendment, and that therefore she was entitled to turn down the gig.
Michelle @ 3:44 PM You would not believe how highly feminized some cakes can be. I'm not going to put a link here, because some of these pics are not only NSFW, but frankly stomach churning. Just google. This is not necessarily a hypothetical.
1. If the wedding cake is not an art form, then why not an Drake's coffee cake good enough? (someone else made a similar point)
2. What if the persons wanted a swastzika on their cake? If you rule in favor of the cisgender gays, don't you have to rule in favor of nazis?
3. They should have taken the $$$ and done a shitty job, then offered a refund.
in an amicus brief
amico brief. Ablative case.
Kevin said: You are refusing a type of service based on their membership in a protected class. It doesn't matter than you'll serve gay people birthday cakes and retirement cakes like everyone else. If you don't serve them wedding cakes like everyone else BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY, then you're discriminating against them by not serving them BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY.
You are missing the fact and the point that a WEDDING CAKE is not an ordinary item that is routinely stocked in the bakery store. Unlike a Carrot Cake with Cream Cheese frosting dusted with chopped walnuts, which can be available on a regular basis and is offered IF in inventory...... A WEDDING cake is an item that is made by special order on a one at a time, contractual basis.
There is no such thing as a three tier specially decorated wedding cake that is just sitting in the display case to be bought at anytime. IF the carrot cake is out of inventory, you can request that they have some in stock the next time you show up and they will likely do their best to provide you with the generic cake you want. They are also able to indicate that they aren't making Carrot Cake this month. What you DO with the Carrot cake after you take it out of the door is your business.
But you also can't FORCE the bakery or the tailor or the architect to design and make something CUSTOM for you that is offensive to the maker (like a Hitler cake), against their religious principles (like a cake representing aborted babies or celebrating gay marriage) or really for any reason including the freaking cake or house is going to be something that will damage their professional reputation.
This is the difference. You cannot be forced to enter into a contract against your will.
The cake people fucked up by being honest. They could have just lied and said "Sorry, we are unable to fulfill this contract at this time" Too busy. Unavailable ingredients.
Because it was decided in the 60s that a lot of businesses were in effect common carriers and had to accommodate all comers. You can associate with whomever you like, but if you throw open the doors of your shop, you can't only let certain people in.
But why is that the case? I can see how the Court finds freedom of association implicit in the First Amendment, but I don't see anything remotely like the common carrier or public accommodation doctrines anywhere in there. Shouldn't the Constitution trump other considerations?
"Cakes do not convey the rich, complex expression that can be conveyed by words, music, images, and the like...
... and to the extent that cakes are used in ceremonies, their significance is inextricably tied to their being eaten, not to any message they visually convey,"
Sorry I'm late to the party, but this assertion argues too much and actually defeats the claim of the people who wanted a pro-same-sex marriage message placed on their cake. If the significance of cake is to be eaten, then the same-sex couple has to accept -- and eat -- a plain cake without decoration.
Who did Ariana Huffington's wedding cake? Asking for Larry Craig.
Kevin, no. A particular service is being refused - one for a same-sex wedding. And believe it or not, people with same-sex orientations do sometimes get married to persons of the opposite sex. In some cultures, it's rather a common practice, due to the desire for children.
And I imagine that for other reasons, you have a few persons who are heterosexual contracting legal marriages to same-sex partners. Esp, business partners.
Being gay, i.e, having a same-sex orientation, is not an identity of same-sex marriages. To say that it is so (and I know some courts have), is plainly false.
Is this where South Park got the idea to eat with the wrong orifice?
Cakes do not convey the rich, complex expression that can be conveyed by words, music, images, and the like
Cakes can express bullshit too.
Phillips may subjectively believe that making the cake would have communicated a message
And the one to judge whether it is expression is the individual, not the government. It is not for government to tell people that their expression is not expression, just as it is not for government to tell religious entities that certain mandated conduct does not implicate their religious beliefs.
