Althouse: "There can be no doubt that [Tamir] Rice’s death was tragic and, indeed, when one considers his age, heartbreaking."

October 11, 2015

"There can be no doubt that [Tamir] Rice’s death was tragic and, indeed, when one considers his age, heartbreaking."

"[But] Officer Loehmann’s belief that Rice posed a threat of serious physical harm or death was objectively reasonable as was his response to that perceived threat."

79 comments:

rhhardin said...: The more blacks shoot policemen, the more police will decide to shoot blacks in doubtful cases.

It's Bayes' theorem and also common sense. The math agrees with intuition.

You either have to repeal common sense or suggest to blacks that shooting at police is counterproductive, assuming that you want to end the profile that causes it.; 10/11/15, 9:00 AM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: The cop should obviously have his gun confiscated and lose all rights to gun ownership. He clearly lacks the necessities to own a gun.; 10/11/15, 9:01 AM
Nichevo said...: I still say his partner the driver did him no favors rolling up like that. Wet grass maybe but how do you discriminate between the need for aggressiveness and the need for reflection?; 10/11/15, 9:01 AM
Hagar said...: Tamir Rice was a quite large 12-year old, in a hoodie, at dusk in a drizzle, and carried one of those toy guns made to look as much as possible as a real gun, from which he had removed the orange identifying cap mandated by law.; 10/11/15, 9:02 AM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: Hagar said...
Tamir Rice was a quite large 12-year old, in a hoodie, at dusk in a drizzle, and carried one of those toy guns made to look as much as possible as a real gun, from which he had removed the orange identifying cap mandated by law.

And, by definition of the meaning of the words 'toy gun', was obviously not shooting at anyone or a threat to anyone.; 10/11/15, 9:09 AM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: According to BLM, a black should be allowed to draw a gun on a cop without getting shot. As their most brilliant thinkers put it, SMDH!; 10/11/15, 9:11 AM
khesanh0802 said...: As sort of an aside: in one of John Sandford's novels his hero, Lucas Davenport, is shot and nearly killed by a 12 year old that he thought was harmless. Life is as strange as fiction.; 10/11/15, 9:13 AM
khesanh0802 said...: ARM A serious question: Would you wait until you were shot to make the determination you were in danger? If your answer is yes, I want you standing right in front of me at that time.; 10/11/15, 9:16 AM
Hagar said...: ARM is about as unreasonable a person as can be imagined.; 10/11/15, 9:17 AM
Sebastian said...: "by definition of the meaning of the words 'toy gun', was obviously not shooting at anyone or a threat to anyone"

And, as everyone knows, that's what police are dealing with every day, definitions of meanings of words staring them in the face. They must be illiterate or something.; 10/11/15, 9:18 AM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: khesanh0802 said...
ARM A serious question: Would you wait until you were shot to make the determination you were in danger? If your answer is yes, I want you standing right in front of me at that time.

A more serious question: would you drive up to a 12 year old and then shoot him dead before determining whether or not he was a threat to anyone?; 10/11/15, 9:23 AM
Gahrie said...: And, by definition of the meaning of the words 'toy gun', was obviously not shooting at anyone or a threat to anyone.

No...the whole point is that it wasn't "obvious" that he posed no threat, and someone made an effort to make him appear to be a bigger threat than he was. (by removing the orange cap from the gun); 10/11/15, 9:28 AM
Nichevo said...: First off, arm, did he have his age tattooed on his forehead? Apparently he was a good sized fellow.; 10/11/15, 9:29 AM
Gahrie said...: would you drive up to a 12 year old and then shoot him dead before determining whether or not he was a threat to anyone?

So it is your belief that cops are driving around randomly shooting Black kids?

How come Black honor students are never killed by the cops? (Instead they're killed by their fellow Blacks); 10/11/15, 9:30 AM
Hagar said...: Nichevo has a point; if the driver had pulled up at a distance, there would have been time to figure out what was going on.
However; what was the department policy? What had the cops been told to do in training class?

