The Dallas police chief, David O. Brown, said the gunman who was killed had “said he was upset at Black Lives Matter, said he was upset about the recent police shootings. The suspect said he was upset at white people; the suspect said he wanted to kill white people.” He was especially upset at white police officers, said Chief Brown.... who is black....My link goes to the NYT which posits that this incident has "injected a volatile new dimension into the anguished debate over racial disparities in American criminal justice." That is, these murderers undercut Black Lives Matter by complicating the victims-and-brutes presentation.
“There has been a vicious, calculated and despicable attack on law enforcement,” President Obama told reporters Friday morning in Warsaw....
July 8, 2016
5 Dallas police officers shot dead by snipers at a Black Lives Matter rally.
7 other police shot, plus 2 civilians.
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341 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 341 of 341I nice rule is that when bigotry is the same as common sense, bigotry isn't the problem.
Southern city, Afghanistan veteran, gun owner - Obama's fault.
What was hostile or fluid or split-second about either of these situations? The man in Louisiana was simply outside a convenience market selling cds, as he had been doing regularly for five years. The police created the situation by jumping the man. His gun was in his pocket and he never went for it or resisted. The police were on top of him with their full body weight and the one officer simply took his firearm out of its holster and put it to the man's chest and fired twice. It is very visibly deliberate and not done in a moment of panic or "split-second decision" making. The gentleman in Minnesota volunteered the information he had a firearm and the police officer immediately pulled his firearm and within seconds fired four bullets into the man.
And you know all of this, how? Were you there? If not, why are you so quick to believe the initial stories that come out, when just about every shooting incident that's caused outrage in the past 5 years has turned out to be justified? Answer - because you believe the narrative first.
At this point the narrative is 'white cops murder black men'. It doesn't matter that the cop might be black, Asian or non-white. Who cares, when you have to push a narrative that divides people.
Fair enough, but why aren't the victims of baseless police violence given that benefit of the doubt, either by the police before they discharge their firearms or by the media and public after the victim has been killed?
They ARE getting the "benefit of the doubt". Even when it's not baseless. The two situations in question are examples of that. Do you think the media isn't giving them that benefit of the doubt? And the reason cops don't is because it's their lives on the line. If you're a cop and you give the citizen the benefit of the doubt, you're signing your own death warrant. Imagine the situation in Minnesota: say you let him pull his weapon out, then he points it at you and shoots. That's giving him the benefit of the doubt, and you're dead. And until you've been in that situation, you have no idea how to handle it, and even then it's nearly impossible.
"If the cops tell you to do something, do it"
Hi there, JCC.
Fuck you. And fuck the pigs who demand instant obedience. May each one get what he has coming to him -- soon.
"Does she live east or west of the tracks? "
She lives about four blocks from Western and 107th. Her next door neighbors on both sides are black. one side are paramedics and fine. The other side are OK but their son was arrested for murder about 15 years ago and when the kid was younger, there were lots of friends.
We went to dinner at a nice brew pub on Western two weeks ago.
I can remember 60 years ago when the Halsted street car would pull up the steps at front and back and make a run for it through 20 blocks of Irish neighborhood. But that was drunks and not murderers.
Most Polish were a bit south of South Shore in the 50s. My high school girlfriend lived about 91st and Jeffrey.
South Shore was Jews and Catholic Irish. I was a member of the Young Men's Jewish Council because the YMCA did not have a basketball court, The synagogues are all black Muslim mosques now.
Cookie has typical Marxist blind spots.
"The man in Louisiana was simply outside a convenience market selling cds, as he had been doing regularly for five years."
Career criminal and illegal gun which he was trying to pull out of his pocket while on the ground.
"The gentleman in Minnesota volunteered the information he had a firearm and the police officer immediately pulled his firearm and within seconds fired four bullets into the man."
The "gentleman" had 31 traffic stops, marijuana in the car and reached for his wallet, according to the girlfriend when he should have kept his hands on the wheel.
The cop's name is Jeronimo Yanez. The driver is not the "gentleman" you describe.
the July 6th police stop of the car with Mr. Castile and Ms. Reynolds was in the general vicinity of the previous SuperUSA convenience store armed robbery. The stop was also at the same general time of day. The stop was also the day after the police department released the CCTV footage of the suspects.
He is also a crip member with a social media presence with guns and rugs.
Uh Oh. We got a tough guy. And when your dumb ass gets shot, we won't be there to tell you we told you so.
Also, Cookie, the Minnesota traffic stop was in daylight and the tailights were fine.
I've always been able to distinguish the victims from the brutes. Hasn't been a problem. Still isn't, won't be soon. Stereotypes aren't magical, emanational penumbral, inventions. Occasional exceptions notwithstanding.
The various responses to an incident like this has become so painfully predictable.
The people who are more sympathetic to the police's situation blame the toxic environment created by BLM, along Obama and his administration, and the left in general. While people on the left who generally distrust the police place the blame on the police themselves and see this incident as the ultimate result of what they see as an ongoing and even escalating epidemic of police violence against black people. Whether or not this is factually the case is irrelevant to them, the raw emotion they feel after watching a video are truth enough for them.
And round and round we go with self-righteous recriminations and mutual hatred. But no reasonable solutions that can be agreed to by both sides ever appear.
This is why this will only get worse.
"The police were on top of him with their full body weight and the one officer simply took his firearm out of its holster and put it to the man's chest and fired twice. It is very visibly deliberate and not done in a moment of panic or "split-second decision" making."
This seems very similar to the BART police shooting of 2010.
Suspect was down and cuffed but struggling.
Policeman was allegedly trying to get his taser, was confused, grabbed his pistol instead.
Mistakes are going to happen in stressful situations, as a proportion of thousands of such.
People are going to get disoriented or panicked or enraged or lose discipline and make gross errors. These are humans, not robots.
Perfection of execution is not going to be achievable, among so many human beings, in such a large population, so there will always be cases like this. Maybe policies will reduce the rate, but they will never eliminate them. There will always be another outrage.
