Althouse: "There are also voice coaches who teach how to speak like a woman without sounding like Mrs. Doubtfire..."

June 6, 2015

"There are also voice coaches who teach how to speak like a woman without sounding like Mrs. Doubtfire..."

"... or how to speak like a man without sounding like a bad impersonation of Johnny Depp. Kathe Perez, a speech pathologist in Denver, has built a career on feminizing voices. She has launched two voice-training apps and plans to unveil a third this month. Her customers frequently discover her through YouTube, where hundreds of channels show off the results of trans surgeries or helpful tutorials. (Pro tips: 'Watch soap operas with the sound off to see how women move their hands' and 'men use fewer words in their sentences.')"

From a Washington Post story — "Learning how to be a lady? For the transgender market, coaches help" — about all the ways to make money from transgender people.

Those "pro" tips about acting like a man/women are repackaged sexist stereotypes: Women talk too much. Women talk with their hands. Suddenly, instead of being an insult, it's marketable advice, suitable to the aspirations of males who want to seem womanly.

76 comments:

rhhardin said...: Walk like an Egyptian.; 6/6/15, 7:52 AM
rhhardin said...: There's Erving Goffman's book Gender Advertisements, showing that stereotype isn't the right word.

It's more what you do without noticing that you're doing it.

It's presumed that it has a purpose in the social order and winds up in sociology, if they're not disparaging it now.; 6/6/15, 7:55 AM
Bay Area Guy said...: More of the weird obsession of trying to make men more like women, and women more like men - part 146.; 6/6/15, 7:55 AM
traditionalguy said...: So transgendered are in rebellion against men and women as equals. They desire to live in a world of the old gender differences, Vive la transgendered that are back where men and women function as different people. Or was a hard journey
To get back to where God started it.; 6/6/15, 7:57 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: I can do only a handful of accents, all comic. Cockney in the style of Dick Van Dyke. Scottish like Fat Bastard. Indian like Rajesh Koothrappali. Pretty standard stuff.

So I went to our local public library system which has scads and scads of audio courses to teach you English as a second language or Spanish or French or whatever.

Nothing for actors on how to do accents. Nothing.

And I'm all, like, what the hell? Everyone's heard of the musician's fake book.

What gives?; 6/6/15, 7:58 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: I wish I could do a stuffy English butler.

Then I could say really sexist things and it would sound classy!; 6/6/15, 7:59 AM
pious agnostic said...: Seems to me that if you were a woman trapped in a man's body you'd already know all that shit.; 6/6/15, 8:04 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "So transgendered are in rebellion against men and women as equals. They desire to live in a world of the old gender differences, Vive la transgendered that are back where men and women function as different people. Or was a hard journey. To get back to where God started it."

One might choose the subordinate role. One might have an unchosen sexual orientation to the submissive role. That could have something to do with the transgender phenomenon. It's hard for a heterosexual man to fulfill his sexual desires if he feels oriented toward submission.

The problem, I think, is having the submissive role imposed on you because of your biological sex. That's the subordination of woman that we, as a culture, have risen above. That doesn't mean it's wrong to want to be in the submissive role if that's what you find sexually or emotionally fulfilling.

It might be disturbing to some women to see biological males adopting a submissive female role. There's a "blackface" quality to it that could be considered offensive.; 6/6/15, 8:11 AM
David Begley said...: Hillary should get that app.; 6/6/15, 8:12 AM
Anonymous said...: The guys at Red Letter Media theorize Robin Williams based Mrs. Doubtfire's mannerisms on Christine Hamilton, founder of the Geritol Follies.; 6/6/15, 8:12 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Kris Jenner seems like a very dominating woman, and Bruce Jenner was married to her for quite a while. Presumably, he loved her and believed he could get what he wanted from her. I don't watch KUWTK, but it's possible that he just wanted respect as a seriously and genuinely submissive man.; 6/6/15, 8:14 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Seems to me that if you were a woman trapped in a man's body you'd already know all that shit."

