He added that too many schools are treating it as a "student issue" instead of referring accusations to law enforcement and added that victims shouldn't have to be in classes with their rapists. But the idea of mandatory law enforcement referral has long been met by with skepticism by advocates trying to stop sexual assaults on college campuses. Ninety percent of survivors polled by the National Alliance to End Sexual Violence and Know Your IX said they wanted to have the choice of whether to report or to whom, while 80 percent agreed that mandatory police reporting could "have a chilling effect on reporting.
January 12, 2016
"If a student rapes another student it has got to be understood as a very serious crime, it has to get outside of the school and have a police investigation and that has to take place."
Bernie Sanders takes a controversial position.
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Ninety percent of survivors polled by the National Alliance to End Sexual Violence and Know Your IX said they wanted to have the choice of whether to report or to whom,
So?
while 80 percent agreed that mandatory police reporting could "have a chilling effect on reporting.
Why would this possibly be true? I mean if a sexual assault actually took place?
Requiring reports might lead to all rapes being treated as rape-rapes. Defeats the purpose of using accusations to advance female power and/or assuage women's regret.
Ninety percent of survivors polled by the National Alliance to End Sexual Violence and Know Your IX said they wanted to have the choice of whether to report or to whom, while 80 percent agreed that mandatory police reporting could "have a chilling effect on reporting.
That is always the assertion. What never gets discussed is that by not reporting it to law enforcement, they are leaving rapists free to rape others. They are more interested in playing up the "shattered victim" posing, rather than stopping a rapist. It is very selfish.
What also never gets discussed is that many of these "rapes" didn't happen; up to 40%+ are false. Which is why they'd rather not have to report them to the police, where they could be subject to criminal charges for making a false report. They'd rather have have a campus authority figure punish the accused with little to no evidence, merely on their word. False accusers know they can mobilize an entire campus retribution machine to go after anyone they've accused and they don't have to provide any proof whatsoever.
The Campus Fake Rape Culture cry-bullies are trying to give female accusers all the power, as opposed to a neutral body that will be fair and impartial to both parties. The very language they use to describe the accusers; "Survivors", gives the game away.
"Ninety percent of survivors . . . said they wanted to have the choice of whether to report or to whom . . . ."
OBJECTION! Assumes a fact not in evidence. Referring to someone as a "survivor" means that you have already decided that she was raped or otherwise sexually violated. Yet these "survivors" want the option of not even reporting the supposed crime. One way of interpreting this statement is that 90% of women who claim to have been raped or assaulted were in fact not raped or assualted, and don't want to have their claim investigated -- and most particularly not investigated by serious, cold-eyed, evidence-driven professionals.
In other words, survivor advocates don't want to lose their sinecures at universities. This is a cottage industry that wants to perpetuate itself.
So it makes up statistics and flings bullshit around.
This shouldn't have to be said, but apparently it does--if you sincerely believe you were the victim of a criminal act, including sexual assault, you absolutely should report it to the police. You are not required to, but if you don't then don't expect anything to be done about it.
If you think something as serious as a sexual assault took place, then the idea that this should be handled just by a school and not the police is absurd.
Of all the crazy things Sanders has said, it's insane that this would be one to get him into trouble. But this is today's climate.
The underlying premise of using Title IX, which is a statute about equal treatment in education, to establish a punitive machine to go after males merely accused of sexual assault, is the entire problem with this. It enables the entire Fake Rape Culture of radical campus feminists. It is also sexist as hell.
Of all the crazy things Sanders has said, it's insane that this would be one to get him into trouble. But this is today's climate.
That's because the Fake Rape Campus Culture is driven by insane people.
100% of survivors already have the choice of whether to report, and to whom. Nobody forces an unknown rape victim to report to anyone. They alone choose to report what happened to them, or not, and to whom. Saying otherwise does not make sense when using the words used in the post.
That bit of semantics aside, criminal matters have no business being adjudicated by people outside the real justice system.
Unless you want to tell your buddies that so-and-so raped you, and have them go vigilante on the purported rapist (a system fraught with potential abuse and unwanted consequences), the proper police authorities are the people who can investigate, charge, convict, sentence and imprison a rapist. College administrators, as far as I know, cannot do that.
If I had believed that 1 in 5 women in college would be sexually assaulted in their 4 years of college, I'd have followed my daughter around campus with a lupara slung over my shoulder, and protected her from those thousands of campus rapists that would have had to exist. And so would every other parent of a college woman.
Logic is a white cisnormative racist construct to enslave young females who don't have the sense to vote democrat yet.
The problem with Bernie Sanders' position here is that it makes it difficult for a female student to compel her university to expel a male student on the basis of her bogus rape accusation.
If the police investigate her accusation, then nothing might happen to the male student whom she dislikes.