So far no case has been taken for bachelor party cakes.
Michelle,
I read the brief and I don't think EV really had his heart in it. Thin gruel, as you said.
Maybe he's a pie guy.
Adam Corolla has a story about making a bed for some gay guys when he was a carpenter full time. As the story goes, I think, they didn't sleep sleep together. Yeah but still.
The posting was disappointing, for the reasons you explain, especially coming from Volokh. (Carpenter I can understand more, as this is not the first time his personal convictions have conflicted with his what you may otherwise expect his normative views to be of what the constitution requires.)
Creative expression is or should be creative expression regardless of the medium.
Doesn't Volokh publish at the Washington Post?
Well, it is undeniable that the Post does not convey the rich, complex expression that can be conveyed by words, music, images, and the like, and to the extent that the Post is used, its significance is inextricably tied to it being used to line the floor for dogs to poop on, not to any message it visually conveys.
Thus, it should be entirely permissible for the government to regulate or even ban Volokh from publishing there.
Kevin said...
The ratchet only goes one way, until the machine is broken.
And yet this clear fact is lost on the GOPe.
What would you suggest, to "the GOPe," in this instance? About this particular case? My point was a general one, to the general electorate; don't pass these kinds of civil rights laws in the first place. They aren't all sweetness and light and justice. They are machines that produce lawsuits.
The question rightfully should be not whether a cake is "expression" but rather whether government has the right to compel a person to violate their religious taboos.
Making a Christian participate in a gay wedding violates the Christian's religious taboo against desecrating sacraments (marriage is a sacrament). The definition of 'sin' is quite clear: that making a cake for a sinful activity is every bit as sinful as being the one directly committing the sin. Christians are not supposed to participate in any way with an activity that their denomination defines as sinful.
If the appetites in question were about food instead of about sex, this would be a no-brainer: there is no right to force a Jew to make non-kosher foods, to make a Buddhist vegetarian participate in the slaughter of an animal, or to make a Unitarian Universalist who sincerely believes in "clean foods" to participate in that which involves preservatives or chemicals in the food supply. The problem here is that we basically disapprove of the Christian's beliefs regarding "correct" sexual beliefs, and the real goal is to force the Christian to give up those "wrong" beliefs and accept a given set of beliefs about sex as correct and universal.
It is not clear to me why the gay identity has a right to protection if the Christian identity does not. Either we all have the right to "live who we are" or it is (by definition) not a universal right.
Can someone explain to me the difference between a 'legal principle' and 'whatever weapon is handy to hand'?
Because "long tradition" sure doesn't seem to apply to the definition of a religion.
Photographer vs Baker is the baker probably doesn't have to watch two dudes kiss.
If the wedding has happened by now ... The issue is moot? Or not? Is this battle space for future?
Shorter American Lawyers Who Pretend to Believe in Freedom: Buyers have more rights than Sellers. Which is hat Althouse believes in.
Civil rights laws ensure that everyone can purchase a cake, but do not create a right to force custom expression (i.e. "speech").
What about candlestick makers and lesbian weddings. It's not all bakers.
Why aren't public accommodation laws a violation of the Constitutional right to free association?
The freedoms protected by the 1st Amendment are not unlimited. Shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater is a well-known exception to the freedom of speech, for example. Public accommodations were supposed to be a similarly narrow exception to the right to free association. If you were operating a public accommodation, you could not discriminate. This would prevent someone traveling from another city from having to spend the night in the rain because none of the local hotels served people of that type. This seemed like an appropriate, sensible, and even necessary exception to the right of free association.
Unfortunately, once the courts created this exception, Congress and state and local governments started expanding what was once a fairly narrow category of businesses into something that covers virtually any human endeavor. Even private clubs are considered public accommodations if they have a licence to serve alcohol. This has eviscerated the 1st Amendment's protection of this right.
Jeff: I can see how the Court finds freedom of association implicit in the First Amendment, but I don't see anything remotely like the common carrier or public accommodation doctrines anywhere in there.
