Around a quarter [of the men and women polled] think private work meetings with colleagues of the opposite sex are inappropriate. Nearly two-thirds say people should take extra caution around members of the opposite sex at work. A majority of women, and nearly half of men, say it’s unacceptable to have dinner or drinks alone with someone of the opposite sex other than their spouse.I'm glad they did a poll rather than to bumble along assuming it's fine to mock Pence as a ridiculous prude. It's a very real, complicated problem, men and women together, and there's no simple hey-quit-doing-that answer, because people really do get sexually involved with coworkers and because women in the workplace really do deserve equal treatment.
The results show the extent to which sex is an implicit part of our interactions. They also explain in part why women still don’t have the same opportunities as men. They are treated differently not just on the golf course or in the boardroom, but in daily episodes large and small, at work and in their social lives....
The highest-rated comment over there is, "Are we still living in a free country or have we already been conquered by Saudi-Arabia?"
But there are also people saying:
Define sexual harassment down to the point where even entirely innocent interactions are called harassment, insist that women must always be believed, increase the penalty to career death, and then act shocked when men actively avoid one-on-one meetings with female employees.And:
As a male college teacher, I no longer socialize with my students, male or female. This is because I have been warned in multiple ways, officially and anecdotally, that interaction, even casual,conversation, outside the classroom with female students is fraught with peril. To be evenhanded, I leave them all to their own devices. Years ago I might have invited students to dinner or parties, accepted invitations to their own parties, joined them at bars or restaurants. Today, that all just looks like unnecessary risk. Congratulations are due to the triumph of hyper-vigilant feminist ideologues.
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The French are laughing at us.
In my job I occasionally have one on one meetings with women off site. They are, of course, always in public places near the offce--a coffee shop, usually. The casual banter before we get to the real agenda always, always, includes discussion of spouses and children and the rigors of balancing work and family.
It used to be an example of cultural difference that in Spanish culture it was assumed that any time a man and a women are alone together there's an affair. The difference being that in ours it isn't.
Define sexual harassment down to the point where even entirely innocent interactions are called harassment, insist that women must always be believed, increase the penalty to career death, and then act shocked when men actively avoid one-on-one meetings with female employees.
And remember, it's not the intent, but the perception of the intent that counts.
Because men have a deep appreciation for the va jay jay, women will always be able to eat their cake and have it to.
This is why I say that feminists must be crypto creationists. There seems to be a faith that a set of rules were created for us to live by and we will be able to discover them, as placed by our creator, who was a firm believer in strict equality of the sexes. It's not like some risible "invisible hand" of natural selection exercised in a wilderness for millions of years would come to a different conclusion!
It used to be doctors and pastors who had to be careful about this sort of thing. Now it's any male over the age of 12.
I think one interesting dynamic at work has been interaction between older women and younger men. The older women get the freer they seem to feel to make lewd comments and be touchy- feely in uncomfortable ways, especially with younger men, who don't seem to welcome it all. And have been quicker to complain officially about it, partly to avoid being judged the instigator.
Is the article/poll about Mika and Joe?
Seems like they are poster children for the dangers of hanging out with not-your-husband.
Related thought: is she the best Joe can do?
John Henry
You can "thank" Anita Hill and the crazy feminists who tried to keep a highly qualified black man off the Supreme Court by accusing him of sexual harassment for things that, even if they did happen (and they did not), were just normal stuff, the way people actually talk (used to talk, before the speech police)in real life.
Jeepers. Now we're blaming this on SJWs? It was always a bad idea to meet with a female coworker privately, and the reason was always obvious: If you're a decent married guy you should stay out of trouble and that leads to trouble. The time to exercise self-control is before you're alone with her.
I am a potential rapist. There seems to be a 20% chance that I will rape any woman if given the opportunity. I can't help it. I'm a guy,
All the deep thinkers tell me so.
Not wanting the problems, I avoid the opportunities
John Henry
To everyone that hates Trump, here is an object lesson on how we got Trump.
Pence was ridiculed HEAVILY during the campaign by reporters and their news organs because it was reported that he will not meet with women alone and takes his wife to dinners with him. Pence did a Romney and was very polite about being very polite.
