What does this mean for religious traditionalists?
[T]he new policy allows church-sponsored units to choose local unit leaders who share their precepts, even if that means restricting such positions to heterosexual men. Despite this compromise, the Mormon Church said it might leave the organization anyway....
“The church has always welcomed all boys to its scouting units regardless of sexual orientation,” the statement by the Mormon Church headquarters said. “However, the admission of openly gay leaders is inconsistent with the doctrines of the church and what have traditionally been the values of the Boy Scouts of America.”
The statement also suggested another reason the Mormons are considering withdrawing from the Boy Scouts: the possible creation of its own boys’ organization to serve its worldwide membership. “As a global organization with members in 170 countries, the Church has long been evaluating the limitations that fully one-half of its youth face where Scouting is not available,” the statement said.
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149 comments:
The Catholic Church led the way on this way back in the 60s, allowing openly gay men into seminaries.
Check out the results. The abuse was all of the homosexual variety.
Expect more of same.
But, of course "equality" demands fucking over the kids, doesn't it? Ideological victories demand ignoring reality.
Don't talk about the armies of chickens and chicken hawks at the PATH and subway stations in the West Village. That would be bigotry, right prof?
It means the end of the Boy Scouts. This culture will no longer permit traditional values in public.
In an ideal world this would not be an issue.
In the real world, it will be.
I'm not saying that gay men are more likely than straight men to try to have sex with teenagers. There is no way that I would send my daughter to a camp chaperoned by the straight male scout leaders that I knew from my time in scouts.
Big Anus wins again.
It always seemed that he smart move was for the current organization to dissolve and reform under the umbrella of a church organization (call it the Church of Boy Scouting.) One precept of that Church would be no homosexual leaders. Bingo, game over. With this move, the scouts will decline, as they did in Canada after such a change, by about 50%. And the number of suits arising out of sexual abuse claims will skyrocket.
Althouse's dream is that gay men will be transformed into Ozzie and Harriet.
This is so fucking laughably stupid, but then, the prof is looking at this shit from the standpoint of ideology, fear over her son's behavior and her own romantic attraction to gay men.
Delusional, but the delusional is winning on all fronts, isn't it?
No reasonable person believes that every gay man who wants to go on a camping trip in the woods with a bunch of adolescent boys is motivated chiefly by his desire for sex.
But the Scoutmaster of my old boy scout troop was a full-on pervert who was eventually driven off by the parents who joined forces.
Reasonable minds can differ over the risks involved.
What bothers me is the contingent who claim they disapprove of predatory scout leaders while feeling good about themselves for their preening moral vanity.
My objection is largely aesthetic.
My younger son was a fie explorer scout and is a fireman. I cannot see his son being interested in the gay Boy Scouts.
Fire explorer...
The founder of the Boy Scouts, Lord Robert Stephenson Smyth Baden-Powell, was probably a closeted gay man. And so much for social conservatives' reverence for history and tradition.
(At a wonderful but now defunct gay bath house in Bangkok, I remember a large portrait of a handsome King Rama VI in all his regalia at the entrance. He founded the Boy Scouts in Thaland. And Like Lord Baden-Powell, he was a closeted gay man. Do two anecdotes make a pattern?)
(Thaland = Thailand. I'm somewhat spastic at the keyboard before the caffeine kicks in.)
"The Catholic Church led the way on this way back in the 60s, allowing openly gay men into seminaries. Check out the results. The abuse was all of the homosexual variety."
As near as I can tell, about half the sexual abuse cases involving Catholic priests involved very young children, and the other half involved younger teens. The former were divided about equally between boys and girls, while the latter were almost all boys.
Bad idea jeans.
Progs rule. Though shalt not deviate from secular orthodoxy. Screw the Christians and Mormons.
No reasonable person believes that every gay man who wants to go on a camping trip in the woods with a bunch of adolescent boys is motivated chiefly by his desire for sex.
The AIDS epidemic proved conclusively that the "stereotype" of gay male behavior is completely accurate and true.
In the current atmosphere of compulsory lying for the sake of Diversity, we are, of course, required to lie our asses off in public.
Tens of millions dead from AIDS, and a massive public health bill to facilitate the gay boys' continued partying, and we're still required to lie our asses off in public in order to keep a job.
When I joined the scouts, one of the junior leaders took me aside and told me that I should slap the Scoutmaster if he tries anything and that would be enough to get him to stop. But I never had a problem, maybe because the Scoutmaster knew my father was paying attention. I knew several scouts whose parents didn't give a shit about them who had a different sort of scouting experience.
@Peter, according to the report on the sex abuse crisis comissioned by the usccb in 2004, conducted by the john jay institute of criminal justice, fully 80% of the sex abuse cases involved priests with adolescent boys and young men. in other words, run of the mill homosexual predation. Also thrown into the stats were "consensual" cases involving seminarians.
Uh-oh. The floor of this room is getting spattered with mouth foam. Time to break out the Piso Mojado cones.
Eric the Fruit Bat said...
No reasonable person believes that every gay man who wants to go on a camping trip in the woods with a bunch of adolescent boys is motivated chiefly by his desire for sex.
Actually, anyone who is not a parent and wants to spend prolonged time with adolescent and pre-adolescent children should be an object of considerable suspicion. This applies just as much to the coach of the girls swim team as it does to the scoutmaster. Having coached basketball and helped coach baseball teams, only parents who are motivated by the delusional belief that these activities help them bond with their children could possibly find this an acceptable way to spend their precious free time. Anyone else who shows a keen interest in these activities should be viewed with deep suspicion.
Or people can do with the Boy Scouts what they have been doing with the increasingly pro-gay mainline Protestant denominations; quietly leave. Leaving behind ever-shrinking memberships.
How are you going to improve the culture unless it's against the will of the majority, after all.
"At a wonderful but now defunct gay bath house in Bangkok, I remember"
Yes, your observations will be taken under advisement on this topic.
The vast majority of priest sexual abuse cases involved teenaged boys. Once the moral barriers were down, of course, seminaries got some real child molester candidates, as well. The other side of that sad history is that some men with real vocations were turned away as they were not sufficiently supportive of the social justice warriors who got control of admissions to seminaries.
There is a pretty good book on the subject titled Goodbye Good Men.
Time to make the Boy Scouts the Boys and Girls scouts. No reason to segregate the sexes, especially with transgendered children.
It will become like college, a place that sees a declining number of boys.
"Or people can do with the Boy Scouts what they have been doing with the increasingly pro-gay mainline Protestant denominations; quietly leave. Leaving behind ever-shrinking memberships."
Which accomplishes the secondary Prog purpose, the destruction of civil society. Nothing shall come between individual and state.
Another victim of factionalism.
