June 29, 2017

"Every day, millions of sweltering Pakistanis struggled to forgo food and water from sunrise to sunset, then roused themselves before dawn to wash, pray, cook and eat."

"The Ramadan ordeal has brought into sharp relief the chronic water and power shortages plaguing this arid, Muslim-majority country of 180 million. In cities, families had to fill jugs and bottles from public taps at 3 a.m. In villages, long daily electrical outages stopped fans from whirring and tube wells from pumping water to irrigate parched fields."

Temperatures during this ordeal were as high as 128°. It was like Death Valley during the day — long summer days — and they could not drink water. At night, it was still very hard to get water, with pumps not working.

The story — at The Washington Post — doesn't mention whether anyone died. If you had described those conditions to me as a hypothetical and asked me to predict how many would die — out of 180 million — my guess would be in the millions.

And what is the rule, really, about not drinking any water in the daytime during Ramadan? There is some kind of allowance to keep people from succumbing to heat stroke and dehydration, isn't there?

"And a leading religious scholar in Karachi clarified... that Islam allows the elderly, sick or weak to interrupt fasting in extreme situations. People shouldn't risk their lives for a religious duty," said a cleric named Mufti Naeem, quoted in "Ramadan leads to dehydration in Pakistani heat wave." That's from 2 years ago, when the temperature got as high as 113° (15° cooler than this year). That article says "More than 1,100 people have already died." And the problem isn't simply dehydration from too little water. There's also damage from drinking too much water once it is permitted:
"It's possible that the body cannot cope with this, depending on its overall condition"... Drinking too much at once... dilutes the body's electrolytes too much, causing water to be drawn out of cells through their membranes.... [T]his can lead to cerebral or pulmonary edema in people with existing health conditions."
Here's a lengthy discussion of the religious issue, by Dr. Kashif N. Chaudhry (at CNN):
Prophet Mohammed is... known to have discouraged fasting for the sick, and for pregnant women and nursing mothers. At another place, he equated those who fasted during times of hardship to those who did not fast during normal conditions -- both disobeying God...

Until the Pakistani government does its job of providing round-the-clock power and air-conditioned public shelters, those exposed to the current heat wave -- especially the children, elderly and sick -- must ensure proper hydration for themselves. And once these harsh weather conditions change for the better, they can repay the missed number of days at a later time.

This approach is in line with the requirements of wisdom -- and the teachings of Islam.

114 comments:

Kevin said...

Until the Pakistani government does its job of providing round-the-clock power and air-conditioned public shelters...

...as were available in Muhammad's time...

Ann Althouse said...

As the post shows, there is an interpretation that allows people to drink the water they need to avoid health problems. The last-quoted piece even argues that it's a sin not to protect your health.

Please try to keep the comments respectful and intelligent. Millions of people are truly suffering here and those of you who find it an occasion to disparage Muslims should — as Jesus advised — look at yourselves and your own sins.

Ann Althouse said...

I am going to delete all the comments that are not respectful.

Please try again.

If you are Christian, think about what would be a Christian response!

Ann Althouse said...

FYI I deleted 6 comments.

Kevin said...

I suspect this is another example of something started by the very pious which has slowly turned into something resembling blasphemy for anyone who does not strictly comply.

You know, like separating recyclables from your trash or drinking kombucha here in the US...

Achilles said...

"Until the Pakistani government does its job of providing round-the-clock power and air-conditioned public shelters,"

The best way to help those people would be a free market.

The surest way to hurt those people is to wait for the government to provide for those people.

Laslo Spatula said...

It is an episode of "Survivor".

The Game Show Host has lost control of the Game.

I am Laslo.

rhhardin said...

It's suffering porn.

rhhardin said...

Klavan analyses the psychosis of the left as thinking changing language changes reality, yesterday's podcast I think.

rhhardin said...

It may be a female thing, not a leftist thing.

David Begley said...

Ann, there is no Christian duty to fix the entire world. It is the duty of the government of Pakistan to provide water and electricity to its people. And as you alluded, there is no sense or real religious reason for this fast. I wrote a paper in college on the "no meat on Friday" Catholic rule. My conclusion is that it was simply branding and tribalism.

Everything published by WaPo is political. This story is part of the open borders policy favored by the .Dems.

Delete me if you like. It is your blog.

rhhardin said...

Jesus said don't speak of men being better tennis players than women.

rhhardin said...

A guy goes right to the principle, not to the feelz.

David Begley said...

Muslims created the month long fast as part of a branding or tribalism thing. And since Allah requires it, it is a religious control thing.

Laslo Spatula said...

"'If you are Christian, think about what would be a Christian response!"

Maybe they should consider converting to Christianity.

Saved.

Solved.

I am Laslo.

rhhardin said...

Augustine had charity as thinking the best of people rather than the worst, which is how charity wound up being soul-saving. As opposed to money.