On the other hand, if a university gender-diversity expert investigates her accusation, then the disliked male student probably will be expelled.
Why is rape the only crime that has this "problem"?
Is there a special Title IX rape kit? If not, why not?
Are battery or murder cases handled by the universities? I mean, really. Just stop.
The reason reporting to police would have a chilling effect is that the police would pull out a rape kit or would begin asking probing (sorry) questions, neither of which would be forthcoming if a "rape" was reported to the university a few weeks or months after the horrid event.
while 80 percent agreed that mandatory police reporting could "have a chilling effect on reporting.
Gahrie: Why would this possibly be true? I mean if a sexual assault actually took place?
If they report to the police and it has to go to trial, they have to testify in court. These sort of crimes can be traumatic to the point that the victim may consider court to be more painful than her rapist being free. It's not rational, but trauma rarely is. Plus there is the time involved and the risk that the rapist will not be convicted which adds additional pain.
Make something easier to do, get more of it.
The problem is this easier process completely violates anything resembling due process. A system where the accuser can make any accusation and have it stick without the accused being able to defend himself or herself is utterly corrupt and the reason we have the court system we have. In a "fair" system without due process, these accusers would be counter-accused and punished with all due haste, at which point everyone would agree this is a terrible idea. There's a reason that this college system only allows this for certain people as otherwise the college would quickly expel its entire student population. It can function only because the game is rigged.
Evil in pursuit of good intentions is still evil.
This will fly with Dem primary voters. Doesn't anyone know how to play this game?
I'm guessing Bernie never got the memo.
(Unless we are talking about destroying Carthage. Then all options are on the table.)
This is only supposed to be a Federal Jobs program for high paid liberal feminist hires of their current partners.
If the scarce jobs go to the Police Department, then what good was the charade anyway.
That would be letting a crisis go to waste.
"Controversial?" What bullshit! "80 percent agreed that mandatory police reporting could "have a chilling effect on reporting." More bullshit!
In our jurisdiction, with one of the nation's larger universities, it was understood that criminal offenses were to be screened by county or city prosecutors prior to any university disciplinary action and that university officials who obstructed that process would be prosecuted. If campus police facilitated the obstruction local law enforcement would petition to have them decertified.
As for the "chilling effect:" Some of the cases we've read about recently as the subject of lawsuits against universities by the accused probably should have been chilled. Reporting rape is no easy matter, but the prospect of adjudication before a university kangaroo court ought not to provide the incentive. Perhaps the elected prosecutors in university areas need to be reminded of their oaths.
Crime is crime. It is not a "student infraction."
It's hard to believe that we live in a world where Bernie's position is considered a "controversial stance."
It's another use of the intensive for rape being a very serious crime.
It's a PC feminist addition. It means that's not funny, no matter what we're calling rape these days.
I do like this from Sanders. Maybe this stand was taken after doing some poll testing, but I somehow doubt it. Rather, he seems willing here to go against the feminist academic complex here, which is supported by all right thinking progressives.
I would suggest that this is a big part of his allure to the voting public. He is the one Democratic candidate who will, apparently, stand up to political correctness, and the Dem establishment. Despite his sophomoric economic theories, I would far prefer him as President over Hillary, who has no shame, or at least no shame when it would come between her and either money or power. His positions may be dumb in many cases, but at least he believes them. Hope the establishment Dems get as scared of him as the Republicans are of Trump and Cruz.
Oh - and thanks for turning on the Robot code again, since moderating takes away much of the spontaneity of blogging.
Sanders doesn't respect other rape cultures.
So - anyone here willing to take bets as to whether any of our resident leftists jump in here to actually condemn this from Sanders?
Wait, university officials are not required to report criminal abuse when they become aware of it? But elementary and secondary schools are?
Rae @ 2:13 -
Logic is a white cisnormative racist construct to enslave young females who don't have the sense to vote democrat yet.
*****
!!!!
Can I make this into a bumbersticker? Oh for an "upvote" button....
We should ask Hillary about this next opportunity for non planted questions she offers!
"If they report to the police and it has to go to trial, they have to testify in court. These sort of crimes can be traumatic to the point that the victim may consider court to be more painful than her rapist being free. It's not rational, but trauma rarely is. Plus there is the time involved and the risk that the rapist will not be convicted which adds additional pain."
The problem with this rationalization is that at best you have someone expelled, but walking the streets free--and if they really are a sexual assaulter, filled with resentment for having their future tossed in a ditch, they are likely to come back and do serious damage to their accuser (and any witnesses). The only "less traumatic" aspect of the campus process is that the accused won't have a lawyer, and probably won't have a right to see the accuser testify (going to your lack of due process point).
