Althouse: I've watched the trailer for the new Caitlin Jenner TV show, and I have 3 questions.

June 3, 2015

I've watched the trailer for the new Caitlin Jenner TV show, and I have 3 questions.

(Auto-playing video appears below, after the "more.")

1. "You start learning kinda all of the pressure women are under all the time about their appearance." That's your voice-over as you apply heavy makeup. Aren't you putting pressure on women to wear makeup? Whatever happened to the natural look? Well, one thing that happened is that the Kardashian family has been participating in pushing the extremely heavily made-up standard of feminine beauty. Why, if you purport to empathize with what women feel pressured to do are you becoming part of the pressure? How about some critique of excessive makeup? How about relieving the pressure?!

2. On finally getting a makeup professional — you say with a smile — "What a difference!" So because you have the time and money, you are able to get the heavy makeup look, and you are smirking at the viewer — presumably, a woman who is under all of that pressure, and really, by your lights, will probably never get it right. Are you pleased to be about to beat women at their game — a game you participate in defining — or do you actually empathize with women?

3. In the second half of the clip, you're talking and getting filmed while driving. You recently killed a woman by driving inattentively. Shouldn't you not film while driving?!

139 comments:

Louis said...: Most people are not good people.; 6/3/15, 3:02 PM
Jim said...: If I put a fiberglass body on a beetle that looks like a Porsche Speedster, it is not a Porsche. The DNA is just not there. Just like Bruce. It's XY all the way baby.; 6/3/15, 3:11 PM
Brando said...: I had no idea about the Jenner killing a woman thing. In all the talk about his sex change no one mentions this? I assume no criminal charges were filed because reasons?

Though it would be nice if the world could deprive the Kardashians of the attention that they so desperately thrive on. Same with Donald Trump. Let's find some people worthy of our attention instead.; 6/3/15, 3:14 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Have you ever looked at anybody's chromosomes? That isn't the way people relate to other people.

But, anyway, this post raises some specific issues. I would appreciate comments that address these things and not the same material hashed over in previous posts.; 6/3/15, 3:19 PM
Sebastian said...: Question your forgot to add: "Or are you just trying to illustrate what insanity looks like?"; 6/3/15, 3:20 PM
Matt said...: I didn't think it would need to be stated but for a man to pass as a woman, copious amounts of makeup are required. Additionally, as evident by the Vanity Fair cover, heavy use of Photoshop is sometimes required too.; 6/3/15, 3:23 PM
Ann Althouse said...: By the way, Jenner is trying to avoid having to pay damages in the wrongful death case. As his lawyers are arguing, the dead woman's adult children "were well-off and successful and financially independent... They did not depend on their elderly stepmother for food, clothing and shelter, or for any necessities of life."

(And the investigation is ongoing. No charges yet. The accident happened in February.); 6/3/15, 3:24 PM
Kyzer SoSay said...: 1) Bruce Jenner has no interest in releiving that pressure. He wants to play dress-up, and put on makeup, and feel pretty, because sadly he's not yet been safely enclosed in a padded cell.

2) Of course he is pleased to beat women at their own game. He probably wishes he could give birth so he could train up and make it look easy. Who would impregnate such a crazy, disfigured individual, is another story. He's got money, and he's got crazy, and that's all you need to know.

3) The person he killed was one of the little people. Of course he's going to keep talking and filming while driving. It's all about him dontchaknow?

There, succinct and correct answers to all 3 questions. Now can we start speculating about how sick this individual is?; 6/3/15, 3:25 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "I didn't think it would need to be stated but for a man to pass as a woman, copious amounts of makeup are required."

If that is true, then how should we feel about the present-day beauty convention of very heavy makeup?

1. It's great, because it increases equality, as it allows more individuals to choose to present as female.

2. Women who look feminine without makeup (or with only light makeup) should be flaunting their natural looks. They should be more active in defining the beauty standard, making it a game they are more likely to win.; 6/3/15, 3:28 PM
CatherineM said...: Ann - the police never filed charges because they have yet to say who is at fault so who are you to accuse him of driving inattentively? We're you there? In the clip where you accuse him of recklessness he is a passenger (first he was driving a golf cart, then he was a passengerin a car). I am surprised you would be so presumptuous about his guilt.

As for the damages suit, don't you think those step children of the dead woman jumping the gone? He has a right to defend himself.; 6/3/15, 3:31 PM
Ann Althouse said...: I think the mental illness meme was already discussed, and I made my point about it yesterday: "Gender is like religion — extremely meaningful to people in ways that work without necessary alignment to what is true and usually not a good topic for argument, not unless you've built a relationship of trust with your interlocutor." I don't think it's necessary to spout off about how those who believe in religion are delusional every time the topic of religion comes up. At some point it's jackassery.

I'm trying to raise the subject of empathy. Those of you who want to pose again as unempathetic toward those who believe they are transgendered are stepping ll over from the subject I am trying to raise, which is Jenner's lack of empathy toward women and the heavy-makeup standard of beauty promoted by the Kardashian family. Go back to yesterday's post if you want to talk about yesterday's subject.; 6/3/15, 3:33 PM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: Professor,

IANAL, but my impression was that in wrongful death cases establishing the future earnings of the deceased is standard procedure. And thus, the older the deceased is the less money you are going to get from the lawsuit. That is if you get any.

As for the whole makeup thing, its like Beyonce and feminism. How you actually act is immaterial as long as you utter the correct shibboleths.; 6/3/15, 3:35 PM
damikesc said...: His. name. isn't. Caitlyn.

It's not that hard to change your name legally. His name is Bruce. If he wants to be Caitlyn, he can put on his big boy pants and go change it legally.

That's your voice-over as you apply heavy makeup. Aren't you putting pressure on women to wear makeup? Whatever happened to the natural look? Well, one thing that happened is that the Kardashian family has been participating in pushing the extremely heavily made-up standard of feminine beauty. Why, if you purport to empathize with what women feel pressured to do are you becoming part of the pressure? How about some critique of excessive makeup? How about relieving the pressure?!

The pressure for heavy make-up comes from women, not men. Women are the ones who will gripe if a woman isn't made up properly. Most guys just do not care.

In the second half of the clip, you're talking and getting filmed while driving. You recently killed a woman by driving inattentively. Shouldn't you not film while driving?!

If he isn't holding the camera himself, it's no worse than half a dozen other things people do while driving.

By the way, Jenner is trying to avoid having to pay damages in the wrongful death case. As his lawyers are arguing, the dead woman's adult children "were well-off and successful and financially independent... They did not depend on their elderly stepmother for food, clothing and shelter, or for any necessities of life."

If a driver killed, say, Kris Jenner --- he would, I bet, advise his daughters to sue. Even though they fit that definition well.

If that is true, then how should we feel about the present-day beauty convention of very heavy makeup?

1. It's great, because it increases equality, as it allows more individuals to choose to present as female.

2. Women who look feminine without makeup (or with only light makeup) should be flaunting their natural looks. They should be more active in defining the beauty standard, making it a game they are more likely to win.

As said earlier, that pressure comes from women. Just like women's fashion comes from women. Men aren't the ones judging women harshly on what they dress.; 6/3/15, 3:35 PM
Ann Althouse said...: And I'm not asserting that all religion is delusional. It's just that people believe things and we don't continually talk about how they're nutty to believe something that we think can't possibly be true. Are Mormons crazy? I don't know, but it's jackassery to go there every time the subject comes up.; 6/3/15, 3:36 PM
damikesc said...: As for the whole makeup thing, its like Beyonce and feminism. How you actually act is immaterial as long as you utter the correct shibboleths.

No joke. Hillary, who got into power by allowing her husband to fuck anything with a pulse (and he wasn't too demanding on the pulse thing, either), is a feminist hero while Sarah Palin, who became a governor on her own (her husband certainly didn't set her up in office) and fought her own party is a joke to feminists.; 6/3/15, 3:36 PM
Rosalyn C. said...: I read that Bruce had joined an exclusive country club, back in the day, which has much nicer dining facilities for men which are not open to women. What happens when Caitlyn finds out it really is a man's world? This might be fun to watch to see if she goes hardcore feminist. Seems like Jenner's entire concept of femininity has been based on the obsession of being attractive to men. Will she do what Martine Rothblatt did, which was to go non gender specific?; 6/3/15, 3:37 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Ann - the police never filed charges because they have yet to say who is at fault so who are you to accuse him of driving inattentively?"

