June 20, 2015

"As we said in the Bible study, we enjoyed you. But may God have mercy on you."

Said Felicia Sanders to Dylann Roof, who listened by video feed and could be seen standing, noy moving, looking blank.

Felicia Sanders is the mother of victim Tywanza Sanders, the first of the 9 persons Roof shot. According to this account in The Washington Post, Tywanza, 26, was the first person Roof shot, but not the first person Roof targeted. Roof aimed first at the oldest person there, a woman, Susie Jackson, 87. And Tywanza "put himself between the 87-year-old woman and the gunman and sought to talk him down." Roof shot Sanders and then Jackson.

Such strong and profound expressions of Christianity rarely appear in the media. Truly awe-inspiring.

Here's a new photo of Roof that's turned up. It would be ludicrous, like some nonracist's parody of a racist, if the fact of the massacre didn't block any possible comedy:



The NYT found the picture at a website (which it doesn't link to) that "features dozens of photos of Dylann Storm Roof...  posing with weapons, burning an American flag and visiting Southern historic sites and Confederate soldiers’ graves.... posing with wax figures of slaves."
It... concludes with a section labeled “An Explanation.” “I have no choice... I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.”
That reminds me in some ways of the Norwegian murderer Anders Behring Breivik, who is carefully profiled in "The Inexplicable/Inside the mind of a mass killer," in The New Yorker a few weeks ago:
He made himself a sort of military commander’s uniform, in which he photographed himself before the crime; he consistently referred to a large organization, of which he claimed to be a prominent member but which does not exist; in his manifesto he interviews himself as if he were a hero; and the impression this gives is of a person who has erected a make-believe reality, in which his significance is undisputed....
ADDED: "I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight"... so, he chose the church — and unusually kindly people — because it was so easy. He "explained" that as "bravery," because he was all alone.

261 comments:

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Michael said...

ARM

Are you writing from a foreign country? Or are you in a special pocket of white America that is so far from the evil south that exempts you from taking part in white guilt, white this and white that? While you lecture the rest of the country on its supposed anti-intellectualism (you got this from a high school text book?) and "lack of interest in the fine arts." Where the fuck are you writing from? Is it smugville or sanctimonia? And which fine arts are you worried we aren't having enough interest in? Painting? Symphony? Do you think that during the long march of liberals through our institutions they have given one shit about those things? Where on earth do you reside? You are aware that the culture is debased from the left and not the right are you not? You do know that liberals pretty much control the media which is largely responsible for the devolution of our arts? Do you think right wingers thought up the Kardashians? 2Chainz?

Guildofcannonballs said...

You call me Guildofcannonballs or not, your choice.

Buckley cares, via his input, not to mention his writing/debating/conversing/transcribing-listeners thoughts on these and other matters.

I miss William Frank Buckley Junior already although he helped teach me how stupidly absurd the undercurring modern sepsis (culture) undercurringly does that undercurringlyness.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

OK. That suggests that there's something universal and fundamental about "racism" in human populations.

Which, I guess, must be so much more important than acknowledging something universal and fundamental about there being strength in numbers, strength in historical application or strength in a legacy of government endorsement of said racism. The same legacy that the Confederate flag defenders want to convince us is worth taking pride in.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Michael said...
Where the fuck are you writing from? Is it smugville or sanctimonia?


It's irritating, isn't it? Just imagine how black people feel having to put up with that shit 24/7 for their entire lives.

Birkel said...

"Rhythm and Balls" has convinced me:
Southern Democrats were racist as hell and deserve no political power.

narciso said...

the difference between the typical troll, to journolister, like the Vox bunch, to a policy maker in this administration, is within one standard deviation,

Birkel said...

"Rhythm and Balls" wishes to tell us how black people feel. Everybody hush and let him educate us.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Never missing the sort of chance right-wingers seem to love, to expound on ways to learn the wrong lesson, "Birkel" chimes in, right on time, with yet another irrelevancy.

Unknown said...

"It's the South that's wrong here..."

This is the whole of my complaint. The South? Are we all guilty of murder? Are we all guilty of incitement? You want to blame all of us for something.

There is a reason I quoted Lynyrd Skynyrd before. The song "Sweet Home Alabama" (I hold my hand over my heart when I hear that song) was written in response to "Southern Man" which blamed the whole south for the actions of a few. What is it called when someone groups a bunch of people together and assigns attributes to them as a whole? Big- something. Don't worry, it'll come to me.