I get that it sucks being a victim of crimes like that--but it sucks being a victim of any violent crime. Unfortunately, the only way to get justice is to go through our constitutional processes, and that means investigations and trials that are no picnic for the accuser (to say nothing of the accused, but again, if they're guilty then tough turds). But as noted above, you also have the right to not report at all. It's this "middle" approach of using quasi judicial bodies without due process to screw over someone's future that is appalling--appalling because if they're really a rapist, being expelled is too lenient a crime, and if they're not really a rapist then this process is grossly unfair for them. Talk about worst of both worlds.
Bernies position is only "controversial" if you're a feminist lunatic.
If they report to the police and it has to go to trial, they have to testify in court. These sort of crimes can be traumatic to the point that the victim may consider court to be more painful than her rapist being free.
Which would mean that reporting the crime to the Campus authorities is some how less traumatic for some reason. I wonder why.
Oh wait, its because the police have to follow all kinds of rules relating to due process and prosecutors have to actually look at the evidence and have limited budgets so they won't take marginal, let alone obviously bullshit cases, to court because they need to prioritize. Campus Title IX administrators, on the other hand, have exactly the opposite incentives. More rapes (excuse me, sexual assaults) and more students expelled means more money in their budget. A little legal theater that would make a Stalinist blush (good thing they are Maoists) and ka-ching! Time to get some academic bling!
Say 80% of victims of robbery in colleges wanted to be able to report the robberies to the college which would pretty much summarily expel whatever student was accused, would that make it ok?
It doesn't matter what the "victims" say. Without due process we are depriving people of rights under cover of law.
The Prof. Althouse position, I think, has been that it's both a criminal matter and a Student Code (or whatever it's called) violation and thus it's not wrong to have the University treat it as such. I'm ok with that, but it means that the University inquiry/investigation/adjudication has to have some pretty strong "due process" type protections and conform with our ideas about the rule of law generally, since the outcome of that process could be to find someone guilty of rape or sexual assault. My problem with the Universities is in their trying to have it both ways--to be able to pronounce someone guilty of a serious crime like that but not to have what we think of as a "fair trial."
It's a problem. The "fair" thing to do would be to wait until a person was convicted of a crime and then have the campus act on that basis, but of course real trials can take years so what do you do in the meantime?
Like I said, it's a problem, but I don't find colleges' solution of "sham trials now, for the safe of safety but at the expense of the accused (who by the way happen to be mostly young men" to be very satisfying nor anything approaching "justice."
Also, damn am I sick of "trauma" being a catch all for "the normal rules no longer apply." When people started talking about being traumatized by having to hear opposing views, started categorizing speech they didn't like as violent and traumatic...yeah, I pretty much wrote that off and haven't looked back. The Left (honestly the Feminist Left) fucked up by stretching "trauma" to mean just things they didn't like and using it as an excuse for them to exercise their power--I have very little empathy for people who claim to have been traumatized by things they're just alleging occurred, now.
Also, damn am I sick of "trauma" being a catch all for "the normal rules no longer apply."
Amen, HoodlumDoodlum.
Why is this idea controversial? Why is the idea that students' due process rights are null and void while they're on campus NOT controversial?
Bruce Hayden said... He is the one Democratic candidate who will, apparently, stand up to political correctness, and the Dem establishment.
Trump/Sanders 2016! Or Sanders/Trump 2016!
Say 80% of victims of robbery in colleges wanted to be able to report the robberies to the college which would pretty much summarily expel whatever student was accused, would that make it ok?
It doesn't matter what the "victims" say. Without due process we are depriving people of rights under cover of law.
Good point, Ron Winkleheimer.
Victims need support of course, but victims are the least objective, and we need objectivity when we create a system of justice.
I think most of us would agree to let someone we falsely believe guilty of a crime take a punishment rather than have to personally face them every day. Humans are pretty selfish like that, and that selfishness doesn't need to be catered to.
Also, damn am I sick of "trauma" being a catch all for "the normal rules no longer apply." When people started talking about being traumatized by having to hear opposing views, started categorizing speech they didn't like as violent and traumatic...yeah, I pretty much wrote that off and haven't looked back. The Left (honestly the Feminist Left) fucked up by stretching "trauma" to mean just things they didn't like and using it as an excuse for them to exercise their power--I have very little empathy for people who claim to have been traumatized by things they're just alleging occurred, now.
And they will soon be government drones, passing laws based on their asinine beliefs to ruin peoples' lives.
Also, while I believe rape is very traumatic, how do we measure how much more traumatic it is than other crimes?
Say, for example, a guy you've slept with before sleeps with you again when you are drunk, and you didn't really consent. Is that more or less traumatic than having someone jump you in the parking lot with a gun and steal your phone?
What a pile of elitist horseshit.
