August 30, 2017

"Which Statues Need to Come Down?... The line between history's heroes and villains is hard to draw. Where would you put it?"

Nicely designed interactive presentation at the NYT.

286 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 286 of 286
Michael said...

buwaya
You are correct about how Mussolini was perceived in the UK. Along with the BUF until it strayed disastrously into anti-semitism and lost the support it had built among the wealthy and working class. Mosley had strong support among the poor and working class and his rhetoric would have suited Bernie Sanders in many respects.

rcocean said...

"I was talking about one other particular idiot, but if you want to self-identify with that "some people," go right ahead."

What a smear merchant.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Uh.. intelligence alert, fellow retrogrades:

Robespierre wasnt an option in 1922. He wasn't alive then.

Bonus points for trying to rewrite history however in a way that best lets you avoid the issue.

You folks are really good at that sort of thing.

Michael said...

TTR
You don't get it, do you? You are not in charge of asking the fucking questions, I am. What is your stance on taxation of individuals and corporations and what effect will those ideas result in the diminution of income equality. You don't have a fucking clue. And, to remind you, you are not in charge of asking questions about other people's economic philosophy when you have none which you can articulate. Because you are drunk and stupid.

buwaya said...

"Robespierre wasnt an option in 1922. He wasn't alive then."

His multitude of successors were alive then.

One not-so well known figure, out of a horde -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9la_Kun

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Let us know why you are so obsessed with your own personal failure that you invent principles you have that are not common to the rest of us.

Such as a conscience, interest in social stability, fairness and a dislike of poverty in America.

Things that you and "the rest of you" evidently hate with a passion!

Joanne Jacobs said...

We'd better stop erecting statues of people: Feet of clay are too common. All public art should feature animals or geometric shapes.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

You don't get it, do you? You are not in charge of asking the fucking questions, I am.

It's a free society and I asked you first, you inelagantly slippery slug!

Quit squirreling around and make your stance known, you professional pussy.

Jesus! We all know Michael K has a nursemaid. But what's your excuse?

furious_a said...

"Traitors"...

...funny how the Union men prosecuting the war -- you know, Lincoln and his generals -- made a,policy decision to abstain from reprisals and Victor's Justice and didn't refer to their opponents as "traitors". Confederate officers were allowed to keep their swords and sidearms. Surrendering enlisted were permitted free passage home. Union an Confederate veterans reunited in fellowship and remembrance at the 50th and 75th anniversaries of Gettysburg (Pres' Wilson and Roosevelt, respectively, presiding). Starting in the early 1930s the War.Department assumed the pension obligations for surviving Confederate veterans and war widows (the last such payment issuing in 1959).

Joseph Johnston and William Sherman, commanding the opposing armies during Atlanta campaign, ended the War firm friends and corresponded until Sherman's death. Johnston travelled to New York to attend his former opponent's funeral and served as a pallbearer.

Seems to me the people with the moral authority to judge rendered their judgment long ago. In their wisdom and common decency they opted for peace and reconciliation and to inter their ghosts with their dead. Let them rest in peace.

The latter-day Wade-Davis 20-20 hindsight wannabes on this board are such fearless Chairborne Rangers.

Michael said...

TTR
LOL. This is the very definition of unhinged. Stunning that you would reveal your sophomoric self regard in such a way. But those excellent qualities do not explain your personal failure. There are plenty of people with your own self love who have done spectacularly and who are not assholes.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Oh, I know what's holding Michael up!

A few weeks ago he says that other people have to wipe his little baby bottom for him.

Obviously he can't be a man and declare where he stands. He's a little boy with a messy diaper.

furious_a said...

Bonus points for trying to rewrite history…

Extra points deducted for judging historical actors using modern frames of reference not available to them in their time.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

There are plenty of people with your own self love who have done spectacularly and who are not assholes.

Oh, do tell us about them!

Are they as incapable as you are of explaining their own politics or ideas?

Are they as slippery and slimy? Like Jello?

Go hide atop one of those Confederate statues scattered about in the moronic land in which you live and get astride the thing as it's toppled.

How about those planters? Do you see yourself as like one of them? Do you admire their "success," or whatever you'd call it? Given how much you seem to think you understand about history, and all.

Quaestor said...

Henry Ford gave Hitler a copy of The Elders of Zion, Hitler had never heard of it.

