Said French President Emmanuel Macron, quoted in
a NYT article about a Holocaust remembrance event, which took place at the Vélodrome d’Hiver, where 75 years ago, "France... organized" the roundup of 13,000 Jews, by the French, and "not a single German." The quotes are Macron's.
Some 77,000 French Jews died in Nazi concentration camps or extermination camps before the end of World War II, the vast majority of them at Auschwitz-Birkenau in occupied Poland.
For decades, many French have held on to the idea that their ancestors had been either victims or resisters of Nazis, or of the collaborationist regime that was set up in Vichy, France....
In April, Marine Le Pen, the far-right National Front leader whom Mr. Macron defeated in a May runoff election, declared that “France was not responsible for the Vel d’Hiv”...
Le Pen's explanation was the the Vichy government didn't count as "France."
Mr. Macron condemned that argument. “Admittedly Vichy was not all of the French,” he said, “but it was the government and the administration of France.”
Mr. Macron’s comments came during a period of resurgent anti-Semitism in France, fueled by right-wing nationalism and by fundamentalist Islam....
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109 comments:
Next, he's gonna tell us that a former socialist president collaborated willingly with the national socialists. Unpossible!
Anyway, good on Macron to inch a little closer to the truth.
Two friends of mine, both neurosurgeons, sent the war in France after their parents got out of Poland where the older was born on September 1, 1939. It's always amazed me that a Jewish kid born that day survived the war,
"The Flagellants were religious zealots of the Middle Ages in Europe who demonstrated their religious fervor and sought atonement for their sins by vigorously whipping themselves in public displays of penance."
Good for Macron.
As far as I know, nobody in the far right in France is throwing their elderly Jewish neighbors off balconies.
https://www.thejc.com/news/world/macron-speaks-out-on-murder-of-french-jewish-woman-1.441556
Angry Jew hating Lesbians hardest hit.
Like father, like daughter. (Le Pen.)
And let's absolutely not forget how cozy Donald Trump got, with Marine Le Pen.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/04/21/trump-is-now-supporting-far-right-french-candidate-marine-le-pen-for-all-intents-and-purposes/
I'd hold a grudge, if I were in Macron's position.
Atrocity/sacrifice/etc remembranecs are always serving somebody else's current interests.
You're asked to think that some current thing deserves the same attitude as some other thing.
For all intents and purposes is hackneyed, a cliche. It means somebody doesn't know how to write.
Macron is just acknowledging that France is largely populated by cheese-eating surrender monkeys. Nothing more.
7/11 never forget was my favorite, with a pic of the store.
The president expressed some soft support for presidential candidate Marine Le Pen, but did not offer any sort of endorsement, chuck. WaPo? Seriously? WaPo is 99% laugh at hack.
Any support for her had more to do with flipping the establishment the bird than anything to do with antisemitism. Please - antisemitism in the US exists almost exclusively on the LEFT.
French romcoms are okay, much better than the American dregs that I'm getting so often now.
The trick is always select French language with English subtitles, not the dubbed English option.
Radio Japan is big on antisemitism for some reason. They love Palestinians.
I don't see the reason for it, other than the fickleness of youth. They like global warming too.
rhhardin said...
"For all intents and purposes is hackneyed, a cliche. It means somebody doesn't know how to write."
It also usually precedes a statement the author knows isn't true -- or at least that he can't justify -- but wants to assert anyway in a suitably deniable fashion.
Chuck said...
Like father, like daughter. (Le Pen.)
And let's absolutely not forget how cozy Donald Trump got, with Marine Le Pen.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/04/21/trump-is-now-supporting-far-right-french-candidate-marine-le-pen-for-all-intents-and-purposes/
I'd hold a grudge, if I were in Macron's position.
And off topic we go. My one Chuck response for the day.
Like vichy frenchmen, like vichy republican.
The WAPO is the source of news all life long republicans go to to know what Trump is thinking.
The only thing worse than a democrat is a democrat pretending to be a republican. Piss off traitor and stop clogging up these threads with your lies and bullshit.
...Please - antisemitism in the US exists almost exclusively on the LEFT.
That is TRUE! Trump (parts of Trump, anyway) represent real departures for most Republicans. Trump's coziness with Le Pen on grounds of nationalism, anti-immigration, and even mild anti-Semitism are noteworthy exceptions.
And yes, Trump is an unlikely anti-Semite. Trump, it could very well be argued, is not an anti-Semite at all. Notwithstanding his "little guys wearing yarmulkes" comment, and the collected speeches of Adolph Hitler next to his bed, Trump's got Jewish friends and confidantes; a Jewish son-in-law, a convert Jewish daughter, Jewish grandchildren, and -- maybe most important -- a spectacular relationship with the Israeli Prime Minister, at least when Trump isn't blowing Israeli intelligence info.
