Althouse: Scott Walker gives a classic Scott Walker response when asked about South Carolina and the Confederate battle flag.

June 21, 2015

Scott Walker gives a classic Scott Walker response when asked about South Carolina and the Confederate battle flag.

"I think they're going to have a good healthy debate and should have that debate in South Carolina amongst officials at the state level. I just think before I or anyone else weighs in on anything to do with policy, whether it's this or any other policy decisions, we should honor the dead and the families by allowing them to bury their loved ones. And then you could perfectly ask me that question at some point in the next week or two when that's done."

That's in contrast to what Mitt Romney said (via Twitter): "Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol. To many, it is a symbol of racial hatred. Remove it now to honor #Charleston victims."

205 comments:

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Eric the Fruit Bat said...: Now's the time to make the weasel Wisconsin's official state animal.; 6/21/15, 8:49 AM
Shouting Thomas said...: Your husband appears likely to have a hard-on for months over this opportunity to display his halo.; 6/21/15, 8:51 AM
pious agnostic said...: Do weasels often say things like "Climb down off that grave and put down that bloody shirt and ask me next week?"; 6/21/15, 8:53 AM
rhhardin said...: You have to appease blacks for everything the MSM finds profitable, is the right answer.; 6/21/15, 8:54 AM
lgv said...: I lived in South Carolina back in the late '70s. Times have changed. Just like I have said about "traditional" marriage. Traditions change. Old ones go into the history book. New ones form.

I think South Carolinians of a newer generation should just quietly remove the flag. The problem is that it can't be done quietly. Trying to coerce the removal of another state's flag has the opposite effect. It makes them want to stand up for their right to decide for themselves. I'm sure many support keeping the flag, not out a desire to maintain some relic of history, but out of defiance. I seriously doubt Haley gives a crap about a flag from 150 years ago.

Just like gay marriage, keep giving a vote and eventually it will change on its own.; 6/21/15, 8:55 AM
pious agnostic said...: In this, the defining issue of our times, Jeb Bush is a proven leader.; 6/21/15, 8:57 AM
Meade said...: Do the majority of South Carolinians still defiantly wish to secede from the Union? Do the majority of South Carolinians still defiantly believe in white supremacy? Institutionalized racism? Slavery?; 6/21/15, 9:07 AM
khesanh0802 said...: @ Meade Most likely no. But apparently a majority still does not like to be told what to do by those outside the state.; 6/21/15, 9:13 AM
Bay Area Guy said...: Along with the Confederate Flag, let's not forget that the political party of the Confederacy was the "Democratic" Party. Should the party name also be changed so as not to conjure up terrible memories and associations with slavery, racism and the losing side of the Civil War?; 6/21/15, 9:15 AM
Michael K said...: That is just the Democrats, who designed that flag, pandering to their base. Do Democrats do anything but pander these days ?; 6/21/15, 9:15 AM
Hagar said...: Don't forget the black soldiers who also fought valiantly for the Confederacy.; 6/21/15, 9:21 AM
Chuck said...: David French defends the Confederate Flag at the National Review Online:

"So I’ve followed this most recent round of debate over the Confederate battle flag with perhaps greater than normal interest. In the immediate aftermath of mass shootings, there is always a demand to “do something.” Always, that demand involves gun control — typically, gun-control measures that wouldn’t have actually stopped the shooting in question. But often there’s something more. In the aftermath of the Gabby Giffords shooting, the Left demanded “civility” — despite zero evidence that the barking-mad perpetrator was motivated by any form of political discourse. Now the demand is to remove the Confederate battle flag from a Confederate memorial in South Carolina (and presumably elsewhere)..."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420060/confederate-flag-should-stay-charleston-shooting-debate; 6/21/15, 9:21 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: There is an ad on television that has the actors from the TV show "Dukes of Hazzard" once again driving in their iconic orange car "The General Lee."

They are being chased down country roads, just like the good ole days.

Except the new ads take great pains to not ever show the roof of the car, where -- in the show -- the Confederate battle Flag was depicted.

If they showed the flag nowadays some people would be angry. If they showed the roof with the flag purposefully removed other people would now be angry.

So: don't show the roof.

There is a lesson in there. About Roofs.

I am Laslo.; 6/21/15, 9:25 AM
Meade said...: Why don't South Carolinians move the stars and bars flag back to the top of their capitol dome? That's where it was when I visited Columbia in 1992.; 6/21/15, 9:29 AM
Diogenes of Sinope said...: It's up to South Carolina, of course. In 2000 they looked at this and decided on the current situation. At the time the South Carolina governor was a Democrat, their state senate Democrat majority and their state house Republican majority.; 6/21/15, 9:32 AM
Shouting Thomas said...: Meade's act is actually born of cowardice. He's a toady.

Living on a college campus, he's adopted the strategy of constantly donning his rhetorical blackface and denouncing other white men in order to avoid the Evil Eye of the censors and denouncers.

Complete coward and toady. He's been doing it for so long that he's even forgotten why he started doing it.

Don't get caught being the first man to stop clapping, comrade!; 6/21/15, 9:33 AM
Meade said...: "In 2000 they looked at this and decided on the current situation. "

Why'd they move it?; 6/21/15, 9:34 AM
Chuck said...: It is surprising to me, the number of people (good retail politicians, no doubt) who fall in line with some sort of "ban" on the Confederate battle flag. I can remember bans on all symbols of Naziism in Germany; bans on "pornography" in Boston; bans on rock 'n roll records on the radio.

Bans are always silly, and almost never work to the satisfaction of the proponents.

I'm a bit surprised that an intellectual and very well trained legal mind like Althouse's (who, incidentally, seems never afraid to go against the grain) would so readily fall in line with a ban-the-flag sentiment.

I PRESUME that is her sentiment, from the phraseology of the first poll choice; that Mitt Romney is "clearly right" in his suggestion to ban the flag.

There's a final legalistic question. Are we talking simply about a removal of the flag from any/all state grounds in South Carolina? The old "state action" question, as it were? If so, then these lines from the David French column that I posted above seem apposite:

"There’s a disturbing habit on the Left of trying to find the position that renders one especially virtuous in their identity politics culture — regardless of its real-world impact — and then sneering from that high ground at all who dissent...

"If the goal of our shared civic experience was the avoidance of pain, then we’d take down that flag. But that’s of course not the goal. Rather, we use history to understand our nation in all its complexity — acknowledging uncomfortable realities and learning difficult truths...
"But there are other difficult truths. Among them, when the war began, it was not explicitly a war to end slavery. Indeed, had the Union quickly accomplished its war aims, slavery would have endured, at least for a time. When hundreds of thousands of southern men took up arms (most of them non-slave-owning), many of them fought with the explicit belief that they were standing in the shoes of the Founding Fathers, men who’d exercised their own right of self-determination to separate from the mother Country. Others simply saw an invading army marching into their state — into their towns and across their farms — and chose to resist.
"It is telling that the South’s chosen, enduring symbol of the Confederacy wasn’t the flag of the Confederate States of America — the slave state itself — but the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, Robert E. Lee’s army. Lee was the reluctant Confederate, the brilliant commander, the man who called slavery a “moral and political evil,” and the architect — by his example — of much of the reconciliation between North and South. His virtue grew in the retelling — and modern historians still argue about his true character — but the symbolism was clear. If the South was to rebuild, it would rebuild under Lee’s banner...

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420060/confederate-flag-should-stay-charleston-shooting-debate; 6/21/15, 9:36 AM
Owen said...: Chuck: thanks for that reference. French's point seems accurate. This agitation is another example of the Left never letting a crisis go to waste.; 6/21/15, 9:36 AM
Meade said...: "This agitation is another example of the Left never letting a crisis go to waste."

Mitt Romney and Scott Walker: Leftists. Who knew?; 6/21/15, 9:40 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "In 2000 they looked at this and decided on the current situation."

And now it's 2015 and they're having to look at it again. I hope they reach the right answer, which is the one that Romney articulated. I do think that too much pressure from the outside could energize the flag-lovers, and perhaps Walker is thinking about that. (Mainly, Walker is staying on message and never getting dragged off course by questions. That's what I mean by "classic Walker."); 6/21/15, 9:43 AM
Michael K said...: Romney showed why he was not a good candidate although he would be a great president. Better to stay our of leftist identity posturing. Walker is right.; 6/21/15, 9:44 AM
Michael K said...: "I hope they reach the right answer"

No, you mean the left answer.; 6/21/15, 9:45 AM
Ann Althouse said...: @Chuck There is absolutely no talk of banning the flag here.

We're talking about government speech and the government deciding what it wants to say. It should choose not to display the Confederate flag. To do so would not be banning the flag!

Please keep the legal issues straight. If you do, you might not be so surprised about what other people are recommending.; 6/21/15, 9:45 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Romney showed why he was not a good candidate although he would be a great president. Better to stay our of leftist identity posturing. Walker is right."