That's a myth. Hitler's dictated political testament cum autobiography, Mein Kampf, which was compiled shortly after his release from Landsburg Prison in 1924, mentions the Protocols several times. While it is true that Henry Ford sponsored the printing of half a million copies of that tract, they were all in English. Hitler was certainly aware of Henry Ford as an anti-Semite, and he cited Ford by name for praise in the first edition of Mein Kampf, but that familiarity and admiration came from reading German-language compilations from Ford's newspaper, The Dearborn Independent. Ford never met Hitler or traveled to Germany, though he did receive a medal from Hitler presented by Nazi diplomats in 1938.

William is probably thinking of Ford's own anti-Semitic tract, The International Jew, which some prominent Nazis, particularly Baldur von Schirach, claimed as influential on their beliefs.

Michael said...

TTM
Your childish rants never have any meat on them. You are only on the attack. It is too bad. You really should get some help.

Quaestor said...

Robespierre wasnt an option in 1922. He wasn't alive then.

One can always tell when Toothless is getting desperate.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Well, little baby bottom Michael - if you'd stop being so defensive then maybe there wouldn't be any point to my attacking you.

But I like going after mealy mouth shit-talkers who obviously have something to hide.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

"Robespierre wasnt an option in 1922. He wasn't alive then."

One can always tell when Toothless is getting desperate.


Since when is taking historical context into the perspective of a historical comparison "desperate?"

Other than when you retrogrades keep denying the meaning of said history?

Desperate is ignoring that context. Just go and vote for Og, Caveman of the 76th millennium BCE, as long as time travel is no impediment to your silly "Choose which dictator EVAR existed to live under!" game.

Angel-Dyne said...

furious_a: "Traitors"...

...funny how the Union men prosecuting the war -- you know, Lincoln and his generals -- made a,policy decision to abstain from reprisals and Victor's Justice and didn't refer to their opponents as "traitors". Confederate officers were allowed to keep their swords and sidearms. Surrendering enlisted were permitted free passage home. Union an Confederate veterans reunited in fellowship and remembrance at the 50th and 75th anniversaries of Gettysburg (Pres' Wilson and Roosevelt, respectively, presiding). Starting in the early 1930s the War.Department assumed the pension obligations for surviving Confederate veterans and war widows (the last such payment issuing in 1959).

Joseph Johnston and William Sherman, commanding the opposing armies during Atlanta campaign, ended the War firm friends and corresponded until Sherman's death. Johnston travelled to New York to attend his former opponent's funeral and served as a pallbearer.

Seems to me the people with the moral authority to judge rendered their judgment long ago.


The iconoclasts hate those Union men every bit as much as they hate the memorialized Confederates. They're just bloviating about "traitors" and "killing Americans" and "rebelling against the U.S. government" (lol) because the time isn't quite ripe yet for going after the next batch of Dead White Men. One step at a time, comrade, one step at a time.

mockturtle said...

Imagine a Saint-Just with telephones, railroads and gas chambers.

Scary thought. As it was, la guillotine got quite a workout.

buwaya said...

Not so-well-known fact, connecting 1792 with 1917, is that the theme song (or tune, many versions of its lyrics existed) of international socialism, social democracy, or whatever the communists called themselves apres la lettre, was the Marseillaise. The original Internationale was set to the tune of the Marseillaise before it got its own music. It was the song of the Paris Commune of 1871, much as it was the theme of 1792. It was the Bolshevik tune of 1917 until gradually replaced by the Internationale. And so on for hundreds of far-left groups around the world.

There are excellent reasons for this.

mockturtle said...

And imagine Saint-Just with surveillance equipment and access to digital media.

mockturtle said...

Sukie Tawdry maintains: Google "Teddy Roosevelt eugenics" or "race suicide." Many historians believe his racialist views influenced his foreign, immigration and domestic policies.

I don't entirely trust the results of Google searches. I have read probably a dozen biographies of Teddy Roosevelt, from contemporaneous to modern, and have never read that. Not saying I don't believe it but 'many historians' also tried to tell us tht Lincoln was gay.

Quaestor said...