Then why aren't all biological females gracefully expressive with their hands and chattily expressive in their speech?; 6/6/15, 8:18 AM
Ann Althouse said...: This discussion is making me think about Motown's "charm school."; 6/6/15, 8:23 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Or "My Fair Lady."; 6/6/15, 8:24 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Commercial services training you to be the right kind of woman.; 6/6/15, 8:24 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: So the Neo-Nazi Girlfriend who Is Not My Girlfriend and I go back to her place after visiting her mother again -- I know, I shouldn't be doing that, but the fresh-baked cookies are terrific -- and we are having sex on her futon when she says:

"Talk to me like a Black Man!"

I pause for a moment, dumbfounded.We are in the missionary position, by the way: maybe that detail matters, maybe it doesn't.

"What?"

"Talk to me like a Black Man!"

"I'm not sure what that means," I say.

"Call me your bitch, call me your ho!" she replies; her breasts are stupendous -- have I mentioned that?

"I don't think I can do that."

"Tell me: Bitch, I'm gonna fuck yo white azz!"

"I'm not really sure Black Men all talk that way..."

"Go 'Whoop! Whoop'! Tell me yo gonna get jiggy wit it!"

"I don't think even Will Smith says 'jiggy' anymore..."

"Pull out the jammy, and kill the punanny!"

"Huh?"

"Make yo dick run deep, so deep, so deep it puts my ass to sleep!"

A-ha. I realize she is quoting Ice Cube, which makes it official: "It Was a Good Day" is the rap song even Neo-Nazis can love. What can I do? So I say:

"Bitch, I'm gonna fuck yo white azz!" and she squeals in delight and we proceed to anal.

I realize she is a neo-Nazi and all, but Today WAS a Good Day.

I am Laslo.; 6/6/15, 8:27 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: "Didn't they teach you anything, except how to be cruel, in that charm school?"

-- Elvis Costello; 6/6/15, 8:28 AM
Balfegor said...: Re:eric the fruit bat

Try the International Dialects of English Archive.; 6/6/15, 8:31 AM
Jane the Actuary said...: This is depressing. And frustrating.

Every last bit of publicity for the transgenders is perversely announcing that real women wear makeup and nail polish, and spend lots of time on their looks, and, heck, have abundant boobs -- and, heck, according to the Washington Post, I'm starting to think that I'm not a woman and need to invent a new label for "person with XX chromosomes and female reproductive bits who doesn't desire to emulate Kim Kardashian in appearance."

After all, I'm as flat-chested as they come (and don't even have the excuse of being hyper-athletic), and gave up on makeup many years back.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/janetheactuary/2015/06/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-woman.html; 6/6/15, 8:32 AM
SGT Ted said...: The reality of gender differences in mannerisms and speech, as well as habits, aren't sexist, despite efforts of feminists to portray them as such. They are observed reality in a lot of people. That some do not display such mannerisms, or are different in other ways, does not negate that the majority do have them, quite naturally and it is not a bad thing that they do.

The effort of feminists to change others who do display said mannerisms, as well as change how others think by disparaging and demonizing these mannerisms, is a form of leftist cultural bigotry.

Funny how women complain that men don't talk more and then complain that men notice that women talk more.; 6/6/15, 8:35 AM
jr565 said...: It's acting a role. Who needs acting coaches to act like your true self. Bruce is not a real person anymore. He's playing the part of STEREOTYPE woman. Long hair. Check. Breasts. Check.Shaved legs. Check. Long hours putting on makeup. Check. Oh the pressure that society place on women to look pretty. Even has the female arguments against female objctification down. Only, if ANYONE is acting like a stereotype it's a transgendered person. Is there anything remotely authentic about Bruce's simulacrum of a woman?
And he's convinced that his whole life prior to getting all this plastic surgery was a lie. And his truth is this person who looks nothing like his natural state and who got it through operations and taking sex hormones, probably in excess.
Plastic woman as authentic self.; 6/6/15, 8:39 AM
jr565 said...: Althouse wrote:
Then why aren't all biological females gracefully expressive with their hands and chattily expressive in their speech?

is that how women necessarily speak? It's like the scen in Birdcage where Robin Williams tries to get Nathan Lane to act more masculine and tells him to try to walk and talk like John Wayne.
Stereotypical man. Do men really talks like John Wayne?
just like Nathan Lane, transgendered are playing a part. And need to be taught stereotypes and then try to emulate them. That's somehow authentic.; 6/6/15, 8:43 AM
rhhardin said...: Two Weeks Notice (Hugh Grant and Sandra Bullock)

Lucy: So tell me. What's the matter with me?