The other effect is that there will be less policing. This has happened at various times. It is apparent that this happened or is currently happening in Baltimore, Chicago, and elsewhere over the last two years. Local violent crime rates have increased in places where the politics has suppressed police activities.
"And round and round we go with self-righteous recriminations and mutual hatred. But no reasonable solutions that can be agreed to by both sides ever appear. "
Because there really aren't any solutions. It is what it is. Until the populations in question adopt the personal and collective discipline of the Swiss.
I was disturbed by the video of an officer shooting a black SC man who was running away after being pulled over for a broken tail light.
I was disturbed that a Cleveland officer shot a black kid in a park before making any effort to establish whether his toy gun was a real gun and before calling for backup.
I was disturbed by the video of the multiple shots fired at a black kid walking away from a bunch of police cars in Chicago and by the fact that shooting continued after the kid was lying on the street.
I was disturbed that a group of cops held down a black guy who had been selling loose cigarettes on Staten Island until he stopped breathing.
If the initial reports of this week's killings of black men in LA and MN stand up, I'm disturbed about them too.
I can't do anything about BLM, but my taxes pay for police departments. If the great majority of police officers are fine, upstanding people, as we so often are told, then it's about time the good cops ran off the hot-heads and creeps to preserve the force's credibility.
Because there really aren't any solutions. It is what it is. Until the populations in question adopt the personal and collective discipline of the Swiss.
You're absolutely correct here, but it's coincidental you bring up the Swiss. They have a very homogeneous population there, even though there are four languages spoken in Switzerland. The only other solution is to wall ourselves off (figuratively) from other cultures. The natural state of humanity is tribalism, despite what the diversity engineers want.
I can't do anything about BLM, but my taxes pay for police departments. If the great majority of police officers are fine, upstanding people, as we so often are told, then it's about time the good cops ran off the hot-heads and creeps to preserve the force's credibility.
You're making the assumption that the things you were "disturbed" about really happened the way you explained them. They didn't.
So many social engineers, but none of them wants to become a cop and change the culture. I wonder why?
Michael K:
You are of course right that South Shore was mostly Jews and Irish but the girl I dated was for sure Polish and so were her immediate neighbors and she went to South Shore HS. Maybe she lived just south of South Shore as you suggest but still went to South Shore HS? Is that possible? For the life of me I can't remember her address or precisely where she lived. It was so long ago. But I do remember what she looked like, gawd was she hot. Nice memory of the Halsted car coming through 20 blocks of Irish neighborhood. Most people nowadays don't realize that east of the tracks was Irish through-and-through. That was Studs Lonigan territory. Actually I think Studs was way east near Washington Park but I have to the book to make sure. I remember also Studs and his pals would hang out on S. Paulina. Heck I'm old enough (like you) to remember when Englwood was an Irish neighborhood. Now it's all black and the most violent neighborhood statistically in Chicago and probably in the Northern Hemisphere. I drive to work next to it on 55th.
Blogger Wayworn Wanderer said...
"If the cops tell you to do something, do it"
Hi there, JCC.
Fuck you. And fuck the pigs who demand instant obedience. May each one get what he has coming to him -- soon.
7/8/16, 2:57 PM
May God have mercy on your soul.
Cook is the Pauline Kael of the Althouse blog sans the literary flair. Anything outside the leftist cocoon is simply "beyond [his] Ken."
"... no public outcry by the masses of police officers." Well, Cookie, maybe that's because police officers are part of the criminal justice system and know that these matters are to be settled by formal procedures, not the braying of jackasses in the public arena. They also know that the arena will be filled with braying leftist jackasses, even if the shooting is a righteous one, who will attempt to exploit any position taken by "masses of police officers."
What BLM and their affiliated terrorist organizations and gangs want is no more police enforcement of: selling 'loosies'', or CDs or DVDs, or drugs, or sex; they don't want to be hassled by police about beating women, or children, or snitches; they don't want to be busted for shoplifting or B&E, or any other activities that they consider "part of the rich tradition and culture" of the inner city. In other words - they want the enforcement of most laws to cease in their neighborhoods.
@Robert Cook
"The man in Louisiana was simply outside a convenience market selling cds, as he had been doing regularly for five years."
WRONG. The man had menaced another man with his gun. The second man had called 911. Police responded.
Please stop making accusations of bigotry when you have not gone to the trouble to discover the most basic facts of the case.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/us/baton-rouge-alton-sterling-shooting/
Did the FBI find a motive yet?
"Southern city, Afghanistan veteran, gun owner - Obama's fault."
Aren't you a class act?
On contradictory requests from officers:
My spouse once had multiple guns pointed on him because they thought he had just robbed a bank. They told him to put his hands up, which he quickly did. They then asked him to get out of the car. He had his seat belt on, so he couldn't get out of the car without putting his hands down. So he thought about it and told the officers he was buckled. One came over and unbuckled his seat belt and opened the car door. Then he got out and was handcuffed quickly.
I've been thinking about that situation a lot since Castile
In just 1 and 1/2 hours I'm off work and I'll be driving west on 55th alongside Englewood then through Gage Park which is Mexican. I'll start to feel safe when I pass California and really safe when I hit Cicero (actually four blocks or so before Cicero). Pulaski used to be the "safe" street and back in the day it was Western and way back in the day as you well know it was good all the way. The boundary keeps moving west. When you get past Pulaski and start to see the jet planes from Midway virtually skimming the rooftops you know you're almost in friendly territory. As recently as the late 1990s and early 2000s south and west Marquette Park were still good, still Irish and Lithuanian, but that changed almost literally overnight. The Lithuanian restaurants on 71st and Western were still doing okay although they kept the front doors locked and you had to knock and show yourself to be let in; and the area of 63rd and S. Kezdie was still Irish and there were several Irish pubs along 63rd and Kedzie, enough to do a sort of mini-Death March in the fashion of south Western Ave. I repeat, this was as late as the late 90s and early 2000s. One of the best Irish pubs outside County Mayo was the 2511 Club at 2511 South Kedzie. The change came, as I said, very suddenly. One day a pal and I drove up and down the blocks on the south side of Marquette Park and we counted over 300 for sale signs, I am not exaggerating, before we stopped counting. I wonder if the beautiful Lithuanian BVM Church on 69th and South Washington is still attended by Lugans or if they all decamped for more hospitable parishes?