Did I not in my initial comment advocate removing the confederate flag from state property? I'm pretty sure I did. And since I happen to agree with you on that particular point, why would I attack you for it? No, my criticism is you placing blame on an entire population for the actions of one. It pleases me to note that he acted alone because he couldn't find anyone else that would do it. How does that factor into your mass judgement?

Bob Ellison said...

2015 summer looks bad for American politics and culture. 2016 summer looks worse.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

This is the whole of my complaint. The South? Are we all guilty of murder? Are we all guilty of incitement? You want to blame all of us for something.

You're all guilty of not doing enough to make the Confederate legacy, something other than a legacy - and something more like what it really is and should be - a curiosity.

Did I not in my initial comment advocate removing the confederate flag from state property? I'm pretty sure I did. And since I happen to agree with you on that particular point, why would I attack you for it? No, my criticism is you placing blame on an entire population for the actions of one.

You said you were in favor of it happening on a timescale that may as well have been glacial. Maybe we'll do it - perhaps in another lifetime. And therein lies the problem. This Southern lackadaisical attitude about things. Southerners historically made the same damn excuses about slavery itself - that it was wrong, it should go. But who knows when? Not in 1860 under under federal counter-attack for what happened at Sumter. Then when? It's always about the pride of you guys wanting to do it your way. On your own terms. In your own time. But the country doesn't have any more time. This shit should have ended in 1865.

It pleases me to note that he acted alone because he couldn't find anyone else that would do it. How does that factor into your mass judgement?

I said repeatedly throughout the thread that his own mental issues were their own factor. But that doesn't excuse the influences he received by living and breathing daily in a culture that truly believes veneration of the stars and bars is just some alternative and entirely acceptable viewpoint. It's not. That IS the problem.

And you acknowledged as much by saying we should allow it to be on account of Southerners' ancestry.

Oh really? Well what about black Americans' ancestry?

You try so many approaches, and they all just fall apart. I'm sorry it's so hard for you to get what's wrong with the larger picture.

But I guess that's why Alex told me I have to be patient. Again, I must be the arrogant one for continuously questioning HOW MUCH TIME is enough?

Seriously. Maybe you can give a sign, of some sort. Like the Bat Signal searchlight. A glowing projection of the stars and bars will appear in America's night skies less and less frequently throughout the year. Just give me something so that I can know when "y'all" have finally gotten over this nonsense.

Michael said...


ARM

When was the last time you had a conversation with a black person? Probably not recently if you irritate the shit out of them 24/7 for their entire lives.

Fill us in when you were involved in the Civil Rights movement, perhaps we know/knew some of the same people. There weren't a lot of guys from Sanctimonia in those days. Those guys stayed home.

Don't lecture me on black people dip shit.

Guildofcannonballs said...

I JUST CHANGED from somewhatdumbcunt to quite Hell-bound per Ann Barndhart.


https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=Ann+Barndhart.&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

The greatest is reserved fort defended. Yeah yeah yeah money matters and makes sense; but America, contra Obama, is indeed differrent.

I had thought about about "indeed different" regarding my "handle." Only an American of let's just say Clarence Thomas' hopefulness and status as the Greatest Living American (status derived from what some might refer to as "real") concurs Althouses's domicile.

Guildofcannonballs said...

I'd rather be killed dead than Hillary!

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

You're right, Michael. ARM knows nothing. It's important that black guys have people like you to "take care of them" and speak for their interests. Like the slave-owner did of his property. Your "protection" of them is an enlightened one. Almost like mafia protection. Tell it to those liberals!

Guildofcannonballs said...

http://www.barnhardt.biz/

althouse.blogspot.com

Sarah Palin.


Easy answer to 84.99% of questions: let's focus on the 15.01% cause ya know.

Guildofcannonballs said...

The time to pity the $200,000 per year brownshit is not yet upon us.

But it's upon lot's of Althouse's peers non-Wisconsinite by space/time/attitude/Identity. This self-imposed exile didn't exist unless it helps mybudget.

That's, you slowly UW folks, mybudget.tax

Bob Ellison said...

Hellhound on my trail.

Guildofcannonballs said...

When your EPA or whatever attacks me, you see nothing.


That's the only way ain't it?

Oh?

Really?

tHAT'S THE ONLY 2AY.

i GET ATTACKEED AND AUTHORITY SNEERS AT BEST.

Unknown said...

"You said you were in favor of it happening on a timescale that may as well have been glacial"

No, YOU said that, not me.

You are as much a bigot as any slaveholder. I'm finished playing your little semantic games.

YoungHegelian said...

@R&B,

I accept your apology, & hand you some virtual bandages & virtual peroxide for your virtually damaged skull.