That's why people better and wiser than you get to rule on these things, and you don't. Much, much sharper eyesight.
Since you probably can't see these things, even if you squint, you should just stop fussing and exercise quiet gratitude toward the superlatively discerning eyes that, to our great good fortune, have taken on the burden of interpreting our law for us for so many decades now.
So, when is political congruence ("=") rejected as a bigoted ideology in favor of something more uniform and less Pro-Choice?
Jupiter said...
Chuck said...
"In Colorado, (California? New York? Hawaii? I honestly don't know) the Stones cannot refuse to play because you are a homosexual."
Try to follow the argument. The question is, does the constitutionality of that Colorado statute hinge upon the reason the Stones give for refusing? Is it constitutional for the Colorado statute to require the Stones to play, unless they are willing to lie about their reasons? The question may strike you as sophistical, but in fact the law is not about providing cakes to homosexual weddings. It is about preventing people from expressing their views in a business context. Indeed, it is about compelling people to give apparent approval to acts of which they deeply disapprove, either by participating in those acts, or by dissembling their reasons for refusing.
Okay, you are back to the original argument as this case is actually presented, and you are positing (quite reasonably) that the Stones are artists, and that artists cannot and should not be compelled into art and speech.
That is the Masterpiece Cakeshop case, and we'll see how it turns out.
But earlier, I was addressing "artistic" cases in which they hypothetical plaintiffs were not of any protected group. Like, say, Nazis. It doesn't matter if there is art involved at all in the case of Nazis, because no statutes prohibit private discrimination against Nazis. (The First Amendment guarantees free speech rights, free from governmental interference, against Nazis.)
You can associate with whomever you like, but if you throw open the doors of your shop, you can't only let certain people in.
Though I actually do not know how this plays out in practice
If you are traveling on a trip and there are no gas stations or restaurants or motels that will serve you -- which was the real life experience of blacks during Jim Crow -- then the are effectively shut out of society and denied a whole slew of natural liberties.
Of course, these days, there are plenty of places that would serve same-sex couples, so the situation is entirely different such that their desires do NOT override the countervailing freedom of association and liberty to act or not act of the merchant.
Can a Nazi walk into a butcher and demand a certain cut of meat.
"If they only make prison cakes (hacksaw blade icing) for whites, is it a civil rights law violation."
It is the activity being discriminated against, not the customer.
Rights are for people, not for ceremonies - or couples, or groups.
Also, rights go both ways: the right to have something is not necessarily greater than the right to refuse something. The right to do something is not necessarily greater than the right to refrain from doing something you don't want to do. It has been made quite clear by numerous cases where people calling themselves Christians have gone into bakeries demanding cakes that celebrate traditional religious beliefs - only to be informed that their beliefs are 'hateful' and thus they have no right to a cake. If it is hateful to ask a gay baker to violate his beliefs, then why would it not be equally hateful to ask a Christian to violate his beliefs? The answer of course is that the government is defining which beliefs are acceptable - mandatory, even - and which are "hateful", "discriminatory", and thus criminal - exactly what the First Amendment is supposed to protect against.
Jeff said...
"But why is that the case? I can see how the Court finds freedom of association implicit in the First Amendment, but I don't see anything remotely like the common carrier or public accommodation doctrines anywhere in there. Shouldn't the Constitution trump other considerations?"
Because Negroes and Homosexuals. There are people who don't want to associate with them. Therefore, there is no right to free association. Now do you understand?
Shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater is a well-known exception to the freedom of speech, for example
No. No it is not. Neither shouting "fire" nor shouting "wolf" in a crowded theater is beyond the protections of the First Amendment. In fact, if there actually is a fire in the theater, you should shout, "FIRE!" Or if their is a wolf there, you should yell, "WOLF!"
What is a well-known exception to the freedom of speech is unnecessarily creating the public danger of panic in a crowd by, for example, FALSELY saying there is a fire.