German-language translations of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were circulating in Germany even before the Great War broke out. According to Tischgespräche im Führerhauptquartier aka "Hitler's Table Talk", Hitler claimed to have discussed the Protocols with his fellow soldiers serving in the trenches of Flanders. The source is as questionable as Hitler's memory likely was. In 1920-1921 a large number of White Russian emigres of German heritage flooded into Germany, and it was from contact with men like Alfred Rosenburg that Hitler became aware of the tract.

However, it is important to keep in mind that Germany and Austria had no dependence on Russian Okhrana for anti-Semitic literature. There were literally hundreds of anti-Jew tracts, pamphlets, and periodicals circulating in the Germans lands from before the Reformation. Hitler was certainly not recruited to Jew-hatred by The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. As an Austrian provincial it is likely he learnt the rudiments from his local priest. After moving to Vienna Hitler is known to have collected back issues of an anti-Semitic occult magazine called Ostara, published and edited by an ex-monk called Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels.

Quaestor said...

Since when is taking historical context into the perspective of a historical comparison "desperate?"

Desperate is more kind but less accurate than jejune.

mockturtle said...

Henry Ford gave Hitler a copy of The Elders of Zion, Hitler had never heard of it. Ford was apparently a more advanced anti-Semite than Hitler. That's really going some. The industrial plants that Henry Ford had created were essential for our victory over Hitler in WWII. Should Ford be remembered as the industrialist who enabled our victory or as an anti-Semite? Some Ford Foundation scholar should research this tricky issue.

Great example, William, of just where this idiotic character assassination could end up. Antifa smashing Ford automobiles. Then they'd find something about GM and decide that automobiles are all products of evil racists and tyrannical oil barons and must be destroyed. Except for Subaru, of course.

Quaestor said...

And imagine Saint-Just with surveillance equipment and access to digital media.

Saint-Just was in love with his own paltry eloquence. If alive today he'd be a very popular YouTuber among the kind of people Toothless hangs with. (Assuming TTR has any friends, that is.) He'd certainly give Cenk Uygur a run for his money.

Michael K said...

Another thread poisoned by Ritmo.

I am reading "Grant Moves South" agains after 50 years. After Fort Donelson was taken, Grant offered Buckner, the surrendering general, the contents of his purse if he needed money.

Buckner had helped out Grant in the old army.

When Dr Brinton, his army surgeon, commented on the lack of a surrender ceremony, Grant told him he would not embarrass the Confederates. "They are our brothers."

Twerps who know no history are unaware of such things,

Quaestor said...

And imagine Saint-Just with surveillance equipment and access to digital media.

While Saint-Just would have loved making YouTube vids, it would have been Collot d'Herbois who would have taken demonic delight in electronic surveillance technology.

mockturtle said...

Saint-Just was in love with his own paltry eloquence. If alive today he'd be a very popular YouTuber among the kind of people Toothless hangs with. (Assuming TTR has any friends, that is.) He'd certainly give Cenk Uygur a run for his money.

He'd probably appeal to teenage girls, as well.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Another thread poisoned by Ritmo.

One squeeze of your nursemaid's sweet, sweet milk and I swear the poison will dissolve right away!

Douglas said...

To all those who claim that statutes of Confederate generals reflect an appreciation for their courage, their honor, their sacrifice, their sense of duty, their military brilliance - where are the statutes of Gen. Longstreet? Why are there no statutes of Longstreet, who was Lee's #2 and a brilliant military commander? The answer to this question tells us a lot about what the other statues were intended to mean. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-forgotten-confederate-general-who-would-make-a-better-subject-for-monuments/2016/01/27/f09bad42-c536-11e5-8965-0607e0e265ce_story.html?utm_term=.92dcfb49f43e,http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/23/opinions/where-are-monuments-to-confederate-general-longstreet-opinion-holmes/index.html

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Amazing. Simply amazing.

Lessons scattered all throughout history of what happens when you roast the working class and these elitists in this comments thread obsess about how to keep us from becoming the next revolutionary France. Because Marie Antionette and the hubby made things just soooo sustainable.

The lessons, Dear Dildos, is that you can't contain these things. You just have to prevent them by stopping the slow bleed and squeeze of the working class. And that's something Trump just won't do.

Quaestor said...

William wrote: Ford was apparently a more advanced anti-Semite than Hitler.

Someone with an informed opinion would consider that slanderous. While Henry Ford was certainly an anti-Semite and deserves condemnation in that respect, comparing him to Adolf Hitler in those terms is absurd.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

I want Quaestor to be my friend.

