July 28, 2017

"The clerk read the Arizona senator's surname in the microphone of the tense Senate chamber. The two words were met with silence..."

... McCain had stepped out of the room minutes before. But moments later, he reappeared."
By then, the alphabetical roll call had reached Sen. Gary Peters of Michigan. McCain walked over to the front of the chamber, raising his right arm. He held it up in the air until he had the attention of the clerk. No," he said, with a swift thumbs-down.

It was a "no" that could barely be heard on C-SPAN, and a thumbs-down that viewers would not have been able to easily make out. But the moment was crystal clear for the dozens of reporters watching from the gallery above, who let out a collective gasp and made a stampede exit for the wooden double doors behind them to report the news.
Listen for the "gasp":

267 comments:

1 – 200 of 267   Newer›   Newest»
rehajm said...

I like Schumer with the Stiffle Edith!! flailing to shut up the gloaters.

You're not fooling anybody Chuck.

Jake said...

John McCain served his country honorably but, that was a long time ago.

Darrell said...

A bastard 'til the end.

Clyde said...

Will The Nation's Matt Bors issue a retraction of the morbid John McCain cartoon from yesterday? Because it seems that the Grim Reaper can't count on McCain any more than Republican voters can.

Michael The Magnificent said...

Fucking McCain!

sakredkow said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
traditionalguy said...

Time rolls on, but the GOP Bullshit is dead now. They are going the way of the Whigs. I hope their money was worth it.

Mark said...

Let's dispense now with that BS that he is immune from any criticism because of this or that.

Probably no one person is more responsible for the utter destruction of the GOP, and hence many of the problems we are experiencing today, than The Maverick, who has like wise sabotaged needed policies and legislation for two decades now.

Darrell said...

McCain splashes another one.

surfed said...

Things have to die before they are reborn. Health Care being one of those things.

Mark said...

And this is why so many were so vociferous in opposing his presidential nomination in 2000 and 2008.

Darrell said...

It's the VA for you now, John. God help you!

Lyle Smith said...

The Nation cartoon must have got to him. The Grim Reapers are getting ready. Hitchens would call it, living dyingly.

Mid-Life Lawyer said...

Some collective gasp! One woman's squawk, it sounded like.

MayBee said...

So.

Will we be able to fix what is going on in healthcare without all the hysterics now?

Jon Burack said...

All the way around, this vote on this bill is utterly trivial in every respect. That so many in the media and the public will act as if something important happened is a testimony to how unable we now are to identify real problems and issues worthy of attention - so besotted that is by ideological prisms, right and left, through which we look around at everything now. I don't doubt the left will gloat, the right will rail. I suppose there could be bad ramifications for the Republican Party in particular. If they had a plan that made a lick of sense that might matter. That the Democrats have already proved they have no plan that makes a lick of sense means they will not matter either. Maybe it will lead on to better things. Maybe not. One thing that is so, McCain is right that the way legislation now gets done is preposterous, full of gimmicks and rube Goldberg devices whose self-defeating flaws even those fashioning the legislation do not understand or even seem to care about. Now fixing that - that would be something.

Now Is the Time! said...

President Trump was right about McCain being captured. Too bad the North Koreans released him all those years ago. Though they clearly brainwashed him into being the Manchurian Senator.

rehajm said...

Swamp wins!

Danno said...

Maybe the Senate should vote on Ron Johnson's proposal to make Congressmen/women buy their health care coverage without subsidies as individuals do in their states.

Mazo Jeff said...

Hey "Now"!

It was North VIETNAM!!!!

Chuck said...

So much winning!

Now, we'll get to the Trump plan, right? The "beautiful" plan he had in mind. Coverage for everybody; lowered premiums, lowered co-pays, lowered co-insurance, better coverage, a great plan for everybody, and no cuts to Medicare or Medicaid. That will be so great. Trump will make American healthcare great again.

All we need, is to see that plan from Trump. The way he talked about it. I think everybody would vote for that plan. Just need to see what it looks like. I gotta believe that it would look amazing.

surfed said...

John McCain has "screwed the pooch".

iowan2 said...

McCain and Grahm seem to be the 'leaders' on this. As leaders,( they hijacked the job, now they take the responsibility) they are required to build a coalition to pass legislation. We, conservatives, are tired of Republicans talking, and refuse to put in the hard work of legislating. Establishment Republicans are lazy, and only know how to vote no. They are too stupid to govern.

dreams said...

The liberal media's hero John McCain knows how to get their love and attention. I guess being a hero can be addictive, a lifelong addiction.

Darrell said...

Chuck is a piece of work. The "real" Republicans" he supports told the American people that we had to get rid of Obamacare right from the start--and that they put together a plan to do it right! They lied. They had shit. Now, Trump tell them to vote in their plan and he'll sign it. They don't, and it's all Trump's fault. Yeah, for trusting "real" Republican Uniparty traitors.

Otto said...

What you have to admire about Trump is that everything and everyone gets reduced to their lowest common denominator and then the negotiations begins. Great business acumen.

Chuck said...

What are you gonna do about it, Trumpkins? Huh? You gonna "primary" Lisa Murkowski? You'll need to wait until 2022 to do that. By which time I expect that Donald Trump will be serving a sentence in a federal correctional institution.

You gonna "primary" Susan Collins? She may be the governor of the State of Maine, and retired from the Senate before you can do that.

You gonna "primary" John McCain. Haha! I am dreaming of a conversation between the hero McCain and the draft-dodging weasel Trump, in which McCain says something about how he prefers politicians who weren't captured by the Tea Party.

You can just go suck on Scaramucci's cock, Darrell. Have I got that right? I don't hang out much with the guys from Queens, so I don't know quite how to use all of the cocksucking epithets. I'm pretty sure you'll know.

Amadeus 48 said...

Profiles in confusion, baby.
This is a low point in the history of the GOP. We have never made a coherent case for what should be done with Obamacare and why it would be good for the American people. If the trumpet gives an uncertain sound, who will gird himself for the battle?
McCain took the opportunity to tell some truth--this wasn't repeal and replace. He also did it it in the typical McCain style, punching his teammates in the face.
I hate to think of Pelosi and Schumer in charge, but the GOP's best case right now is that they are not the Democrats. That is pretty weak tea.

Kate said...

McCain is a small man. And I'm not referring to his height.

rehajm said...

Mirroring Chuck's sentiments Steny Hoyer is on TV this morning blaming the defeat on Donald Trump tweets. For bitter old turds they sure are flexible contortionists.

Cacimbo Cacimbo said...

Come on- was anyone truly surprised by this. McCain hates Trump. He will remain in the Senate with the hope of being able to stick it to Trump again.That this will get him positive press coverage is a bonus. What is best for the American people is not part of his decision making process.

Etienne said...

McCain will be dead by Christmas, and like Goldwater before him, will forever be known as nuclear weapons best friends.

The only thing McCain cares about is trillion dollar ships, and trillion dollar nuclear weapons.

Health care is other peoples problem.

Chuck said...

McCain hates Trump...

Gosh, how could that have happened? It's not like Trump belittled McCain in a way that pretty much the whole world found breathtakingly crude and ignorant. Right? I mean, if Trump had borrowed an ugly and unfunny insult from Al Franken, and used it against McCain himself, that would be one thing. But did such a thing ever happen?

Actually, my honest opinion is that McCain thought that his "No" vote was important and the right thing to do for the Senate, for the nation, and for American health care consumers.

Only in my own fervent dreams, was it all about personal revenge.

But a guy can dream.

Darrell said...

Chuck's "real" Republicans are putting themselves out of power forever. Are they all as stupid as you, Chuck? Do you think Democrat voters are going to help you out? Cut off that nose, Chuck! Spite your face!

DanTheMan said...

>>2022 to do that. By which time I expect that Donald Trump will be serving a sentence in a federal correctional institution

Chuckles has now attained Garage Mahal Level 1!

Congratulations. McMaster.com should be your go-to source for tin foil for your new hat.

harrogate said...

They'll do at least 3 more votes today, so y'all don't have to totally lose heart. McConnell will somehow find a way to strip Americans of health care!

Bay Area Guy said...

It's not good that the Senate failed to repeal Obamacare. But it is good to get on record those Senators who voted Yes and those who voted No.

And those who voted No should expect to face primary challenges.

Feste said...

I’m with Chuck on this one.

McCain could have drama-Tweeted his sighing-swan-song, “no.” He took the high road. Said his final peace in the proper venue. Etienne has a point. But MacArthur’s Republican New Deal-like generosity to the Japanese is long dead. Perhaps never to be revived. McCain soon departs to be with John Glenn, where both may sigh whatever they please. And leave the rest of us where we belong, down here working out this fine mess.

Feste is an Aspiration. Colombo is a phase ...

HoodlumDoodlum said...

They may not be able to suck it, but the GOP has no problem stepping on its own dick over and over again.

Cacimbo Cacimbo said...

Gosh, how could that have happened?

It happened because McCain is an open borders supporter who flip flops on the issue every election. Trump insulted McCain AFTER McCain insulted Trump supporters with, "because what he did was he fired up the crazies.” McCain made that charming comment because they cheered Trump's secure the border platform. That Trump won largely as a result of his stance against illegal immigration infuriates McCain

Chuck said...

Bay Area Guy said...
It's not good that the Senate failed to repeal Obamacare. But it is good to get on record those Senators who voted Yes and those who voted No.