Unfortunately, Romney is too good for us. It's very sad.; 6/21/15, 9:47 AM
Hagar said...: I did my miltary service in the mid-fities, and "Dixie" and "The Battle Hymn of the Republic, etc. were regional things, more like a standing joke, and the southern black guys joined as lustily in rooting for "Dixie" as any other southerners versus the "Battle Hymn" and the northerners, black or white.

This crap about "symbols of slavery" and wounded feelings, etc. is made up by the gentry MSM, trying to stir up what trouble they can while trumpeting their own innocense.; 6/21/15, 9:54 AM
Lyle said...: I think the flag should be removed. No government anywhere in the South should be flying it and I am a white southerner saying this. Nevertheless, Walker's point is well taken and I don't like the knee jerk reaction to remove it, because focusing on the flag is to misunderstand Dylann Roof and what he did.

Mississippi somehow has more elected African-American public officials today despite the Confederate battle flag being part of their state flag. What the flag strongly symbolized once has now been overcome. One extremist loon can't overthrow this change.; 6/21/15, 9:57 AM
Lyle said...: Hagar,

The Confederates didn't have black soldiers who fought valiantly for the Confederacy. They had lots of their black slaves in the army helping to support the army, but they did not fight out of choice. The handful of "blacks" who did volunteer were of mixed race and held themselves out as white. Some of them were even too "colored" for their white comrades and were taken of the rolls and made drivers, cooks, or musicians.

Blacks overwhelmingly sided with the United States and fought valiantly against the Confederacy, like at Port Hudson, Milliken's Bend, Fort Wagner, Petersburg, etc.; 6/21/15, 10:03 AM
William said...: Many southerners fought honorably and bravely, but it was a bad cause and a stupid cause. I suppose the same could be said about the many Germans and Russians who died in both world wars. Well at least they don't compound the futility of their ancestors' sacrifices with some stubborn pride in the banner that proclaimed the most idiotic part of their identity........That said, it seems to me that this is the work of a lone lunatic. It should not serve as an excuse to luxuriate in feelings of racial superiority to white southerners.; 6/21/15, 10:11 AM
Jeff said...: Walker is right. There is absolutely no reason why presidential candidates should be asked about this, as it is not a federal issue. If I lived in South Carolina, I would want the flag taken down, but I don't live there so it's none of my business.

I would much rather somebody asked Walker about the NSA, about software patents, monetary policy, taxes, spending, immigration, defense or any of hundreds of other federal issues. This constant playing "gotcha" with hot-button issues that are no concern of the federal government is just distracting, and it does make you wonder why so many people evidently want us distracted.; 6/21/15, 10:13 AM
Fritz said...: We must immediately call on Hillary Clinton to repudiate the Clinton's celebration of the Confederacy when they were co-governors of Arkanasas:

http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/20/flashback-as-governor-bill-clinton-honored-confederacy-on-arkansas-flag/; 6/21/15, 10:16 AM
damikesc said...: A lot of my state remember that the flag on a monument on the grounds was what the NAACP specifically requested. The press acts as if it is on the Capitol. It isnt. Hasn't been for years.

We're not as willing to constantly give inches or miles indefinitely.; 6/21/15, 10:21 AM
mccullough said...: Should all confederate Civil War memorials be removed? Aren't they all the same as the flag? If they take down the flag they need to rip out the memorial it flies over. Our leaders are not serious people. They are reactionaries.

Let the flag stay or rip up all the memorials. Also rip down the Jefferson Memorial and the university of Virginia since he was a slave owner. Washington owned slaves too so rip down the obelisk. FDR imprisoned Napanese Americans so rip up his memorial too because it's an insult to Asian Americans. Take him off the dime tomorrow since they should not have to see that tyrant's face on a coin.; 6/21/15, 10:23 AM
mccullough said...: Mott Romney is a flip flopping weasel. I don't recall him saying to remove the flag from the memorial on the state grounds during the 2012 South Carolina primaries. What a coward. Just like he didn't serve in Vietnam when his peers did. He wasn't a good enough man to be President. Draft dodging phony.; 6/21/15, 10:31 AM
jimbino said...: The answer to bad flags is more flags.

Just wait for the 6 Roman Catholics and 3 Jews on SCOTUS to declare the Confederate flag an "act of 'ceremonial patriotism' protected from Establishment Clause scrutiny chiefly because it has lost through familiarity any significant political content." [Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow]; 6/21/15, 10:36 AM
bbkingfish said...: Great poll. Very revealing.; 6/21/15, 10:39 AM
Lyle said...: mccullough,

No, not all Confederate monuments should be removed. The Confederate battle flag, however, was the chosen symbol or racial segregation in the 1950s and 1960s. It was waved by state governments and citizens wanting to keep white only schools, white only bathrooms, and white only restaurants. It should not be flown, other than for historical purposes, by any state or local government. Monuments should stay because they are now part of history and should stay up to remind people of the Lost Cause movement. And of course Confederate military monuments should remain as a memory to those soldiers.

We need to remember the history of the flag and fly it with other historical flags, but flying it by itself to honor only it is to honor racial segregation. That is wrong.; 6/21/15, 10:39 AM
mccullough said...: Lyle,

They lost. Only the victors get memorials. Memorials only remind the blacks that these states fought to keep slavery and they are honoring the sacrifices of those who fought to maintain slavery. This is demeaning to the descendants of slaves.

Quit trying to compromise. Rip up the memorials or be quiet. There is no fence straddling on this issue.; 6/21/15, 10:44 AM
TosaGuy said...: There are too many Northerners who want to keep fighting the Civil War.; 6/21/15, 10:45 AM
mccullough said...: Lyle,

The flag has flown over the memorial since 2000. So it is part of the memorial. The memorial is on the grounds of the state capitol.

So either the flag is not about the 50s and 60s, or the memorial itself is tainted by the flag's association with white only lunch counters. But since you and Mitt are the deciders on the semiotics please explain why the memorial they flag has flown over should t be ripped up since there are plenty of blacks who believe it should be.; 6/21/15, 10:49 AM
Original Mike said...: "This constant playing "gotcha" with hot-button issues that are no concern of the federal government is just distracting, and it does make you wonder why so many people evidently want us distracted."

Yes. Balance the budget, deal with illegal immigration, fix the mess ObamaCare created, and then we can talk about a flag.; 6/21/15, 10:50 AM
mccullough said...: Tisa Guy,

I agree. Many of them are from New England, which is the region with the fewest percentage of blacks and the lowest enlistment rate. The South has the highest of both.

Mitt was the draft dodging governor of one of those New England states. He's a coward.; 6/21/15, 10:52 AM
jimbino said...: The real memorials to Amerikan racism are the national parks, forests, monuments and BLM lands, where you almost never see a Black face, though our Blacks, along with all taxpayers, pay to acquire and maintain them.; 6/21/15, 10:52 AM
Lorenzo said...: Walker's response vs. Romney's is a hint why Romney couldn't get elected and Walker might have a chance.; 6/21/15, 10:52 AM
Fernandinande said...: "Remove it now to honor #Charleston victims."

How lame.

I'm confused: the SC state flag is a crescent moon and a palm tree, which offends me because it looks islamic.

Are they flying the SC state flag or the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee, which appears in the MSM pictures.; 6/21/15, 10:56 AM
Lyle said...: mccullough,

With respect, you are ignorant. The flag is about the 50's and 60's in South Carolina because that is when the flag was first flown over the state capitol. It was put up there by Dixiecrats who wanted the Federal government to butt out of racial segregation in South Carolina. It was flown out of a desire to maintain racial segregation. The flag was only moved recently to its new location.

It's one thing to place a small Confederate or Confederate battle flag by a grave, but it's another for state or local government to honor a Confederate flag because of the historical symbolism of the flag.

Me and Mitt Romney are not the deciders of anything. We're both simply giving voice to why we think state and local governments shouldn't be honoring the Confederate battle flag. Mitt and I are as much citizens of our states and country as you are. Don't do you dare tell me or anyone else what we can say.; 6/21/15, 10:56 AM
Michael said...: Walker is a man too careful, too anxious to be president. The answer is clearly that the flag should be removed from the public square. Period. I believe there is one flag flying in SC near the Capitol. Take it down.

That said, I would not want the next steps to be the removal of all statues of Confederates that remain in public spaces. We can move from doing the right thing with the flag to an ISIL themed desecration if we are not very careful.

Republicans waste every chance to garner the black vote. Any of the dozens of candidates could have announced their candidacy at an historically black college. It would have been a small but meaningful gesture.; 6/21/15, 10:56 AM
mccullough said...: Our whole country is land taken from the Native Americans. Instead of changing sports mascots let's give them the land back and leave.

