September 18, 2015

Susan Brownmiller, author of the feminist classic "Against Our Will," has some words for today's anti-rape activists.

From an interview in New York Magazine:
I like to see activism wherever it rears its head, but this is a very limited movement that doesn't accept reality. Culture may tell you, "You can drink as much as men," but you can't. People think they can have it all ways. The slut marches bothered me, too, when they said you can wear whatever you want. Well sure, but you look like a hooker. They say, "That doesn't matter," but it matters to the man who wants to rape. It's unrealistic. I don't know what happened to the understanding people had in the 1970s....

Well, I take a hard line with victims of domestic violence, too. I feel it is my place as a feminist to say, "Get out, get out, get out of this relationship." They feel that we should respect their opinions and beliefs because they are survivors. If they can’t get out because they don’t want to reduce their living circumstances, or they don’t want to go, or they are passive people, then I am supposed to respect that. But I don’t. My feeling is "Get out."

And my feeling about young women trapped in sex situations that they don’t want is: "Didn’t you see the warning signs? Who do you expect to do your fighting for you?" It is a little late, after you are both undressed, to say "I don’t want this."

40 comments:

MayBee said...

Yes.

Achilles said...

This does not advance the progressive cause.

lgv said...

The comments by Brownmiller are unacceptable. This is new world order. She should be put in jail just for making other women who speak truth to power feel uncomfortable.

The Drill SGT said...

A number of order women who consider themselves feminists have waded in recently with advice that resembles what their mothers told them long years ago, only to be shouted down.

I have no sympathy for those who refuse to read history and are thus doomed to repeat it.

Women are the weaker sex. You can't drink a man under the table. going anywhere with a strange man alone has huge risks.

Trusting a man whom you don't know to be a gentleman to be one when he has been drinking is idiotic.

Go out with a wingwoman
don't drink too much
keep your knees together
etc
etc

life isn't fair. Get over it

Skeptical Voter said...

Yup, once the clothes are off and you're in the guy's bed----

I think wise old Dr. Ruth said that when you get naked and get into bed, you're sorta responsible for what happens.

But in London a 72 year old Chelsea pensioner (retired soldier living in the Chelsea barracks) got thrown out and lost his pension when a 29 year old woman he'd met in a bar came back to his room, drunk, stripped and climbed into his bed.
He was charged with "rubbing up against her", {which is about all you can expect a 72 year old not using Viagra to do) and that was "sexual assault". So he's out--and she's had time to get over her hangover. But she'll get drunk again and climb into some other guy's bed and ruin his life. Lather, rinse, repeat.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Didn't she learn from what just happened to Matt Damon?

Sebastian said...

"It is a little late, after you are both undressed, to say "I don’t want this.""

Sorry, Susan. It's a little late to complain about what you and your sisters wrought.

It's never too late to trump up accusations to rescue the self-esteem of women and ruin evil men. It's never too late to use any means necessary to bring down white/male/hetero/Christian "privilege."

Bill said...

Brownmiller unbellyfeels Ingsoc.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

It's a cliché to say that the older male elephants control the younger male elephants.

Still, I'd sort of like to know the zoological equivalent for women.

Maybe there's such a thing as a boss-lady chicken.

I'll ask Professor Internet.

Drew W said...

Susan Brownmiller should go on a campus speaking tour with Camille Paglia. Chrissy Hynde could be the opening act.

Sigivald said...

The slut marches bothered me, too, when they said you can wear whatever you want. Well sure, but you look like a hooker. They say, "That doesn't matter," but it matters to the man who wants to rape.

Indeed. Well, the last line.

It's not victim-blaming to point out that predators select targets somehow, be it rapists who might [might!] pick a woman dressed scantily as simply being more appealing, or a robber going after someone who looks like they might have a wad of cash on them or expensive jewelry.

I watch my surroundings and don't show off wealth in sketchy places, to minimize that risk; I have the mad idea that maybe everyone should try that to minimize risks to their person, too.