I'm not a university student. I'm just a housewife. What if I'm raped by the guy down the street? Should I be able to take my case to the homeowners' association and have the guy convicted in a kangaroo court and thrown out of my neighborhood because it would be too "traumatic" to deal with the police like every other citizen? Why not? Why should the special snowflakes who have the wherewithal to go to university get access to their own private justice system which is overwhelmingly slanted in their favor, while every other rape victim or "victim" has to deal with the police and courts? Why do poor white girls in Appalachia or poor black girls in the ghetto not matter? They don't get a special keycard to the room where they are petted and coddled and believed regardless of what the actual evidence indicates. Why not? Why do we expect everyone else to put on their big girl panties and deal with the judicial system, but university students are more specialer?
That infuriates me.
Should men have to sit in class everyday with a woman who falsely accused him of rape?
Rape-rape, like murder, [elective] abortion, [clinical] cannibalism, etc. are crimes committed against the individual and society. Each incident should be reported to civil authorities for investigation and remediation.
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
1/12/16, 3:55 PM
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.
Well, that's likely to be the place where he and I come closest to agreeing. Rape is a crime; colleges should refer it to the police and leave it to the criminal justice system.
What HoodlumDoodlum said.
Also, the collapse of due process encourages bad actors to use accusations for revenge or to get people to involved in and validate their internal psycho-dramas or to enforce ideologies. Or they might just do it because they enjoy making people suffer and they can.
In any event, it erodes the trust needed for a free society to function since it is essentially the granting of unchecked power to anyone who is ruthless enough to use it.
Who are non survivors?
Perhaps there should be something like a Suggestion Box placed strategically on campus where men could slip in notes to the effect that "last night I had consensual sex with Joan." For the record, so to speak.
Also, TWW, excellent question.
I would suggest that this is a big part of his allure to the voting public. He is the one Democratic candidate who will, apparently, stand up to political correctness, and the Dem establishment.
How long before Sanders backtracks and recants like he did for:
BLM
Illegal immigration
Gun control
The man needs to grow a pair.
No doubt this reflects UVA Jackie's desire for options: when you make up a guy "Haven Monahan" for the sole purpose of making another guy think you're desirable, then make up a wild rape story to get his sympathy, you prefer the friendlier confines of a campus culture that always believes you, and doesn't expose you to that whole "false reporting" criminal stuff that the local police does.
Bad enough to open the door to this kind of kangaroo court out of a naive desire to spare women trauma, but to continue to perpetrate these feminazi witch hunts when we have smoking gun evidence how they are abused (UVA and Duke) by unbalanced women is heinous.
Why do we expect everyone else to put on their big girl panties and deal with the judicial system, but university students are more specialer?
I wish you wouldn't take this position. This is the next step in the process and now you're on record supporting it.
Incrementalism works.
They probably don't want to report rape to the police because, at some level, they understand that the legal definition of rape isn't exactly what they had in mind.
You know, I could never get RS McCain to bite on this one when he covers the campus rape "epidemic" topic. I remember one of the more infamous cases was when a young lady came home for break - had a horrible semester, depressed, etc. (I would be depressed too if I failed a semester). Mother pushed for cause, finally the young lady came up with an alleged unreported sexual assault, and some schmuck was IDed as the perp. Another case was a young lady with a lot of promiscuity, alcohol & mental illness issues. Mentioned in her "story" was the blame she put on the school - she dropped out because they did not provide academic accommodations. Now, if anyone is interested, follow the link, and go to page 6 for the "money shot" and see what kind of academic accommodations can asked for. They don't even need to do a Title IX complaint - certain qualified counselors can make the request for accommodations, and don't have to provide a reason. Here are some examples of accommodations:
..such as rescheduling an exam.
..such as a temporary leave of absence
..Students may also be entitled to additional services and supports if they have a disability, including those who developed a disability as a result of experiencing sexual misconduct.
Transferring to another section of a lecture or laboratory
Rescheduling an academic assignment or test
Accessing academic support (e.g., tutoring)
Arranging for incompletes, a leave of absence, or withdrawal from campus
Preserving eligibility for academic, athletic, or other scholarships, financial aid, internships, study abroad, or foreign student visas
Sample Language for Interim and Supportive Measures to Protect Students Following an Allegation of Sexual Misconduct
It is really about the benefits that come from being a sexual assault victim.
Ron Winkleheimer said...
If they report to the police and it has to go to trial, they have to testify in court. These sort of crimes can be traumatic to the point that the victim may consider court to be more painful than her rapist being free.
Which would mean that reporting the crime to the Campus authorities is some how less traumatic for some reason. I wonder why.
I'm not saying this is a good procedure. It simply follows that the easier and less stressful it is to report a rape, the more rapes that will be reported. I have no doubt that more actual rapes are reported because this system exists. I also have no doubt that more fake rapes are are reported because this system exists. It's a lousy system and unconstitutional to boot. It needs to be scrapped ASAP.