There was another case where a nutcase was walking down the sidewalk brandishing a long gun and a cop ook him down using (and wrecking) the patrol car. This did not get to be a big media case, since the nutcase was did not get killed, but was only bruised up a bit, though the video of the scene was quite spectacular.
However, it turned out that the cops in that department had been told not to mess around; just take the perp out with the car if you can.; 10/11/15, 9:33 AM
jr565 said...: If you watch Die Hard (not a true story) you find the story of the black cop who is now doing menial desk work because a few years prior he shot a kid accidentally who had a toy gun that looked real. This was the whole reason behind why they put the red tips on the toy guns. Because the fake guns looked real and kids were killed playing with the fake guns.

This gun was a replica, and so does not look fake. In this world with teenagers in gangs there is no reason for cops to assume that this kid didn't have a real gun.; 10/11/15, 9:35 AM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: ARetardedMan said...

"And, by definition of the meaning of the words 'toy gun', was obviously not shooting at anyone or a threat to anyone."

First off, it wasn't a TOY gun, it was a REAL 1911-style pellet gun that a police detective on the scene after the shooting mistook for a lead-shooter. Second, it was definitely a threat, and officer Loehmann didn't have the benefit of hindsight to slowly and coolly determine that his life wasn't in danger.

Let's try an experiment. I'll bring a Colt .45 and an Airsoft replica, and I'll draw one of them on you, and you, in less than two seconds, tell me whether or not to pull the trigger. The prize for guessing right is a pellet at 400 ft/s in your face.; 10/11/15, 9:35 AM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: "In a memo to Independence, Ohio, human resources manager, released by the city in the aftermath of the shooting, Independence deputy police chief Jim Polak wrote that Loehmann had resigned rather than face certain termination due to concerns that he lacked the emotional stability to be a police officer. Polak said that Loehmann was unable to follow "basic functions as instructed". He specifically cited a "dangerous loss of composure" that occurred in a weapons training exercise, during which Loehmann's weapons handling was "dismal" and he became visibly "distracted and weepy" as a result of relationship problems. The memo concluded, "Individually, these events would not be considered major situations, but when taken together they show a pattern of a lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions, I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies." It was subsequently revealed that Cleveland police officials never reviewed Loehmann's personnel file from Independence prior to hiring him."; 10/11/15, 9:38 AM
jr565 said...: ARM wrote:
A more serious question: would you drive up to a 12 year old and then shoot him dead before determining whether or not he was a threat to anyone?

If you drive up to someone and it looks like they have a gun and might be pointing it at you, the threat is already determined.; 10/11/15, 9:43 AM
jr565 said...: "Let's try an experiment. I'll bring a Colt .45 and an Airsoft replica, and I'll draw one of them on you, and you, in less than two seconds, tell me whether or not to pull the trigger. The prize for guessing right is a pellet at 400 ft/s in your face."

And this is the whole point. ARM would never agree to this experiment of course. But even if a gun wasn't pointed at his face I doubt he'd be able to tell the difference by merely looking at the two guns. In this case though the gun may have been pointed at the cops. They have seconds to react.; 10/11/15, 9:45 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: Of course, ARM is unreasonable by most standards. The most likely reason for this s that his definition of what s reasonable depends on progressive orthodoxy. In this case, one of the main Dem party constituencies is aggrieved, and so he has to take their side, regardless of reality.

If I had been in the shoes of that police officer, I too probably would have shot the kid, too. The standard is essentially that the officer acted unreasonably, beyond a reasonable doubt (except, probably, in Ohio). Was it unreasonable, given the circumstances, to have believed that the kid was pulling a gun on the cops? The cop apparently saw a gun shaped object, without the orange tip, being drawn. Why was it unreasonable to assume that an object designed to look like a gun wasn't a gun, esp in bad light?