George: Well, you can be somewhat intimidating. You could loosen up a little, get in touch with your feminine side.

Lucy: Okay, that's a good suggestion.

George: Perhaps soften your appearance. Not that I don't love tha tlook, but you could get dolled up occasionally.

Lucy: I'm not going to spend hours fluffing my hair and applying animal-tested makeup to my face just so I can turn myself into some male fantasy, degrading kewpie doll. Unless I, you know, really like the guy or something.

George: You see, maybe that's the problem You don't like these guys. You drive them away because you realize, deep down, that they're wrong for you.; 6/6/15, 8:46 AM
rhhardin said...: John Wayne School a Elocution.; 6/6/15, 8:48 AM
jr565 said...: If Bruce spends an extra 5 grand he can get surgery to have his voice pitch raised to be more like a woman's. Because that is his real authentic voice. He just doesn't have it yet, because he hasn't gone to the doctor to have his vocal cords worked on. he's not fully a woman yet. Needs a few more plastic surgeries. Since everyone knows that plastic surgeries are what make women authentic. That and plenty of makeup.
it's so hard to be a woman, with all the pressure applied by society on making themselves look pretty. Is he mocking women? I'm wondering if he is doing all of this to Rubin Kris's face how much of a narcissist she was. And this is way of telling her she's shallow and vain. It's almost like satire.
Yet, no one would go through this much surgery just to prove a point to their ex.; 6/6/15, 8:51 AM
SGT Ted said...: Althouse wrote:
Then why aren't all biological females gracefully expressive with their hands and chattily expressive in their speech?

It's almost as if trans women aren't real women.; 6/6/15, 8:53 AM
Bay Area Guy said...: AA: "The problem, I think, is having the submissive role imposed on you because of your biological sex. That's the subordination of woman that we, as a culture, have risen above. That doesn't mean it's wrong to want to be in the submissive role if that's what you find sexually or emotionally fulfilling. "

With due respect to the good Professor, this is the source of a confused, left-wing mind. Indeed, only an academician or theoretician could reach these conclusions. Nobody imposed nothin' on you. Nobody assigned "submissive" roles or "dominant" roles, who speaks like this, but a utopian theoretician? "Emotional fulfillment" isn't the end towards which all human activity is geared, jeez.

In the real world, there are men and woman. There are biological differences between men and women. There are societal differences between men and women. Babies have to be made, work needs to done, wars need to be fought, love needs to be nurtured. Sometimes, it shakes out better for men, sometimes it shakes our better for women.

But fighting against nature and trying to upend a sucessful Western Civilization because a handful of driven females and effeminate males need "emotional fulfillment" is just plain wacky. If one needs "emotional fulfillment", go read 50 Shades of Grey. Most working men and women don't have the luxury of pondering these questions. They're too busy working, cooking, raising kids, going to little league games, building things, paying bills, living their lives.; 6/6/15, 8:55 AM
Ambrose said...: This is the sort of thing that renews my faith in America. No matter what comes along and becomes acceptable, trendy or required, someone, somewhere will figure out how to make some money from it.; 6/6/15, 8:56 AM
jr565 said...: Scene from th Birdcage:
http://youtu.be/TmO1R-GqD50

We just need to find a stereotypical woman for Bruce to practice copying in the same way. Bette Davis? Who do the female impersonators use as a model?
no, Bruce you need to sway your hips more. you are walking too much like your fake self.

The difference is that in the Birdcage Nathan Lane was being called upon to act like something he was not. In this case the transgendered are being taught to act like what they are. Their natural actions and movements are wrong. In the modern retelling Bruce is the acting job, so he needs coaches to get him to act like Bette Davis. Because that's who he really is.; 6/6/15, 8:59 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: Bookmarked. Thanks, Balfegor!; 6/6/15, 9:06 AM
Anonymous said...: AA: One might choose the subordinate role. One might have an unchosen sexual orientation to the submissive role. That could have something to do with the transgender phenomenon.