ARM,
People who are good at coaching get paid for it. I used to volunteer coach inner city baseball because I love the game and these boys didn't have father's around for the most part so there were almost no one able and willing to coach. Maybe I should have been suspicious of myself.
I was assisting at Cheerleader Camp -- it is my way of helping the community, I like to do what I can -- when, after the practices, one of the Cheerleaders came to me in tears.
"What's the matter, Ashlyn?" I asked. "Is it a thigh cramp?"
"No, sir. It's... it's about one of the coaches."
"What happened?"
"I can't..."
"Why don't you show me? Would that be easier?"
With that, Ashlyn in her cheerleader outfit tentatively took my hand and placed it on her breast.
"Coach did this to me..."
""Were you having chest pains?"
"No, sir. Then Coach did this..." she said, pulling my hand down to fondle her firm ass.
"This is certainly not acceptable behavior."
"Then Coach did this..." Ashlyn said, putting my hand under her skirt and into her panties.
"Did Coach slip fingers into your vagina, Ashyln?" I asked, slipping my fingers into her vagina.
"Just like that, sir: just like that."
"And then did Coach do this..." I asked, taking her hand and putting it on my cock through my pants.
"No, sir!"
"Really?" I asked, somewhat surprised.
"Sir, Coach Angela doesn't have a penis."
I am Laslo.
Former Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates, current president of the Boy Scouts of America, had said last May that the ban on gay scout leaders "cannot be sustained."
I do believe Mr. Gates is being what the Bright Young Things these days are calling a "cuckservative".
Btw, our greatest presidents were not Eagle Scouts. Can someone let Walker know that he can drop this from his stump speech? To me, as an Eagle Scout, it's cringe worthy to think that any middle aged adult would flaunt this status as a credential for any job, never mind the presidency.
Maybe non-Scouts can be fooled into thinking that the Eagle thing is difficult. I dunno.
Likewise, I don't see why buying a shirt for a couple bucks means that you should be the president. By that logic, Walker should step aside to someone who collects rainwater to flush their toilet. If Walker gets the nomination, is he going to be riding the Eagle and cheap shirt bone fides sixteen months from now? Sheesh.
All these people without kids the relevant age, who stopped yelling for the kids to get off their lawns now are bemoaning the end of the scouts.
Laughable. They have been screaming their anti gay agenda for so long now that they have been proven wrong and they really don't like it.
So - basically older boys are sexually attracted to the other boys in the camps.
That sounds promising.
Would it be acceptable for straight teen boys to go camping with the girl scouts?
If not, why not?
Incidentally, The Gutenberg Project has posted the entire unabridged edition of The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon (1737-1794). It's a rich treasure trove of phrases you can cut and paste.
Being a Boy Scout is queer by definition.
mccullough said...
I used to volunteer coach inner city baseball because I love the game and these boys didn't have father's around for the most part so there were almost no one able and willing to coach. Maybe I should have been suspicious of myself.
It is an unfortunate fact that these kinds of positions attract the wrong people, in addition to the right people, and considerable suspicion on the part of parents is warranted, whether the coach is heterosexual or homosexual in orientation. There have been endless scandals with the coaches of girls swim teams and even some parent coaches have turned out to be pedophiles. We live in a sick, sick world.
Mark said...
They have been screaming their anti gay agenda for so long now that they have been proven wrong and they really don't like it.
Out of curiosity, and just for clarity, who has been proven wrong about what?
Oh good Lord. Gay Scouts is one thing; it isn't fair to exclude gay boys from Scouting or treat them any differently.
But gay adults in Scouting very different and properly so. Men coach high school women's teams, but they don't go off unsupervised with them and for very good reason. We can be inclusive without completely losing our minds, can't we?
I'm afraid we might not be able to.
A very good friend of mine coached high school women's teams. He was an upright family man of whom no word of suspicion was ever breathed. And he was never with those girls without being chaperoned because he is not an idiot who puts political correctness above common sense. And adult gays in Scouting will need to do the same, for the same reason, without claiming its based on hate.
The case of the LDS (Mormon) Church and Boy Scouts is very interesting. They have been closely associated for nearly a century, and Boy Scouts has been heavily integrated into the young men's program (ages 12-18). But a lot of Mormons aren't all that enamored of the Boy Scouts, particularly since annual BSA fund drives are heavily promoted in local (US/Canada) congregations. At the same time, LDS Church demographics have shifted over the past 30 years, so that now the majority of LDS members live outside of the US and Canada (Latin America, Africa, Philippines, etc.), and the LDS Church has moved towards greater parallelism between its young men's and young women's programs.
My best guess is that the LDS Church will end its relationship with BSA and implement a new program that applies to both young men and young women and which can be readily implemented and followed in most countries where the LDS Church has congregations.
A couple comments:
1) The HRC has declared that the fight is not over until the Boy Scouts require that all their chartered units operate without discrimination -- that is, that either Catholic and Mormon churches permit gay and lesbian scoutmasters, or that the BSA refuse to re-charter them. (see http://www.patheos.com/blogs/janetheactuary/2015/07/is-the-boy-scout-fight-over.html)
2) The Scouts have implemented a fairly rigorous set of policies, called "two-deep" leadership. All outings must have two leaders, and no boy may be alone with a single leader. At camp, there are separate bathrooms and sleeping quarters for boys and adults (with the "adult" cutoff including boys 18 or older who continue to participate). Do all troops follow the rules? Don't know.
I'm sure openly gay Scout leaders pose less of a risk than closeted gay leaders and more of a risk than straight leaders. I'd be extremely suspicious of a gay person who is extremely eager to coach a Boy Scout troop.......I myself am a paragon of virtue and self restraint, but, when younger, I would not trust myself to coach the girl's gymnastic team. Sexual attraction is an extremely potent force.
The very worst thing about it is, that children are by far in the most danger not from their priests or their coaches or their teachers or their scoutmasters. They are by far most likely to be molested by their parents, siblings, or someone else who lives with them.
Yes, by all means, adults who do things with children need to be chaperoning each other, for their own protection against false accusation if nothing else. But ARM's "There have been endless scandals with the coaches of girls swim teams and even some parent coaches have turned out to be pedophiles. We live in a sick, sick world" makes me despair. If most people think like he does, our society is deeply irrational and not fit to govern itself.
The term, "cannot be sustained" is telling. He never indicates that it is the right thing to do, on the contrary, it is being done due to pressure which cannot be resisted.
The on-going reduction of society into man and state, must of necessity destroy all of the "little platoons" which make up civil society.
2) The Scouts have implemented a fairly rigorous set of policies, called "two-deep" leadership. All outings must have two leaders, and no boy may be alone with a single leader. At camp, there are separate bathrooms and sleeping quarters for boys and adults (with the "adult" cutoff including boys 18 or older who continue to participate). Do all troops follow the rules? Don't know.