He has this soft, sweet, lovable side that any dear decent soul would be just so happy to have around.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

"Ford was apparently a more advanced anti-Semite than Hitler."

Someone with an informed opinion would consider that slanderous. While Henry Ford was certainly an anti-Semite and deserves condemnation in that respect, comparing him to Adolf Hitler in those terms is absurd.


Ford apparently inspired the young Hitler to take his jew-hatred to new and unprecedented levels.

Michael K said...

Douglas, Longstreet, as I suspect you know, was very controversial as he was really a northerner and was suspected after the war of not being enthusiastic enough about the "Cause." This was after the "Lost Cause" movement got going. It still doesn't say much about the statues which were erected as the veterans died off and family members memorialized them.

The whole statue thing is a leftist ploy which will fade as it is shown to be ineffective in rescuing Democrats' irons in the fire.

Quaestor said...

Ritmo wrote: One squeeze...

Only a diseased mind could produce that sentence. Get help.

Quaestor said...

Ford apparently inspired the young Hitler to take his jew-hatred to new and unprecedented levels.

Ignorance of history has never interrupted Ritmo's blighted thought processes.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Only a diseased mind could produce that sentence. Get help.

Just as soon as you get help for your mammaraphobia.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Michael K doesn't hate his nursemaid. Why should you?

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

In Germany, Ford's antisemitic articles from The Dearborn Independent were issued in four volumes, cumulatively titled The International Jew, the World's Foremost Problem published by Theodor Fritsch, founder of several antisemitic parties and a member of the Reichstag. In a letter written in 1924, Heinrich Himmler described Ford as "one of our most valuable, important, and witty fighters." Ford is the only American mentioned favorably in Mein Kampf, although he is only mentioned twice: Adolf Hitler wrote, "only a single great man, Ford, [who], to [the Jews'] fury, still maintains full independence...[from] the controlling masters of the producers in a nation of one hundred and twenty millions." Speaking in 1931 to a Detroit News reporter, Hitler said he regarded Ford as his "inspiration," explaining his reason for keeping Ford's life-size portrait next to his desk. Steven Watts wrote that Hitler "revered" Ford, proclaiming that "I shall do my best to put his theories into practice in Germany," and modeling the Volkswagen, the people's car, on the Model T.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Queastor, you can't be my friend no more. You're too afraid of milk.

Always a sign of someone who can't be trusted.

Angel-Dyne said...

Douglas: The answer to this question tells us a lot about what the other statues were intended to mean.

Well, Charles Lane's answer to that question tells you what Charles Lane thinks all the other statues were intended to mean, but that's about it.

William said...

@Quaestor: Thanks for your correction. I think my source was the American Experience documentary on PBS, but I might be mistaken.....If you add up all the plus and minuses, I think Ford would come out in the plus column. For all his flaws, his legacy is more benign than such left wing contemporaries as John Reed. There will never be a hagiographic film made about Ford,, nor should there be. Nor should there have been a hagiographic film made about John Reed.......I throw this in appropos of nothing. Mother Jones turned to left wing causes after her children died of yellow fever. After he retired, John D. Rockefeller endowed the Rockefeller Foundation which discovered how to cure or prevent yellow fever, scarlet fever, and the widespread tapeworm infestations in the south. Who is the greater benefactor of mankind: Rockefeller or Mother Jones? Rockefeller doesn't get a statue and is remembered chiefly as Mr. Burns on The Simpsons. Mother Jones gets a magazine, and I bet Meryl Streep would like nothing more than to make a hagiographic movie about her......There's some consolation in being the richest man alive, but industrialists like Ford, Carnegie, and Rockefeller deserve statues and are given the finger by posterity.

mockturtle said...

Ritmo, it was the intellectual elite and the aristocracy who not only sowed the seeds of the French Revolution but embraced it fanatically to it's diabolical conclusion.

Quaestor said...

Ritmo evidently got his education from Wikipedia. There are two errors of fact in that one paragraph. Can you identify them?

William said...

Also, please note that Stalin was a huge fan of Henry Ford. Ford ran his plants and workers in a kind of totalitarian way, but you can only be so totalitarian in America. He was better at making cars than Hitler or Stalin. Quality control is a problem with slave laborers.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Ritmo, it was the intellectual elite and the aristocracy who not only sowed the seeds of the French Revolution but embraced it fanatically to it's diabolical conclusion.