"What BLM and their affiliated terrorist organizations and gangs want "
No, what they want are controversies to increase black turnout. There aren't any concrete solutions/policies they are after. Its a campaign against rather vague sins for the sake of having a campaign. In specifics its all opportunism.
Wayworn Wanderer said...Fuck you. And fuck the pigs who demand instant obedience. May each one get what he has coming to him -- soon.
I read this as approval of the shooting of the officers. Is that what you're saying?
Thanks for the sanity post nanopod.
"Please stop making accusations of bigotry when you have not gone to the trouble to discover the most basic facts of the case." And accusations of murder, no less. But don't waste your breath. They don't need no stinkin' facts, and they'll be happy to shed a few crocodile tears for white cops' lives. Though O and John Lewis could barely bring themselves to do even that.
"they don't want to be busted for shoplifting or B&E, or any other activities that they consider "part of the rich tradition and culture" of the inner city."
To quote the mother of a choirboy, "How they gonna get money to buy clothes for school?"
Robert Cook said...What was hostile or fluid or split-second about either of these situations? The man in Louisiana was simply outside a convenience market selling cds, as he had been doing regularly for five years. The police created the situation by jumping the man. His gun was in his pocket and he never went for it or resisted. The police were on top of him with their full body weight and the one officer simply took his firearm out of its holster and put it to the man's chest and fired twice. It is very visibly deliberate and not done in a moment of panic or "split-second decision" making.
That's not an accurate description of the incident, based on the cell phone video that's out there, Cook. Have you seen it, or are you possibly just relying on a flawed description, or what? The 2 cops try to restrain/cuff the guy, they all fight/struggle, they go down to the ground, one of the cops uses a taser (I think--that part's not super-clear), one cop is more or less on top of the guy and they have one of his arms pushed/pinned against the ground "above" his head but they're all still struggling and you can't see his other hand...then one of the cops starts shouting "gun!" and the other cop draws his own gun and fires several times. The guy stops moving, both cops jump off/back/away and the guy rolls over onto his back, then the cop gets up, leans over the guy, and pulls what I guess is a gun out of the guy's pocket.
Now, I am not saying it was a "good shoot," ok? But your description, which implies the guy was fully under control and there was not an ongoing struggle and one cop dispassionately and with no reason drew his weapon and executed the guy...that's not accurate, Cook. If you watch the video the news is playing you know it's not accurate. It does not help ANYONE to make pronouncements based on obvious inaccuracies!
We don't have video yet of the other incident, just of its immediate aftermath. From the video right after and the girlfriend/videographer's description it does sound like the cop overreacted/panicked and shot the guy, but we don't have anything that shows that yet so it's too early to draw conclusions.
Do you understand how damaging it is when you try and make your point using info that's wrong/incorrect interpretations of events? My guess is that the 2nd incident was wholly unjustified/a complete mistake while the first event was tragic but justified given the circumstances (actively struggling with cops while armed). You and I might agree on 1 of these cases, but if you grossly mischaracterize the circumstances of the first I'm going to automatically doubt your opinion/characterization of the 2nd. It hurts your own cause, man.
Cookie,
You speak so definitively on what happened in Baton Rouge and Minnesota. How is that you were standing so close both times to see and hear exactly what was said and done?
Cook - I want to be fair and I realize there are 2 different video clips of the Alton Sterling shooting - this CNN article includes both clips (one starts with everyone standing, then one cop tackles Sterling and they all go down.
When they're all on the ground the cop up high gets control of Sterling's left arm and pushes it up. Right about then the cop who's low yells gun and if you look Sterling's right arm is down by his side and I don't think either cop has control of it. At any rate I'm sure that's what they'll say--that he was resisting and they though he was going for his own gun with his right arm. Remember too that the 911 call that brought them there in the first place said that Sterling brandished a pistol at a guy and "had a gun in his pocket" so I assume both cops knew that when they arrived.
Now it's perfectly reasonable to watch that and still conclude the shooting wasn't justified, ok? It's just not reasonable to say "the guy was totally under control and then for no reason at all the cop drew his weapon and killed him."
@ Cook -
As always, I wonder whether you just make this stuff up.
"...simply outside a convenience market selling cds..."
Well, no, what he did was threaten a homeless man with a gun, which he had in his pocket. The homeless man called 911 and described the suspect and said he was threatening people with the gun, and also told the 911 operator where he was carrying the gun. So when the cops arrived, they had been told the suspect had a gun and that it was in his pants pocket. And the suspect was a convicted felon, who might go back to prison if caught with a firearm - isn't that what all the current hoopla is about? gun control for criminals? - so he had a reason to resist. The suspect is first seen struggling with the cops (in the riginal video), and I believe you can hear Tasers going off (that's the first little pops). Apparently and typically, the tasers didn't do much and one of the cops tackles the suspect and both go to the ground, that cops starts yelling GUN GUN because he apparently felt the gun in the suspect's pocket. The second cop can clearly be heard telling the suspect to stop something or the cop will shoot. If you carry a gun and resist arrest, you risk getting shot. Your race is really immaterial.
"...series of videos showing black men being murdered by police officers...virtually no punishment"
Which black men are those, you know, the ones murdered by cops?
Your comments are, as usual, uninformed.
"Smith & Wesson stock opened near an all-time high on Friday after five police officers were killed and seven were injured in a shooting in Dallas. The gunmaker’s stock opened at $29.75 a share."
Cookie, you might want to inquire about traffic stop shooting today and the fake 911 call to ambush another cop, before you demonstrate your ignorance.
I know Marxism never has to say its sorry.
Well, no, what he did was threaten a homeless man with a gun, which he had in his pocket.
I wonder why? Could it be the homeless man threatened him first? (This we-don't-know-what-happened-before-the-video cuts both ways, you know.)
