"Ammon and Ryan Bundy and five of their followers, charged in the armed takeover of a federally owned Oregon wildlife sanctuary in January, were acquitted Thursday of federal conspiracy and weapons charges... There was a Wild West quality to the episode, with armed men in cowboy
hats taking on federal agents in a tussle over public lands and putting
out a call for aid, only to see their insurrection fizzle...."
The NYT reports.
October 27, 2016
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73 comments:
An example of jury nullification, it seems.
There is a back story that may involve Harry Reid.
The jury in the Ruby Ridge case not only acquitted Randy Weaver but recommended indictment of Lon Horiuchi, the FBI sniper who killed Weaver's wife.
Waco had a back story.
Both cases involved the Clinton Administration. Odd, isn't it ?
Michael K: thanks.
I guess we'll have lots of opportunities for jury nullification in the coming years.
We're all protesters now.
People don't like to be colonized, even the colonizers are really sincere liberals who went to the very best colleges.
After people like Corzine and Hillary dont even get charged with federal crimes, what jury is going to
convict defendants of this bullshit? And give them their guns back since they were acquitted.
The insurrection hasn't fizzled, it has just been driven underground again.
You coastal city slickers really don't understand flyover country, especially the West.
...And it turns out the Feds had 15 informants inside the Bundy operation.
Can you say entrapment?
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/defense_rests_with_witness_con.html
"...and give them their guns back..." But Finicum is still dead.
I forget why the Feds felt they just had to shoot him.
People in Eastern Oregon are as independent as it gets. They do not want a Government anything. Government can keep its money and its ridiculous rules and just leave them alone.
11 million illegals and the Feds waste time on this shit
The Times says that the federal marshals 'restrained' attorney Mumford; the Oregonian reports that they used a stun gun or Taser on him, in a valiant (and apparently successful) effort to keep Ammon Bundy in federal custody (in consequence of an unresolved Nevada case, I guess).
"11 million illegals and the Feds waste time on this shit"
Exactly, but not from their, the feds, standpoint. Stuff like this just helps illustrate the thumb in the scale.
I can't read the NYT but I'm sure they don't see the connection between this case and Trump.
the story is long and twisted, the prosecutor was a perfect zampolit, the marshall used to be part of the blm, with long standing gripes against the malheur clan, there were as many fbi informers as occupiers,
At point the deplorables have simply had it with the federal government. The Feds don't understand why the people don't trust them--and their failure to understand that is the entire point. A few deplorables died at the hands of the Feds on this one.
you know those spaghetti westerns were le van cleef was the corrupt fmr union colonel, it's kind of like that,
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/10/27/breaking-jury-acquits-leaders-of-oregon-standoff-of-federal-charges/
Both cases involved the Clinton Administration.
Actually, Ruby Ridge occurred August 21–31, 1992, near the end of George H. W. "Read My Lips" Bush's presidency.
In other words...
GET OFF MY LAWN!
Somehow, I doubt the BLM will take the hint.
With fifteen informants, there were more Feds than Bundys in the Bundy crew.
"You coastal city slickers really don't understand flyover country, especially the West."
Exactly. Now, I have to go to CTH to learn the back story although I have heard part of it.
As I recall, it involved Reid, his children and Chinese developers of solar installations.
Finicum was shot because he acted in a threatening way towards an armed person. If I was on the jury for the agent who shot Finicum and the video we have seen is an accurate representation then I would have voted not guilty for him, too.
The Federal argues in this case seemed extreme. If the jury didn't go for the prosecution's case, fine. How many of the "Occupy Wall Street" protesters were prosecuted for various illegal acts? I don't remember hearing about any.
one has to resort to the modern version of mimeographed pamphlet, because all of the outlets are totally compromised, they even deny their own facts to follow the narrative,
Iam curious: If found "Not Guilty", why were they not released??????
James Pawlak said.. "Iam curious: If found "Not Guilty", why were they not released?"