And those who voted No should expect to face primary challenges.

We just went though that. Lisa Murkowski's fresh six-year term just began; she'll be in office longer than Trump. Susan Collins' term expires in 2020, but she is expected to be running for Governor in Maine before then. John McCain was just elected to a fresh six-year term, just like Senator Murkowski. McCain's sixth term. If he completes that term, he will be 86. It is surely his last term.

So who you gonna primary, smartass?

sunsong said...

Joy & gratitude :-)

Darrell said...

That Trump won largely as a result of his stance against illegal immigration infuriates McCain

Yeah because McCain was pretending he was "Mr. Build the Fence" and nobody believed the fucking liar.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

I mean, maybe it's for the good of the Senate and the principle of proper legislative process, sure. Those are important things and McCain has expressed a desire to uphold the institution itself so from that perspective it's an honorable move.
It'd be a bit silly, though, to not acknowledge that the fine people on the other side of the aisle have shown no compunction whatsoever in bending and breaking rules and norms to get their agenda passed. If you care more about doing things "the right way" and they care more about "getting things done" and the Media is all to happy to "score" things in terms of intentions and temporary outcomes (neglecting topics like institutional damage, etc) then you're going to lose.

My view: he's a Senator, he can vote however he pleases. Spin it however you want, but the GOP leadership has done a shockingly bad job at having bills ready to go and advancing a coherent agenda. For that I'm not sure there's much excuse.

Mac McConnell said...

McStain will be dead and Trump will still be President. Midway through President Trumps second term Air Force One will be descending on Alaska.

W.B. Picklesworth said...

I don't normally notice Chuck being so gleeful. It must be hard keeping the pretense up in moments like this.

Chuck said...

Mac McConnell said...
McStain will be dead and Trump will still be President. Midway through President Trumps second term Air Force One will be descending on Alaska.

Well, by 2022, President Trump -- the great, visionary dealmaker -- will have healthcare reform all figured out, right? Trumpcare will be in place, and it will be great, right? Great care, lowered prices; that's what Trump said, right?

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Chuck said...So who you gonna primary, smartass?

Everyone!

Really, though, I'm not sure how being strongly anti-Trump should matter when the topic is the nearly incomprehensible failure of the GOP to have bills they can pass ready for votes they know they'll win. We all understand Trump will sign anything and almost all of these Republicans ran, at some point or other, against these Obama-admin laws and regulations. I've given Ryan and McConnell a lot more credit than most people who complain about the GOPe, since I can see that they've done a lot to hold back the Dem advances at times when the Repubs didn't have the votes to push their own agenda. But these guys all talked a big game about what they'd do if only they had the majorities...and their voters gave them those majorities...and they're acting like the dog who catches the car.

Overselling and underdelivering, you know, is not a way to convince lots of voters that you're worthy of their continued support. It's hard to think of a better way to drive already-cynical voters towards a populist "they're all crooks, drain the swamp" message, really. I mean, do you want more Trump? 'Cause that's how you get more Trump.

Darrell said...

Chuck never got banned from Little Green Footballs.

TwilightofLiberty.com said...

80 year old with brain cancer deciding policy for 320 milliom others. Who does he think he is? A Supreme Court justice?

Seriously though, letting 535 of the dimmest bulbs in the nation who are unable to consider consequences beyond the next election decide health care policy for everyone else - great f'ng idea. Nothing bad will happen.

Darrell said...

Chuck thinks that Presidents write health care Bills.
Quaint.

Brookzene said...

Trump insulted McCain AFTER McCain insulted Trump supporters with, "because what he did was he fired up the crazies.”

So belittle McCain in front of the world for being in a North Korean shithole for five years on behalf of his country. Got it. It's McCain's fault.

rehajm said...

I don't normally notice Chuck being so gleeful. It must be hard keeping the pretense up in moments like this.

(Chuck Schumer flails arm at Chuck to get him to stop looking so gleeful)

Darrell said...

Brookzene doesn't know the difference between North Korea and North VIETNAM.
Quaint.

Cacimbo Cacimbo said...

"GOP leadership has done a shockingly bad job at having bills ready to go and advancing a coherent agenda."

Agree. It is like they are angry Trump won and they have to actually do something. Infuriating.

Chuck said...

I've given Ryan and McConnell a lot more credit than most people who complain about the GOPe, since I can see that they've done a lot to hold back the Dem advances at times when the Repubs didn't have the votes to push their own agenda. But these guys all talked a big game about what they'd do if only they had the majorities...and their voters gave them those majorities...and they're acting like the dog who catches the car.

What did McCain, Murkowski and Collins promise to voters on the subject of healthcare? I can link to pages and pages of Trump quotes on the subject of his "repeal and replace" promises.

That argument -- that Republicans over-promised on healthcare -- just doesn't hold water with me. They surely cast lots of symbolic, signaling, ineffective "repeal" votes. But as for "promises," and especially "phony promises," Trump is the king.

Brookzene said...

Brookzene doesn't know the difference between North Korea and North VIETNAM.
Quaint.


I know. And some other dumbass just got scolded for it.

The Cracker Emcee Activist said...

Then Trump tweeted something about trannies or Muzzies or illegal aliens and the Left obediently lost their shit on Facebook.

"Things have to die before they are reborn. Health Care being one of those things."

Exactly. True of every entitlement, every foreign policy trope, every bureaucratic fortress, every assumption about where the center lies.

Chuck said...

Darrell said...
Chuck thinks that Presidents write health care Bills.
Quaint.

Effective presidents lead on health care.

Why do you think they call it "Obamacare"?

Left Bank of the Charles said...

Love the Roman emperor move with the thumbs down. John McCain will take a lot of grief from conservatives over this, but he was being asked to sign a blank check. The idea of voting for the skinny repeal not so that it would become law but so the bill would got to conference required a great deal of trust that Paul Ryan wouldn't simply gavel it through the House. Good for him.

David Baker said...

McCain got a lot of RINOs off the hook. If truth be told and the vote counted, it would've been upwards of 76 nays, and two abstentions.

So don't blame the ol' maverick for a meaningless last hurrah.

CWJ said...

"Joy & gratitude :-)"

Why? Do you have any skin in the game?

Darrell said...

Why do you think they call it "Obamacare"?

Because right-wing writers like me gave it that name to make sure that the blame was fully assigned to Obama. Just like "Mooch" for Michelle Obama's spending of taxpayer's money. Obama corrected anyone using "Obamacare" for months, until the name was cast in stone. Real LLRs know this.

DanTheMan said...

>So belittle McCain in front of the world for being in a North Korean s***hole

And where was McCain when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, huh?

HoodlumDoodlum said...

What did McCain, Murkowski and Collins promise to voters on the subject of healthcare? I can link to pages and pages of Trump quotes on the subject of his "repeal and replace" promises.

That argument -- that Republicans over-promised on healthcare -- just doesn't hold water with me. They surely cast lots of symbolic, signaling, ineffective "repeal" votes. But as for "promises," and especially "phony promises," Trump is the king.


Hey, buddy? No one's talking about Trump here. The linked article was about a vote Senator McCain cast. My point is about the fact that the Republican LEGISLATORS have failed egregiously and have looked so flat-footed in their attempts to do something they've been talking for years about doing. My point is to ask why the Republican leaders didn't have a binder full of bills ready to be introduced for some quick legislative victories. My point, pal, is that Trump's promises are his own problem and the failure of the Republican legislators to even get a bill to the President's desk is their problem.

Are you joking in saying that you don't believe the current crop of Republicans have been promising to repeal, replace, or otherwise "fix" healthcare since the moment Obamacare passed? Since, in fact, long before now-President Trump's name meant anything, politically? You're not seriously arguing that the failure of Republican legislators to have their ducks in a row and be ready to pass legislation they can all agree to is the fault of Donald Frickin' Trump, are you?

You're not really saying that the Republicans were just kidding around with all those symbolic votes--that they didn't mean to give anyone the impression that they were serious about repeal nor that they had their collective shit together to the point that if they had sufficient majorities they'd actually take action, are you?
The argument that Republicans over-promised on healthcare reform is pretty simple, guy. The Republicans for years now--years!--have said that Obamacare is intolerable and that they, the Republicans, would change things if they were in power. They're now in power and appear to be utterly incapable of changing anything. How is that not "overpromising?"

CWJ said...

Harrogate,

I'll ask you the same question I asked sunsong. Do you have any skin in the game? Because no one can be denied healthcare. Health insurance and who pays what is the issue.

Brookzene said...

Let's see how much further the politics of confrontation will get Donald and the GOP.

Larry J said...

Things like this make me urge his brain tumor to quickly finish the job. It brings to mind these great quotes:

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."
- Clarence Darrow

"Now I know what a statesman is; he's a dead politician. We need more statesmen."
- Bob Edwards

Dude1394 said...

Poster child for forced retirement.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

What did McCain, Murkowski and Collins promise to voters on the subject of healthcare?

Murkowski on the Senate floor, Dec 2015:

“I’ve asked this question before, but I will ask it again: for whom is the Affordable Care Act affordable? Certainly not the average, hard-working Alaskans who are being forced to shell out thousands of dollars for their premiums each month. It isn’t affordable for school districts and other state entities, who will pay huge taxes. It isn’t affordable for kids, whose education will suffer.