Let me add that part of the problem may have been that they are govt employees. In retrospect, the operator apparently had heard that the kid was probably such and the gun may have been fake. But that information was never apparently relayed to the responding officers. Tough luck there, but the operator has no personal liability there, because they are govt employees (and wasn't the one pulling the trigger). The govt screwed up, but that is what you should expect from an organization designed to protect its employees from personal experience.; 10/11/15, 9:48 AM
Ann Althouse said...: The question that I had was how tall was Tamir Rice and how much did he weigh? Because the police officer only knew how he looked, and had no way to know his actual age. He was 5 feet 7 inches tall and weighed 195 pounds.; 10/11/15, 9:50 AM
Gahrie said...: He was 5 feet 7 inches tall and weighed 195 pounds.

That was my height and aprox weight as an adult in college.; 10/11/15, 9:53 AM
Martha said...: 12 year olds do not play cops and robbers.

This kid was using the toy gun as a stand in for a real gun.; 10/11/15, 9:54 AM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: You should look at the video. The cops behavior was even more ridiculous than I remembered.; 10/11/15, 9:56 AM
Christopher said...: I imagine that ARM also regularly wonders why cops don't shoot to wound.

The only way to verify that the gun is fake is to physically check it which means that the person holding it needs to have dropped it and been taken into custody. The video shows the shooting occurred quickly and that upon their arrival the kid reached for the waist of his pants. The cops had no time to do anything but react.

Remember the only info the cops had was that a person was pointing a gun at people in a park by a youth center, the dispatcher did not relay the caller's thoughts about the gun possibly being fake.

You can make the argument that they pulled up too close if you want but as another commenter stated, we don't know what the policy is regarding the approach to a person believed to be armed and dangerous. Waiting until he becomes an active shooter seems to be a bit late to react.; 10/11/15, 9:56 AM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: Ann Althouse said...
The question that I had was how tall was Tamir Rice and how much did he weigh? Because the police officer only knew how he looked, and had no way to know his actual age. He was 5 feet 7 inches tall and weighed 195 pounds.

Going straight to the racist trope about scary super-human black men?

He was short and fat.; 10/11/15, 9:57 AM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: And there was a coverup.

From Wiki:

The initial account was given by Deputy Chief of Field Operations Ed Tomba, before the video emerged:

1. Police said that Rice was seated at a table with other people. The video showed that Rice was alone.

2. Police said that as they pulled up, they saw Rice grab the toy gun and put it in his waistband. This is not supported by the video. Judge Adrine said the video does not show the toy gun in Rice's hands in the moments immediately before as as the zone car approaches.

3. Police said they got out of the car and told Rice three times to put his hands up but he refused. The video shows Rice being shot almost immediately after Loehmann exits the vehicle.

4. Police said that Rice then reached into his waistband and pulled out the toy gun, and was then shot and killed by Officer Timothy Loehmann. The video shows that Rice did not pull out the toy gun. In the video, Rice is using both hands to hold his shirt up and expose the pellet gun to view just before he falls to the ground.

5. Police described the toy gun as looking real and later explained that the neon tip of the toy gun was missing. However the police never saw Rice brandish or point the pistol at them to determine if the orange cap was actually missing or not.; 10/11/15, 10:02 AM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: ALunaticMan said...
"In a memo to Independence, Ohio, human resources manager,..." All irrelevant to whether or not Tamir Rice reaching for drawing a 1911 replica air pistol from his waistband could reasonably be considered a deadly threat.; 10/11/15, 10:04 AM
Virgil Hilts said...: Police departments must war game for this type of stuff. I am going to assume the responding cops did not know he was kid. So the responding cops know that someone is acting strangely, has what looks to be a gun, but is not immanently threatening anyone. Hard to believe that the tactic taught at the police academy is the tactic the cops took here. It was negligent, borderline grossly negligent. However, the negligence may have been at the department level if they really do not teach cops the optimum strategy for dealing with this type of situation, which I believe must happen pretty often.; 10/11/15, 10:04 AM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: ARiculousMan said...

"Going straight to the racist trope about scary super-human black men?

He was short and fat."