The State-established Pro-Choice (i.e. selective) religious/moral philosophy that denigrates individual dignity and debases human life, along with Class diversity schemes (e.g. racism) motivated retributive change and the mass abortion of 5 innocent people.
A major part of this problem is President Shit Stain.
@ MisterBuddwing -
The homeless man was pestering him for money, so the suspect first told the homeless guy to leave him alone, and when that didn't work, he threatened the homeless man with the handgun. The homeless guy went to a phone and called 911. The rest followed. The police department has not yet released the exact transscipt of the call, but has released the gist of what was said, as above. Same with the actual dispatch tapes I think, no transcript but the substance of what was said, to wit, man with a gun, threatening people, plus physical description and gun in pants pocket.
OK, assault with a deadly weapon yielded by a convicted felon who had no legal right to the gun.
I guess we all join in denouncing people who use a gun in a menacing manner without actually shooting.
Re: the Castile shooting.
This guy was pulled over 31 times and given 63 citations in the last 14 years.
That is not natural even in Illinois and certainly not in Minnesota.
Something is missing from this story.
Hillary's advice to white folks:
We need to try, as best we can, to walk in your shoes, to imagine what it would be like to sit down our son or daughter down and have “the talk,” or if people followed us around stores, or locked their car doors when we walked past.
Shouldn't she have mentioned ducking?
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/speeches/remarks-national-action-network/
e: the Castile shooting.
This guy was pulled over 31 times and given 63 citations in the last 14 years.
That is not natural even in Illinois and certainly not in Minnesota.
Something is missing from this story.
Why was he pulled over so much? One possibility is that he was a horrible driver, another is that he drove through too many white neighborhoods with a broken taillight. (I'm open to more scenarios that are out there.)
JCC-obviously the cops had no detail on the validity of the complaint but only the facts dispatched to them.
MisterBuddwing said... [hush][hide comment]
Well, no, what he did was threaten a homeless man with a gun, which he had in his pocket.
I wonder why? Could it be the homeless man threatened him first? (This we-don't-know-what-happened-before-the-video cuts both ways, you know.)
7/8/16, 4:49 PM
THREADLOSER!
" . . . another is that he drove through too many white neighborhoods with a broken taillight."
Where does the broken taillight story come from? I thought it all went down too fast for a lot of conversation.
Jon Ericson: Don't credit me for what I didn't say (the first part). Besides, were YOU there? Do YOU know what really happened? Because if you weren't there, you have no right to second-guess anyone - at least, that's what I keep hearing.
Beyonce should apologize.
NBC: Dallas Protest Gunman Identified
See that picture of this guy? The one where he has is fist in the air? That's a "black power" symbol, right? So this guy has pictures with him using that symbol, and he's a murderer we all disapprove of, so the divisive symbols he use are no longer acceptable and people who also use those symbols should have to apologize, right?
That's what happened in the case of the murder Dylan Roof, right? He murdered innocent people, and when he was identified it was discovered that he used the confederate battle flat as a symbol, and everyone decided that that symbol was no longer acceptable and it was taken down in SC, etc, right? That's how we treat symbols that are tainted by hate-driven murder, right?
Well, Beyonce's Superbowl halftime show prominently featured her in pseudo-Black Panther costumes and giving a "black power" salute. She intentionally used that symbol, and now that symbol is tainted by a murderer. Beyonce should apologize and promise never to use that symbol again, right?
MisterBuddwing, please read this, loser.
http://tinyurl.com/j7cqqvq
Then get back to me.
Mister Buddwing -
He didn't get shot for anything to do with the homeless guy. He got shot for resisting arrest while armed and most likely for trying to pull that gun out of his pocket. We don't know yet what the two officers said in theor statements, but I'll bet that was pretty much it.
So, once more, like so many of these shootings, pretty are conflating the original offense and the use of deadly force by cops later, when the offender resisted arrest and put the safety of the cops in jeopardy. There really is no connection in terms of the justification. Would it have mattered if the suspect threatened a young girl, or an old man, or a homeless person? What mattered was he failed to submit to the lawful authority of the police and resisted arrest to the degree he endangered the cops.
"...use a gun in a menacing manner without actually shooting..."
Well, in the case of the cops, he didn't shoot because they shot him first. It"s not like he was motivated by his humanitarian nature. You are twisting the facts somewhat.
"I don't know how many cops you know, but I know quite a few and they all, to a man, criticize illegal shootings constantly."
I know a few, and we've not had conversations about such shootings, as I see them infrequently and only at family social gatherings, (not my family). Last month, my girlfriend asked one of her brothers, just one of several people in her family who are or have been police officers--all of them, in my experience, smart, warm, very nice people--why the training had changed to make police officers so belligerent with citizens. He said the training--and the behavior of police--hadn't changed, but that smartphones with video cameras had made public what has always gone on. (This fellow is very smart, very civilized, and in no way a knucklehead. He is retired from the NYPD and I don't see him as someone who would go out of his way to be abusive to people. However, I take his statement as his objective view of how the police--in his experience--have always acted.)
I also knew a guy 30 years ago who was a bell captain at a hotel where I then worked. A very funny, smart guy. He went to the police academy and joined the NYPD. Even while he worked as a police officer, he would come back and moonlight at the hotel to pick up extra income. He would tell tales of sometimes appalling behavior by the police toward people who had been arrested and were being booked. The one thing I remember is his telling of cops dragging hand-cuffed arrestees up flights of stairs in the precinct by their ankles. He never suggested all officers did such things, but he related things he had seen.
A relative of a woman I work with was employed by the NYPD for many years, (not as an officer). My co-worker says her relative always called the police "the biggest gang in town." My co-worker and her relative are black, and this statement was not made as a boast by a NYPD employee proud of her workplace, but as a statement of their nature...the biggest gang in town.
Jon Ericson: You call me out for what I said about Sterling, then jump to Castile to prove you're right???
I may be a loser, but you're a confuser. LOL.
The "Hands up don't shoot" lie has done its work once again. Five dead. The politicians that spread that lie should be ashamed.
"Cookie, you might want to inquire about traffic stop shooting today and the fake 911 call to ambush another cop, before you demonstrate your ignorance."