Apparently it's the economic elite that you'll let do it to us here.

As I just heard Hanauer say about FOX News: Rich people convincing middle class people to blame everything on poor people.

Michael K said...

Anyone who tries to engage Ritmo is enabling a psycho troll.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Ritmo evidently got his education from Wikipedia.

For the little episode about Ford and HItler? Sure. I'll try to be more of the elitist that you fancy yourself to be about the major event of their correspondence.

First you insinuate it was no big deal, then you make it out to be the most important historical event evar. Like a yo-yo, you are.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Anyone who tries to engage Ritmo is enabling a psycho troll.

Go suck off your nursemaid, crotchface.

Just begone. Your arrogance precedes you.

Just a totally useless bag of boring entitlement.

mockturtle said...

Anyone who tries to engage Ritmo is enabling a psycho troll.

This is true, Michael K. I forget myself sometimes when it's a topic that holds great interest for me. Ritmo has a brain like the egg in the anti-drug commercials. I'd like to think he has sought or will seek help.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

The only help I need is Michael K's nursemaid.

Why not? It apparently worked wonders for him.

Are you saying his entitlement was deserved? I should have that, too.

Nursemaids for everybody!

mockturtle, don't tell me you hate your tittays, too. Just because they couldn't perform the overwhelmingly honorable act of feeding the young Michael K, doesn't mean you need to feel all grossed out by them.

Quaestor said...

He was better at making cars than Hitler or Stalin. Quality control is a problem with slave laborers.

Hitler is given far too much credit for the Volkswagen, a name which is post-war, BTW.

Hitler made a rough sketch of a car for Ferdinand Porshe while discussing his idea for an automobile that could be affordable for the average German worker, a project that was officially known as the "Strength Through Joy Car". Hitler's sketch stipulated a four-passenger sedan with a rear-mounted air-cooled engine. Porsche ran with it and produced a small number of hand-built prototypes. German were encouraged to buy STJ cars on an installment plan which deduced a few Reichsmarks per month from the paycheck. Porche got as far as producing the engine, but by the time the body tooling was ready the war had already started. The STJ plant was turned over to production of a military version of the VW (same engine and drivetrain, same stamped platform chassis) known as the Kubelwagen. The Germans who paid into the STJ car idea never got their cars. The money went to military purposes exclusively instead.

In fact, even Hitler's sketch was a fraud. His "Strength Through Joy" car design was a rip-off of an existing Czech automobile. After the war Czechoslovakia successfully sued Volkwagen for patent infringements.

Quaestor said...

There are two errors of fact in that one paragraph. Can you identify them?

Apparently, Ritmo can't identify the errors in the source he depends on for his specious ideas.

Quaestor said...

German were encouraged to buy STJ cars on an installment plan which deduced a few Reichsmarks per month from the paycheck.

Deducted. (Goddamned Safari. Betrayed again.)

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Apparently, Ritmo can't identify the errors in the source he depends on for his specious ideas.

If you had any good faith, you'd point them out or explain them.

But no, instead you just quote yourself - as if the conversation was just one you had with your own self, and babble back to the earlier Quaestor.

Well, if everything is a game for you - including your own integrity, then you don't need any response from me to help further that.

Angel-Dyne said...

Quaestor: Ritmo evidently got his education from Wikipedia. There are two errors of fact in that one paragraph. Can you identify them?

No, because I quit reading anything he writes here a long time ago. I'm more than willing to take your word for it though, even if two errors of fact does seem a suspiciously low number for a Ritmo post.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Oh that's precious, Angel-Dyne. Don't drive yourself dizzy jerking yourself off, there.

Michael K said...

It's kind of amusing in a sick sort of way to watch Ritmo try to sound intelligent.

It's a bit like seeing someone get drunk and obnoxious at a party where others are worth talking to.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

It's kind of amusing in a sick sort of way to watch Ritmo try to sound intelligent.

Note how Michael K asserts intelligence as something that people only attempt to try on as if for the sake of their own image.

Quaestor said...

Ford apparently inspired the young Hitler to take his jew-hatred to new and unprecedented levels.