Levinas, a Jew and a Frenchman, at the end of a preface to _Existence and Existents_:
"These studies begun before the war were continued and written down for the most part in captivity. The stalag is evoked here not as a guarantee of profundity nor as a claim to indulgence, but as an explanation for the absence of any consideration of those philsophical works published, with so much impact, between 1940 and 1945."
Existence and Existence is a wonderful poetic analysis of boredom and indolence, by the way, as a means of proving this or that about existence.
Etienne, I am part Prussian. What do you think about what happened to my homeland? Do I have a right to return and self-govern occupied East Prussia?
rhhardin said...
For all intents and purposes is hackneyed, a cliche. It means somebody doesn't know how to write.
That was my first thought upon reading the droning dreck attempting to drag Trump into the spotlight Althouse turned on Macron's declaration. Pavlov's dog is autistic compared to the monomania of the lifelong loser from Da-twa'.
Actually almost every mid-east (and I use that term very broadly) nation has been cleansed of Jews. Israel is more comparable to an Indian reservation in the US. A tiny area of self-governance.
And if Israel is ever successfully invaded by Arabs, the remaining Jews in the area will not be allowed to open casinos and get rich.
LePen and daughter are known anti Semites, it was good to see France reject them. And yes, Trump was supportive of Le Pen, something we shouldn't gloss over.
rhhardin: Atrocity/sacrifice/etc remembranecs are always serving somebody else's current interests.
You're asked to think that some current thing deserves the same attitude as some other thing.
Precisely.
Always wise to be alert to this attempted sleight-of-hand wielded against one's own interests. Though to call it "sleight-of-hand" is perhaps attributing too much finesse to its current practitioners, who are remarkably crude (and getting cruder) in its deployment.
Macron and Trump had a positive meeting in France last week.
Leftists have great pool of antisemitism in their ranks. cough *angry American Lesbians* cough. Lets not gloss over that.
Macron is a good man, he invited Trump despite Trump's support for the anti Semites Le Pen. Trump should take a lesson from Macron. American Lesbians? Who are they? Never heard of them.
Good for Macron!!
Bimbo,
I looked it up, you're referring to the march in Chicago, where the Jewish Star flags were prohibited? I can assure you that this isn't anything most liberals and Democrats condone.
Unknown said...
I looked it up, you're referring to the march in Chicago, where the Jewish Star flags were prohibited? I can assure you that this isn't anything most liberals and Democrats condone.
Of course they condone it. Otherwise they would be kicking those who undertook those actions out of their institutions.
Martin said...
Good for Macron!!
Q: What does it take for the French to admit their country did something wrong?
A: A political opponent to blame it on.
Of course Trump condones the philosophy of his alt right white supremacist supporters, he has one as his top aid in the White House named Bannon.
And yes, Trump was supportive of Le Pen, something we shouldn't gloss over.
Another one issue voter,
Of course, I assume you are also a million Muslim immigrant voter,.
France may have been responsible, but the French were not. Macron is a [class] diversitist channeling Nazi ideology. The rise of far-left, anti-native sentiment on a global scale is a clear and progressive risk. Their adoption of the final solution in abortion rites and elective wars as a social cause only emphasizes their deranged outlook.
...the march in Chicago, where the Jewish Star flags were prohibited? I can assure you that this isn't anything most liberals and Democrats condone.
Bullshit. Any visit to a college campus would disabuse you of this falsehood. Self-described "liberals" and "progressives" love to exclude Jews from campus events, and can usually be found supporting the rabid pro-Palestinian students who shout down Jewish students and call them murderers. I've seen the blue and white flags ripped from peaceful students' hands and burned by "liberals" and "progressives."
If "most" don't go along with it why is it that academia is the dominant marketplace for Israel-bashing and Jew-hating in modern America? Where are the conservative-run institutions that bar Jews from participating and equate them with Nazis? Why can a politician like Hillary get away with calling her husband's enemies "fucking jew bastards" (according to the Secret Service), yet only Trump is ever equated with antisemitism?
It is a curious world, eh?
Unknown said...
Of course Trump condones the philosophy of his alt right white supremacist supporters, he has one as his top aid in the White House named Bannon.
OK coward who hides behind the Unknown tag, name me the Top Five Bannon quotes that reveal his "alt right white supremacist" bonafides. Shouldn't be hard since this is a common assertion by your side.
Show me where he is the man you describe! On what are you building this myth?
Levinas, a Jew and a Frenchman walk into a bar.
The Frenchman says to the Jew, "The stalag is evoked here not as a guarantee of profundity nor as a claim to indulgence."
"That was between 1940 and 1945", added Levinas, "as an explanation for the absence of any consideration."
The Jew says "Well, I'll be gol-durned, partners!" Because Texas.