I don't see your point. That people are shooting and killing or wounding police officers in the wake of this week's police shootings of black men is appalling. Nobody rational is justifying this behavior, and the perpetrators, if not shot down in the act should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law when they're apprehended. However, this doesn't provide after-the-fact justification for the ongoing national problem of police officers shooting first and asking questions never.
Nichevo -
With the fact set as described, the cops certainly had enough reasonable suspicion to stop the suspect, and probably pat him down - not necessarily search him but do an external pat down for weapons - while talking to him, checking him out, asking him about any issues with other people...called threshhold inquiries (a Terry stop). Had the cops located the homeless man, they probably had enough to search the suspect and take him into custody while investigating. its unclear from the police statements, but it seems like the homeless guy was not on the scene when cops arrived, and they concentrated - correctly - on the suspect because he was supposedly armed. But an external pat-down would have certainly let the cops find the firearm and certainly would have been a legal find. That gun was probably why the suspect was resisting from the first contact with the cops. He knew exactly what was going to happen and he was probably hoping to bluff his way out, or alternately, run. Remember, this suspect has had multiple encounters with the cops, and he wasn't resisting because he was innocent. He was resisting because he had that gun and would go back to prison if he was caught with it.
Police kill about twice as many whites as blacks. While it is not proportional, we certainly never [or seldom] hear about the shooting of whites, some at 'routine' traffic stops. Again, it's the media coverage bias that's a good part of the problem.
However, this doesn't provide after-the-fact justification for the ongoing national problem of police officers shooting first and asking questions never.
The problem is that your "national problem" is minuscule. A non-problem. Even that case in South Caroilina, which looked like a bad shooting to me, now seems to be defensible as the driver had shot the cop with his own Taser.
Th cop is in jail and will go to trial. If I were him, or advising him, I would sure choose a bench trial over a jury.
"WRONG. The man had menaced another man with his gun. The second man had called 911. Police responded.
"Please stop making accusations of bigotry when you have not gone to the trouble to discover the most basic facts of the case."
I know the basic facts of the case. The cd seller--Alton Sterling--had pulled his gun on a homeless man who had been harassing him and wouldn't be discouraged by verbal warnings. The police could have approached with guns drawn and orders of "Hands Up!" As it was, they jumped him and had him pinned to the ground, helpless, as the video shows. The gun was not in Sterling's hand, but in his pants pocket. There is no way to believe Sterling would have been able to reach into his pocket and pull out his gun given that he was lying prone with two offices sitting on him. He was shot while being pinned down.
I don't quarrel with the police responding to the call and approaching Sterling with caution. I quarrel with their means and actions.
"Police kill about twice as many whites as blacks. While it is not proportional, we certainly never [or seldom] hear about the shooting of whites, some at 'routine' traffic stops. Again, it's the media coverage bias that's a good part of the problem.
If this is true, where are the videos? If we started to see a slew of videos of police shooting whites in circumstances similar to many of the videos we see of blacks being shot, it would not make it "okay" for the black victims of police violence, but would show that the problem of police violence against citizens is a greater problem than we know. It would make clear that this is not about police killing blacks for little or no reason, but about them killing everybody with little or no reason.
another dog that doesn't bark,
https://twitter.com/TheMuslimIssue/status/751431739130556416
Blogger Robert Cook said...
"Second - no one is trained to deal with split second decisions coming from hostile, fluid situations like what happened in Minnesota and Louisiana."
What was hostile or fluid or split-second about either of these situations? The man in Louisiana was simply outside a convenience market selling cds, as he had been doing regularly for five years. The police created the situation by jumping the man. His gun was in his pocket and he never went for it or resisted. The police were on top of him with their full body weight and the one officer simply took his firearm out of its holster and put it to the man's chest and fired twice. It is very visibly deliberate and not done in a moment of panic or "split-second decision" makin
--------------------------------------------
in LA...Done much wrestling with people with firearms in their pockets?
In MN looks really bad for the cops. Manslaughter minimum
You know what, I apologize. I don't care about Beyonce and the unfair scorn we non-Left southern people got about a symbol after murder Dylan Roof killed innocent people is such small potatoes in light of the terrible things going down I shouldn't have even mentioned it. I'm not wrong but it's not an important point to make right now. Sorry.
The more the outrage you can bet the author has not, will not, nor could ever conceive of being in a service (military or civilian) were your life and limb are in jeopardy.
Those types of occupations are done by 'those other people' who need constant guidance from afar by our mandarin overlords.
Sorry MisterBuddwing,
I got you confused with a different poster.
Think about it.
This is a post about the five murdered cops, and we have some posters whining about Alton Sterling, and another whining about Mr. Castile.
I suppose these posters are making some sort of moral equivalence argument e.g. The cops deserved it.
Not helpful.
"Imagine the situation in Minnesota: say you let him pull his weapon out, then he points it at you and shoots. That's giving him the benefit of the doubt, and you're dead. And until you've been in that situation, you have no idea how to handle it, and even then it's nearly impossible."
The man in Minnesota--Castile--volunteered the information that he had a firearm. He had a permit for the firearm. Aren't many of Althous'e reg'lars advocates of open carry laws and the like? If we're becoming a society where citizens are going to commonly (and legally) carry firearms, why would a police officer who had been told by the person he had just stopped that he had a firearm automatically pull and discharge his weapon four times? Why wouldn't the officer assume or accept the man had a permit to carry it and had no nefarious intent? Should all advocates and practitioners of "open carry" start to worry they will be gunned down without warning whenever they venture into public?
Sorry MisterBuddwing,
I got you confused with a different poster.
OK.
Robert Cook,please read this,
http://tinyurl.com/j7cqqvq
Then get back to me.
People still sell pirated music CDs?
This seems like an under-investigated question. Music is mostly free on the Internet. What are they really selling? DVDs? They look just like CDs, so maybe. But movies are largely free online as well. Software? Data? Data?