This seemed like an appropriate, sensible, and even necessary exception to the right of free association.
The owner of the business responded to Colorado's requirement that he provide wedding cakes to all comers by deciding not to make wedding cakes for anyone. (The state's position was if he made wedding cakes for some, he must make them for all.) He's fighting for the right to resume making wedding cakes without having to make them for same-sex weddings.
Kevin said: You are refusing a type of service based on their membership in a protected class. It doesn't matter than you'll serve gay people birthday cakes and retirement cakes like everyone else. If you don't serve them wedding cakes like everyone else BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY, then you're discriminating against them by not serving them BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY.
This is garbage, absolute garbage.
Refusing them service because they're gay means: no cookies or cupcakes or anything else for you, because you are gay. Refusing to support the gay marriage means I won't make you (or anyone else) a "gay wedding" cake, whether you are gay or not.
If I recall correctly, one of the guys who was refused service had his mother with him. If only Mom complains that the shop owner wouldn't make a gay wedding cake for her, is there a law violation? She's clearly not refused service "because she's gay" since she's not gay.
But if the engaged couple makes the same complaint, shop owner wouldn't make a gay wedding cake for us, now is there a law violation? It is not only the same situation, it is literally the same factual event.
This does not turn on whether the complainant "is gay" or "is straight". It turns on the fact that the complainant wanted a "gay wedding cake". Won't make those for anyone, gay straight, wicken, liberal, whatever.
"Because it was decided in the 60s that a lot of businesses were in effect common carriers and had to accommodate all comers. You can associate with whomever you like, but if you throw open the doors of your shop, you can't only let certain people in."
Gonna be a world of hurt if that starts being applied fairly.
I look forward to lawyers being told they cannot pick and choose clients.
I look forward to the media being told they cannot refuse to run peoples' ads.
This "protected group" nonsense being used to promote a double standard will eventually backfire, when the people using these rules lose control over who gets to determine which groups are "protected" and thus have the right to demand that you accommodate their beliefs at the expense of your own, and accommodate their behavior even if it impairs your own.
What is a well-known exception to the freedom of speech is unnecessarily creating the public danger of panic in a crowd by, for example, FALSELY saying there is a fire.
You know, I was going to add "assuming there is no fire" to my post, but I thought, "Everyone knows you can yell 'Fire! in a crowded theater if there is a fire. Only pedant would insist that I point out the obvious." Thanks for proving me right.
So how does this line of argument apply when the baker paints the design on the cake? Is the baker not then "using a broad medium--painting--that has long been used to communicate expression"?
Examples of hand-painted wedding cakes
DKWalser: This seemed like an appropriate, sensible, and even necessary exception to the right of free association.
Unfortunately, once the courts created this exception, Congress and state and local governments started expanding what was once a fairly narrow category of businesses into something that covers virtually any human endeavor.
And nobody saw that coming. Well, nobody among the nice people who just didn't want to see people left out in the rain or otherwise treated shabbily. The people who were on record as "seeing it coming" at that time were, of course, just using it to cover up their preference for leaving black Americans out in the rain and treating them shabbily. (As is generally the case for any given nice progressive idea. One of history's more common - yet entirely coincidental - occurrences is the congruence between Bad Bigoted People's "cover stories" and the stuff Nice People start noticing 50 years later.)
The court ought to have dealt with Jim Crow under its authority to regulate monopoly markets, not by creating an additional right/entitlement.
Monopoly markets have to take all comers at a fair price.
Angel-Dyne and Jupiter,
OK, so you agree with me. But I'd like to hear a coherent argument from one of the lawyers here who does not agree with us. My understanding is that Jim Crow laws were enforced in the South to keep inns, restaurants, gas stations, etc., from serving blacks. Such laws were clear violations of the 14'th Amendment. So you throw them out and you're done. Most likely, the commercial imperative that the only color businesses really care about is green would mean that blacks would be served like everyone else. But even if that turned out not to be the case (and I'm not aware of any evidence to that effect), should not the Constitution still rule?
The owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop reports that business is off 40% due to this controversy. That raises the question, could his lawyer and the interest group(s) that provided him his lawyer be sued for malpractice for advising him to fight this through the courts (5 years and counting)?
The better legal advice would be to find some clever way to comply that makes the point. For example, if he were asked to write something he found objectionable on his cake, he could simply affix a card to the front with the following disclaimer:
"This is a Masterpiece Cakeshop artistic creation. All rights reserved. The views inscribed are the celebrants' own and do not necessarily represent the views of Masterpiece Cakeshop."
Or put some fine print on the wedding cake order form:
"In the event that requested cake customization is missing or unsatisfactory, the parties agree to liquidated damages equal to the lesser of $1 or the amount of any extra charge for that customization."
And nobody saw that coming. Well, nobody among the nice people who just didn't want to see people left out in the rain or otherwise treated shabbily. ...
I wasn't arguing in favor of the courts' evisceration of the freedom of association by the creation of the public accommodation theory. My father, for one, saw the danger of the exception swallowing the rule. (I'm sure there were many others. As a young kid, I wasn't paying them any attention. I didn't pay Dad much attention, but I remember him expressing his concerns to my Mom.)
One of the first major expansions (if I recall the chronology correctly) was outlawing discrimination in employment. It was argued that, like a hotel room on a rainy night, a job is an essential thing that should not be subject to discrimination. My Dad argued that, once state and local laws mandating such discrimination were removed, only bigots would discriminate in hiring. He believed that the marketplace would quickly punish such bigots. By outlawing discrimination, we perversely made the world safer for bigots.
It seems to me this controversy is settled easily.
1) If a cake maker doesn't want to make a "Gay" cake -- that's fine. No cakes with rainbows or whatever, if the baker objects to rainbow-looking cakes.
2) It's not the bakery's business who is getting married. If someone comes in and wants to order, say, a star-trek themed cake or a cake with flowers on it, it shouldn't matter who is getting married. Cake made, and sent off to whom ever is getting married.
3) Good fences make good neighbours. If the business isn't nosy about who the cake is for, there's no problem. My parents arranged the cake for me all of those decades ago. It was a "straight" marriage, but I lived out-of-state. I never met the baker, the baker never met me. The baker did not need to meet us or know who were were to bake a cake to be served at the wedding. As long as people stay out of other's people's business, there's no drama.
Left Bank: If they really see themselves as artists with deeply held beliefs, that's like telling a Rabbi that they can be legally forced to pray to Allah, so long as they're allowed to add an asterisk next to it. If they are truly creating art, then they need to be treated like we treat other artists; if they aren't, then we need to define what art is.
I'm actually fine with state-recognized marriage of same-sex couples ("gay marriage" or whatever we want to call it.) But, I'm also of the opinion that forcing people to do something against their beliefs should only happen when there are no other reasonable options. There are way, way too many ways to resolve this without trampling someone's rights that I feel like this was an error.
I actually am tempted to say I like the idea of addressing it as a monopoly, not solely a common carrier, but I'm very, very antsy about that excuse being then used by people to actually discriminate (while also thinking: Well... will their business survive if they become known as the Racist Bakery?)
It's complicated, and an issue of competing rights. I'm not sure there is one 100% perfect answer.
Left Bank,
Plaintiffs are acting for no other reason than spite. Masterpiece is standing on ptinciple. Your attitude suggests that ignoring principle and doing what's expediant to make it go away is the smart move. Bullies win with the power of the state behind them. The process is the punishment.
WWWW,
Your points don't apply to this case, in particular #3.
Left Bank and WWWW,
I don't mean to denigrate your latest comments, but they assume reasonableness on all sides. The plaintiffs show none.
This is the difference. You cannot be forced to enter into a contract against your will.
And that is a perfectly good argument.