The system should be mocked and ridiculed however. Speak the truth. The truth helps, lying does not.

May be a guy thing. Women tend to think lying helps.

rhhardin said...

Some of that stuff from Idiocracy with electrolytes would help.

Laslo Spatula said...

I didn't do Ramadan, but I did stay at a Ramada Inn.

Because it had air-conditioning.

I am Laslo.

rhhardin said...

The right does not hate the leftists, just the system, as being idiotic.

The right is offering help.

A helpful zinger now and then.

The service ought to be available to every system.

Clyde said...

It should be noted that almost every country where Islam is the dominant religion is in the torrid zone. It's been that way since it spread out of the Arabian peninsula in the 7th Century. I read somewhere that religious revelations seem to occur more often to animal herders who have been out in the hot sun too long. It's always been hot and dry in the summer, although since Islam uses a lunar calendar, the season when Ramadan occurs changes from year to year. Pakistan's level of infrastructure is actually fairly advanced compared to historical Islamic standards. And still lots of people die.

David Begley said...

Muslims need to wise up. This month long fast serves no religious purpose. Especially when it is 120 degrees. It is all about control of the populace and branding.

Jesus would try to convert the Muslims to Christianity.That's the Christian response, But Jesus would get his head cut off if he tried.

rhhardin said...

Shortest path through the thesaurus from disrespect to help

disrespect
indignity
humiliation
condescention
favor
aid
help



Bad Lieutenant said...

Ann, we don't really know where the border lies with you. Is it disrespectful* to note that Islam, the religion and the surrounding culture, is tolerant, accepting, welcoming of death?

Look at the lifestyles universally seen in the Middle East and North Africa at any level below the very top - the privations, the corruption. The lionisation of suicidal ideation (the shahid). The punishments, lethal and nonlethal (and how many thieves, amputated for theft, die swiftly of infection, or slowly of starvation, shunning and abuse?), the deaths accepted in the normal course of things - the Saudi girls' school fire where the male rescuers couldn't go in; the annual Hajj in Mecca where pilgrims are regularly trampled to death in large numbers.

Even in Malaysia with balmy climate, ample resources (aside from oil), and your gentle syncretic flavor of Islam (and the fundies are on the rise), you have "running amok" as a normal phenomenon.

Some might pridefully say it makes them tough; others see it merely makes them calloused, or is it callous?

As for your exceptions, which some say might also apply to such as travelers and children, the fundies say "exceptions, pah, fast or be damned!" and have for centuries. Even a Christian in their lands, fully entitled to eat his fill, is best advised to keep it out of sight, and in some places is obliged to.

So no, yeah, Islam is quite prepared for the weak to go the wall. It's not like these lands are short on people. (And if that's how they treat their own, in a faith of tribal origin, what can one expect for outsiders?)

---

*I gawp at the notion that you would defend other religions against disrespect; you haven't in the past - I recall some things you've let by about Judaism, and in general about religion.

Afraid of Muslims, are you? But of no one else, and hmmm, why is that? Because Islamofascists, unlike commenters, are not to be deterred by deleting their posts, and because you wish to live out your days with your pretty head attached firmly to your smooth shoulders?

I hope this has been properly respectful, if not intelligent.

Clyde said...

rhhardin said...
Some of that stuff from Idiocracy with electrolytes would help.


Brawndo! The Thirst Mutilator! Its got what plants crave!

Michael K said...

I guess we are also not allowed to mention that Uttar Pradesh, the predominantly Muslim state of India, is the last bastion of polio since Muslim mothers refuse to have children immunized as the imams have convinced them that Hindus offer vaccination as a way to sterilize Muslims.

Bad Lieutenant said...

The system should be mocked and ridiculed however. Speak the truth. The truth helps, lying does not.

May be a guy thing. Women tend to think lying helps.

Damn, rh, sometimes I wish YOU had a tip jar.

rhhardin said...

As far as I know, nobody has been able to explain Islam as a poeticization of ethics. Too tribal.

I don't know how much respect you can give the system.

Which is different from the people trapped in it.

Laslo Spatula said...

The problem is that, for many of the believers, the Oil is Baked Into The Cake.

Any change can be seen as showing that beliefs are malleable.

A malleable Islam could be a wonderful thing, but one of the draws of Islam is that it is not perceived as malleable: it is what it is, forever.

If it is believed that God demanded you put Oil in the Cake then you damned well better eat the Cake, despite the Oil.

Maybe a better analogy would be putting Dung in the Hummus, perhaps.

To put it another way: if the Muslims were catholic they never would've stopped the Latin Mass.

I am Laslo.

I am Laslo.



rhhardin said...

Islam seeks to optimize the next world, not this one.

This requires a certain amount of lethal force.

Curious George said...

"Blogger Ann Althouse said...
I am going to delete all the comments that are not respectful."

The future of this Blog must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam.

rhhardin said...

Behead the lamb of God.