That would be a tremendous sacrifice and not a symbolic gesture. So we will morally preen about symbolic gestures because righteous indignation is easy and fulfilling but doing the right thing is very hard. So we get diuchebags like Obama and Romney and editorials from the local paper in Manhattan run into the ground by a trust fund baby.; 6/21/15, 10:59 AM
Lyle said...: mccullough,

"the blacks"... really? It's 2015 man. There is time enough for you yet to understand the country you live in. I hope before you leave this world you will be able to accomplish that.; 6/21/15, 11:00 AM
Lyle said...: The demise of Native American civilization doesn't negate slavery and segregation, or the memory of these things.; 6/21/15, 11:01 AM
mccullough said...: Michael,

In other words lets do the easy thing and take down the flag but not the hard thing and tear down the memorial honoring the sacrifice of those who fought to maintain slavery. If five black South Carolinians want the memorial removed for the same reason as the flag, should it be removed? 10, 100? What is the number that would make you change your mind to make your position consistent instead of some half baked compromise?; 6/21/15, 11:02 AM
Anonymous said...: From the perspective of method, I like Walker's approach better, that the time to decide policy is not in the emotionally-charged immediate aftermath of something terrible.

But on the other hand, this is a flag, and as it's neither the national nor state flag, it should only be flown rarely by the SC government when the context is appropriate, e.g. at a Confederate war-dead memorial. Romney takes the easy way out here, but Republicans should know this kind of gotcha question about symbols of a rebellion defeated 150 years ago will come up and have answers ready for it.; 6/21/15, 11:04 AM
Ironclad said...: Let's declare everything about the South to be racist - ban flags, change city, school and street names of Confederates, and place everyone (white) there in reeducation camps until they can spout the Ta-Nashi Coates anthem of reparations - will that possibly be enough to satisfy the crowd that demands "diversity" in every other aspect of life? No wonder people push back - because the one thing you learn is that you can't satisfy the mob.

Walker is right to just pass this one - "leadership" isn't about alienating groups - politics is about trying to get them to work together. I see more of that than the rush to be the most "virtuous" here.

Funny that the history books never mention that the North had no problem letting the South finance the Revolutionary War, but that might be an "inconvenient truth" that diminishes the halo of holiness in the progressive view of history.; 6/21/15, 11:04 AM
Fernandinande said...: jimbino said...
The real memorials to Amerikan racism are the national parks, forests, monuments and BLM lands, where you almost never see a Black face, though our Blacks, along with all taxpayers, pay to acquire and maintain them.

That's really stupid.

The real memorials to Amerikan racism are inner-city slums where you almost never see a White face - because they're quite likely to be victimized or harassed - though our Whites, long with all taxpayers, pay to create and maintain them.; 6/21/15, 11:05 AM
mccullough said...: Lyle,

My lexicon is mocking your wishy washy morality. The "demise" of the Native Americans? Is that really how you talk and think. Give your property back to them or shut up. The land you inhabit was taken from them. Say you are fine with that or give it back.

Say rip up the memorials to the confederate dead or shut up. Your worldview is the easy weaselly one of Mitt Romney and Obama. It requires no sacrifice. Just tweet something silly and go golfing or to one of your 7 Summer houses.

You'll move on to some other facebook issue next week.; 6/21/15, 11:07 AM
Hagar said...: The Civil War was, and was not, about slavery.

Thomas Jefferson once wrote to a Congressman: "For any Virginian to recognize a foreign legislature [i.e., the Congress of the United States] is an act of treason against the state [i.e., Virginia], and whosoever shall do any act under the colour of the authority of a foreign legislature - whether by signing [bank] notes, issuing or passing them, acting as a director, cashier, or any other office relating to it shall be adjudged guilty of high treason & suffer death accordingly."

Abraham Lincoln stated that his only aim was to save the Union, and if he could do that by freeing all the slaves, he would do that; if it was necessary to keep them all in bondage, he would do that, and if he could do it by freeing some and not others, he would do that.

However, in hindsight, once rebellion broke out, it was all or nothing, and if the yankees would fight, they were going to win, and slavery would be done for.
And yes, they were willing to fight, a lot of them against slavery, but all for the Union.; 6/21/15, 11:10 AM
mccullough said...: Lyle,

You and Mitt can say whatever you want. You are weasels on this issue. 15 years is not "recently" either. Nice try to weasel that in.; 6/21/15, 11:13 AM
Hagar said...: At this time, it is about votes, not feelings.
"White" people just have found some other ways to exploit "Black" people.; 6/21/15, 11:14 AM
Lyle said...: mccullough,

I don't you and I can have a rational discussion about this. What you're saying just doesn't make sense or follow reason. I hope you can get your mind together before it's too late.; 6/21/15, 11:14 AM
Diogenes of Sinope said...: I am not saying what the underlying roots causes in Charleston’s Emanuel AME Church mass murder are, we do not know, yet.

The whole issue about the South Carolina flag is a waste of time, taking the flag down will have no measurable affect on racism or mass murder. We should be having a debate about how we deal with the dangerous known mentally ill since mental illness is a significant known underlying cause of mass murder.; 6/21/15, 11:16 AM
Hagar said...: Young men with existing mental problems should not pop pills.; 6/21/15, 11:18 AM
Big Mike said...: Maybe South Carolina should fly the South Carolina Secession flag as a compromise, instead of the Confederate battle flag. Or perhaps the Stars and Bars, which unlike the battle ensign had the advantage of being an official flag of the Confederate State of America.

Though, frankly, after what Sherman's troops did to South Carolina after they started marching north from Savannah, I'm hard pressed to wonder why the state wants to be reminded of it all.; 6/21/15, 11:21 AM
mccullough said...: Lyle,

The stars and bars was first raised above the SC Capitol in 1962 for the centennial of Civil War. It was moved in 2000 to where's it is now, on the grounds of the Capitol next to the memorial for the Conferdedate dead.

15 years it has been there, after 38 years on the Capitol.

Keep spouting your nonsense and joining in the chorus of the cheap and easy moral view.

Rip up the whole memorial or leave it, flag and all. You want to pick and choose what's easy, like Mitt.; 6/21/15, 11:25 AM
Chuck said...: @Chuck There is absolutely no talk of banning the flag here.
We're talking about government speech and the government deciding what it wants to say. It should choose not to display the Confederate flag. To do so would not be banning the flag!
Please keep the legal issues straight. If you do, you might not be so surprised about what other people are recommending.

Well I did anticipate all of that, Professor. I queried: There's a final legalistic question. Are we talking simply about a removal of the flag from any/all state grounds in South Carolina? The old "state action" question, as it were?

The David French column-link does supply an answer there; the Confederate battle flag very arguably --almost obviously-- represents southern military heritage and not political heritage or any particular slavery sentiment.

But I'll just bet that South Carolinians will be willing to let law profs and liberal columnists from Wisconsin decide what flags to fly on the grounds of the state capital in Columbia as soon as Madison lets South Carolinians vote on same sex marriage in the Badger state.

Anyway, I still like French's observation, that the liberal mind always needs government to "do something," and that same liberal mind needs to sneer at anyone who fails to agree with that action.; 6/21/15, 11:30 AM
mccullough said...: There is no way in a free society to prevent crazy people from killing. We all know this. Instead of acknowledging this, we come up with pretend solutions to give the illusion of control.

Our leaders use these tragedies to either push through something else they want to get through or to placate our desire for control by fixating on something like removing a flag from a confederate war memorial, which had nothing to do with the crazy killing.; 6/21/15, 11:31 AM
Big Mike said...: Maybe a history major can research the regimental flag of the 1st South Carolina volunteers, which had the distinction of being the first all-negro unit to be raised by the north (it was formed from former slaves liberated when the Union Navy took control of seaports and offshore islands early in the Civil War). People upset by the Confederate battle flag could wave it instead.; 6/21/15, 11:32 AM
Lyle said...: mcCullough,

You are ignorant. The Confederate battle flag is not the stars and bars flag. The stars and bars flag was the first national flag of the Confederacy. The Confederate battle flag, which comes in a number of designs, is the crossed blue cross on red flag with stars. That's the flag South Carolina dixiecrats put up over the South Carolina state capitol in 1961. Yes, it was put up during the centennial of the Civil War, but as a symbol of defiance to Federal intrusion into racial segregation.

You're ignorant not only about what flag you're talking about, but also the history of the flag and who has used the flag as a political symbol.

If you want to go on thinking the flag wasn't the symbol of segregation, go on and be ignorant. It's America and you are free to be as stupid and ignorant as you want to be. I hope you sort your ignorance out before you die.; 6/21/15, 11:33 AM
Big Mike said...: @mccullough, I agree.; 6/21/15, 11:34 AM
The Godfather said...: "With malice toward, with charity to all . . . ." I detect in some of the comments a bitterness and hatred toward defeated enemies long dead. Even the die-hard segregationists who exploited the Confederate flag in the 1960's are mostly dead or in their dotage. I have seen no masses of Southern "patriots" rising up in support of the execrable Roof. Leave South Carolina, with it's non-White woman governor, to deal with this local issue.; 6/21/15, 11:39 AM
Big Mike said...: @Lyle, you are correct about the Stars and Bars, but that's really a nit. I demonstrated for Civil Rights as a college student in the 1960s, so I'm fully aware of the use of the Confederate battle flag as a symbol of defiance. But you know what? The Blacks and their liberal allies won that disagreement! You'd think people would recognize that.; 6/21/15, 11:39 AM
Real American said...: Frankly, it makes no sense to me why Republicans should be defending a symbol of Democrat Party racism, hatred and treason.; 6/21/15, 11:42 AM
Lyle said...: @Big Mike,

I agree with you.; 6/21/15, 11:44 AM
traditionalguy said...: The military tradition among southern Scots-Irish is a never surrender and forever loyalist attitude. Therein lies the rub.