My spouse is a Scout leader and always practices two deep. But even then, are all you people screaming "bigots" totes ok with a two men heading out to the woods with a girl scout troop? Why or why not? I don't think it's any different than a gay man heading off to the woods with a boy scout troop. Some of these kids are younger 12-13, some of them are 16 or 17. If you'd be uncomfortable with a heterosexual man going off with your 16 year old daughter than I think the same applies here.
In this case Areasonableman is reasonable.
The only exception I know is mandated paramilitary training, where the adult leaders are appointed military personnel. This is the case with JROTC and similar things in other countries.
Also, I think the LDS Church might have been ok with the change if they hadn't been given the finger by the National Organization. The National Organization scheduled their meetings and votes knowing that in July the Church couldn't respond. The Church asked for a delay and the Boy Scouts ignored them. If you can't even bother to let the largest player have a say, then the National Boy Scouts Organization truly are cowards.
If the LDS Church leaves, there will be a bare bones organization. The Boy Scouts can't continue to enjoy the financial prosperity and keep the number of camps they have full (with paying Scouts) without their numbers.
If "cannot be sustained" means that big funders don't want to fund, it opens the question of whether what is being funded should be. We were a scout family for many years and national organizations were largely irrelevant, it was all about the kids and parent volunteers. Without those there was nothing.
Without funders (or big funders anyway) it can continue with little trouble.
Re: funding, is this ultimately about trying to get back United Way and corporate donations?
Now the Boy Scouts will enter a period of steep decline in membership much like the mainline Protestant churches that have gay clergy. It will take a decade or two but their march to irrelevance has begun. A slow imperceptible meltdown.
Gabriel said...
If most people think like he does, our society is deeply irrational and not fit to govern itself.
I think you are being naive, sadly.
Gabriel said...
The very worst thing about it is, that children are by far in the most danger not from their priests or their coaches or their teachers or their scoutmasters. They are by far most likely to be molested by their parents, siblings, or someone else who lives with them.
For step parents/brothers this mayl be true but I doubt this is true for natural parents or siblings. I must admit I did not look up the stats. I am not sure how you would even measure this given the vastly greater opportunities family members have for inappropriate behavior.
Funding Planned Parenthood (abortions and a racist past) - good
Funding Boy Scouts of America (builds character and leadership skills in young men) - bad
This change made me very angry at first, but I have now attained a zen-like calm.
1. The Boy Scouts exist for the benefit of the boys and their parents.
2. Parents can prevent an eleven year old boy from joining BSA.
3. If no harm comes from the change, BSA will flourish and yet again I will be proven fallible.
4. If the change is harmful, the parents are not forced to enroll their sons.
5. When the lawsuits begin, BSA has some terrific real estate they can sell to pay the lawyers and the boy-victims. I predict casinos on Treasure Island and a ski resort at Resica Falls.
6. Alternate organizations will develop to fill the need originally filled by BSA.
7. BSA will become the latest demonstration of Conquest's Second Law.
I think it's clear that all this is in order to retain corporate donations. This money mainly maintains the permanent staff, the bureaucracy. Like all such organizations, eventually the interests of the staff trumps the purpose of the organization. Like a commercial firm with a monopoly, the customer is eventually taken for granted.
There are already a couple of Catholic groups that were designed to be 'Catholic Scouts', distinguished from the mainstream Catholic parish-chartered BSA organisations, which in many cases are about as Catholic in inspiration, ethos etc etc as the local McDonalds. Given the state of the Church in the US, I doubt there will be any massive withdrawal from the BSA.
The lifeline for this would be support in the public schools. In some cities Boy Scout troops are effectively banned from organizing in public schools for this reason. This could remove these restrictions. Still, there has been no sign of any enthusiasm for any similar alternative in these districts in all these years. It is not in the liberal agenda to have a male-oriented organization of any sort at all.
We had two groups of Evangelical Scouts march in the local 4th of July Parade. It took me a bit to catch on that they were not, in fact, BSA Scouts. The flags, sashes and uniforms are much like I remember from my and my sons' youth.
It isn't the Catholics that will make the difference in BSA numbers. The Evangelical Churches have the people and the infrastructure to build a parallel organization. They have been doing it for years as they have been forced to the fringes. They also don't care a bit what mainline organizations say about them and their intolerance.
Can there be cross-dressing Boy/Girl Scouts?
For an idea of what the Boy Scouts should be, I highly recommend "Follow Me Boys", with Fred MacMurray. It came out when I was a scout. For a lot of city Scouts this looked like the " real scouting". And we did try to meet the ideal.
It also pointed out that the whole business required next to nothing in resources, save the devotion of time and talent.
Birches said...
My spouse is a Scout leader and always practices two deep.
I hear Laslo generally practices three deep. Now that I think about it, he might be referring to something else...
R.I.P. Boy Scouts. Only an idiot would let his son join.
Boy scouts and girl scouts could not merge because gays and lesbians don't play well together.
"I think it's clear that all this is in order to retain corporate donations."
I agree. It was kind of pitiful to see "The March of Dimes" scramble to find another cause after polio was cured.
"The lifeline for this would be support in the public schools"
Public schools and gay scout leaders, the epitome of parental neglect
We need suggestions for new merit badges. I propose "Gentrification"
Spin
"The statement also suggested another reason the Mormons are considering withdrawing from the Boy Scouts: the possible creation of its own boys’ organization to serve its worldwide membership"
This is in response to the change in the Boy Scouts allowing gay men to lead straight boys. The author spins it to sound like they have an ulterior motive for leaving the Scouts.
A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, reverent and FABULOUS.
We avoided the boyscouts right from the get go. We saw this writing on the wall and didn't want our boys to be half way to Eagle Scout or something and then we'd have to pull them out.
There are lot's of other clubs for boys but it doesn't really matter. This is how they always go. Whether it's the YMCA (Anyone know what that used to stand for?) or the Girl Scouts (Which was destroyed long before this) and now the Boy Scouts.
Out with the old, in with the new.
I was an assistant Cub Scout leader, and when my sons went into Boy Scouts, my husband and I were merit badge counselors. In both capacities, we had to have background checks before we were allowed to be alone with children.
There is a video that is shown every year to all Scouts, called "A Time to Tell", about sexual abuse, so the boys know what it is and that it is reportable. Even my Special Needs lad, who is now an Eagle Scout (and it IS hard to attain), had to see it. The troop kept a checklist and nagged you until your son had seen the video, EVERY YEAR. This video will be the next thing to be taken away from the Scouts, because it is, like, judgemental.