Once written, twice... said...

I am glad to see that Ann is finally standing up to some of the conservative commenters who spew bigoted hate. Maybe if she did more of it she would get more of a balanced higher quality crowd around here.

Michael K said...

" Maybe if she did more of it she would get more of a balanced higher quality crowd around here."

Yes, lots more Muslims.

rhhardin said...

Derrida on Islam

``What appears to me unacceptable in the ``strategy'' (in terms of weapons, practices, ideology, rhetoric, discourse, and so on) of the ``bin Laden effect'' is not only the cruelty, the disregard for human life, the disrespect for the law, for women, the use of what is worst in technocapitalist modernity for the purposes of religious fanaticism. No, it is, above all, the fact that such actions and such discourse _open onto no future and, in my view, have no future_. If we are to put any faith in the perfectibility of public space and of the world juridico-political scene, of the ``world'' itself, then there is, it seems to me, _nothing good_ to be hoped for from that quarter. What is being proposed, at least implicitly, is that all captialist and modern technoscientific forces be put in the service of an interpretation, itself dogmatic, of the Islamic revelation of the One. Nothing of what has been so laboriously secularized in even the nontheological form of sovereignty (...), none of this seems to have any place whatsoever in the discourse ``bin Laden.'' That is why, in this unleashing of violence without name, if I had to take one of the two sides and choose in a binary situation, well I would. Despite my very strong reservations about the American, indeed European, political posture, about the ``international terrorist'' coalition, despite all the de facto betrayals, all the failures to live up to democracy, international law, and the very international institutions that the states of this ``coalition'' themselves founded and supported up to a certain point, I would take the side of the camp that, in principle, by right of law, leaves a perspective open to perfectibility in the name of the ``political,'' democracy, international law, international institutions, and so forth. Even if this ``in the name of'' is still merely an assertion and a purely verbal committment. Even in its most cynical mode, such an assertion still lets resonate within it an invincible promise. I don't hear any such promise coming from ``bin Laden,'' at least not one in this world.''

``Autoimmunity: Real and Symbolic Suicides'' _Philosophy in a Time of Terror_ p.113

Once written, twice... said...

Michael K, why the bigoted response? Why care about the religion of any future commenter here as long as they increase the quality of the discourse here? (Which you actively try to depress...)

Mark said...

Michael K, isn't Syria the last bastion of polio too. And some other places?

You seem to not know what last means, but if it's a way to attack Islam you are fine deliberately misunderstanding it.

The moderation on this thread is pretty lame for such a stern warning. That saod, she always does ignore her pets.

exhelodrvr1 said...

"If you are Christian, think about what would be a Christian response!"

To point out their errors, and the outcome that they will lead to? The problem is that anyone who tries to do that gets shouted down, not just by Muslims, but by the left and the press as well.

Laslo Spatula said...

There seems to be a tendency in the West to view Muslims as little more than children.

Not Responsible for their actions. Indulgent. Reactionary.

In other words, they are like US College Kids today.

Convergence.

Unfortunately, we will sooner see our College Kids forming Tribunals that chop off the hands of the Cultural Appropriators than the Muslims accepting LGTB as part of their Culture.

I am Laslo.

I am Laslo.



gspencer said...

One of the best ways of fulfilling Christian duty is speaking the truth. Always.

Islam is the negation of life. Remember, Muslims themselves are the first victims of Islam.

Islam, like so many other false religions, requires its adherents to prove that he/she might be good enough for its god, by killing non-Muslims. There is no Golden Rule in Islam. But in Christianity, God proves His love for us by dying substitutionally, taking your otherwise deserved sinful place, so that you may enjoy the second birth. And that invitation for the second birth is open to all lost sheep ("For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God") though not all will accept the offered gift.

Gahrie said...

Althouse will be apologizing even as they force her into her burkha.

David Begley said...

Why is Friday the holy day for Muslims? Because the Jews had Saturday and the Christians had Sunday. Branding and tribalism.

Once written, twice... said...

I hope Ann's push back against the bigoted anti-Muslim comments by some of her readers is not just a passing fancy.

David Begley said...

One of the official symbols of Christianity is the Cross. The Son of God died on the Cross for our sins. He rose from death on the third day.

One of the official symbols of Islam is the sword. Submit, convert or die. The religion of conquest.

Mark said...

Michael and his 'last bastion of polio' is showing his lack of medical expertise. So sad when aging affects the brain and memory.

Or was it just an attempt to slam Islam?

I think Althouse is looking for people to speak truth, not for a doctor to act like a quack just because he hates Muslims.

"Democratic Republic of Congo has suffered two separate outbreaks of polio, a debilitating and potentially deadly disease that the world is trying to eradicate, the World Health Organization said on Tuesday.