But whether that has much to with the particular "transgender phenomenon" that's being shoved in our faces right now is open to question. If one were genuinely curious, that is.

The problem, I think, is having the submissive role imposed on you because....yadda yadda yadda.

You want to shoehorn this into the pre-fab gender-theory musings that happen to interest you. Staying at the tabloid level of understanding facilitates that. For someone who seems to find the issue so riveting, you show a remarkable lack of curiosity about moving anywhere beyond that level of "information", and a remarkable gullibility about the "information" provided at that level.; 6/6/15, 9:10 AM
Anonymous said...: Kathe Perez, a speech pathologist in Denver, has built a career on feminizing voices.

[...]

...it's marketable advice, suitable to the aspirations of males who want to seem womanly.

Hey, marketers, there's a much, much larger target demographic out here that could use some training in sounding more womanly. So many American women, especially younger ones, have loud, ugly speaking voices. (Way too many American men think the world is interested in their cell phone and restaurant conversations, too, but that's another story.)

Their voices are not "unfeminine", in the sense that they are instantly recognizable as being female voices. They're just really, really unattractive and off-putting. Is Perez teaching her trannies to sound and act like that? The last thing we need out here is more obnoxious uptalkers screeching in a higher register.; 6/6/15, 9:27 AM
JSD said...: I noted that the WaPo author is Jessica Contrera. That’s a nice Mexican name. Bruce Jenner was the lunchroom joke of the day, but the Mexicans at work are a little troubled by all this. Everybody jokes about curanderas and Jesus on a tortilla, but this is less funny to them. Men becoming women, women becoming men, exiled diasporas, beheading, depravity. To some Mexicans, they're all signs for the End-Of-Days. I haven’t been to church in 40 years, but I have empathy for their concerns.; 6/6/15, 9:35 AM
Big Mike said...: Women and Italian men talk with their hands in nearly continuous motion. Not sure why that is. I can't tell you how many times I've passed a car being driven slowly and erratically and discovered that there's a woman driving it who's holding her cell phone with one hand and gesturing with the other. Steering the car with her knees, I suppose.

There's a reason why stereotypes exist, Professor.; 6/6/15, 9:57 AM
Big Mike said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/6/15, 9:57 AM
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: Those "pro" tips about acting like a man/women are repackaged sexist stereotypes:

They are just stereotypes, and to function as such, they must be based on truth.

You can't stereotype Blacks as "bookish and quiet", but you can "Asians". Why?

And, stereotypes are useful as a placeholder (better than nothing) until you get more direct information about the individual from the group you are stereotyping. Then you replace the stereotype with direct and specific knowledge.

Surely you understand the valuable role of stereotypes.; 6/6/15, 9:57 AM
Big Mike said...: I got the dreaded double post.; 6/6/15, 9:59 AM
etbass said...: Anglelyne is right. Seems that all women nowadays, including my own five daughters, TALK LOUD. There just isn't the soft feminine voice around anymore. No theories from me; just an observation.; 6/6/15, 10:05 AM
rhhardin said...: Bayes' theorm connects the probability of being a mathematician given that you're a woman and the probability of your being a woman given that you're a mathematician.

One is a stereotype and one isn't, curiously.

Nevertheless, it's a theorem. At least today. It might turn out to be oppressive.; 6/6/15, 10:13 AM
rhhardin said...: Burger King has lots of tables so that you can move away from teenaged females. I noticed that in the 80s.; 6/6/15, 10:14 AM
Sebastian said...: "That's the subordination of woman that we, as a culture, have risen above"

Tell it to the Title IX-enforcing, rape culture-obsessed SJWs.

Now we just have to rise above the subordination of men, and we'll be in Prog paradise.; 6/6/15, 10:18 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "It's almost as if trans women aren't real women."

No, it's almost as if biological women need to learn how to be cultural women.

Why can't we all just be whoever we naturally are? Because you can't get there. You were raised in a family, in a coomunity.