A decent reporter would have included that lots of men feel the same way and take the same precautions. Then looking at their rough draft would have said this is a "dog bites man" story, there is nothing here, and filed the story in the trash. But that is not what they did. Pence took a rather harsh beating in the news papers, TV, tweets, etc.
In a rational world the Pence not being alone with women story would have never been published. In a very nearly rational world, the first time it was published three other major news organizations would have opined and reported stories like the one AA linked to here and stopped the snowball from rolling downhill. Those things did not happen.
So, now you have a low rated morning show that decides it is going to attack Trump.
His choice is to a)be very polite about being very polite, or b)point out that the hosts of that show seemed very very friendly like there were no problems as recently as New Year's Eve, and people that seem to turn that fast are not very bright or psycho, or dumb.
Trump decides he is not going to take stories like that so he punches back. Yeah, it is rude, and crude, and much more chainsaw than scalpel, but he is the first candidate (in my memory) to do that. All from his tweets. Because the press no longer reports objective facts but instead narratives they create on their journolists, the RATIONAL thing to do is fight back. Trump generates the "You will not turn off this microphone because I paid for this microphone" every day. Hell, Trump gets a "Mr. Gobachev, Tear down this wall!" moment about once a month.
Here's a prediction. The next open Republican primary, so 2024, you will see every GOP candidate with a twitter punch back on virtually every criticism thrown their way. I suspect they will all be more surgical than Trump's tweets, but I expect they will all have them.
Of course sex is an implicit part of all of our interactions. And the overwhelming majority of women dress is a way designed to call attention to their sexual attributes and thus emphasize the experience of sexuality as part of the act of interacting with them.
The incoherence of dressing for sexual emphasis (take a look at the female/male clothing differences on CNBC or any other news station) and then decrying being viewed in sexual terms is one of the inanities of contemporary feminist nonsense.
Men in business settings don't dress to reveal and emphasize their bodies' sexual allure. Women should do the same. Given men's innate responsiveness to visual sexual cues, women who dress in alluring ways at work are in fact committing sexual harassment.
Ask any man how easy it is to ignore a woman's breasts, while in a conversation with her, when they are pushed up, pushed forward, partially revealed (cleavage), and then covered with a thin, clingy, colorful, highly tactile fabric.
My office at work is in a secured artifact storage room. Even though we have security cameras running 24/7, I will not meet with anyone without the door being open. I haven't spend the last 25 years getting to my position to risk falling into a false accusation. Even if proven false, the reputational destruction is forever in a small profession like museum work.
highly tactile fabric.
Wait, what?
I would not hire employees till I had 24 x 7 cameras installed. Made me sleep much better at night.
My view is he said, she said, he loses... Even if she lied.
Story I heard when I was substitute teaching, of a male teacher accused of something. Later proven false, but by then his career had been destroyed.
I don't even need the possibility.
I think it's cruel for people to expect co-workers to socialize with them outside of work. You're already at the office together all day, every day. Now you have to hang out at some stupid bar, when you could be at home, to get a promotion? Bleh.
" It was always a bad idea to meet with a female coworker privately, and the reason was always obvious:"
Says the SJW.
Here's a prediction. The next open Republican primary, so 2024, you will see every GOP candidate with a twitter punch back on virtually every criticism thrown their way.
Gingrich did this in 2012 and nobody else picked up on it. It wasn't Twitter but he punched back at the moderators in the debates.
Romney could have done that to Stephanopolis when he asked the fake contraceptive question. Romney just wasn't quick thinking enough. The same thing happened to him with the Candy Crowley caper. He could have said, "Hey. What transcript ? What have you got there? Is this some sort of setup ?"
He didn't. He had another opportunity with the Russia remark by Obama.
"The 1980s foreign policy ended with us winning the cold war. The policy you are following will lose a war. I hope none of our enemies notices "
As John Henry pointed out, Morning Joe has given us in depth reporting to this phenomenon. If young healthy people are around each other for protracted periods, they will start flirting. Attachments will form. Relationships will be consummated. What's the big deal? As we have learned to accept gay marriages,so should we learn to accept inner office blowjobs. The trick is not to let these relationships get out of hand and overshadow one's marriage. Moderation in all things. We can't have a Saudi Arabia type of workplace segregation where only other men can proffer blowjobs in the inner office. In this, as in so much else, Bill Clinton was exemplary and showed the proper way to handle an office romance. It's no wonder that he's so beloved by feminists.