I am someone who watched the video of the accident several times and read analysis of the evidence.; 6/3/15, 3:37 PM
damikesc said...: Are Mormons crazy? I don't know, but it's jackassery to go there every time the subject comes up.

Given that I've not met an unpleasant Mormon, they are far less crazy than the "normal" folks out there.; 6/3/15, 3:37 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "As for the damages suit, don't you think those step children of the dead woman jumping the gone? He has a right to defend himself."

He's rich. The woman died. Just settle. That would be ethical. Maybe the offspring are asking for too much and this ritual of threatening maybe to give nothing at all is part of getting to a reasonable number.

But the truth is, you don't make every legal argument you can. Some legal arguments are detrimental to your larger interests, such as your reputation as an ethical, empathetic person.; 6/3/15, 3:40 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "It's not that hard to change your name legally. His name is Bruce. If he wants to be Caitlyn, he can put on his big boy pants and go change it legally."

Many people adopt a stage name. You can call yourself whatever you want. The legal name change can be done if you want a legal name change. Does my name need to be legally changed to Meade for me to choose to call myself Mrs. Meade when and if I want? Do you even know whether my legal name is Ann Althouse or Ann Meade? It's like the chromosomes business. That's not the level on which people relate to other people.; 6/3/15, 3:43 PM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: "But the truth is, you don't make every legal argument you can. Some legal arguments are detrimental to your larger interests, such as your reputation as an ethical, empathetic person."

Maybe he isn't all that ethical or empathetic? Perhaps in real life he makes that Potter fellow from "Its a Wonderful Life" look like Mother Theresa?

I don't recall any rules stating that being transgendered makes you a saint.; 6/3/15, 3:46 PM
SteveBrooklineMA said...: Very few drivers would be able to stop in time if the car ahead stopped on a dime, say by plowing into the back of a third car. Stopping distance at 40 mph is 120 feet. Very few drivers stick to the speed limit either. Jenner may have been driving inattentively (not stopping in time) and recklessly (over the speed limit), but how worked up are we going to get about something done so commonly?; 6/3/15, 3:47 PM
trumpintroublenow said...: I always thought that if you rear end someone you are at fault. That is the position the insurance companies take; 6/3/15, 3:47 PM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: "It's like the chromosomes business. That's not the level on which people relate to other people."

It is during the teenage years.; 6/3/15, 3:48 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "In the clip where you accuse him of recklessness he is a passenger (first he was driving a golf cart, then he was a passengerin a car). I am surprised you would be so presumptuous about his guilt."

We see Jenner's hands on the wheel as Jenner is talking! Of course Jenner is driving. We're certainly led to feel that Jenner is driving the entire time, even if Jenner might be not driving some of the time. I've watched the whole clip at least 5 times.

And I didn't "accuse him of recklessness." That may be implied, but "accuse" is a strong word. I'm more saying it's insensitive for a person who just killed a woman while driving to be tooling around bullshitting. Did the woman who died find her true self as a dead person?; 6/3/15, 3:49 PM
damikesc said...: Many people adopt a stage name. You can call yourself whatever you want. The legal name change can be done if you want a legal name change. Does my name need to be legally changed to Meade for me to choose to call myself Mrs. Meade when and if I want?

He's not professing to be playing a character and he isn't trying to conceal an identity that has been quite well known publicly for a very long time. He says this is WHO he is. There's a dramatic difference in requirements to honor this. If it's who you are, then you have to do some work to make it so.

If you said "Hey, call me Bob now", I doubt anybody would take you seriously and few would go along with it. I will call Bradley Manning "Chelsea" because, as idiotic as it is, he DID change his name. So, it's his name legally and I'll go along with it. I won't call him a woman because he categorically isn't one, but he has a feminine name. So be it.

This isn't a "stage" name. This is a man who wants to play dress up and wants to as little as humanly possible to "live" his "lifestyle". He's Bruce Jenner. Nothing more. Nothing different.

Do you even know whether my legal name is Ann Althouse or Ann Meade?

No. It has no impact on my life and I don't see why I'd be expected to care. If you're legally Ann Althouse, awesome. You built something of a legacy with that name and losing it would be rough. If you're legally Ann Meade, awesome. You changed your name to be the same as the man you love (and my childhood best friend's last name was Meade and he was a rather cool guy as well). Either are suitable arrangements and have been for many years. You're not going on TV and saying "I'm Ann Murray. Really. Trust me" either.; 6/3/15, 3:50 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Given that I've not met an unpleasant Mormon, they are far less crazy than the "normal" folks out there."

Which is my point: "Gender is like religion — extremely meaningful to people in ways that work without necessary alignment to what is true and usually not a good topic for argument, not unless you've built a relationship of trust with your interlocutor."

Being Mormon is works very well for many people. We're talking about ideas and beliefs and feelings about the most fundamental aspects of life, and people find their own way, and we're nearly always respectful of that as long as the person lives a good enough life, staying out of trouble, being productive, and taking care of himself and his family.; 6/3/15, 3:53 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "This isn't a "stage" name. This is a man who wants to play dress up and wants to as little as humanly possible to "live" his "lifestyle". He's Bruce Jenner. Nothing more. Nothing different."

All the world's a stage. I think Abraham Lincoln said that.; 6/3/15, 3:55 PM
southcentralpa said...: Neither make-up (or surgery) fixes what's wrong with someone who has a body dysmorphic disorder. We're indulging someone with a serious problem, rather than giving them the therapy they need. And yes, as you point out, a prevailing fashion of heavy make-up certainly encourages this, though certainly not by design...

And if you want to discuss filming and death, are we heading to a point where they are going to film someone with Cotard delusion getting fed into a crematory while alive?

(Cotard delusion is the belief that one is a corpse); 6/3/15, 3:55 PM
Lawler Walken said...: I somehow doubt that very many women will look at Caitlyn and decide that her makeup, hair and dress are to be emulated. She's a woman of a certain age and most women of that age have a choice to make. We can go the Joan Collins route or follow the Helen Mirren approach. At least, those of us who were born women have that choice. I'm not so sure Caitlyn does. If she wants to present as a woman she has to resort to certain accoutrement to allow others to identify her as a woman. So it's spackle on the makeup and swoon about in silky flowing garments or frilly bustiers, the sort of thing.; 6/3/15, 3:56 PM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: " I'm more saying it's insensitive for a person who just killed a woman while driving to be tooling around bullshitting."

If I had accidentally killed someone, regardless of the circumstances, I would be a wreck. I would be going over the incident in my mind repeatedly, wondering what I could have done differently. I would be consumed with grief and would not be sleeping well. It would take months, if not years before I was able to forgive myself.

I wouldn't be going to photo shoots for Vanity Fair.

Once again, perhaps he just isn't a very nice person.; 6/3/15, 3:57 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "The pressure for heavy make-up comes from women, not men. Women are the ones who will gripe if a woman isn't made up properly. Most guys just do not care."

Who knows where the pressure comes from, but I wish some people would exert pressure the other way. The makeup businesses do well when women think they need a lot of products. And celebrities on stage or under TV lights need heavy makeup to look right. So some pushback from the other side is needed.

In the 60s and 70s, when the natural look was prized, men were part of it, expressing revulsion for heavy makeup. It was fake. You looked old and old-fashioned, and you were hiding the real you. Why didn't you believe in the beauty of the real you? I don't see that from men these days. Just "not caring" is so lame.

I wish there were more images of beautiful, unmade-up women out there as there used to be when I was young.

I know there was an Instagram meme recently about women showing how they looked without makeup, but I think it was more: I'm brave and bold. Not: I look better like this. Or (more heavy-handed): Women who wear makeup are hurting other women.; 6/3/15, 4:01 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: A 65-year old man, posing as a hot young woman on the cover of Vanity Fair -- requires a LOT of make-up. It is unfair.; 6/3/15, 4:01 PM
Lewis Wetzel said...: Althouse wrote: "All the world's a stage. I think Abraham Lincoln said that."
An acting gig requires an audience. In the case of Jenner, it's like being forced to watch a performance of The Aristocrats.; 6/3/15, 4:07 PM
CatherineM said...: No Ann. He is clearly behind a front seat after he says the words "it's beautiful..,". Sorry. If you want to accuse him of driving a go,f cart in the desert recklessly, ok.