It has nothing to do with your grandiose delusion of being super-human. It means the cop had no way of knowing that poor little Tamir was only 12 years old, and more to the point, a short and fat man with a gun, or boy, can kill you just as dead as a tall athletic man.; 10/11/15, 10:08 AM
Christopher said...: I see that ARM has reached the "racism" and "conspiracy" portion of his argument.; 10/11/15, 10:19 AM
Anonymous said...: I would have shot him...; 10/11/15, 10:21 AM
Christopher said...: By the way, it is a relatively common occurrence for people to commit robberies using pellet guns and water pistols because some of them are nearly impossible to differentiate from real weapons without physically examining them.; 10/11/15, 10:23 AM
Mike said...: "The more blacks shoot policemen, the more police will decide to shoot blacks in doubtful cases."

Well, police shootings are down. Way down. Police are less likely to be shot on the job than anytime since the 19th century.; 10/11/15, 10:25 AM
Jason said...: I had a similar "shoot or no-shoot" decision to make once on a kid, described here:

http://iraqnow.blogspot.com/2003/11/toy-guns.html

I didn't shoot. Neither did my SAW gunner.

If it were dusk, that kid would have been a goner.

Oh, and ARM is an idiot.; 10/11/15, 10:29 AM
Robert Cook said...: A prosecutor and F.B.I. agent decide the cop was acting reasonably. No surprise there. They're all part of the same fraternity.

I wonder how many proponents of "open carry" laws would howl if one of their own were preemptorily gunned down in a public space?; 10/11/15, 10:41 AM
James Pawlak said...: The Grand Jury should indict his parents for the Ohio equivalent of "Contributing To The Delinquency Of A Minor Resulting In Death" for allowing him to go about armed with a pistol as appeared to be a very dangerous firearm.; 10/11/15, 10:42 AM
Gahrie said...: He was short and fat.

He was the size of an average adult.; 10/11/15, 10:43 AM
khesanh0802 said...: Taking ARM's advice I watched the video. This is a video only in the sense that it is a series of still photos linked together. One can not tell what the kid is doing because the crucial seconds are in the hiatus between one still and the other. Proving once again that eye-witnesses - even cameras - are notoriously unreliable. I did see the kid brandishing the "weapon" several times in the footage. I presume that's why the police were called.; 10/11/15, 10:43 AM
Robert Cook said...: "Police departments must war game for this type of stuff."

Why would you assume that?; 10/11/15, 10:44 AM
Gahrie said...: I wonder how many proponents of "open carry" laws would howl if one of their own were preemptorily gunned down in a public space?

I wonder how many proponents of driving would howl if one of their own were killed in a hit and run on a public road?; 10/11/15, 10:47 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "You should look at the video. The cops behavior was even more ridiculous than I remembered.... He was short and fat."

I did look at the video. Actually, he didn't look fat. The height and weight surprise me, because he looked average-sized. Anyway, he was roaming around for a strangely long time in one place. I would have called the cops on someone behaving like that if I'd seen him out my window. I'd have said he looked dangerous and had a gun, and I would say that whatever race the person was, just based on the behavior.

I don't know the details of how he acted on the other side of the car, out of the view of the camera. I haven't read enough about this to know what was said to him and how he acted. I don't have an opinion on whether the police should have shot him, but I tend to separate these 2 questions: 1. Should the police officer be criminally prosecuted for how he handled a situation? and 2. Should police be trained to handle situations like this differently?; 10/11/15, 10:48 AM
Robert Cook said...: "I wonder how many proponents of driving would howl if one of their own were killed in a hit and run on a public road?"

A typically inapt analogy.; 10/11/15, 10:50 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Remember, we need good people to be willing to serve in the police force.; 10/11/15, 10:50 AM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: Ann Althouse said...
Remember, we need good people to be willing to serve in the police force.