To answer your question, however, about what to do about the salvific status one's non-Catholic spouse in a mixed marriage. To start, please don't take a movie stars word on what constitutes Catholic doctrine, especially on an issue as complicated as justification. And there is no doctrine other than perhaps the Trinity as complicated as justification.

My own personal views (which are well within the ambit of orthodox Roman Catholicism) is that it is the height of greatest arrogance to think that I understand who God will damn & who He will save. My job is to drag my own butt across the line to St. Peter, and that will be difficult enough.

The Mystical Body of Christ contains the visible Church, but it is more, perhaps much, much more. It is not necessary for my salvation that I understand those boundaries. What I need has been revealed. Just as all who are in the visible Church are not saved, all those who are visibly outside of it in this world are not damned. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salvus is always to be understood as including in its boundaries the full Mystical Body, and its membership will only be revealed to the blessed in Heaven, if then.

I can hope & perhaps I can prod, but only God's prevenient grace can move a heart to true conversion. That is no man's to dispense.

In spite of Catholicism's sometimes hard-ass definition of Extra Ecclesiam, it has always held a weak spot for the Virtuous Pagan, absorbing as it did the Classical moralists from its inception. In the Divine Comedy, it is Virgil who is Dante's guide through Hell & Purgatory. No Catholic reader can help but feel some pangs of regret (no doubt intended by Dante), that at the gates of Heaven, Virgil must hand over the tour guide duty to the redeemed Beatrice.

In spite of our crossed swords this evening, I hope this is of some help to you or another reader out there.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Take em' all.

everyone who might have committed a maybe crime, take em.

Make em.

And American's are usually submissive whores, so it's okay.

But don't try and rape a free man's daughter or concept of liberty.

Then you get shot dead.

All those sweet fun fun scenarios end when you get shot dead in America because an armed citizen recogknized.

narciso said...

the problem is do Episcopalians believe this truth anymore, from some friends of mine, that isn't clear anymore,

Guildofcannonballs said...

""accept your apology, & hand you some virtual bandages & virtual peroxide for your virtually damaged skull."

I don't accept your "I" and never will.

So think of what benefits (pleasures of the flesh) cry harder than your impotent yearnings.

Guildofcannonballs said...

DisemBuckleyed.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"You're right, Michael. ARM knows nothing. It's important that black guys have people like you to "take care of them" and speak for their interests. Like the slave-owner did of his property. Your "protection" of them is an enlightened one. Almost like mafia protection. Tell it to those liberals!"

The irony of a white liberal writing this absolutely defies comment.

rcommal said...

; ''''

Guildofcannonballs said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSIajKGHZRk

All the inclination:

Guildofcannonballs said...

I almost cleared $23,000 American income.

So I understand why my hatred is worthy of cunt ignorant poverty.

You shit fuck's will never know.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

First of all, I'm a Republican because I grew up under Wallace in Alabama, and no matter how much Democrats deny it, they are still the party of race… I will give him Lynyrd Skynyrds response to Neil Young...

In Birmingham they love the governor, boo boo boo
Now we all did what we could do
Now Watergate does not bother me
Does your conscience bother you? Tell the truth

Southern man
Better keep your head
Don't forget
What your good book said

What does your good book say about pride, Southern man?

rcommal said...

Althouse:

You used to talk as if it's best not to acknowledge, much less highlight, bad agents and their terribly directed, specifically chosen, actions.

I remember.

-----

You've changed since then.

-----

Well, hell.

tim in vermont said...

For starters, I would suggest examining their anti-intellectualism, fondness for institutional violence and lack of interest in the fine arts

I would sincerely like a solid definition of "anti-intellectualism" I get the feeling from your "lack of interest in the fine arts" comment, that it means not wishing to be told what to think by a small, self-appointed class of "intellectuals" is my guess.

I think that it is the obligation of every citizen to think for themselves, taking in as much evidence as they can. After all, "intellectuals" thought that WWI was a great idea. Then it is never the intellectuals who fight those wars, is it? Intellectuals have a way of getting carried off with their ideas and dragging the rest of us along with them.

Intellectuals thought that Soviet Communism was a great idea too, didn't they?

It is the obligation of the citizens of a democracy to act as a check against the "intellectuals" in a society.

But your "fine art" comment is the topper. What a prig you are, as I have said before, A Supercilious Prig.

clint said...

"Such strong and profound expressions of Christianity rarely appear in the media. Truly awe-inspiring."

In the NYT, as in Hollywood, strong and righteous expressions of Christian faith do appear -- as long as the Christians in question are black.

tim in vermont said...