This is like the way we can't make a woolly mammoth even if we can cause the biological entity to exist. It would be something else. You wouldn't even get to see the part of the mammoth that's inborn, because somebody or some other animal would raise it.; 6/6/15, 10:32 AM
Ann Althouse said...: @Angelyne I didn't purport to provide information. Information is your word. If you are so interested in information, why don't you provide some instead of just commenting on the lack of any? Your standards. You live up to them. Me, i make observations, such as pointing out incoherence and hypocrisy. My standards. I try to live up to them.; 6/6/15, 10:39 AM
Bay Area Guy said...: AA: "No, it's almost as if biological women need to learn how to be cultural women."

This is the definition of chutzpah. Women were generally fine with both manners and culture, until a bunch of crazy feminists told them they were bored, worthless, and oppressed, and then pressured them to give up child-rearing to join the rat race.

How's that working out for society as a whole?; 6/6/15, 10:46 AM
Babaluigi said...: Decades ago, I was introduced to a man going through "the change" to become a woman. He was surrounded by a very protective group of friends, and I was not told of the situation but heard his female name whispered and then saw a very tall person in the corner with somewhat of a Praetorian guard around him. Obviously this a big deal to let strangers in on what was going on.

I am sorry, but there was no mistaking him for a woman at this time. He/she was extremely tall and unfortunately, and did not have a feminine face at all (beyond symmetry, I believe beauty is subjective, but that feminine and masculine visual characteristics do exist). The one thing that struck me the most, though, was the way "Charlotte" held her pocketbook. It was a way-too-small shoulder bag, that was held like that of a person afraid someone else was going to tear it away from them at any moment. It is strange, but for all of the incongruities of appearance going on in that person at that time, that was the most unnatural and attention-getting.

It was obvious that this was a very fragile human being who was cared for by truly loving friends. There was constant talk of what a "good and gentle soul" Charlotte was, who was "so nonjudgmental" (but it was the 70's and I think we were all fairly nonjudgmental back then...) I recall talk of hormone therapy, which widened the hips and so forth, but do not believe any surgeries had taken place yet.

So, this was very early in the transition, and may have been the first introduction of "Charlotte" to strangers. It is possible that this was the first "test run" out in public at all. The evening's entertainment was to go en masse (there must have been 20 or so of us) to see "Rocky Horror Picture Show", at Charlotte's request...; 6/6/15, 10:49 AM
rhhardin said...: No, it's almost as if biological women need to learn how to be cultural women.

Right, but it's through what you admire.

Say-foring, child raising.

Admiring feminists happens in the teen years, I'd guess, when boys become a problem.; 6/6/15, 11:21 AM
Paco Wové said...: Being a wooly mammoth is totally a cultural construct. I think I'll be one tomorrow.; 6/6/15, 11:24 AM
Bay Area Guy said...: I guess there's another option here for those have have internal conflicts between their male biology and their supposedly "female" minds. Try changing the mind, not the body.; 6/6/15, 11:45 AM
traditionalguy said...: Who doesn't want to be a Neanderthal. The Green Bay Packers have several cultural Neanderthals on the team, but thankfully not genetic ones because then the helmet wouldn't fit.; 6/6/15, 12:49 PM
jr565 said...: Bay ARea Guy wrote:
I guess there's another option here for those have have internal conflicts between their male biology and their supposedly "female" minds. Try changing the mind, not the body.

Yes, Exactly! THe problem is not that there is really such a thing as a defineable gender that is based on a social construct. The problem is they are uncomfortable in their bodies. So clearly the issue shouldn't be to make them new bodies. The issue should be to make them accept that what they have is fine and they don't need new bodies.
Which would conform to gender as a social construct anyway. If you believe that then you don't need to get surgery and start screwing with your body. Whatever your situation is, i.e. youre a woman trapped in a mans body, it would simply be your gender. Are you comfortable with your gender.; 6/6/15, 12:55 PM
chillblaine said...: Coming soon to an I.E.P. near you. Speech pathologists in elementary schools among the legions assisting the behavioral conditioning of mixed up kids transitioning back and forth between genders. What a dog's breakfast.; 6/6/15, 12:57 PM
cubanbob said...: This is like the way we can't make a woolly mammoth even if we can cause the biological entity to exist. It would be something else. You wouldn't even get to see the part of the mammoth that's inborn, because somebody or some other animal would raise it.
6/6/15, 10:32 AM "

When it comes to Bruce Jenner, just exactly where are you going with this?; 6/6/15, 1:08 PM
Anonymous said...: AA: @Angelyne I didn't purport to provide information.