There was an article in the Daily Beast about some porn performer who mistreated his female coworkers. You would think that being a porn performer is one of those jobs where sexual harassment would not be an issue, but you would be wrong. Wherever you draw the line, some guy is going to cross it just bcause its there and, also, some woman is going to say you crossed it, just because it's there.......Many of these problems can be solved with dual function sex robots and office assistants. How come we have self driving cars and no sex robots? What does that say about America's priorities.
As a recently retired (two years ago) very senior engineer I will say frankly that an older male cannot mentor an attractive -- or even unattractive -- junior employees. It's not worth the risk. And I will tell you further, Althouse, that senior women as a rule do a poor job of mentoring their junior staff of either gender. Incredible advantage to young men. That's a problem for you and the rest of your feminists to fix -- we males have mortgages to pay and kids to put through college. Towards the end of me career the only women I mentored was when I was assigned one in the company's formal mentoring program. And when we met face to face to face it was in a conference room that had glass doors and walls.
Youth sports coaches also being alone with a player to avoid potential claims. A high school assistant football coach I know told me that he never went into a room with a player unless another coach was present.
When I was still teaching three of my female students invited me to see "Vagina Monologues" that was being staged on the medical campus. I thanked them and declined.
Two of them invited me to their weddings the next summer. I took that as a great compliment.
If women want to be treated the same as men in the workplace, then they have to be treated the same as men in all cases. A sexual harassment accusation should have no weight behind it unless it is backed up with evidence. Filing a false report should be a career killer. A woman sleeping with her boss to get a promotion should be a career killer for both of them. Women need to accept that being out of the office for 3 years to raise children is necessarily going to stunt their careers. The entire concept of chivalry and men protecting women need to be discarded in the business setting. That's not what we have now. What we have now is women are just as good as men but if you make her cry you are the worst person ever. And if you treat a woman just like a man and the woman fails, that is because the men have rigged the system and everything must change to benefit the woman even if it hurts the business in the process.
So, yes, until we come up with an equitable and accepted arrangement, men are going to be reluctant to meet with women alone in the business setting. Unless they want to bang them.
Morning Joe has given us in depth reporting to this phenomenon. If young healthy people
Except they're not young. One has been called crazy.
We had a case in Orange County about ten years ago in which a high school PE instructor (male) was accused by three junior high girls of sexual attacks. He went to trial and was acquitted after which the girls confessed they had made up the allegation to get revenge for him punishing them for refusing to dress for PE.
It was three years of hell for him and his family.
"A woman sleeping with her boss to get a promotion should be a career killer for both of them."
You mean you are not thrilled with Kamala Harris our new presidential candidate ?
Feminism is the theory that women are special. From that axiom it follows that they deserve special treatment. As in: women get to wear provocative clothing in the workplace with impunity, women's accusations must be believed, and so on. Rational men, as this thread illustrates, go Pence in response, with all the unintended, but of course entirely foreseeable, negative consequences for women. Another famous victory for feminism.
@Micael K, did you see Secretary for Health and Human Services Tom Price push back against Chuck Todd? Here's the money quote from Price when Todd was trying to turn the interview into a discussion of Trump's tweets:
SECY. TOM PRICE: Chuck, you know, this is really remarkable. You’ve got incredible challenges across this nation, incredible challenges around the world. The challenge that I’ve been given is to address the health care issues. And your program, a program with the incredible history of Meet the Press, and that’s what you want to talk about?
Well played, Secretary Price!
I coached my sons' soccer and baseball teams. Then I took my son to college and watched a harridan screech at the panel about the rape epidemic.
Nevermore.
Like Pence, people want to avoid not the temptation of the opposite sex but the possibility of false accusations. Most men realize that, when it's 'he said, she said', it is she who will be believed.
"@Micael K, did you see Secretary for Health and Human Services Tom Price push back against Chuck Todd? "
Yes, I posted the video somewhere.
Here it is again. Good stuff.
I've always been cautious with meeting female coworkers or visitors in my workplace.