Does Loehmann even come close to meeting this criteria? This is the report from the Independence, Ohio, human resources manager where he worked before going the Cleveland force

"Independence deputy police chief Jim Polak wrote that Loehmann had resigned rather than face certain termination due to concerns that he lacked the emotional stability to be a police officer. Polak said that Loehmann was unable to follow "basic functions as instructed". He specifically cited a "dangerous loss of composure" that occurred in a weapons training exercise, during which Loehmann's weapons handling was "dismal" and he became visibly "distracted and weepy" as a result of relationship problems. The memo concluded, "Individually, these events would not be considered major situations, but when taken together they show a pattern of a lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions, I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies."

It was subsequently revealed that Cleveland police officials never reviewed Loehmann's personnel file from Independence prior to hiring him." Apparently any warm body would do.; 10/11/15, 10:54 AM
MayBee said...: The cop was way out of line. They rolled up and shot. Didn't even take a second to figure out what was going on. Didn't even give Tamir a second to figure out what was going on.

They assumed he was dangerous, and he assumed he was just in the park with a toy gun. He didn't even know the police were on their way.

We can all expect better than this from any police force.; 10/11/15, 10:57 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "'Remember, we need good people to be willing to serve in the police force.' Does Loehmann even come close to meeting this criteria?"

I don't know. I haven't studied the details enough to know. But you are reinforcing my point. If it becomes a job where those who try to get it right are still in danger of being prosecuted to appease outraged citizenry, then the cautious person who analyzes things well will go into another line of work. If it becomes a disreputable job that has no honor in it, then who will you find to hire to do it?; 10/11/15, 11:21 AM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: Blogger Ann Althouse said...
I don't know. I haven't studied the details enough to know. But you are reinforcing my point.

I am not sure that ducking a specific question to engage in hypotheticals advances any argument. As Scott Walker has demonstrated on several occasions, cops can demand and will receive special treatment relative to other public servants. The job attracts people based on its very favorable financials relative to other public service positions, which is why we should demand and expect excellence and service, not bumbling incompetence, as was displayed by the Cleveland human resources department.; 10/11/15, 11:43 AM
William said...: The cop cold have handled it better, but the kid was monumentally foolish. Is it easier to train police to act with more restraint or to teach children not to play with realistic looking weapons in playgrounds? In ambiguous situations, I think we should give the police the benefit of the doubt......Sometime in the next month or so, some gang banger will shoot up a playground and kill an innocent child. It will make the news that night and then pass into oblivion without outrage or comment.; 10/11/15, 11:57 AM
Bill, Republic of Texas said...: I've never seen this before but ARM and Cook wiped the floor with the commented and Althouse.

The video is disgusting, the 911 operator was criminally derelect, and the HR people were criminally neglegent in the hiring.

You conservatives love you some big incompetent givernment when it involves police.

And Alhouse's argument that we can't criticise the cops when they are out of control for fear they'll get out of control is just bizarre.; 10/11/15, 12:07 PM
Michael K said...: "was obviously not shooting at anyone or a threat to anyone."

A good way to get killed is to wait until someone shoots at you. In Oregon, a girl student looked out the door to see what was happening and was shot dead by the killer.

"As Scott Walker has demonstrated on several occasions, cops can demand and will receive special treatment relative to other public servants."

The mandatory Walker snark. Do you mean his actions with respect to police and framing unions ? I assume so. Does it occur to you that they are the only public employees with a reasonable claim to unions?; 10/11/15, 12:08 PM
MayBee said...: Jobs become disreputable both when good people are mistreated while performing them, and when people who do the job poorly (fatally poorly) are not held to account.

We do not want a police force that shoots first, assesses the situation second. This cop was not in an untenable or unsustainable situation.

And yes, gangbangers are shooting innocent children all the time and it goes without notice. They are still criminals. Their behavior doesn't excuse cops, who should be professional enough not to shoot innocent children on playgrounds in 2 seconds. Literally.; 10/11/15, 12:11 PM
Michael K said...: "he assumed he was just in the park with a toy gun"

I believe he had threatened some others with that gun and that was the reason why the police were called.