But don't then try to say, oh and I also don't discriminate. We're not talking teapots here. You can have the right to refuse service to anyone, or you can argue that you're not refusing service. You can't have it both ways.
The defendant is refusing service based on the sexual orientation of the wedding participants. It's not a whim. It's not chance. It's a very specific refusal for a very specific group for a very specific reason. No one connected with the case is arguing anything differently.
What would you suggest, to "the GOPe," in this instance? About this particular case? My point was a general one, to the general electorate; don't pass these kinds of civil rights laws in the first place. They aren't all sweetness and light and justice. They are machines that produce lawsuits.
We are in perfect agreement.
And who in the GOPe is championing our cause? Or are they all nodding in approval when these things are proposed, and hoping the law won't be bent too far as a result?
Plaintiffs are acting for no other reason than spite.
Plaintiffs are also acting on principle. They believe in the blanket principle of non-discrimination moreso than in individual rights.
It might not be a principle you hold, but it is a principle.
Of course, when the gay Jewish couple is forced to make a Happy Birthday Hitler cake, we'll see if they are willing to adhere to the principle they're espousing today, but that's for another time.
3) Good fences make good neighbours. If the business isn't nosy about who the cake is for, there's no problem....
Your overwhelming ignorance of making a wedding cake is showing. A cake decorator interviews the couple and designs a cake based on the couple's unique likes, dislikes, and aspirations that is a unique celebration of the couple's union. Yes, the couple has substantial input on the final design, but a decorator can't simply ignore who the cake is being made for. That's not how its done.
You're not alone in your ignorance. It's shared by many in the legal profession and, apparently, but many wearing judicial robes. If there were a better appreciation of just how much of the cake artist's artistic talent is invested in creating a unique symbol of the couple's wedding, I don't think the Supreme Court would need to address the question. This really is like requiring biographers to write a biography for anyone who can pay the author's fee for such work. While a biography is about someone else's life, the crafting of that story is a message created by its author. We wouldn't compel an author to write a message against the author's will; we shouldn't compel cake artists, either.
When two parties interact, we can have the principle of equality or we can have the principle of freedom.
We can't have both at once. This case is about which one wins in this particular fender bender.
The ratchet has been set.
1. Find inequality.
2. Demand equality.
3. Surrender freedom.
4. Repeat.
The trick is to manufacture enough inequality that you never run out before freedom is exhausted. As the left has shown, it's not that hard to do in a country that fears inequality more than it loves freedom.
Kevin,
I'll just ask you (and anyone else for that matter) to click on the link to Althouse's original post, and then to the embedded link reporting the two sides of this case, and then come back to me and tell me the plaintiffs are pursuing this for reasons other than spite.
Now I think the plaintiffs may be no more than convenient cat's paws for larger interest groups, but that doesn't change their original motivation.
Your overwhelming ignorance of making a wedding cake is showing. A cake decorator interviews the couple and designs a cake based on the couple's unique likes, dislikes, and aspirations that is a unique celebration of the couple's union. Yes, the couple has substantial input on the final design, but a decorator can't simply ignore who the cake is being made for. That's not how its done.
This is ridiculous. Almost no one gets married like this. I had a 3-tiered very nice cake at my wedding.
What sort of bougie overly-precious weddings are you all attending where you need art work on your cake? And why do you think this is how normal people live?
DKWalser: I wasn't arguing in favor of the courts' evisceration of the freedom of association by the creation of the public accommodation theory.
I wasn't suggesting that you were. Just making a snarky general comment about the people who never see the likely consequences regardless of how often they're enumerated by others. (I consider myself to have been in that purblind class on quite a few matters over the course of my lifetime.)
Kevin said...
What would you suggest, to "the GOPe," in this instance? About this particular case? My point was a general one, to the general electorate; don't pass these kinds of civil rights laws in the first place. They aren't all sweetness and light and justice. They are machines that produce lawsuits.
We are in perfect agreement.
