Althouse: "But more and more research reveals that though the thought of a smart woman is appealing to men..."

October 25, 2015

"But more and more research reveals that though the thought of a smart woman is appealing to men..."

"... a real, live smart woman standing in front of them is actually a turnoff."

Abstractions are more appealing than particularities. It's easy to think of "smart" as a positive characteristic, but any given smart person is likely to have used that smartness to arrive at other characteristics that are going to complicate the good. But the study in question never confronts the men with women who actually are smart, so my theory wasn't tested. The men were just told that the women had done better on a test, so the study only looked at the abstraction and what effect it had on the minds of men when they were not confronted with meeting a woman and when they were. In real life, you meet people and you don't know how smart they are. You become aware as you get to know the person as an individual, with all their characteristics, and if they are smart, you only figure that out as you're also seeing what they do with their intelligence, whether they show off, condescend, and seek advantage or whether they're modest, ethical, and interested in other people.

65 comments:

Lewis Wetzel said...: Research from Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin. Huh.
There was a scandal, recently, when it was discovered that only half of the results of published psychological research could be duplicated.
This can go in the circular file.; 10/25/15, 6:44 AM
MathMom said...: My husband is a math genius. I'm not, but I also do not drool. He always said he looked for someone smart when he was in college, but most of the smart girls could also arm-wrestle him. The thought of a smart woman is appealing to him, and married me.

We were both self-employed computer consultants for awhile. He made more than me. One month I had lots of hours and hauled in a bigger paycheck than him - he called all his brothers and sisters and parents and told them that we had a "red letter day" to report - I had out-earned him. He was proud of that.; 10/25/15, 7:15 AM
sinz52 said...: "Men were given an intelligence test and then told they were about to meet a woman who had done better than them on the test. Men who were presented with this proposal distanced themselves more from her"

Was there any control group for this test?

What if men were presented with other *men* who had outperformed them on the intelligence test? Might they also not feel a little depressed or jealous too?

Do men like to have male friends who are significantly smarter than themselves? Judging by all the male ridicule of other males who are geeks and nerds, I would tend to say no.

That has nothing to do with sexism. It has to do with the fact that ordinary folks (regardless of gender) tend to view brainy people as having little in common with them (which is frequently untrue).; 10/25/15, 7:20 AM
Ann Althouse said...: I don't know why people think they know who's smarter. If you believe you're smarter than the other person, he may be playing you. I've known some smart people who've used the rhetorical device of saying "You're smarter than I am." What are they up to?; 10/25/15, 7:27 AM
Ann Althouse said...: At the other extreme, the person who seriously acts like he thinks he's the smartest person in the room is often the fool, but I won't say that never works. For example, Donald Trump keeps asserting that's he's very smart. But I don't think he claims to be smarter than everyone else, only that he's very smart. He takes shots at others, but I don't think saying they're not smart is in his Bag of Insults.; 10/25/15, 7:32 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: Mine is the "modest, ethical, and interested in other people" kind of Intelligence.

I am here for you, people.

Even the smart chicks.

I am Laslo.; 10/25/15, 7:50 AM
Bob Ellison said...: Years ago, I was sitting at lunch with several other people, and someone asked of the group, "Would you choose to be smarter if you could?" He then looked at me and said "I know Bob would." I had still been pondering the silliness of the question-- who wouldn't choose to be smarter? And it took me a while to figure out that he had pulled off a funny insult while also poking my vanity.

I like smart women and men of all stripes, so long as they're smart about what they're smart about and humble about what they're not.; 10/25/15, 7:53 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: "But in a second scenario, men were given an intelligence test and then told they were about to meet a woman who had done better than them on the test. Men who were presented with this proposal "distanced themselves more from her, tended to rate her as less attractive, and showed less desire to exchange contact information or plan a date with her."

I would need to see photos of these women to better judge the conclusion.

Seriously.

Obvious number One: Were they attractive in an outgoing manner? Did they smile? Any light touching?

Two: How were they dressed, compared to the men? Were they dressed in a casual manner, or in a way that implied expensive tastes and class distinctions?

Three: What was their body language? Were they engaging in conversation?

Four: What subjects were brought up? Professional or casual?

Basically: were the men introduced to an outgoing, interested person, or to an abstraction?