I am not defending that particular officer. I have testified against the LAPD in court because an officer shot a patient of mine who was clearly unarmed and cooperating with a search based on nothing more than a stakeout of a women he had the misfortune to walk out of a party with. He got nothing. His life was ruined although he was not killed.; 10/11/15, 12:12 PM
Big Mike said...: You conservatives love you some big incompetent givernment [sic] when it involves police.

@Bill, you liberals love big incompetent government for everything but the police. I can imagine you turning cartwheels down the hall when EPA released toxic chemicals into the Animas River and then in a burst or ignorance or plain malice told the Navajos it was safe to drink.

You can count me as a conservative who thinks Loehmann handled this wrong. I don't understand why officers no longer seem to be giving suspects with guns an opportunity to surrender peaceably. Is the problem with their body armor or is the problem with their training?; 10/11/15, 12:30 PM
cubanbob said...: AReasonableMan said...

Blogger Ann Althouse said...
I don't know. I haven't studied the details enough to know. But you are reinforcing my point.

I am not sure that ducking a specific question to engage in hypotheticals advances any argument. As Scott Walker has demonstrated on several occasions, cops can demand and will receive special treatment relative to other public servants. The job attracts people based on its very favorable financials relative to other public service positions, which is why we should demand and expect excellence and service, not bumbling incompetence, as was displayed by the Cleveland human resources department."

You are making a great argument for holding the responsible party or parties at the HR department and or other departments personally liable financially.; 10/11/15, 1:00 PM
Nichevo said...: I don't think anybody here is happy with this or wants to defend it as a great job of police work. Is that the point that someone wants to make? Is it raycissm? Rot in the police HR system leading to bad apples? Is there any remedy imagined? I suppose maybe it would make sense to have every police officer and civilian aid psych and gunnery tested for stability or qualifications or whatever you think is going to make this not happen again.

There was a very bad set of circumstances in play. We also don't see what was not on the camera. I think the driver has a lot of culpability in the situation weather for wet grass or for recklessness. I thought it was a very bad job tactically... It's almost like Denzel Washington in training day trying to trip up the new recruit. Couldn't have asked for a more vivid shoot no shoot call and in the situation he had literally no margin for error. And it sure sounds like Loehmann was a weak sister.

Frankly, if it was a real gun and a determined combatant, as opposed say to a punk kid or somebody having a generic freak out or a husband who shut up the wife once and for all and is sipping his coffee waiting to be taken away,

I think you have two dead officers.

I'm very angry with the Erik Scott/Costco shooting by LVPD, but at least they were tactically competent. There's a difference between an Okay, buddy, I'm not taking you in today Bang!, and an oh my god oh my god what do I do Bang! Is there not, professor? Isn't it mens rea?; 10/11/15, 1:36 PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: Bill, Republic of Texas said...
"I've never seen this before but ARM and Cook wiped the floor with the commented and Althouse."

There you have it, folks, Bill has declared the winners of this debate! I feel so bad about losing this one, but at least Tamir Rice is dead.; 10/11/15, 2:31 PM
Michael K said...: "Bill has declared the winners of this debate"

I just wonder if "Bill" is another sock puppet of Ritmo. Sounds about as crazy.; 10/11/15, 2:54 PM
William said...: It's fair enough to sat that the police officer acted rashly. But do you define an ill considered act a criminal act? If so, how criminal is it?.....I'm asking this question in genuine curiousity. Do you think the police officer deserves to be charged with murder and sent to jail for this act?; 10/11/15, 3:18 PM
William said...: Also one notes that we have some background on the officer, but none on the child. How does the child come to be waving a realistic looking weapon around in the playground. Are there any incidences of abuse in his family's past. What's his school record........We learned far more about Darren Wilson than we did about Michael Brown. My guess is that store clerk is not he only person Michael Brown ever bullied in his life and that the press was not over zealous in discovering past instances of bad behavior.; 10/11/15, 3:25 PM
Christopher said...: There seems to be an odd belief amongst certain groups that cops are required to allow criminals to take a shot or two at them in order to prove that a gun is real.; 10/11/15, 3:53 PM
Laslo Spatula said...: Marquess of Queensberry rules, people.