Good for Macron. He knows America will be leading the world his entire political career.
The holocaust was so horrible that the Germans, the vast majority of whom, loved Hitler, should have been expelled from Germany, and their country given to the Jews. Deutcshland would have to be renamed to, perhaps, Israel.
In a similar vein, if things get bad enough under Trump, the people who uncritically support him, should be expelled. There most likely landing spot is Siberia because they are not disturbed in the least by Trump's coziness and collusion with the Russians to steal the election from Hillary. Siberia would have to be renamed to, perhaps, Losersville.
I see that our far left contributors such as unknown and Chuck are continuing with the Trump as anti-jewish narrative.
Laughable really.
if things get bad enough under Trump, the people who uncritically support him, should be expelled.
The left's addiction to authoritarian solutions.
I wish I thought you were joking.
if Israel is ever successfully invaded by Arabs, the remaining Jews
The native American tribes would have fared better if they were not populated by imperial, genocidal, slavers with a [class] diversity (e.g. racist, minority) outlook. So, each tribe divided and subdivided and formed alliances as they believed equitable to their pursuit of self-determination. Something similar happened in South Africa, where the native whites and native blacks also divided into opposition groups. For example, the Mandela faction attacked/terrorized nonconforming native blacks. Today, this internal threat is manifested between left and right French, left and right Jews, native and globalist interests, etc.
Hey Chuck... Le Pen is an ally against Islamism. So of course Trump is cozy with her. Macron also won in part because he too is anti-Islamism.
Of course Trump condones the philosophy of his alt right white supremacist supporters, he has one as his top aid in the White House named Bannon.
There's no question the left wing leaders in question took the actions they are accused of.
There's no evidence Bannon supports white supremacy.
Certain left wingers can't understand why we don't consider these things equivalent. They just don't seem to recognize any difference between facts and political smears which not coincidentally explains their political beliefs.
"I'd hold a grudge, if I were in Macron's position."
The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.
if things get bad enough under Trump, the people who uncritically support him, should be expelled.
Sixty-three million people voted for Trump. In an election. He won.
But hey, the hell with that. Let's expel them. From the country they are citizens of. Cause we disagree with them and that's just how we roll.
Good luck with that.
This post seems more appropriate than most to laugh and mock Vichy Chuck.
Our very own lifelong Republican is just like Petain, if Petain fantasized about violently putting his hands on female television personalities and trafficking in mental health speculation on children.
Except Phillippe had an admirable and distinguished career up until his early 80s, wherease Vichy Chuck has been a Spergy loser all through his life.
Also, Petain was considered quite the ladies man, so, once again, far superior to LLR.
"But hey, the hell with that. Let's expel them."
Wouldn't you prefer Siberia to the U.S. possession of Guantanamo? I was trying to do you a favor, and that's the thanks I get. Brave patriots in the country died so you can vote. You put a clown in office, so you have to leave on a one-way permanent vacation.
Jean-Marie Le Pen was and is an anti-Semite. His daughter, Marine, went to some lengths to distance herself from him. The two are estranged and have been for years.
I'm willing to believe that Europe probably has some right-wing antisemites. The evangelicals here are strong supporters of Israel. Europe lacks that component. But most anti-Semitism is found on the left these days.
Unknown spewed about the Chicago left-wing antisemites:
"I can assure you that this isn't anything most liberals and Democrats condone."
Why should we believe you? Who gave you the inside scoop on what "most" liberals and Democrats condone and don't condone? You're a known liar.
Using the same logic you use to condemn all Trump voters and conservatives for anything one Trump supporter says, I hereby declare all liberals to be stinking, vile Jew haters on the basis of the Chicago pussy hat marchers.
Alinsky rules, sweetie.
"But hey, the hell with that. Let's expel them. From the country they are citizens of. Cause we disagree with them and that's just how we roll.
Good luck with that."
yeah, that would work out well. Especially since the Trump voters have most of the guns and the military votes GOP.
Who will expel them? The pussy hats and their band of male eunuchs?
I should ignore Trumpit because Trumpit is insane. But he/she/xer is so damn funny something.
President-Mom-Jeans said...
This post seems more appropriate than most to laugh and mock Vichy Chuck.
Our very own lifelong Republican is just like Petain, if Petain fantasized about violently putting his hands on female television personalities and trafficking in mental health speculation on children.
Except Phillippe had an admirable and distinguished career up until his early 80s, wherease Vichy Chuck has been a Spergy loser all through his life.
You fucking jackass. You are doing exactly what Althouse has asked, warned, threatened, begged and pleaded with her commenters to NOT do!
You didn't add anything of substance here. You just went off on me, personally. And nothing else. All because -- and only because -- I criticized Trump. Not a fight between commenters; no, you just started that all on your own. You don't know me from Adam, yet you use this blog to attack me personally.