However, do not minimize the trauma of sexual abuse. Victims often have trouble admitting what happened even in the most supportive of environments years after the event. An adversarial court with a hostile defense attorney is more than some can bear. If you put victims in a situation where they can remain anonymous and do not have to testify, more will come forward. I can sympathize with this. The problem is the cost - essentially the elimination of due process - is far too dear. It is only not fair, but it risks the utter corruption or even collapse of the entire justice system.
And, yes, it does make no sense that colleges would somehow have less strict standards than everyone else.
If there is no police report and evidence attempted to be collected, it did not happen. That is the only way to deal with this. And the cases that are not reported would probably be questionable actions by both party.
Only in pc land does stating that rape charges should be handled by law enforcement versus the mob somehow controversial.
This is, or should be, the conservative position. So, nice that Sanders decided to pay it a visit.
But I'll note that Joe Paterno got hammered for adhering to the position that it should be handled by the administration by the left for some reason. (not sure what their beef with him was) and then every college went right along with treating the rapes exactly like Paterno did, and no one complained that no one was going to the cops.
Do we owe Paterno an apology perhaps?
Is there any way that a college could have these lesser "courts" to adjudicate sex crimes? I suppose, but it would essentially have to be something established up front - a code of conduct and a punitive system with real due process - that the students would have to agree to upon enrollment. I suppose it could work for a college judicial system to expel students for any infraction from cheating to murder to violating some college moral code (no sex in a religious school) based on the preponderance of the evidence, but even then it would have to be a far better system than the kangaroo courts that many schools use. There are conflicts of interest, obvious bias, unqualified investigators/judges/etc., lack of fair rules of evidence or testimony, and other clear fatal flaws that make the system useless. Expulsion is a serious punishment and needs to be taken very seriously, which very often it is not. Frankly, I wouldn't apply to any school with these kangaroo courts.
Gahrie:
"Why would this possibly be true? I mean if a sexual assault actually took place?"
Others have addressed this point, but I'll add:
I'm remembering a briefing on sexual assault reporting by an agent of the Army's Criminal Investigation Division. He described the two reporting categories: restricted and unrestricted. The unrestricted report is exactly what you would expect in the case of a rape: Triggers a full-on criminal investigation, with the goal of court-martial and conviction if the rapist is guilty. Restricted reporting does not lead to criminal investigation; it's basically just a way to get the victim all available support in recovering.
I asked the agent something close to your question: Why would a victim who'd been raped not take the unrestricted route?
He answered, Because at that point I have no choice. I'm going to go in and turn her life upside down, ask all sorts of really ugly personal questions, over and over again, try to shake her story and see if it changes, look into everything remotely connected to that incident, and not let up until it's all over. Which can take a long time.
You could tell he was pretty gung-ho about catching rapists and nailing them to the wall, but his sympathy for the victim who didn't feel up to putting herself through all that was evident. I agree with Sanders here. But I can also understand why a genuine victim might not have the strength to see the whole ordeal through the legal system, or trust that it will all work out as it should.
This just goes to show that many people do make a distinction between rape and rape rape.
"But the idea of mandatory law enforcement referral has long been met by with skepticism by advocates trying to stop sexual assaults on college campuses. Ninety percent of survivors polled by the National Alliance to End Sexual Violence and Know Your IX said they wanted to have the choice of whether to report or to whom, while 80 percent agreed that mandatory police reporting could "have a chilling effect on reporting."
...All of which demonstrates the obvious: Generally, when we talk about this subject, we aren't talking about crimes; we're talking about bad sex. Deep down these people know that, regardless of whether they realize they know it. They want to use the words though--rape, sexual assault, victim, survivor. George Will got flayed, but damned if he wasn't on to something.
By the way, the same thing is happening in the military: Bad, drunken sex being misconstrued--and misrepresented--as a crime. A Navy prosecutor friend, when assigned a new sex case, would ask, "Is this a real rape or a Navy rape." The difference between college and the military is that the military has its own criminal justice system (coupled with tremendous pressure on commanders to press weak cases that a DA wouldn't touch), so these cases go to a courtroom where the accused enjoys the criminal burden of proof rather than to some faculty panel. Which leads to a high acquittal rate for sex cases. Which Congress misconstrues as incompetence by military prosecutors, who can't make a rape out of a sow's ear. Which leads to more legislative meddling. By the way.
Is he so thick that he does not realize that what his base thinks about this issue?
By God, I think he is.
I asked the agent something close to your question: Why would a victim who'd been raped not take the unrestricted route?
He answered, Because at that point I have no choice. I'm going to go in and turn her life upside down, ask all sorts of really ugly personal questions, over and over again, try to shake her story and see if it changes, look into everything remotely connected to that incident, and not let up until it's all over. Which can take a long time.