I believe they face unrelated charges in Nevada.
The jury in the Ruby Ridge case not only acquitted Randy Weaver but recommended indictment of Lon Horiuchi, the FBI sniper who killed Weaver's wife.
And excellent book on Ruby Ridge is Every Knee Shall Bow by Jess Walter.
>
OUR SYSTEM is most frequently characterized as a dictatorship or, more precisely, as the dictatorship of a political bureaucracy over a society which has undergone economic and social leveling. I am afraid that the term "dictatorship," regardless of how intelligible it may otherwise be, tends to obscure rather than clarify the real nature of power in this system. We usually associate the term with the notion of a small group of people who take over the government of a given country by force; their power is wielded openly, using the direct instruments of power at their disposal, and they are easily distinguished socially from the majority over whom they rule. One of the essential aspects of this traditional or classical notion of dictatorship is the assumption that it is temporary, ephemeral, lacking historical <roots. Its existence seems to be bound up with the lives of those who established it. It is usually local in extent and significance, and regardless of the ideology it utilizes to grant itself legitimacy, its power derives ultimately from the numbers and the armed might of its soldiers and police. The principal threat to its existence is felt to be the possibility that someone better equipped in this sense might appear and overthrow it.<
http://www.vaclavhavel.cz/showtrans.php?cat=eseje&val=2_aj_eseje.html&typ=HTML
N.B.The Federal Government originally got its Uber Ales Mojo it displays to this day from an Illinois President in Washington who sent armed men to kill anyone in their path that resisted them and steal whatever they wanted.
And General Sherman's Army of the Tennessee obeyed President Lincoln all along the March To The Sea.
President Ronald Reagan - Liberty State Park [Pt. 1]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbroTjVm8Bw
It doesn't help that the elites really do consider themselves a ruing class, and not representative of the average citizen. They believe that their job is to correct your thinking and behavior on, gosh, just about every topic, from race relations to your TV viewing habits.
If you protest or resist, then you are really no better than the people who used to rape and abuse slaves. In fact, you are identical to them (see any liberal commentary on Cliven Bundy for examples of this).
Now, how do you think the federal government should treat people who abuse and rape their fellow citizens?
Get back in line, keep your head down, treat the officer with respect, and shut up.
Michael K said...
There is a back story that may involve Harry Reid.
There is a front story the may involve Harry Reid.
The AP tells us that "U.S. marshals tackled attorney Marcus Mumford to the ground, used a stun gun on him several times and arrested him."
Um. Is that normal in federal court? Marshals doing that to the defense lawyer? It is reported that he shouted at the judge, but there is no report of any violent action or threats on his part. Maybe I'm naive but I find that shocking.
jaed:
I wonder: were the judge and the U.S. marshals all pissed off at the jury and defendants and decided (not necessarily consciously) to take it out on Mr Mumford?
lawyers:
Are judges immune from lawsuits if they misbehave in the courtroom by (e.g.) encouraging U.S. marshals to grossly overreact to provocation?
...And it turns out the Feds had 15 informants inside the Bundy operation.
Can you say entrapment?
Q. How do you pick out the FBI informant at a Klan rally?
A. He's the one with the bombs.
The NYT uses mugshots of the seven defendants as their featured photos while reporting on their acquittal. You really have to admire that level of snarky insensitivity. There are occupy movements that the left thinks are terrific, and then there are the occupy movements that they hate. For extra credit, identify the differences between these two categories.
I live in Oregon and I'm familiar with the area where the occupation occurred. My view of the occupation is probably different because of that proximity. It's a much more nuanced situation than a simple telling of the tale suggests. The area has been Federal property since the Paiute Indians were forced out in 1878. Teddy Roosevelt designated the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge by proclamation in 1908. Important to a huge citizen constituency, it's a key natural resource for hundreds of thousands of birds during annual migration.