I am Laslo.; 10/25/15, 8:08 AM
Rusty said...: Alot of women think they're smart.
When in reality they're self absorbed bitches.
If you have to tell me you're smart,
you're probably not.; 10/25/15, 8:16 AM
William said...: I'd rather be rich than smart. Sexual magnetism also has more perks than brains. Good health and a durable back are also more desirable than brains. I'd put brains fairly low on the list of things that make for a happy life.; 10/25/15, 8:30 AM
Bob Ellison said...: Laslo Spatula, that's the difference between Janeane Garafolo and, say, Ellen DeGeneres.; 10/25/15, 8:35 AM
Eleanor said...: There are things men and women value in each other. They value physical attractiveness. They value wealth. They value fitness and athletic ability. Some people also value intelligence. If a woman doesn't have what a particular man values, then she should move on to a man who values her. And vice versa. I can't imagine my life with a football player even if he had a lot of money, but he's not suffering because I don't want him. A lot of women do. Smart women really don't want to get saddled with a man who wants an air-head, and they know that because they're smart. Maybe they're "self-absorbed" because they find you totally boring.; 10/25/15, 8:41 AM
Lewis Wetzel said...: Alas, the glory of a Trump-Biden televised presidential debate will forever be denied us!; 10/25/15, 8:43 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: To paraphrase Ike Turner:

"Smart wimmens be thinkings too much."

I am Laslo.; 10/25/15, 8:45 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: "Smart women really don't want to get saddled with a man who wants an air-head, and they know that because they're smart."

Some would say this is condescending to men, but I would also say it is condescending to women who aren't perceived as smart.

Smart women know all about the 'dumb' ones.

I am Laslo.; 10/25/15, 8:53 AM
James Pawlak said...: Were tax monies used to fund this "research"?

If so, was such spending necessary for the "COMMON GOOD"?; 10/25/15, 8:57 AM
rhhardin said...: There's nothing about sense of humor.; 10/25/15, 8:58 AM
Tarrou said...: "Intelligence" in the abstract is fine, especially as opposed to "unintelligent".

In reality, the people most likely to get perceived as "intelligent" are doing something to be perceived thus. There's plenty of ways of doing it, but there is a female equivalent of "gigantic dork". Being dowdy, condescending and arrogant rarely wins friends.

Intelligence is a great asset, but only when combined with the personality and character to make use of it without being an asshole. Feminism has spent fifty years telling smart women the way to use their intelligence is to be intolerable assholes, and then sue for discrimination.

Oh, and none of this has any impact whatsoever on male sexual interest. That is purely, 100% physical. Intelligence is orthogonal, as is every single other female trait.; 10/25/15, 8:59 AM
Hagar said...: My grandmother was much the most intelligent person in the family.
And her five sons and three daughters were all achievers.

BTW, "smart" and "intelligent" do not necessarily mean the same thing.; 10/25/15, 9:01 AM
rehajm said...: More salve for the hurt women get when the type of men they are attracted to aren't attracted to them.; 10/25/15, 9:05 AM
Anonymous said...: sinz52: Was there any control group for this test?

No kidding.

The internet is awash with people consoling themselves that the other sex is intimidated by/actively hostile to brains. (Yep, for every feminist whining about shallow men being intimidated by their alleged brains, there's a nerd cursing all those vapid bitches out there who are turned off by his mighty intellect.) Also, badly-designed studies.

I'd say in general men don't mind a woman a little dumber than they are, and don't want a woman really smarter than they are, whereas women might prefer a man a little smarter than they are, and don't want a man dumber than they are. I doubt many people of either sex want a long-term partner outside of their own smarts ballpark. And nobody wants someone whose high SAT/IQ test scores are their only selling point.; 10/25/15, 9:11 AM
Matt Sablan said...: This is surprising. Most men I like actually prefer smart women. I wonder if they controlled for other qualities in the smart women.

Either or, take this: "The men who were told they were about to meet a more intelligent woman "distanced themselves more from her, tended to rate her as less attractive, and showed less desire to exchange contact information or plan a date with her," the study said."

So... did they compare these men's reaction to this more intelligent woman both before and after they knew she was more intelligent? Also, isn't this... kind of obvious

"Imagine a romantic partner. The only quality we'll give you about her is that she's scored better than you or less than you on a test. Now, meet this real woman. Which one is more to your liking?"

Gee, the fantasy woman who can be EVERYTHING the guy wants, plus slightly smarter, or the real, live woman who -- for any number of non-intelligence reasons, might put off the guy? Gee folks -- I'm no scientist, but, I think, I think mind you -- I don't know -- WHY the fantasy woman might more consistently do better than the real woman.; 10/25/15, 9:32 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: I bet most men have had, at one time or another, the fantasy about the naughty librarian with the glasses that are just waiting to come off when the hair is let down.