Confirmation of the outbreaks in Congo's Haut-Lomami and Maniema provinces came less than a week after the WHO said polio had resurfaced in Syria"

Also:

"The Congolese cases are the first in the country since 2012. Nigeria, Laos, Myanmar and Ukraine have also seen vaccine-derived polio cases in the past three years."

Yeah, Uttar Pradesh is the last bastion. Except for all those other places.

Laslo Spatula said...

If only there was a way to talk about Islam without actually talking about Islam.

Would make it easier for everybody.

I am Laslo.

Once written, twice... said...

Mark, knowing Michael K's racist proclivities, don't be surprised if he comes back with bigoted comments about those other countries as well.

rhhardin said...

Coleridge, 1800

A new religion had fanaticised whole nations. Men bred up in the habits of a wild and roaming freedom, had been brought together by its influence, and taught to unite the energies of a savage life with all the harmony and calculable coincidencies of a machine. But this religion was deadly to morals, to science, to civil freedom : no society could be progressive under its influence. It was favourable to superstition, cunning, and sensual indulgence; but it bore no fruit, it yielded no marriageable arms to the vine, it sheltered no healing plant. The soil was grassless where it grew ; the fox made its nest at the root, and the owl screamed in its branches - Such was the religion of Mahomet.

Fen said...

This is a nuclear power.


"I'm glad to see Ann is - "

Pose harder, bigot.

Robert Cook said...

How typical that the commenters here are criticizing those suffering from the heat and shortage of water for their own predicament.

Michael said...

Once written is now hall monitor, Badge?

I have been in North Africa during Ramadan. There is /was the custom to invert day and night. Sleep all day and feast all night. There was no noticeable "ordeal" just a reordering of life for thirty days. It was hot as hell in the day and on the hills the shepherds were slumbering in the shade.

Sebastian said...

"If you are Christian, think about what would be a Christian response!"

We need a new word for the quick, vicarious taking offense at anti-Muslim "bigotry." I suggest Moflake.

The Christian response would be that, for the sake of their bodies as well as their souls, the suffering Muslims should convert to the more humane religion predicated on God's love rather than submission. To which the Muslim response, in practice, would be -- wait, let me think, don't want to trigger anyone.

Gahrie said...

How typical that the commenters here are criticizing those suffering from the heat and shortage of water for their own predicament.

You're right Comrade Marvin, it's clearly our fault.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Robert Cook said...

"Even in Malaysia with balmy climate, ample resources (aside from oil), and your gentle syncretic flavor of Islam (and the fundies are on the rise), you have 'running amok' as a normal phenomenon."

Heh. As if "running amok" isn't almost the national pastime in America.

Laslo Spatula said...

From a reddit of former Muslims...

Islam & Scientology:
Both religions use extreme tactics to punish apostates.
Both justify violence, lying, tricking, and fighting to protect defamation of their names.
Once again, both are sexist and racist, and more clearly homophobic (Mormonism is only homophobic in that the Bible is anti-gay; Joseph Smith didn't entirely address sexual orientations cause he was too busy being a man hoe.)
criticism of their founder leads to excommunication.
Both called for lack of empathy for those outside of their religion.
Both believed in divine rights on a certain land.

From "SCIENTOLOGY AND ISLAM AN ANALOGOUS STUDY"

In the Dianetics and Scientology Technical Dictionary, survival is explained as: 1. is a condition susceptible to non-survival. If one is “surviving,” one is at the same moment admitting that one can cease to survive. Otherwise, one would never strive to survive. 2. survival might be defined as an impulse to persist through time, in space, as matter and energy. 3. survival is understood to be the basic single thrust of life through time and space, energy and matter. Survival is subdivided into eight dynamics (or urges to survive).

How does this compare to Islam? “What man is created for and living for” is explained in one Arabic word, qiyama. The Quran is not necessarily translated correctly from the Arabic, and this word has not been correctly translated into the English.

Qiyama (noun) is derived from qom or qama. This qom or qama has many different meanings such as: rise up, stand up, look back, attack, live with honor, rise from death, reverse, rise, depart, position, take rest, start, implement, support, and take responsibility. Bearing this in mind, as an overall concept, the meaning of qiyama in the Quran and survival in Scientology could well be stating the same thing.

I am Laslo.

JaimeRoberto said...

I think the rough guideline is that you can go 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water and 3 weeks without food. I suppose your mileage may vary if you are digging ditches in the hot sun or are already old or infirm.

Robert Cook said...

"You're right Comrade Marvin, it's clearly our fault."

No. Didn't you even read the article?

MadisonMan said...

God will provide?

I am suspicious of a religion that seeks so much control over me, even to what I put in my body, and when. There is no logic to it.

A religion that seeks to control how you behave towards others -- that is better aligned with my way of thinking.

What would happen to a person offering someone in Pakistan a drink of water, knowing that person was dying of thirst?

Gahrie said...

What would a thread about Islam, Pakistan, and Ramadan be without a gratuitous attack on the United States?

Gahrie said...