Even going back to the laughable Greta van Susteren kerfuffle. (She claimed that Corey Lewandowski's grabbing of reporter Michelle Fields was not any form of simple assault, so I proposed doing the same to Greta to see how she liked it. I never "fantasized" about "violence.") And worst of all, trying to smear me baselessly with the Barron Trump/autism question.
You pull this shit, and you make things a lot more miserable for this blog's hostess. She will not like it.
Perhaps after all this time, the question of French conduct during the war is not as explosive as it was 30 years ago. Although the French have long pretended that the collaborators were rare birds who were all dealt with after the way and outnumbered by brave Resistance fighters, there were an awful lot of collaborators and not that many Resistance fighters. The whole topic is a moral morass. Eminent cultural figures like Jean Cocteau and Maurice Chevalier and Jean-Paul Sartre were more than happy to cozy up to the Nazis and continued to get their plays produced during the war. In Sartre’s case, the hypocrisy was compounded when he pretended to have been in the Resistance and ferociously attacked collaborators after the war. Albert Camus actually was in the Resistance, although he didn’t do much of anything and never exaggerated his own role.
And of course, the Resistance itself was not morally pure, since many of them were Stalinists. Some of the people they denounced and executed after the war may have been victims of personal vendettas, not actual collaborators.
I can assure you that this isn't anything most liberals and Democrats condone.
Only 49.9% condone it.
Eminent cultural figures like Jean Cocteau and Maurice Chevalier and Jean-Paul Sartre were more than happy to cozy up to the Nazis and continued to get their plays produced during the war.
"I recall the president of a large American university who, in the spring of 1933, witnessed the taking over of an old and famous German university by a newly appointed Nazi commissar. "The fellow," my friend reported, "made the most outrageous, most illiterate speech, insulting systematically every senior member of the faculty and sneering openly at learning, intellectual honesty and all the things the university stood for. Yet when he asked for questions, one full professor after the other got up and asked: 'Will there be more money for plant biology?' 'Will we get a bigger law library?' 'Will we get more assistants?' When they were assured that there would be plenty of money for anyone willing to 'co-operate,' they all sat down, smugly content." -- Peter Drucker, Landmarks of Tomorrow
It is interesting to see the far left and "lifelong republicans" continue to double down on the standard left attacks on a republican President despite the lack of electoral success to date with those tactics.
It's comforting to see that they have not learned their lessons and continue to demonstrate zero adaptive capabilities.
"But most anti-Semitism is found on the left these days."
How do you know? How do you quantify that? Are there statistics to support this contention?
Brave patriots in the country died so you can vote. You put a clown in office, so you have to leave on a one-way permanent vacation.
http://thehill.com/policy/defense/281318-poll-military-voters-prefer-trump-over-clinton
Who, exactly, is going to expel me?
"Let's be clear - Zionists were terrorists who's sole position in life was to get the Brits out of Palestine..."
This is why we need to teach math in school. Set theory in particular.
Or maybe the commenter is simply misinformed.
Wouldn't you prefer Siberia to the U.S. possession of Guantanamo?
By the way, this is definitely how you get more Trump.
Looks like Trumpit doesn't actually have any moral objection to things like the 'Trail of Tears' as long as the right people ('right' in more ways than one) are expelled from their homes forever. In fact, the new Trail of Tears he supports would be roughly six hundred times larger than the original. Yet somehow he doesn't seem to think of himself as a Fascist or an evil person - no, it's the other side that are the real Fascists, who deserve everything he fantasizes about doing to them.
I like Macron better all the time.
You pull this shit, and you make things a lot more miserable for this blog's hostess. She will not like it.
Dear Chuck, this blog's hostess can take care of herself. She does not need your help.
Macron is smarter than nearly every Jew I personally know. What's unbelievable is Jewish millennials joining in the anti-Zionist movement. Perhaps they're hoping to be on the last cattle car loaded by their Dumbocrat friends.
How do you know? How do you quantify that? Are there statistics to support this contention?
7/17/17, 1:40 PM
Just take a look at college campuses.
@Cookie, I know because I open my eyes and look. Note that it is the DNC, not the RNC, that has a former hard core Farrakhan supporter as it's Deputy Chairman.
I can assure you that this isn't anything most liberals and Democrats condone.
Only the leadership and nearly all activists.
Legal Insurrection has been keeping tabs on Left-wing antisemitism on college campuses for years now. Perhaps Cookie would like to explore there?
"'How do you know? How do you quantify that? Are there statistics to support this contention?'
"Just take a look at college campuses."
What does that mean? Which college campuses? What is it I should look at? Why do you assume everyone on a college campus is on the left, (even assuming there is something happening on college campuses that demonstrates anti-semitism).