Librarians are smart.

I hope this helped.

I am Laslo.; 10/25/15, 9:38 AM
Matt Sablan said...: ... Gah. They used 105 men for the fantasy woman, 151 DIFFERENT men for the meet the real woman study.

HOW IS THIS SCIENCE!?; 10/25/15, 9:39 AM
Matt Sablan said...: Like, seriously. How did this methodology pass muster?

"Ah, right. So, you used one group for your first trial. What control did you have?"

"None, really."

"Well, alright then. When you put them through the second test --"

"Different group, actually."

You couldn't do that with almost any other test! "We tested how this pill might react in water, then we tested this other pill's reaction with cola. We think the pill might not react well with either water or cola. But, we haven't actually tested this theory in a controlled environment."

I wasted 15 minutes of my morning reading about this non-study. What a waste.; 10/25/15, 9:41 AM
Anonymous said...: Matthew Sablan:

HOW IS THIS SCIENCE!?

It is SCIENCE!. (Alternative sp: Science!.)

It's just not science.; 10/25/15, 9:46 AM
Matt Sablan said...: You know the only way you could get away with using two different groups in two different situations to come to a conclusion about a larger group that the two different groups were a part of?

If you already knew your conclusion and simply were looking for anecdotes to call data.

This was nothing more than confirming a bias.; 10/25/15, 9:46 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: Women who self-identify as smart need a reason to console them on their way to single cat-lady status.

I am Laslo.; 10/25/15, 9:53 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: "...the fantasy about the naughty librarian ..."

I once had sex with a librarian.

Oh Man: I Dewey Decimaled all over her face.

She was wearing the naughty librarian glasses, so it was hot.

I am Laslo.; 10/25/15, 9:56 AM
Bob Ellison said...: Anglelyne said, "I doubt many people of either sex want a long-term partner outside of their own smarts ballpark."

The evidence shows that spouses tend strongly to sort themselves according to IQ.

The numbers are roughly comparable to kids/parents. In other words, IQ similarity between spouses is roughly similar to IQ similarity between parents and their kids.

In Hollywood or Trumpland, different rules apply.; 10/25/15, 10:01 AM
Michael K said...: This is ridiculous and NY Magazine is not exactly a scientific source. Charles Murray wrote a book about this and expressed concern that highly intelligent men and women were meeting and marrying at elite universities. He was concerned that men no longer married "the girl next door" and that this selective mating behavior was creating an intelligence elite who were having children that would constitute another elite remote from the average American experience. Male and female medical students marry each other. Young doctors don't marry nurses anymore. Women doctors do tend to marry "down" to firemen and paramedics who work shift schedules, which helps with child rearing. The men they marry don't seem to worry about "smarter women."

This stuff is nonsense and it is just more virtue signaling by feminist writers and law professors.; 10/25/15, 10:02 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: If smart women were really so smart you'd think they'd learn to give better blow-jobs.

Because -- for the most part -- smart women suck at sucking cock.

It's not rocket science, ladies.

Also: the correct answer is -- of course -- 'swallow.'

Don't get me going on about anal.

I am Laslo.; 10/25/15, 10:10 AM
Bob Ellison said...: Yet Marlee Matlin married a traffic cop assigned to her filming set. They're still married.

There goes one of the prettiest actresses of our age, marrying some guy she decided was worth it. He's probably got some talents.

I don't mean to signify that I've got a thing for Matlin. I'm happily married.; 10/25/15, 10:13 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: Bob Ellison said...
"Yet Marlee Matlin married a traffic cop assigned to her filming set. They're still married.

There goes one of the prettiest actresses of our age, marrying some guy she decided was worth it."

I'm afraid that your point may fall on deaf ears.

I am Laslo.; 10/25/15, 10:17 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: Michael K said...
"...He was concerned that men no longer married "the girl next door"..."

And now Playboy is no longer going to have nude photos of "the girl next door."

The Girl Next Door has left the Neighborhood.

I am Laslo.; 10/25/15, 10:27 AM
Rusty said...: Elanore.
Women find me a lot of things, but boring isn't one of them.
Can intelligent women be self absorbed?
Of course.; 10/25/15, 10:31 AM
n.n said...: Smart is an attractive, even desirable quality when coupled with humility. Smart people will realize this relation. Class warfare is a fool's enterprise; 10/25/15, 10:41 AM
Birkel said...: Anything more than a couple standard deviations away from the mean can be difficult to manage. That is true for both parties in a relationship.