Another big difference between the military and the academics. Nobody is going to do any turning upside down in campus inquiries. The one person who might, the accused, has no right to do so.
However, do not minimize the trauma of sexual abuse.
Who is?
The point is why is it COLLEGE that any concept of due process needs to be ignored to not hurt the feelings of the girls? When they graduate, how will they handle the real world when this bullshit isn't tolerated?
I think it's also time the media protect the ID of the accused and not just of the accuser. No names until a conviction occurs. And if a false claim is made, the accuser should be publicly named (looking at you, UVA Jackie).
An adversarial court with a hostile defense attorney is more than some can bear. If you put victims in a situation where they can remain anonymous and do not have to testify, more will come forward.
That, ultimately, is the accuser's issue. The accused has every right to know who is accusing them of a crime or else a defense is simply impossible. How does their trauma stack up to somebody convicted of a crime they didn't commit?
I suppose, but it would essentially have to be something established up front - a code of conduct and a punitive system with real due process - that the students would have to agree to upon enrollment.
But, honestly, what man would ever go that school? "You can have your life ruined and never go to another college again if a scorned girl is mad at you or didn't like the sex you had".
As I've said before, if there was an "epidemic" of rape on campus, you'd see fewer women attending. But you do not. Logically, if a restaurant had 2% of its customers coming down with food poisoning, the market would kill them (Chipotle, for all of its problems, is NOWHERE near that level and they're getting hammered). But some believe that a college can have a rape rate of 25% and women will still flock to it and parents will pay to subsidize the victimization?
I can only presume that this completely sensible position taken by Senator Sanders came as a result of the following phone call from Bill Clinton, for which I was privately given a transcript. I am the only person in the world with this transcript.
Sanders: Hello?
Clinton: Hey, Bernie, it's Bill Clinton.
Sanders: Mr. President, it's good to hear from you. I think the last time we talked was before the House vote on that impeachment thing. You had my vote all along, sir.
Clinton: Yeah, I know. But we couldn't take any chances. That line from you about "deplorable behavior" had Rahm Emanuel all fired up. I told him I'd call you. Anwyway, that's not why I'm calling now. You got the message about offering you Health & Human Services and then after that a blank check for the governorship in Vermont, right?
Sanders: Yes, Mr. President. I told them I was grateful and I'd do what it took. I told them I wouldn't lay a glove on your wife. Did you know that I came up with that debate line about how we all have better things to do than worry about her emails? That one was mine!
Clinton: Yeah yeah that was fine. Next time shoot me a text and my people will come up with something even better. It's what we do, you know?
Sanders: Yes, Mr. President. Yes, sir.
Clinton: Okay. So here's the thing. Hillary's numbers still stink. You have to give us something better to work with, and it has to be sexy, so we came up with "sexual assault." So what we want you to do is to go over to the area that James Taranto and Stuart Taylor have carved out and say that campus sexual assault allegations belong in the courts and not university administrative conference rooms. Basically what Rethuglicans have been saying all along.
Sanders: But Mr. President, that goes against the last four years of mostly explicit Obama Department of Education Office of Civil Rights strategy!
Clinton: Exactly. And by the way have I said "Screw that skinny kid from Hawaii!" lately?
Sanders: Mr. President we haven't spoken in 17 years.
Clinton: I gotta hurry up here; David Geffen has been waiting for me on the lanai for twenty minutes. So what you do is you go out and say that college sexual assault cases belong in courts. Things will get crazy after that; but you just leave the rest to me. Anyway, MSNBC is doing the kid's State of the Union address tonight and all that legacy bs. So they won't get after you too bad. It's just that later, Hillary will look like the true women's crusader. Got it?
Sanders: Yes sir.
Clinton: So how's your golf game?
Sanders: I don't play golf, Mr. President.
Clinton: Someday I'll tell you about playing golf in Vegas with Michael Jordan, Alice Cooper and Donald Trump. I lost 8 grand; that was after they paid me $600,000 that week for a speech. Alice Cooper was my partner for the last six holes and we lost the press when Trump's caddy found his ball on the opposite side of a 400-yard water hazard. He was so pissed off. I gotta go. You know what to do now?
Sanders: Yes, Mr. President. Before I say goodbye, can I ask one other thing about my HHS nomination?
[Clniton has hung up. End of transcript.]
"I'm going to go in and turn her life upside down, ask all sorts of really ugly personal questions, over and over again, try to shake her story and see if it changes, look into everything remotely connected to that incident, and not let up until it's all over."
That's not really how allegations of rape are investigated, except perhaps in the minds of those who don't want them reported to the police. Of course an investigator has to test an allegation, and to push any obvious inconsistencies, but generally, the allegation will be accepted as-is for purposes of the initial investigation and at the least, a chance for the suspect to be found and offered the opportunity to explain any alternate version of events. In the meantime, such real evidence as if available is collected and compared to the (presumably) different versions of the occurrence. Sometimes, maybe most of the time, that's all it takes. What the investigator thinks and what he/she can prove take shape quickly. Then it may - emphasize 'may' - come down to getting one of the parties to abandon a position and recant.