And who in the GOPe is championing our cause? Or are they all nodding in approval when these things are proposed, and hoping the law won't be bent too far as a result?
In Colorado, the "anti-discrimination act" passed on a nearly pure party-line vote. Some Democrats joined Republicans in opposing it. Democrat Gov. John Hickenlooper signed it into law.
I don't know all of the Colorado details, but I expect that there was a split between big business in Colorado (siding with Dems) and the unified and ideological Republicans (joined by small businesses).
So in Colorado, almost zero Republican support existed. They have a Republican attorney general there, a lady (Cynthia Coffman) who likes to promote her support for "the LGBTQ community" and who said at a rally that she may be the only Republican AG in the country who attends "pride day" functions.
http://coloradosprings.com/ag-cynthia-coffman-praises-colorado-anti-discrimination-laws-at-lgbt-pride-event/article/1605485
Blogger Josephbleau said...
The baker should have taken the order and subcontracted the cake and delivery to another baker. Even if they lost 10 percent on the deal they would have been ahead. Gays will eventually get tired of lawsuit shopping when they get married anyway.
No, the baker should have taken the order and mixed an emetic in, so that every single guest ended up puking all over themselves.
because that's what you deserve when you try to force someone to do business with you.
If you had simply accurately quoted Holmes, you wouldn't have made a problem for yourself, DKWalser.
Left Bank of the Charles said...
The owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop reports that business is off 40% due to this controversy. That raises the question, could his lawyer and the interest group(s) that provided him his lawyer be sued for malpractice for advising him to fight this through the courts (5 years and counting)?
No. "The attorney judgment rule" would serve as a potent defense to any such action.
Mr. Philips could end his case at any time. He didn't want to. Knowing of his business position, he still has not relented.
"The defendant is refusing service based on the sexual orientation of the wedding participants. It's not a whim."
You keep saying that, but, as has been pointed out, what is being objected to is the nature of the service, not the the nature of the participants.
DKWalser said...
3) Good fences make good neighbours. If the business isn't nosy about who the cake is for, there's no problem....
Your overwhelming ignorance of making a wedding cake is showing. A cake decorator interviews the couple and designs a cake based on the couple's unique likes, dislikes, and aspirations that is a unique celebration of the couple's union. Yes, the couple has substantial input on the final design, but a decorator can't simply ignore who the cake is being made for. That's not how its done.
Don't cake decorators have clerks to do that kind of scut work?
Paco,
Nicely put.
I want The Rolling Stones to sue gay wedding DJ's for not paying them licensing fees.
If a wedding cake is such a generic nothing burger, and you can be married without one, then why is not getting the exact one you want from the exact provider you desire a federal case.
gregq said...
No, the baker should have taken the order and mixed an emetic in, so that every single guest ended up puking all over themselves.
Holy Water?
10/27/17, 6:29 PM
If a straight white guy wants to buy a cake for a gay wedding, can the baker say no? If he can, then he's not discriminating against a gay couple by refusing to sell one to them, because he's treating them the same as anyone else. If he can't, then the act of selling the cake must be more than just selling a cake -- it's the purpose for which the cake is going to be used that makes it illegal to refuse to sell it. So the selling of the cake must be a form of expression.
"Plaintiffs are also acting on principle. They believe in the blanket principle of non-discrimination moreso than in individual rights."
Too bad they can't be honest about what principle they're really fighting for.
But of course if they admitted that they really want to punish people who hold beliefs they find offensive, people would (rightly) despise them.
"We just want to live our lives" now includes the right to live in a world where everyone shares their beliefs and nobody ever offends them by having a different worldview.
That is exactly what they claimed made Christians so evil and nasty - "judging" and looking down on people with different beliefs, wanting to see their beliefs treated as universal, wanting to punish people who reject those beliefs, acting like people who share their beliefs are somehow better than people who reject those beliefs. Because we all have a right to be who we are.
SOMEONE cannot coexist - but it isn't the baker.