I have just as much a "right" to flaunt cash and not get mugged as a woman does to dress any way she wants and have not so much as a finger laid on her or a rude word spoken to her - which is to say, an absolute one - but that right won't stop a robbery or a rape.

Predators don't care about anyone's rights or the law or decent behavior.

(This is equally why "just teach men not to rape!" is a non-answer to the problem.

Oh, it can work to reduce the sort of rape that occurs when some poorly-socialized or savage person never did get told that "yes, she can say no after having a drink with you or even going home with you, and you have to respect that". And in that limited context it's quite useful, though still insulting to the vast majority of men who ... already know not to rape people.

But it can't work with the - less common, but quite real, and possibly even scarier - rapist who simply uses raw force against a target of opportunity.

They already know they're doing something wrong; they just don't care, exactly like a robber doesn't care.)

Bayoneteer said...

Feminist bromides and ideology have been reified. And when real circumstances dont fit the ideology? Ideologues change the subject and discover that they are late for a meeting and dash. When dogma is cleary at odds with reality stop talking about it.

kimsch said...

She said: "Didn’t you see the warning signs? Who do you expect to do your fighting for you?"

Young women are being taught that someone else will do their fighting for them. All they have to do is make an accusation. Then they can carry their victim-hood mattress all over campus.

They're taught that there's value in victim-hood. There's attention, and sympathy, and they can avoid anything that might make them slightly uncomfortable by insisting on "trigger warnings."

Achilles said...

The only thing that will satisfy progressives are victims. Stupid, mewling, drooling idiots who can't think or fend for themselves.

When all women are victims that means all men are rapists. Division. Angst. Distrust.

This is the progressive goal.

n.n said...

A significant difference between a child and adult is that the latter's accumulation of knowledge and experience affords them greater insight into and expectation of risk management. That is development of a method and process of controlling and reducing personal and environmental risk. While involuntary or abusive exploitation is not limited to women, the circumstances of nature leave women especially prone to sexual exploitation. That said, proper risk management begins with responsible, self-moderating behavior, not indulgence in one extreme fantasy or another.

walter said...

If the guy cracks a light bulb joke and you don't flee, it's on you.

n.n said...
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n.n said...
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n.n said...

The Drill SGT:

advice that resembles what their mothers told them long years ago

Conservation is a critical physical, social, and mental concept.

David said...

Holy fuck. (Perhaps literally.) That is some mighty backlash.

mikee said...

This is what comes of deciding things based upon "feeling" which is a verb or noun in the quote four times, along with "belief."

I would argue that what one "thinks" about such issues, based on facts, logic and understanding, and how one goes about "thinking" about them, might be more productive of defensible conclusions.

Many a feminist argument I have stopped cold by pointing out that "feelings" are essentially glandular excretions, whereas "thoughts" are ideas. My feelings are important when I stub my toe. When I am discussing issues like an adult, my feelings are secondary to my thoughts.

David said...

The other way to handle it is, once all the clothes are off, say "oh fuck it, who cares"and go ahead with it. Then, a few moments or hours or days later, regret the hell out of what you did, if that makes you feel less like a slut. Then learn from it and move on. That's what guys do. (Guys can regret these encounters too.) Want to be equal to the guys in this area? That's one way to do it.

Yes, you are the victim. And you should blame the victim. Because most of us, in most areas of life, especially sex, victimize ourselves.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

mikee said...

Many a feminist argument I have stopped cold by pointing out that "feelings" are essentially glandular excretions, whereas "thoughts" are ideas. My feelings are important when I stub my toe. When I am discussing issues like an adult, my feelings are secondary to my thoughts.

Thanks for mansplaining that to us, mikee.

JackOfClubs said...

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

Danno said...

Common sense, a truly rare trait in these times.

Michael K said...

" It is a little late, after you are both undressed, to say "I don’t want this."

Don't say that to the Obama DOE.

Microaggression.

tim in vermont said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
paminwi said...