“This law is not affordable for anyone in Alaska. That is why I will support the bill that repeals the ACA and wipes out its harmful impacts. I can’t watch premiums for Alaskans shoot up by 30 percent or more each year, see businesses artificially constrained, or see the quality of public education decline.”


[My bold}

Senator McCain Press Statement Dec 2015 (after voting for legislation to repeal Obamacare):


Today, I was proud to join my colleagues in Congress to continue the fight to repeal and replace Obamacare. Since its enactment, Obamacare has been full of empty promises that have only made our nation’s health care problems worse.
---
It is clear that any serious attempt to improve our health care system must begin with a full repeal and replacement of Obamacare, and I will continue fighting on behalf of the people of Arizona to achieve it.


[My bold]

That took me about 45 seconds to find, man.
"But Trump, but Trump!" doesn't answer the question of why these legislators can't seem to do what they've said they really really want to do.

Brookzene said...

McCain coming back to vote for the health care bill was very like Trump inviting Romney to dinner to tease him with a Secretary of State appointment. All theater with the intent of delivering a payback. Don't think Trump doesn't share ownership of this loss.

Browndog said...

All McCain did was provide political cover for the handful of other rats and liars that wanted to vote no. It wasn't going to pass no matter what. Somebody had to be the fall guy. McCain has nothing to lose.

McConnell couldn't got to a microphone fast enough to declare "Time to move on". McCain didn't go rogue/Maverick.

This was planned and coordinated.

Jason said...

McCain did a favor for the GOP. Skinny repeal was worse than the ACA, BY FAR. And would have been hung like an albatross around Republicans' necks.

Browndog said...

Make no mistake-

This has nothing to do with Healthcare, principles, costs, etc. This is about one thing, and one thing only-

Making Donald Trump a failed President.

Brookzene said...

Make no mistake-

This has nothing to do with Healthcare, principles, costs, etc. This is about one thing, and one thing only-

Making Donald Trump a failed President.


Make no mistake-

This has nothing to do with Healthcare, principles, costs, etc. This is about one thing, and one thing only-

Sticking it to America's first black President.

I don't have to say fify do I?

harrogate said...

CWJ:

Not having insurance means depending on the emergency room for care, and ultimately, financial ruin if even the slightest real procedure is needed, or if prescription drugs are needed.

You can scream all you want about how insurance and care aren't the same thing, but for people who go without insurance, it's just cruel to hear.

Clayton Hennesey said...

Will we be able to fix what is going on in healthcare without all the hysterics now?

No.

The problem with healthcare is that people use it. Demand drives up the price, but the price ends up getting paid by someone other than the medical consumer, so there's little incentive for health care consumers to use health care only as needed and to put pressure on their medical providers to render health care as efficiently and cheaply as possible.

The current health care system will continue to become ever more third-and-fourth-party-inflation bloated - more government entitlement funding simply exacerbates this trend - until the system finally ruptures, after which the wealthy will continue to be able to afford what they need while the proles will be forced to make do.

The only real cure - not politically possible - is to repeal EMTALA and other safety nets and to let people who have not made their personal health care their highest life priority (over the latest iPhone, etc.) begin to die. Only then might consumers at large begin to focus on the roots of the problem: the care, cost and delivery relationship between the medical provider and the medical consumer.

I may actually have picked this link up here (thanks,____). Regardless, it's instructive.

https://www.conservativereview.com/articles/its-time-for-single-payer-the-consumer-to-provider

Chuck said...

Okay; here is what Trump has said about health care:

https://www.thrillist.com/health/nation/donald-trump-health-care-obamacare-views

And here:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/trump-obamacare-promises-236021

And here:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/24/politics/trump-health-care-promises/

And here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-likely-to-break-many-of-his-health-care-promises--no-matter-what-happens/2017/06/25/f39d192a-581c-11e7-b38e-35fd8e0c288f_story.html?utm_term=.bfb1984fbe65

I'm not claiming any ideological purity on this. Politicians make promises. Trump just happens to be unusually crude and sociopathically deceptive in his role as a semi-pro politician.

And as I further said, I'd be okay with McCain breaking any promises and voting to screw Trump simply on the basis of personal payback. For all of the old insults. But that's just me.

Trump is president. He's got to figure it out for himself. And since he's pissed off just about everybody in Washington, he's not going to have much help.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Jason said...McCain did a favor for the GOP. Skinny repeal was worse than the ACA, BY FAR. And would have been hung like an albatross around Republicans' necks.

That's about where I am, too--the Repubs should have had a plan they could pass ready to go, but failing that they'd be stupid to pass some half-assed bill that would allow the Media to blame Repubs for all of Obamacare's continuing problems and failures.
The news schizophrenia on the subject is getting harder and harder to sustain--on the one hand insisting that Obamacare's great, it was a great bill that "gave healthcare" to millions, that it's well-loved, etc and on the other hand insisting that if desperate fixes aren't put in place now all of America's health is in jeopardy, etc. I really want to believe that it won't be possible to continue pushing both narratives at once--some Dems have lately even been talking about how badly "fixes" are needed...but then I remember the last few years and my cynicism wins again.

Anyway from a purely political POV I think you're right.

Tregonsee said...

John McCain and Hillary Clinton have little in common, but they both were convinced that they were owed the presidency. Clinton is gone from the Senate, but McCain is still there and willing to take out his ire on those who rejected him.

Unknown said...

Never forget: Chuck literally orgasmed in this thread at the thought of screwing over the Republican base. He couldn't orgasm enough at McCain delivering a victory to Chuck Schumer.

He is jumping up and down with glee at the idea that the tens of millions of Americans stuck with Obamacare are still stuck with it. He loves the death panels. He loves the ruinously high premiums. He loves the punitive, "We are taxing you for breathing and you'll like it!" part of it. He loves the idea of Nancy Pelosi's gavel.

Chuck, you are no Republican. You are a traitor. Since you like government run health care so much, go to North Korea and praise the Kim family. Hey, they might like you. Take McCain with you too. And Collins, and Murkowski. You say, "What did they promise?" as if they are the Republican party. They are treasonous liberals and you and your GOPe bear 100% complete responsibility for Obamacare and its failures. You, Chuck. You gleefully gutted the best chance of getting government out of our health care, and you think it's a wonderful thing. Screw you. Screw McCain. Washington and Jefferson would have shot you on sight for your positions, along with hanging McCain from the nearest lamp post. We all know it, and you and they would deserve every bit of it for betraying America and the values it was founded on to turn our country into a socialist hellhole that you clearly want.

--Vance

Brookzene said...

Never forget: Chuck literally orgasmed in this thread at the thought of screwing over the Republican base. He couldn't orgasm enough at McCain delivering a victory to Chuck Schumer.

Really? Literally? It's a little early to have all that sex on the brain, innit Wally?

Brookzene said...

Washington and Jefferson would have shot you on sight for your positions, along with hanging McCain from the nearest lamp post.

Whoosh! Get out of the way!! That orgasm is gonna hit alla ya all!

sunsong said...

"Who is the happiest of men? He who values the
merits of others, and in their pleasure takes joy,
even as though 'twere his own."


~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Marty Keller said...

The real culprits in this Greek tragedy are we, the American citizenry, who have been enabling reality denial for decades with our instructions to our political leaders to give us goodies and find someone else to pay for them.

It is easy to get high on other people's money. It's the same stupid con we have been falling for since the days of Comrade Lenin. And like the hapless people in Putin's thugocracy and Chavez' corpse of a country, the outcome of this childish belief in the tooth fairy is always the same.

Many people voted for Trump because we realized that the GOPe was as in on the deal as the Democrats; that both parties are now in the midst of full scale civil wars is indicative of the real problem. The republic created by our Founders and reinvigorated by Lincoln and the original GOP is dead. Whether it can be revived is the issue at hand.

And that can only happen through the instrumentality of a mass political movement that, like French voters did, fires both wings of the establishment party. The Trump vote--like the Perot vote decades earlier--merely indicates the possibility of such an emergence. Trump was never going to be anything more than the disrupter that hastened the break-up of the "progressive"/rent-seeker axis that was already coming unglued.

Unknown said...

Further, Chuck: you openly admit how despicable you are. You claim to be a Republican. You openly claim that it's a good thing to destroy the credibility and integrity of the Republican party who promised to repeal Obamacare, so as to hurt Trump. Hurting hundreds of millions of Americans is great for you as long as you hurt Trump. Who cares about death panels telling American citizens they are going to die because of rationing--those Americans will die happy because Trump got hurt politically!

Despicable, miserable little worm that you are. I propose we tax the GOPe to pay for all our health care costs. Hey, it will hurt Trump, right? You can cheerfully pay a 100% tax. That's the plan you endorsed: tax people for other people's health care. Pony up, Chuck. Get ready to open your wallet. But a guy like you with such a burning hatred of Trump should be happy to be bankrupted to support the "Get Trump at any cost imaginable!" platform, right? Who cares if we turn into the Soviet Union... as long as we get Trump! That's the new Chuck plan: Turn America in to the Soviet Union so we can send Trump to the gulag! Everyone else's rights are expendable!

--Vance

Chuck said...

What a fucked up week this has been for you, Vance.

Big loser on "Repeal Obamacare."

Lindsey Graham says flat out that if Mueller is removed without cause, it will be the beginning of the end of the Trump Administration.