Scouting wasn't about sex, and shouldn't be. But now instead of learning how to respond in a crisis or save a life, the boys will be thinking about peckers all the time. This sucks. On roller skates.
When you hang around Scouts, you are around young boys who are being trained to be good men. They are becoming capable, learning how to think in a crisis, and when you compare them to the mall rats with their pants hanging down halfway off their asses, you would really rather hang with a bunch of Scouts and put up with the "talking armpit".
When my son was doing part of his Cooking merit badge which involved cooking for the troop, one of the boys fell off a climber and hurt his ankle. He was sitting on the ground, crying, when one of the older Scouts whipped off his neckerchief and fashioned an ankle brace with it, in about 5 seconds, then helped the younger kid to get further assistance. A mall rat would pull out his phone and video the kid crying, and put it up on Youtube.
Of the 24 men to travel to the moon on the Apollo 9 through Apollo 17 missions , 21 were Scouts, including 10 of the 12 men who physically walked on the moon's surface, and all three members of the crew of Apollo 13. Three travelled to the Moon twice.
This precious resource is now being flushed. We will pay as a society for the lack of Boy Scouts.
Let me plug the Seventh Day Adventist Church here.
They have an excellent program that starts at about age 5 (Castores in Spanish, don't know the English equivalent) then progresses through Conquistadores, Pathfinders, and for adults Medical Cadet Corps.
Similar in some ways to BSA but mixes boys and girls and continues through adulthood. The MCC does some EMT and disaster aid, medical missions and so on.
My kids and grandkids have always been very active and I give them a lot of credit for how well they have turned out.
the Medical Cadet Corps is a remnant of an organization to supply conscientious objector SDAs to the army as medics and stretcher bearers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Cadet_Corps
As far as I know, the Seventh Day Adventist church nor the cadet organization have no policy on homosexuality. I suppose there might be if I went and looked into it but in 40 years I don't recall hearing it discussed one way or the other.
John Henry
Just to be clear, the SDA organization has merit badges similar to BSA and GSA that kids and adults earn.
I think these are very valuable as it teaches or causes kids to learn all sorts of useful skills. It also builds self-esteem by giving them an opportunity to achieve something meaningful.
John Henry
What does this mean for religious traditionalists?
What does religion have to do with not wanting your kids molested?
MathMom
+1
When I think about the idea of openly gay scout leaders, I think about my oldest son, who is an Eagle Scout and is gay. He loved his years in scouting - 50 mile backpacking trips and hikes, two weeks at Philmont, numerous local camping trips and service projects, and summer camps. When he has his own family, he wants to be able to share his love of Scouting with his children. He shouldn't be denied that because he is gay. He'd make a great Scout leader.
Fen:
Well, the LDS Church does have additional reasons to consider leaving BSA: roughly 50% of its young men live in countries where Scouting has no presence, and so they have to implement other programs (or none at all). With most of the LDS Church's growth happening outside of the US and Canada, Scouting is becoming less relevant/helpful as part of the LDS Church's young men's program. Still, without this change, the LDS Church -- at least in Anglosphere countries -- would probably have continued its association with Scouting for quite a while.
There is one other interesting twist. In LDS-sponsored troops, the scout leaders do not volunteer themselves -- instead, they are chosen by the local bishop (for Mormons, the congregational leader), and he can choose to replace them at any time. (For a lot of LDS men, myself included, there is a constant low-level dread that we might be asked at some point to serve as the ward [congregational] scoutmaster, a calling I feel in no way qualified for.) So on the one hand, the odds of an LDS-sponsored troop having an (openly) gay scoutmaster are pretty much zero; on the other hand, that itself could end up inviting a lawsuit seeking to compel the LDS Church to be 'equal opportunity' in issuing such callings, which would mean having to allow individuals to volunteer for these calling rather than have them serve at the bishop's discretion.
Keep in mind that one of the most senior members of the LDS Church's quorum of apostles is Dallin H. Oaks, who graduated from Chicago Law School, clerked for SCOTUS Chief Justice Earl Warren, taught at the U of C Law School, was president of BYU when Title IX was enacted, and was a justice on the Utah Supreme Court when he was asked to serve as an apostle. (He was also considered as a potential SCOTUS nominee by both the Ford and Reagan administrations.) The top LDS Church leadership does not lack for high-caliber legal insight on controversial issues, and whatever course the LDS Church steers with regards to the BSA announcement will be chosen in the light of long-term legal implications.
" a calling I feel in no way qualified for"
As I learned in life, a big part of success is learning to overcome feelings that there are "callings I feel no way qualified for". You are "qualified" for anything, if you look at problems as problems to be solved, and not necessarily solved in a certain way.
I had this very feeling when we brought our daughter home from the hospital.
"He shouldn't be denied that because he is gay. He'd make a great Scout leader."
I would have made a great astronaut I think, yet I was denied, on many grounds.
That's life.
" that itself could end up inviting a lawsuit seeking to compel the LDS Church to be 'equal opportunity' in issuing such callings"
This would open a constitutional can of worms, implying that the state can intervene in churches selection of clergy. Seems to me that if it goes this direction, the courts could insist on the Catholics permitting women priests, and every other sort of regulation.
Reading some of the comments here I have to ask: do any of you who are so convinced that gay people are out to molest your little boys actually know any gay people?
Julie C
The BSA exists for the boys, not to provide fulfilment to adults. Conceding that your son is a fine young man does not change the fact that youth leaders of pubescent boys should not be drawn from a class of people sexually attracted to them, even if only a very small minority act on the urge.
Some boys will end up as collateral damage in the social justice wars.
@Julie C:do any of you who are so convinced that gay people are out to molest your little boys actually know any gay people?
Would you trust a straight man out overnight with Girl Scouts unsupervised?
Again, this isn't about being afraid of teh geys.
Is BSA making that organization liable for punitive damages on the basis of "They knew OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN" the increased risk of sexual abuse by changing that rule?
@Julie C: Would you like to have your Girl Scouts out unsupervised with heterosexual Boy Scouts?
I think you would not.
Again, this isn't about being afraid of teh geys.
Gabriel -
The scouts have rules about being alone with boys. By the way, those rules apply to ALL adults, not just men, but women leaders too.
" actually know any gay people? "
Yes, including relatives. Most boys figure out who is what, and they are around throughout life.
I come from a communal culture so we probably had way more social connections than typical Americans and a much larger circle of aquaintance.
@Julie C:By the way, those rules apply to ALL adults, not just men, but women leaders too.
And so would these rules for gay adult Scout leaders apply to all adults--unless people like you succeed in impugning the motives for these rules as homophobic.
How about Mr. Gates volunteers to commit suicide the first time an underage boy is molested by a gay scoutmaster and to contribute his retirement nest egg (leaving his wife Becky destitute) to the financial settlement the boy and his parents? Seems fair to me.