He should just settle every time someone accuses him of something because he is rich and it's bad publicity? How much are they asking for? Perhaps this is a just tactic towards settlement. You don't know, but he hasn't been charged with anything yet as the investigation has not been completed. If he is guilty of recklessness then he should pay, but it's odd that they are suing before the investigation has been completed. It's also odd that it's 57 and 60 year old step children suing. Perhaps that's their tactic to get the state to recognize them as heirs. We don't know! Why speculate?

Where is the video of the accident that has you making your verdict? I can only find video after the accident.; 6/3/15, 4:09 PM
Lawler Walken said...: "I wish there were more images of beautiful, unmade-up women out there as there used to be when I was young."

I think that was mostly younger women, though. Part of throwing off the shackles of oppression placed on us (by our Mothers mostly), no bras, no girdles, no perms in our hair, no makeup, we will wear what we want, look how we want, be free. Then we grew up and figured out that some of that stuff actually made us feel better about ourselves and we could still decide for ourselves and sometimes, you know, Mom might have been right about a few things (like how not wearing a bra isn't so much a positive after a certain age/size).

I'm just happy I missed out on the 6 inch high heel thing that's happening now. It's monstrous, truly.; 6/3/15, 4:14 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "No Ann. He is clearly behind a front seat after he says the words "it's beautiful..,". Sorry. If you want to accuse him of driving a go,f cart in the desert recklessly, ok. "

Jenner's hands are on the wheel, Jenner is driving and even saying "We're off the property." Which means: 1. Jenner has a lot of property! and 2. Jenner drove off the property.

What is your point? You don't seem to want to face uncomfortable facts.; 6/3/15, 4:16 PM
MaxedOutMama said...: Ann, this guy/gal really bugs you, doesn't he?

I can't quibble with your points, but is it worth making them to give him the attention?

As for the "this is what it is like to be a woman thing", he has to at least get his dick lopped off before I want to hear it, or would do anything but laugh in his face were I subjected to this. He knows nothing about being a woman, and he is trying to become his mental stereotype of one. Most successful women that I have known don't slather on the makeup, and I haven't ever received pressure to wear more. I wear very little, if at all.

Yes, he is being offensively silly on several levels, but in a world in which daily atrocities happen, I can't get too worked up about the silliness.

I think he was at fault in the accident and should pay up. That is offensive but not silly at all, and so it is that critique that speaks to me in this post. His apparent failure to take responsibility for accidentally ending a human life is disturbing, but maybe in his quieter moments he/she does.; 6/3/15, 4:17 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Frank Zappa said it best: "What's the ugliest part of your body? I think it's your mind."; 6/3/15, 4:20 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "He should just settle every time someone accuses him of something because he is rich and it's bad publicity?"

How about just every time he kills somebody?; 6/3/15, 4:26 PM
damikesc said...: Who knows where the pressure comes from, but I wish some people would exert pressure the other way. The makeup businesses do well when women think they need a lot of products. And celebrities on stage or under TV lights need heavy makeup to look right. So some pushback from the other side is needed.

Women really don't seem to like men critiquing their make up routine. Most of us stop trying. It is what it is.

My wife seldom wears makeup and that's fine by me. She used to do it a lot in the past and always complained about what a pain it was and I had to tell her, over and over, "If I don't care if you're made up, why is it so important to you?". It wasn't the judgment of men she was worried about.

In the 60s and 70s, when the natural look was prized, men were part of it, expressing revulsion for heavy makeup. It was fake. You looked old and old-fashioned, and you were hiding the real you. Why didn't you believe in the beauty of the real you? I don't see that from men these days. Just "not caring" is so lame.

Men have been told, in quite certain terms, that our opinions are neither desired nor appreciated by most women. Men put way less pressure on women than women do (note that women's magazines tend to have female models who look borderline anorexic while men magazines have models who tend to have curves). Those complaints about how women politicians have to deal with critiques of their wardrobes while male pols don't? The people critiquing the wardrobe were all women.

You can't really blame men for this.

I worked with my wife about her make-up thing because I love my wife. But I hear co-workers gripe about their make-up routines amongst each other all of the time. Do you think I'm dumb enough to speak up? Heck no. They wouldn't want my input and I see no upside to offering it but tons and tons of downsides.

If doing something not needed makes you miserable, then it seems eminently logical to STOP doing it but women seem to dislike "mansplaining" and the like. But asking men to care when feminists have spent decades decrying us as neanderthals and the like is, honestly, a bit silly. If feminists don't respect men, then why should we lift a finger to resolve such issues that have no impact on us directly?

I wish there were more images of beautiful, unmade-up women out there as there used to be when I was young.

But, again, WHY aren't there more of those photos? It's not men stopping it. I wish there was also, but the fashion industry is irrelevant to me and, again, men's opinions are seldom appreciated on this so we just don't offer them.

We will rip guys who spend too much time grooming themselves mercilessly, however.

I know there was an Instagram meme recently about women showing how they looked without makeup, but I think it was more: I'm brave and bold. Not: I look better like this. Or (more heavy-handed): Women who wear makeup are hurting other women.

But what's "brave" and "bold" about it? Do they think men will start vomiting and screaming if they see them sans makeup?

Women spend inordinate amounts of time trying to impress other women. I don't understand why straight women do it, but they absolutely do. I can get why lesbians would, obviously.; 6/3/15, 4:27 PM
Fernandinande said...: damikesc said...
His. name. isn't. Caitlyn.

It might be - he's in show business, where fake names abound, and this nonsense is making some people a lot of money.

Most guys just do not care.

True. More than some minimal amount looks like whores or war-paint.

via Instapundit, the obvious:
"This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects."; 6/3/15, 4:28 PM
Aussie Pundit said...: Have you ever looked at anybody's chromosomes? That isn't the way people relate to other people.

The 'chromosome' thing is a way of highlighting the fact that biologically he is still a man. From a scientific point of view, "sex change" is not actually a sex change. It's just body art.; 6/3/15, 4:30 PM
Sydney said...: He knows nothing about being a woman, and he is trying to become his mental stereotype of one.
This. A thousand times this.
If it were really just a matter of being a woman "trapped in a man's body" he would cut off his penis, take hormones to lessen the facial hair and grow the breasts, and not rely on the make-up. He is just a transvestite, really.; 6/3/15, 4:34 PM
mishu said...: I know there was an Instagram meme recently about women showing how they looked without makeup, but I think it was more: I'm brave and bold. Not: I look better like this. Or (more heavy-handed): Women who wear makeup are hurting other women.

I know they did something about that with porn stars and it was more like, "Oh there goes the fantasy".; 6/3/15, 4:37 PM
PatHMV said...: The professor is most certainly correct about the legality of his name. We have become far too acquiescent in allowing the government to control our actual name. Legally, you can call yourself anything you want, as long as you don't do so for fraudulent purposes. My name is my name because that's what I use to call myself, not because the government has sanctioned it by accepting the filing of a birth certificate or a social security number application.

Now, as a practical matter, it can be a real pain in the rear to use a name other than that reflected in various government or banking records, but that's a practical problem, not a legal one.; 6/3/15, 4:38 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "You can't really blame men for this."

Did I?

I just said that men could help. I know a lot of men who help improve things that they didn't personally screw up.; 6/3/15, 4:38 PM
Matt said...: "If that is true, then how should we feel about the present-day beauty convention of very heavy makeup?"

I am the wrong person to ask about anything fashion related. I recognized when I was in high school that I was out-of-step with the norm. I wear jeans and solid-colored t-shirts bought for $5 at Wal-Mart. Though I recently branched out to shirts with stripes!

I married a woman who wears minimal make-up. I think heavy make-up is an unappealing look. *shrug* But why would anyone care what I think. I am fashionably far from the mainstream.; 6/3/15, 4:39 PM
Michael K said...: "Have you ever looked at anybody's chromosomes? That isn't the way people relate to other people."

You might usefully read some of Steven Pinker's books, especially The Blank Slate.; 6/3/15, 4:40 PM
damikesc said...: Did I?

I just said that men could help. I know a lot of men who help improve things that they didn't personally screw up.

That's the implication, yes.

And women have made it clear that they don't want our opinion. Many women have made that abundantly clear. You personally? No. But, when plenty of your co-horts have told men for decades how little our opinion means, we learn it's beneficial to not offer opinions.

Men are quite good and recognizing patterns and adjusting behavior accordingly.

Any why should men speak up when our opinion is not valued or appreciated?