That south wants to rise again so it will win this time and not admit it's defeat. That will not go away.

It has become the Achilles heel of southern politics. We need to grow up and thank God we were defeated in a war to honor and defend human slavery.

The Battleflag still stirs a deep emotion among southerners that is uniquely celebrated in Gone a With the Wind. If one is taboo symbol, then so should the film be banned and the book burned.

But we have an election coming up, and that is the priority.; 6/21/15, 12:09 PM
Brando said...: The state should stop flying any flag of the rebellion--it's absurd that official government organs fly such flags these days. I get that many southerners were fighting to protect their homes, or their concept of states rights, but we have to accept they fought on the wrong side for a wrong cause. Honorable people often do--but it makes the cause no less wrong. A government body loyal to the union should not be flying a symbol of rebellion against it.

But let's also not conflate that with what happened last week--a vile hateful killer did an act of terrorism and it's absurd to think he was inspired by the fact that confederate symbols still exist in South Carolina. This guy was fringe, and the sad thing is there's no reaching those on the fringe.; 6/21/15, 12:10 PM
mccullough said...: Lyle,

Thanks for correcting me about the Stars and Bars and Confederate Battle Flag. We Yankees get them confused. You know your racist symbols well. Now rip up the memorials to the traitors killed defending slavery. Or leave them all up. But stop the weak half measures. The Yankees are coming for your confederate dead war memorials next. They symbolize honoring those who died defending slavery, and we can't have that. And you don't get to say what those memorials symbolize. We do. And once we rip them up, no one will kill anyone again. If they do, we're coming for the Ole Miss mascot after that.; 6/21/15, 12:10 PM
mccullough said...: Brando,

The war ended 150 years ago. The traitors showed up, fought, and died in every war since then. Maybe we Yankees should get over it?; 6/21/15, 12:12 PM
Jason said...: There's a Smug Front moving in from the North.; 6/21/15, 12:20 PM
Jason said...: Maybe it's time for SC and other entities to lose the CSA allusions and symbology in their flags and maybe it isn't.

But people in Wisconsin and other states that never had an invading army sack a family farm in their communities and whose understanding of the topic is so Romper Room that they don't know the difference between the Confederate Naval Jack/Flag of the Army of Tennessee/ANV Battle Flag on one hand and the 'Stars and Bars' on the other can feck right on off.; 6/21/15, 12:24 PM
Big Mike said...: @Lyle, thanks.; 6/21/15, 12:28 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: It is mainly libruls who believe the flag had something to do with this nut's massacre. Libruls mistakenly think they can fix everything with symbolic gestures that will make the librul feel good. Libruls are idiots.; 6/21/15, 12:32 PM
Brando said...: McCullough--accepting former confederates back into the fold (as we did) and letting this country's wounds heal does not mean having to honor the cause they fought for.; 6/21/15, 12:53 PM
Rusty said...: Blogger mccullough said...
Lyle,

They lost. Only the victors get memorials. Memorials only remind the blacks that these states fought to keep slavery and they are honoring the sacrifices of those who fought to maintain slavery. This is demeaning to the descendants of slaves.

Those boys were our countrymen.Most of that southern cannon fodder didn't own slaves. In many circumstances southern slaves lived better than those barefoot hillfolk that fought for the south. They fought hard and died just like their northern cousins. Let's keep their memorials. It's the least we can do to honor their memory.; 6/21/15, 12:55 PM
Gahrie said...: Do the majority of South Carolinians still defiantly wish to secede from the Union? Do the majority of South Carolinians still defiantly believe in white supremacy? Institutionalized racism? Slavery?

It is possible to support the battle flag and not be in favor of any of those things.

bigot.; 6/21/15, 1:00 PM
Gahrie said...: Why'd they move it?

Because assholes like you called them racists.; 6/21/15, 1:01 PM
Michael K said...: "it's absurd that official government organs fly such flags these days. "

I have to agree here. The flag should be flown at Confederate military cemeteries and monuments. I think the ban on personal license plates is silly. Those plates are issued for fund raising by states.

It is odd that a state capitol would fly the flag.; 6/21/15, 1:03 PM
Michael said...: Where did all that cotton raised on the bent backs of slaves end up? Did the slave owners sell cotton back and forth to each other and if so why. Or did they have ready and eager buyers in the north, buyers whose ancestors ride their high horses even today.

It is a topic best avoided in the quiet halls of Smugville and Sanctimonia where self congratulations are the theme of every day.

Why did the Yankees continue to buy and ship this product of slavery when it would have been a simple matter to end the need for slaves by stopping the economy.; 6/21/15, 1:07 PM
Meade said...: "It is possible to support the battle flag and not be in favor of any of those things."

For an individual, sure, and perhaps you could demonstrate for us how that can be done. But for a state government?; 6/21/15, 1:11 PM
richard mcenroe said...: If you want to ban a universally-visible symbol of white slave-owning racism, ban the Democratic Party.; 6/21/15, 1:14 PM
Meade said...: Why'd they move it?

"Because assholes like you called them racists."

What do assholes like me need to call them for them to take it down altogether?; 6/21/15, 1:16 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: Maybe we should hear from the only black man in the Senate, Senator Tim Scott from ......South Carolina.; 6/21/15, 1:18 PM
Anonymous said...: mccullough - Nicely done.

Michael: That said, I would not want the next steps to be the removal of all statues of Confederates that remain in public spaces. We can move from doing the right thing with the flag to an ISIL themed desecration if we are not very careful.

Sorry, but the Red Guard is now out of the control of well-intentioned sane people. The cadres are not going to be happy until history has been sterilized and reduced to a jejune morality play.

Well, they won't be happy even then, because they're infantile tantrum machines who don't even understand what it is that they're so unhappy about. But they'll destroy a great deal along the way. They already have.; 6/21/15, 1:19 PM
Alex said...: Oh, I wish I was in the land of cotton,
Old times there are not forgotten.
Look away, look away, look away Dixie Land!
In Dixie's Land, where I was born in,
early on one frosty mornin'.
Look away, look away, look away Dixie Land!
I wish I was in Dixie, Hooray! Hooray!
In Dixie's Land I'll take my stand,
to live and die in Dixie.
Away, away, away down south in Dixie!
Away, away, away down south in Dixie!
There's buckwheat cakes and Injun batter,
Makes you fat or a little fatter.
Look away! Look away! Look away! Dixie Land
Then hoe it down and scratch your gravel,
To Dixie's Land I'm bound to travel.
Look away! Look away! Look away! Dixie Land
I wish I was in Dixie, Hooray! Hooray!
In Dixie's Land I'll take my stand,
to live and die in Dixie.
Away, away, away down south in Dixie!
Away, away, away down south in Dixie!; 6/21/15, 1:22 PM
richard mcenroe said...: AJ Lynch liberals don't believe that any more than they believe anything else. It's just another opportunity to score points.; 6/21/15, 1:22 PM
Gahrie said...: What do assholes like me need to call them for them to take it down altogether?

Subjects, instead of citizens, which apparently you are fine with.

Why can't you just leave them the fuck alone and get on with your life?

Oh, because then you can't feel smugly superior.; 6/21/15, 1:23 PM
Alex said...: I bleed Dixie today.; 6/21/15, 1:24 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Leave the Nazi flag up while the Allies bury their dead, says the Vizier of Cheese-Land. Let the debate on whether to lower it proceed in a few weeks, in order to "honor" the dead Allied Troops.

Republicans are a total bunch of Fuckheads. Crypto Neo-Confederate Fuckheads, to boot.; 6/21/15, 1:25 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Alex bleeds reptile blood, actually. Cold reptile blood.; 6/21/15, 1:25 PM
Meade said...: "If you want to ban a universally-visible symbol of white slave-owning racism, ban the Democratic Party."

Exactly what is it about the Democratic Party that symbolizes slave-owning racism? We are talking about today's Democratic Party and not the pre-1948 Democratic Party, right?; 6/21/15, 1:26 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Why can't you just leave them the fuck alone and get on with your life?

This sentiment sounds familiar. Same one used by Northern Copperhead Democrats to argue for an abandonment of any Union fight in the Civil War.

Y'all are the embodiment of the Old Confederacy. Exposing the Southern Strategy isn't even necessary, anymore. You're all essentially unadulterated neo-Confederates or at least anti-Union sympathizers.