"@Cookie, I know because I open my eyes and look. Note that it is the DNC, not the RNC, that has a former hard core Farrakhan supporter as it's Deputy Chairman."
What is it you see when you "open (your) eyes and look?" What anti-semitism has Keith Ellison demonstrated, either in private or in his public life? How would anti-semitism in the Democratic party prove that "the left" in general is populated by a large number of anti-semites? Do you equate the Democrats with the left?
"Legal Insurrection has been keeping tabs on Left-wing antisemitism on college campuses for years now. Perhaps Cookie would like to explore there?"
Do you have any links to any of their articles that pertain to left-wing antisemitism on campuses? I checked the site, but nothing jumped out at me as having to do with the subject. Assuming there are articles about unequivocally antisemitic behavior or expression on campus, (as opposed to behavior or expression that is labeled "antisemitic" but which may not be self-evidently so), how does this translate statistically to the left as a whole?
Cookie,
'Tis a very simple matter to Google "campus anti-Semitism" instead of passively waiting for others to drop links like a dog waiting for crumbs to fall off the table.
Here's one. While the writer talks about instances of "alt right and left" anti-Semitism, I note the actual list provided only shows leftist anti-Semitism:
https://www.algemeiner.com/2016/12/26/campus-antisemitism-the-year-in-review/
Another one:
http://www.ibtimes.com/anti-semitism-campus-most-jewish-students-feel-discriminated-against-new-study-finds-2027557
Jewish San Francisco State students are suing the university:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/231332
There is lots more where that comes from, including a NY Times story about how the rise of BLM on campuses has also led to a rise in anti-Semitism. (Which should be no surprise to anybody who remembers that Black Panthers of the late '60's were also largely Jew haters. Many of them turned on the Jews who had helped them during the Civil Rights movement.)
Please don't try to tell me that college campuses are hotbeds of alt right activity or that the open hostility to Zionism has nothing at all to do with Jew hatred.
"'Tis a very simple matter to Google "campus anti-Semitism" instead of passively waiting for others to drop links like a dog waiting for crumbs to fall off the table."
That's not it. Persons asserting the prevalence of leftist anti-semitism assume the burden of providing evidence that their assertions have validity. Offering vague generalities about "take a look at college campuses" suggests the assertions are made without any actual knowledge.
Offering vague generalities about "take a look at college campuses" suggests the assertions are made without any actual knowledge.
7/17/17, 3:14 PM
No, it suggests that the topic has been so widely written about that a reasonably well-informed person would know about it. When even the NY Times is forced to take notice, it's hardly a secret.
@exiledonmainstreet
I haven't had time to review your links in depth, but I skimmed over them. They are short on particulars, (and the article about Jewish students "feeling" they have been discriminated against has to do with what may in many cases but subjective perceptions, which do not necessarily equate to their having experienced actual discrimination).
Also, it seems as if the articles equate criticism of Israel as de facto antisemitism. Since when is Israel exempt from criticism of their policies and behavior? No country is free of policies or behavior that may be criticized, and Israel surely is not, as America surely is not.
It indeed may be that some criticize Israel because they harbor general antisemitic feelings, but I do not believe all who criticize Israel are antisemites, (and many its critics of Israel are Jews), and to make such a blanket charge serves only those who will not accept or consider any criticism of Israel as all. That is, it is intended to forestall all criticism as being antisemitic by definition.
When we're talking about the kind of "anti-Zionism" of non-Jews, what it is is anti-semitism applied to a state. It's classic anti-semitism - false accusations of evil.
Michael K said...7/17/17, 10:21 AM
Two friends of mine, both neurosurgeons, sPent the war in France after their parents got out of Poland where the older was born on September 1, 1939. It's always amazed me that a Jewish kid born that day survived the war,
Fo a completely irrelevant reason, the British assassinated Reinhard Heydrich, the chief organizer of the murder of the Jews, who was also chief of the Reich Main Security Office (including the Gestapo, Kripo, and SD) before he was going to go to France, and the Nazis never quite achieved the kind of control in france taht they got in the Netherlands.
About half the Jews in France survived the war.
The Vichy regime in France actually volunteered on iuts own initiative to help the Nazis in this, in hopes that this would give them more independence and because maybe some wanted it too.
Big Mike said...
You pull this shit, and you make things a lot more miserable for this blog's hostess. She will not like it.
Dear Chuck, this blog's hostess can take care of herself. She does not need your help.
7/17/17, 1:55 PM
Oooh! Look, LLR, I don't remember what upsets you anymore, but could you just pretend I said it, and go off on one of your little tirades? Boring day at work, could use a laugh. There--I pulled some shit. Go! Feel free to rat me out to the hostess, tell her I made you do it. Guilty, Ann, I just wanted to watch him dance.
...