How many men would help and improve things they didn't personally screw up when the people they were trying to help kept saying "We don't WANT your help?" The number would quickly approach zero. Some men are sociopaths and would ignore that, but you can't rely on sociopaths to fix the world.; 6/3/15, 4:42 PM
CatherineM said...: Ann there are 2 separate scenes in vehicles. 1st is the golf cart where he says we are going off the property. Not on a road, they are obviously off road. After that he is clearly in a car seated behind the driver as you can see the front seat in front of him.

You can't seem to admit when you are wrong.

If they charge him with killing that woman and or I see this video showing the accident I may change my mind.; 6/3/15, 4:42 PM
The Godfather said...: Is choosing your religion the same as choosing your gender?

Well, in a sense, both involve opinions. I believe in God (opinion), but X doesn't. I believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God (opinion), but X doesn't. Someone believes that Mohammed was the true Prophet of God (opinion), and I don't.

Bruce Jenner believes he's a woman named Caitlyn (opinion).

But whether you are a man or a woman is subject to test and proof. Your opinion on the subject can be proved or disproved. As I understand the current state of affairs, if you look under Caitlyn's skirt, you'll find Bruce. Even if he chooses the surgery, although you won't find Bruce, you won't find Caitlyn either.

In the case of religion, the ultimate proof comes only after death. A wrong opinion will have whatever consequences the truth imposes on the error.

On all sorts of issues, opinions can be trumped by reality.; 6/3/15, 4:42 PM
damikesc said...: The 'chromosome' thing is a way of highlighting the fact that biologically he is still a man. From a scientific point of view, "sex change" is not actually a sex change. It's just body art.

This.

Either science matters or it does not.

Male and female are quite distinct things and science is adept at figuring out which is which. If we're going to just ignore science here, where does it end?; 6/3/15, 4:43 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Men have been told, in quite certain terms, that our opinions are neither desired nor appreciated by most women... women seem to dislike "mansplaining" and the like...."

You can't communicate without mansplaining?! Come on. That's pathetic. Women want to talk to men and care about their opinion. That's obvious. We also have a word — mansplaining — that refers to a particular kind of talking that you can figure out how to avoid. I bet most women are pretty forgiving about where they draw the mansplaining line... if they like you. I think you know that.; 6/3/15, 4:43 PM
Brent said...: ". . . and we're nearly always respectful of that as long as the person lives a good enough life, staying out of trouble, being productive, and taking care of himself and his family."

Well said. It is an important reason that I, as a Mormon, support guy marriage despite my Church's slowly evolving stance. Do unto others...

Sorry to change the subject. As for Jenner, he rubs me the wrong way and your pointing out of his driving issue doesn't help. It all screams narcissistic.; 6/3/15, 4:43 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: The Prof says: "Gender is like religion — extremely meaningful to people in ways that work without necessary alignment to what is true and usually not a good topic for argument, not unless you've built a relationship of trust with your interlocutor."

Eloquent words, no doubt. But is it true?

In your analogy, Are you willing to substitute "race" for "gender?" If my 17 year old high schooler, identifies with being black, can he declare himself black, act black, dress black, and apply to colleges as a young black man, not, mind you, to benefit from Affirmative Action, perish the thought, but because it's "extremely meaningful to [him] in ways that work without necessary alignment..."; 6/3/15, 4:46 PM
Birches said...: Women who look feminine without makeup (or with only light makeup) should be flaunting their natural looks. They should be more active in defining the beauty standard, making it a game they are more likely to win.

In my world, this is the standard. I don't even own foundation. When I decide to "clean up" a little bit more, I use a BB cream (tinted moisturizer). Most of the women I meet are about the same, but then again, I live in Crunchy Colorado.; 6/3/15, 4:49 PM
The Godfather said...: Was Bruce Jenner responsible for the rear end collision that resulted in a woman's death? In order to make a challenging argument, Althouse insists that he is. What I've heard on the news is that it was a chain-reaction collision, that Jenner's car was hit from the rear and pushed forward into the plaintiffs' mother's car. Jenner hasn't been charged. The plaintiffs are accused of looking for a pay day.

None of this is remotely relevant to the question of how we respond to a supposed sex change by an elderly man who is the father and step father of a large brood of children.; 6/3/15, 4:49 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "The 'chromosome' thing is a way of highlighting the fact that biologically he is still a man. From a scientific point of view, "sex change" is not actually a sex change. It's just body art."

But why are you choosing that point of view? Why does the word "sex" mean something important to you that you need to connect to "science." I'm suggesting that individual psychology and interpersonal relationships are more important here and these things can also be studied scientifically. What matters more, chromosomes, or people feeling reasonably happy and functioning in their relations with others? I'm saying none of us every gets involved in other people's chromosomes (unless we have some professional capacity, studying chromosomes).; 6/3/15, 4:50 PM
Birches said...: Also, we can now see just how much photoshopping was done on that VF spread to make Caitlyn look desirable. All the spackle-foundation and collagen injections are not going to fix that chin line.; 6/3/15, 4:50 PM
fivewheels said...: "Women want to talk to men and care about their opinion."

#NotAllWomen

And please. You, a law professor, have no idea what a chilling effect is? No, it's true that men are not prohibited from giving opinions, but a good many women have made it very clear when it's not welcome and when it might be wise to refrain. Even if 60 percent of women do want you to speak, why open yourself up to dealing with the 40 percent who will scream "Misogynist! Mansplainer!" at you?; 6/3/15, 4:51 PM
Lawler Walken said...: "Men are quite good and recognizing patterns and adjusting behavior accordingly.

Any why should men speak up when our opinion is not valued or appreciated?"

Well at least Caitlyn isn't going to have this problem, trying to figure out what the men in her life are thinking or doing or why they are thinking or doing or not thinking or doing whatever it is they are or aren't thinking or doing. she can be her own man, offering herself opinions when she recognizes patterns and can adjust her behavior accordingly.; 6/3/15, 4:52 PM
damikesc said...: You can't communicate without mansplaining?! Come on. That's pathetic.

Saying "You really don't need to wear lots of makeup to be pretty" is defined as "mansplaining" by large swaths of feminists nowadays. It's innocuous, but because a man said it, it is verboten and "offensive". Back in the 60's and 70's, men could express an opinion and not have feminists swarm them over it. Now? Not so much.

If it requires more than passing thoughts to "help" women then, again, why should I bother? If women opt to make themselves miserable, that's on them. Dealing with my own life is difficult enough. Trying to live everybody else's life is a responsibility above what I desire to take on.

Women want to talk to men and care about their opinion.

SOME do. Far less than you realize. And, again, there's little benefit in me taking the risk on the woman being one of the lunatics. If she asks if I think she's pretty without makeup, I'll answer the question. If she doesn't, OK.

I bet most women are pretty forgiving about where they draw the mansplaining line... if they like you. I think you know that.

That's the thing. If they like you. Which men can deal with a tiny circle of women at a time. Again, I finally got my wife to realize that wearing make-up is not needed for her to be beautiful to me. I've had to deal with my nieces on their attire and makeup as well.

But co-workers? No. I don't need or want HR complaints and that is too much of a risk to take.

If it helps, I don't think you need make up. Honestly. But I also think 90%+ of women don't need make up. My opinion, clearly, isn't their opinion. Women tend to be quite beautiful when they aren't TRYING to look beautiful.; 6/3/15, 4:54 PM
damikesc said...: Was Bruce Jenner responsible for the rear end collision that resulted in a woman's death? In order to make a challenging argument, Althouse insists that he is. What I've heard on the news is that it was a chain-reaction collision, that Jenner's car was hit from the rear and pushed forward into the plaintiffs' mother's car. Jenner hasn't been charged. The plaintiffs are accused of looking for a pay day.

I thought, legally, the only option they had was to sue Bruce (since he hit them). If it's a chain reaction, Bruce would then have to sue the person who hit him and so on.

In your analogy, Are you willing to substitute "race" for "gender?" If my 17 year old high schooler, identifies with being black, can he declare himself black, act black, dress black, and apply to colleges as a young black man, not, mind you, to benefit from Affirmative Action, perish the thought, but because it's "extremely meaningful to [him] in ways that work without necessary alignment..."

I had a friend who, back in college, got in some trouble with the Registrar for saying he was African-American. His father was American and his mother was an Afrikaaner and he lives in S Africa until his teens. As he said "I'm more African than almost all of the black students here".