If I were an enterprising, fearless, young reporter in Chicago, I'd look into it. You can apparently make a dollar or two selling loosies, but I don't see how a crooked CD-seller today makes it. What does he do, burn his own? The blanks are cheap, but what, he's sitting in his alley, burning CDs on his laptop all day?
Who even has a CD player anymore? (Actually, my car does, but I drive an old car. But I don't use the CD player.)
Robert Cook said...If this is true, where are the videos? If we started to see a slew of videos of police shooting whites in circumstances similar to many of the videos we see of blacks being shot, it would not make it "okay" for the black victims of police violence, but would show that the problem of police violence against citizens is a greater problem than we know. It would make clear that this is not about police killing blacks for little or no reason, but about them killing everybody with little or no reason.
NPR: A White Teen Was Killed by a Cop and No One Took to the Streets
Dashcam Footage Shows Zachary Hammond Shooting
Wiki: Shooting of Zachary Hammond
10 grams of weed, 19 year old man on a 1st date. He tries to drive off and the cop opens up. The city settled a civil suit for $2M, the cop wasn't charged with anything. Not a big national story, and anyway no protests, etc.
That was just one I happened to know about. I'm sure there are more.
And let's not forget the case of Daniel Shaver:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/03/31/please-dont-shoot-me-man-pleads-for-life-moments-before-being-killed-by-arizona-police-officer/?utm_term=.15aea2133365#comments
Not a few (including me) found it infuriating. But you're right, no big national hue and cry.
HoodlumDoodlum,
There's no outcry because there's no critical mass of videos of shootings of whites by police, so most whites don't know about them and certainly don't assume this could happen to them or their loved ones. The experience of many blacks is such that seeing videos of blacks being shot by police simply confirms what they know can happen to any of them. Most whites don't have that experience and won't react in the same visceral way--"My God! That could be me, (or my son)!"--as blacks do to such videos. This shows the problem is more widespread than just police-on-black violence, but until more and more whites begin to experience police violence, and realize they are just as vulnerable to police violence as anyone else, they won't believe there's a problem.
"about them killing everybody with little or no reason."
Are you really this stupid or is it the Marxist mentality ?
"why would a police officer who had been told by the person he had just stopped that he had a firearm automatically pull and discharge his weapon four times?"
Because he looked like a video of a robbery suspect they were looking for. The taillight story is bullshit.
He made a move when he shouldn't have.
Too bad that community does not have body cams. If I were a cop I would sure want one, even to buy it myself.
Idiots like you are going to get them all so equipped.
@R. Cook: There's no outcry because there's no critical mass of videos of shootings of whites by police
And if there were [and there probably are] and they were sent to the news media, would they not get ignored?
Per WaPo IN 2015, 25% of crooks killed by the Police were black, 50% white, 25% other.
How many of the Police killing Black crooks? Unknown.
Obama and the liberal MSM killed those policeman.
Americans, dammit! We all need to see ourselves [and treat each other] as Americans.
"And if there were [and there probably are] and they were sent to the news media, would they not get ignored?"
I think the'd be noticed, but why go to the media? Post them directly to YouTube. They would be seen. However, until enough white come to believe they could be victims, they won't react. The historical (and present day) experience of blacks in this country makes any additional documentation of brutality by the authorities that much more resonant. Whites will always assume "the guy had it coming" if they haven't experienced arbitrary authority themselves.
Michael K said...
"about them killing everybody with little or no reason."
Are you really this stupid or is it the Marxist mentality ?
Cookie's not stupid, He just has his news filtered through CNN and Huffpost.
Plus he's a Marxist, who derailed this post ABOUT FIVE MURDERED POLICE OFFICERS.
News for Cookie: From Heather MacDonald.
Then there was a study by the New York Police Department. Te former acting director of the National Institute of Justice found that black officers in the New York Police Department were 3.3 times more likely to use their guns at shooting scenes than white officers. So, A, officers are more hesitant about shooting armed black suspects than armed white suspects to the point where now there's a risk that officers are hesitating so long that they may put their own lives at risk. The Black Lives Matter, that is all about white officers attacking blacks, is simply not true. That's the bottom line here. Everything everybody believes isn't true. They think Ferguson, Missouri happens every day. And it does not.
Let's all step back and leave this to the FBI. I'm sure, after they collect all the evidence, they'll find Micah Johnson extremely careless.
" I'm sure, after they collect all the evidence, they'll find Micah Johnson extremely careless."
But they will probably lose track of his girlfriend. Just like the Orlando shooter's wife.
Just like the Orlando shooter's wife.
Yeah, Loretta Lynch admitted that they lost track of her. It doesn't seem to bother the AG [or anyone in the Administration] that there is a terrorist abettor on the loose.
Cook, see this video. (in the LA Times of all places).
Cookie must have nodded off.
But don't worry, he'll be back.
Smarter and Marxier than ever.
Tune in tomorrow for another exciting episode of "how America stinks"
EMD: "In a routine traffic stop, you are often asked to produce your license. Mine is in my wallet in my front pocket, so naturally my hand would have to move to retrieve it. That would be my instinct. Heck, I've been pulled over for speeding and my inclination is to automatically reach for it because they're going to ask for it anyway. But now, that very motion (even before the officer is at my window) could be perceived as a threat."
You stop the car. You turn it off. You roll down the window. You put both hands on *top* of the steering wheel. When the cop gets to your car, he/she will ask for your license, etc. You *don't* immediately reach for it. You say, "It's in my front pants pocket, is it okay if I take it out now?" (Maybe you add "sir"/"ma'am.") Assuming the officer says yes, you take it out *slowly* and hand it to him/her.
I'm a 62-year-old white female, and aside from substituting "purse" for "pocket," that's how I roll. Not because I'm a helot, but because cops do get shot in traffic stops.
As it was, they jumped him and had him pinned to the ground, helpless, as the video shows.
Ah, like George Zimmerman was helpless when jumped and pinned to the ground by Trayvon Martin.
"Worse than Obama's stirring of the pot has been the media who cry "Racist!" at every point ... at least when a Republican is involved. Witness the ridiculous coverage of Trump's six-sided star tweet. it is disheartening to the point of despair. "
I first learned of it on Althouse.