Scaramuuci embarrasses the White House with his cock-sucking quotes.

Congress goes out of its way to Trump-proof a Russia sanctions bill.

Every conservative in America sides with Jeff Sessions, versus Trump.

Sean Hannity's sudden denial of the William F. Buckley Jr. Award melts down Twitter.

The Hannity-Guilfoyle dinner at the White House is exposed.

And the transgender/military kerfuffle is handled so badly by Trump that even Althouse questions the president.

God damn, I hope next week is as good as this one.

--Chuck

Unknown said...

Brookzene: why don't you be quiet until you can decide you are against gunning down Republicans. You actively promoted violence against Republicans, though I presume you love McCain right now. No one has forgotten your refusal to condemn gunning down Republicans in cold blood. You are irretrievably tainted by that.

As for orgasming, read Chuck's first post in this thread. It was clearly one of those. Just like when your Democrat made up dossier was released, Chuck was acting the same way. He's never happy unless America is losing.

--Vance

sunsong said...

McCain did a favor for the GOP. Skinny repeal was worse than the ACA, BY FAR. And would have been hung like an albatross around Republicans' necks.

Wow, we are very close to agreement here :-)

Brookzene said...

You actively promoted violence against Republicans, though I presume you love McCain right now.

ROFLMAO! WTf are you talking about? You'll say anything to get yourself hot, won't you?

Earnest Prole said...

Health-care reform is dead. Now attention shifts to how Republicans will fuck up immigration and tax reform.

Gahrie said...

Establishment republicans screw the pooch...again.... so of course Chuck launches an attack on Trump......

Brookzene said...

Hey, Vance. Tell us you don't ACTIVELY support dropping NUCLEAR BOMBS on NEGROES in the south? Otherwise you actively support it.

Donkey logic from Vance.

Unknown said...

Yes, Chuck, this has been a great week for you. When the American people lose, you always call it a good week, don't you? You would call a week where the Capitol tells the provinces to suck it a good week. What's next, setting up a dome to force the states to send sacrificial victims for your amusement? As long as that big government gets to stomp on the peasants, you love love love it.

I'll bet you will blame Trump if Sessions comes out and arrests Fusion GPS for selling secrets to Russia or the Ukraine, won't you? You won't be happy. Not like you are deliriously happy now.

Hey, I bet you are upset Steve Scalise got out of the hospital, just like Brookzene, right Chuck? That was a big downer for you. The fly in the ointment of your week.

--Vance

Brookzene said...

No one will EVER forget how Vance refused to say dropping nuclear bombs on the Negroes in the south was wrong. He actively supports violence, murder, genocide and racism.

We won't forget this, buddy!

Unknown said...

No, Brookzene: you were repeatedly and directly invited to say: "I condemn shooting Republicans". You refused, repeatedly, to say it. That's on record. As for your dropping nuclear bombs on negros on the south, why would I want to do that? Of course I oppose that. I'm sure you don't, though. Those Negros don't like gays, after all. And they don't like illegal immigrants. And they are Christians, and southerners. You are much, much more likely to support nuking them.

--Vance

Brookzene said...

Oh my God, please let me stop trolling Vance. I know it's wrong but he's so dumb and so weak.

TestTube said...

I admire and respect John McCain, even if I don't always agree with him. I wish he had won in 2008.

One vote, or even a number of votes, aren't going to change that. Especially this vote, on a "skinny" repeal, which doesn't really seem like that much of a repeal.

Nor am I really expecting too much from the Republicans for the next year.

It is not just John McCain that caused this bill to fail. Sure, we had hoped that Congress could deliver a simple repeal. But we were wrong. This is going to be a long hard slog.

Gahrie said...

And as I further said, I'd be okay with McCain breaking any promises and voting to screw Trump simply on the basis of personal payback. For all of the old insults. But that's just me.

Spoken like a true member of the Republican Establishment. Fuck over the Republican base for any reason at all.

rcocean said...

"It is clear that any serious attempt to improve our health care system must begin with a full repeal and replacement of Obamacare, and I will continue fighting on behalf of the people of Arizona to achieve it."

McCain has been lying to conservatives forever. And they keep giving him a pass.

McCrazy lied through his teeth about supporting a border wall ("just build the dang fence"). He lied about Roe vs. Wade in 2000. He lied about his changing his mind and opposing Amnesty in 2008. He lied about supporting the Confederate flag. He lied about supporting "Scalia Type Judges". Every time he runs for office, he tosses out some boob bait, and the Republican dummies swallow it.

I could go on and on.

But what can you say about "Conservatives" anymore? Kristol, Goldberg, National Review, Beck, Erick erickson, etc. all were fine with Hillary getting elected!

Brookzene said...

No, Brookzene: you were repeatedly and directly invitestd to say: "I condemn shooting Republicans". You refused, repeatedly, to say it. That's on record.

Oh, Christ, I didn't realize that was on the record. What do I do now? Last time I trust a reporter.

Of course, now everyone knows I'm an advocate for violence against Republicans...jeeeeezzz.

Darrell said...

Brookzene, who doesn't know the difference between North Korea and North Vietnam. If one of Ritmo's turds became sentient. . .

rcocean said...

This wasn't a surprise to anyone who follows McCain.

When he *doesn't* stab his fellow Republicans in the back - now that's a surprise.

David Baker said...

Browndog said... "All McCain did was provide political cover for the handful of other rats and liars that wanted to vote no. It wasn't going to pass no matter what."

Precisely. Thus he was designated to cast the deciding vote. The ol' maverick acting "badly." Nonsense, because there were 26 other RINOs who would've stepped in.

rcocean said...

Why is everyone talking about the "Republican Congress" failing?

The House DID NOT fail. The SENATE failed. Specially, 7 Republican Senators.

Is it ever possible for Republicans, instead of making generalities, to take names and go kick their butts?

MikeD said...

The Founders were 100% correct, Senators should be chosen by their state's legislatures!

Brookzene said...

If one of Ritmo's turds became sentient. . .

I don't know who this Ritmo guy is but I think we know who is one of Trump's turds...Darrell.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Mary Keller said...And that can only happen through the instrumentality of a mass political movement that, like French voters did, fires both wings of the establishment party. The Trump vote--like the Perot vote decades earlier--merely indicates the possibility of such an emergence. Trump was never going to be anything more than the disrupter that hastened the break-up of the "progressive"/rent-seeker axis that was already coming unglued.

Pretty close, Mary. The hastag you'll want is #BTFSTTG.
Unfortunately, though, it's more likely that the backlash against our current crop of ineffective big-government statists will push more people towards a populist who promises even bigger government, more free stuff, etc.
I can't tell you how to convince people to NOT follow the example of solid nations who allowed an embrace of more and more socialism to destroy them. The nice centrist people always seem to find the sales pitch of the Left and Media convincing--who could be against giving free healthcare to cute babies, of free nursing care for dear ol' grandma, and so on?!
Even within my cynical understanding that burning the system to the ground is the only way to go I can't pretend that it's not more likely that the ultimate result would be a more-Leftist nation. Sad. (Truly.)

Michael said...

That grandstanding won't stop it. The black swan is already nested within.
"But at the total emptiness of for ever,
The sure extinction that we travel to
And shall be lost in always. Not to be here,
Not to be anywhere,
And soon; nothing more terrible, nothing more true."
-Philip Larkin

Unknown said...

Rcocean, I'll bite. Who can we depend on in the Senate? Cruz, Lee, Paul. After those three, who are we dead certain would vote for the base instead of being mavericks if their vote would defeat a Democrat priority? Inhofe and Sasso?

We can't count on Blunt, or any of the traitorous 7. Cochran? Hatch? Probably at least half of the current Republicans would jump to the Democrats if they could.

Meanwhile, we have Manchin from the other side.... maybe. On a good day. Why don't the left ever have people coming over to the Right? Why is it Chucks extreme pleasure that only Republicans sell out their base?

--Vance

Darrell said...

Repeating back what others say about you, Brookzene. What are you five? Go back to HuffPo.

buwaya said...

The recent 60 minutes interview with Eric Cantor pretty much finalizes the picture of the establishment faction of the GOP, which is that old guard of Graham and McCain. Health insurance votes are the least of it. It is the attitude, the ethic, and the interests behind it all. It all comes out in the interview- it is no accident, I think, that Mr. Cantor is now working for a financial firm dealing with an upcoming IPO by Aramco. These are the rewards for loyalty.

harrogate said...

One big problem the GOP faces is that they cannot just come out and say what many commenters here, say. They cannot say "if you cannot afford health insurance, them's the breaks. You should have played the game better."

They cannot say that, so they have to go through all this theater instead.

Brookzene said...

As for your dropping nuclear bombs on negros on the south, why would I want to do that? Of course I oppose that.

Okay, okay, Vance. You got me. You don't support that, you said so. Hmmm...

What about going through the pockets of schoolchildren at bus stops in Kansas to take away their school lunch money? Hmmm? You are expressly invited to condemn THAT, you bigshot. And if you don't? Well, we know exactly where you stand on arresting poor children in Kansas on their way to school to take their lunch money for your own nefarious ends. Go ahead. Condemn it or forever on Althouse be known as someone who actively promotes it.

Think you you're gonna outsmart me bitch! Ha! I don't think so.

narayanan said...

prediction for the future??!!

https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/trump-dynasty-luttwak/

Brookzene said...