Those who think this is not a big deal are mistaken: devout Christians know they will be run out of business, stripped of the right to hold government positions, and fired from their jobs for holding forbidden beliefs. They are responding to this by reading each other stories about the Golden Calf and talking about what they'll do if the pressure to say "you're right; our beliefs are stupid" ratchets up. So the real question is, how far are those of you who are pursuing this willing to go to "make" them ditch their beliefs and embrace yours?
Just for the record...would you want to eat food prepared by someone you have just forced to make food for you against their wishes?
Not me.
WWWW,
Please follow my suggestion above. It was the couple who made it explicit that it would be a gay wedding. The baker pried into nothing.
There is a meaningful legal distinction between a bakery owned by a person of Palestinian heritage that won't provide services to Jewish people versus the same bakery that refuses a Jewish customer's request for some special cake to celebrate victory in the Six-Day War.
10/27/17, 2:58 PM
Newsflash Colin if you go into an Arab Deli on Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn and ask for bagels, you're going to get some crappy Bagels. Not a judgment, just a fact.
Blogger Gahrie said...
Just for the record...would you want to eat food prepared by someone you have just forced to make food for you against their wishes?
Not me.
10/27/17, 8:50 PM
You want a horrible scenario? You want to put another hole in this country?
Have a big huge wedding of gays - or any group, random, even just one of those Reverend Moon Mass weddings - but whether it's some bigoted person or a terrorist or who knows what, movie plot umbrella reason,
Just imagine serving a thousand wedding guests poison cake. Arsenic, in 20 minutes everybody who had a bite with start to die. You could get faster or slower agents depending on which way you thought would kill the most people. There are studies on this. For instance, the bride and groom would take the first bite and if it was cyanide they would start to die Within perhaps 15 seconds. So nobody else would eat the cake. You get the idea.
Paddock? Paddock who?
Paddock who, forsooth! Meanwhile another of these threads to keep from tangling, what is the story in Las Vegas? What the hell happened? Do we know yet?
I am shocked that Volokh is against freedom. I stopped reading his blog when he moved to the Washington Post. I think they seem to have warped his brain.
How about musicians, Eugene? Are *we* "expressive"?
I hope so. I've never had to play a wedding at the barrel of a gun before.
"Cakes do not convey the rich, complex expression that can be conveyed by words, music, images, and the like."
Horse shit.
Pianoman,
In my experience, you take a gig or you don't, and there need be no explanation why. If there must be, you say that you have another one previously scheduled the same day. That might not actually be true, of course.
@MDT: In other words, I have to lie about why I'm turning down the gig.
And if the customer finds out I lied -- then what? Am I going to jail?
SSM Dude: "We want you to play for our same-sex wedding."
Me: "No, I can't, I'm busy that day."
SSM Dude: "No you're not. We used our Google Admin Privilege, and we see that you have nothing on your calendar."
Me: "Well, I'm busy anyway."
SSM Dude: "You lied. We're going to contact the State Commission On Human Rights Stuff, and have you arrested if you don't play our wedding."
Me: " ... "
"Blogger Chuck said...
tim in vermont said...
Can you force a seamstress to sew a flag so that you can burn it? Just curious.
I think you are being silly now.
But I will answer your question.
No. Unless your state has a clear statute addressing that problem.
Did you boys get any sort of teaching on "federalism" in your high school civics classes?"
Did you cover the Supremacy Clause, the "Equal Treatment" clause of the 14th, and the "Incorporation Doctrine"?
"SSM Dude: "No you're not. We used our Google Admin Privilege, and we see that you have nothing on your calendar."
Me: "Well, I'm busy anyway."
the day goes past.
SSM Dude: We had our woke comrades from antifa following you around. You didn't have another gig.
SSM Dude: "You lied. We're going to contact the State Commission On Human Rights Stuff, and have you arrested if you don't play our wedding."
And if anyone thinks the Gaystapo wouldn't do that, you're either stupid, or lying.
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