Wait. What?

I am laslo.; 10/11/15, 4:19 PM
The Godfather said...: @Christopher: As I recall, the TV shows of my childhood fostered the idea that the good guy never shot first. I think it was Sergeant Preston of the Yukon who taught us that the Mounties not only always get their man, they never shoot first. The bad guy was always a bad shot. The American western heroes never DREW first, if you recall the beginning of Gunsmoke, but they did SHOOT first because they were quicker on the draw.

If the police could count on screen writers to provide them with adversaries who are slow, poor shots, I'm sure that would substantially reduce the instances of "reasonable" police shootings of people who turn out not to be a threat.; 10/11/15, 4:55 PM
Achilles said...: If you watch that video the police actions were ridiculous. Anyone watching this video and defending the police is knee-jerk at best and racist at worst.

Seriously people watch the video. That is not the way to handle this situation.

Likely it was called in by someone who saw a 5'7" 195 pound person walking around a park with a gun. Got it he did not look like a kid. But he had been there for minutes at least without shooting anyone. They should have parked and approached from a distance and set up perimeter security. If they had done that and waited for an approach team this situation would have not turned out the way it did.

They were driving around barriers, on the grass in between trees to a gazebo in a park. For fucks sake that is stupid. If it was a live shooter they were in a vehicle and vulnerable. What were they going to do run him over?

These police officers are terrible and should be fired. We should require more from people we trust to carry a monopoly on force.; 10/11/15, 5:31 PM
Nichevo said...: Sounds about right, Achilles. Wouldn't the thing be to get somebody lined up with a clean shot and then, somebody with clanging brass ones walks up to the suspect and invites him to tell his troubles, or come try the coffee down at the precinct, or run on home to mama, as the case may be. That's assuming you decide on SOP to treat the suspect as Hannibal Lecter instead of gee-is-that-a-kid-with-a-pellet-gun. Tactically they were hamburger, if it was Jihad Joe with an RPK.

I continue amazed that we haven't had a Bombay attack, or a dozen of them.; 10/11/15, 6:48 PM
Nichevo said...: I don't think they should go to jail, or if so, would have to be convinced. But I think they should stop being policemen anymore and go do something else.; 10/11/15, 6:49 PM
jr565 said...: The video is tough to watch, because as others mentioned, its basically still photographs. And taken from far away. But regardless, those saying the cops were 100% in the wrong and should have known are engaged in monday morning quarterbacking.
I'll side with those in the link who said the cops belief"that Rice posed a threat of serious physical harm or death was objectively reasonable as was his response to that perceived threat."
Because it was. Saying that, it could even be true that despite having a legitimate fear and acting appropriately (based on the threat assessment) the wrong result was still achieved.
You can only argue hindsight when you know the facts because the action has already occurred.

I recommend people read Malcolm Gladwell on the amadou diablo shooting. (http://www.amazon.com/Blink-Power-Thinking-Without/dp/0316010669/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1444607730&sr=8-1&keywords=how+we+think+without+thinking)
They shot an unarmed guy. Was it reasonable that they shot him? Well yes, actually. Based on the events and how they transpired it was reasonable to shoot him. Because the cops in the situation were going on lack of perfect knowledge but and based their actions on snap judgements. which are often wrong. Amadou was in a darkened vestibule so vision was not 100%. Then one of the cops moved in to confront Amadou. For some reason he flinched thinking Amadou was going for a gun, (he was in fact going for a wallet) and fell off the stairs onto his butt, back. And when he fell he discharged his gun. All the other cops seeing their fellow officer go down, and thinking he was just shot, because they heard the gun fire immediately returned fire. And turned out to have made a mistake.
But if cops assume that their fellow officer was shot its not unreasonable to return fire. Had they waited another 15 seconds they could have determined the situation was not in fact life threatening> but if they waited 15 seconds they might end up dead, like their fellow officer. (they assume); 10/11/15, 7:04 PM
Michael said...: Find a picture of the "toy" gun. I own guns, approve of owning guns, and would doubt any anti-gun lefty would differ from me in thinking it was a real gun.; 10/11/15, 7:37 PM
Michael said...: Wonder why this kid was walking around with a replica?; 10/11/15, 7:58 PM
Nichevo said...: Replicas are cool. If I'd had one as a kid...no, even then I wasn't that stupid.