Etienne,
Disappointing. But I shan't dance for you, I just assume you are trying to offend. Please let me know if you are serious and require rebuttal.
...
exiled, etc, re Robert Cook: He shields himself in ignorance. Very lawyerly. The things he knows are axiomatic requiring no proof, but anything you want to say to him has to have six or eight sources. He's not here to learn, he's here to teach.
...
Big Mike,
Macron is smarter than nearly every Jew I personally know.
? You should get out more. What precisely did he do to earn your esteem?
What's unbelievable is Jewish millennials joining in the anti-Zionist movement. Perhaps they're hoping to be on the last cattle car loaded by their Dumbocrat friends.
This has aspects of truth, but you have misunderstood. The modern virus infecting modern Jewish thought is idealism cum self-abnegation. If "right" or "tikkun olam" demands their own immolation, apparently, so mote it be (they may not understand "annihilation" quite well not having faced it in their own persons lately), or else the Lord will provide, or whatever. Quite unrealistic, as most idealism is. But you do see it far more in Jews on the non-religious end of the spectrum.
"re Robert Cook: ...he's here to teach."
NOW you're getting it!
What anti-semitism has Keith Ellison demonstrated, either in private or in his public life?
@Cookie, one cannot belong to the Nation of Islam without being an anti-Semite. Don't bother to try to parse the Talmud on me. You know it's true. Anything from you to the contrary is simply a lie.
Do you equate the Democrats with the left?
The Democrats have equated themselves with the left. That you are further left than the most extremist Democrat does not change that.
How ridiculous. The French were acting under German orders to "round up Jews". Not only that, but many of these Jews were not Frenchmen but were native-born Germans, Czechs, Poles, etc.
I always find it amusing how tough and brave everyone is when *talking* about things in the past. It seems everyone would have gone out a strangled a German solider with their bare hands, if "*They* had been alive back then.
Except, that's not how the French or anyone else behaves, or has behaved, in the history of the World. When occupied, 95% of the people, look after themselves and their families, then they look after their fellow countrymen, and everyone else comes last.
@Bad LT, Macron has recognized that anti-Zionism is anti-semitism in disguise. And I've been to plenty of Bar Mitzvahs and Bat Mitzvahs in my time. When everyone else at the table thinks we're all MOT, a goy can get quite an earful.
And if the bait that hooks young Jews into anti-semitism is what they have been led to believe is "idealism," that doesn't make the anti-semitism into something else, does it?
It was moronic of France to declare war on Hitler, as shown by their defeat. They had only 50% of Germany's available military manpower, a much smaller -and inferior - air force, and no margin for error, since Paris lies only 250 miles from the Germany.
Once the Germans broke through at Sedan, they were done for, since the Germans had 3 different routes to victory, West to the Channel, SW directly to Paris, or directly S - thereby trapping the French Troops in the Maginot line.
The Soviets, OTOH, could lose millions of men and get pushed back 300 miles on a 900 mile front and still keep on fighting. Space and bad roads are your friend.
"'What anti-semitism has Keith Ellison demonstrated, either in private or in his public life?'
"@Cookie, one cannot belong to the Nation of Islam without being an anti-Semite. Don't bother to try to parse the Talmud on me. You know it's true. Anything from you to the contrary is simply a lie."
That's not a substantive answer, and it amounts to a blanket smear of Muslims. If there were a comparable term for bigotry toward Muslims such as "anti-semitism," it would describe your comment.
" it amounts to a blanket smear of Muslims.'
Nation of Islam, that American sect, not Muslims in general. Its in their dogma.
Though you can make a really good case that Sunni Muslims traditionally had a definite and often intense cultural/religious antipathy vs Jews. Moreso than European Christendom, or most of it, though they were far less efficient about it. What is certain is that Sunni Islam is still far more anti-Jewish than any other cultural group on earth.
Shiite Muslims, interestingly, not so much.
If there were a comparable term for bigotry toward Muslims such as "anti-semitism," it would describe your comment.
Islamophobia. The difference being, there are good reason to fear Islam.
Macron has recognized that anti-Zionism is anti-semitism in disguise.
This one bugs me. It implies that there can be no good faith opposition to Israel.
Prior to the Intafada, I was very much pro-Palestine and anti-Israel. I was very much anti-Zionist. However I have never been anti-Semitic.
...the march in Chicago, where the Jewish Star flags were prohibited? I can assure you that this isn't anything most liberals and Democrats condone.
Then why does it happen over and over again?
"It was moronic of France to declare war on Hitler, as shown by their defeat. They had only 50% of Germany's available military manpower, a much smaller -and inferior - air force, and no margin for error, since Paris lies only 250 miles from the Germany."
This is all questionable. France had immense reserves of manpower from their colonies, they had Britain and its empire (even leaving out India) as an ally - between them much more manpower than Germany.