Which makes you traitors, punishable under Article III of the U.S. Constitution.; 6/21/15, 1:28 PM
Alex said...: Republicans are a total bunch of Fuckheads. Crypto Neo-Confederate Fuckheads, to boot.

haha, you lost.; 6/21/15, 1:28 PM
Alex said...: R&B - time to get back on the meds.; 6/21/15, 1:28 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Exactly what is it about the Democratic Party that symbolizes slave-owning racism? We are talking about today's Democratic Party and not the pre-1948 Democratic Party, right?

You might as well be talking to a wall. Ignoring the difference is essential to their thought "process".; 6/21/15, 1:29 PM
Anonymous said...: Jason: There's a Smug Front moving in from the North.

Typical seasonal weather pattern. Seems worse lately though. Global warming?; 6/21/15, 1:29 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: haha, you lost.

Laughing and making the thought of a "game" out of killing a bunch of innocent churchgoers, I see.

That would explain the state of where your life's at, wouldn't it?; 6/21/15, 1:32 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: There's a Smug Front moving in from the North.

Because there's obviously nothing arrogant about wanting to preserve the pride of a secessionist region's legacy 150 years ago, at the expense of any respect for all the enslaved and the dead who fought to free them.

And nothing arrogant at all about ignorantly pretending that the politics of 1948 and 2015 are the same.; 6/21/15, 1:34 PM
khesanh0802 said...: @Rusty 1255: Well said. We know that both Union and Confederate veterans had great respect for each other. There were brave men on both sides and they should be honored for that bravery. As it turned out they were all Americans.; 6/21/15, 1:35 PM
khesanh0802 said...: As for Roof, he is insane like so many other mass murderers of late.; 6/21/15, 1:36 PM
Lyle said...: There are few, if any, people who can accurately be described as "neo-Confederates". Why? Because to be a neo-Confederate you would have to be advocating for white supremacist based slavery. Few, if any, people who defend the Confederate battle flag in South Carolina advocate for slavery. You can call them Confederate heritagists or Confederate battle flag apologists, but not "neo-Confederates".

If the Confederates were all about slavery, which they were, than "neo-Confederates" have to also be all about slavery.; 6/21/15, 1:37 PM
traditionalguy said...: I heard that The SAE fraternity has offered to donate new Confederste flags as a community outreach and membership drive. But they are having trouble with the outreach to citizens with slave colored skin. You just can't please some people.; 6/21/15, 1:37 PM
Meade said...: "Subjects, instead of citizens, which apparently you are fine with."

Fine. Whatever works.

Subjects of the otherwise honorable state of South Carolina, vote to voluntarily take down from your state capitol that symbol of slavery, white supremacy, racism, treason, disrespect for the U.S. constitution, disrespect for Americans who died to defend the the nation — the United States of America, terror, segregation, murder, and Dylan Roof.; 6/21/15, 1:39 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: In many circumstances southern slaves lived better than those barefoot hillfolk that fought for the south.

Wow.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you the best case for the intellectual debasement of the Republican Party, RUSTY!

Let's hear it for him.

Also, let's make a slave of him. Apparently it's not such a bad thing. Fighting against it ain't nuthin' better than fightin' for it.

One question… what actual skills does he possess?

Obviously not the sort that would have made him the sort of "house Negro" slave whose lot in life he wants you to believe that he envied so much.; 6/21/15, 1:39 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: @Rusty 1255: Well said. We know that both Union and Confederate veterans had great respect for each other.

Correction. NOT for each other's CAUSES. Flags - including the Stars and Bars - represent causes, not people.

Get it together.

To confuse causes with people is not very well said at all. It's very poorly said. A very poor confusion of how English vocabulary works.; 6/21/15, 1:41 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: "Those boys were our countrymen.Most of that southern cannon fodder didn't own slaves. In many circumstances southern slaves lived better than those barefoot hillfolk that fought for the south. They fought hard and died just like their northern cousins. Let's keep their memorials. It's the least we can do to honor their memory."

Timothy McVeigh was our countryman. Most boys like him didn't own slaves. In many circumstances the people he hated lived better than kids like him, who identified and sympathized with his cause. They fought hard and died just like their law-abiding cousins. Let's keep a memorial to him and to what he did in Oklahoma. It's the least we can do to honor his memory.; 6/21/15, 1:44 PM
Hagar said...: R&B just likes to fling feces.; 6/21/15, 1:49 PM
Anonymous said...: khesanh0802: We know that both Union and Confederate veterans had great respect for each other. There were brave men on both sides and they should be honored for that bravery. As it turned out they were all Americans.

Indeed. Is there any incident in American history more moving than the ceremony after the surrender at Appomattox, as described by Joshua Chamberlain?; 6/21/15, 1:52 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Oh gosh, Hagar. It really does have a way of sticking to guys like you though, doesn't it?

The Confederacy was a shitty cause. If S.C. was admitted back into the Union, it's time it had better God damned well behave like it. If it doesn't then draw up an amendment for ratification outlining a LAWFUL secessionist process, get it passed, and exit the fucking Union and all the economic and political benefits that come with it.

These people need to grow the F*&^ UP ALREADY! ENOUGH.; 6/21/15, 1:52 PM
Alex said...: R&B - I'm referring to the fact you were the first one to resort to name-calling. You lost! Now turn off your computer and go play outside with the other special needs children.; 6/21/15, 1:54 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Alex - go away. No doubt you know much about playtime and adult children. Make an actual point and stop relying on ad hominem (regardless of "names") and reciting DIxie lyrics. Everyone knows your stupid sympathies. No one cares. It's not a poll. It's a place for making a point. And mine is simple: If the Old South wants to celebrate secessionism, they can draw up an amendment for ratification, get it passed, and exit the Union. The point that they didn't do it in a legal way the first time doesn't mean that we stop finding the disastrous atrocity they put us through of maintaining the original legal framework reckless and horrifying. And the fact that they feel a need to honor that illegality, continuously, persistently, no matter how many redneck racist hack murderers it inspires - abominable.

Next time you speak to me you make a point. You'd better make a goddamned point or I'll tear you asunder and wrest you apart from this blog's body politic faster than you can say Appommattox.; 6/21/15, 2:01 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Actually yes - there was a poll, but that's not what the comments were for, presumably.

Put the Dixie lyrics (written by Northerners, ironically enough) in the poll's comments. Put all your comments there, in fact.; 6/21/15, 2:06 PM
Alex said...: Look away, look away, Dixie land....

I bleed Dixie!

Fuck Ritmo!

Fuck race hustlers!

Hail the 2nd Amendment!

Down with Obambi!

Go Scotty in 2016!; 6/21/15, 2:11 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Funny that the history books never mention that the North had no problem letting the South finance the Revolutionary War, but that might be an "inconvenient truth" that diminishes the halo of holiness in the progressive view of history.

The FRENCH financed that war.

The South might have had better resources in an agrarian country, but industrialization changed all that.

Although there's some virtue in an agrarian life, it's questionable how that's maintained with slaves in an era of universal abolition, at the expense of any industrial development, and by pretending that a Constitution (which is a contract, after all - Lincoln as a lawyer knew very well what he needed to do) has a pretend "exit-clause" if you simply feel that your fragile pride calls for it.

If your facts are different on that, feel free to lay them out. Regardless, it's interesting to see someone at least find some use in a historical reference for what they're arguing. Whether that overturns what we know of the South's reliance on "King Cotton" as some form of economic salvation or not is doubtful, but I'm always up for learning a fact or two from someone who actually has any respect for them.

Thanks -; 6/21/15, 2:14 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Look away, look away, Dixie land….

As I said, Northerners wrote that (and what cause sings songs written by its enemies?). But it does illustrate what a nice, useless little parrot you are.; 6/21/15, 2:15 PM
Gahrie said...: I'm neither southern, or possess a battle flag.

I just believe in live and let live, and don't insist that everyone live exactly the way I think they should. If the battle flag didn't exist, it would just be some other pretense to tell other people how to live and to fell better about yourself.; 6/21/15, 2:16 PM
Alex said...: R&B - I'll keep whistlin' Dixie because you hate it. That fills me with joy.; 6/21/15, 2:16 PM
Alex said...: I'm gonna watch Dukes of Hazard.; 6/21/15, 2:17 PM
Alex said...: I love it when Boss Hog is chowing down and gets interrupted by Rosco because dem Duke boys are stirrin' up trouble again!

Look away, look away, Dixie land....; 6/21/15, 2:20 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Lincoln liked "Dixie", but unlike you he knew the difference between a piece of music and a cause. You OTOH have no such capability.

You don't even have a brain.

And I'll bet you "Dukes of Hazzard" was produced by Northerners who took a script by a couple of Kentucky moonshine types who found more fun and "artistic merit" in romanticizing making scofflaws of good ole boys illegally brewing bourbon rather than fighting to keep people enslaved - like you would do.

But it's a good thing you're too stupid to know the difference.

Run along. I'll bet you even have the lunchbox set.; 6/21/15, 2:30 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: …because you hate it. That fills me with joy.