Nobody asked you to provide information, I pointed out that, by all appearances, you don't possess any.

Like somebody said, "i make observations".

Information is your word.

But, tedious as it is, it's your word, too, because there's an implicit claim to possessing information about Jenner's state in your musings. (That is, that he is in some meaningful sense "a woman trapped in a man's body" - whether you want to construe "woman" as biological or "feminine turn of temperament". Is he? Rather than, say, an aggressive narcissist with an off-the-deep-end fetish. Or something else.)

If you are so interested in information, why don't you provide some instead of just commenting on the lack of any? Your standards. You live up to them.

You could do worse than start by googling "late-onset transsexualism" or "autogynephilia" and lighting out into the controversial territories from there. It's wild and woolly and a lot more complex and interesting than the tired and out-dated "women and woolly mammoths are made not born" stuff you're flogging here. (Hint: S. de Beauvoir is not your go-to girl for modern biology.); 6/6/15, 1:47 PM
Gahrie said...: No, it's almost as if biological women need to learn how to be cultural women.

Given our low birth rates, horrendous abortion rate, and the ever-increasing number of older women desperately trying to get pregnant, perhaps they need to learn how to be biological women also?; 6/6/15, 1:54 PM
jr565 said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/6/15, 2:17 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: "Emotional fulfillment" isn't the end towards which all human activity is geared, jeez.

In the real world, there are men and woman. There are biological differences between men and women. There are societal differences between men and women. Babies have to be made, work needs to done, wars need to be fought, love needs to be nurtured. Sometimes, it shakes out better for men, sometimes it shakes our better for women.

Damn, Man! Where were you when King George needed a rebuttal to the Declaration of Independence?

Oh, that's right. He didn't need any rebuttal. Instead, he chose to dominate that situation! Taught those colonists, rebelling as they did against long-standing social roles, a lesson, he did! That's what was in his role to do.

I wonder how it turned out? Isn't the outcome in contests in which we decide between how things are "supposed to be" versus how things "are" preordained?; 6/6/15, 2:58 PM
jr565 said...: I recently saw that there was an operation where you can get elf ears. I was watching LOTR recently and I came to the realization that I'M AN ELF!!! my friends and family said I was crazy when I came out and told them my true race. They said there's no such thing. but I FEEL like its true. How are you going to deny my reality?
I think I have an elf brain. Just because you can't see it on an MRI doesn't mean it's not true.
I'm asking for acceptance and tolerance from everyone as I transition. Also, I realized that I'm also a transgender elf.
Please refer to me going forward as Legolas.

Guren *glassui (Elvish for "My Heart is Glad")
Here is a website with the elvish language for your perusal:

http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/elvish/phrases.html

Don't refer to me as him, or you either or that will be grounds for a sexual harassment claim and also a human rights claim. Since you cant use hateful words against anyone based on race or gender.

My pronoun for you will be "gi" as in Hey you, "Hey gi". Id prefer if you adopt full elvish, but I recognize that not everyone has the time to learn a new language.; 6/6/15, 3:43 PM
jr565 said...: In retrospect I realize that the name Legolas implies a male elf, and since I'm a transgendered elf, I will have to come up with a female elf name.
Here is a list of female elf names:

http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/elvish/girlnames.html
I like "elva" which means Elf like. And I'll be even more elf like when I get my elf ears.

I'm serious people! Don't judge me!; 6/6/15, 3:48 PM
jr565 said...: Pedin i phith in aníron, a nin ú-cheniathog

You would know what that means if you spoke Elf.; 6/6/15, 4:01 PM
jr565 said...: Pedin edhellen.
Gi-bedin edhellen

Imagine me saying that while looking like a beautiful female elf with long flowing dark hair and pouty lips (not to mention my elf ears) like a young Liv Tyler.
(So hot!!!!)
I'm getting aroused just thinking about myself uttering those words as a beautiful Liv Tyler looking elf.; 6/6/15, 4:06 PM
jr565 said...: Rhythm and balls wrote:
I wonder how it turned out? Isn't the outcome in contests in which we decide between how things are "supposed to be" versus how things "are" preordained?