Julie C
The best part of moving up from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts was the elimination of women leaders. Been a long time, is this still true?
Gabriel - People like me? Whatever that means.
I don't have a problem with those rules. I think adults of either gender should be very careful about being alone with unrelated children of either sex given the hysteria out there.
In a town near me, a middle school teacher and the coach of a girls volleyball team (a traveling team, not a school sponsored one) was convicted of 'grooming' several middle school girls and molesting them. He was married and had two daughters. I knew a mother whose daughter played on his volleyball team and she said in hindsight, there was something a bit off about how affectionate he was with the girls. It pays to listen to your gut, and it pays to educate your children about inappropriate contact. But singling out a group of people and banning them from an activity is just wrong.
And there is a matter of an example. Ideally a scout leader should be an example to his boys.
That means that such a man should have the qualities to be an example, to suit the proper aspirations of his community.
A man should be a man, a normal person with normal personality, normal desires, and no major vices. An otherwise accomplished man should be disqualified for such things as alcoholism, bad temper, cruelty, incapacitating obesity, notoriety or scandal.
Since being a father is a proper and necessary desire for the community, I think a scoutmaster should also be a father, properly married according to the standards of his community.
@Julie C:But singling out a group of people and banning them from an activity is just wrong.
That's why you always see boys on the girls' teams and grown men on the middle school teams.
No, on second thought, you don't. Everyone agrees that not everyone gets included in all activities and that there isn't anything necessarily invidious about it.
People like me? Whatever that means.
People who immediately leap to "homophobia" and accuse others of it on no evidence.
Reading some of the comments here I have to ask: do any of you who are so convinced that gay people are out to molest your little boys actually know any gay people?
Lived in San Francisco and the Village and Chelsea in NYC for 40 years.
Watched the AIDS epidemic from a front row seat. Whole arts companies with which I was associated were eliminated by the AIDS epidemic.
Captain Billy - when my sons were in Cub Scouts it was all male leaders. Most of the moms found it very irritating because it seemed so disorganized (really, just not as organized as most of us would want, lol).
Boy Scouts is much more organized at least where I live. A few moms are leaders and wear the uniform at meetings. My son had to have a meeting at the home of the female leader to go over some merit badge stuff and I had to attend with him so that there were two adults present.
When qualifying potential scout leaders, I think that probably the most fair and economically efficient way to separate the perverts from the perfectly well-behaved homosexuals would be to sit each candidate in a chair, with electrodes connected to his genitals, and then to march some naked boy scouts past him to see if anything registers.
SCIENCE!!!!!!11!!!!!
Julie C
Please don't take this the wrong way but I absolutely hate the thought of female Boy Scout leaders. It kind of negates the underlying purpose of scouting.
I hate modern life.
Captain Billy - I wouldn't be a scout leader for the uniform alone. Very unattractive on a typical middle-aged female. I was never a scout leader. My husband did the volunteering on that front although his participation was pretty limited. I was busy volunteering for everything else school and sports related.
Capt. Billy, sometimes the only volunteers willing to step up are women. I've met a number of women Scout leaders, and have been impressed with most of them. Admittedly, I'm around a better than run of the mill set of women who've been Scouters for a number of years.
I have plenty of thoughts about this specific issue - BSA & gay leadership, but this whole thing is really about a bigger picture. The picture is this: there is a very small segment of society (~3% +/-) that have become tyrants in order to gain acceptance. We see this with the rulings leading up to the recent SCOTUS ruling. We see this with bakers and florists and who knows who else. We see this with the BSA and the bullying of corporations to withdraw funding.
A single person, 3% or even 51% can become tyrants and the end result is no different. Everyone loses - individually and personally.
""He shouldn't be denied that because he is gay. He'd make a great Scout leader."
No doubt he will be eligible to be a leader of the Gay Scouts, which is all that will be left. I suspect even leftist parents will be hesitant to send their adolescent boys on trips with gay scoutmasters although, of course, they will come up with other reasons. I feel sorry for the parents of gays of both sexes. As much as you rationalize it, they are not "normal" as we have defined it for thousands of years.
"Everyone loses - individually and personally."
Yes, and there will be a backlash and it will be horrendous. It may come with the Muslims who will be imported by the SJWs to punish those primitive Christians who won't shut up and bow down.
So the highly protected 35-year-old who sought out the emotionally vulnerable 18-year-old at Rutgers was just an outlier?
Why must homosexuality be decided by children the age of Cub Scouts?
A cousin was happily pursuing men until she was groomed during a menage a troix with a married couple who made her their sexual child. She was hovering around the age of consent when this relationship occurred. She is now the spouse of a very masculine-looking woman. She is a child of divorce and has been morbidly obese for quite some time.
The science is not settled.
Let's note that previously it was unlikely to determine if an individual was transsexual (e.g. homosexual), transgender, or otherwise dysfunctional. The status quo was therefore to primarily rely on outcome-based assessments and judgment. What has changed with normalization, is not necessarily the risk, but rather the risk profile. I refer to an expanded profile that includes overt influence and indoctrination of orientations and behaviors away from "normal". This is part of a national and even global experiment to retrain human orientations and behaviors. Whether this will engender positive or negative progress may or may not be predictable, but there is growing evidence of the likely outcomes from the diverse scope of progressive liberalism.
Julie: When he has his own family, he wants to be able to share his love of Scouting with his children. He shouldn't be denied that because he is gay. He'd make a great Scout leader.
Honestly, the ONLY think I'm concerned about is the experience and safety of the kids. I really don't give a rat's ass about your oldest son. That's not what the program is for.
And it's not a matter of your individual son, who I'm sure has the best of intentions. It's a matter of the proclivities of a thousand others who all say they love Scouting.
And maybe they do. But when faced with temptation, a number of them will succumb to it. That's just human nature, even among those who have good intentions going in.
I'm sure Jerry Sandusky genuinely loved football. But when the temptation to abuse kids was there, he took it. And then set himself up in situations where he had more opportunities.
Jason - interesting that you mention Sandusky. He was married to a woman, and did not identify as a pedophile publicly. There is a difference between being gay and being a pedophile.
Scouting has rules in place designed to protect everyone (adults and kids) from abuse or accusations of abuse. And most kids today do not view gay people with the fear and loathing some of the commenters here do. They'll be just fine with gay Scouts and gay Scout leaders. Get a grip.
When I was in high school, way back when, there was this gym teacher of whom I was quite fond. He taught intramural gymnastics, boys and girls, together, and he tried to get me to ask this one girl out on a date but, frankly, I was too afraid of being rejected so we'll never know how that might have turned out.