Guys like you are easier to incapacitate than you think. You don't even know what you're fighting for, let alone how to fight for it.; 6/21/15, 2:32 PM
Fernandinande said...: Meade said...
Exactly what is it about the Democratic Party that symbolizes slave-owning racism? We are talking about today's Democratic Party and not the pre-1948 Democratic Party, right?

This doesn't address "slave-owning", but almost all murdered blacks - probably > 90% - are murdered by Democrats.; 6/21/15, 2:39 PM
Alex said...: R&B - despite your best attempts, you will not start a race war. Nor will you succeed at getting more gun restrictions, or disabling Scott Walker's campaign. It's all for nothing dude, sucking Cenk's cock.; 6/21/15, 2:42 PM
Alex said...: The interesting thing about this is had the parishioners been armed and trained to be vigilant about using guns there would have been no massacre. Roof would have been shot dead after killing one person at the most and the liberals would be deprived of the MASSACRE which is much more politically HELPFUL to them.

Did you hear that Dem voters - you're more useful DEAD than alive for the party. I heard it from Ritmo!; 6/21/15, 2:47 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: The interesting thing about this is had the parishioners been armed and trained to be vigilant about using guns there would have been no massacre.

Lol. Oh, so it's about who should be forced to fight the better GUN war, not about the wrongness of taking issue with all the things that fed Dylan Roof's race war.

I get it now.

You really are one of the stupidest people on here. Did you remember to breathe, today? How many times did you come close to forgetting?

I bet you remembered to eat, though! What a lovely little piglet your parents raised in you! Now squeal! And go "Oink!" Come on now, do it!

You're the cutest pink little piggie piglet ever bred that close to the Fucksiana State Fair Grounds!

Does your little bed of slop need to be made up? What a cute, cute, CUTE little piglet!

Roll around in your crap, be hypnotized by the tv! You'll be off to slaughter in no time!

Cootchie cootchie cootchie coo!; 6/21/15, 2:55 PM
Anonymous said...: The flag, which has been flown for 50 years now, is a terrible symbol. Seriously.

Can't you see what it has done to black people in South Carolina? Mass shootings. Church burnings. Lynchings.

Hell, I bet if you did a population study, you'd see that wonderful, minority loving states like New York have lost population to the hateful southern states like South Carolina. I'm pretty sure only white people live in South Carolina now. All because the flag has been flying as a racist symbol for all these years.; 6/21/15, 2:57 PM
Anonymous said...: Meade said...
Exactly what is it about the Democratic Party that symbolizes slave-owning racism? We are talking about today's Democratic Party and not the pre-1948 Democratic Party, right?

This is funny.

We are talking about today's Democrat party, but yesterdays flag?

If you want to talk about today's Democrat party, then you need to talk about today's flag and what it means to people in the south today. Not a century ago.

If you want to talk about yesterday's flag, then you need to talk about yesterdays Democrat party.

Be consistent.; 6/21/15, 2:59 PM
Michael said...: R&B

Why did your people keep buying the cotton that they knew was the product of slave labor?; 6/21/15, 3:03 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Fifty-year old little black ladies compelled to be armed guards in their own church. That's what Piggie Alex says MUST BE THE SOLUTION!

Make them into their own private security force. Even when they're in church. Even on a Sunday.

There's no time that can be taken off when it comes to the necessary vigilance required to be taken against the murderous racism that Alex likes instigating.

But, some people like to live their lives, though. Even though Alex wants them to feel like this is still the age of lynching, when a bunch of murders can take place at any moment, these ladies just wanted to worship and pray at church on a Sunday. Maybe even wear some nice clothes - not battle fatigues. And certainly not holsters for God knows what kind of weaponry he believes they should have been carrying into a House of God.

But that's Alex for you. Any way to drag another worn-out "dicksucking" talking point into things, no matter how ridiculously it has no relation at all to the topic.

What can be said? Alex knows what he knows. And it's all spoon-fed to him by O'Reilly.

Piggies like him can't think on their own. It's just not possible.; 6/21/15, 3:03 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Why did your people keep buying the cotton that they knew was the product of slave labor?

I didn't have any "people" in here before 1865.

But keep diverting. The fact that you assumed as much gives me a good idea of what "your people" were doing then.; 6/21/15, 3:04 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: If you were gunned down in a church while worshipping unarmed it's your own damn fault! says Alex.

What a guy. Of course, he's not bothered about the fact that no one listens to him. He doesn't even understand why.; 6/21/15, 3:07 PM
Michael said...: R&B

You are a white northerner. You slime were happy to buy the cheap slave produced cotton for your mills and export. Your people, northerners, could have stopped at any time but what could be better than have cheap products with no guilt and a slice of sanctimony for free.

The whole north was a co-conspirator as awash in the horror as the slave owner or the blacksmith a town away.

The fact that you weren't there is as irrelevant as your ravings.

They are just now uncovering some of the graffiti in English churches that was whitewashed over in the mad puritanical rush to remove vestiges of the Roman church.; 6/21/15, 3:13 PM
exhelodrvr1 said...: And if Israel were to go away, there would be no fighting in the Middle East.; 6/21/15, 3:15 PM
Swifty Quick said...: Yes, it's another stake through the heart of dual federalism, but if that's one's issue, this is not the hill to die on. Not anymore. Maybe never was. What with the history of race relations in this country, that is. So go find another hill. Does immigration work?; 6/21/15, 3:15 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Hey Mr. Michael Fancy-Pants - trashmouth all you want. If you want to secede, draw up a fucking amendment, first.

But that might make you responsible to the people for what you want.

And you can't do that. Slimeballs like you prefer sniping from the behind-the-scenes.

No, the North that crushed your hillbilly ancestors wasn't a conspirator in anything. Unlike you, they took a stand and paid dearly for it. But with a better outcome than the one you wished for and still wish for today.

They didn't get others to do their fighting for them, either.

No go and slither back into your cave and leave the internets alone, slave-loving creep.; 6/21/15, 3:17 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: How many slave-women do you think were raped by Great-Great-Great-Grand-pappy Michael?

A great many, I'd reckon.

Say hi to yer kinfolk for us, Michael!

It might involve going to the other side of the tracks, and that scares the shit out of Michael (and there is a lot of shit in him!)

But you should do it, anyway. For the sake of Southern comity and hospitality!

Don't let that whole Northern wealth thing go to your bloated head, now!

That might implicate Wall Street. And everything Northern is BAAAAAAAAD!!!!! Remember?; 6/21/15, 3:20 PM
machine said...: time to burn the GOP flag...; 6/21/15, 3:24 PM
Michael said...: R&B

Glad you mentioned Wall Street. You northerners used Wall Street To raise the cash for the cheap slave produced cotton that enriched the bankers and the north.

You could have stopped it at any time but were too greedy and cowardly.

You looked the other way.

If you were better educated you would see the connection and if more curious would know of the various ways your people aided in the shipment and finance of human beings.; 6/21/15, 3:27 PM
Alex said...: oh boy Ritmo... you are one sick puppy.; 6/21/15, 3:31 PM
Alex said...: Heaven forbid churchgoers acknowledge reality and armed themselves accordingly. Like they do in Texas.

But liberals don't live in reality, they live in fantasy-land!; 6/21/15, 3:31 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Who are "my people?"

Yours were here, in the South, raping slaves apparently. You seem to have a very personal (I'd say "investment", but then you'd get confused) er, issue, in the matter.

Antebellum economics are a stupid issue to raise vis-a-vis complicity. You can go all the way back to the 3/5ths compromise, if you want.

I go back to the point of secession and insurrection, when war was inevitable.

That's when you guys really made your stance known.

Bitching about intertwined, interstate commerce prior to that point is just a way for you to throw a tantrum about doing the wrong and making a martial stance out of the issue. Killing half a million, and still pretending you were right 150 years later.

But since when does a guy like you take responsibility for anything?

Oh yeah. Rhetorical question. And an oxymoron.; 6/21/15, 3:32 PM
Michael said...: R&B

You have been told, surely, that your delusions are holding you back professionally. At least I hope so.

You ascribe positions to others that they do not hold and launch your insane attacks against theme it's the same passion as if they actually held them

Psychosis is complex. Treatment generally not successful.; 6/21/15, 3:33 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Like they do in Texas.

But liberals don't live in reality, they live in fantasy-land!

If everything outside of Texas is "fantasy-land" then let's hear it for all 49 wonderful little fantasy lands!

You probably don't even live in Texas.

You probably don't even know where you live.

Does your mommy sew home address tags on your coat so that the nice adult stranger can help you find your way home when you get lost?; 6/21/15, 3:34 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: That was boring, Michael.

Surely you have more entertaining ways of evading the point.