I am suspicious of a religion that seeks so much control over me, even to what I put in my body, and when

Don't all religions do this?

Gahrie said...

No. Didn't you even read the article?

Your comment had nothing to do with the article..it was about the commentors.

rhhardin said...

Churchill

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.


- What are all these men getting at?

Laslo Spatula said...

Islam needs its own L. Ron Hubbard.

I am Laslo.

David Begley said...

The rational thing to do would be to suspend the fast when the temp forecast is for over 100. Kind of like suspending the no meat rule when St. Patrick's day falls on a Friday in Lent.

rhhardin said...

In America we have alternate side of the street parking rules.

David Begley said...

Islam needs both a Martin Luther and an Ignatius Loyola, modern versions.

rhhardin said...

A political system is not a religion.

Curious George said...

"Gahrie said...
Althouse will be apologizing even as they force her into her burkha."

And giving her younger son flying lessons.

dda6ga dda6ga said...

live by the sword (of the prophet), die by the sword....

rhhardin said...

Beat your words into ploughshares.

Robert Cook said...

"Your comment had nothing to do with the article..it was about the commentors."

My comment had to do with the commenters drearily typical snark and Muslim blame-casting regarding this national calamity in Pakistan. The commenters' remarks reveals they didn't even bother reading the article. You assumed I'm blaming the U.S., which shows you also didn't read the article.

TreeJoe said...

Ok Ann, here's a serious comment:

I applaud this fasting requirement. All people benefit from the exercise of discipline and there are few more basic acts of will than the deprivation of food and water.

And research has consistently shown that fasting has numerous benefits and - longer term - a lower calorie diet leads to longer life on average.

There is nothing wrong with a hundred million people practicing daytime fasting in the desert in 120 degree heat, especially when those people are acclimated to the temperatures. However, you've got to have a buddy system and take care of the sick, elderly, infants, and pregnant. You are also in effect impairing work capacity in a major way.

Since this is government mandated as well (i.e. you get fined if you break fast during the day during Ramadan) then yes, the government should be forced to provide that care.

As far as I can see, we have a good practice poorly implemented and guided.

Gahrie said...

Islam needs both a Martin Luther and an Ignatius Loyola, modern versions.

An Islamic Martin Luther would be quickly killed, and the Islamic version of Loyola is Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab.

Hagar said...

Pakistan is a "majority Moslem country" overall, but at the time of partition a large swath of "Moslem minority" lands were included with Pakistan. These were/are the most prosperous areas of the country and were "given" to Pakistan in order to make it a self-sufficient viable state.

The Moslems of Pakistan are also a quite varied lot.

Mark said...

Hagar, which exact parts of the country were those? Which cities?

Or are your claims like the Russia Trump association, aka unsourced, unproven, and partisan?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Was there a point to the WashPost story?

It is hot sometimes in Pakistan? Duh. It was 114 in our region a few days ago and most people don't have A/C. Where is the outcry from the world about our suffering? Not that I expect any....it is our problem to solve.

Religious people do stupid stuff? Duh.

It is OUR fault? and WE need to do something? Nope.

Religious fanatics or those who take their religion to extremes are all over the world and in all religions. Snake handlers get bit, Christians in the Philippines crucify themselves, Voodoo exorcisms that kill the subject and so on and so on. I feel bad for those people, but as I've been told when I do stupid stuff..."You did it to yourself".

Yes. The Muslims do have some religious leaders who council safe and sane actions in regards to modifying the fasting and drinking of water. Moderation is good. Do the people KNOW that there are less strict interpretations? DO they care that there are? The trend towards fanaticism and overly strict adherence to rules is becoming more prevalent in the Muslim world.

And to Cook. NO I did not read the article. It is in the Washington Post behind a paywall. and....it is the Washington Post.

cubanbob said...

A country as poor as Packistan should have devoted the resources it has spent on nuclear weapons and missiles on nuclear power plants and clean water and sanitation.

David Begley said...

DBQ

The point of the story was to generate sympathy for them. And also to advance the open borders agenda of the Dem party and Jeff Bezos.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ David Begley

That's what I assumed being that it is the Washington Post publishing this article. Thanks for confirming :-D

William said...

I live down the street from a huge mosque. The local supermarket has a number of Muslim women working as clerks and cashiers. They're working in air conditioned surroundings but they're handling food and water all day. It must drive them crazy.......They don't wear burqas, but many of them wear restrictive garments. I don't think such garb would be comfortable on a hot, humid day.......NYC must pose a lot of temptations for a Muslim woman. I don't know how the dynamic plays out, but I would bet that there are coercive measures --many beyond social pressure--in their families and communities......Cook would, no doubt, come to the aid of a Muslim woman who gets hassled for wearing a hijab. Would he come to the aid of a Muslim woman who gets hassled for NOT wearing a hijab......I think ridiculing the the many bizarre practices in Islam is a useful part of Americanization.. People change their behavior when they're subjected to shame and ridicule. I don't know when nuns stopped wearing those elaborate habits, but they stopped. I think the reason they did so was because such attire felt silly and medieval.