If any group has a complaint it would be the Paiutes whose land it was prior to the arrival of settlers. Today, the area is managed by a consortium of stakeholders under an agreement, carefully worked out over a number of years, of the Paiute tribe, federal agencies and ranchers.
The outcome of the jury trial doesn't change facts on the ground. Managing the Wildlife Refuge and contiguous areas is a complex task being handled in a way as open and fair to the parties involved as I can imagine possible. It's not as simple as the federal government imposing unjust restrictions on ranchers, there are many conflicting claims to take into account.
While ranchers have legitimate concerns about management of their lands, for the above reasons, IMO the Malhuer Refuge was not the ideal place to protest ranchers' issues. I haven't followed the legal matters closely, but maybe the complications regarding rights in the occupied region contributed to acquittal.
BTW the Finicum incident was well publicized in Oregon, the video recording was played extensively. By all appearances he chose not to be arrested when confronted, and was shot.
At the time there were disturbing questions about FBI agents not following proper procedure in the course of confronting Finicum, I'm not sure if it's been determined if FBI misconduct was implicated in the death of Finicum.
"Actually, Ruby Ridge occurred August 21–31, 1992, near the end of George H. W. "Read My Lips" Bush's presidency."
Fair enough. The bureaucracy doesn't change when a Republican is president. However, the trial was in the Clinton Administration.
Clinton went after the cops in the Rodney King incident with a double jeopardy prosecution. Sort of like the Obama admin. still plans for the Baltimore cops. And the cop in the Michael Brown case except it was too ridiculous even for Holder.
Jrapdx, nearly every confrontation with the government is nuanced. To me, the root cause is the federal government owning land that should belong to the States.
as I recall about weaver, is they tried to get him to sting a local militant group and he refused, and ignored the summons, a tragedy of errors, which touched off a greater prairie fire,
" ignored the summons, "
I don't think it was ever delivered, then the ATF barricaded his house, which was off the roads. The FBI sent agents into his property and the son;s dog found them. They shot the dog and the balloon went up. Horiuchi was a sniper who killed Weaver's wife whike she was holding a baby standing behind the door.
Waco was similar as it occurred during ATF budget hearings. Koresh went into town to get his mail and they could have arrested him when he was alone but they chose a big scene to support budget negotiations.
you're probably right, I do remember the atf budget issues from the spectator back then,
yes, they pined for that islamist ring in upstate new york, who were actually plotting attacks, but they were the right kind of 'bitter clinger'
This thread is good stuff.
Loons are as loons do.
The Portland local paper reports that the judge tried to get the marshals to stop. It certainly doesn't sound as though they were acting on her order:
U.S. District Judge Anna J. Brown told him that there was a U.S. Marshal's hold on him from a pending federal indictment in Nevada. "If there's a detainer, show me,'' Mumford stood, arguing before the judge. Suddenly, a group of about six U.S. Marshals surrounded Mumford at his defense table. The judge directed them to move back but moments later, the marshals grabbed on to him. "What are you doing?'' Mumford yelled, as he struggled and was taken down to the floor. As deputy marshals yelled, "Stop resisting,'' the judge demanded, "Everybody out of the courtroom now!''
WTF.
Yes, but LaVoy Finicum is still dead. Shot in the back by state police for trespassing?
Hoodlum: "Finicum was shot because he acted in a threatening way towards an armed person."
Finicum was shot in the back. He did not draw his weapon. We've all seen the video. What was he threatening to do, back into them?
Finicum was a "deplorable." From a lefty perspective, nobody was hurt.
it's a land grab plain and simple, but the thief has govt documentation, sort of like kelo but for certain parties, with conflicts of interests,
Loons are as loons do.
Global warming does have unforeseen consequences
"Loons are as loons do."
Some loons prefer freedom from the iron boot. Known as deplorables in today's world.
Owen said...
"...and give them their guns back..." But Finicum is still dead.
I forget why the Feds felt they just had to shoot him.
"Gentlemen! We have to do something to save our phony baloney jobs!"