@Darrell What are you, five?

Brookzene said...

"if you cannot afford health insurance, them's the breaks. You should have played the game better."

That is the message. Spot on.

Lucien said...

Well, since the Affordable Care Act is Obama's crowning legislative achievement and the salient piece of his "legacy", and the Republicans haven't changed it at all, we'll just get a chance to see how it works out, won't we?

And notice how the "professionals" in DC, who have supposedly been preparing for this for seven years, did such a bang-up job on this legislation thing.

President Trump can point out how useless the permanent inhabitants of the Swamp are, and also tar the Democrats when the Affordable Care Act crashes and burns. What's not to like, from his point of view?

harrogate said...

Yeah, that's the message. But they know they cannot make that their official platform. They have to lie. They have no choice.

Chuck said...

David Baker said...
Browndog said... "All McCain did was provide political cover for the handful of other rats and liars that wanted to vote no. It wasn't going to pass no matter what."

Precisely. Thus he was designated to cast the deciding vote. The ol' maverick acting "badly." Nonsense, because there were 26 other RINOs who would've stepped in.

That makes three of us.

I'll skip the "RINO" epithet; but I completely agree. If they had needed ten more votes to kill the bill, there would have been ten more Republican moderates. Dean Heller would have been last on the list. He's up for reelection in '18.


Howard said...

With all the sexual and violent content being vomited up by Trumpsters, the conclusion is simple: they are telling the world they are impotent cowards. That's why their wives "go to Tiffany's" while they play golf with their fellow cucks.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

"Really? Literally? It's a little early to have all that sex on the brain, innit Wally?"

Yes Brookzene,literally. You see, he was watching the vote along with his sexual partner Palmula Handerson, and between the excitement of seeing the conserative base get stabbed in the back and Palmula's simultaneous dalliance with another man, Lifelong Cuck, literally orgasmed.

Birches said...

Perhaps I'm not sufficiently plugged in, but I can't see what the big deal is. I don't really trust Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan to make a good bill in committee, so I guess I agree with McCain. Pass real legislation, not crap done in some backroom.

Mac McConnell said...

Chuck said...
Mac McConnell said...
McStain will be dead and Trump will still be President. Midway through President Trumps second term Air Force One will be descending on Alaska.

Well, by 2022, President Trump -- the great, visionary dealmaker -- will have healthcare reform all figured out, right? Trumpcare will be in place, and it will be great, right? Great care, lowered prices; that's what Trump said, right?

Trump didn't get elected to end Obamacare, the Republicans in both houses of Congress did. Trump got elected to solve the immigration border problem and pack the courts, he's doing stellar.

McStain is a congential liar, go to u-tube and watch his last campaign ads. He's going to save the country from Obamacare. I'll give him credit for his five years in a POW camp, but the rest of his service record pretty much dog shit. If his father and grandfather weren't admirals he would would have been washed out of flight school.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

I think we can make too much of this vote. It took the Democrats 14 months to get Obamacare through Congress. Listening to Schumer last night, he admitted that Obamacare needs changes. And he talked as though he is ready to negotiate. Trump has been saying for months that Democrats will have to come to the table if Republicans wait them out.

Mac McConnell said...

"Pass real legislation, not crap done in some backroom."

Sure, because McStain has never been involved in that, Gang of Fucking Eight!

John said...

Thank you John McCain!

You were a shitty naval officer, a shitty senator and a shitty presidential candidate.

But in this shining moment, I salute you.

All of these Obamacare "repeal" bills have been just the opposite. They kept Obamacare alive. Absent some sort of fix, it is dead. It is still thrashing around shitting all over decent Americans but it is dead.

If the Congress doesn't have the decency to kill it outright and put us all out of its misery, this is the next best thing.

In a year or two we will all be saying "Remember Obamacare? What a clusterfuck that used to be. Thank God it is gone"

Someone called this health care reform circus Kabukakke. Damn well said, sir or madam. I'd credit you if I remembered who you were. (I want to say Laslo but that seems too obvious)

John Henry

Bay Area Guy said...

McCain voted to repeal Obamacare several times in the past.

His vote, this time, when it mattered is weak.

His explanation for his vote is even weaker.

John said...

A caveat to my comment about McCain:

His conduct as a POW was honorable and exemplary. All credit goes to him there.

His performance as a naval aviator and officer was distinctly sub-par. He would not have gotten into Annapolis if not for who his father and grandfather were. Ditto his post Annapolis performance. Anyone else would have told to seek other employment.

John Henry

CWJ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

For the record, I note that Brookzene is the one who supports Democrats stealing lunch money from kids. And how does he support that? By shutting down children lemonade stands for not having business licenses or food handling permits (which are illegal for kids to get anyway as they are unable to contract). Of course I oppose Brookzene's "steal from children" scheme.

But I would like to point out here in his or her "Let's think of something random to accuse people of" that the question of shooting Republicans was not a random story; it actually happened. The question was a relevant one because it was big news that a Bernie Sanders supporter and campaign worker was gunning down Republican congressmen. Of course it's appropriate to ask other Bernie Sanders supporters what they think of it. After all, Every Republican in the world was asked about Christine O'Donnell. So it's only fair to ask Democrats about their support of gunning down Republicans.

Funny, the only leftist on this site--the only one! -- who said it was wrong was sunsong. Every other liberal/leftist poster either justified it or repeatedly declined to condemn it. Brookzene was merely one of the many who refused to say that shooting Republicans was wrong. I think Chuck said it was wrong, but who knows with him--if it makes Trump look bad, he'd put on a cheerleading uniform and wave the pom poms as Republicans were gunned down. Still, even if he said it was wrong then he is palling around with people who think it's a-ok to shoot Republicans in cold blood. Brookzene, even though you support killing Republicans, I suppose you should be comforted that you are not alone.

--Vance

tcrosse said...

Somebody has been spending tons of money on TV Ad buys to pressure Dean Heller (R-NV) to Save Our Health Care. Where is all the money coming from, and what deep-pocket entity benefits bigly from Obamacare ?

Chuck said...

After all, Every Republican in the world was asked about Christine O'Donnell.

If we didn't have any candidates like Christine O'Donnell, or Sharron Angle, or Todd Akin, or Donald Trump, or Kid Rock, we wouldn't have such questions. They are mostly losers anyway; Trump just lucked into the worst Democrat in two generations, at the very most opportune time.

The Cracker Emcee Activist said...

"Don't think Trump doesn't share ownership of this loss."

In the long game, I don't think this hurts Trump at all. Definitely bad for the Republicans in Congress but, if they lose their majority in the midterms, then that just makes Trump a bulwark against Dem insanity. Trump gets re-elected in a walk.

harrogate said...

CWJ,

I appreciate the comment and many of your comments. My use of "scream" was misplaced. I apologize for that.

But, while myself and my immediate family have fairly good insurance through work now, it was not always thus. It wasn't so long ago that I had to have surgery for a smashed ankle, and had no health insurance, and very near had to declare bankruptcy for it.

And still I have many family members and friends who go without coverage. I am from the rural south, so mostly Republicans I am talking about. My brother did lose everything about ten years ago because of a line drive to the face in a rec league softball game. He is only just now getting back on his feet. And he's lucky to be able to do so even now.

It ought not to be this way.

I never pretended to have all the answers on this complex issue. But I believe we should try and cover as many people as possible, regardless of how much money they make. And it looks to me like the GOP wants to chip away at safety nets rather than expand them to more people. I am often in the minority of the American population on economic issues, and I recognize that. But I do think that in this case, I'm speaking something with which a plurality of American citizens can identify and sympathize.

Brookzene said...

@Vance, you clown. You cannot even see how stupid your clever little trap. "I will demand that you accede to some basic principle of humanity, and when you ignore me because of your disdain for me I can claim that you actively support the opposite!"

How childish do you want to be?

No, Brookzene: you were repeatedly and directly invited to say: "I condemn shooting Republicans". You refused, repeatedly, to say it. That's on record.

You should be scared how stupid you must be to write stuff like this even in front of people who support your political beliefs. A child can see through this.

You actively promoted violence against Republicans, though I presume you love McCain right now. No one has forgotten your refusal to condemn gunning down Republicans in cold blood.

I especially LOVE the "No one has forgotten your refusal to condemn gunning down Republicans in cold blood." LOL. You think you're speaking in front of the United Nations or something? No one actually knows wtf you are talking about - except maybe Darrell.

Please, dude. Don't be a total dick. If you don't know how to argue your side than gtfoh.

mockturtle said...

My limited understanding of the health care legislation indicates that the insurance companies would be the only real winners, in the form of increased subsidies. Rand Paul has better ideas but no one is listening,

mccullough said...

Obamacare was never going to be repealed. The individual market will collapse without the government funding insurance companies to offer policies. So the government will pay them to offer policies. States will continue to offer Medicaid and most health care providers will continue to avoid Medicaid patients. Just keep running up the debt. That's what the GOP and Dems do

Brookzene said...

Brookzene was merely one of the many who refused to say that shooting Republicans was wrong. I think Chuck said it was wrong, but who knows with him--if it makes Trump look bad, he'd put on a cheerleading uniform and wave the pom poms as Republicans were gunned down.

Seriously, someone take this joker out of here - he's had it. What's scary is you really believe you are scoring a debate point. You're not doing it just to be annoying, you really think you're making a valid argument.