I taught junior college part time back in the early 90s and didn't perceive a problem (most computer science were men back then), but if I were teaching now I'd treat every student, especial females, as a vile of professional nitroglycerin in any interaction.
Even back in the early 1990s when I was TAing we male instructors were told (not that we needed to be) that we should leave our office doors wide open when meeting with female students.
Then again, I don't even think about such things most of the time. I do field archaeology and so spending alone time with my coworkers is part of the deal. Of course, being "out in the field" does tend to encourage (if that's the right word) dalliances. I've never partaken, but I've seen the messes it can create.
Oh what do I know. I'm harmless so it's not even an issue. JAYsus.
It is an ancient problem and will not go away. It is rooted in our humanity. This is why all traditional societies have discussed this issue and regulations appropriate. Predators come in all modes.
And, if the French are laughing at us, it is because the French know this problem only all too well and go through many steps to avoid it.
Perhaps, being a cad and bumpkin is the best defense against such predatory behavior; perhaps this explains the Orange Man's outrageous lack of charm and graciousness with the Ladies.
Blogger Daniel Jackson said...
It is an ancient problem and will not go away. It is rooted in our humanity. This is why all traditional societies have discussed this issue and regulations appropriate. Predators come in all modes.
7/3/17, 10:45 AM
Problem? Problem? The attraction between men and women is one of the finest things about being a human. The perversion of American culture by feminists is a passing phase. You can probably get professional help.
When I was young, a new co-worker said (off-hand) that she'd left her previous office because she'd slept with all the men in it. Several years later I went to her wedding reception and couldn't not think about that.
@Oso Negro, the problem is that we middle-aged men really would like to treat subordinate female employees the same as we treat subordinate males, however currently we dare not. If a subordinate male was not well prepared for an important meeting, I can take him aside and quietly advise him how to make sure he's always prepared for key meetings. I couldn't do that with a female because either (1) we'd have to be in a relatively public setting, which would turn guidance into something more like a reprimand, or (2) I'd risk her getting pissy and making a false accusation. Why risk it? Feminists would (have!) argue that we should take the risk. No way!
New York Times had an article about women in tech and Silicon Valley'sculture of harasment." They profiled women who operate a startup called Wethos. Wet Hos. They don't produce anything meaningful. I sense that if they did they wouldn't be so wounded by a man calling them a total babe. They would find VC funding if they did something meaningful.
I worked closely with a female attorney on a major environmental case about three decades ago. Lots of evenings and weekends alone together. I admired her greatly, what an agile mind! We genuinely liked each other and laughed a lot.
Towards the end of my career my assistant was a woman that I mentored for some ten years. Also an incredibly bright individual. Lots of site visits and evening public hearings. Some, jokingly, referred to her as my office wife. Indispensable. We genuinely liked each other and laughed a lot. And, in one of the better decisions my agency made, she replaced me when I retired.
Both were rumored to have slept with me. Neither slept with me.
The rumors pissed me off because they COULD have affected the careers of my friends. Not mine because neither did, or [I trusted] would, complain about me in that vein.
Fortunately both were such stellar employees their careers advanced.
Blogger Big Mike said...
@Oso Negro, the problem is that we middle-aged men really would like to treat subordinate female employees the same as we treat subordinate males, however currently we dare not. If a subordinate male was not well prepared for an important meeting, I can take him aside and quietly advise him how to make sure he's always prepared for key meetings. I couldn't do that with a female because either (1) we'd have to be in a relatively public setting, which would turn guidance into something more like a reprimand, or (2) I'd risk her getting pissy and making a false accusation. Why risk it? Feminists would (have!) argue that we should take the risk. No way!
And THAT, Big Mike, is why my female staff is based in Eastern Europe. It's a big world. Not all countries have the hangups of the USA.
Ask any man how easy it is to ignore a woman's breasts, while in a conversation with her, when they are pushed up, pushed forward, partially revealed (cleavage), and then covered with a thin, clingy, colorful, highly tactile fabric.
What? Sorry, I wasn't paying attention.
I wonder if feminists ever think about the damage they do to other women with this stuff?
Nah.
A big change I have seen in medicine is that medical students tend to marry each other. It isn;t doctors marrying nurses anymore.