"Ammon and Ryan Bundy and five of their followers, charged in the armed takeover of a federally owned Oregon wildlife sanctuary in January, were acquitted Thursday of federal conspiracy and weapons charges... There was a Wild West quality to the episode, with armed men in cowboy hats taking on federal agents in a tussle over public lands and putting out a call for aid, only to see their insurrection fizzle...."
I notice no federal charges being brought for the pipeline protestors. Odd. The police have requested help and the DoJ has told them no.
Damikesc, of course not, because Obama is such a lovely man.
Blogger hombre said...
Finicum was a "deplorable." From a lefty perspective, nobody was hurt.
10/28/16, 12:25 AM
As Howard said about Terry and me on another thread, NHI...no humans involved. I guess that covers 30m deplorables as well. You can do pretty much what you like to non-humans. The Trump voters will be Bill Ayers' first slice for the camps. Maybe that's why the chickenshit cowards are running away from him.
PBandJ_Ombudsman said...
This thread is good stuff.
Loons are as loons do.
I'm glad you've finally taken a stand on the "occupy" movement.
This is interesting:
"[U.S. District Judge Anna J.] Brown called the matter "a very unique scenario." She ruled that she wouldn't order the government to identify any of its 15 confidential sources..."
Defense lawyer Matthew Schindler, who represents defendant Kenneth Medenbach, argued that the defense team had the right to know who the "mystery people'' were who brought the 22 long guns and 12 handguns to the refuge that prosecutors had FBI agents parade before jurors. Schindler pointed out that prosecutors and the FBI didn't identify who brought most the guns."
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/defense_rests_with_witness_con.html
traditionalguy said...
N.B.The Federal Government originally got its Uber Ales Mojo it displays to this day from an Illinois President in Washington who sent armed men to kill anyone in their path that resisted them and steal whatever they wanted.
Originally you say? I believe George Washington at the Whiskey Rebellion led more soldiers than he had during the War of Independence.
And General Sherman's Army of the Tennessee obeyed President Lincoln all along the March To The Sea.
10/27/16, 10:34 PM
And I used to think that was a more or less unalloyed good thing. Which you seem to do as well, some days.
U.S. District Judge Anna J.] Brown called the matter "a very unique scenario."
As opposed to somewhat unique, or partially unique?
Unique does not require a modifier. If something is unique, that's it.
My Friday campaign to stamp out needless adjectives continues.
Interesting that the Gold King Mine waster water spill happened during that time near Silverton, CO. in 2015. Another disaster committed by overzealous inspectors and bureaucrats flexing their muscles against flyover rubes protesting heaving handed bureaucrats power grabs. Another BLM land grab occurred on the Red River in Texas as the bureaucrats claimed the river bed extended 1 mile from the banks. Seems the feds were in the mood to be creative in taking state lands to control coal mining and fracking. Might be a stretch of the imagination but the timing is curious especially given the Government's activism against every energy source except wind and solar power.
No government bureaucrats were taken to task for the Gold Mine pollution disaster encompassing three states along the pristine Animus river watershed. The least we can assume is that the Federal government will use the flimsiest and eye-brow raising tactics to extend federal ownership of lands under control of the states with no accountability when their plans go south. Finicum's death looked to me like an execution since all the LEO's were a distance away, not using small squad tactics and overzealous once again in shooting to kill. In any case, this is an example of the problems giving feds military grade equipment to bureaucrats justifying their militarization. This tragedy, in my opinion, could have been handled with a phone call and a meeting over a cup of coffee not in the middle of the wilderness on a snowy road ambush. Some of the folks on this site have no idea what old west values are and their love of the land whether Paiute indian or ranchers.
"My Friday campaign to stamp out needless adjectives continues."
Like airplane flights that range from full, to very full, extremely full, all the way to completely full.