And please. You, a law professor, have no idea what a chilling effect is? No, it's true that men are not prohibited from giving opinions, but a good many women have made it very clear when it's not welcome and when it might be wise to refrain. Even if 60 percent of women do want you to speak, why open yourself up to dealing with the 40 percent who will scream "Misogynist! Mansplainer!" at you?

Thank you.

Do ALL women hate men's opinions? No. But enough do and have been quite vocal about it to make offering opinions a fool's errand.; 6/3/15, 4:57 PM
Fernandinande said...: Aren't you putting pressure on women to wear makeup?

He's not a woman, so why would women feel pressure?

Whatever happened to the natural look?

He doesn't like his natural look and it's not part of show business.

Why, if you purport to empathize with what women feel pressured to do are you becoming part of the pressure?

Because he's disguising himself: it's like a wig or fake mustache. Do you feel pressured to wear a fake mustache because a crazy person does so?

How about some critique of excessive makeup?

It's fine for TV, movies and photo-shoots, but in real life it's kinda bizarre.

How about relieving the pressure?!

He's an entertainer, not a therapist.

Are you pleased to be about to beat women at their game — a game you participate in defining — or do you actually empathize with women?

Can't read his mind.

Shouldn't you not film while driving?!

Probably - "Depends on conditions."; 6/3/15, 4:59 PM
Big Mike said...: I bet most women are pretty forgiving about where they draw the mansplaining line.

My first thought was that you'd lose that bet. But then I realized that almost certainly each woman draws the line in a different place. So technically you win your bet, but from a practical perspective there are no guidelines.; 6/3/15, 5:03 PM
CatherineM said...: https://www.flickr.com/gp/133757780@N02/11r587; 6/3/15, 5:11 PM
traditionalguy said...: Eye shadow is the main thing. Really heavy dark eye shadow with your long hair up in a bun.

Voila. You have mixed religious rules with make up advice. That is as it should be since religion wants to control reproduction by women, hence control marriage, hence control women's dress for sex appeal, hence control tobacco use, hence control alcohol use, etc.

So if Brucie wants to rebel a little, that's fine. Just don't make a religion out of it.; 6/3/15, 5:13 PM
richard mcenroe said...: "You recently killed a woman by driving inattentively. Shouldn't you not film while driving?!"

Shouldn't you be in jail?!; 6/3/15, 5:17 PM
Fernandinande said...: Why does the word "sex" mean something important to you that you need to connect to "science."

The regular ol' dictionary definitions of "sex" are based on physical properties; nothing esoteric or science-y. That's why They started misusing the word "gender".

I'm suggesting that individual psychology and interpersonal relationships are more important here and these things can also be studied scientifically.

Perhaps, but he's still a man, in the sense of "adult male human".

What matters more, chromosomes, or people feeling reasonably happy and functioning in their relations with others?

Feelings don't change one's sex, nor does the body art.

I tell people on the internet that I'm a Giant Frog, but nobody goes along with it. Frogs have different chromosomes.; 6/3/15, 5:28 PM
Quaestor said...: I invite everyone to do a Google image search on drag queen. I think its pretty evident that many transgender types harbor unspoken hostility to women. The makeup, the hair, the sequined gowns all yell PARODY! to the rafters. Now, a certain degree of parody can be seen as complimentary, even worshipful. When The Simpson's indulge in parody of Hitchcock thrillers or Twilight Zone episodes we laugh at the inventiveness of the parody, and at the same time we fondly acknowledge the cultural significance of these bygone and iconic objets d'art -- and that same fondness is evidently present in the intent of the producers and writes of The Simpsons. When Maggie picks up a butcher's knife and Bernard Hermann's violins commence to screech we know a parody of Psycho is under way. However, when Ru Paul dons one of his bleached blond fright wigs for the umpteenth time we know (or at least I believe) something much less affectionate than parody is going on.; 6/3/15, 5:29 PM
CatherineM said...: As for the make-up, anyone can get their make up done for free at cosmetic counters (of course you will purchase something in the end ...that's the point). Otherwise it's trial and error from the time you start experimenting with your moms makeup (and then you go to the dinner table wearing some eyeliner sample your auntie Lynn gives you for play and your father says, what the hell is that on your face?! Caitlyn missed out).

They discussed this in the Sawyer interview. He couldn't wait to wear make up all day (like most girls before allowed) and Sawyer was over it.

Bruce isn't pressuring anyone and all of the 20-something's and teenage girls I know wear little to none daily and they watch the Kardashians, Real Housewives.; 6/3/15, 5:32 PM
CatherineM said...: Yes Richard McEnroe if Jenner was charged if should be arrested, but Jenner has not been as the investigation is ongoing. Jenner has only been convicted in the court of Althouse.; 6/3/15, 5:35 PM
Quaestor said...: @ CatherineM, that looks like the back seat to me.; 6/3/15, 5:38 PM
averagejoe said...: Althouse really on the rag here, jumping down on commenters, typing in boldface, making with crazy accusations, acting indignant over innocuous commentary. LOL! Simmer down, idiot. Yes, you, idiot. You've got a shitload of nerve to upbraid anyone after you make the asinine, utterly offensive assertion equivocating gender and religion- Yeah, professor, belief in God is just like a guy looking at his penis and declaring "I am a woman." Have you been drinking?; 6/3/15, 5:46 PM
CatherineM said...: Thank you Quaestor!; 6/3/15, 5:53 PM
Carol said...: Eye shadow is the main thing. Really heavy dark eye shadow with your long hair up in a bun.

No, it's the heavy kohl eyeliner. All around the eye, thickly. Looks okay on Cher but is kinda trashy on blondes. Some guys like that. They like trashy. It looks like you're at least trying. My ex picked on me for not wearing more makeup. I did wear makeup but no eyeliner. That's hard to do right and can look hideous on a blonde if done badly.

OTOH what about all the grim grey progressive women? My those women look old. All with the short steel grey hair, no makeup..all natural!; 6/3/15, 5:56 PM
Scott said...: Caitlyn. That's a name that just screams "white trash," doesn't it.; 6/3/15, 5:57 PM
CStanley said...: What matters more, chromosomes, or people feeling reasonably happy and functioning in their relations with others?

If your physical body is at odds with the way you perceive yourself, you have two options: alter your physical body, or adjust your perception to the physical reality.

And if I'm not mistaken, there are numerous studies showing that people who undergo sex "reassignment" do not end up being "reasonably happy." Wasn't there a major surgical hospital (John's Hopkins, maybe? Sorry, no time to look it up) that was doing a lot of the surgeries and then stopped because they felt it was unethical, given the poor outcomes for psychological health?

As for the religion parallel, someone upthread nailed it: religious beliefs are not falsifiable, but physical gender is.; 6/3/15, 6:02 PM
Scott said...: Oops, I meant Caitlin not Caitlyn. Much classier.; 6/3/15, 6:04 PM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: My original feeling was that DNA was determinative, and as such, Jenner is a man.
However, having read details of the accident I must admit, driving doesn't lie: that dude's a chick!; 6/3/15, 6:13 PM
CatherineM said...: Scott it's an Irish. In English it would be Katelynn. A variation on Catherine. Katarzyna in Polish, etcetera.; 6/3/15, 6:17 PM
Michael said...: Vile people.; 6/3/15, 6:29 PM
chickelit said...: CatherineM said...
No Ann. He is clearly behind a front seat after he says the words "it's beautiful..,". Sorry. If you want to accuse him of driving a go,f cart in the desert recklessly, ok.

You and Althouse are talking about completely different photos. In the accident Althouse is referring to, Jenner (Bruce not Caitlin) was driving while male and he was pulling a trailer. Please stop wasting our time by referring to some photo of Caitlyn Jenner as being related to the one in which Jenner's vehicle rear ended a vehicle and ended up pushing a another woman's car into oncoming traffic. Paparazzi photographed the whole thing in detail. I'm not an attorney but I do know that under CA law the one rear-ending is always at fault either for following too closely or inattentive driving. Has this POS Jenner expressed any remorse for this woman's death ? It seems to me that the event triggered his coming out and transformation. Maybe he's going to argue that someone else (Bruce) did it. Idiot idolaters are going to cheerlead him.; 6/3/15, 6:59 PM
chickelit said...: Has this POS Jenner expressed any remorse for this woman's death ?