He was a very nice guy, middle-aged, unmarried, with just a touch of sadness about him. Perfect manners. A perfect gentleman.
Many years have passed since then. And today I find myself a few years older, now, than he was back when I was in high school. And now that I'm past his age, I find that it's pretty easy for me to imagine him going home after a hard day's work, home alone to his lonely home, all by himself, lubing up his pecker, and rubbing one out, all the while doing his level best to keep imagining in his head that he's having sex with a teenager who just so happens to be a female.
Sandusky....did not identify as a pedophile publicly.
Pretty sure this is true of approximately all pedophiles.
They'll be just fine with gay Scouts and gay Scout leaders.
That's the question isn't it? I and my wife are scout leaders, with two boys in scouts and another to start in 2 years. Will there be a scouting group for my youngest? Will it be vastly more expensive, reducing participation and therefore the boys' enjoyment? Will there be boy scout summer camps like my boys just returned from where many more physical activities are set up? Or will a schism of Mormons / Evangelicals effectively reduce scouts to your local group?
We can be sure those initiating the attacks on scouts will contribute exactly nothing toward scouting health no matter what its final makeup.
Rick - there are four troops in my small suburb. One of them is the LDS troop. If they went away it wouldn't be a problem for anyone as they don't participate with the other troops in activities in any meaningful way. I don't live in an area of the country with a lot of Evangelicals so I can't answer that. I would imagine that Scouting may take a hit in certain parts of the country with large Evangelical populations, or maybe there will be very few gay men asking to be Scout leaders in those areas so it wouldn't matter anyway.
And my point about Sandusky is that pedophiles, whether married or not, don't advertise. How that becomes "I'm concerned about openly gay scout leaders because Sandusky!!!!" is for Jason to explain.
My sons attend a summer Scout camp here in California that has been operating for 90 years. That camp has managed the ups and downs of Scout membership just fine. Where I live, you will find people who were opposed to Boy Scouts because of their previous stance on gays. Where you live, maybe that's the opposite. My little slice of the Bay Area regularly produces 20-30 Eagle Scouts a year and I don't see any signs of that slowing down.
Scout troops with openly homosexual leaders will lose their membership. The boys will go to a troop without gay leaders. Fathers, who are people who get things organized in scouting, the assistant scout masters, will also pick up and leave gay led troops. Scouting's national leadership can force troops to accept openly homosexual leaders but they will not be able to force boy scouts and their parents to remain in gay led troops.
Soon, we will see lawsuits against scouts and their parents for leaving gay led troops and going to troops without openly gay leadership.
Yes, there's going to be flood of openly gay Scout leaders demanding to be allowed to lead troops. A flood, I tell you! Run, run for the hills!
Good grief.
But you still haven't answered whether you're ok with your teenage daughter having a male scout leader @Julie C?
My sons attend a summer Scout camp here in California that has been operating for 90 years.
You might think that the Mormon Scout troops don't contribute meaningfully to the Scouting program in your area, but I bet the Scout Camp has a different opinion when the number of paying troops (and their affiliations) is all totaled up.
Oh, I forgot...two deep leadership: two male Scout leaders for your teenage daughter @ Julie C
Birches - I agree completely that the LDS troops are a good-sized chunk of overall Boy Scout participation nationally. Not all troops in a given area attend the same summer camps however.
Scout troops with openly homosexual leaders will lose their membership.
...or in blue jurisdictions see Scouting cast out entirely, as the San Francisco School Board did with JROTC over the objections of the participating, mostly minority, students.
Julie C said... Reading some of the comments here I have to ask: do any of you who are so convinced that gay people are out to molest your little boys actually know any gay people?
The Story of Moira Greyland
I've met Marion Zimmer Bradley (Greyland's mother). I've known other homosexuals. Most of them are relatively harmless. Some are not. The slang term "chicken hawk" was not invented by anti-homosexual bigots. Nor "rent boy".
Some homosexuals emulate conventional chaste heterosexuality - practicing monogamy. They are a minority, Some homosexuals emulate conventional promiscuous heterosexuality - fooling around a lot, as hetero men would, if women would go along. And some are sexual radicals like Greyland's parents.
Birches:
Your question is interesting. Is it your belief that adult males in Scouting (whether boy or girl) regularly go on secret little outings involving sharing tents, etc. with just one kid? Because that hasn't been my experience at all. If I had a daughter, I would indeed allow her to go on a group campout that was supervised by two males. It is not my default assumption that two adults together are all about predatory behavior.
There is no reason to run for the hills. Boy scouts and their parents will walk away from troops with openly homosexual leadership. Scout troops with openly homosexual leadership will be shunned by normal teenage boys and their parents who do not want to be a member of a gay scout troop.
Homosexuals will now demand leadership positions in Boy Scout Troops.
I don't live in an area of the country with a lot of Evangelicals so I can't answer that.
Nor do I (nor LDS). The point is that an extremely large percentage of scouts belong to these groups and losing them removes their financial contribution. Plus there are several rich LDS members who support scouts with very large donations, in the tens of millions per year. A Deseret news report claimed LDS participation is 430k of 2.6 million troop members, and presumably a similar percentage of pack members. Evangelicals would be an even larger group (although unlikely to 100% leave as the LDS would if they so choose). Would this be 40-60% of scouts?
That camp has managed the ups and downs of Scout membership just fine.
There has never been a down in membership like there will be if LDS or Evangelicals leave en masse. So past experience doesn't mean much.
Where I live, you will find people who were opposed to Boy Scouts because of their previous stance on gays. Where you live, maybe that's the opposite.
No, I live in a blue area. But you misunderstand. The scout position on gays gave the left a fig leaf, but their disdain for scouts will remain no matter how deeply the scout position on gays is rooted out. The left's antipathy to the boy scouts is far deeper. A love for America and tradition have no place on the left. Even in leftish places like mine scout support comes from the right.
I'm not sure how old you are, but are you aware the original boy scout goal was to become "square"? Something that could be counted on, used to build a strong foundation. Did you think the left's ridicule of "squares" was their own terminology or invention? This wasn't a general antipathy to people who didn't use drugs, as is sometimes implied in 60s retrospectives. It was a specific targeting of the Boy Scouts that grew into general use. And note these insults long predate the left's concern over gay scouts or leaders.
"My little slice of the Bay Area "
Well, that explains it. Have fun in the Gay Scouts, a very small group once the gays lose interest. The left is basically opposed to the sort of conservative culture the scouts represent. Once they win this one they will lose interest.
The pro-gay Episcopal church collapsed the membership. The Episcopal church in Newport Beach, which lost its congregation when the bishops embraced the gay lifestyle, sued to keep the congregation from owning the church they and their parents had built over 50 years. The Episcopal diocese won the suit and has sold the church to real estate developers.