It helps with double incomes as MDs average incomes have slid in recent years.
It does complicate such things as residency choices. And choices of places to go into practice.
I also see single women docs marrying men with shift work jobs, like cops and firemen.
It helps with childcare.
One of my very pretty students a few years ago married her high school boyfriend who was an auto mechanic.
She was very smart and probably makes enough for both of them but it was an interesting thing to see.
"It's a very real, complicated problem, men and women together, and there's no simple hey-quit-doing-that answer, because people really do get sexually involved with coworkers and because women in the workplace really do deserve equal treatment."
This is a good, thoughtful statement. Sexuality is a part of how we all interact with others, that's why we have rules and have to apply common sense. We might be honest about how this shakes out in unique work situations, like military service. While we're at it we might also admit that which sex we're attracted to plays a big role in how we interact with, h, everyone.
From When Harry Met Sally
Harry Burns: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.
Sally Albright: So, you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive?
Harry Burns: No. You pretty much want to nail 'em too.
A big change I have seen in medicine is that medical students tend to marry each other.
Yes, my stepson married a fellow med student. They graduated together from UW [WA] and both did their residencies at Duke. He became an ENT and she a dermatologist. But he soon traded her in for a neurosurgeon. Personally, I think physicians should marry other physicians when possible. But there is professional jealousy involved that wouldn't occur in a doctor-nurse relationship. And I can't even imagine sharing a practice.
When I was a young divorced mother of one I met a man who was intelligent and funny--even quirky--and we had some good times together but only as friends. Of course, he was not happy with that arrangement but I had no sexual attraction to him whatever. When I made it very clear that friendship was all there was, he accepted it and we stayed friends. I introduced him to a lifelong female friend of mine and they got married shorty after. To my knowledge, they are still married. Actually, I was a very good matchmaker. :-)
Note that the poll applied to both men AND women, yet the article says this "...explain[s] in part why women still don’t have the same opportunities as men. They are treated differently...."
The democrat media party continues to teach me to befriend, vote, employ and do business with my own tribe. Thanks a lot.
@Michael K Thanks for the Price link. I take two things out of Price's interview: 1. That Trump hired a qualified guy, gave him a mission they agreed on and has let him do his job - which he seems perfectly capable of doing; 2. Todd got stuffed and knew it. It is interesting when an interviewee will not accept the premise of one of these village idiot interviewers. The interviewers are so dumb that they don't know enough to change direction so they wade back in and get smacked again. Then the fun part where Todd sits there looking like he just got a wedgie.
I am impressed with Price. It's wonderful to have someone talking about health care who has not only practiced medicine, and studied the issues with a Doctors vision, but knows how DC works.
@PB One of the most accurate observations on male/female relations.
But there is professional jealousy involved that wouldn't occur in a doctor-nurse relationship. And I can't even imagine sharing a practice.
The dynamics are interesting. The two medical students who invited me to their weddings were both marrying non medical men. One was a Cal Tech grad student and the other was in some sort of business.
Two classmates of mine got married and that was back in the dark ages. They are still together and had one kid. She would like to have had more but he did not.
My first wife I married in college and she was very impatient with my training. She was a sorority girl and had friends who would say, "You mean your husband is still a student?" It bothered her and I gave up some ambition but resented it.
A nurse would be more understanding, I think.
Michael k
How do you know the doctor makes more than the mechanic husband?
A good mechanic can make $100m/yr.
A doctor without a specialty can make less than $100m
John Henry
It is an ancient problem and will not go away. It is rooted in our humanity. This is why all traditional societies have discussed this issue and regulations appropriate.
What's new is that women have demanded entry into what were traditionally male spaces while also demanding any interaction that makes them unhappy is the man's fault.
A good mechanic can make $100m/yr.
Must be some kind of specialist, like aircraft. I live in one of the most expensive areas in the country and the going rate for an experienced auto mechanic is $20/hr.
Oh? What do garages charge per man-hour? I'd like to find a decent guy with tools for $20/hr in Westchester! (forget Greenwich CT)
The problem, of course, BL, is that you can't just pay the mechanic his wage. Shop time is what costs. Got all that overhead, etc.