Kevin said...

Just to be clear: Democrats no longer hate McCain and want him to go somewhere and die?

Because the vitriol was up to 11 before the vote.

harrogate said...

FTR,

I condemned the shooting of the Republican congressman. I condemn political violence across the board.

CWJ said...

Fair enough. But I would ask why you, and many family members and friends would go without coverage? Why would you or anyone with the actual means to purchase coverage go bare when the consequences are so dire? Ironically, Obamacare has produced more expensive while at the same time less usable products. If anything, making the temptation to go bare even greater, while burdening those who have responsibly covered themselves all along.

The Cracker Emcee Activist said...

The fascinating thing about the current state of political play is that no one truly knows where we're at and what the electoral consequences of any given action might be. There is so much noise, dissonance, and hysteria, the MSM has so little credibility, that the feedback loop is completely trashed. Interesting times.

CWJ said...

Oops, It seems I had deleted my earlier comment (for editing) before seeing that Harrogate responded to it. I'm sorry for that, but think Harrogate's helpful reply stands on its own.

Howard said...

The end result will be a democrat approved fine-tune to Obozo Care signed by the the cuck in chief and willingly swallowed by all you teabaggers. With so much winning, you won't be able to sit down.

Brookzene said...

FTR,

I'm not responding to anyone's demands that I condemn anything just so they can change the subject or keep me from pressing my argument. I know a dumbass huckster's trick when I see it.

Although it's evident Vance doesn't see it as a "trick" - he thinks that's one of Aristotle's rules of debate.

Known Unknown said...

"It wasn't so long ago that I had to have surgery for a smashed ankle, and had no health insurance, and very near had to declare bankruptcy for it."

Why do you think that is?

harrogate said...

Why did I go without coverage? Because I was a line cook for most of my twenties and the places I cooked didn't offer insurance. I didn't have the cultural capital at the time to figure out where to go, what to do, to get a better job. I knew nothing of investing (and still know very little about that). It wasn't a "choice" to go bare, it was me doing the best I could at the time.

Ditto the others I referenced, including my brother.


You know, I've known people who have busted their asses at jobs their whole lives and just barely made it the whole time. Not everyone has the talent, the luck, and the know-how to embody the vaunted bootstrap narrative. Most Americans do the best they can to support themselves and their families tho, regardless of political allegiance. I have no doubt more than a few people you care for flash before your mind as you read these sentences.

And what about those vilified people who are "lazy"? Even they, I believe, ought to be able to get regular checkups at the doctor and such, in a truly great nation.

How do we accomplish that? I don't exactly know, but Paul Ryan's "bootstrap" ideology doesn't cut it as far as I am concerned.

Known Unknown said...

"Why did I go without coverage? "

Not the question I asked. Why is it so expensive to fix a busted ankle?

The Cracker Emcee Activist said...

"The end result will be a democrat approved fine-tune to Obozo Care signed by the the cuck in chief and willingly swallowed by all you teabaggers. With so much winning, you won't be able to sit down."

Except, realistically, that won't happen. ACA is dying on it's own, and no one faction has the power or will to kill it prematurely or to save it.

harrogate said...

Known Unknown,

I was responding to another commenter.

I don't know the answer to your question. Unlike a lot of people these days, I don't pretend to be an expert on health care.

Known Unknown said...

"Even they, I believe, ought to be able to get regular checkups at the doctor and such, in a truly great nation."

Why should insurance cover a check up? Why is a checkup expensive enough to demand insurance coverage?

readering said...

The way I see it everyone agreed the Senate bill was an abomination but McCain did not trust Ryan in conference not to do Trump's bidding and pass it unchanged just so Trump could claim a win. Meanwhile all Trump thinks about is Sessions and Reince.

harrogate said...

Known Unknown,

I have a feeling you lay full blame for the costs upon government. Am I to understand that you think if government just got out entirely, and left everyone to sink or swim on their own, that checkups would be affordable to the poor? Reconstructive facial surgeries ? The kinds of procedures like McCain just had?

Tell me more of this libertarian utopia to which you seem to keep gesturing.

Brookzene said...

One of the very admirable things about conservatives is the attitude (when they actually have it and practice it) that they take personal responsibility for themselves at all costs. That's something I aspire to myself. But I don't expect or demand that everyone does or should.

Known Unknown said...

Harro-

Didn't realize you were a mind reader!

I think the problem is we ask the wrong types of questions. We ask why people can't afford health care instead of asking why health care is so expensive.

The other issue is that frankly, health care is not a commodity product. We can't force it to be no matter how hard we try. We have a finite number of health care resources. Until we can clone doctors and nurses that won't change.

I don't have a solution right now. I just would like to ask different questions to try and figure out better answers.

rehajm said...

Don't count on Obamacare failing right away. Insurers will continue to be able to raise premiums, deductibles and co-pays for everyone in the system. Those eligible for subsidies won't feel the economic burden as the government will continue to subsidize. It's the over half of the people in Obamacare that don't get a subsidy who will bear the burden. 10-15% of their gross incomes will go to premiums but who cares? Democrats are doing just fine pretending these Deplorables don't exist.

Republicans will debate if government can afford to reduce the penalties for people who don't buy insurance because there are no insurers participating in their marketplace. Get us the CBO score!!!

cubanbob said...

If Trump was evil and brilliant he would simply eliminate all waivers to Obamacare immediately and not fund any insurance companies subsidy that was not specifically budgeted by Congress. Then ignore all the screams until he gets the rest of his agenda passed.

brylun said...

Chuck, just for the record, not only did Trump beat Clinton, but 16 other Republicans including Jeb Bush and his $110 million.

harrogate said...

Known Unkown,

Fair enough. I'd like to know answers to the questions you are asking, as well. And would prefer those answers not be rendered as though they perfectly vindicate any conventional political viewpoint, since invariably the truth isn't going to do that.

And agree fully re your commodity product comment

Yancey Ward said...

McCain's vote has nothing to do with Trump in any way. Last night's vote was McCain's revenge on Mitch McConnell, but he had to stab almost every other Republican in the back to do it, and this was his plan all along when he made the dramatic return to the Senate to cast the vote to open the floor to amendments.

I have written it before, though- the Republican leadership should have made a clean decision in January to either do nothing about the ACA and let the exchanges collapse, which is going to happen, or go for a clean repeal within the first couple of weeks of the session. Like Republicans seem to do on a regular basis, though, they tried to walk down the middle of the highway and ended up as roadkill.

And to Chuck- no, Trump's supporters won't primary anyone, they are just likely to stay home and sit on their hands in 2018. Let the Never-Trumpers try to hold the House and the Senate by themselves.

Chuck said...

And to Chuck- no, Trump's supporters won't primary anyone, they are just likely to stay home and sit on their hands in 2018. Let the Never-Trumpers try to hold the House and the Senate by themselves.

2018 is a mid-term. It's the Democrats who are supposed to stay home during mid-term elections.

It would be a pretty great election, without any Democrats and without the EverTrumpers.

But if you think that somehow driving Republicans to defeat via low turnout is a good idea, then we have some fundamental disagreements. Hell, even I voted for Trump as opposed to the Democrat.

Kevin said...

"Let the Never-Trumpers try to hold the House and the Senate by themselves."

While they go on tv to demand party loyalty.

Mac McConnell said...

cubanbob said...
"If Trump was evil and brilliant he would simply eliminate all waivers to Obamacare immediately and not fund any insurance companies subsidy that was not specifically budgeted by Congress. Then ignore all the screams until he gets the rest of his agenda passed."

Agreed and cancel Congress' fictional "small business" wavier exempting them from Obamacare.

Yancey Ward said...

And you are likely going to get a repeat performance by the Republicans in the tax reform area- it is now all but certain they will pass nothing there either. What I sense from the Republicans in Congress is that they seem to think time is on their side here- it isn't. Their majorities are only safe in 2018 if they have actual accomplishments to run on in 2018, and right now there is only Gorsuch in that ledger. That isn't nearly enough to turn out the base to vote in an off-year election, and no one is going to believe promises about repealing the ACA and passing tax reform after this year.

Kevin said...

"But if you think that somehow driving Republicans to defeat via low turnout is a good idea, then we have some fundamental disagreements."

Lifelong Republicans publicly campaigned and voted for the Democrat. You're going through take offense at people staying home?

The Republican Party ended with Romney's defeat. The only question is what takes its place.

mccullough said...

Yep. Tax reform isn't getting done either. Trump's got the gold pen and phone and Twitter. Congress can ramp up for next year's baseball game, which is fine. They've done enough damage already.

Achilles said...

Brookzene said...

I especially LOVE the "No one has forgotten your refusal to condemn gunning down Republicans in cold blood." LOL. You think you're speaking in front of the United Nations or something? No one actually knows wtf you are talking about - except maybe Darrell.

Please, dude. Don't be a total dick. If you don't know how to argue your side than gtfoh.


Brookzene said...
"if you cannot afford health insurance, them's the breaks. You should have played the game better."

That is the message. Spot on.

You think people that want to repeal Obamacare just want poor people to die without healthcare.

You never condemn violence against your political opponents.

You are going to be really unhappy when we start treating you like you treat us.

Yancey Ward said...