Just throwing this out there...why was everyone strangers? Wasn't there someone to say, Ooh, that Rice boy is at it again, better call his mama?; 10/11/15, 8:08 PM
Big Mike said...: @jr565, why didn't the cops give him a chance to put down the gun and surrender?; 10/11/15, 9:43 PM
Carnifex said...: I think only a few of the commentators, and I know ARM and Cookie never, thought of the fact that police deal with the lowest of our society on a daily basis. They see and hear every sort of depravity, and lie a society can invent. Such exposure has to degrade your faith in most humanity. I know when my Dad would get new trainee's he would warn them about what sort of lies to expect, and that the people telling them would seem completely honest and trustworthy. It was hilarious to see their faces when they found out that Dad was absolutely right. It's actually a testiment to their training that more people aren't shot out of hand. If ARM is so upset about cops shooting unarmed black people, then he should man up, join the force, and change the culture.

But you know he won't.; 10/11/15, 11:40 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: BM - I think that the problem is that you really need to decide quickly whether or not to shoot. If he had been pulling out a real pistol, instead of maybe the unmarked replica, then waiting when you should be shooting could be fatal. How fast can someone draw and accurately fire? Guys I know who practice a bit can do t in seconds (but are drawing from a holster instead of a waist band). You may have more time if you have more guns on the potential BG. But, if it is one on one, frost to fire accurately is more likely the one to go home to his family.; 10/12/15, 12:04 AM
Achilles said...: Carnifex said...
"I think only a few of the commentators, and I know ARM and Cookie never, thought of the fact that police deal with the lowest of our society on a daily basis. They see and hear every sort of depravity, and lie a society can invent. Such exposure has to degrade your faith in most humanity. "

I was only in Battalion for 4 deployments but we had the same issues. Every night we went out we dealt with the shittiest people in the area. But you still saw the other people. Less so because we always went out at night but we still saw them. I will say that we have a very clouded view of Muslims, especially the males.

But.

That does not mean it was ok to act like these two cops did. What you people don't seem to understand is if you act like these two cops did, and it is allowed and accepted, then it destroys the faith the locals have in the institution. That is more important than you guys seem to think.; 10/12/15, 12:07 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: I think that we all need to accept that this kid earned himself a Darwin Award. He is not going to be passing the genes to his progeny that found it smart to appear to be pulling out a replica that looks like a real gun around armed cops.; 10/12/15, 12:10 AM
Nichevo said...: It doesn't seem right that we don't know anything about the kid.; 10/12/15, 6:09 AM
President-Mom-Jeans said...: Good Lord, it is sad to see UnReasonable Bitch be right about for something for once.

I am quite used to Althouse being wrong, but seeing some other usually smart commenters making excuses for this incompetent clown with a badge is a bit dissapointing.

Althouse has her blind spot when it comes to gay marraige, apparently a bunch of others have it when it comes to badge worship.; 10/12/15, 10:32 AM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: AReasonableMan said...
"Ann Althouse said...
Remember, we need good people to be willing to serve in the police force.

Does Loehmann even come close to meeting this criteria?"

It doesn't matter if Loehmann was judged to be incompetent in the past, or never should have been hired, or was incompetent in general. I was a generally incompetent baseball player once upon a time, does that invalidate the times I actually made few good plays?

What matters is Officer Loehmann's conduct in this particular incident, and it was judged by competent investigators, incl. the FBI, to have been reasonable under the circumstances. Granted, the FBI men don't have ARM's superhuman ability to judge in a split second whether or not a gun is a realistic replica or the real thing, but they do their best.; 10/12/15, 2:25 PM