In the NYT, as in Hollywood, strong and righteous expressions of Christian faith do appear -- as long as the Christians in question are black

Ain't that the truth. Although if the Pope appears temporarily useful to the left by picking and choosing carefully among his writings and ignoring the bulk of it, then the Pope is allowed to appear in polite company too.

Rusty said...

I have decided that guido is a Pynchonesq laslo.
I admit I don't know what the hell he's talking about most of the time, but if he ever has a one man stage show I want to be there.

Moneyrunner said...

As Governor, Bill Clinton Honored Confederacy On Arkansas Flag. Was that wrong?

Rusty said...

The crackermc @ 12:25

I know, right.
Their earnestness and commitment to something they know absolutely nothing about is what makes this blog worth reading.

Moneyrunner said...

The Democrats lost the Civil War in 1865. They seen strangely anxious to re-fight it now.

Moneyrunner said...

The Democrats lost their slaves in 1865. They've figured out a new strategy to capture Blacks and keep them subservient.

Moneyrunner said...

If Detroit were its own country it would beat Venezuela as the second most murderous country in the world behind Honduras. Right up there with St. Louis, Baltimore, New Orleans, Newark, Oakland, Chicago and other Democrat strongholds. Just sayin'.

Moneyrunner said...

Hey, I just noticed that the list of most murderous places are mostly in the North. We can add Kansas City, Stockton, Philadelphia and Cleveland to the list. Something in the culture? Places where Democrats are in control? Why yes.

amielalune said...

MayBee was the first I've seen anywhere to get it exactly right. Obama, Sharpton, CNN and the rest of the enemedia have been stirring the pot, agitating for this sort of thing nonstop since Trayvon Martin.

And now they're getting it. It's really too bad that the shooter went to a church instead of a newsroom.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

Last night's rerun of Star Trek TOS was "The Empath." That's the one that's got the . . . eh . . . that's the one that's got the empath in it. Pretty good episode. More along the lines of The Twilight Zone than most. They did a lot on what seems pretty obviously a shoestring budget.

A supernova will soon annihilate a solar system and a super-advanced civilization of big-headed, sparkly-robe-wearing guys must decide what planet they should save. Will it be the race of heavy eye makeup wearing, pixie-haircut-sporting empaths? Keep reading this comment and find out!

So how do you know a save-worthy race when you see one? But of course, Kirk, Spock and McCoy must be tortured, old-school, to see if the empath will acquire a survival instinct because science. William Shatner gets plentiful opportunity to feel his humanity at us.

An Old Testament sacrificial altar. A crucifixion by hardware purchased from Home Depot. The empath now fears death, and yet she selflessly offers herself to save the others, and in so doing conquers death. A new race is born. An entire planet will be saved.

Jesus as an alien from outer space.

Hey, it works for me.

Lewis Wetzel said...

The idea that a political state can determine that something is good or bad, regardless of what the people think, and can somehow "reform" the people so that they act in a manner closer to the liking of the state is the most horrific idea to come out of modernism.
If the people want to close the borders to immigration, but the federal government does not want to close the borders to immigration, where does the federal government get the authority to act against the will of the people? We don't let people vote themselves the property of other people (5th amendment) for reasons that are carefully argued in the Federalist papers. Why do we have open borders? So Tyson Chicken can make more money? So Barbara Streisand can hire a good, cheap gardener?

Lewis Wetzel said...

"As Governor, Bill Clinton Honored Confederacy On Arkansas Flag."

Bill Clinton: Pro-confederate, anti-gay marriage. Who would vote for a bigot like that?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The idea that a political state can determine that something is good or bad, regardless of what the people think, and can somehow "reform" the people so that they act in a manner closer to the liking of the state is the most horrific idea to come out of modernism.

Germany! You hear that?! Go ahead and put the Nazi swastika back on your flag! Terry sez it's "ok" and changes nothing if you were to keep it off!

Sammy Finkelman said...

this punk shot 9 church goers in cold blood

He was afraid to go to the college which was his earlier target - he didn't say it was a college, but the "ghetto" - so he went where he was sure he would be in no danger.

at the end of a bible study

He knew it was wrong, or at least was a point of no return, and that's why he waited. He apparently motivated himself by working himself into an artificial rage. They had finished the Bible study and were going to go into a concluding prayer.

He had set the date at least a week before, and it is almost certain he scheduled it so it would take place before his sister's wedding. It is not clear if he was invited, but his name was not on the invitation. The wedding ceremony, scheduled for today, was cancelled.