Now Laslo can talk about things that are sized more than two standard deviations away from the mean.; 10/25/15, 10:50 AM
Lewis Wetzel said...: Laslo wrote:
"She was wearing the naughty librarian glasses, so it was hot."
If you were a girl librarian, and you weren't very naughty at all, you would have to be very careful when you picked out your eyeglasses.; 10/25/15, 11:04 AM
Tyrone Slothrop said...: If you think you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.; 10/25/15, 11:08 AM
jr565 said...: More and more research would suggest that male nerds don't make it with the ladies either. They prefer the bad boy or the guy with pecs.
If the male nerd also founded Facebook, then I'm sure ladies are flocking to his door. But simply being smart is not necessarily a positive trait. Very smart people are also often very socially awkward.
So, with all that in mind, If the woman is very smart, it may not in itself be a turn on.; 10/25/15, 11:12 AM
rcocean said...: What is smart? Lots of people are STEM smart, and boring to talk to.; 10/25/15, 11:16 AM
the gold digger said...: Maureen Dowd wrote a few years ago that she intimidated men with all her smartness.

My mom is super smart - full-ride scholarship to UW - but she has had five marriage proposals in the 18 years since my dad died. My mom is smart - and she is also nice. She is also chubby with gray hair - and she is nice. Nice is what matters.; 10/25/15, 11:18 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Ann Althouse said...
At the other extreme, the person who seriously acts like he thinks he's the smartest person in the room is often the fool, but I won't say that never works.

What about someone who sincerely believes they're the smartest person in the room? Like, who thinks they're better speechwriter than their speechwriters, or a better intelligence analyst than their trained, professional intelligence analysts? Just as a hypothetical, of course.

NYTimes: Obama Plays to Win in Politics and Everything Else; 10/25/15, 11:42 AM
mikee said...: Based on the description of the study, the "men" were college students taking part in Psych Dept studies, perhaps as a way to earn a few extra bucks.

That makes the study's results sensible.

Dating women who do better than you in class is a pathway to both romance/sex AND better grades, so pick the smart women. The test subjects did that.

Dating women who test as more intelligent than you will reveal your callow youth and inexperience, so choose the less intelligent women to date. The test subjects did that.

This study was revelatory only about the men undergoing the study, not adults, and definitely not anyone except men in a college setting.; 10/25/15, 11:57 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: I put up with a lot of smart women while gaining my Experience of the American Female.

Let's just say: ladies, if you're not smart enough to occasionally put on the Cheerleader Outfit in the bedroom then you are Not Smart where it matters.

I should write a Book.

I am Laslo.; 10/25/15, 12:19 PM
Old Dad said...: Common sense says that looks and brains are less likely to occur together than looks or brains independently. Relatively speaking, there aren't a lot of really good looking people, and there aren't a lot of really smart people. There are a lot more pretty good looking people and pretty smart people and on up and down the bell curve.

My guess is that people tend to seek their own level for the most part.; 10/25/15, 12:42 PM
Bob Ellison said...: And then there's Hedy Lamarr.; 10/25/15, 1:40 PM
Static Ping said...: I think I said something similar the last time this subject came up. Lots of things sound great in abstraction because it is a fantasy. The smart woman is abstraction starts with "we are happy forever" and then "smart" is grafted on. That entire middle part of building a relationship with all its risks is skipped.

Back in reality, the smart woman can be intimidating for a variety of reasons. There is the fear from the man that he is not smart enough to keep her interest long term. There is the fear that the man does not make enough money to keep her searching for an alternative. There is the fear that being smart the woman has more options and if the man does not think of himself as especially desirable that she will reject him. This gets worse if she is good looking. There is even the issue that smart people can and are interested in things that people of average intelligence generally are not. It may do no good if the two people are of equal intelligence but one is a math nerd and the other an art history professor. These sorts of unknowns are scary.; 10/25/15, 2:14 PM
Anonymous said...: You are an imbecile.

"But in a second scenario, men were given an intelligence test and then told they were about to meet a woman who had done better than them on the test."

The women they were then present were not actually smarter than them. So where was the "real, live smart woman standing in front of them"? Only in your delusional imagination.