No, Chuck, I am not advocating they stay home, I am just telling you that is what is going to happen at the rate Congress is making progress today. That you are in this thread literally celebrating last night's debacle is just an indication to me how bad the shellacking is going to be in 2018 unless Congress gets its act together. Last night wasn't a defeat for Trump as you are trying to claim here- it is a defeat for the Republican leadership, and a devastating one. Right now there are a lot of base Republican voters wondering why it even matters who controls the House and Senate since the Republicans can't seem to get any of their signature promises on legislation passed despite holding majorities in both houses.

The majorities are in jeopardy in 2018. Last night was a debacle for McConnell and Ryan.

Known Unknown said...

"Fair enough. I'd like to know answers to the questions you are asking, as well. And would prefer those answers not be rendered as though they perfectly vindicate any conventional political viewpoint, since invariably the truth isn't going to do that."

I think the questions and answers fall outside of any conventional political viewpoint. Sadly, most don't see that as so.

mccullough said...

The GOP ended with W's presidency. Both parties believe in big government debt spending and incompetence.

Achilles said...

harrogate said...

But, while myself and my immediate family have fairly good insurance through work now, it was not always thus. It wasn't so long ago that I had to have surgery for a smashed ankle, and had no health insurance, and very near had to declare bankruptcy for it.

Right now my wife and I have the best health care plan I have heard of Our deductible/premiums add up to $6000 per year and it is 80-90% after that.

My brother has $13,000 before he gets 80%.

Obamacare is merely a way to make insurance companies rich. We get no real coverage out of it.

And still I have many family members and friends who go without coverage. I am from the rural south, so mostly Republicans I am talking about. My brother did lose everything about ten years ago because of a line drive to the face in a rec league softball game. He is only just now getting back on his feet. And he's lucky to be able to do so even now.

It ought not to be this way.


Even if they paid for coverage it would likely still be 5 digits before their health plan mitigated costs and most plans only cover 50-80% in those circumstances.

I never pretended to have all the answers on this complex issue. But I believe we should try and cover as many people as possible, regardless of how much money they make. And it looks to me like the GOP wants to chip away at safety nets rather than expand them to more people. I am often in the minority of the American population on economic issues, and I recognize that. But I do think that in this case, I'm speaking something with which a plurality of American citizens can identify and sympathize.

The left bleats platitudes about coverage and wants more subsidies to pay for health care is too expensive.

Is it possible that you people are so stupid you don't understand that subsidies drive up the price and destroy market efficiency?

Achilles said...

Yancey Ward said...

Right now there are a lot of base Republican voters wondering why it even matters who controls the House and Senate since the Republicans can't seem to get any of their signature promises on legislation passed despite holding majorities in both houses.

I am in congressional district 8 in Washington State. Robert Reichert is my congressman.

I am going to make sure there is a Republican on the ballot in this district that will not be a lying piece of shit.

Joe said...

Truth is that this bill was complete shit, terribly in every respect. It was worthy of Harry Reid. Yet the same people critical of the Reid--just pass the shit I tell you to--approach are suddenly in support of it.

Further, Trump didn't give a rat's ass about this bill. He never spoke in any substantive way on it. He didn't meet with senators. He didn't care; he just wanted something to sign. Had he even remotely cared, he wouldn't have, through proxies, threatened retribution on those who don't follow his vague, ever-changing, policies. (Make no mistake, I prefer Trump over Clinton, but have no delusion that he's a good, hell even adequate, president and politician.)

Finally; what, exactly, do Republicans dislike about Obamacare? The failure to give a precise argument is ultimately what failed here. Is it the individual mandate? Is it the mandated coverages? What, specifically?

mockturtle said...

Known Unknown asks: Why should insurance cover a check up? Why is a checkup expensive enough to demand insurance coverage?



IIRC, it has been shown that the old 'annual checkup' has no correlation with health outcome.

I would like to see more walk-in clinics, maybe in Walmarts, fee for service, no insurance accepted. And if health care is being run like a business, which it is, let's have some competitive pricing.

MayBee said...

. It wasn't so long ago that I had to have surgery for a smashed ankle, and had no health insurance, and very near had to declare bankruptcy for it.

It seems like nobody is listening to people actually on the Obamacare exchanges.
As Achilles says, the premiums are high, as are the deductibles.
So if you don't have $7,000 per year per person to pay out of pocket for any procedures, you're going to be in financial trouble.

There are a lot of oddities when it comes to signing up. If you miss the open enrollment period, you are out for the rest of the year. If you don't realize you have to sign up for a new plan within 60 days of a life change, you are out for the rest of the year.

If you are in business for yourself, and you are pretty new at it, you have to make a SWAG about how much you'll make for the year to see if there are subsidies, and if it's wrong, you have to pay it back.

People who have insurance through their employers just don't get it.

mockturtle said...

I am going to make sure there is a Republican on the ballot in this district that will not be a lying piece of shit.

Achilles, you will need to start working on a questionnaire to weed out lying pieces of shit. It will have to be a tricky one, too, as these LPOS' tend to lie glibly and with sincerity. Eliminate lawyers altogether and you will be well ahead.

Joe said...

"Right now my wife and I have the best health care plan I have heard of Our deductible/premiums add up to $6000 per year and it is 80-90% after that.

My brother has $13,000 before he gets 80%.

Obamacare is merely a way to make insurance companies rich. We get no real coverage out of it."

Nonsense.

I have an Obamacare bronze plan and it's max out-of-pocket is $6500 per year. The total coverage is better than the plan you claim to have. A quick check would show that for all it's problems, what you can get through the marketplace not only isn't bad, many plans are identical to what you'd get through a job.

Next month, I'm switching from my Molina Marketplace bronze plan at $392 a month to a business paid plan, which is identical to a UHC silver plan which can be purchased through the Marketplace for about $470 a month.

Kevin said...

"He didn't meet with senators."

Bullshit. To take just one example, Rand Paul spoke about the many conversations and late-night phone calls he had with the President about what could be done with the bill to get his support.

There just was no BS, carefully-constructed photo op to demonstrate his engagement to Democrats and lifelong Republicans.

Yancey Ward said...

Joe,

I agree with you about the bill from last night- it was garbage. In my opinion, if you don't have the votes for a clean repeal, then it was always going to be best to do nothing at all and make it clear you weren't going to do anything right from the start of the session.

As for what one doesn't like about the ACA, I can only give you my personal answer. I think mandates for coverage are illegitimate intrusions on personal liberty. If you want to fund coverage for everyone, have the integrity to pass the necessary revenue bills and buy the policies directly if you are going to go through insurance companies at all. Additionally, the main problem with health care costs are on the supply side- and the ACA did nothing, literally nothing about that.

I am in the individual market, and eligible for the highest subsidy available on the ACA, and the policies are literally worth nothing to me because of the deductibles and copays are high and I consume no healthcare at all. And if someone were half my age (I am 51), it is even worse of a deal. It literally takes no imagination at all to understand why the exchanges are failing- you only buy a policy if there is a good chance the total costs out of pocket for the policy are less than the value of the care you expect to receive. The insurers are paying out more than they are taking in, and it will only get worse.

Chuck said...

Yancey Ward said...
No, Chuck, I am not advocating they stay home, I am just telling you that is what is going to happen at the rate Congress is making progress today. That you are in this thread literally celebrating last night's debacle is just an indication to me how bad the shellacking is going to be in 2018 unless Congress gets its act together. Last night wasn't a defeat for Trump as you are trying to claim here- it is a defeat for the Republican leadership, and a devastating one. Right now there are a lot of base Republican voters wondering why it even matters who controls the House and Senate since the Republicans can't seem to get any of their signature promises on legislation passed despite holding majorities in both houses.

The majorities are in jeopardy in 2018. Last night was a debacle for McConnell and Ryan.

Mitch McConnell just finished beating a Tea Party primary challenger, and then an extraordinarily well-funded general election opponent. He's not running again until 2020. And there's no sign of any challenge to his leadership. None. Mitch voted for the repeal bill, if it matters to you, and if it matters to Kentucky voters.

Paul Ryan was begged to put his name in for Speaker. And the House passed a very-Tea Party healthcare bill. So what's the gripe? What's the threat?

rehajm said...

Nonsense.

I have an Obamacare bronze plan and it's max out-of-pocket is $6500 per year. The total coverage is better than the plan you claim to have. A quick check would show that for all it's problems, what you can get through the marketplace not only isn't bad, many plans are identical to what you'd get through a job.


Fortunately nobody has to take anonymous Joe's word for it...Here's where to find the evidence so we can all avoid twisted anecdotes.

Achilles said...

Joe said...

Next month, I'm switching from my Molina Marketplace bronze plan at $392 a month to a business paid plan, which is identical to a UHC silver plan which can be purchased through the Marketplace for about $470 a month.

What subsidies do you get? Do you have any children? Wife?

I don't necessarily disbelieve you. But one thing that is obvious is the need to have an open market place. The Obamacare marketplace divides markets up by county and state. It creates monopolies in many places.

Just another reason Obamacare is set up to ake insurance companies rich.

Yancey Ward said...

The threat, Dumbass, is that they go from Majority Leader and House Speaker to Minority Leaders. This has literally nothing to do with tea parties and Trumpsters- it has to do with actual accomplishments and fulfillment of promises made to get those majorities in the houses. Right now, they are blowing it big time, and people will stay home in 2018 if they believe there is no point in voting to send them back.

Murph said...