This idea that poor rape victims are subjected to some kind of third degree is just incorrect, assuming the story does not include allegations which are quite evidently false or incorrect.
not sure what their beef with [Paterno] was
For several years prior to the scandal the school had wanted him to retire so they could replace him with a younger coach, and had asked him to do so voluntarily, but he had refused. He had many supporters in the school but others thought he was too powerful. When they got a convenient opening to get rid of him, they took it and made him one of the fall guys.
By the way, it is completely possible to agree with (or concede for the purpose of argument) the feminist orthodoxy on the rape epidemic on campus and rape culture in general and still not want to change the rules regarding how we prosecute and convict people accused of rape.
Good for Bernie, the only person on the American Left who gets that Truth thing.
@ Pants ...
Very powerful and very well stated. We need more voices like yours on this and other web-sites.
@Rae,
That would make a great bumper sticker.
https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story
Pants said:
Why do we expect everyone else to put on their big girl panties and deal with the judicial system, but university students are more specialer?
University students are specialer because alot of time, money, and propaganda have been spent on them since age 6, and it would be stupid to lose them now.
In other words, thanks to Bernie the jig is up for mattress girl!
When these students see huge amounts of tuition paid, but in addition huge amounts of money paid for books, written by professors in order to capitalize within a monopolistic structure, the taint is clear.
Seeing athletes cheat and getting paid, pretty girls cry for A's, people apt to exude even more outrageous outrage than we, results in the need for stories designed for us to champion against, as no other story might not allow our unbridled heroism to be dimmed by wind or nature of any sort.
Well.."mattress girl" has a difficult choice this election..
Even a blind hog like Sanders finds an acorn once in a while, and this was his acorn.
Ninety percent of survivors polled by the National Alliance to End Sexual Violence and Know Your IX said they wanted to have the choice of whether to report or to whom, while 80 percent agreed that mandatory police reporting could "have a chilling effect on reporting.
Bullshit.
When are we going to stop using "perceptions" as proxies for reality?
What happens if you get raped by a townie? Can the university kick him out of town for you if you don't want to go to the police?
I never realized there were so many phony rape accusations.
The way this would have is a chilling effect is the realization that filing a false rape report has serious consequences, leaving one potentially open to jail time and law suits.
Why is this a controversial issue? Rape is a felony. It's the second most serious crime in a lot of peoples lexicon of crimes. Back home rapists went to the toughest prison in the state and the other cons took care of them. I'm good with using the ISIS cage on rapists. But the fact is women do lie about it. And successfully on occasion. That's why the legal process with full Constitutional rights is so important.
"Why is this a controversial issue?"
Welcome to Two Americas
"What happens if you get raped by a townie? Can the university kick him out of town for you if you don't want to go to the police?"
Interesting question. When I lived in a city in the SF Bay Area a local Mexican gangs initiation was raping a coed at the state university. This was over 50 years ago. The establishment response was the same as it has been recently. Don't make waves, we need their votes.
Trump will hang this on Clinton's wife, like a third millstone.
Trump: yea I dont know...Ask Clinton's wife why she opposes due process.Didn't she get some pedophile or rapist off on a technicality??? Something???? or did she destroy the victim on cross examination?? gee I dont remember,ask Clinton's wife about it, about destroying the reputation of victims, I just don't know.
"and added that victims shouldn't have to be in classes with their rapists."
Wow, Bernie really is the "law and order candidate".
I'd think "rapists" would be kicked off campus or put in jail as opposed to simply excluded from from certain classes.
But maybe I'm thinking of "rape, rape" as opposed to the other kind.
that's really not a controversial position. only a bunch of left wing radicals believe that bullshit. they don't count for much.
If an islamist rapes a student on campus, does the media make a sound?
You know, the Democrats would actually get some grudging support from me if they tried to tackle the actual rape crisis in the US (prisons) instead of this campus feminist fantasy thing they got going.
Drago said...
If an islamist rapes a student on campus, does the media make a sound?
1/12/16, 9:40 PM
Interesting observation. It's bound to happen that an Arab Muslim eventually is going to be accused of rape at one of these name universities like Columbia by a white woman accuser. What happens or doesn't happen will be interesting to see.
Can I make this into a bumbersticker? Oh for an "upvote" button....
Be my guest, you oppressive neurotypical tool of the patriarchy.
The sad part is, I don't actually know what half of SJWspeak means, and I think that's deliberate.
Maybe some of the victim's advocates should be investing some energy in persuading people to do the right thing and testify in a real court. Because if the cost of a lowered standard of evidence is that rapists go free, society loses two ways.