Get some real, live, honestly smarter women than the IQ 120+ males, and run the test (130 v 120 is "honestly smarter", 122 v 120 is "margin of error"). Until then, all you got is bullshit.; 10/25/15, 3:08 PM
Anonymous said...: Or, here's a thought: do actual research. Get 30 men, 30 women, IQ test them all, then have them meet and record their opinions of each other, without telling any of them who's smarter.

Then see how men, and how omen, respond to people who are actually smarter, or dumber, than they are.; 10/25/15, 3:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Perhaps by "smart," they really mean "not a drooling idiot."

It doesn't really matter. You're as smart as you are, no more, no less. If you try to adjust your outer personality to appear less intelligent and therefore less annoying and/or intimidating, you simply succeed in becoming a smart person who is now also manipulative.; 10/25/15, 4:03 PM
hombre said...: La Senora is a gorgeous, magna cum laude grad, who was a successful lawyer and judge. I was so intimidated it is a wonder I found the courage to propose. 😂 Bwahaha!

What absolute rubbish!; 10/25/15, 7:58 PM
robother said...: From the description of the study, it appears that no actual human interactions were observed. So, its all theoretical. How much you want to bet this is another unreplicatable social science study?; 10/25/15, 9:11 PM
ken in tx said...: If your daddy's rich, and your Momma's good looking, you don't have to be smart. The living is easy. That's the way it ought to be.
BTW, I picked a woman I thought was smarter than me. Worked good so far.; 10/25/15, 9:41 PM
Joe said...: "In a study of 105 men"

In other words, more social "science" bullshit.

Among other things, how the hell did they control for physical attractiveness? Moreover, being told someone is intelligent is far different that someone actually being intelligent. Actual intelligence is incredibly attractive.; 10/25/15, 9:44 PM
ken in tx said...: If you pick a woman who thinks she's smarter than you, then you are in trouble.; 10/25/15, 9:47 PM
The Godfather said...: OK, I agree with everyone who's said this was a stupid, meaningless study. I'd really like to know if there was federal funding involved, and if so, where's the late, great Sen. William Proxmire when we need him?

Also, this post OF COURSE has brought out much of what we have come to love from Laslo, but way up thread he asked the killer question: "Basically: were the men introduced to an outgoing, interested person, or to an abstraction?"

Further, (and I'm almost done) the whole discussion assumes there's a single identifiable quality called "intelligence" that can be measured on a unitary scale, and there isn't. We all know this from real life. There are people who are really REALLY intelligent about math but can't make head nor tail of a Shakespearean sonnet. And people who can understand Emmanuel Kant's philosophy who get their stock tips from their brother-in-law who's doing community service. In my experience (YMMV), smart women are sometimes smart in different ways than smart men. If you buy the concept of comparative advantage, then that's what men and women should be looking for.; 10/25/15, 9:51 PM
Peter said...: I don't see any evidence that either sex is particularly impressed with a high IQ score (or with anything that signals such a score).

People are impressed by those with demonstrated ability to actually accomplish things, especially if these things are difficult to accomplish. And perhaps IQ correlates with this, but, it's the accomplishments that generate the interest and not the IQ score.; 10/26/15, 10:00 AM
Jaq said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 10/26/15, 10:36 AM
Jaq said...: BTW, anybody who goes into a poker game who assumes, believes, or pretends he is the smartest person in the room is likely to leave with a far lighter wallet.; 10/26/15, 10:45 AM
Jaq said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 10/26/15, 10:47 AM
Jaq said...: I've known some smart people who've used the rhetorical device of saying "You're smarter than I am." What are they up to?

Even Lennon and McCartney let Ringo write the occasional song.; 10/26/15, 10:55 AM
OGWiseman said...: What a terrible study design. Being told that someone is smarter than you, and then meeting them and observing that they are not as smart as advertised, is guaranteed to put a person in a foul mood. "This idiot is smarter than me?! BS!"; 10/26/15, 1:33 PM
Jaq said...: This is impossible to study in this way. Perhaps if you had a very large population of women and presented them without announcing they were smarter than you or not, and in a separate study, had different men observe these same women through a one way glass, doing something like knitting, and rate their attractiveness. Believe me, men will have no problem with this task.

Then compare the results of the interactions controlling for attractiveness as rated by a separate group of men, and had genuinely smart and average women interact with men, maybe watch a movie and talk about it, or something.

Then, if after all that you told me that the men were avoiding the smart women in disproportionate numbers compared to what you would expect, I would probably say that it was because the "smart" women were probably analyzing the movie using "gender theory."; 10/26/15, 3:29 PM