"But I believe we should try and cover as many people as possible, regardless of how much money they make. And it looks to me like the GOP wants to chip away at safety nets rather than expand them to more people."

It's a standard tenet of economics that we do not have unlimited resources to allocate to our unlimited "wants." Resources are limited & therefore must be allocated (or "rationed") among our "wants."

Provision of health care (leave aside health insurance, mandated but unwanted policy items, and lack of price transparency, etc., for the while), which after all someone must pay for (and so is not a "right" as traditionally defined), must be rationed: the only question is how. There are three factors that interplay for health care provision: (i) quality of care (including timely access to care), (ii) cost of care, and (iii) number of beneficiaries. You can adopt criteria for any two of those at one time, but not all three. That third factor will respond negatively to manipulation of the other two. It's called tradeoff, and it's an inevitable effect.

If you expand the number of people with access to government-paid (or -subsidized) health care, you will inevitably either (a) increase the cost or (b) reduce the quality of care. If you hold either (a) or (b) constant, the third factor will react negatively.

And, "regardless of how much money they make" contradicts your claim of "safety nets." If I have enough money (either through present income or accumulated wealth) to buy some level of health insurance, but I choose to spend that money otherwise, why should some third party taxpayer subsidize that choice? I am not writing here of the human basic needs of shelter, food, and clothing (those are indeed "safety net" items, and if one truly cannot afford those, then yes, let's get them some level of health care.)

What are you willing to "give up" in order to expand provision of health care to more people, "regardless of how much money they make"?

This Blahous article targets pre-existing conditions, but generally fits the overall problem of provision of health care.
https://economics21.org/html/who-should-pay-cover-pre-existing-conditions-2327.html

harrogate said...


"IIRC, it has been shown that the old 'annual checkup' has no correlation with health outcome."


Regular Checkups are hand-in-hand with preventative medicine. If you wait until you're about to drop, that's when it's too late. I've seen this up close. So, in truth, has most everyone.

rehajm said...

Just another reason Obamacare is set up to (m)ake insurance companies rich.

Remember too, as premiums increase government bears the cost for those receiving subsidies so effectively it's taxpayers feeding the insurers, creating little incentive for insurers to work to reduce premiums.

Chuck said...

So as long as Dean Heller won't get blamed for a vote that would throw thousands of Nevadans off Medicare, how do you think the Republicans lose the Senate in 2018? What are the swing/change states?

And if you think the Dems are going to take back the House in 2018, you need to take a better look at the districts and the number of in-play districts.

You can thank Republican lawyers' work for about ten years (and the Tea Party vote of 2010 -- Thanks!!!) for that.

Murph said...

Ooops. Violated my own health "care v insurance" rule:

"If I have enough money (either through present income or accumulated wealth) to buy some level of health CARE AND/OR insurance, but I choose to spend that money otherwise, why should some third party taxpayer subsidize that choice?

HoodlumDoodlum said...

You can thank Republican lawyers' work for about ten years (and the Tea Party vote of 2010 -- Thanks!!!) for that.

Uh...do most LifeLongRepublicans repeat the Dem talking point that the reason for several cycles of Republican gains is due to unfair gerrymandering, done by "Republican lawyers' work?"
Maybe I hang out with the wrong Republicans or something, but that seems...odd.

harrogate said...

So the GOP doesn't benefit from gerrymandering in the House, Hoodlum?

Achilles said...

Chuck said...
So as long as Dean Heller won't get blamed for a vote that would throw thousands of Nevadans off Medicare, how do you think the Republicans lose the Senate in 2018? What are the swing/change states?



You can thank Republican lawyers' work for about ten years (and the Tea Party vote of 2010 -- Thanks!!!) for that.


No actual republican would say either of these things.

Achilles said...

harrogate said...
So the GOP doesn't benefit from gerrymandering in the House, Hoodlum?

There have been numerous attempts to show the house is only Republican because of Gerrymandering. They have all failed miserably. The real problem for democrats is they are concentrating themselves in small urban cloisters. All of the democrat districts are 80/20 and the republican districts are 60/40.

Just one example of how gerrymandering isn't the issue

2011 redistricting particularly had little to do with it.

There is nothing the democrats can do to win back the house as long as their platform is based on racial grievance, vote buying, and open borders.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

harrogate said...Regular Checkups are hand-in-hand with preventative medicine. If you wait until you're about to drop, that's when it's too late. I've seen this up close. So, in truth, has most everyone.

Sure, it makes perfect sense, and one of the big selling points of Obamacare was that some of the "free stuff" it gave away to millions of people included preventative care (like annual checkups) and those would have a large downward affect on overall healthcare spending.
But, you know what's funny? That hasn't happened. The party that "fucking loves science" has to deal with the fact that, scientifically speaking, lots of the claims made for Obamacare just haven't panned out. Increased spending on preventative care has not been shown to decrease overall healthcare spending--which isn't totally surprising since the vast majority of healthcare spending happens fora very small minority of cases (where there are serious health problems) and towards the end of life (where preventative spending doesn't do much).
So, you know, chalk that one up to failing the "objective reality" test. Just like "Obamacare will drastically decrease Emergency Room utilization and lower costs that way," that claim just fails.

That's why it's not discussed any more. In fact ALL of the metrics by which Obamacare was supposed to improve the system, decrease costs, and "bend the cost curve down" have failed to materialize! That's why the ONLY thing you hear the Media and Obamacare supporters talk about is "increased numbers of insured," because that's the only metric they can plausibly claim to have made any improvements on. Even that number is phony, of course, since most of the increase is from expanding Medicare and people FORCED to buy ins...but at least it's something. It's all they have, really.

Chuck said...

HoodlumDoodlum said...
You can thank Republican lawyers' work for about ten years (and the Tea Party vote of 2010 -- Thanks!!!) for that.

Uh...do most LifeLongRepublicans repeat the Dem talking point that the reason for several cycles of Republican gains is due to unfair gerrymandering, done by "Republican lawyers' work?"
Maybe I hang out with the wrong Republicans or something, but that seems...odd.

You are definitely hanging out with the wrong Republicans.

I didn't say anything about "unfair gerrymandering." Where I come from, we call that "redistricting." By law, it gets done after every decennial census.

You want your best lawyers doing that.

btw; you know what is more expensive, than hiring the best lawyer in town? Hiring the second-best lawyer in town.

brylun said...

The 2019 Senate may end up being more Republican, as 23 of the 33 Senate seats up are held by Dems, and 10 Dem Senators are running in 2018 in states that voted for Trump. (The lean of a state at the presidential level has become increasingly predictive of Senate results.) Donnelly (D-IN), Heitkamp (D-ND), Manchin (D-WV), McCaskill (D-MO) and Tester (D-MT) are especially vulnerable. As for McCain, should he die in office, Arizona Governor Ducey (R) is likely to appoint someone who is far right of McCain to fill his unexpired term (Unfortunately, glioblastoma is a relentless disease offering very little hope for survival for more than a few months.)

Perhaps Obamacare repeal will happen in 2019 with a stronger GOP Senate majority... if it doesn't implode before then.

Birkel said...

Democrats think Republicans benefit from gerrymandering because Democrat lawyers have demanded minority-majority districts that reduce the number of Democrats in the surrounding districts. Further, Democrats blame Republicans for those minority-majority district representatives (all Democrats) who would never surrender their minority-majority districts.

If Republicans are to be blamed, I'd like Democrats to address the need for the CBC to take an anti-gerrymandering position, first. Good luck with that.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

The Republicans' gains at the state and local levels are reflected in their House gains. The Republicans'gains in the House are similar in scope to their gains in the Senate.
If you have a solid argument that gerrymandering is behind the Republicans' Senate gains...well, people are clever, but that'd be a tough one to sell.

Incumbents use gerrymandering to their advantage, there's no doubt about that. I'm sure gerrymandering has helped Republican incumbents a bit at the margins. Gerrymandering is, today, much less effective than in times past (due to court challenges, more states adopting "neutral" districting rules, etc) so if you want to use it to explain a current TREND you've got some work to do.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

I didn't say anything about "unfair gerrymandering." Where I come from, we call that "redistricting." By law, it gets done after every decennial census.

Right...and redistricting is done based on population changes, and if done fairly would not unduly benefit either party, but your comment implied that Republican gains were in part due to their good lawyering which implies they got an advantage from their good lawyers in how the redistricting was done...which is a Lefty talking point (that Republican gains are unjust/unfair due to gerrymandering). I mean, proud Lefty harrogate immediately made exactly that point, right?
Now, I'd expect a proud Lefty to make that argument. My shock was in hearing it from a LifeLongRepublican.
But hey, I'm learning.

Chuck said...


Achilles said...
...
There have been numerous attempts to show the house is only Republican because of Gerrymandering. They have all failed miserably. The real problem for democrats is they are concentrating themselves in small urban cloisters. All of the democrat districts are 80/20 and the republican districts are 60/40.
...
2011 redistricting particularly had little to do with it.
...
There is nothing the democrats can do to win back the house as long as their platform is based on racial grievance, vote buying, and open borders...

You almost wrote an entire comment that I could agree with! Congrats!

I would contend that there has been nothing illegal about Republican redistricting; I contend that the term "Gerrymandering" has no place in any serious argument since it has no legal meaning; and I would agree that redistricting is not the sole determinative factor in our success in the House. There are fundamental pro-conservative movements in the electorate and in the national geography.

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