I don't watch trashy interviews on TV but I recall Jenner getting a big fawning interview on TV recently. Did anyone bother to ask it about the accident? Is this being swept under the rug?; 6/3/15, 7:03 PM
Richard Lawrence Cohen said...: "They were careless people, Tom and Daisy -- they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back to their money or their vast carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made..."
-- The Great Gatsby

"He remembered poor Julian [Scott Fitzgerald] and his romantic awe of them and how he had started a story once that began, 'The very rich are different from you and me,' and how someone [Hemingway] had said to Julian, Yes, they have more money."
-- "The Snows of Kilimanjaro"; 6/3/15, 7:10 PM
hoyden said...: Count me as one who does not wear makeup ever. Makeup and purses didn't work for me. My thanks and gratitude to the women who staked out the no-makeup territory.; 6/3/15, 7:11 PM
Bill said...: In conversation today, I accidentally referred to her as Caitlyn Jender.

Caitlin is Kathleen in the original Irish. It's pronounced Cotch-leen and means little Cait (which in turn is pronounced Cotch).; 6/3/15, 7:21 PM
Interesting,not crazy said...: Most people do not care what Jenner calls himself. Most people are pissed off about bing told they are assholes for simply not calling hime Catelinn. Or for not calling him "her"; 6/3/15, 7:44 PM
iowan2 said...: Why is our fine hostess trying to jam rational thought onto Jenner. He's by word and action removed from reality. He's only affecting his family and those close to him.

But to waste effort trying to to understand irrational behavior borders on insanity. I was taught by older and wiser people that trying to help people that don't want help to accept the world as it is, is exhausting and futile. Jenner is just as rational as a girl who buys the the 40 EE boobs..........because that will be the source of her happiness. Jenner had more than the average person can comprehend, and still not happy. All the rational explanation of his long list of gratitudes did not convince him to live in reality. He in fact has too much. And he has the means to attain, even the wildest thing, imaginable.

So. #1. the world crowned him a champion. He is still trying to prove it to himself, He's building a strawman to conquer. "I will not bow to the pressure of society to be beautiful. I will embrace the challenge like no other woman has been able to do".

#2. More of the same for #1

#3. Uh? He is NOT connected to reality. He did not kill anyone. He happened to be in the area, but Jenner did NOT kill a soul. World champions do not kill people, at least not this world champion.

let's stop kidding our self that Jenner represents something that anyone can learn from, unless it's serving as a bad example.; 6/3/15, 7:46 PM
hoyden said...: "don't give vanity a second chance
no no no
beauty's only skin deep
it goes just so far 'cause
you're only pretty as you feel
you're only pretty as you feel inside
just as pretty as you feel"

"Pretty As You Feel", JA "Bark"; 6/3/15, 7:59 PM
CatherineM said...: No Chicklit. Read her last comment #3 again where she accuses Jenner of driving while filming In the trailer she attached just like he did in the accident. So she is comparing 2 videos. In the Caitlin video linked he is a passenger in a car and a only a driver off road in a golf cart. I posted a still clearly showing the seat in front of him in the Caitlin video meaning Jenner was not driving.

As far as the accident itself, show me all of these videos and films of the accident itself where you can clearly see Jenner was at fault. I haven't yet. I see distant paparazzi stills where I see what looks like Bruce behind the wheel , but I can't see what he's doing and then the videos of the aftermath of the crash. Bottom line, we will know soon enough if Jenner killed anyone when the investigation is completed. Perhaps Althouse will be correct that he was reckless, but I don't think she should be calling him that now.; 6/3/15, 7:59 PM
chickelit said...: CatherineM obfuscates: I see distant paparazzi stills where I see what looks like Bruce behind the wheel , but I can't see what he's doing and then the videos of the aftermath of the crash.

OK, that's all I need to know about you.; 6/3/15, 8:08 PM
iowan2 said...: A study of similar subjects at Clark Institute in Toronto had found that many of these men described themselves as lesbians to psychiatrists because they were sexually attracted to women. "... I concluded that to provide a surgical alteration to the body of these unfortunate people was to collaborate with a mental disorder rather than to treat it," said McHugh.

http://narth.org/docs/johnhopkins.html; 6/3/15, 8:17 PM
jr565 said...: Are women not annoyed at how stereotypical Bruce views women? I thought women were saying they don't have to shave their legs. Or wear makeup? This dude is reinforcing thst men need to wear makeup and/or shave their legs.
It's like he's doing black face of women. Women are these sites thst spend hours getting ready and going to get their makeup done.; 6/3/15, 8:25 PM
jr565 said...: "1. It's great, because it increases equality, as it allows more individuals to choose to present as female."

BUT THEY ARE NOT FEMALE!!!!! he still has a dick!; 6/3/15, 8:37 PM
jr565 said...: "I think the mental illness meme was already discussed, and I made my point about it yesterday: "Gender is like religion — extremely meaningful to people in ways that work without necessary alignment to what is true and usually not a good topic for argument, not unless you've built a relationship of trust with your interlocutor." I don't think it's necessary to spout off about how those who believe in religion are delusional every time the topic of religion comes up. At some point it's jackassery."
And yet they are clearly suffering from a mental issue. They suffer from dysphoria. Peoples delusions are always meaningful to them. But we don't tell anorexics that they are fat do we? They are anorexic. They are starving themselves to death based on a delusion that has no basis in reality. It hurts people if you play along with their delusion and it hurts us if we have to bow changer our very pronouns just so as not t hurt someone's feelings.; 6/3/15, 8:40 PM
jr565 said...: "And I'm not asserting that all religion is delusional. It's just that people believe things and we don't continually talk about how they're nutty to believe something that we think can't possibly be true. Are Mormons crazy? I don't know, but it's jackassery to go there every time the subject comes up."

religions are not recognized as psychological conditions. If you suffer from dysphoria you are suffering from a psychological condition.
And we don't require people to believe religions. The transgendered community are requiring us to adopt their view of the the world. Which is a psychological condition.; 6/3/15, 8:43 PM
jr565 said...: Althosue wrote:
"No Ann. He is clearly behind a front seat after he says the words "it's beautiful..,". Sorry. If you want to accuse him of driving a go,f cart in the desert recklessly, ok. "

Jenner's hands are on the wheel, Jenner is driving and even saying "We're off the property." Which means: 1. Jenner has a lot of property! and 2. Jenner drove off the property.

What is your point? You don't seem to want to face uncomfortable facts.

well he does drive like a woman. So maybe there really is something to this female brain thing. I kid.

As to why he doesn't settle. He's a rich person. The cops already said he wasn't criminally liable. If he admits to civil liability he will be on the hook for millions of dollars. Because the lawyers will go after him with both guns blazing.; 6/3/15, 8:50 PM
Roughcoat said...: Remember when Joni Mitchell suddenly started wearing makeup? The year was 1976 and she had just released the Hejira album. It had the same impact on certain segments of the youth culture as Bob Dylan coming the stage with The Band for his second set at the 1965 Newport Folk Festival and "going electric." I lived in Boulder, Colorado, at the time and I can tell you Joni's new look caused the earth to shift in that town. Young girls were frantic to emulate her. Almost overnight they ditched their peasant shirts and leather halter tops and pioneer dresses and got LBDs, berets, and red lipstick. There was a run on the cosmetics at the local department stores and older sisters and moms were consulted on how to apply makeup. I'm exaggerating only a very little. It was a big deal, what she did. Me, I thought it was great, because I was getting older myself and learning to appreciate elegant women (not girls) wearing high heels and hose and real perfume (not patchouli oil) and, yes, judiciously applied makeup. I liked that they were starting to wear their hair up. I started wearing suits with ties to work. Good times. Thanks, Joni.; 6/3/15, 8:53 PM
Roughcoat said...: Forgot to mention, with Joni's new look the girls in Boulder began shaving their legs and underarms again. I am not exaggerating in the least. Again I'll say: thanks, Joni.; 6/3/15, 8:57 PM
jr565 said...: Instapundit quoted this (fro. The wsj) and this is so relevant:
"[P]olicy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention. This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken—it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.

The transgendered suffer a disorder of “assumption” like those in other disorders familiar to psychiatrists. With the transgendered, the disordered assumption is that the individual differs from what seems given in nature—namely one’s maleness or femaleness. Other kinds of disordered assumptions are held by those who suffer from anorexia and bulimia nervosa, where the assumption that departs from physical reality is the belief by the dangerously thin that they are overweight. . . .

When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings. Some 25% did have persisting feelings; what differentiates those individuals remains to be discerned.

We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into “sex-reassignment surgery”—launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as “satisfied” by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a “satisfied” but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.