The Scouts don't own much property but they will disappear like the Episcopal church. Now, the diocese is digging up remains buried at the church as they sell it.
Is it your belief that adult males in Scouting (whether boy or girl) regularly go on secret little outings involving sharing tents, etc. with just one kid?I had a daughter, I would indeed allow her to go on a group campout that was supervised by two males. It is not my default assumption that two adults together are all about predatory behavior.
Secret outings!!! I never said that. I know all about Scouting. Spouse has been a Scoutmaster for a number of years. He just got back from Venturing Camp with his troop.
It's not predatory behavior; it's smart optics and propriety, and the prevention of misunderstanding. I'd never allow my teenage daughter to go on a group campout with two male leaders, just as I'd never allow my teenage son to go on a group campout with two female leaders. I don't care how "two deep" your leadership is, a situation of overnight camping can give the appearance of compromising very quickly. I'm not sure how many thinking adults would willingly put themselves into such a situation.
I think most parents of teenagers feel the same way, but for some reason if we flip the script to gay male, then all notions of propriety, optics and good taste go out the window or else "bigot!"
Kevin DuJan of HillBuzz had thoughts on this topic a couple years ago. Why Gays Should Not Be Scout Leaders (But Should Be Allowed to Be Scouts Until Age 18)
Read more http://hillbuzz.org/why-gays-should-not-be-scout-leaders-but-should-be-allowed-to-be-scouts-until-age-18-60035.
Birches - I never called you or anyone here a bigot. Nor did the word homophobia appear in anything I said.
I don't know about your troop, but in mine, all of the leaders, male and female, past and present, have been parents of kids in the troop. One long-time Scoutmaster's kids had long since gone off to college, but he remained Scoutmaster for several years because he enjoyed it so much. Group campouts do not involve adults and kids sleeping in the same tent, unless they are parent and child, and most boys don't want to share a tent with a parent in any case. So, no, I would not have a problem with two adult males, females, or otherwise responsible kangaroos supervising a campout or a backpacking trip. Our summer camp has separate sleeping quarters for the patrols, the older senior scouts, and the adults. The adults have their own bathroom too.
There are definitely predators out there and they come in all shapes and sizes. Immediately ruling someone out as a leader because of their sexual orientation is just wrong, in my view. My son is simply asking to be allowed to participate in scouting activities when he is a parent.
"Reading some of the comments here I have to ask: do any of you who are so convinced that gay people are out to molest your little boys actually know any gay people?"
Yes, and a many of the gays I knew have either expressed a desire for boys or have attempted to molest boys. Next question?
Fen: sounds like you need to get out and meet a better class of people. Or maybe something about you brings out the pedophile in people?
"What does this mean for religious traditionalists?"
It means the same thing it means to anyone: that the BSA are more concerned with being politically correct than with the "trustworthy, loyal, helpful[s] ..." being buggered and the ensuing liability.
Most churches are receiving legal advice on how to protect themselves from the rainbow crusaders. "Dump the Boy Scouts" ought to be right up there.
Almost every gay adult I know has talked about trying to have relations with a younger boy or girl, and several of them have talked about succeeding. The only exceptions are my uncles, of whom 3 are gay, and I really hope they are truly an exception. If not, the family rumor mill will wind around eventually, I guess. And the class of gays I know are middle-upper-middle class.
I had gaybors in Naperville, IL (not a slum by any means). They broke up, and one went back to live with his parents. In the interim, the other (who was 32, a few years older than me at the time) often had strange cars parked in front of the townhouse. Being that our townhouses were all connected by walls, I'd been able to hear quite a bit happening (no voices, just sounds, some distinct, some thankfully not so).
One night, after having a girl over myself (and a beyond legal, non-creepy one at that), I'd walked her out to her car, and remained on my front porch (which was shared between our townhouses) to finish a cigarette. As usual for a Sunday night, there was a strange car outside, and one of a few that I'd seen before in the past few weeks. My lady friend left, and I was about to go in, when I heard a noise behind me.
The gaybor's door opened, and out came a young boy. I will not definitively say he was underage. I will definitively say that his face had never seen a razor, and didn't need to. I will also definitively say that while he immediately went to his car parked a few feet away, I was genuinely concerned over whether this lad was a driver's license holder, or if he'd have to violate the terms of his learner's permit to get home that night.
Never confronted my gaybor about it. Never mentioned it to anyone else. It wasn't my business. But thinking about it now, and how I did my best to convince myself that surely this boy was at least 17 or 18, I'm not so sure I should have let it slip my mind.
I dunno. Maybe some of the talk that I heard from my gay friends was just wishful thinking, intentional perversion (like the phrase, "I get older, but high school girls stay the same age."), or play acting. But I'm unwilling to believe that all of it is.
Oh my God!
I just woke up from a feverish dream where former Secretary of State Robert M. Gates was one of my roommates back in law school, and he told me that there was a final exam tomorrow, and I was all in a panic because I hadn't attended even one class, and I was totally unprepared, and then, suddenly, I was ice skating with a watermelon, and then the mother of some autistic kid was in front of the local school board demanding that her autistic son be allowed to attend regular classes, and to compete in all sporting events, along with the assistance of a special team of school-provided support staff, 24-7, because her son was simply asking to be allowed to do all of the things that everybody else does that she says her son loves doing, too, because he is her son.
Weird.
@Julie C: During my tenure as a metropolitan sex crimes prosecutor, every case, let me repeat, every case, of sexual misconduct with a male teen victim involved homosexual behavior initiated by a priest, a coach or a camp counselor, such as a Boy Scout leader.
Separate tents? Where there's a will, there's a way. But of course that shouldn't outweigh the wishes of homosexuals, including those who are parents, to be scout leaders. After all, we don't want to be called homophobes.
"Or maybe something about you brings out the pedophile in people?"
Here we see the automatic reaction of the looney left. "Why do you worry about gay scoutmasters ? Are you a closeted gay ?"
This is why we cannot have conversations with these people. My left wing (not gay but a lawyer) son assured me that I was deluded that gays were interested in punishing churches for declining to perform gay weddings. They are so certain of their own virtue that anyone who questions it must be evil.
Hombre - and how many women were violently raped by, wait for it, men? And your point is? I keep reading about cases in which female teachers in junior high and high school were caught having relationships with their male students.
Where there's a will there's a way? With that logic, then, all a potential predator would have to do is pretend to be straight, marry some sad sack female, and use his standing as a married man to gain access to children. Oh no, that never happens. Much better off banning openly gay men from leadership positions in a troop. Because who knows, that gay guy might try to hop into your pimply-faced kid's two person tent and have his way with him while two dozen other kids and adults are in their tents a few feet away.