They might not be as entertaining as the ways you have of evading your taxes. But then, we are talking about human issues, not just financial figures.; 6/21/15, 3:35 PM
Michael said...: R&B

Case in point. You appear to believe I lived 150 years ago but insist your people were in the clear prior to 1865.; 6/21/15, 3:35 PM
Alex said...: I do buy into the idea that Ritmo is suffering from race psychosis.; 6/21/15, 3:39 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: They weren't even in the U.S., you dipshit!

The only thing I'd hold you complicit in now is if you're not at the forefront of retiring the Stars and Bars - especially flying at state grounds.

If you are, then you're fine. If not, then piss off.

That's the only point I have to make. Your ancient slave-raping grandpappies are about as relevant as antebellum economics, or forebears that weren't even in America.

If you want to play that way, then ok. But you seem to have backed off. Wise choice.

Let's move on to the relevant issue. Either you think state-approval of the Stars and Bars is a problem, or not.

I think it is. That's all that I care to discuss with you about this.

So either go there, or leave it alone.

Later -; 6/21/15, 3:41 PM
Alex said...: R&B...

I get it now.

You really are one of the stupidest people on here. Did you remember to breathe, today? How many times did you come close to forgetting?

I bet you remembered to eat, though! What a lovely little piglet your parents raised in you! Now squeal! And go "Oink!" Come on now, do it!

You're the cutest pink little piggie piglet ever bred that close to the Fucksiana State Fair Grounds!

Does your little bed of slop need to be made up? What a cute, cute, CUTE little piglet!

Roll around in your crap, be hypnotized by the tv! You'll be off to slaughter in no time!

Cootchie cootchie cootchie coo!

Rubber room... meet Ritmo.; 6/21/15, 3:44 PM
William said...: Just as a matter of curiousity, did the display of the Confederate flag have anything to do with the motivation of this shooter? Did the fraudulent "hands up, don't shoot" narrative have anything to do with the motivation of the lunatic who recently murdered two cops? Which one has the greater probability? Which one has the greater probability of being preached about?.....I recently looked up my family history and checked out my DNA with Ancestry.com. Both my Jewish and Anglo-Saxon DNA are a result of my foremothers history off domestic service.......Workng class whites in the 19th century were not that far out of serfdom and indentured servitude. They had a visceral repugnance towards slavery. It was a trap door that they themselves might fall through if left open. They were plenty racist, but they were anti slavery.......Sally Hemmings served with Jefferson in Paris. She had the option of unilaterally declaring herself emancipated and staying on in Paris. Was her slavery in any way voluntary? We chose the best available options in this, the best of all possible worlds.; 6/21/15, 3:45 PM
Michael said...: R&B

It doesn't matter that they weren't in the U.S., they settled in the north and fostered in their son the deviant idea that he was better than others because of the geography of his birth. They are as culpable as a slave owner. Ask Coates. Ask Crack.

You might bother to read my post on the topic. Above. Find it.

Meanwhile, why did they keep buying the cotton? Why?; 6/21/15, 3:51 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Michael - did your ancestors live in the antebellum South or not?

Cut the crap. You want to identify with the enemy of the U.S., go ahead and be a poser and say you do on account of geographic "loyalty" (which is treasonous) alone.

But if your stake is familial, just say so. It would at least have the accidental virtue (as you are a virtueless person) of being honest.

I am not claiming a geographic loyalty. I am claiming a U.S. loyalty.

Unless you are a traitor, or have butthurt feelings about your family, then you would understand that and have no problem with it.

Robert E. Lee didn't. But then, he was an honorable person. You're just an opportunistic douchebag. Who says and does anything that he thinks he can get away with.; 6/21/15, 3:57 PM
Michael said...: R&B

You should really seek help.; 6/21/15, 4:00 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Meanwhile, why did they keep buying the cotton? Why?

I think people generally bought cotton for the purpose of wearing clothes. Are you saying you knew of people who went nekkid?

You really are a virtue-free person, aren't you? It's the only sort of freedom you understand.

Shorter Michael: Either EVERYONE IS EQUALLY TO BLAME (However peripherally) OR NO ONE IS TO BLAME!

I'll bet you'll spend at least close to a decade in prison on a securities fraud charge someday.

Make sure the orange jumpsuit isn't made of cotton.; 6/21/15, 4:02 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: You should really seek help.

Ok. Come help me than, Michael.

Don't blame me if I back out of taking your help on account of you over-charging for it. "Your people" have a habit of doing that.

Over-charging for the cost of other people's freedom and constitutional integrity, as well. Is Southern pride worth half a million dead and all that went with it?

Boy oh boy. Life without slaves sure makes it hard to make a buck, doesn't it Michael?; 6/21/15, 4:05 PM
Michael said...: R&B

Cotton was cheap because of slave labor. It could have been grown without slave labor but it would have been terribly expensive.

You don't mind buying clothes made with child labor in sweatshops in Central America?; 6/21/15, 4:06 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: You don't mind buying clothes made with child labor in sweatshops in Central America?

I check the tags. None of my clothing is made there.

See. What you do is you make the mistake of thinking that everyone is as value-less as you and makes everything as much about as expediency as you do.

You do this, apparently, because you know of no other way to cope with your lack of conscience, as a sociopath.

So you justify your existence by saying, "Everyone's as much an expedient, opportunistic, selfish bastard as me! So there!"

But Michael- the problem is, they aren't. Actually, not everyone is as dismissive of others as you are.

What will you do about that? Maybe adjust your understanding of reality? Or does your understanding of reality require a belief in the inherent sociopathy of others - as a way of justifying your own existence?

When you force me to reason through these likelihoods, that's what makes me conclude that a future life in an orange jumpsuit is very possible for you.

You really do seem to have no values, at all. Except for the generic ones (easier to copy and cop to) that everyone around you has: Loyalty to region and loyalty to God.

Keep it up. Your facade is better constructed than most. But still very, very imperfect.

You must wish I was as stupid as most people you know. Or as lazy.

But you forget: I'm not from the South. We have a longer experience of actually, effectively dealing with your kind up here. That's what happens when you don't delay economic development.; 6/21/15, 4:14 PM
Rusty said...: Cotton was cheap because of slave labor. It could have been grown without slave labor but it would have been terribly expensive.

By the time the civil war rolled around the north was already finding cheaper sources for cotton to feed its mills. Cotton and tobacco were leeching the usefulness out of the land requiring plantation owners to open up new land, but new land was getting scarce.

In many slave holding areas of the south white people were thin on the ground. So how do you get your slaves, which outnumber you 10 or more to one, to go along?
You treat them like family. And that is the culture of the south that northerners don't understand today.; 6/21/15, 4:21 PM
wildswan said...: What about putting up a memorial to the 1st South Carolina regiment - the black regiment? also on the C capital grounds? And flying their regimental flag? and letting people put that on their license plate? They were actually the first black regiment formed.
The regimental colonel was Thomas Wentworth Higginson who was a editor of the Atlantic and a friend of Emily Dickinson. He wrote a history of his involvement with regiment - it is online. Army Life in Black Regiment.
The regiment was formed from the South Carolina Gullah people and the story of these people is incredibly interesting. They were rice farmers in Africa and they were seized in order to use their understanding of how to grow rice in tidewater swamps. They created a gigantic hydraulic system 150 miles long and 50 miles wide, the biggest civil engineering project in the colonial and immediately post colonial era. See Black Rice. This ability to grow rice made the South Carolina planters the richest group in the US prior to the Civil War. And the skill was confined to the Gullah so they could not be freed without ruining the richest group in America. Hence SC was on a hair trigger about abolitionism and hence it started the Civil War. (Last sentence is my personal theory)

Anyhow what about raising a flag, the flag of the First South Carolina Volunteers?; 6/21/15, 4:27 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: So how do you get your slaves, which outnumber you 10 or more to one, to go along?
You treat them like family. And that is the culture of the south that northerners don't understand today.

Nor would we want to. If being raped by the massa (with 35% of African American DNA descending from the Irish and Scotch and Anglo masters holding them) was the price, it would have been too high.

So yeah, go and brag about that "familial" relationship. We know how sick it really is. You think the masters treated their bastard mulatto slave children to anything that you'd think their "relationship" warranted? Of course not! He kept them with the slave mama to be raised in servitude.

But then, you seem to believe this was a great arrangement, and envied the house slaves.

That's how warped someone has to be to really make a positive argument for that sort of deprivation of basic freedom.

And you're still doing it -- TODAY. While everyone else of your ilk pretends there's some problem when reminded of how the past is living with us.

You need to account for your past, man. If being raped and then forced to raise the rape-baby in just as deplorable a condition of rights-deprived servitude is wrong, then the whole institution is wrong. Abominably wrong, in fact.

To say that the niceness of some slaveowners vindicates the institution is as warped as saying that the niceness of a few prison guards makes it ok to wrongfully imprison someone or to force them into life in a police state.

The fact that you don't see how un-American this is is wretched, but an unfortunately important lesson - given how typical it is.