God women these days are truly insufferable.
Thank goodness I don't come in contact with many of them.
I 'd want to knock zone sense into them

Christopher B said...

Well sure, but you look like a hooker. They say, "That doesn't matter," but it matters to the man who wants to rape.

There seems to be a fundamental disconnect among feminists, and possible within feminist viewpoints, between viewing rape as a crime of violence and viewing it as a crime of sex. The definition seems to change both with the speaker and very often with the situation being described.

rcocean said...

When susan braunmuller is the sane one, you know you've gone too far.

Brando said...

This seems to be a part of the pushback from the saner wing of the Left that does not want to go down the SJW wormhole.

The standard she's criticizing is hardly a "liberating" one, after all--it supposes women can do nothing for themselves and should never have responsibility, rather the culture of men is all that matters. Surely any genuine feminist (by the old standard of female empowerment) would chafe at this.

glenn said...

Hey guys. What my dad said when we had "that talk" in about 1953.

"Shoot a Beaver you gotta be ready to eat it"

If you need an explanation I don't really care what happens to you. Man up and take it.

Known Unknown said...

"Many a feminist argument I have stopped cold by pointing out that "feelings" are essentially glandular excretions, whereas "thoughts" are ideas. My feelings are important when I stub my toe. When I am discussing issues like an adult, my feelings are secondary to my thoughts."

Was Thatcher a feminist?

Big Mike said...

I imagine that Brownmiller is wondering how a movement to empower women turned into a movement where everything is up to men and women themselves bear zero point zero zero responsibility for anything.

The problem with dressing like a hooker who was thrown out of the cheapest brothel in town for dressing too sleazy is that it can make a girl a target for worse than rape -- Robert Hansen, the Alaska serial killer, and Gary Leon Ridgway, the "Green River Killer" preferentially targeted streetwalkers because they wouldn't necessarily be missed right away. The women performing their slut walks might want to think about that.

tim in vermont said...

To the raped, rape is an act of violence, to the rapist, it is a sexual act.

Moneyrunner said...

Is it necessary to point out that women are bat shit crazy? Brownmiller's comments remind me of the Obama excuse du jour: he's not responsible for the debacle in Syria (5?7?9? "fighters" trained for $500 million) because he reluctantly approved. It was all his critics fault. Brownmiller and all the "feminists" reluctantly supported the bat shit crazy bitches because ... sisterhood. Empowerment! You go girl!

Big Mike said...

@tim, I have read studies that say rape is an act of violence as far as the perpetrator is concerned, too.

mikee said...

Dear Ignorance is Bliss, the statements contained in my comment can be used by persons of any gender to illuminate the illogic of the emotional arguments presented by feminists.

You are welcome for my mansplaining, but it would have been 'splained just as well had the 'splaining come from a woman, a tran-gendered person, or a wombat high on eucalyptus leaves.

It is not the source that validates or invalidates an idea. I state that rational argument using facts or testable hypotheses to determine the truth or falsehood of an idea is better than using feelings to test ideas.

If you feel different, enjoy it, but you are wrong.

Anonymous said...

So, just to be clear here: people are claiming that giving someone a "rape drug" so that he can have sex with her without having to use force, is "an act of violence"?

Leftist ideology truly does make you stupid, doesn't it.

Krumhorn said...

It is a little late, after you are both undressed, to say "I don’t want this."

I agree with her main point, but not this statement. If she intends the literal meaning that it's temporally late in the encounter to put up resistance, then Homer would say "duh!". But if she's saying that it's past the point that the girl can change her mind, I doubt that any of us would agree. Twice in my life, I've been on the approach path to the holiest of holies with the gear extended when the girl decided it was a good idea to wave off the pass.

In each case, two good things happened: I complied, executed the touch-and-go, and then, after extensive circling and dinner service, she later cleared the field for another landing and we got parked in the hanger.

To press the ridiculous metaphor even further, that particular field is always controlled space. Brownmiller cannot be suggesting that at some point, it's VFR.

- Krumhorn