Robert Cook said...

"And to Cook. NO I did not read the article. It is in the Washington Post behind a paywall. and....it is the Washington Post."

I don't subscribe to the Post and I was able to read the story. If you're going to comment on a story without reading it, you really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

Robert Cook said...

"The point of the story was to generate sympathy for them. And also to advance the open borders agenda of the Dem party and Jeff Bezos."

You also didn't read the story, even if you let your eyes scan it.

Hagar said...

@Mark,
Nisid Hajari: "Midnight's Furies" about the break-up of the British Raj in 1947.

I do not understand your reaction. Famously, Kashmir remained with India though very much a "Moslem majority" province. Why not admit the opposite also occurred when the guns fell silent?

As for the the Pakistani Moslems bein a varied lot: Remember Benazir Bhutto? Still the best-looking head of state ever. And Bhutto was very much a Moslem though obviously not of the Wahhabi variety!

tcrosse said...

I don't subscribe to the Post and I was able to read the story. If you're going to comment on a story without reading it, you really don't know what you're talking about, do you?


A non-subscriber is allotted a certain number of stories each month before the paywall shuts down. It's late in the month, so some of us have used up our quota. Unless you get extra stories for being sanctimonious.

Lyle Smith said...

A Muslim friend of mine lost 15 pounds during last year's Ramadan, and he was lean to begin with.

Robert Cook said...

Is it sanctimonious to take issue with people making presumptuous and insulting remarks blaming suffering people when they haven't even read the story that discusses the situation? If one hasn't read the article and doesn't know the circumstances, one should have the self-restraint and humility not to reveal one's ignorance of the matter.

Michael K said...

"Blogger Mark said...
Michael and his 'last bastion of polio' is showing his lack of medical expertise. So sad when aging affects the brain and memory.

Or was it just an attempt to slam Islam?"

Ritmo, did you wake up early and don a new sockpuppet ?

If you knew anything about epidemiology, you would not sound so stupid.

Ramanan Laxminarayan and Nirmal Kumar Ganguly provide Health Affairs readers with a disturbing review of vaccine coverage in India—a country with a third of the world’s unvaccinated children.

Islam is not mentioned but everyone knows why the rate is so low in the Muslim state.


rhhardin said...

If one hasn't read the article and doesn't know the circumstances, one should have the self-restraint and humility not to reveal one's ignorance of the matter.

Thurber calls that the cross-country use of the indefinite one.

mtrobertslaw said...

Derrida on anything is suspect.

Darrell said...

Sad.

rhhardin said...

Derrida says only atheists can pray.

Believers are just ordering pizza.

Mark said...

Ah, the accusations of being someone else, despite having posted to this blog for 6 years.

Michael K goes for the ad hominem atrack because his insinuatons about Muslims must be kept subtle to avoid outright racism and thus banning.

80% of the population of Uttar Pradesh are Hindu, but he blames the Muslim minority. Of course he does.

Similarly, fewer than 44% of children are properly vaccinated in a country that is 79.8% Hindu, he blames it on the 14% of the population that is Muslim.

Anything to smear Islam, right Mikey?

Laslo Spatula said...

Scientology has Tom Cruise to represent the Best of the Religion.

Who is the Muslim World's Tom Cruise?

I am Laslo.

Darrell said...

You can lead a Mark to knowledge
but you can't make him think.

Eminem 6 Years Wrong

Inga said...

Of course there is not an ounce of pity or sympathy for Muslims, not even women and children refugees. Because those Muslim
children will grow up to be terrorists, don't you know? The level of Islamaphobia in these comments sections is only a reflection of the Islamophobia among the right in general. It's not surprising. Obviously Althouse knows her commenters well in this regard.

It's good to read that this cleric has openly spoken of exceptions for the ill and infirm in regard to the fasting. It's a good sign. Hopefully the trend toward fundamentalism in Islam is waning. Fundamentalism is a form of extremism, dangerous in all religions and philosophies.

Ironclad said...

In Ramadan the medical problems increase dramatically as diabetics don't take medicine to avoid "eating" and people refuse shots for the same reason. Couple that with overeating at night to make up means most gain weight after the "fasting month". It's a month lost due to low productivity and turning night into day. Even schools close or delay tests - making it hellish when people need to meet western calendar dates with a lunar floating month system.

But the real kicker is that it isn't voluntary. You can be arrested for drinking or eating in public - Muslim or not.

MikeR said...

https://books.google.com/books?id=e3cOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=richard+francis+burton+ramazan&source=bl&ots=wWREA6Tci2&sig=f7PdIKLk8Dg1PooyccWP_ZA8-k4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_0oCvr-PUAhULNiYKHVD6Dl0Q6AEIWDAK#v=onepage&q=richard%20francis%20burton%20ramazan&f=false
"The Mosques are crowded with a sulky, grumbling population, making themselves offensive to one another on earth, whilst working their way to heaven..."