That said, I do know a plumber who makes over $100K/yr. And if a plumber OR a mechanic owns his own business, they could well exceed some physicians' income. After trying without success to get my lazy-ass grandsons interested in joining the military, I'm hoping they will at least learn a useful skill. One of them has been a pilot since the age of 13 but dropped out of college and only works sporadically. The other one is not a pilot but also dropped out of college and only works sporadically. They are both in their mid-twenties and still living at home. :-(
Things have been crazy for quite a while.
Years ago, when my 10 y/o daughter wanted a sleep-over with some of her friends, I thought why not? Then one of the mothers called me up and asked if my wife was going to be there (hint hint). Of course, my wife was off on business trip.
So, I just said "I don't know" and cancelled the whole thing. I mean fuck that noise. No one would have even thought about like that when I was growing up.
Do the same thing at work. Treat both sexes the same & never be alone with them. That way the females can't accuse you of sex discrimination or sexual harassment.
90% of our HR complaints come from women.
Oh? What do garages charge per man-hour? I'd like to find a decent guy with tools for $20/hr in Westchester! (forget Greenwich CT)
None that I'm aware. When I said $20/hr I meant what the garage pays him. Of course that's not what they're going to charge you.
Just think if Clarence Thomas had not met with Anita Hill privately. We would all have been spared the circus of the Senate committee hearings and Thomas would have been spared the ridiculous charges of an obviously spurned woman. As someone quoted during the hearings, 'Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned' from Euripedes' Medea [ mis-attributed it to Shakespeare and corrected by the literate Alan Simpson of WY].
Mike Pence’s Marriage and the Beliefs That Keep Women from Power
Women have a lot of power. It may not be a visible kind if power but it's power, nonetheless. And a woman can marry power and enjoy the fruits thereof without having to assume the responsibilities.
I thought this topic was dead months ago. It should be dead and buried by now. There's nothing new anyone can say.
Ralph L.,
Dude, she was hitting on you.
A good mechanic can make $100m/yr.
Must be some kind of specialist, like aircraft. I live in one of the most expensive areas in the country and the going rate for an experienced auto mechanic is $20/hr.
Check your local Mercedes dealer.
So glad I'm retired. So glad I'm married to and old fashioned woman.
When I was in college I worked part time as a Vet Tech. Had a black male co-worker. One day a client came in with her 10 year old girl. Asked if her kid could use the bathroom. My co-worker led the girl into the back, through a hallway and two doors, to the bathroom.
When he got back I chewed him out. Don't you ever do that again. His eyes glared and I realized he thought it was racial. No dude, it has nothing to do with race. If that little girl says you touched her, it's your word against hers. Who do you think they are going to believe? Men have no rights there. You would be fucked.
He sat back for a moment and, as it dawned on him how true this was, literally shivered, like he had just been shot at and almost hit.
"The casual banter before we get to the real agenda always, always, includes discussion of spouses and children and the rigors of balancing work and family."
You have to be careful with that. I got in trouble once at work when we were interviewing a young woman for a paralegal job. She was sporting a big rock on her left hand, and I said, near the end of the interview (she was totally qualified and I recommended making an offer), "O, are you getting married?" The New York City Human Rights Commission prohibits any discussion of marital status with a job applicant.
Prof. Althouse, of course, lawprof hypocrite extraordinaire, totally embraces and endorses these laws which criminalize ordinary human social interaction.
Earnest Prole: The French are laughing at us.
1) The French disdain everyone who is not them...and even those questionable people from the provinces. So that indicates nothing.
2) If the French had the variety of Feminists we had, they would not be laughing. However, THEY tend to shut down or socially marginalize such strident, stringent, and shrill malcontents who can find offense at a man saying 'bon jour' to a woman (this is, in FemSpeak, a 'catcall')
One would think Karma, a huge bitch, would have been more gentle to women and Feminists due to that whole 'gender' thing. She has not.
You asked for these laws. You got them. It has not worked out how you wanted it to.
It would take a heart of stone not to laugh like a hyena at the fall out.
"What do garages charge per man-hour? I'd like to find a decent guy with tools for $20/hr in Westchester!"
Businesses have a lot of expenses. As a general rule, you can expect a service business to charge at least three times what the employee performing the service makes.
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