Well one could say you are preordained to be male because your chromosomes are that way and you have a penis. So...; 6/6/15, 4:09 PM
jr565 said...: Anglelyne wrote:
You could do worse than start by googling "late-onset transsexualism" or "autogynephilia" and lighting out into the controversial territories from there. It's wild and woolly and a lot more complex and interesting than the tired and out-dated "women and woolly mammoths are made not born" stuff you're flogging here. (Hint: S. de Beauvoir is not your go-to girl for modern biology.)

the "autogynephilia" angle is really interesting. Just read this recently and it had me shaking my head in agreement:

https://autogynephiliatruth.wordpress.com/2015/04/27/what-many-transgender-activists-dont-want-you-to-know-and-why-you-should-know-it-anyway/; 6/6/15, 4:14 PM
hoyden said...: Ann said, "It might be disturbing to some women to see biological males adopting a submissive female role. There's a "blackface" quality to it that could be considered offensive."

I don't know anyone who buys into the submissive or second class role. Of course that doesn't stop the Nons from believing it and being offended. I think the belief in the subordinate role also explains the derogation, trivialization, and dismissiveness by men; they just can't see it any other way.; 6/6/15, 4:22 PM
jr565 said...: those saying gender is a social construct answer me this. If that is true, why would Bruce Jenner need to change his physical body to match his sex? A man with female genitalia would be a valid gender under that model. So, if you think you need to change it, you are actually in denial of your own gender.
Bruce Jenners Gender is not cis, though he wants it to be.
So then the problem is Bruce not accepting his own gender. Those of us saying "Bruce, you're a man" are not the ones denying his gender. He is.; 6/6/15, 4:24 PM
hoyden said...: Getting assistance for voice therapy is pretty mundane. Back in the dark ages of 1982 I learned the enumerated characteristics of female voice. This is not new. I am surprised folks can be offended by it. This is the first time I have seen it brought up as another reason to dump on transsexuals.

Ann said, "Those "pro" tips about acting like a man/women are repackaged sexist stereotypes: Women talk too much. Women talk with their hands. Suddenly, instead of being an insult, it's marketable advice, suitable to the aspirations of males who want to seem womanly."

I wonder if there are other clients of voice therapists/coaches who folks would find similarly offense. Does a woman who goes for voice therapy insult other women, or is it just transsexuals who insult women?

Do I insult women each time I speak with my 33 year old female coached voice?; 6/6/15, 4:32 PM
hoyden said...: When I first saw this thread I thought Ann must be pulling our leg. Folks can't be getting their 3 minutes of outrage over this. I see I was wrong. I am beginning to think that any thread tagged "transgender" is the ultimate vortex generator. It's not Sarah Palin league vortex but it not insignificant either.

I can relate a little bit to how Sarah Palin must have felt being mercilessly and incessantly attacked by Liberals/Leftists for everything she said and did, or anything they thought she said or did.

I suppose in any culture there needs to be someone to beat up on. Now that it's illegal to make humor about race, sex, religious belief, disability, and ethnicity the transsexuals are served up. Earlier Ann wondered why the popular culture isn't any fun anymore, or something along those lines. Transsexuals to the rescue!; 6/6/15, 4:45 PM
Fen said...: Tranny's pretending to talk like a female grate my nerves. So I can pick them out, like sniffing out stale urine. Maybe its the same way people who hate smoking are sensitive to tobacco odors on clothes.

They aren't women. They are feminized men. In a disgusting way.; 6/6/15, 4:58 PM
hoyden said...: If transsexuals stand accused of reinforcing gender stereotypes then, Houston, we have a problem. Our numbers are pretty insignificant; one in 50,000, or thereabouts. How does that work out? Does my 1 cancel out the 50,000? Since I am not out and about 24/7 someone else will have to take over my reinforcing duties or else my influence slips to like 1 in 150,000.