It's possible for someone to simultaneously be a victim and to behave selfishly. Refusing to testify except in a sham trial isn't very public spirited.
while 80 percent agreed that mandatory police reporting could "have a chilling effect on reporting.
Well, yes, if you have to make your complaint to competent people who will actually look into the issue, rather than blow you kisses, that could ahve a "chilling effect" on people who are making shit up.
We cant involve the police, because that would open up all the "victims" to charges of filing a false police report.
Because at that point I have no choice. I'm going to go in and turn her life upside down, ask all sorts of really ugly personal questions, over and over again, try to shake her story and see if it changes, look into everything remotely connected to that incident, and not let up until it's all over. Which can take a long time.
It's called collecting evidence and testimony. Do these women expect that their word is enough to sentence a man to prison? Nobody's freedom should be removed because one person made a claim. You can label "basic investigation work" in unpleasant language if one wishes, but it is insane.
Why do we expect everyone else to put on their big girl panties and deal with the judicial system, but university students are more specialer?
That would require one to assume that feminists don't want that lowered standard of proof for conviction to only exist on campuses. You get collegiate airheads to buy into this and, lo and behold, it will become public policy before too long.
Why minorities aren't raising Hell is baffling as a lack of due process tended to impact black men negatively for years and years.
Referrals to police have the following advantages:
1. Police are constrained by various protections of the accused as ignored by too many school persecutors;
2. "Spite" accusations are constrained by the laws regarding "False Swearing", "Perjury" and "Obstructing"; And,
3. The RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE to have such offenders detected, tried and punished are supported by such referrals.
Also, equity demands that universities (Foolish enough to "try" such cases) be required to severely punish those making false (Or, "half true") accusations against others by formal expulsion and banning from campus.
I'm going to go in and turn her life upside down, ask all sorts of really ugly personal questions, over and over again
Oh noes, she might cry. We can't have that.
Meanwhile, the male who was falsely accused has his future ruined and commits suicide behind some bar at age 30.
Maybe Sharia is on to something.
Ninety percent of survivors polled by the National Alliance to End Sexual Violence and Know Your IX
These days, when I hear X% of "survivors," I assume most of them are not really survivors. Sure, due process is inconvenient, but it takes a lefty activist to argue that that means there shouldn't be any.
I would amend that post if I could to delete "lefty". We're talking about lefties at the moment, but there are plenty of instances of conservative "law and order" types arguing against due process because it's inconvenient.
Lefties don't trust the police to investigate rape...but DO trust them to be the only people lawfully allowed to own guns.
Odd.
cubanbob said...
Drago said...
If an islamist rapes a student on campus, does the media make a sound?
1/12/16, 9:40 PM
Interesting observation. It's bound to happen that an Arab Muslim eventually is going to be accused of rape at one of these name universities like Columbia by a white woman accuser. What happens or doesn't happen will be interesting to see.
We already have a strong guide to how this will play out. Despite the widespread abuse of Title IX and campus sexual based witch (warlock?) hunts effectively no one on campus has fought back. One notable exception is KC Johnson, but he has been ignored and marginalized for doing so. Other criticisms which offer a glimmer of hope for the left such as Emily Yoffe and Hanna Rosin were off campus and were reviled and attacked by those on campus including by many who claimed the mantle of reasonable liberals as distinguished from the far left.
Events which occurred during this period and resulted in effectively no comment include the most obvious prosecutorial misconduct in post Jim Crow history and a case where the Tile IX investigator was proven to have invented the "facts" which justified a finding of "responsible". No campus figure has ever been negatively impacted by their participation in the Duke lacrosse case, even the professor sued for retaliating against non-suspect lacrosse players in class (the case was settled). The fraudulent Title IX investigator was promoted to Title IX Director. Yet almost no one on campus has spoken out at all.
Last year many Harvard Law professors were (finally) motivated to speak out against the movement. But lest we think they were motivated by fairness or a sense of justice the man profiled was black. In the end even when people on campus do something right it's in the service of the grievance hierarchy. Laura Kipnis spoke up but only to defend faculty from similar scrutiny.
Based on the Harvard example we can predict there will be some element of the campus that speaks up for the Muslim accused but that both it and the response will be quite muted as everyone understands they are allies and the vitriol and hatred needs to be reserved to circumstances where white males are accused, preferably those involved in groups like fraternities or lacrosse who can be easily portrayed as rich or privileged. Both groups will blame white males as the root cause.
Rick - Prof. Suk at Harvard Law School says that a disproportionate number of the sexual assault cases on campus are made against minority men. That would be consistent with the history of rape laws, which were applied much more heavily against blacks and other minorities. Has the left yet confronted this internal contradiction in the cultural Marxist playbook? No.
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