I for one, would like the "Unknowns" to disambiguate.
There are good "Unknowns", and troll "Unknowns".
"Unknown" Vance seems to be a good "Unknown".
What to do, What to do?
People still sell pirated music CDs?
A lot of the time, their selling original, home recorded music.
"And I think the inner cities will descend into violence."
Is that your fantasy?
I for one, would like the "Unknowns" to disambiguate.
There are good "Unknowns", and troll "Unknowns".
"Unknown" Vance seems to be a good "Unknown".
What to do, What to do?
The less known about Unknown, the better.
Gahrie said... [hush][hide comment]
People still sell pirated music CDs?
A lot of the time, their selling original, home recorded music.
7/8/16, 9:17 PM
Pull the other one.
Typically in NY it's sad little foreigners stumbling into a bar or the like, mutely selling knockoff DVDs of first run movies, of varying quality, for I think $5/ea or 3/$10. Never seen any enforcement on that, but that's us.
-Known Unknown
buwaya said...
"And round and round we go with self-righteous recriminations and mutual hatred. But no reasonable solutions that can be agreed to by both sides ever appear. "
Because there really aren't any solutions. It is what it is. Until the populations in question adopt the personal and collective discipline of the Swiss.
7/8/16, 3:11 PM
Yes because we are just as homogenous. And can daintily pick out laudable characteristics from whatever culture we choose. Please.
Swiss Miss, I say shootings get worse and worse until we repeal the 2nd amendment then afterward we kick in all our doors and yell gimme your gun motherfucker, fucking 2nd amendment is gone. HAND IT OVER NOW. You fuckers couldn’t handle it, too bad. Game over.
BRING IT
There's your good guy with a gun.
The experience of many blacks is such that seeing videos of blacks being shot by police simply confirms what they know can happen to any of them. Most whites don't have that experience and won't react in the same visceral way--"My God! That could be me, (or my son)!"--as blacks do to such videos.
+++++++++
Exactly.
coupe said...
My personal feeling is, that the police departments are hiring cowards.
These cops are so scared of the public that Barney Fife looks like a medal of honor winner.
7/8/16, 9:15 AM
Wow, you have a lot of nerve.
@HT:
I read your last two posts a couple of times, and I still don't know what you were trying to say.
Please re-read and repost.
(sorry, its true)
Forget it JonEricson. Just forget it. You probably have anyway. Bye now.
Thanks, All is clear now.
>The man in Minnesota--Castile--volunteered the information that he had a firearm.
Again, since you were right there, what exactly did he say, and then what did the officer say in return? Then what happened next?
Jon Ericson=Trooper York.
"In a routine traffic stop, you are often asked to produce your license. Mine is in my wallet in my front pocket, so naturally my hand would have to move to retrieve it. That would be my instinct. Heck, I've been pulled over for speeding and my inclination is to automatically reach for it because they're going to ask for it anyway. But now, that very motion (even before the officer is at my window) could be perceived as a threat."
If/when I'm pulled over before the officer gets out of his car I pull my wallet out of my back pocket and place it on the dash in front of the steering wheel. I keep a copy of my insurance card in my wallet. I don't remember being asked for registration, but it's in the dash.
What the hell are you talking about "Unknown"?
Who the hell is Trooper York?
Into your cups Sugartits?
BATTLE OF THE UNKNOWNS.
If stopped I ask the cop if it's ok if I reach into my pocket, because that is where my wallet is. I've only started doing this the past few years. I never gave if a second thought years ago. Never had a cop go nuts on me years ago either.
I'd like to say "I give up", but no.
Who are the "jerk" "Unknowns" and who are the "legitimate" "Unknowns"
Unknown I guess.
++
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/upshot/police-killings-of-blacks-what-the-data-says.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
...
According to the F.B.I.’s Supplementary Homicide Report, 31.8 percent of people shot by the police were African-American, a proportion more than two and a half times the 13.2 percent of African-Americans in the general population.
...
For the entire country, 28.9 percent of arrestees were African-American. This number is not very different from the 31.8 percent of police-shooting victims who were African-Americans. If police discrimination were a big factor in the actual killings, we would have expected a larger gap between the arrest rate and the police-killing rate.
...
First, the police are at least in part guided by suspect descriptions. And the descriptions provided by victims already show a large racial gap: Nearly 30 percent of reported offenders were black. So if the police simply stopped suspects at a rate matching these descriptions, African-Americans would be encountering police at a rate close to both the arrest and the killing rates.
++
#PoliceLivesDon'tMatter
""My God! That could be me, (or my son)!"--as blacks do to such videos."
Like, "My God! That could be me, "selling CDs" outside a convenience store, with a long rap sheet and a gun in my pocket, then struggling when cops try to arrest me."
Or: "My God! That could be me, robbing a store and punching the owner, then walking down the middle of the street, reaching for a cop's gun inside his car, and coming at him when he tells me to stop."
Or: "My God! That could be me, being known to the police and all, running when they see me, having a funky little knife on me, then raising a ruckus in the van to jail--and getting the racist black cops tried for murder."
Oh my God! That could be you sitting in your car trying to explain to the cop that you have a gun in your glove compartment and have a permit for it and he shoots you after telling you to give him your ID.
Nice try, Nimrod.
Thanks, Unknown, For what, I don't know, But I can paste and copy too.
Let me show you how it's done, son...
(From The First Deadly Sin by Lawrence Sanders, 1973)
It did nag. Something. Delaney re-wrapped his half-sandwich, continued his routine pacing. Now the thing to do was to take it from the start, the beginning, and remember everything his friend had done, every action, every movement.
He had first glimpsed him inside the lobby, talking to a doorman. Blank came outside, looked up at the sky, buttoned his coat, turned up the collar, started walking west. Nothing in all that.
He recalled it all again. The slow walk along Third Avenue, Blank’s stop outside the pet shop, the way-
Suddenly there was a car pulling up alongside Delaney at the curb. A dusty, four-door, dark blue Plymouth. Two men in the front seat in civilian clothes. But the near man, not the driver, turned a powerful flashlight on Delaney.