It now appears that our long-ago decision was a wise one. A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription. . . .

At the heart of the problem is confusion over the nature of the transgendered. “Sex change” is biologically impossible. People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder."
When is something like anorexia we don't say it's a civil rights issue we treat it like the disorder it is. We don't give them diet pills because they think they are at. Johns Hopkins knows a thing or two about transsexuals and sex changes. They are acting responsibly, unlike all the people pretending that transsexuals aren't suffering from a serious mental condition, that will be very harmful for them.; 6/3/15, 8:58 PM
cubanbob said...: "Have you ever looked at anybody's chromosomes? That isn't the way people relate to other people."

Actually, yes. Each and every time I look at someone I see the summation of their chromosomes as expressed by their hair and eye color, gender, height, body shape, face among other physical features. Yes outward appearances can be changed but the change in form isn't a change in substance.

The comparison to religious beliefs is a bit odd, one can change their beliefs but no one has yet to change their chromosomes.; 6/3/15, 8:58 PM
jr565 said...: Althosue wrote:
"The 'chromosome' thing is a way of highlighting the fact that biologically he is still a man. From a scientific point of view, "sex change" is not actually a sex change. It's just body art."

But why are you choosing that point of view? Why does the word "sex" mean something important to you that you need to connect to "science." I'm suggesting that individual psychology and interpersonal relationships are more important here and these things can also be studied scientifically. What matters more, chromosomes, or people feeling reasonably happy and functioning in their relations with others? I'm saying none of us every gets involved in other people's chromosomes (unless we have some professional capacity, studying chromosomes).

its like your asking, why are you choosing reality over fantasy if fantasy makes you fell good.; 6/3/15, 9:05 PM
Bob Ellison said...: Inside, I am Julius Erving, but Jewish and Japanese. And female hamster.; 6/3/15, 9:07 PM
Todd Roberson said...: I got news for Jenner. You stick your penis into another mammal, ejaculate and, as a result the other mammal gets pregnant and bears children, you are a man. I can't think of a more straightforward and clear definition of a "man".

End of story.

Jenner isn't a woman. Jenner is a man in need of counseling. Unless, of course, Jenner is doing all of this for publicity and money. In which case, what a disgusting human being.

Jenner ... You suck and a are a disgrace to the United States.; 6/3/15, 9:11 PM
Roughcoat said...: Women have been wearing makeup since time immemorial. The women of Mycenae, Old Kingdom Egypt, the Minoan palaces, and Shang China all wore makeup. Wherever you go, as far back in history as you care to look women, if they could get it and afford it, have worn makeup. One of the oldest Egyptian artifacts, the Narmer Palette from the 31st Century B.C., was used for makeup application. Neanderthal women wore makeup made of red ocher. The wearing of makeup is universal among women of all times and places and this would seem to suggest that obedience to the dictates of fashion is not adequate to explain its use.; 6/3/15, 9:15 PM
Unknown said...: "Whatever happened to the natural look? "

You're kidding, aren't you? We're way beyond natural in this instance.; 6/3/15, 9:22 PM
jr565 said...: If you have costume jewelry you can't call it real diamonds. Well you can, but you'd be lying.
If you thought you could turn lead into gold you'd be mistaken. If you suffered a delusion that you did, you actually didn't. Even if it hurts your feeling it's important for the rest of us to know that lead is not gold not can it be turned to gold. Because it undermines the meaning of both lead and gold if you say they are both the same. Previously we had a specific definition of both, now we are told, no one looks at chemical compositions we just like that they are shiny and look similar form far away.
Even though I know that yesterday, that same piece of lead sitting on the shelf was called lead. And now it's being sold or marketed as gold. No. It's lead.; 6/3/15, 9:22 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: @ Roughcoat - that is a wonderful story about Joni Mitchell. Thanx for sharing.

I remember those hippie chicks from the 70s. Many of them were pretty -- all that long flowing hair.

In that decade of actual turmoil, war, riots, and strife, I remember " Make love, not war," but I don't remember men pretending to be women, and women pretending to be men.; 6/3/15, 9:23 PM
chickelit said...: Roughcoat said...

Women have been wearing makeup since time immemorial.

Like Robert Plant used to sing:

Antimony, antimony, payin' your bills,
Livin', lovin', she's just a woman; 6/3/15, 9:39 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: "Whatever happened to the natural look? "

I see it a lot in real life. In fact, I'd say it's the norm.

I never see it on magazine covers. (I don't buy the kind of magazines that have lots of photos of women's faces in them, so I can't say what's on the inside.) But then, the magazines with women's faces in them are the magazines selling ad space to beauty products. It isn't in their interest to highlight the natural look.; 6/3/15, 9:47 PM
Bob Ellison said...: A tiny bit of lipstick goes a long way, and a lipstick smooch on the cheek goes a light year.; 6/3/15, 9:56 PM
rcommal said...: Is there some meaning that I'm not discerning w/r/t the spelling "Caitlin" vs. "Caitlyn"? As in, for example, the title of this post, which features "Caitlin" as the spelling.; 6/3/15, 10:00 PM
William said...: If I ever met a transgendered person, I would try to be cordial and respectful. The problem is I don't know any transgendered people. And I live in NYC. It's my understanding that you really have to go out of your way to meet them.......I have met people who wear toupees and built up shoes. I also make it a point to treat them with dignity and respect, but I've got some occult feelings about their efforts to pass for something they're not. But if it makes them feel better about themselves, where's the harm. Ditto with the transgendered. Since when did this become a big problem?; 6/3/15, 11:13 PM
walter said...: "The pressure for heavy make-up comes from women, not men. Women are the ones who will gripe if a woman isn't made up properly. Most guys just do not care."

Depends on the definition of "heavy". and what is "the natural look" once entering the makeup world? Working and seeing it in media, the huge transformations, i.e. coverup capabilities of makeup resulting in "the natural" look is actually "heavy" fakery...mostly a tool chosen by women to look better than they really look. No different than a shaper/lifter bra or Spanx.; 6/3/15, 11:21 PM
Skeptical Voter said...: Sorry Ms. Althouse. Between people talking about Josh Duggar and you writing a post on Bruce-Caitlyn Jennner, my patience for frivolous things and topics is all used up.

People can do what they danged well please, but I don't have to think about the outliers.; 6/3/15, 11:33 PM
Quaestor said...: cubanbob wrote: The comparison to religious beliefs is a bit odd, one can change their beliefs but no one has yet to change their chromosomes.

I think the comparison made was between religion and gender, which to the postmodern mind is something other than sex -- not that I agree with that conceit, just that those who use the term without irony hold that there's a distinction. Nevertheless your statement is still valid.

Religion is uniquely human. We can see a lot of ourselves in the great apes. In the ape's ability to make and use tools, to understand and be understood in language, and to solve problems with reasoning we are shown a prototype of humanity. However, no ape worships. Religion grows out of the highest functions of the human mind, functions that appear to have no analog in the ape mind. Humans see patterns in nature that demand explanation; the human is also aware of his own inevitable death, and that knowledge demands consolation.

Sex and the human sex drive, however, is something we've inherited from the ancestral species, whatever that was. It's part of us even it the molecular level, and it's more than mere details of anatomy. Sex is not entirely a matter of the will; it is an imperative that operates at the foundational level of our intellect. This is why sex offenders have such a high rate of recidivist crime.

To pretend that sex and sexual identity are with the bounds of rational choice is flat earth thinking.; 6/4/15, 12:04 AM
Drago said...: Todd Roberson: "Jenner ... You suck and a are a disgrace to the United States"

But not a snitch!; 6/4/15, 12:05 AM
Smilin' Jack said...: All the world's a stage. I think Abraham Lincoln said that.

If he did, he was quoting Shakespeare.

I wish there were more images of beautiful, unmade-up women out there as there used to be when I was young.

Some women don't need makeup. Other women use makeup to try to look like them. Kind of like falsies. But when the face is washed and the bra comes off....; 6/4/15, 12:28 AM
rcommal said...: I'm trying to raise the subject of empathy.