Besides which France alone had the mobilized industrial potential and a better economy at the time than Germany, and with Britain/Empire, plus control of the seas and the trade of nearly the whole globe to draw on, as Germany didn't. Besides this there was the factor of the US. The Allies in 1940, even leaving out the US, effectively had over double the German GDP.
Little known fact - 30% of the active French Air Force in May 1940 was already equipped with US aircraft, and thousands more planes were on the way. Franco-British aircraft production had already increased to double the German rate by May 1940, even discounting US aircraft in the pipeline and production capacity already made available to the allies. The allies were just a few months from achieving air superiority over the Luftwaffe. The Germans attacked just in time.
And the air war did not go entirely well for the Luftwaffe anyway. The Luftwaffe casualties were enormous, actually somewhat exceeding the allied losses, and not as easily replaceable. The only reason the allies came off so much worse was from the large number of overrun airfields and production facilities. Had the Schickelschnitt failed the Luftwaffe would have been outnumbered even faster.
And France was already in most cases better armed than Germany, especially in artillery and armor, and far more so in motor transport. Add Britain to this, especially in motorization. Much of the German army mobilized for the campaign, all those infantry divisions, was remarkably poorly armed, especially in artillery, and completely lacked transport, even horses, besides lacking ammunition.
And the Germans themselves feared the prospect of a failed attack, as that would have led to a WWI situation all over again, and most likely a collapse of confidence in the Nazi government.
The only real advantages Germany had over its opponents were in the soft factors of leadership and military talent. With these they overcame huge odds. Much of the rest of Nazi military prestige, and the political will to continue the world war, and the hardships of a war economy, was a direct result of the victory over France. This was a "Strange Victory" indeed.
"It implies that there can be no good faith opposition to Israel."
It raises the point of - what about Israel can one oppose without being Anti-Jewish?
It seems like, up to say the 1920's, one could oppose Jewish settlement there. But that idea became obsolete around the time enough Jews had moved to Israel that they formed a permanent fact on the ground, not removable by any civilized means. To oppose Jewish settlement then amounted to - what? A requirement for some form of ethnic cleansing/genocide?
After the Jewish-Arab troubles of the 1920's-30's (which the Arabs started) it does not seem like anyone could expect the two parties to live in peace together. Some sort of Jewish polity became inevitable. One could oppose this, again, only by being implicitly in favor of genocide.
After 1949 and Israel becoming a recognized state, opposing the existence of Israel was clearly a very thinly veiled call to genocide.
As for a mixed Arab-Jewish state with near-equal numbers of Arabs and Jews - we know very well that this is impossible. Jews may tolerate some Arabs, but Arabs will not tolerate Jews, this being a fundamental of their nature as we have learned, and such a composite, if any Jewish authorities were stupid enough to agree to it, would instantly fall into mutual slaughter and quickly be divided again. Any wish for such is, as above, an implicit call for massacre.
So where are we? Taking realities into account, in what way, and for what purpose, can one oppose Israel?
Sichelschnitt not Schickelschnitt
Sickle-cut, the unofficial name for the German offensive plan.
Nation of Islam == all Muslims? Cookie, every time I think you can't possibly be that out of touch with reality you write something which proves you're even further out there than I had imagined. Even the SPLC recognizes the Nation of Islam as a hate group.
The only real advantages Germany had over its opponents were in the soft factors of leadership and military talent.
I have a book about this but can't recall the title. It is something like "Incredible Victory" but that doesn't come up on Amazon.
The French did have a larger army and only a small share of the German army was motorized in 1940.
Later in the war they used Czech and French tanks.
I was pretty neutral on Israel until Entebbe.
That mission showed me that they were winners.
"The French did have a larger army and only a small share of the German army was motorized in 1940."
You're right about having the French having slightly more trucks. Plus, the 10 British Divisions were all motorized. However, in May 1940 it didn't make much of difference.
But no, they didn't have a "larger army". In June 1940, The Germans had 140 divisions +20 divisions In Poland. Later in June 1941, the Germans would attack the USSR with 160 divisions and have 40 elsewhere. Meanwhile, depending on who you read, the French had 100 or 110 divisions.
The Germans had approximately 12 million men of military age, the French 6 million.
The ratio was similar to that in WW1. In Jan 1918 the Germans had 200 Divisions on the Western front with another 40 elsewhere, the French had 120 Divisions in total.
Too little, too late.
So where are we? Taking realities into account, in what way, and for what purpose, can one oppose Israel?
When they do self-defeating things for the sake of pride or cruelty.
I was very much anti-Zionist. However I have never been anti-Semitic.
So it's not anti-Jewish to claim that their nation, alone, should never have the rights of sovereignty?
"@Cookie, one cannot belong to the Nation of Islam without being an anti-Semite. Don't bother to try to parse the Talmud on me. You know it's true. Anything from you to the contrary is simply a lie."