I don't automatically look at a gay man and think, hmm, potential molester. That you, and others here do, says a lot about your mindset.
Michael K - the looney left? More like a Republican woman bitch-slapping an asshole. Those who know me (and who may have paid attention to any of my other comments on other topics here) would know that I am far from a left-winger. I'll share that one with my son - he'll get a kick out of it!
I said nothing about gay scoutmasters to Fen. I said something about pedophiles. There is a difference.
Julie C said...do any of you who are so convinced that gay people are out to molest your little boys actually know any gay people?
A few. One's finally in prison after his third trial with different sets of accusers for molesting 8 to 15 year-old boys, three of whom I know.
What will this mean for The Gay Scouts?
Julie C: "I don't automatically look at a gay man and think, hmm, potential molester. That you, and others here do, says a lot about your mindset."
I'm sorry. Could you repeat that? I couldn't hear you over the continuous bleatings of the lefties that every white male conservative is a racist/misogynist.
"My little slice of the Bay Area."
Im'a stop you right there. You can fuck right on off, Ms. Kael.
Julie, you are a caricature of the looney left. I can't help it that you haven't found your true vocation.
Maybe it's the Bay Area.
"More like a Republican woman bitch-slapping an asshole"
To paraphrase you, do you know any Republicans ?
For what it's worth, I was 18 and in a theater group when I was hit on repeatedly and sleazily by a 40 something assistant director.
I have no reason to think he was a pedophile. I'm sure 18 year old women get propositioned a lot. But that fucker sure as shit shouldn't be a Boy Scout leader.
"a Republican woman bitch-slapping an asshole. "
Does anyone else notice how quickly the gay mafia moves to ad hominem retorts ?
Did I call you anything disrespectful ?
It's not even close. About a third of all child molestation victims we know of are male. It's pretty rare for a woman to be a predator in that way. So they aren't creating that many victims. If gay men represent two percent of the adult male population they're generating 33 percent of the victims.
The math is pretty damning and it's not even close. We're talking 16 times more likely to commit child molestation than the average and a 1:1 predator/victim ratio, though I assume a smaller number are generating multiple numbers of victims, a la Sandusky. And these people will actively seek out opportunities to recruit and groom future victims. The results are predictable. Congratulations on letting the fox into the chicken coop, libtards. You gave them an engraved invitation. And NONE of you assholes has any skin in the game. You're pulling the slot machine lever with other peoples' children.
Michael K - I did not call you anything disrespectful. You should re-read what I wrote. it didn't refer to you.
I wrote Althouse a while ago and said that I had never before commented here regarding gay marriage because I could not believe the disgusting vitriol that passed for thinking when the subject of homosexuality came up. I wondered to her how she was able to put up with it. For me, I usually just scroll right through some of the comments because they are a cesspool of the worst kind of narrow-mindedness.
And I have been proven right.
Deal with the math, Toots.
Otherwise, you got nothin.'
Julie,
You have always been a reasonable commenter before (and I have lurked here for years), but it strikes me that you are letting a perceived affront to someone near and dear to you, in whose integrity you have no doubt, drive you into a "mama bear" attack mode, striking out at those who normally are on the same page with you. Most people here are arguing against the stupid, ill-considered change which will ruin a great organization that has done a lot of good through the decades, and you can't see beyond the "victimization" of your son. You have this in common with Althouse herself, who is totally deranged when it comes to "gay" issues and refuses to see the forest for the trees. I think this is beneath you. We are all familiar with exceptions to every rule. Doesn't mean there should not be rules or that generalizations cannot and should not be made.
Julie C said: Fen: sounds like you need to get out and meet a better class of people. Or maybe something about you brings out the pedophile in people?
You're a fucking cunt.
You asked if I knew any gays, so I answered I have and most either want to or have seduced boys. You didn't like my answer so you insulted me.
And you have the gall to complain about the "tone" of some of the commenters on this blog? Guess what cunt, you just made my list. We're gonna play.
Unless you get on your knees and grovel an apology like a good little bitch.
Fucking cunt.
Julie C the Pedophile
Julie is not really a woman. He is pre-op that still enjoys little boys. That's why "Julie" wants gay scout leaders, it stocks the pond for his perversions.
And that bit about his "tenure" as a metropolitan sex crimes prosecutor? That was behind bars. Whatever he claims to know, it came from cases re his own sex crimes.
Julie C 8:21: "I don't automatically look at a gay man and say, hmmm, potential molester...."
You don't get it, do you? Your first two paragraphs are non sequiturs. The third is narrow-minded stereotyping.
I haven't attacked anyone. I have described circumstances involving homosexual predation that have been repeated often enough to warrant some consideration for the notion that the safety of boys from predators and the related potential civil liability ought to outweigh the whims of a few gay men who want to be scout leaders. I also think hetero men ought not to be Girls Scout leaders.
If you can't see the reasons for either you are short-sighted or foolish or both.
I don't automatically look at a gay man and think, hmm, potential molester. That you, and others here do, says a lot about your mindset.
7/28/15, 8:21 PM
It's because you're a woman and don't understand male sexuality.
There is a reason we don't put males in charge of the girl scouts and send them all out calling together. It's no different when sending a gay male with boys.
Camping together. Not calling.
@Fen: The "bit about tenure as a metropolitan sex crimes prosecutor" was from my comment, not Julie's.
Try to keep the facts straight in your insults please.
JulieC: Hombre - and how many women were violently raped by, wait for it, men?
A non-trivial and actuarially foreseeable number. Which is why we don't let men lead Girl Scout troops.
I usually just scroll right through some of the comments
My, how narrow minded of you.
I do the exact opposite and read everything posted, in the hopes of achieving a new insight, or at least in order to understand my opposition.
Just got through the harrowing Moira Greyhawk story, and looked up the background Breendoggle information. Just repulsive. Not just the psychopathic behavior of Walter Breen and Marion Zimmer Bradley - I'm aware that such monsters do live among us - but at the pathetic handwringing response of a community that knew very well what Breen was up to... He would openly molest 3 year olds at parties in front of crowds of people ... And who couldn't bring themselves to lift a finger to stop him or report the guy. They couldn't even get a consensus on kicking him out of their little literary and artistic circle at Berkeley.
Like Julia C, they would rather condemn future children to molestation and rape rather than appear to their fellow Bay Area enablers to be judgmental. If you read John Donohoe's account of what was going on it's truly astounding.
If there were a gay Scout Master actively abusing his charges (or her's! Moira says her mother was far, far worse than her father), how would we know? Bay Area people can't be trusted to put a stop to this behavior by reporting it. Nobody stopped Walter Breen until his own teenage daughter had to, for abusing a child right in front of her.
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