“Police,” he said. “Stop where you are, please.”
Delaney stopped. He turned slowly to face the car. He raised his arms slightly from his body, turned his palms outward. The man with the flashlight got out of the car, his right hand near his hip. His partner, the driver, dimly seen, was cuddling something in his lap. Delaney admired their competence. They were professionals. But he wondered, not for the first time, why the Department invariably selected three-year-old, dusty, four-door, dark blue Plymouths for their unmarked cars. Every villain on the streets could spot one a block away.
The detective with the flashlight advanced two steps, but still kept a long stride away from Delaney. The light was directly in the Captain’s eyes.
“Live in the neighborhood?” the man asked. His voice was dry gin, on the rocks.
“Yes,” the Captain nodded.
“Do you have identification?”
“Yes,” Delaney said. “I am going to reach up slowly with my left hand, open my overcoat, then my jacket. I am going to withdraw my identification from the inside right breast pocket of my jacket with my left hand and hand it to you. Okay?”
The detective nodded.
Delaney, moving slowly, meticulously, handed over his buzzer and ID card in the leather folder. It was a long reach to the detective. The flashlight turned down to the badge and photo, then up again to Delaney’s face. Then it was snapped off.
“Sorry, Captain,” the man said, no apology in his voice. He handed the leather back.
“You did just right,” Delaney said. “Operation Lombard?”
“Yeah,” the detective said, and asked no unnecessary questions. “You’ll be around awhile?”
“Until dawn.”
“We won’t roust you again.”
“That’s all right,” Delaney assured him.
(Needless to say Edward X. Delaney is a big white Irish cop on the NYPD)
--Known Unknown
I beg your pardon Jon, forgot twice to sign off. The one harassing you is an unknown Unknown. I wish TY was back, along with many others.
--Known Unknown
Please continue, that was very dramatic.
Did some innocent choir boy get ventilated?
Tell us more.
The more Unknowns the merrier.
Oh no, you gotta read it! But Operation Lombard is a full-bore manhunt for a serial killer. Great stuff!
But no, John or troop or whoever, my point was that white privilege does not mean that you don't have to behave circumspectly and cooperate intelligently with the police. None of that do you know who I am bushwah.
I got pulled over once cuz I was taking my Cutlass to the body shop and apparently it fit the description of a hit and run. I was such an innocent but I understood perfectly well that the policeman didn't know that.
Obama is going to Dallas.
That ought to have a calming effect!
OK.
Between rational Unknowns,
Irrational Unknowns, and
Unknown Unknowns.
I'll just keep trying to keep up.
Yeah let's get Trump to go to Dallas and calm the waters.
OK we got:
Unknown On Blogger since March 2012,
Unknown Profile Not Available
Unknown On Blogger since October 2011
Unknown On Blogger since November 2011
Any more?
OK, I've got 92,946 views on my profile.
Must be because I have a name, huh?
There are lots of numbers being tossed around, so from the 2014 Uniform Crime Reports (UCR's):
of those persons arrested for murder, 51% were identified as black
of those arrested for rape, 30% were identified as black
of those arrested for robbery, 55% were identified as black
of those arrested for agg assault, 33% were identified as black.
These are the four crimes which the FBI categorizes as "violent crimes." These do not mean that 51% of murders resulted in arrests of black persons, only that 51% of the total arrests were black. So it does not account for multiple suspects in a single crime, for instance. The UCR's do not break down crime suspects by ethnicity except for murder. In murders with an identifiable suspect (whether arrested or not), 53% were identified as black. (30% were unidentified).
In 2014, the Census Bureau said that 12% of the U S population was black, If males were half that, then 6%, and if males common to crimes, say 16 to 40, guess to be no more than 5% which is very, very generous, 5% of the U S population is committing more than half the murders and robberies, a third of the rapes and serious assaults, etc. About 32% of those shot by cops are black, while about 36% or 37% of those who murder cops are black. So, civilians are at higher risk than cops, although the single biggest health risk to a young black male is other young black males.
Numbers don't lie. As any idiot knows, there is trouble with the no-longer existent poor black family. Young black men are turned loose on society with no parental supervision, no role models and no job skills at an early age, and then at some point, cops are supposed to somehow deal with them.
@Michael K. Yes, you do have to read the British newspapers to find out what happened more often than not. The politically correct Pravdas of the [name that party] are just about worthless when it involves stories that reflect poorly on the [name that party]'s agenda.
Yeah, the blog must be on auto-mod. No spew from ballboy.
Blogger Unknown said...
Yeah let's get Trump to go to Dallas and calm the waters.
7/8/16, 11:18 PM
Is that the standard of racial harmony these days? You are pathetic.
Hey, I suggest we call these out-for-blood race warriors 'Lynch mobs.' Waddya think?
I be down wid it.
Sweet Loretta Lynch Mob though she'd be a wiener,
But she knew it couldn't last.
All the world around her sez she needs a lawyer
But she glides cuz CNN.
Needs some work.
Cage fight:
Sally vs Milo
Let's make it happen!
Good Morning, Meadhouse!
Let the equivocations start!
Must be too early.
Snuggly, snuggly, snuggly POO!
Oh, ignore the rabble.
I will make a post that mitigates the horror.
Perhaps I will make a hilarious bacon comment.
XOXO Ann & Meade
Please remember my face.
Everybody loves a smiling face, right?
Heh
And Reason publishing such tripe is exactly one of the problems.
Reason is really difficult to read frequently.
Hey, Cookie... It looks like Mr. Castile had his gun *out*, and resting on his thigh when the officer approached.
Funny you didn't mention that, since you seemed so sure about exactly what happened.
Oh, and apparently he didn't have a concealed firearms license, either.
I used to work next to a cabinet shop that employed a lot of gangbanger types. How do I know they were gangbanger types? They told me. Besides always asking me if I could convert their SKS into full auto, or make them a silencer, their biggest complaint was always getting hassled by by the cops.
Hey guys. Quit doing the shit that gets you noticed by the cops. It really is that simple.
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