That's not a substantive answer, and it amounts to a blanket smear of Muslims.
Picking a bone with NOI membership is now a "blanket smear of Muslims?"
Fucking ridiculous.
It bugs me that people think Zionist is a synonym for Jew.
True. Some Jews prefer to be prevented from exercising political autonomy in their historic homeland despite being a clear majority in the part where they do so.
They are not the sort of people you want making decisions on your behalf.
Toothless is sticking up for me? Well thank you, sir. Seriously.
So where are we? Taking realities into account, in what way, and for what purpose, can one oppose Israel?
I used to believe in a two state solution, so I opposed settlements on the occupied territories, and incidents like Sabra and Shatila. It was only after the Palestinians proved that they were not interested in peace in any form during the Intafada that I began to whole heartedly support Israel's actions. In fact I think the Palestinian "refugees" should be resettled in Muslim countries now.
I still think Jerusalem should be an international city patrolled by the Swiss guard.
I was very much anti-Zionist. However I have never been anti-Semitic.
So it's not anti-Jewish to claim that their nation, alone, should never have the rights of sovereignty?
I believed in Israel's sovereignty within the 1967 borders. I supported a two state solution so I was opposed to the Zionist desire to enlarge Israel and settle the occupied territories. As I said above i have since changed my mind.
Nation of Islam == all Muslims?
The Nation of Islam aren't even real Muslims. That's why Farrakhan had Malcolm X killed when he returned as a Haji from Mecca. The one redeeming feature of true Islam is its rejection of racism. The NoI is based on racism. Thy have some really kooky beliefs about the origins of man and the races.
I still think Jerusalem should be an international city patrolled by the Swiss guard.
Oh for god's sake.
Watch all your resettled Palestinians run right back in the next day to "take it over" in that peaceful way you imagine, just like they did in Ramallah.
You believed in Palestinian autonomy, you believed in Israel's sovereignty... (past tense with both, apparently). Just to get it straight - is there anything you didn't believe in? I can't take seriously someone who's on every conceivable side of the same issue.
What the Middle East needs a whole lot less of is people who want to get involved in it... especially from afar. Go live there if you feel so strongly about the need to have an opinion on it and fix all its problems.
...the Zionist desire to enlarge Israel and settle the occupied territories.
That's the European definition. Zionism is Jewish nationalism (i.e. sovereignty) and has nothing to do with enlargement or where else to settle. The only reason it's controversial is because in Muslim theology it's wrong to let any non-Muslim peoples have sovereignty or even autonomy anywhere in dar al Islam! (Look up the term). They made such a big deal out of that for so long that the surrender monkeys of Europe lazily began to accept that maybe it was pejorative for a good reason that they thought they could identify with - such as opposing occupation. And now the Muslim Arabs got their wish of confounding a big, influential chunk of the world into identifying with their own peculiar theological cause. Congratulations for joining them!
Gahrie, Jerusalem is so important to you that you want it guarded from a billion orcs by one small company of foreign mercenaries? Or is it that you want it guarded by Catholics?
What's the point of the Swiss guard? That they guard the Vatican? Is the Vatican a city of equal importance to Christians, Jews, and Muslims? Jerusalem is Israel. Yes, the holy city of Christians, Jews, and Muslims belongs to the Jews, but all are welcome. Israel provides complete access to Jerusalem to all comers.
So I don't see the need for or the value of Swiss guards. It's not like the Vatican faces daily existential threat. When was the last suicide bomber at the Holy See? Swiss Guards made their rep back when halberds were big.
Just to say that proposing some ceremonial body to perform security duties in a non-permissive environment is misreading the situation.
Blogger The Toothless Revolutionary said...
So where are we? Taking realities into account, in what way, and for what purpose, can one oppose Israel?
When they do self-defeating things for the sake of pride or cruelty.
7/17/17, 8:21 PM
Go Toothless! Go Toothless! Bring the noise! Can I get a witness?
But let me be crueler and more realistic, because Nations (the actual meaning, BTW, of the word "goyim") have no permanent friends, only permanent interests. You're entitled to oppose Israel or its interests if Israel opposes you or your interests.
For instance, you might believe in some Jewish conspiracy at your throat, or just find the Jews are ripe for a good plucking. BTDT.
Or you might think that the oil weapon is of such a nature as to preclude your supporting the Jewish state. Or that with the Arabs at your back, you're undefeatable, or at least will get a comfortable sinecure thereafter. Or that realpolitik with say Russia demands some kind of sacrifice.
That decision was made by Europe/ROW largely in one way; the US took the other way, partly because we knew then what we knew hundreds of years ago and forget periodically, and what most of Europe/ROW forgets or ignores: once you pay the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Dane.
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