I remember trying to do that, Althouse, years and years and years over time ago here.; 6/4/15, 1:54 AM
rcommal said...: And I got schooled plenty over time for trying that, first here and then elsewhere.; 6/4/15, 2:06 AM
rcommal said...: Far better to be you, Althouse, when you choose empathy, that's for sure.; 6/4/15, 2:21 AM
hoyden said...: Authenticity in relationship is one of the gifts of transitioning. The physical body is the vehicle consciousness inhabits in this life. When the body is at odds with consciousness and that dissonance becomes acute then something has to change. I learned the hard way that I could not change consciousness. The body change is imperfect, or as many here note, inauthentic. Such is life and the choices one makes playing the hand we're dealt. It's not an easy path.; 6/4/15, 3:59 AM
dustbunny said...: Althouse says none of us gets involved with other people's chromosomes. Really?? Isnt having children together a pretty serious involvement with chromosomes?; 6/4/15, 5:36 AM
CStanley said...: I concede that I don't know how hard it would be to transform your emotional state, if it was not in sync with your physical state. But Hayden describes transitioning as an act of authenticity, which it objectively is not. That is what I find difficult to accept with the concept- that the outward body that is presented to the world is different not just in degree but in kind from what the physiology (and anatomy) really are.

I point out the difference of kind vs degree because I somewhat concede the point that we all present ourselves to the world in a form that isn't our natural unembellished self- some more than others, as in heavy makeup, spanx, etc....but even in fashion choices that either cover or accentuate.

I guess acceptance of trans people depends on the ability to see gender in a very ambiguous way, as a spectrum. That is part and parcel with the view that sex and procreation are disconnected....a view that I don't share, and that I find disordered and harmful to the human psyche as well as our culture. I think we need to get back to talking about this root difference in viewpoints that is opening up wide rifts in what some people accept and want others to accept, and what others of us disagree on with respect to this desire to normalize.; 6/4/15, 6:09 AM
CStanley said...: Adding to my comment about transforming one's emotional state if it isn't in sync with the biology:

I wonder if the people facing this quandary aren't tilting against windmills a bit. If you have a vagina but dont feel very girlie, there really IS a spectrum of behaviors on the female side that might be a fit for you (generally society has had more to loperamide on the female end of this, for what used to be called tomboys.) And although less well tolerated (something which should have, and has ,changed are biological men who aren't very masculine, who like fine clothes and domesticity (used to be called dandies, and more recently metrosexuals.)

Aren't these more authentic versions of those selves than a surgically transformed body would be? And if so, is this what the person aims for in reconciling their feelinfpgs with self, or does he/she tend to look at the very feminine extremes (for the XX's) or hyper masculine extremes (for XYs) and feel, "I could never be like that, therefore I am not really a woman/man even though I have the genitals of one."; 6/4/15, 6:26 AM
hoyden said...: The silver lining is that we don't reproduce. The precious chromosomes are preserved.; 6/4/15, 6:58 AM
hoyden said...: My tilting was done during the 28 years I tried to live the male role. By that time I knew I would not have this problem if I were female. Thirty two years post op validates my decision. It's been a fascinating experience with no regrets. I have learned a lot about myself and my relationship to others.. The me you meet today is the authentic me. There was no viable existence in the male role except at the most superficial Level.; 6/4/15, 7:16 AM
MaxedOutMama said...: hoyden - With deepest respect and concern, the reason why so many don't understand the need for medical transformation of secondary sexual characteristics (which is all that can be accomplished) is that so many of us don't experience a consciousness rooted in apparent gender. We experience our "selves" as entities NOT essentially rooted in biological gender, and this becomes more, not less, true as we age and gain experience.

Thus, we look at Jenner and are confounded. We do not understand, because we do not experience life and self the same way as those driven to change their apparent biological sex. To us, it is the same thing as being convinced that one's life would be radically changed if our eye color were different.

Furthermore, the idea of a self as NOT being rooted in biological gender is the basic ideological concept behind the woman's rights movement in western civilization - which is, I think, the basic "Huh?" behind Ann's post.

I wish Jenner well, but I would personally prefer that Jenner not talk about woman's rights issues, because Jenner does NOT get it. Really.; 6/4/15, 7:52 AM
hoyden said...: Can't speak for Jenner but surgery is the price of admission to being legally recognized as female. Growing up with male genitals defined my experience. Everything I did or said had to conform to the rules of masculine socialization. My conscious expression was circumscribed by the anatomy between my legs. Totally sucks. Once I realized I could not change the way I felt then I knew life was not worth living in that stunted form. After surgery I had to unlearn all the defenses I erected to keep folks from knowing my true self. That's an ongoing task. I actually enjoy life rather than enduring it.; 6/4/15, 9:01 AM
HT said...: It is appalling that Bruce Jenner killing someone by accident is just glossed over and forgotten and he is seen now driving about happy and saying "I'm the new normal." I think a lot of media money was riding on his debut as a woman, and so it wasn't just him that wanted to forget about it. I also know a lot of women who don't wear a lot of makeup.

I am not so sure he has a lack of empathy for women. Sorry to refer to a previous thread, but a commenter noted that Jenner's problem was narcissism and I agree. He wants attention as a man and a woman. Is he at all interesting as a person - either man or woman?

Back to the makeup thing. One, he's in LA. Two, he's making a DEBUT - how would it be if he came out looking all haggard and masculine? Three, as he is making a debut, it's maybe not the best time to be expecting him to lead the natural look movement? I think us natural lookers can withstand this, Ann. And if he says something like 'i didn't realize women were under such pressure' and then buys into it, so what? I just see him as having his own little fun moment. Any woman who actually listens to that and thinks, oh wow, caitlyn jenner says to wear makeup and takes him seriously (her) is kind of coo coo, if you ask me.; 6/4/15, 9:13 AM
Craig Landon said...: To the extent I've been aware of it at all, Jenner (in whatever manifestation) is so much eyewash. Rafer_Johnson has always been my decathlete of choice for both his athletic and non-athletic achievements.; 6/4/15, 9:59 AM
CatherineM said...: No Chicklit, what I understand about you, Ann and JRE is you don't realize that's 3 different clips in that video. Caitlin putting on makeup, driving a golf cart in the desert, and riding as a passenger in a car. I am not defending Jenner, but Saying what Ann sees in the video isn't there unless you want to compare a golf cart in desert to a truck on the Pacific Coast Highway. Ann says he shouldn't be driving recklessly because he recently killed someone doing so. Fine. Let's say he's guilty. He is only filmed driving the golf cart in the desert. The next shot he is not driving, he's a passenger. That's all. As for the accident, why hasn't someone linked to a video of the accident taking place.; 6/4/15, 11:08 AM
Sigivald said...: Well, one thing that happened is that the Kardashian family has been participating in pushing the extremely heavily made-up standard of feminine beauty.

Pushing, to whom?

Who takes that lot seriously or cares about their "example"?

Such persons deserve what they get in terms of a difficult "standard".

The "real problem" here is that anyone cares what "celebrities" do, ever, regarding anything.; 6/4/15, 11:49 AM
hoyden said...: MaxedOutMama said, "...many of us don't experience a consciousness rooted in apparent gender. We experience our "selves" as entities NOT essentially rooted in biological gender, and this becomes more, not less, true as we age and gain experience."

When your consciousness is congruent with biological gender then you are free. Otherwise you are bound by the limits imposed by the culture's idea of consciousness expressed within a male or female body.

I learned very early in life to never express myself in any way that could be interpreted as feminine or "girly." I saw the grief heaped upon boys who stepped over the line. I remember thinking I would never let that happen to me. learned how to hide the expression and hide the feelings that didn't fit in the male role.

I have mellowed out in my old age. I don't seek to pass as female so much as be comfortable in my body. Real women have staked out the androgynous much to my delight. I am not affronted, embarrassed, or annoyed if someone occasionally uses the wrong pronoun. It's just not an issue anymore.; 6/4/15, 2:31 PM
hoyden said...: Sigivald said, "The "real problem" here is that anyone cares what "celebrities" do, ever, regarding anything."

I totally agree. I was never interested in riding the TMZ/Vanity Fair bus.

I like to think of myself as a virago; a woman of masculine strength or spirit; a female warrior.

Virago is not just a motorcycle I've owned twice.

Hoyden has a similarly comfortable lineage.; 6/4/15, 2:40 PM
walter said...: Makes for fairly pointless mass distraction from a lot more substantive crap going on. Oh..who cares abouut a shit "recovery", lets talk Jenner.; 6/4/15, 3:08 PM
richardsson said...: "3. In the second half of the clip, you're talking and getting filmed while driving. You recently killed a woman by driving inattentively. Shouldn't you not film while driving?!"

He might now be a she, but she is still the same dimwit.; 6/4/15, 10:01 PM