JAORE said...

Honest question:

If lots of water and a/c stations are provided, would many Muslim religious leaders consider this inappropriate? After all some degree of sacrifice seems central to many religions. Where would the break point lie?

PeterK said...

and why should we be concerned about this? I don't expect our government to provide aid, the Pakistani government needs to step up.
that said this happens all the time during Ramadan throughout the Middle East. It disrupts business operations. I worked in the ME back in the 90s, Arab employees were allowed to leave work at 2 pm, and they worked in A/C supported buildings. What people dont realize is that they get up early and have a big breakfast, and then in the evenings they have a yuuuge dinner called Iftar. Think of Thanksgiving dinner every day for 30 days.

There are many ways to avoid fasting during Ramadan

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Robert Cook,

How typical that the commenters here are criticizing those suffering from the heat and shortage of water for their own predicament.

It's not a "shortage of water"; it's an enforced ban on drinking any water during daylight hours. Kindly learn the difference.

Michael said...

Inga
Straw man. Commenters are not blaming the individuals. Conservatives do not feel the need to prance about the obvious which is that it is horrible, whatever the reason, to have people suffer. Alt-Right people would like to focus on the reason for the suffering and in this case there are two suspects: the government or the strict enforcement of the dietary restrictions during Ramadan. Or both. The punishment for breaking the fast varies from place to place but Pakistan has perhaps the harshest. There does not appear to be a live and let live ethic that would be like turning the eye from meat eating Catholics on Fridays back in the old days. Peter K above correctly points out that the "fast" is a daytime fast which is broken at the end of the light by a big meal. There is another before dawn also substantial.

St. George said...

Ann--

I'm sorry you found my earlier comment disrespectful to Islam. You ask us to respond as Christians would.

I'm a Christian and an American. Western civilization faces a unique threat from Islam. It always has. It is presently exploiting Western tolerance towards its own ends.

Part of the problem with the debate is that the gatekeepers, i.e. editors like yourself, won't tell the full story to their readers. Or won't even let readers talk about the issue

There is no separation of church and state in a country run by an Islamic government. It is impossible. (There is a difference between Egypt and Islamic rule Saudi Arabia and Iran.) Nonetheless, the level of political and social oppression, so far as I know, in all Arab nations is horrifying. Islam is incapable of a Reformation, because the Quran, being the directly transmitted word of God, is not subject by believers to the sort of exegesis we are accustomed to in Christianity. For example, there are numerous references in the Qu'ran (and hadith) saying that it is okay for a man to beat his wife. Mind you, this is God saying it is okay, not a prophet or someone writing a history, as in the Old Testament.

David Begley said...

Well put, St. George.

I would only add that Islam is keen on conquest and is more of a socio-political system than a religion. And Islam uses the better angels of our nature against us.

St. George said...

To follow up on my post above, today we learn that the Iran's Islamic government fired a ballistic missile at a target in the desert shaped like a Star of David. How are we to disconnect our political and religious view as Christians from such an act? We are all wary of analogies to the 1930s? Are we not to comment on this because as Christians we must turn the other cheek and through our silence we show our respect?!

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/449091/israel-iran-star-david-missile-test!

Jupiter said...

"Because those Muslim children will grow up to be terrorists, don't you know?"

Yes, Inga, some of us do know.

Kevin said...

The level of Islamaphobia in these comments sections is only a reflection of the Islamophobia among the right in general. It's not surprising.

You think you don't get similar comments at the NYT on articles about Christians? if you're unsure, read the comments about Hobby Lobby, Little Sisters of the Poor, or Chick-fil-a for starters.

i'm fine with you calling out individuals for their particular comments, that can be very instructive. But let's not start painting with a broad brush, lest we get paint all over ourselves.

RichardJohnson said...

Once written, twice
I am glad to see that Ann is finally standing up to some of the conservative commenters who spew bigoted hate.

Once written, twice is writing from Comodoro Rivadavia, Argentina- in the heart of Patagonia. In the late 1800s, Argentines conquered Patatonia from the Indians, courtesy of such maneuvers as "poisoned barbecues." The Argentines would invite Indians to barbecues, to make peace with them, and feed them poisoned meat. I was told this when I worked in Argentina. It was no hidden secret.

Argentines have a saying comparing them to neighboring countries:
Bolivians came from the hills
Brazilians came from the trees
Argentines came from the boat.



Brazilians from the trees- monkeys. Rather racist, that.
BTW, Bolivians tend to view Argentines as arrogant racists. (Which points out the futility of Che trying to "liberate" Bolivia.) (Arrogant: such as the Argentine saying that "South America begins north of Cordoba." Cordoba is about 600 miles south of the Bolivian border. We aren't like those dumb Indians...) As I worked with Bolivians in both Bolivia and in Argentina, I am simply reporting what I observed.