But at least it makes you feel better. And that's the REALLY important thing here. It really is all about you.; 6/21/15, 4:29 PM
wildswan said...: And the two side by side indicates reconciliation.; 6/21/15, 4:32 PM
Michael said...: R&B

Calm down, dude, your fantasies are taking hold. And they seem to get darker as you get drunker

You seem quite insane.; 6/21/15, 4:38 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Mikey -

If you hate history, then don't discuss or argue points of history with me.

Go away and live in the safe, happy fantasy you've created. Sometimes reality's darker than Gone with the Wind.; 6/21/15, 5:40 PM
rcocean said...: "Romney showed why he was not a good candidate although he would be a great president. Better to stay our of leftist identity posturing. Walker is right."

Bullshit. Romney was always a leftist on social issues. He was the pro-choice Governor of Massachusetts. He's just another Establishment Republican who said whatever he thought would get him elected. Once he got in office he would've written off anything he said as "Campaign rhetoric". He would would've been Bush-I with a Mormon twist. He was harsher on this Republican opponents then he was on Obama, probably because he secretly agreed with Obama more.; 6/21/15, 6:01 PM
iowan2 said...: Another thread overtaken by the rantings of someone not connected with reality.; 6/21/15, 6:35 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Let me know which parts of reality I got wrong, then - Mr. Confederacy Apologist.; 6/21/15, 7:28 PM
Alex said...: President Walker are the 2 words that are going to make Ritmo lose the last bits of his sanity. I will cheer that moment with some Chivas Regal.; 6/21/15, 7:42 PM
khesanh0802 said...: @Angelyne 1:52 Absolutely. I choke up every time I read descriptions of the surrender. Would that some of the commenters here could be as respectful of those they disagree with.; 6/21/15, 7:54 PM
pious agnostic said...: So, does R&B blow up and attempt to dominate all the comment threads here at Althouse?; 6/21/15, 7:55 PM
I Callahan said...: What do assholes like me need to call them for them to take it down altogether?

What makes you think you need to do anything? You live in Wisconsin. How is it any of your business in any way?

Someone else said something about a smug front coming in from the north. I see it now...; 6/21/15, 8:22 PM
I Callahan said...: Laughing and making the thought of a "game" out of killing a bunch of innocent churchgoers, I see.

Right, because the flag made this looney walk into a church and kill a bunch of people. And Alex somehow thinks the same way.

For a guy who writes as intelligently as you do, you are as stupid as a bag of doorknobs.; 6/21/15, 8:25 PM
Moneyrunner said...: "So, does R&B blow up and attempt to dominate all the comment threads here at Althouse?"

Because he's Ann's alter ego. He's her id; the things she's not allowed to say. There was another racist that camped on Ann's blog some time ago, "the crack MC." That was Ann as a tran-racial trans-gender creature.

She draws them like flies to honey. You will not see that kind of hate on Glenn Reynolds blog. he doesn't invite it.

You have to remember that Ann is an Obama fan, the Obama of her imagination. The Magic Negro Obama.; 6/21/15, 8:30 PM
chickelit said...: mr said...
So, does R&B blow up and attempt to dominate all the comment threads here at Althouse?

Actually he's pretty tame compared to an old departed commenter named Crack EmCee. That guy could go on and on in every thread about race--for days and days on end! Every topic became about race for that guy.

R&B can be happy and upbeat if you get him talking about Hillary.; 6/21/15, 8:33 PM
chickelit said...: Because he's Ann's alter ego. He's her id; the things she's not allowed to say. There was another racist that camped on Ann's blog some time ago, "the crack MC." That was Ann as a tran-racial trans-gender creature.

LOL and very astute, moneyrunner!; 6/21/15, 8:35 PM
Moneyrunner said...: My favorite part about the Obama era is all the racial healing. That kumbaya feeling of all getting along. Nobody telling you what to do. Live and let live. The peace and tranquility on college campi amidst the cries of rape victims. They are the ones they were waiting for. Yes you can. MMMM, mmmm, mmmm. Ah, good times.; 6/21/15, 8:38 PM
chickelit said...: You have to remember that Ann is an Obama fan, the Obama of her imagination. The Magic Negro Obama.

I think she believed that Obama was going to be the Prince or the Jimi Hendrix of politics -- a real cross-racial uniter. But in Obama's case, the talent just wasn't there -- he was too green and too leftwing. That's an extremely hard thing for some Obama diehards to admit because it's like John Hammond backing a dud.; 6/21/15, 8:41 PM
Known Unknown said...: I don't agree with that particular flag flying there. However, it's for South Carolinans to decide its fate.; 6/21/15, 8:54 PM
Jason said...: R&B: another historically illiterate douchebag who is so bone ignorant he doesn't know what the Stars and Bars is. And the cloud of smug gets denser and denser.; 6/21/15, 9:06 PM
Rusty said...: Rhythm and Balls said...
So how do you get your slaves, which outnumber you 10 or more to one, to go along?
You treat them like family. And that is the culture of the south that northerners don't understand today.

Nor would we want to. If being raped by the massa (with 35% of African American DNA descending from the Irish and Scotch and Anglo masters holding them) was the price, it would have been too high.

So yeah, go and brag about that "familial" relationship. We know how sick it really is. You think the masters treated their bastard mulatto slave children to anything that you'd think their "relationship" warranted? Of course not! He kept them with the slave mama to be raised in servitude.

But then, you seem to believe this was a great arrangement, and envied the house slaves.

That's how warped someone has to be to really make a positive argument for that sort of deprivation of basic freedom.

I merely made a historical observation , ritmo, based on fact. The cartoon you have running in your head made something completely different out of it with the the material you pulled out of your ass.
Take a breath. have a drink. Read a book.; 6/21/15, 9:11 PM
Meade said...: EMD said...
"I don't agree with that particular flag flying there. However, it's for South Carolinans to decide its fate."

Concise, clear, and correct.; 6/21/15, 9:14 PM
Jason said...: Hey, don't look at us Irish. Cromwell's boys were shipping us of as slaves to the Indies in the 1600s and we didn't even migrate en mass to the US until the Famine. Slavery was here when we got here and we were mostly working as farm hands, rail workers and indentured servants. We didn't own plantations. The historically illiterate Ritmo is confusing us with the Scots-Irish. Different group of people.

I wouldn't expect Ritmo to know that, though. His grasp of history is about libtard deep.; 6/21/15, 9:21 PM
Jason said...: I wonder what percentage of US flagged ships in the slave transport business were built, captained and crewed by Marylanders, New Yorkers and New englanders.

Probably a lot.; 6/21/15, 9:27 PM
Swifty Quick said...: Moneyrunner @8:30 said...
"So, does R&B blow up and attempt to dominate all the comment threads here at Althouse?"

Because he's Ann's alter ego. He's her id; the things she's not allowed to say.

Few of the commenters here get it, but a big part of the raison d'etre for this blog is not to tolerate conservatives, but to laugh at them, so long as they don't realize it.; 6/21/15, 9:29 PM
Swifty Quick said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/21/15, 9:29 PM
Jason said...: Yes, yes. That's why garage mahal is so esteemed and respected here.; 6/21/15, 9:57 PM
traditionalguy said...: Best advice is not to debate Rhythm and Balls. He is smarter than you are by several levels of erudition.; 6/21/15, 10:21 PM
Unknown said...: Unfortunately the Confederate Battle Flag is symmetrical, or I'd suggest flying it upside-down. Can't get much more in distress than a defeated army and a conquered nation / state / area in rebellion.; 6/21/15, 11:44 PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: It's the difference between a man who's running for office and a man who isn't. Rather than chastise Walker for dodging questions, I applaud him for his measured and judicious answers. He's a lot like Obama that way, that is, his skill in avoiding saying anything that can be used against him infuriates the opposition.; 6/21/15, 11:57 PM
Fen said...: Rhythm and Balls: Laughing and making the thought of a "game" out of killing a bunch of innocent churchgoers, I see.

Says the putz using 9 black bodies as props to advance his political narrative.; 6/22/15, 12:22 AM
furious_a said...: Meade said...
EWe are talking about today's Democratic Party and not the pre-1948 Democratic Party, right?

Check your calendar, Meade. Al Gore's father voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964; 6/22/15, 1:04 AM
AllenS said...: News flash from 1987 Arkansas!

Bill Clinton signed Act 116 of the 1987 Regular Session --

"The blue star above the word ARKANSAS is to commemorate the Confederate States of America."

Typical racist liberal Democrat.; 6/22/15, 8:13 AM
Meade said...: "Check your calendar, Meade. Al Gore's father voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 "

"Bill Clinton signed Act 116 of the 1987 Regular Session --"

Thanks. Can you guys find any other exceptions proving the rule?; 6/22/15, 9:19 AM
AllenS said...: It would be a waste of time to prove any kind of rule to someone who thinks like this:

Meade said...
... This must be why President Grant, by executive order, reinstated slavery in all 50 states and ordered the Confederate battle flag be flown full mast over the White House.; 6/22/15, 9:50 AM
James said...: AllenS, nice to see you commenting again.; 6/22/15, 10:47 AM