You hardly deserve "good faith", Ritmo. You have NEVER retracted any of your outrageous bilge since I've had the misfortune to encounter your comments. I did my work and got my degrees. Now do yours.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

You hardly deserve "good faith", Ritmo. You have NEVER retracted any of your outrageous bilge since I've had the misfortune to encounter your comments. I did my work and got my degrees. Now do yours.

Well if you don't make a correction then don't expect a retraction. And apparently you didn't intend to, anyway. You just sit back there with your bitchy elitist rant about degrees in Hitler-ology, without anything useful to say about your purportedly superior take on whatever went on with him and Ford. So go on there and feel smug. I'm sure you've been waiting for your smugness and arrogance to actually pay off for a very long time, now. Enjoy your moment. Lord knows you're not in it here for a discussion that allows for anything less than how you can bask in your suspicion that you somehow must be better than and know more than others, even when you have very few occasions on which to prove it.

mockturtle said...

n fact, even Hitler's sketch was a fraud. His "Strength Through Joy" car design was a rip-off of an existing Czech automobile. After the war Czechoslovakia successfully sued Volkwagen for patent infringements.

Interesting, Quaestor. I'd never heard that. The nation of Czechoslovakia sued VW like a class-action kind of suit? Did the actual designer/patent holder win any compensation?

Quaestor said...

I'll give the pathetic Ritmo one of the two errors in that Wikipedia dreck he cites.

Henry Ford is mentioned in only one sentence in the 1925 edition of Mein Kampf, not twice. He is absent altogether in subsequent editions. If Ford was such an "inspiration" why edit him out of your magnum opus?

The Toothless Revolutionary said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jon Ericson said...

Pedro's a winner.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

The Mein Kampf connection was only one. The rest of the passage cites other evidence, some taken from the Stephen Watts work.

Quaestor said...

The nation of Czechoslovakia sued VW like a class-action kind of suit? Did the actual designer/patent holder win any compensation?

Hitler copied the general layout of the Tatra Type 97 sedan. Later Porshe directly copied a number of features — valve train and suspension among them — from the 97. After the war, Tatra was nationalized by the ruling Czech Communist Party. It was Tatra that sued Volkswagen and Ferdinand Porsche, but since Tatra was government-owned at the time the distinction is somewhat moot. Tatra did receive monetary compensation, basically deferred licensing fees plus interest. Hitler wasn't available to bring to court.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

It doesn't say how many sentences mentioned him, just that he was mentioned twice.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

It's possible to mention something twice in one sentence. Watch this: The fox bit himself.

Two mentions of the fox.

mockturtle said...

ref - "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie" - the book and movie are both excellent.

On my favorites list. The dialogue in the film is right out of the book. My favorite line was, "She thinks to intimidate me by the use of quarter-hours".

Quaestor said...

Watch this: The fox bit himself.

More despair.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

More despair.

You really do like to double-down on stupid, don't you? You can't fathom the fact that you went crazy assuming "mentioned" meant "mentioned once per sentence."

Keep up the arrogance and condescension. It's really your party's only consistent characteristic.

SukieTawdry said...

All you can do, mockturtle, is follow search results to their sources and judge them for yourself.

There is a rather well-known, oft-quoted letter TR wrote to Charles Davenport, one of the leaders of the eugenics movement, when he was an editor of The Outlook in which he states:

Any group of farmers who permitted their best stock not to breed, and let all the increase come from the worst stock, would be treated as fit inmates for an asylum. Yet we fail to understand that such conduct is rational compared to the conduct of a nation which permits unlimited breeding from the worst stock, physically and morally, while it encourages or connives at the cold selfishness or the twisted sentimentality as a result of which the men and women who ought to marry, and if married have large families, remain celebates or have no children or only one or two. Some day we will realize that the prime duty, the inescapable duty of the good citizen of the right type is to leave his or her blood behind him in the world! and that we have no business to permit the perpetuation of citizens of the wrong type.

When The Passing of the Great Race, written by a eugenicist believer in "Nordic superiority," was published, Scribner's included a recommendation by Roosevelt:

The book is a capital book; in purpose, in vision, in grasp of the facts our people most need to realize. It shows an extraordinary range of reading and a wide scholarship. It shows a habit of singular serious thought on the subject of most commanding importance. It shows a fine fearlessness in assailing the popular and mischievous sentimentalities and attractive and corroding falsehoods which few men dare assail. It is the work of an American scholar and gentleman; and all Americans should be sincerely grateful to you for writing it.