To consider how Argentines of the Jewish faith are treated, perhaps the best example is what an Argentine of the Jewish faith told me of his reaction to visiting the US: "They treated me like a person." (Not just as a Joooo, like in Argentina.)

I suspect that anti-Semitism in Argentina was stronger in the military than among civilians. An Argentine of the Jewish faith told me of taking a cruise in the Rio de la Plata delta,between Buenos Aires and Mar del Plata, which was the custom for recent high school graduates. On the cruise he met the daughter of a general, who was rather blatant in her anti-Semitism. She didn't realize he was Jewish. I don't believe he encountered this on a daily basis growing up in BA. Or consider the military tale in the '70s of a Jewish plot to take over Patagonia. While this tale originated with the military, I heard civilians uncritically parrot it. I suspect that this anti-Semitic strain in the military has died down as the influence of the military has fortunately diminished.

I was once invited into a home in Argentina where the living room wall featured a prominent picture of Adolf Hitler. It was there because of Crazy Grandpa, I was told, which indicated to me that the rest of the family didn't share Crazy Grandpa's opinion of Adolf. Nonetheless, I have never seen a picture of Adolf Hitler displayed in a home in the US.


An Argentine accusing you of bigotry is rather like a KKK member protesting racism. Definitely an example of high comedy.

Que payaso sos. What a clown you are.

David Begley said...

I should be clear. Of course I feel bad for these people in 120 heat and no a/c. But this Ramadan fasting is a problem of their own making. God never ordered it and He never would.

As someone else noted above, the Pakistan government made the decision to build nuclear weapons. The spending of scarce resources on nukes makes no sense, I find it hard to believe that in 2017 Pakistan can't do better on getting water and power to people at a reasonable cost. I would further add that the Left would probably attribute the hot temps there to global warming, I consider CAGW to be a complete scam.

So what was the point of the WaPo story? Everything in WaPo is political and with a Left agenda attached. In 2017 the American government needs to first look out for the American people. If the Gates Foundation wants to electrify Pakistan, then go do it.

Gahrie said...

The level of Islamaphobia in these comments sections is only a reflection of the Islamophobia among the right in general. It's not surprising.

When the Koran tells Muslims to convert, kill or enslave you, and to destroy Western Civilization and replace it with Islam...what's wrong with being afraid of Islam?

Bad Lieutenant said...


Robert Cook said...
Is it sanctimonious to

You mean, if YOU do it, Robert? Since sanctimonious is the word one sees in the dictionary when one turns to the page with your picture, the answer is probably yes.

Michael K said...

Similarly, fewer than 44% of children are properly vaccinated in a country that is 79.8% Hindu, he blames it on the 14% of the population that is Muslim.

Anything to smear Islam, right Mikey?


I was on a plane all day so I thought I would come back and see how nasty Mark has gotten in my absence,

The children who are not properly immunized in India are predominately Muslim for the reason I described.

I accept your assertion you are not Ritmo but you seem to be adopting his techniques of nasty commenting.

Among other things, I am not your "Mikey." That's right out of Ritmo's instruction manual in how to appear clever while being a fool.

It is very interesting to me to see the political left adopt Islam as a sort of protected class.

I have nothing against people who were raised Muslim and figured out that it is not a viable system in the 21st century,

Fouad Ajami and Ayan Hirsi Ali are/were brilliant people who have recognized that Islam is a dysphoric political system that will never adapt to modern life.

I don't "hate Muslims" as the fools assert. I feel very sorry for them.

In Iran less than 2% of the population now attends Mosques. Their population is crashing. as young Iranian women refuse to gbring babies into that malignant system.

F Scott FitzGerald once said "An artist is someone who can hold two contradictory ideas at the same time and not go crazy.

I would add that Democrats seem to be doing the same thing.

They want gay marriage and transexual rights at the same time they support a group that throws gays off buildings and practices FGM on little girls.

Only a leftist could reconcile those beliefs.


Michael K said...

the Pakistan government made the decision to build nuclear weapons. The spending of scarce resources on nukes makes no sense, I find it hard to believe that in 2017 Pakistan can't do better on getting water and power to people at a reasonable cost.

Absolutely agree.

Kevin said...

Was there a point to the WashPost story?

Yes, Cat Stevens doesn't have these problems. White privilege.

Mark said...

56% of Indian children are improperly immunized, yet once again they are 'predominantly' from a group that makes up only 14% of the population.

Math certainly isn't your strong suit.

I notice how you don't really respond to this, you just rant about Iran and gay marriage. Nice use of 'squirrel'

Michael K said...

"I notice how you don't really respond to this"

The time to stop "responding" to misinformation is well past.

Why are you lefties so devoted to defending Islam ?