The fact that he felt there was some kind of deadline, and he even wasn't completely satistfied with his website, but felt he had left a lot out but had to rush - the manifesto was last modified at 4:$$ EDT on Thursday - and the fact his sister was about to get married, have to be connected.

Sammy Finkelman said...

On 6/20/15 @ 10:04 PM Rhythm and Balls said...

Southerners historically made the same damn excuses about slavery itself - that it was wrong, it should go.

No they didn't!

Starting around 1840, led into by John C. Calhoun of South Carolina, they started saying it was right. That it was "a positive good"

That had a great deal to do with causing the Civil War.

This murderer here now also had good things to say about slavery, claiming that he had hunbdreds of slave narratoves and they weren't unhappy. Not noticing mabe they they were written either by slaves who escaped, or were happy that the Union won the Civil War.

In the manifesto he writes that he wished that they had treated blacks as badly as was being claiming.

It pleases me to note that he acted alone because he couldn't find anyone else that would do it.

Good point. He himself acknowleges that he had no followers and no comrades.



damikesc said...

The flag isn't on the capitol. It's on a memorial on the grounds. I don't see why your raise and lower the flag remembering a great error.

damikesc said...

He had no friends or accomplices in a state that is, allegedly, a hotbed of racial hatred. Think about that.

Unknown said...

"What does your good book say about pride, Southern man? "

You mean the book that says this?

Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.- Matthew 7:1-5

Is that the book that you're talking about? The book that tells you specifically not to do the exact thing that you're doing right now?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

No. Actually I meant the earlier and more relevant stuff. Like this:

Proverbs 11:2 ESV

When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.

Proverbs 16:5 ESV

Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the Lord; be assured, he will not go unpunished.

Proverbs 29:23 ESV / 401 helpful votes

One's pride will bring him low, but he who is lowly in spirit will obtain honor.

Proverbs 16:18 ESV / 351 helpful votes

Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

Galatians 6:3 ESV / 312 helpful votes

For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

Proverbs 27:2 ESV / 236 helpful votes

Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips.

Proverbs 26:12 ESV / 198 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

James 4:6 ESV / 190 helpful votes

But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

Proverbs 12:15 ESV / 68 helpful votes

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.

Proverbs 25:27 ESV / 66 helpful votes

It is not good to eat much honey, nor is it glorious to seek one's own glory.


You're so into your Southern pride that you forget to even understand that's what the whole flag issue is about.

Give up your selfish pride, Sir. Secessionism and its roots were a lost cause and memorializing it (or defending the continued memorializing of it) is nothing more than a bunch of selfish regional pride that does no good.

As I said on the other thread, if South Carolina wants to commemorate its secessionist battles so much, it can draw up an amendment for ratification that allows for secession, get it passed, and GTFO of the Union.

Until then, take down the fucking flag.

It's an issue of what's legally appropriate. Not that I'd expect Southern contract-breakers (and later, lynchers) to know much about governing oneself through legal means.

Alex said...

Ritmo - quoting scripture when your party is anti-Christian? You better be careful about that.

Also - I fully support the right of the South Carolinians to fly the Confederate flag if they so choose. It is not your business or my business to say if they can. So why don't you butt the FUCK out of it?

Alex said...

Fight racist fire with literal fire: Burn Confederate flags

Well, well. Don't you just love peace-loving lefties?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I bet you find the burning of a Confederate flag to be as hurtful as you'd find the burning of a Nazi flag, Alex.

As we beat the Nazis, we beat the Confederacy. Its cause was wrong. It had no legal justification for secession. And those who supported it were enemies, as those who would revive it are enemies.

You are choosing sides, so stop pretending that it's any of YOUR BUSINESS EITHER to rant and rave as you do about this.

Steve M. Galbraith said...

Sometimes incidents like this - as horrific as they are - tell us something about the country.

But sometimes they don't.

This is one of those times where I'll be damned if there's anything to learn from this monster. Other than people will do evil things. And that, in our politicized era with the internet, people will use these acts to exact revenge on their opponents.

All of this other sociology 101 stuff is, for me, simply not going to work with this instance.

damikesc said...

There's something to be learned: an attempt to divide United a state. That's important and one that is unlikely to be duplicated in more "progressive" states.

Unknown said...

what with the evidence, witnesses and confession he should be on trial by next Monday. A verdict by Tuesday and, "if" found guilty executed Wednesday. The next picture we should see of him is his body rotting on the end of a rope feeding the crows. Don't give him the time to bask in his delusion of glory and encourage other mental defectives to follow his path.

If he is due any mercy then it will be dispensed on the other side. He deserves none from us.

Unknown said...

We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.
Inspirational

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