In a speech to the National Congress of Mothers (forerunner to the PTA), a strictly white organization, TR admonished the group that the primary duty of the woman is to be the helpmate, the housewife, and mother. Women also had a duty to raise more than two children because if the average family in which there are children contained but two children the nation as a whole would decrease in population so rapidly that in two or three generations it would very deservedly be on the point of extinction and a race that practised such doctrine--that is, a race that practised race suicide--would thereby conclusively show that it was unfit to exist, and that it had better give place to people who had not forgotten the primary laws of their being.

I've never read a Roosevelt biography, but I can recall discussions of his support for the eugenics movement long before there ever was an Internet or Google. It was hardly an unusual position among educated (white) people in his day.

mockturtle said...

Thank you for providing the reference, Sukie. As you say, it was not an unusual view at that time and TR was very interested in science of all kinds. This in no way reduces my admiration for him. :-)

chuck myguts said...

I would say the name New York needs to be changed since they were named after

"The Duke of York was the main shareholder in and the director of the Company of Royal Adventurers Trading in Africa; established at the time of the restoration of the English monarchy in 1660. The shareholders in this Company were a combination of the Stuart Royal family along with a number of wealthy London merchants. The Company established London’s monopoly of the English slave trade. It created slave ports on the West coast of Africa where British-produced goods were exchanged for Africans who were then transported as slaves to colonies in the Caribbean and the Americas.

In 1664, the Duke of York, as Admiral of the Navy, annexed the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam (it was then renamed New York in his honour)."

Jim McNeill in Alan J Singer, Duke of York (James II), Quaker History ~ New York, Quaker History ~ Pennsylvania, Slavery in New Jersey, Slavery in New York, Slavery in Pennsylvania, William Penn (1644-1718)

Unknown said...

All of them. This country no longer can appreciate its history because of the democrat party. They will only allow their history so all history must be removed. I mean the mere fact that Lincoln and MLK are men warrants their removal.

Unknown said...

Again all statues and monuments should come down. As the antifa-democrat party in forms us, the entire country is evil, stolen from native Americans and everything built on the backs of slaves. It is all bullshit but seemingly the only opinions that matter anymore.

All monuments should come down, let's go full stupid, instead of just antifa democrat stupid.

Angel-Dyne said...

Sukie Tawdry: It was hardly an unusual position among educated (white) people in his day.

What's funny is that probably the only people these days for whom that is scandalous, and prima facie wrong and evil (instead of the conventional wisdom that it was), are white people - and probably the more "educated", the more unusual it is and the more scandalized they are.

But then and now, it reflects the default attitude of most human beings toward the subject of family and tribe. That's what's so funny about "educated white people" who plume themselves on their "open-mindedness" vis à vis the (white) rubes - for being so cosmopolitan and "multicultural" and well-traveled, they sure don't seem to pay much attention to what all those other humans out there actually think about things.

Caligula said...


Which statues? All of them! And then we'll come after the living.

The Ballad of Jenny the Pirate, from The Threepenny Opera (By Bertolt Brecht and Kurt Weill):

"a hundred men will land in the bright noonday sun,
Each treading where the shadows cloak him.
They'll look inside each doorway and seize anyone they see,
And throw him in irons and present him to me,
And say: Give us the word, and we'll croak him.
And say: Give us the word, and we'll croak him.
In that noonday heat there'll be a hush 'round the harbor,
As they ask which I want to die.
And then they'll hear me quietly answer: the lot!
And as the first head rolls I'll say: Hop-La!"

Rusty said...

"Which Statues Need to Come Down?..."

None of them. Let history speak for itself.


"I asked you a very simple question: What economic or tax policies you favor."

You wouldn't understand the answer if you got one.

William Chadwick said...

"Conservative Republicans are well known for believing things that are the opposite of true."

Talk about projection and denial!

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

You wouldn't understand the answer if you got one.

So answer it. No way to tell if you don't do that.

Instead, you dispense with the pansiest of dodges since the junior girls league tried playing dodgeball with a wifflewall ball.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Talk about projection and denial!

Yes, let's talk about that.

For how long have you been projecting and in denial?

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