Amazing the defense got acquittals from a jury in Portland. People in Portland (West side of Oregon) don't care much for folks in Eater Oregon. I am pretty shocked, I used to practice in Portland.
damikesc
I would imagine that in Oregon, it was Citizens vs Fed and In North Dakota it's citizens vs Corp. and Feds.
jaed said...
The AP tells us that "U.S. marshals tackled attorney Marcus Mumford to the ground, used a stun gun on him several times and arrested him."
...
Maybe I'm naive but I find that shocking.
10/27/16, 10:55 PM
So did Mumford...
I know, I should be ashamed but I just couldn't help myself.
Todd: :-D
Excellent, more please.
So my question is: are you in danger from the feds if you defend people like the Bundy's? Mumford (I know his wife, very nice girl) certainly seems to have represented his clients very well. And violent response by the Feds? Intimidation?
--Vance
Todd: "shocking."
For SHAME!!! ;-)
They do not want a Government anything.
Except the right to graze their cattle for free on Federal land, cut Federal timber for free on roads the government builds them, get water from federal water projects at little or no cost, have the government fight forest fires for them, have the government give them land just because they happen to live near it. (notice they want the Federal government to hand over the land to local control--not a word about paying for it)
Freaking hypocrites.
Just think what the Feds could have done with all that firepower in Chicago or Baltimore over the same time period. Could have saved a few lives.
The competition between ranchers and the green blight (i.e. green industry and environmental lobbies) for land rights is fast and furious. #CeciliaTheCow
"This thread is good stuff.
Loons are as loons do." - PB and J
And what are you going to do about it, boy? Crap on some cop cars? Rape and/or murder a fellow Occupy nutjob? Maybe assault some of your fifth-column brethren?
I mean, those illegal Occupy camps accomplished so, so much. Maybe it's time for another run.
Do tell.
Freder Frederson said...
They do not want a Government anything.
Except the right to graze their cattle for free on Federal land, cut Federal timber for free on roads the government builds them, get water from federal water projects at little or no cost, have the government fight forest fires for them, have the government give them land just because they happen to live near it. (notice they want the Federal government to hand over the land to local control--not a word about paying for it)
Except, of course, the federal government makes money when timber is harvested from federal owned lands, And shares it with local communities. But when they change the rules- this happens.
There's also this as to why some federal lands DON'T make money on timber sales. Seems if you inject the federal government into things, inefficiencies abound.
Harold linked to an article that pointed to the financial devastation that happens when the feds end timber sales. We see the remnants of that in NW MT, where the town we live in went from three lumber mills to one. It has been better than a decade now, and the town, and county, have yet to recover. You lose the guys cutting down the trees, the ones driving the trucks, and the ones cutting it into lumber.
You could argue that the land doesn't belong to the communities, but rather, to the American people, and, so, the community should suffer for the good of the rest of the country. But, the other thing that comes with the timber industry is the thinning of the forests. For much of the last century, fires have been suppressed on much of the federal lands in the lower 48, and, notably here, in the west. The big stands of Ponderosa Pine are designed by evolution to essentially burn at the lower levels every decade or two, burning up the fuel on the ground, but not really harming the healthy mature trees that much, thanks to their thick bark. But, after a century of fire suppression, there is enough fuel load on the ground, that the mature, healthy, trees can be ignited, and when they do, they burn hot enough that they can set the neighboring mature, healthy trees on fire. Fire a bit east of us ran ten miles in one night, jumping from 3,000 to > 20,000 acres. And then had close to 1,000 people fighting it for much of the next month. Because these are crown fires, they are extremely hard to fight and control, with embers, in the right wind, flying up to, maybe, a quarter mile.
It seems that more and more, you can expect air quality in the NW to plummet every Aug. and Sept., as the air becomes full of smoke from the fires to the west. We not only get smoke from our own fires, but get it from fires all the way across WA almost the Pacific, almost 500 miles away. All the make urban environmentalists happy about our communal use of our natural resources. They, of course, don't have to breath the smoke that their policies create, safe in their air conditioned enclaves thousands of miles away from the fires.
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