Also, we are an all volunteer outfit, and we do not reproduce. That puts us at a significant disadvantage when it comes to reinforcing stereotypes or insulting women. If you are looking for some gender stereotype reinforcement, or feelings of insult from me, then you will have to take take a number and get in line. Your request will be processed in the order that it was received. This offer only good for women.

One final note, out of the 150,000+ women that are offended, insulted, or oppressed by my existence, some of them are my friends. If you tried to tell them that I reinforce gender stereotypes they would laugh in your face. Then they would tell you to get a life.; 6/6/15, 5:01 PM
Fen said...: Note to self: Don't ever tangle with Angelyne, she will kick you ass.; 6/6/15, 5:01 PM
Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...: Every time, she worries that passersby are looking at her and wondering if she is a man.

Because .....? It would be good/bad if they were/weren't wondering? Worst would be to not be noticed at all?; 6/6/15, 5:04 PM
Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...: jr565: http://youtu.be/TmO1R-GqD50

Absolutely my favorite scene and line from The Birdcage. "Perfect. I just never realized John Wayne walked that way."

The Duke, bless his heart, was by then probably severely hobbled in a corset.; 6/6/15, 5:15 PM
jr565 said...: hoyden wrote:
If transsexuals stand accused of reinforcing gender stereotypes then, Houston, we have a problem. Our numbers are pretty insignificant; one in 50,000, or thereabouts. How does that work out? Does my 1 cancel out the 50,000? Since I am not out and about 24/7 someone else will have to take over my reinforcing duties or else my influence slips to like 1 in 150,000.

Its not a matter of cancelling women out. I am not a woman. But I think you're using the wrong word. I am not OFFENDED by the reinforcing of gender stereotypes. I'm simply saying its happening.
Transgendered are taking classes on how to talk and walk like women. Meaning women talk that way. Meaning you are trying to approximate how women talk. Do all women talk that way though? Does Althouse talk that way? Why do you have to alk like someone else, when you already have an authentic voice?
And you aren't trying to emulate a specific womans voice. Rather its a general womans voice.

Feminists in particular might be getting annoyed at transgendered trying to talk like the stereotype of what a woman sounds like, because they've been saying for the longest that there are no inherent differences between men and women and that all fiminitiy and masculinity is cultural. i.e. girls don't like barbies and dresses. That's social conditioning.
And here you come along and identify women as wearing dresses and having a high voice and being stereotypically feminine. You are emulating a view of feminity that is tied to feminism as an innate characteristic and not social conditioning.

So they're pissed.; 6/6/15, 5:20 PM
jr565 said...: And I've been saying feminists have been full of crap for saying that there are no inherent differences between men and women, so I'm not in total disagreement with you Hoyden.; 6/6/15, 7:18 PM
hoyden said...: Well, jr565, there's the nub. If I exercise my right to express myself in a feminine way then I am accused of buying into, and reinforcing gender stereotypes. If I exercise my right to indulge my interests and experience I gained while living in the male role then that proves I am not a "real woman" because most real real woman wouldn't have had those experiences. The bottom line is no matter what I do I will offend somebody.

Nowadays I don't try to please anyone. I pick and choose the aspects of masculine and feminine that feel right for me. My voice isn't high pitched and sometimes is mistaken as male. That's okay. I learned a few other things about voice and I apply them as I see fit. It works most of the time. I doubt very many women have a voice like mine, but there are a few, so virtual no one is going to be oppressed by my voice.; 6/6/15, 7:34 PM
hoyden said...: If there are any groups of women who have a claim to be offended or insulted by my emulating their style then it's the soft butch Lesbians. For the most part they are pretty unflappable and definitely uninterested in what I do.; 6/6/15, 8:11 PM
jr565 said...: Hoyden, feminists are completely horrible people. They have all the characteristics that men hate about women, their shrewishness etc, with none of the positives. I see this in many gay rights actavists as well. The ideology overrides the ability to discuss things without emotion. Everything is an attack on their very core. I think it's more that they grew up as liberals/leftists and that's how they argue things since I've noticed gays who aren't leftist are not so stridently militant, for the most part. And women who aren't feminists seem reasonable.; 6/7/15, 8:24 AM